The executive greens

[beartrack]

I was just listening to The Villages radio station. The talk show host and the golf pro from Arnold Palmer Golf course were discussing the condition of the course's greens. The pro was saying that they were in pristine condition and that they were lightning fast because they have been double cut. I have a question that I hope that some of you more experienced golfers can answer for me.

Yesterday I played one of my favorite exec. course's, Amberwood. All I can say about that course is that it is a wonderful and challenging course except for the greens. They are in horrible condition. So bad in fact that even a short putt would be no more then a lucky stroke. I find that many of our exec. have similar problems albeit not as bad.

My question is: If they can keep the Champion course greens in such good condition, then why not the same conditions at the exec. course's?

[Regor]

Do you pay an "Extra" $30+ to play the executive courses? You do on the championship courses. Plus another $1000 priority per year.

[ajbrown]

I was just listening to The Villages radio station. The talk show host and the golf pro from Arnold Palmer Golf course were discussing the condition of the course's greens. The pro was saying that they were in pristine condition and that they were lightning fast because they have been double cut. I have a question that I hope that some of you more experienced golfers can answer for me.

Yesterday I played one of my favorite exec. course's, Amberwood. All I can say about that course is that it is a wonderful and challenging course except for the greens. They are in horrible condition. So bad in fact that even a short putt would be no more then a lucky stroke. I find that many of our exec. have similar problems albeit not as bad.

My question is: If they can keep the Champion course greens in such good condition, then why not the same conditions at the exec. course's?

I have not been on the execs lately and I have not played Palmer for a month+.

Lightning fast in TV means they are running at 8 ;)

I played Tierra and Havana (Kenya/Hemingway) this weekend. The greens are ..... ok... say 7 of 10, but pristine would be an overstatement ;). As I said, I have not been on Palmer for a bit, so cannot comment there...

Tierra's greens were better on average than Havana.

I have said before I think this winter has really affected the course conditions. Conditions will vary from course to course quite a bit exec or championship, so because Amberwood is having issues, does not mean that Pelican is...

I did however get to play in shorts with no stocking hat or turtle neck. I cannot remember how many times I said "WOW it is nice out". I do not remember once saying " I wish the greens were better" :)

[golf2140]

The pro at Palmer would say it's a beautiful day in the middle of a hurricane!!!!!

[Bogie Shooter]

The number of players on the exec's is far greater than on any of the champion courses. Add to that the sub freezing temps we have had....we are lucky to have grass!

[beartrack]

I did not ask my question to create a problem. Regor is telling us that if we pay more we would have better greens. Sorry regor but, I pay what is asked of me. The course conditions, in my humble opinion, are the result of poor maintenance.

Played at Baseline the other day and the greens were fine. I can't understand why the weather conditions would affect one green more then another. I also do not understand why it sometimes takes five shots to get there :crap2:

[Regor]

But don't you feel that if they had more money, they could spend more to keep the greens in better shape? I have almost always noted that if I pay $100 for a round of golf, the course is generally in better condition than say a course where I pay $15 or so.

If instead of free golf, I feel that The Villages could have much better course conditions if they charged an additional fee for golf on the executive courses.

[Halle]

But don't you feel that if they had more money, they could spend more to keep the greens in better shape? I have almost always noted that if I pay $100 for a round of golf, the course is generally in better condition than say a course where I pay $15 or so.

If instead of free golf, I feel that The Villages could have much better course conditions if they charged an additional fee for golf on the executive courses.

Please No additional cost. I would rather play for the cost of my monthly amenities fee then have an extra fee to have the courses in better condition. The courses work great for me and I love the "Free Golf".

:pepper2::pepper2::pepper2:

Double Par Halle

[BB14616]

Please don't assume that all the Championship courses are in good condition. It just is not so. I played Orange Blossom a couple of weeks ago and it was horrible. Their greens used to be the best around, since the course is mature, but no longer. I happened to play with a fellow who personally knows the crew chief from OneSource who maintains the course, and apparently the chief was told to cut back this year on the overseeding(the courses are overseeded with rye in the winter. The rye is cold hardy, and gives us green fairways, greens and teeboxes in the winter when the bermuda or whatever the undergrass is, goes dormant). You really can see it on OB - the greens and fairways look like they have the measles - little spots of rye on the dormant undergrass. Mallory is in okay condition - I'd give it a 6 out of 10. Hacienda is pretty good but there are some bare spots on the greens, Cane is pretty good - maybe an 8 out of 10. Palmer charges the premium greens fees and they put the potential home buyers out there so they're going to keep up the conditions of that golf course. If you notice, other greens on golf courses in the area are in better condition than those in The Villages, and they have all experienced the frost. As the guy from OneSource said, if they had been overseeded properly, the frost would not be much of a factor. I noticed that the practice putting green at Sarasota is in fine shape, so they must have overseeded it properly, and obviously it wasn't hurt by the frost.

I think OneSource cut back on the overseeding to save some money, and I hope to heck someone is keeping an eye on them.

Another maintenance issue I noticed the other day was out at Lopez. I don't remember which hole it was, but I was in a greenside bunker and the sand was completely filled with little pebbles, probably one about every 2-3 inches. That is a real no no. You can damage your club, and you can't hit the sand before the ball - you'll hit a pebble instead. They must have gotten a cheap load of sand somewhere. The other bunkers were fine, and I've never noticed that problem anywhere else in The Villages, but again, possibly another cost cutting measure. The Villages pays OneSource to maintain these courses, and if they do a crummy job, we need to either let them know, or else find another company that can do a better job.

I don't play Executive golf so I can't comment on the conditions, but this place is advertised as a golfing community. If they don't maintain the courses, our properties will lose value to communities that have nice courses. I'm a golfer, and frankly, if all the courses are going to be like this, I will be moving. I don't think it is a question of us paying more - I think it is a question of having OneSource do the job they are already paid to do. The sad thing is - if you let things go, it becomes harder to get them back in good shape. Kind of lilke maintaining your house - if you keep at it and do the upkeep its much easier than having to replace things down the road. Sorry if I seem grumpy - I love The Villages and the golf here has been wonderful, but I'm really disappointed in the conditions this year.

[schotzyb]

I was just listening to The Villages radio station. The talk show host and the golf pro from Arnold Palmer Golf course were discussing the condition of the course's greens. The pro was saying that they were in pristine condition and that they were lightning fast because they have been double cut. I have a question that I hope that some of you more experienced golfers can answer for me.

Yesterday I played one of my favorite exec. course's, Amberwood. All I can say about that course is that it is a wonderful and challenging course except for the greens. They are in horrible condition. So bad in fact that even a short putt would be no more then a lucky stroke. I find that many of our exec. have similar problems albeit not as bad.

My question is: If they can keep the Champion course greens in such good condition, then why not the same conditions at the exec. course's?


I would think that I am not as knowledgeable as a Club Pro but one thing for sure, my definition of pristine is not even close to his definition. Fast, yes, because the grass is so thin on the greens it is like putting on plain dirt. Whenever you see "black" thru the grass then the grass is too thin. These greens are anything but pristine. I play the various Championship courses 3 times weekly and these greens are worse than Hacienda Hills , Mallory Hill or Cane Garden.

[waynet]

I'm coming down in March to buy but not if the golf courses are as bad as they are. It is a golf community and with out good greens the place will be in trouble.This really should be looked into.I was down last October and the greens and golf courses were in really good shape. It's what got me to return. Renters not just buyers will be affected.

[beartrack]

waynet and bb14616 are making my point much better then I did. They basically said all the things that I was thinking when I started this thread. It was the great "free" golf that enticed us to buy here and I am sure the same could be said for thousands of other folks that live here or will live here in the future. This golf amenity is advertised and promoted by the developer. It is not something that was demanded by the residents. I think that the developer should be congratulated for the wonderful lifestyle here. All I am pointing out is one flaw. Simply stated, One Source or whoever is responsible for the maintenance of the greens, needs to do a better job. Our golf experience here and our property values depend on it.

[Thnonne]

The golf is free on the executive courses, they are challenging layouts with some beautiful scenery. The greens change from excellent to just okay, like championship courses. Our amenity fees pay for these courses and I feel we are getting our money's worth considering the price FREE! I live in a retirees paradise, many free (due to our amenity fee) activities. PLEASE DO NOT SUGGEST CHARGING FOR THESE ACTIVITIES!!!

[Whatever]

My thought is that there is less seeding per sq. ft. and may even be a cheaper variety of seed. Unless we make our gripes known to the powers that be, nothing will be done. I'm glad to see that word is getting out to prospective buyers as this may have an impact on the companys that do the course maintenance. (and that includes the execs). In turn the developer may find it useful to get more involved in this issue.

[GatbTester]

We all have specific complaints regarding the quality of grass, quality of seeding, etc. My area of specific complaint is in regards to the Ball Washers at almost every hole, they contain the filthiest, non soapy water you can imagine. It is terrible to use when cleaning your golf balls, as well as the lousy towels they use. Call them what you will. They lack the little touches that make big differences to me.

[golfnut]

if you have a complaint about something in TV go to the villages.net and post it, there is link at the bottom of the page called CIC (community improvement council), send them an email with your issue, complaining on this site will not solve a thing, just my .02, the greens on the executive courses stack up pretty well when compared to the championship courses in TV and courses outside TV, some are better than others and some need some work....gn

[schotzyb]

We all have specific complaints regarding the quality of grass, quality of seeding, etc. My area of specific complaint is in regards to the Ball Washers at almost every hole, they contain the filthiest, non soapy water you can imagine. It is terrible to use when cleaning your golf balls, as well as the lousy towels they use. Call them what you will. They lack the little touches that make big differences to me.

Every ball washer I attempted to use today at Palmer was bone dry.

[REH7380]

I remember a Senior Executive in a major 500 Corporation who belonged to a private country club. He also played golf at a semi private club and it became clear that the semi private club had better greens and fairways than the very high priced private club. He told me one day that he told the green superintendent that (a) either he was not getting enough funds to have a good course or (b) he did not know how to do the job. Which was it?
This could relate to the Executive courses problems that are being raised. The question is "which is it"? I would suspect it is a little mixture of both since some meet good standards and some don't..
Maybe someone can help me as I honestly don't know the answer.Does some of the amenity fees paid go toward golf maintenance?:read:

[ricthemic]

Please don't assume that all the Championship courses are in good condition. It just is not so. I played Orange Blossom a couple of weeks ago and it was horrible. Their greens used to be the best around, since the course is mature, but no longer. I happened to play with a fellow who personally knows the crew chief from OneSource who maintains the course, and apparently the chief was told to cut back this year on the overseeding(the courses are overseeded with rye in the winter. The rye is cold hardy, and gives us green fairways, greens and teeboxes in the winter when the bermuda or whatever the undergrass is, goes dormant). You really can see it on OB - the greens and fairways look like they have the measles - little spots of rye on the dormant undergrass. Mallory is in okay condition - I'd give it a 6 out of 10. Hacienda is pretty good but there are some bare spots on the greens, Cane is pretty good - maybe an 8 out of 10. Palmer charges the premium greens fees and they put the potential home buyers out there so they're going to keep up the conditions of that golf course. If you notice, other greens on golf courses in the area are in better condition than those in The Villages, and they have all experienced the frost. As the guy from OneSource said, if they had been overseeded properly, the frost would not be much of a factor. I noticed that the practice putting green at Sarasota is in fine shape, so they must have overseeded it properly, and obviously it wasn't hurt by the frost.

I think OneSource cut back on the overseeding to save some money, and I hope to heck someone is keeping an eye on them.

Another maintenance issue I noticed the other day was out at Lopez. I don't remember which hole it was, but I was in a greenside bunker and the sand was completely filled with little pebbles, probably one about every 2-3 inches. That is a real no no. You can damage your club, and you can't hit the sand before the ball - you'll hit a pebble instead. They must have gotten a cheap load of sand somewhere. The other bunkers were fine, and I've never noticed that problem anywhere else in The Villages, but again, possibly another cost cutting measure. The Villages pays OneSource to maintain these courses, and if they do a crummy job, we need to either let them know, or else find another company that can do a better job.

I don't play Executive golf so I can't comment on the conditions, but this place is advertised as a golfing community. If they don't maintain the courses, our properties will lose value to communities that have nice courses. I'm a golfer, and frankly, if all the courses are going to be like this, I will be moving. I don't think it is a question of us paying more - I think it is a question of having OneSource do the job they are already paid to do. The sad thing is - if you let things go, it becomes harder to get them back in good shape. Kind of lilke maintaining your house - if you keep at it and do the upkeep its much easier than having to replace things down the road. Sorry if I seem grumpy - I love The Villages and the golf here has been wonderful, but I'm really disappointed in the conditions this year.

Excellent Post. I played OB for the first time two weeks ago and do not care if I ever play there again. The greens were horrible. Played Palmer today. Greens are very fast due to lack of grass. They are very green like the tees due apparently from green paint.
What is weird is some exec's like saddlebrook and el santiago, as well as their practice greens have great greens while other exec's like Belmont, Amberwood etc suck.
We are new and have guest coming down cause we raved about the place (which everything but the greens is true) but will be totally embarrassed by these greens. Many villages report good greens on courses outside of the villages. They had the same weather so what happened? To me, this is an extremely important issue.

[Bogie Shooter]

Every ball washer I attempted to use today at Palmer was bone dry.
What did the club Pro say when you told him about your concern?

[schotzyb]

Couldn't find him; must have been at the radio station talking about his "pristine" greens.

[soonfl]

Is there anyway that a group could be formed (or maybe it exist) to have a owner / CDD members inspect and report conditions ( check lists / pictures) to give the developer objective feedback. A "caretakers club" perhaps?

I have know idea how funds are allocated for maintenance and renovation.
Can some one fill me in.

Is each CDD responsible for its own courses?
Have any of the older courses been renovated?
Is there a reserve set up to handle extraordinary problems( hurricane, tornado).

I believe that we all understand that seeding ,watering and fertilizer errors occur and that weather is sometime difficult. But we would like some assurance that problems have been identified and solutions are not left to luck , optimism and good intentions.

[golfnut]

I play at least one different course outside TV every week and play TV courses the other 6 days, IMO (remember it's MHO) the courses in TV are equal or better than any other course within the 20 miles we travel. IMO if you're not happy with the courses here you might want to get while the gettins good, for me I'M HERE FOR THE DURATION.....GN

[soonfl]

I was just trying to be constructive.

[golfnut]

i'm not upset at all, sorry if it came off that way....gn

[BB14616]

Excellent Post. I played OB for the first time two weeks ago and do not care if I ever play there again. The greens were horrible. Played Palmer today. Greens are very fast due to lack of grass. They are very green like the tees due apparently from green paint.
What is weird is some exec's like saddlebrook and el santiago, as well as their practice greens have great greens while other exec's like Belmont, Amberwood etc suck.
We are new and have guest coming down cause we raved about the place (which everything but the greens is true) but will be totally embarrassed by these greens. Many villages report good greens on courses outside of the villages. They had the same weather so what happened? To me, this is an extremely important issue.

It is embarrasing when friends come. And like you said, even within our own community, some courses are good and others aren't, and they all experienced the weather conditions. In the past, we might have had one course that was not good. For example, the past few years Cane Garden was dry and hard, so we used to play Orange Blossum and Tierra because the greens were so terrific. But this season, it seems like about half the (Championship) courses have poor conditions, and it isn't even just the greens. The fairways are clumpy so you have patches of grass, then patches with no grass, so it is like playing out of a divot if your ball happens to land in the no grass area. I've never seen it like that here. I imagine the heat and rain we've had the past week will help things regenerate, but its been about 2 months of crap conditions, and here we are paying top dollar in greens fees.

I like soonFL's idea of forming a committee to report to the CDD on maintenance issues with the Executive and Championship courses, if they don't have one already. The question I ask myself, is even if the CDD does have a committee and is aware of the conditions, will they do anything, particularly if it involves spending more money? With so many people here this time of year, and the shortage of tee times, they seem to have no trouble filling the time slots, so is there an incentive for them to make the golf course conditions better?

[beartrack]

Sorry to say golfnut but, you did sound a bit angry. Look, I'm a fairly new resident here and I love this place and your suggestion that I "get" if I have a reasonable comment about the maintenance of the greens is a little unfair. The Villages affords us the best retirement lifestyle in the USA, that said however, every once in a while a little flaw raises it's ugly head ( have you been reading this website? ) It is, in my opinion, the right thing to do is, to open a discussion on something that bothers you and that you feel also affects your friends and neighbors, not to mention your property value. What I learned from this discussion so far, and I have you to thank for it is, how to voice my concerns on The Villages.net. I will take your advice and post my comments there. In closing, I played Oakley yesterday and Amberwood the day before and in my opinion the greens on those to courses should be an embarassment to whomever is responsible for their mantenance.

[REH7380]

Oh Boy this will probably get me some "bad notes" but I feel it is right to raise it as a question. If the Golf Division were hiring personnel who felt free to raise their voices we would probably not be facing these critical points. If the golf division established a program of feedback and listened then the problems would not exist. It is logical to believe that complaints are not being brought forward, or someone is "turning their back" to the complaints as they either lack the knowledge as to how to fix the problems, or are not getting the funds to do the work or concerned about their jobs if they speak up? There are enough complaints to set the stage there is something wrong. The question is why they are not being addressed?:faint:

[saratogaman]

Recently, I've played Turtle Mound, Saddlebrook & Heron -- all greens were terrible! Putts bounce all over the place on the rough surface.

[villages07]

I'm not a good enough golfer to understand the fine nuances of good greens vs acceptable greens. Playing primarily the exec courses, I certainly have noticed an inconsistent quality in how they play.

Anyway, one clarification to note here for those who aren't aware. The championship courses are owned by the developer and he/his businesses determine the budget and priorities for maintenance.

The executive courses are supported by our amenity fees. Some of these courses are owned by the central CDD but many are still owned by the developer who gets a portion of the amenity fee for operation and maintenance.

Golfthevillages.com website has a "contact us" link where you can send in written comments about champ/exec/tee times, etc. Or you can call the golf division offices and register your concerns. Let 'em know about the extensive discussion here on TOTV, including comments from prospective buyers that golf conditions could affect their buying decision.

[chuckster]

I agree, instead of complaining here call t-time office at 750-4558 and find out who will listen to your issues..............Go to the source.

[schotzyb]

I have recently voiced my concerns about the conditions of the Championship courses via golfthevillages.com but have yet to receive a response. But on the other hand, is this not a discussion forum where both the pros and cons on a subject can be discussed? It appears that if you do not agree with some members opinions then you are labeled a complainer or worse yet told to "get out now". How friendly is that?

[tony]

Please continue to post your discussion points here. This is a forum for that.

I don't think anybody is tell you to get out of the forum.

[beartrack]

There are some of us that are a little thin skinned and I do place myself in that category. That is why I do not often post. I love an intelligent mannerly debate of issues that affect all of us but, unfortunately, some folks can not respond without sarcasm or anger when they disagree with someone over an issue. Passion is good, rudeness is not.

As you can tell from some of the responses here, the exec. greens could certainly be better maintained. Why don't all of us that agree, email the CIC and the powers that be in the golf office. I already have and an waiting for their responce.

Thank you Tony

[Allen]

I have recently voiced my concerns about the conditions of the Championship courses via golfthevillages.com but have yet to receive a response. But on the other hand, is this not a discussion forum where both the pros and cons on a subject can be discussed? It appears that if you do not agree with some members opinions then you are labeled a complainer or worse...

As one who has yet to buy in TV, I can say that the conditions of the golf courses as well as other amenities is very important to our decision to locate there. I agree that this forum is very important in terms of raising valid issues that are of concern and it provides very valuable insight. It is an excellent place to exchange ideas and information. Sometimes, however, the written word can be misinterpreted, or the writer may not concisely communicate what they really mean to say due to the limitations of putting things in writing quickly. Writing is just cumbersome and there is no nuance in terms of voice inflection or body language, etc. I myself have looked back at some of my posts and see how they may not really communicate what I meant, or could easily be misunderstood. So, I am hoping we can all try to "cut each other a little slack" and keep our focus on helping TV to be such a great place to live... that includes raising issues at times that may ruffle a few feathers.

Finally, with all the golfers in TV this thread seems to have generated a lot of interest and I hope we will all be motivated to voice our concerns directly to those who can and should fix whatever issue is at hand as well as continuing to post here. With that in mind, I am wondering why a Topic Category such as "All About Golf" is not on the Forum. It would not necessarily be just for "complaints and issues"... I can see it being like most other topics where people comment, complement, complain, ask questions, give advice, etc. From there, other real world associations might develop ranging from groups organized to play golf to those interested in keeping the pressure on in terms of course quality. Who knows someone might even organize something and call it the TEE Party Movement! :laugh:

Don't let this change the subject, but how does one request that a topic be added to the forum such as "All About Golf"? Do we just ask the moderators, or would it be best to start a thread to see if the is enough interest? If this has been done before, please accept my apology... I'm relatively new to this.

[golfnut]

lots of great ideas here, bear and allen and others, once again i did not intend to be angry or sarcastic, this subject comes up over and over, i will tell you again I have played no less than 25 courses outside TV in the last 6 months and i find our courses overall are in better condition, that does no mean we don't have some courses that need attention here or there, i have been here five years and have not seen any degredation in the courses, IMHO they are probably a little better now, there will always be issues with one course or another, it's the same in TV and outside TV, now just don't ask me to explain it....gn

[beartrack]

Allen, Great post. Thank you. I am eager to sign up for the TEE PARTY :wave:

[Bogie Shooter]

I agree, instead of complaining here call t-time office at 750-4558 and find out who will listen to your issues..............Go to the source.
You will get closer to the source by calling Country Club Administration 750-4558, for the championship. They in turn can direct you to someone for the execs.

[Pturner]

It might also be helpful to provide feedback to the Amenity Authority Committee (AAC). Here's a link:

http://www.districtgov.org/aac/aac.aspx

The top link on from that page provides a link to "email all ACC Members". (Links are also provided to email individual ACC members separately.)

The Village Center Community Development District (CDD) '09-'10 budget includes approx. $1 million for Golf Management Services, while the Sumpter Landing CDD includes approx. $817K for same. District 1-10 budgets include various line items for utilities, irrigation, landscaping maintenance, etc. These line items do not specify whether they include golf course expenses.

Here's a link to the annual CDD budgets:
http://www.districtgov.org/departments/budget/annualbudgets.aspx

[zcaveman]

Just my opinion but if you consider the amount of play that the executive courses get and the weather conditions in the past month, I think you can understand why the greens are in such bad shapes.

Some of the greens are in better shape than others and I would expect that it is because of the different weather conditions. I understand that there is only an 11 mile difference from end to end but some areas get more rain, frost, and wind then the other areas. If you check the frost delays on channel 2 in the morning there is a one to three hour frost delay between the different championship courses and their executive counterparts. I would have figured that they would all have the same delay but Lopez will open at 8 and Palmer will open at 9 and Tierra Del Sol at 9:30. This means that the executive courses governed by Lopez course will get walked on earlier and damage the greens more.

Last Wednesday, Walnut Grove, Amberwood, Briarwood and Oakley were on a 8:30 delay but the Ladies day was still scheduled for 7:45 at Briarwood. Go figure.

Also, not to defend the executive courses but I do not think the championship courses get as much play as the executive courses anyway so they should be more pristine.

[REH7380]

There should be consistency between all courses and if that is not happening then there is a communication and management problem. We use to say that in the north it is "weather" and in the south it is "critters". That may have changed a little and brought some "weather" into the mix this year. Having said this if the staff on hand cannot handle the problems then Golf Management should bring in better professionals to consult on the problems.
And if they can't handle it they should communicate that to the players.
(At one time I managed a Pro Shop for one of the golf courses of the Mariott Corporation and if we had a problem with greens or fairway the greens Superintendent called in help to understand why and what it would take to fix the problem.)
Because of the number of complaints I don't understand why Golf Mgt. does not communicate better with the players. If the green superintendents of the various courses do not understand "why" then an expert should be called in for help and the players should be told of the actions in place or the reason it cannot be corrected. :read:

[quill]

I recently spoke to someone responsible for maintenance and asked how often the holes were changed on the execs. He stated every 2 days. I have played on execs that were nothing but sand around the hole because of all the play. While the rest of the green was fine. I said I thought they needed to be changed daily, fell on deaf ears. Also I have been told by several people including a supervisor at Cain that each Championship is responsible for three execs. That is why there should be no difference, between the quality of the courses. The big selling point for us as we just moved here in Dec. was the fact that while driving around we were unable to tell the difference in the courses, exec vs championship. Generally execs are cheesy at best, not here. We had friends down from Atlanta 3 weeks ago and the over seed on the Champion was an embarrassment. I do not believe it was the weather because what was there was growing. It was a poor over seed. I have always thought that it is the little things that make a difference in a golf course. Filling ball washers, grooming around sand traps, you name it, it is the small stuff and if that is not getting done the big stuff never does. There is a palm tree that is still alive lying on it's side on the back of Jackaranda. All it needs is to be righted for it to live. I mentioned it to the Marshall and he said he would tell them. I am rambling but the point is, without feed back nothing ever changes. Politely suggest that things are not up to par... For those of you that have been here before with the snowbirds are these the conditions we should expect? Also unverified I heard that the courses here get 17000 rounds of golf a day, Any ideas of the validity of that. Anyway regardless of who is paying, in some form the golf courses are a major key to this place. The more feedback both positive and negative will make this place better.

[BB14616]

I've sent an email to golfthevillages.com and have not yet received a reply. This morning I also sent one to the amenities committee at AACboard@districtgov.org <AACboard@districtgov.org>

We'll see what happens. If we can find a good source to send our complaints to, and enough people follow through and voice their concerns, at least we know the problem is out there, in the open, and we can see how responsive they will be. At the very least, there obviously needs to be better communication as REH7380 said.

If anyone finds the person or committee who will respond, please let the rest of us know..Thanks!

[Kelsie52]

I did send an e-mail to golfthevillages and stated that I was about to purchase a home but was alarmed about some complaints I have been hearing about the state of the greens and that --to me was a reflection on the possible reduction in care taken to the entire property and received this reply today "

"we haven�t received much negative feedback from our players. I will tell you that I�ve been here 10 years, and this by far has been our worst winter, weather wise! We�ve had 16 days of frost, and probably a couple more coming this week. As you can imagine this is not conducive to growing grass, it�s affected everything from landscape to the residents yards themselves. Couple this with the amount of play we get in the winter and it does present some challenges. Consequently the greens may not be as good as they normally are, but I assure you this has nothing to do with any �decline in care of the community�. What makes The Villages so unique is via the amenities fees, it is set-up to ensure the community will always have proper funding to be maintained to a high standard."

Seems to me to be a fair response ....

[BB14616]

I did send an e-mail to golfthevillages and stated that I was about to purchase a home but was alarmed about some complaints I have been hearing about the state of the greens and that --to me was a reflection on the possible reduction in care taken to the entire property and received this reply today "

"we haven�t received much negative feedback from our players. I will tell you that I�ve been here 10 years, and this by far has been our worst winter, weather wise! We�ve had 16 days of frost, and probably a couple more coming this week. As you can imagine this is not conducive to growing grass, ....Seems to me to be a fair response ....



I respectfully disagree. True, we've had a lot of frost, but rye grass is not affected by frost, and had they overseeded properly, the frost shouldn't have been an issue. We've had plenty of frosts other years as well, and nowhere near the poor conditions on fairways and greens. Also, look at the greens where there aren't any problems - for example the putting green at Sarasota, and greens at nearby golf courses such as Del Webb. They all experienced the bad winter weather and heavy play, and those greens are excellent. Logic tells me that the weather was not the problem. I could see if you want to blame a few bare spots on some of the greens on the weather, but using Orange Blossom as an example, there is more going on than the weather. And to say they haven't received much negative feedback from the players, is just untrue. Must be they're not listening to the players.

[Kelsie52]

I am not living here --YET--- but as I stated before hopefully by the end of the year -so I have not seen any of the courses since last November.

The response came from Country Club operations

And by the way --they say they have never heard of Talkofthevillages web site !!!!:1rotfl:

[waynet]

I will be there March 1st to see for myself. If the courses are in bad shape and I don't get an explaination that is reasonable I will not be puchasing a place there. My agent will also hear this. I do know that TV is a great place but I am a golfer,that's why I want to buy there. Without well kept golf courses it will lose alot of it's attraction.

[iaudit]

PLEASE - if you are dissatisfied with condition of the greens, stop making reservations at the executive courses, especially Yankee Clipper, Bogart, Bacall and Pelican, my favorites.

Thanks a bunch for the extra tee times.

[rockaway]

I agree that the greens on both the championship and exec's can

use better maintenance.

But as i see it if golfers would fix there ball marks and would pick up

there feet so there spikes don't wreck the grass around the holes the

conditions would be much better.

[Pturner]

I respectfully disagree. True, we've had a lot of frost, but rye grass is not affected by frost, and had they overseeded properly, the frost shouldn't have been an issue. We've had plenty of frosts other years as well, and nowhere near the poor conditions on fairways and greens. Also, look at the greens where there aren't any problems - for example the putting green at Sarasota, and greens at nearby golf courses such as Del Webb. They all experienced the bad winter weather and heavy play, and those greens are excellent. Logic tells me that the weather was not the problem. I could see if you want to blame a few bare spots on some of the greens on the weather, but using Orange Blossom as an example, there is more going on than the weather. And to say they haven't received much negative feedback from the players, is just untrue. Must be they're not listening to the players.

According to numerous sources (google search), frost can affect rye grass. Here in Atlanta, dh and I have a golf membership that includes privileges at 18 courses. All are over seeded with winter rye. All seemed affected by sustained periods of frost; some more than others. On individual courses, some holes are in terrible shape and some are in very good shape. Same course manager, same course.

When I spoke with logic, I thought she told me that weather was a significant factor. She also said that slope, amount and time of day of sunlight vs. shade and other factors conspire to affect different courses and different areas of the same course. She even confided that, in the worse economic downturn since the Big One, management has had to curtail expenses.

For some reason, she didn't tell me whether the "powers that be" are indifferent, whether they are balancing a host of challenges and priorities, or whether someone made an "untrue" statement about the relative amount of feedback he or she was aware of.

She did say, "PT, think about it. To whom would you rather open your door-- the bearer of honey or vinegar?"

If I understood logic correctly, I thought she made some good points.

[Bogie Shooter]

I received the letter today regarding the 2010 Villages Resident Survey.
This is the opportunity for you who have concerns for your voice to be heard.

[quill]

I just got off the phone with 2 of the championship courses and they were very nice and informative. They welcome feed back. Both negative and positive. The one common thing I have seen here in TV is that agencies want (in my experience) to make things better. Folks give feed back, feed back feed back. If the ball washers are empty tell someone, if the greens are sandy say something as I did. They can only fix something they know about. And I think the over seed is bad, but I was just told that the weather can play on how it grows in even when it is done correctly. One course gets the correct temp and rain while another does not, so poor over seed. I plan on calling and talking to the other course managers and getting more opinions. My old philosophy in the military was I did not believe anything I was told unless I got at least 2 out 3 people saying the same thing. For those thinking of moving here all I can say is that I believe that they are trying to do the right thing.

[quill]

I also said in an earlier post that I had heard that the holes were changed every two days on the execs. Well that is still to be determined. I have gotten different answers and still need to get it resolved. There are some greens it could stand to be changed twice a day.

[golfnut]

quill, just curious, why would you change the holes twice a day...gn

[BB14616]

I just got off the phone with 2 of the championship courses and they were very nice and informative. They welcome feed back. Both negative and positive. The one common thing I have seen here in TV is that agencies want (in my experience) to make things better. Folks give feed back, feed back feed back. If the ball washers are empty tell someone, if the greens are sandy say something as I did. They can only fix something they know about. And I think the over seed is bad, but I was just told that the weather can play on how it grows in even when it is done correctly. One course gets the correct temp and rain while another does not, so poor over seed. I plan on calling and talking to the other course managers and getting more opinions. My old philosophy in the military was I did not believe anything I was told unless I got at least 2 out 3 people saying the same thing. For those thinking of moving here all I can say is that I believe that they are trying to do the right thing.

Thanks for the info. I agree that the people working at the courses are great. I do wonder, at times, if they are just giving us the "vanilla version" as the Mallory pro that was mentioned in a previous post. But generally I think they want the conditions to be as good as they can be, and they will work to fix things within their control, such as ball washers, etc.

The overseeding is another ball of wax in my mind. It is my understanding that the maintenance company hired by the Developer controls the overseeding, and as Pturner implied, perhaps there is some cost cutting going on. I had heard from several sources that OneSource cut back on the amount of rye grass seed that was used on the overseeding of Orange blossom fr example. To me that sounds like a cost cutting maneuver. Did they do that at other courses? The fairways of most of the courses in the Villages right now are pretty ratty. Was it environmental conditions affecting growth or cost cutbacks in the amount of seed put down? With all the money the developer makes in greens fees, I have a hard time believing that there isn't enough money available to keep the courses in good condition. Then again, maybe they tried cutting costs not realizing the winter conditions would be so bad, and have learned from their experience and will do things differently next year, by allocating more money into their golf course maintenance fund.

I would just like to hear managment say "yes, there is a problem, this is what caused it, this is what we will do to make things better next year." At ths point we are just guessing. Of course, temperature, watering, etc. will affect certain holes and certain courses up to a point. But the conditions have been fairly similiar this winter in the Villages/Lady Lake area. I could see that few holes here and there would be bad, but with so many courses bad in The Villages, and courses good outside the Villages, it makes one wonder why there are such drastic differences.

Of course, with March just around the corner, and the temperatures warming up, along with the rain, in a few weeks the courses should be looking a lot better. They can improve pretty quickly with certain conditions in place. Let's keep our fingers crossed.:laugh:

[quill]

Golfnut if the green is getting so much play that the area around the hole literally has no grass left around it then it is probably time to move the hole. It is no fun to golf on that and probably not good for the green. It has happened more than once to me in the last few weeks. The same applies to tee boxes. It is not any fun to tee off in an area that no longer has grass. Although there is some leeway as to where one places there ball on the tee box. As to whether they are trying to save money with the over seed, I can see no benefit from that and so far have no indication from anyone I have talked about that this occurred. Think about it the short term potential gain ($) versus the long term loss of sales and house value loss. Does not make much sense at all. I would prefer to think we had a very bad year with the fairways. I do, however as I have said before, think there can be something done about the greens, including moving the hole more often. Slamming the courses in a place(The Villages) that seems to go out of their way to please is a little harsh in my opinion. Everyone is welcome to their opinion but if you want something fixed then give feed back and not always negative. This is not intended as a lecture or a slam on anyone here. I just think we owe it to ourselves to give feedback if we want something fixed.

[Bogie Shooter]

I just got off the phone with 2 of the championship courses and they were very nice and informative. They welcome feed back. Both negative and positive. The one common thing I have seen here in TV is that agencies want (in my experience) to make things better. Folks give feed back, feed back feed back. If the ball washers are empty tell someone, if the greens are sandy say something as I did. They can only fix something they know about. And I think the over seed is bad, but I was just told that the weather can play on how it grows in even when it is done correctly. One course gets the correct temp and rain while another does not, so poor over seed. I plan on calling and talking to the other course managers and getting more opinions. My old philosophy in the military was I did not believe anything I was told unless I got at least 2 out 3 people saying the same thing. For those thinking of moving here all I can say is that I believe that they are trying to do the right thing.
You have done well. You got off your duff and actually made some phone calls rather than just rant on this thread. Giving course management the opportunity to respond to your concerns......and then verifying the information is a good idea. I commend you for your effort......

[Pturner]

Thanks for the info. I agree that the people working at the courses are great. I do wonder, at times, if they are just giving us the "vanilla version" as the Mallory pro that was mentioned in a previous post. But generally I think they want the conditions to be as good as they can be, and they will work to fix things within their control, such as ball washers, etc.

The overseeding is another ball of wax in my mind. It is my understanding that the maintenance company hired by the Developer controls the overseeding, and as Pturner implied, perhaps there is some cost cutting going on. I had heard from several sources that OneSource cut back on the amount of rye grass seed that was used on the overseeding of Orange blossom fr example. To me that sounds like a cost cutting maneuver. Did they do that at other courses? The fairways of most of the courses in the Villages right now are pretty ratty. Was it environmental conditions affecting growth or cost cutbacks in the amount of seed put down? With all the money the developer makes in greens fees, I have a hard time believing that there isn't enough money available to keep the courses in good condition. Then again, maybe they tried cutting costs not realizing the winter conditions would be so bad, and have learned from their experience and will do things differently next year, by allocating more money into their golf course maintenance fund.

I would just like to hear managment say "yes, there is a problem, this is what caused it, this is what we will do to make things better next year." At ths point we are just guessing. Of course, temperature, watering, etc. will affect certain holes and certain courses up to a point. But the conditions have been fairly similiar this winter in the Villages/Lady Lake area. I could see that few holes here and there would be bad, but with so many courses bad in The Villages, and courses good outside the Villages, it makes one wonder why there are such drastic differences.

Of course, with March just around the corner, and the temperatures warming up, along with the rain, in a few weeks the courses should be looking a lot better. They can improve pretty quickly with certain conditions in place. Let's keep our fingers crossed.:laugh:

Oops, you are right, BB. I did imply that, but didn't mean to. I have no such information.

[golfnut]

i was going to post a long response but here is the abbreviated version, i love TV courses and they are as good if not better than any courses around, just my .02...gn

[Pturner]

i was going to post a long respone but here is the abbreviated version, i love TV courses and they are as good if not better than any courses around, just my .02...gn

I guess your long version would have been your dime. :laugh:

[golfnut]

pt ???...gn

[Pturner]

pt ???...gn

Well, sometimes my humor falls flat.

[golfnut]

i hear ya, and i know you don't want to hear the .25 answer...gn

[Pturner]

Not unless it comes with a cup of coffee.:mornincoffee:

Sorry, hijack over and out.

[beartrack]

I would just like to make a point here. I do not believe that my entire thread has been hi-jacked but, I would remind you all that my original concern is about the condition of the greens on the executive courses. Not the layouts or the fairways or the ballwashers or anything else. Just the greens. I have never played a champion course here, as my ability is not at the championship level. The thing that drew me to The Villages is the huge selection of executive courses and the much advertised phrase " Free Golf Forever " and with my own cart for Petes sake. It doesn't get better then that but, the truth be told, and weather aside, somebody has goofed as to the condition of these greens. Golfnut states that our greens are the best around. I say that is not so and in the good spirit in which it is intended, I invite him/her to join me for a round at Baseline, and lets make a comparison on the condition of the greens. My treat.

[BB14616]

I would just like to make a point here. I do not believe that my entire thread has been hi-jacked but, I would remind you all that my original concern is about the condition of the greens on the executive courses. Not the layouts or the fairways or the ballwashers or anything else. Just the greens. I have never played a champion course here, as my ability is not at the championship level. The thing that drew me to The Villages is the huge selection of executive courses and the much advertised phrase " Free Golf Forever " and with my own cart for Petes sake. It doesn't get better then that but, the truth be told, and weather aside, somebody has goofed as to the condition of these greens. Golfnut states that our greens are the best around. I say that is not so and in the good spirit in which it is intended, I invite him/her to join me for a round at Baseline, and lets make a comparison on the condition of the greens. My treat.

Sorry beartrack. Not to take anything away from your original post - I've been ranting about Championship greens because that is what I play, and you are correct - what little I played the Exec. courses, earlier in the year, the conditions were good on some courses, but poor on others. I do think people need to get offcampus and see and play other golf courses before they compare our courses to those outside.

I contacted the District Board (on golfthevillages.com) a few days ago and the email went out to all the members, asking them who to contact regarding golf course conditions. Most of the members got back to me and told me to contact Country Club Administration at 753-3396 and they would be able to point me in the right direction. One member told me to contact Property Management in Southern Trace. He said the Championship Courses are a private business and the AAC has no jurisdiction there. I expect that would apply to the executive courses as well.

[quill]

I was not trying to hijack your thread, my comments were meant as constructive for both us and course management. As I stated the execs are run by the championships. They all are divide up and I believe each has at least 3 execs to manage. So to answer your question is the quality of maintenance of the exec green should be the same as the championship greens. Now there are other variables that are out of the maintenance guys hands and one of the big ones I believe is the amount of play. And as I have tried to point out if anyone has a problem with a course then take the time to find out which championship manages the exec you are on and give them feed back. This is not directed at anyone, but often it is earlier to complain on a forum than to actually make the effort to contact the individual responsible and get it fixed. This is not a phenomenon unique to this forum, it happens on other I frequent. But I do see it all the time here, especially in regards to restaurants. Feed back is the answer. If it falls on deaf ears then by all means, especially with restaurants, slam away because I do not want to waste my money there. But with the golf courses we need to get things fixed. As I think I said the courses and the people are the reasons we moved here. Thanks for your time

[BB14616]

I was not trying to hijack your thread, my comments were meant as constructive for both us and course management. As I stated the execs are run by the championships. They all are divide up and I believe each has at least 3 execs to manage. So to answer your question is the quality of maintenance of the exec green should be the same as the championship greens. Now there are other variables that are out of the maintenance guys hands and one of the big ones I believe is the amount of play. And as I have tried to point out if anyone has a problem with a course then take the time to find out which championship manages the exec you are on and give them feed back. This is not directed at anyone, but often it is earlier to complain on a forum than to actually make the effort to contact the individual responsible and get it fixed. This is not a phenomenon unique to this forum, it happens on other I frequent. But I do see it all the time here, especially in regards to restaurants. Feed back is the answer. If it falls on deaf ears then by all means, especially with restaurants, slam away because I do not want to waste my money there. But with the golf courses we need to get things fixed. As I think I said the courses and the people are the reasons we moved here. Thanks for your time

You are right on the mark with your comment about letting the courses know directly, as opposed to just complaining on a forum.

I did complain to Mallory one day, and all I got back was the answer that it was the weather this winter. As I've mentioned previously, based on conditions throughout the LadyLake area, and the better condition of a number of the courses outside The Villages, I suspect it is more than the weather, so I've elected to "go to the next level". I truly hope we can get some answers and if enough people let them know we are unhappy, it will certainly give them incentive, if they don't have it already, to make things better this upcoming year.

But the key is people must let management know their concerns. I as given this number to call: 753-3396 and ask for Mr. Basso, who is the Golf Operations Manager for the Villages. He works closely with each individual golf course facility manager. I've tried a couple times and he's out in the field but will keep trying. I urge others to do the same. Let's get our concerns out there.

[dillywho]

:agree:The number of players on the exec's is far greater than on any of the champion courses. Add to that the sub freezing temps we have had....we are lucky to have grass!

Besides, remember, you could be playing in the snow someplace else.

[REH7380]

I believe they do not have the talent to support the courses and this is witnessed by the number of complaints. If they had people in charge to oversee the courses with management and technical experience these problems should not exist. I don't profess to be real knowledgable in course maintenance but it is logical to believe that if there is high wind, dry greens,etc. the holes should be changed at least every day to prevent the grass around them being killed or harmed.
Again, it falls back on 1. Good course maintenance, 2. Good communications with players 3. funding to keep the course in good condition. Since The Villages use golf as a significant reason to buy then it is sort of lacking in sincerity to allow the main draw to become an issue with residents/players.
Since a private company is responsible for golf activities I would hope the
developer and the other internal organizations are coming down on the Golf Mgt Co. to ensure they keep up acceptable standards. :ohdear:

[dillywho]

But don't you feel that if they had more money, they could spend more to keep the greens in better shape? I have almost always noted that if I pay $100 for a round of golf, the course is generally in better condition than say a course where I pay $15 or so.

If instead of free golf, I feel that The Villages could have much better course conditions if they charged an additional fee for golf on the executive courses.

With the cost of everything else rising, it's nice to have something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Not all of us have big retirement dollars and that is what the original intent of establishing this community was in the first place....to allow more people the opportunity to enjoy their remaining days/years after working so hard and so long. We are comfortable, but far from rich and do have to budget. Sorry, I don't mean for this post to sound tacky, but there is supposed to be something for everyone here.

[beartrack]

For the past week or so since I started this thread, and taking the advice of some of the posters here, I have been making phone calls and sending email in an effort to discover who or what entity is responsible for the maintenance of the greens on the executive courses.

Through Thevillages.net golf site I finally got through to what I am convinced is the correct place to answer my concerns. This morning I recieved a phone call from Todd Basso, who introduced himself as the superintendant of golf course mantenance for for The Villages Executive golf courses. He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county.

He offered no excuses, just apologies for the lack of proper condition of the greens. He also explained that there are several maintenance companys with contracts to do specific courses in the villages and it appears to him that some companys are doing a better job then others. While he refused to use the unusual weather this year as an excuse, he did state that they were totaly unprepared to cope with it and that would never be the case again. He also stated that he is putting a process in place to rehabilitate our greens and that they will be back to great condition as soon as possible.

Todd also said he himself plays Baseline and there is no question that their greens are better then ours, and by next year ours will be just as good.

I would like to thank Todd Basso for his very sincere and informative phone call and I would also thank TOTV posters for helping me to get my concerns answered. I do hope that as a result of our efforts we will all be able to enjoy better golf.

By the way, told also stated to never hesitate to notify him of any concerns you may have about the executive courses. His job is answer our concerns and make the golf experience better for everyone.

[waynet]

Beartrack thank you very much for your due diligence.

[Pturner]

For the past week or so since I started this thread, and taking the advice of some of the posters here, I have been making phone calls and sending email in an effort to discover who or what entity is responsible for the maintenance of the greens on the executive courses.

Through Thevillages.net golf site I finally got through to what I am convinced is the correct place to answer my concerns. This morning I recieved a phone call from Todd Basso, who introduced himself as the superintendant of golf course mantenance for for The Villages Executive golf courses. He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county.

He offered no excuses, just apologies for the lack of proper condition of the greens. He also explained that there are several maintenance companys with contracts to do specific courses in the villages and it appears to him that some companys are doing a better job then others. While he refused to use the unusual weather this year as an excuse, he did state that they were totaly unprepared to cope with it and that would never be the case again. He also stated that he is putting a process in place to rehabilitate our greens and that they will be back to great condition as soon as possible.

Todd also said he himself plays Baseline and there is no question that their greens are better then ours, and by next year ours will be just as good.

I would like to thank Todd Basso for his very sincere and informative phone call and I would also thank TOTV posters for helping me to get my concerns answered. I do hope that as a result of our efforts we will all be able to enjoy better golf.

By the way, told also stated to never hesitate to notify him of any concerns you may have about the executive courses. His job is answer our concerns and make the golf experience better for everyone.

Excellent job, Bear

:thumbup::clap2:

Thanks for your efforts and keeping everyone "posted".

[BB14616]

For the past week or so since I started this thread, and taking the advice of some of the posters here, I have been making phone calls and sending email in an effort to discover who or what entity is responsible for the maintenance of the greens on the executive courses.

Through Thevillages.net golf site I finally got through to what I am convinced is the correct place to answer my concerns. This morning I recieved a phone call from Todd Basso, who introduced himself as the superintendant of golf course mantenance for for The Villages Executive golf courses. He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county.

He offered no excuses, just apologies for the lack of proper condition of the greens. He also explained that there are several maintenance companys with contracts to do specific courses in the villages and it appears to him that some companys are doing a better job then others. While he refused to use the unusual weather this year as an excuse, he did state that they were totaly unprepared to cope with it and that would never be the case again. He also stated that he is putting a process in place to rehabilitate our greens and that they will be back to great condition as soon as possible.

Todd also said he himself plays Baseline and there is no question that their greens are better then ours, and by next year ours will be just as good.

I would like to thank Todd Basso for his very sincere and informative phone call and I would also thank TOTV posters for helping me to get my concerns answered. I do hope that as a result of our efforts we will all be able to enjoy better golf.

By the way, told also stated to never hesitate to notify him of any concerns you may have about the executive courses. His job is answer our concerns and make the golf experience better for everyone.

I too had a conversation with Todd Basso this morning, and he basically told me everything that you said, Beartrack. I of course had been asking him about the Championship courses. He admitted there was a problem,he did mention problems with the overseeding, and said there are a number of issues that need to be addressed, and they will be addressed. I came away very impressed with this man. I felt he was sincere, and I think he means business. From what he said it didn't sound like a money problem, it was more a maintenance issue. He also mentioned the overseeding schedule, and how they may be doing it earlier next year to make sure it is all in place by the time the bad weather comes. I'm glad I had the opportunity to speak with him, and I feel relieved that they are aware of the problems and are working on them. That's all we can ask.

[REH7380]

Thanks for following through and reaching someone who would take ownership. Not wanting to be too hard but the question is why did it take a call from you to get action? If it is his responsibility to see that the Exec. courses are in good shape and they are not then there is a question as to either his technical skills or communication skills. I know I may get some critizim for raising this question but I have a problem when someone does not do their job until they are brought to the table. As I understand it he said,
"He told me that based on many complaints that have come across his desk about the poor condition of some of the exec. greens. He went out and investigated the alleged problems. He said that I am right about the poor conditions that exist at some of the exec greens, especially in Marion county."
If he is the superintendent of the Executive courses why did it take all the complaints for him to go look at the Courses. He should have been aware of the problems before the complaints? Hopefully he will learn from this?:confused:

[Halle]

Thank You Beartrack!

I appreciate the information.

[Allen]

Thank you very much, beartrack, for taking the initiative and following through on this. Borrowing a quote related to a much more serious topic we must now, "Trust, but verify". Those of us who are not yet TV residents must "trust" that this issue will be completely resolved... and not resurface. Those of you who are there, hopefully will do the "verifying". Please keep us posted so that we can do our part as appropriate in the future.

Job well done... Thank you once again!

[gemorc]

On Wednesday, I played the Cherry Hill to Laurel Valley rotation at Palmer. The greens are definitley not in " pristine" condition. If bare ground and blotchy grass mean "pristine", I am in the wrong place. I made a comment at the pro shop desk, the pro was not in his office, their response, it must be my fault. " This is Palmer Legends, everything is first class here."

[Bogie Shooter]

On Wednesday, I played the Cherry Hill to Laurel Valley rotation at Palmer. The greens are definitley not in " pristine" condition. If bare ground and blotchy grass mean "pristine", I am in the wrong place. I made a comment at the pro shop desk, the pro was not in his office, their response, it must be my fault. " This is Palmer Legends, everything is first class here."
The quote you state from the person behind the desk at Palmer is so out of character from anyone I have encountered at any of the golf courses in the past eight years. Is there more to your story?

[beartrack]

As I have mentioned in a previous post, I sent out several email and made several phone calls in my quest to find out why some of our executive course greens are in such poor condition. I have already explained my conversation with Mr Basso. Well I just recieved another email in response to my email to the VCDD customer service center. My message was picked up by Carrie Duckett the supervisor of that agency and forwarded to Sam Wartinbee Director, District Property Management, his message to me is as follows:

Good afternoon,

I just finished looking at the greens with Ed Keene the superintendant for Valley Crest Golf at Amberwood and Oakleigh, I agree that they are not in the best of shape, however they have improved since I looked at them last month. Ed will be lightly verti-cutting them in the next two weeks and then lower the height of cut which will improve the roll of the ball. Regarding the greens at Baseline they are overseeded with rye grass which is much thicker than Poa Triv which we use at The Villages. The reason The Villages uses Poa Triv instead of rye is it will transition better (the Poa Triv dies out and the Bermuda grows) in the spring.
If you have any further concerns or questions please feel free to call me.

Sam Watinbee

Director, District Property Management
352 753 4022


There you have it. In my humble opinion I thought that Mr Basso's answer was more genuine then Mr. Wartinbee's. The greens at the aforementioned two courses have gotten a lot worse in the last month. To state that they have gotten better is just not so. If Mr. Wartinbee would check my past playing schedule he would see that over the last month I have played those courses many times and the only reason that I started this thread is because they and others have gotten much worse over the last thirty days. I will call or email Mr. Wartenbee tomorrow and let my feelings be known. I will keep you posted, or some of you can call him and keep all of us posted.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

With the cost of everything else rising, it's nice to have something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Not all of us have big retirement dollars and that is what the original intent of establishing this community was in the first place....to allow more people the opportunity to enjoy their remaining days/years after working so hard and so long. We are comfortable, but far from rich and do have to budget. Sorry, I don't mean for this post to sound tacky, but there is supposed to be something for everyone here.

I agree with you and think that too many people moving in here expect things to be like a private country club.
Yes, the courses could look a lot better........so can my own landscaping!
How many residents have a nice lawn and nice green landscaping right now???
Sure will be glad when around June comes along and most of the whining stops.:clap2:

[BB14616]

I agree with you and think that too many people moving in here expect things to be like a private country club.
Yes, the courses could look a lot better........so can my own landscaping!
How many residents have a nice lawn and nice green landscaping right now???
Sure will be glad when around June comes along and most of the whining stops.:clap2:

The thing is, the Villages has advertised itself as a country club, so naturally people expect country club conditions. And the purpose of the overseeding is to keep things nice and green. You could have a green lawn now if you overseeded it.

This is how the Villages advertises the executive golf courses: "The Villages Executive Golf Trail consists currently of 24 (and growing yearly) nine hole courses unique to The Villages. These courses are primarily par 3 holes with the occasional par 4 or par 5. Unlike many �executive courses� outside The Villages, ours are maintained at a high standard. "

This is what they advertise for the championship courses: "Savor the challenge and the variety of nine championship golf courses, each complemented with the dining and amenities you'd expect from a first class resort country club. As a Villages resident - you're automatically a member!"

So when people play golf at a public course like Baseline and find it to be in better condition than our courses here, naturally people are going to complain. We'd be foolish not to.

[REH7380]

Is there anyone who actually believes that once you buy a home in The Villages that Executive golf is free for life? How are the costs associated with maintaining the course, paying the Ambassadors, etc. covered? The question is not if all are paying but how all are paying. It may be in the amenity fees, or some other method of raising revenue but somehow, somewere money is being raised to cover the expenses. I am surprised that in the TOTV notes questions are not raised as to where the revenue comes from and how it is being used?:popcorn:

[villages07]

REH.... it's public information. Exec golf course maintenance is funded by a portion of the amenity fees, the trail fees, guest fees. I've not yet come across a detailed budget from the central CDDs (who manage the amenities) that shows how much is spent on overseeding, funds for Pelican vs Amberwood, etc but there are budget statements that show sources of revenue and broad expense categories.

As has often been stated on this forum, "free for life" is not totally free. Something has to pay for the courses and their maintenance and operation. "Free" yes in that you don't have to pay a fee for each round you play if you walk and you are a resident. In my mind, it's quite a bargain.

[Whatever]

I'm still hearing that less seed of a cheaper quality is being used to save $$$$
on the greens and the tee boxes. When you speak to the powers that be, will you please inquire if this is so.

[Pturner]

With the cost of everything else rising, it's nice to have something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Not all of us have big retirement dollars and that is what the original intent of establishing this community was in the first place....to allow more people the opportunity to enjoy their remaining days/years after working so hard and so long. We are comfortable, but far from rich and do have to budget. Sorry, I don't mean for this post to sound tacky, but there is supposed to be something for everyone here.

I agree with you and think that too many people moving in here expect things to be like a private country club.
Yes, the courses could look a lot better........so can my own landscaping!
How many residents have a nice lawn and nice green landscaping right now???
Sure will be glad when around June comes along and most of the whining stops.:clap2:

:agree: Good points, Dillywho and Otherbrudda.

But don't you feel that if they had more money, they could spend more to keep the greens in better shape? I have almost always noted that if I pay $100 for a round of golf, the course is generally in better condition than say a course where I pay $15 or so.

If instead of free golf, I feel that The Villages could have much better course conditions if they charged an additional fee for golf on the executive courses.

This point also adds positively to the discussion, although I personally don't agree. Close to 80,000 people have moved here on the premise of "free golf" and an affordable retirement lifestyle. Undoubtedly "free golf" means "included" in the "affordable lifestyle" fees. The championship courses inside TV and the dozens of courses nearby are easily accessible to residents who are not interested in playing "free golf," with it's self-evident quality differences.

So much for my 2-cents. My larger (3-cent?) comment is that, to me, this is a model thread, thanks to all participants who have discussed and debated, agreed and disagreed, made points and counterpoints, without hostility or personal attacks. Those who felt strongly that changes were needed have taken action. Peeps on all sides of the issues raised have advocated well for their positions.

Here's to more discussions like this...
:beer3:

[beartrack]

Thanks PTurner for your comments. The only post that I thought was rude, was off target, and I do not believe that voicing a concern in a civil manner should be described as " Whining " Too bad, but I surrender!!!!

Over and out.

[Bogie Shooter]

I'm still hearing that less seed of a cheaper quality is being used to save $$$$
on the greens and the tee boxes. When you speak to the powers that be, will you please inquire if this is so.
I have to ask, where are you hearing this?

[REH7380]

Villages07..I did not say nor imply that it was not a bargin or is a bargin and hopefully that is understood. There would have to be a lot more details to make that judgement. If you own a home in The Villages you pay an amenity fee regardles whether you walk or ride and allegedly part of these fees go to maintain and cover the costs of the Executive Courses.. I am completely happy living in The Villages but that does not mean I have lost looking at the accuracy of reports and questioning the accuracy.:wave:

[BB14616]

I'm still hearing that less seed of a cheaper quality is being used to save $$$$
on the greens and the tee boxes. When you speak to the powers that be, will you please inquire if this is so.

When I spoke with Mr. Basso, I brought that up, and he said it was being investigated. He said The Villages has certain standards about how much seed has to be put down in the overseeding process, but reading between the lines, the companies that do it may have skimped. They are analyzing all the data. Obviously some courses are in better shape than others, and some are maintained by different companies. Basso appears to be on top of things. the proof will be in the pudding next winter.

[tankdvr1950]

I am sure the frigid weather this winter did not help with the condition of the greens and T's on both the Execs and Championship courses. As far as the Execs are concerned....i know first hand...that if the golfers would sand fill a divit or repair a ball make on a green once in awhile, the courses would be in much better condition and maybe sinking a putt would not be luck after having to bounce over all the unrepaired ball marks. Contrary to what at times appears to be the popular belief, these types of course repairs are the golfers responsibility, not OneSource or the Ambassador.

[Pturner]

I am sure the frigid weather this winter did not help with the condition of the greens and T's on both the Execs and Championship courses. As far as the Execs are concerned....i know first hand...that if the golfers would sand fill a divit or repair a ball make on a green once in awhile, the courses would be in much better condition and maybe sinking a putt would not be luck after having to bounce over all the unrepaired ball marks. Contrary to what at times appears to be the popular belief, these types of course repairs are the golfers responsibility, not OneSource or the Ambassador.

:agree: Please, let's all fix our divots and ball marks!

[beartrack]

Of course as every avid golfer knows, or should know. If you love playing golf then you need to have good course manners. It is your responsibility to rake traps, fill divots and repair ball marks. We should all take good care of the courses for our fellow golfers and for the love of the game.

I have read all the posts on this thread, some stuck to the subject matter " The executive course greens " some were off. Like talking about fairways and then the Championship courses but most stuck to the issue.

I do not expect to go out on our exec courses and find greens like Augusta National or Pebble beach. All I ask for is playable greens. It breaks my heart when I finally hit one on the dance floor and watch my putt bounce up and down and then make a left turn after hitting a clump of weeds.

I am no expert, nor do I pretend to be. I do not believe that anyone of us on this thread are. That said however, no matter what comments were made here, I had the privilege to speak to the real expert. The Superintendant of Golf Operations in The Villages Mr. Todd Basso. Much to my surprise, he agreed with me that some of our greens are in deplorable condition. He was man enough to admit that the weather was bad but, the maintenace was worse. He said how sorry he was and he would see to it that it would never happen again. This man has gained my respect and I take him at his word. I look forward to much better playing conditions in the future.

[Russ_Boston]

All we can ask for is accountability. Thanks.

[soonfl]

Is it possible to create a club that would walk a few fairways at the end of the day an fill the divots with seed and sand, repair ball marks on greens. With instruction such volunteerism would be appreciated by course management .

[REH7380]

It may be appropriate for the person who moves the holes, (hopefully each day) that they also spend a few minutes checking divots and repairing them.
Also, expand the Ambassador's responsibility to check and repair divots. That is probably the best fix to the problem and it is not unusual to have this responsibility given to the Rangers or in this case Ambassadors.:)

[Bogie Shooter]

As Russ says all we ask for is some accountability.
Fix your own ball marks and divots!

[dillywho]

As Russ says all we ask for is some accountability.
Fix your own ball marks and divots!

:agree:Kinda goes along with the signage we had up at work in our break area: "Your mother does not work here....clean up after yourself."

[downeaster]

As Russ says all we ask for is some accountability.
Fix your own ball marks and divots!

Absolutely!!!

And rake the mess you made in the sand trap.

[Dirigo]

Is it possible to create a club that would walk a few fairways at the end of the day an fill the divots with seed and sand, repair ball marks on greens. With instruction such volunteerism would be appreciated by course management .

Great idea. I have a friend who is a Disney castmember. He used to work at Osprey Ridge. He told me that every day, after the last foursome of the day was off the first tee and out of sight, a number of Osprey Ridge castmembers were given carts and lots of divot mix and they were tasked to fill every divot they cound find.

Disney courses are not perfect, but they are pretty darn nice.

Dirigo

[Dirigo]

As Russ says all we ask for is some accountability.
Fix your own ball marks and divots!

Fixing yours, and at least one other, would go a long way towards improving course conditions.

That's what my foursome does (not that course superintendent ever notices or says thanks).

Dirigo

[Dirigo]

Absolutely!!!

And rake the mess you made in the sand trap.

Amen...

[BB14616]

I'm always very diligent about repairing ball marks, my own and others I see, and once about a year or so ago, after repairing a number of ball marks out at Orange blossom, one of the course rangers gave me a gift certificate that said something about being courteous golfer on it. I think it was for around $5. I thought that was a nice gesture.

[The Great Fumar]

Many years ago following the Buick Open at Grand Blanc Michigan I had the opportunity to play three holes of golf with the The King , Arnold Palmer ,,,
First thing I noticed was how many ball marks he repaired on the greens...Thats when I decided that if the King can do it , then so can I ...from that day forward I fix every one I find..........

fumar with a repair tool:coolsmiley:

[golfnut]

a lot of good suggestions here. if i am waiting on the tee i always open the divot box and fill as many divots as i can while waiting for the group ahead to clear, it beats standing there just watching the group ahead, and i also repair every ball mark i see on a green, only takes a couple seconds....gn

[soonfl]

How about geting them to install some sand bottles on the tees. Visible and handy sand bottle might get used.

[Grill Meister]

I understand some of your concerns....I have a personal friend that works as an ambassador and starter on 4 of the finest executive courses in TV and he assures me that the same group maintains the executive courses as do the championship courses and there are no measures taken than do not apply to all of the courses.

There are several of factors that figure into some of the greens' conditions. The number of players on the executive courses fill up practically every t-time available, which leads to some deterioration....they get a lot of play. Too, a lot of the players on the executive courses are not "experienced" and do not know how to properly take care of their courses. Also, the executive courses receive an inordinate number of "seasonal residents" as well as renters, who don't appreciate their responsibility of take care of the courses and, unfortunately, some who just don't care. Nonetheless, we want to do everything possible to provide you with beautiful courses that are enjoyable to play.

All of the employees of the Golf Management Systems (the personnel that work at the courses) take pride in our courses and will do all we can to see that our golf-guests have an enjoyable round of golf. Our mission is: TO PROVIDE THE FRIENDLIEST GOLF AND COUNTRY CLUB EXPERIENCE IN THE WORLD. If we do not live up to that commitment, we want to know about it. Report poor course conditions to the club professional and maybe something can be done to improve them. If something can be done, it will be done.

Enjoy TV golf courses....they are there for only one purpose...for your enjoyment.

[3PUTT]

I play both Executive and Championship courses. The greens are in terrible shape on ALL courses. Generally, the traps are better on Championship because players tend to rake them better.

[ajbrown]

I play both Executive and Championship courses. The greens are in terrible shape on ALL courses. Generally, the traps are better on Championship because players tend to rake them better.

I am barely on the edge of this threads subject line and proceeding gently..... but here goes.... :laugh:

Just so I understand your rating system versus mine for future posts. Does the comment about the greens include Tierra recently?

[zcaveman]

I played Briarwood today and all of the greens were sanded. I think it is a start to getting the greens back in shape after this lousy winter.

Looking over at Walnut Grove it looked like they were sanded also.

[gemorc]

The easiest and best way to voice your concerns about the conditions of TV golf courses is to fill out your owners survey. Be sure to list all of your complaints (concerns).

The district maintenance managers are well aware of the problems on the golf course. They have virtually no control over the course conditions. The major concern of the Golf Management Systems, is the loss of potential tee times. No major repairs will be started until late March. After March we all can look forward to the annual reseeding of all the greens in TV. Oh Joy.

[golfnut]

check previous posts, i think tony basso is the point person, do a search...gn

[jackcis]

They did an excellent job on the Chula Golf Course, I think it is time to bite the bullet and close Mira Mesa until you get it in playing condition. I know you will probably get a lot of complaints from golfers, but it is really in bad shape and needs to be close for as long as it takes. Greens are in terrible shape, no markings on the Tees on some of the holes, in general the entire course is a wreck.

thank you for listening.

[Taj44]

Jackcis, thanks for your post. I encourage you to call 753-3396 and ask for Mr. Basso, who is the Golf Operations Manager for the Villages and let him know your concerns. Others on this forum have done so. I've played Mira Mesa in the past, and agree with you. I love the layout, but it is in terrible condition. We can voice our complaints here, but it doesn't really do much good other than allowing ourselves to vent. We, as players, need to let golf course Management know, so they can fix things. Beartracks, BB14616, and myself have called Mr. Basso in the past, and you know how it works, the squeaky wheel gets noticed. Thanks!