Solar Energy Project for the Villages

[Tom Farrell]

I spent over 40 years in the power construction energy, and have lived in the Villages for 3 years. I think we have the unique opportunity to try for a project to change the Villages to a solar energy national project. If we look into converting to solar energy (not just hot water), it would cost approx $40k. No one is interested that. However if there were about 40,000 houses that would get it done on a government sponsered stimulus program, the costs should could be substanially reduced, and we could be a model for the country;s green energy program.
How would the Villages be qualified for such a program? I am assumming we have about 40,000 houses based on our population of 75,000. We are in one of the sunniest areas of the country. Almost all houses are single story of standardized designs with ashphault shingle roofs. All are conducive to solar energy. They are grouped into an organized owner structure with individualized owners. The Villagers are a dynamic group that is constantly looking for improvedways of living.
I sent a suggestion for this to obtain stimulus funds for such a program to the Dept of Energy and the White House Stimulus Coordinator. I did not receive a reply from the WH (not sure if my email got there). THe Dept of Energy suggested I follow through the States stimulus progrom. I have presented to the Owners group with no response, and also to the POA organization again with no response.
I believe if we could get stimulus funds under the green energy prram for a Village Energy Project, we should be able to target the costs for a house to $10k where you could actually receive refunds for back flow of electricity to the grid. Also part of the program would be to update the energy efficiency of your house, to further reduce your energy costs as part of the government program.
I am open for suggestions as to how to get stimulus funds and Village support for such a green energy program, or if you think it far out, to drop it. Tom Farrrell

[cybermuda]

an excellent idea - I'm in if you need people to start signing up

it's a shame to waste so much non-polluting energy, especially if we can harness it cheaply

clearly solar water heating is currently the most cost-effective way, but I agree that photovoltaic cells would also be viable if we can feed back into the grid - especially for those only here a few months of the year

I am also in favor of wind-power, although many have strong feelings about that, but do we have sufficient wind in TV?

[ijusluvit]

Very good idea. We have to start somewhere with practical solar power for private residences, so why not in TV.

Can you tell me how your math went from 40k to 10k per house? Would there have to be as many as 40,000 homes to make the project feasible? I could foresee perhaps several thousand homeowners willing to join in such a project, but not 40 thou. Like the current appliance and LSV programs, this sounds to me like a potential tax credit or rebate kind of project. We get our congressional reps to advocate for a piece of the stimulus pie to those who install the equipment and have the government grant the credits over a multi-year period. For example - a 2k tax credit for x number of years to those who install photovoltaic and reverse metering equipment. In this scenario there are not large up-front stimulus grants necessary and the paybacks are spread over more than one budget year. Also, with a heavy campaign to install panels in a single community like TV, we should be able to get lower prices on both equipment and installation costs.

Oh, well, that's enough crazy thinking for one day.

[graciegirl]

I think it is a very good idea but not a doable one. I do not think that the people who would need to be convinced would be convinced...easily, i.e. the villagers and the owners.

Just my opinion.

[DougR]

Sounds like a good idea! If you ever need signatures for a petition etc, count me in! The whole concept sounds great and what better place to begin such a program as sunny Florida. You should not drop this venture but pursue it with vigor. Good Luck!

[salpal]

Wonderful idea! I read a statistic a long time ago that said if every household in China had a refrigerator, the ozone layer would cease to exist. I believe that time is getting closer and closer.

[EdV]

Why not try to walk before running. How many community center pools are there in TV, 30, or 40?. Why not get behind a plan to add solar heating to all of them. One at a time over the course of a few years and see how it goes.

In my opinion, solar heating of pools here in Florida is probably the most cost effective energy saving tool available today. If you can’t make that work, then why bother with anything else.

[ijusluvit]

Why not try to walk before running. How many community center pools are there in TV, 30, or 40?. Why not get behind a plan to add solar heating to all of them. One at a time over the course of a few years and see how it goes.

In my opinion, solar heating of pools here in Florida is probably the most cost effective energy saving tool available today. If you can’t make that work, then why bother with anything else.

This is also a good idea but unfortunately the costs of implementation would be high and could only come from the Developer or the AAC. I can't see that happening. On the other hand, residential conversions are within reach of some, and lots more with tax credits.

[EdV]

This is also a good idea but unfortunately the costs of implementation would be high and could only come from the Developer or the AAC. I can't see that happening. On the other hand, residential conversions are within reach of some, and lots more with tax credits.

Ain't gonna happen here.

[Pturner]

Don't know if it's feasible, but I'm open to the idea.

[GMONEY]

Seems to be alot of " Dont think it will work" feelings here. Instead of saying Good Idea, but it will not work, lets get the ball rolling. The creator of this thread along with the solor heating Pool idea, come up with something in writing. Get a petition circulating!! See how many signatures you can get, find out how many you will need to make this idea heard by the Head Cheese and friends. Then start a plan of attack. You got to always have a plan of attack!! Then submit the idea to all, including the media with the idea. Get them rolling, and I am sure a plan of this magnitude will get them rolling.

The possibilites are endless with such a great plan like this. The Villages are already doing alot more of the construction as a " LEED PROJECT" Green construction, which most dont know yet. But they are already heading in that direction. If you get Resistance, Think of my favorite War Figure, PATTON. " Hold em by the Nose and kick them in the A**"

But you have to get the ball rolling somewhere, If not this will just be another thread.

[rshoffer]

There are some homes that have already converted to photoelectric roof panels here in TV.

The first thing my son suggested when he saw our home was to investigate solar photoelectric roof panels. Considering the tax credit and the ability to sell power back to the electric company it seemed like a great idea.

Perhaps if this has momentum it might move forward.

[salpal]

Gmoney: agreed, power of positive thinking. All change start with one small step.:MOJE_whot:

[Rag Bagger]

That's what it all boils down to. Green sounds keen but all to often it dosen't truely save a dime and most of the time costs more. As soon as some one develods an energy mouse trap that truely saves money it will fly. Government rebates are not the answer because in the end you are still paying the bill of the new technology that may or may not save bucks in the end. As much as people want to save the environment some of this technology really cost way more energy than it saves.

So if you want to really cause a green change invent that energy mouse trap that truely pays for itself plus some.

[Zass38]

I worked for a startup, called GridPoint, that was involved in the 'smart grid" initiatives for several years.

the general concept was that if you get a group of homeowners to band together, as a group, then that group of users would then become a 'mini' electric generating plant, as each of the solar panel units would also be connected to a group of batteries. In this manner, when the electric utility needed power, such as between noon and 3PM, the utility would contact this group and take power from the batteries as the "going rate", which is as much as 10 times the sales rate. The power utilities really need this type of smart solar power. Out calculations showed that in general the investment would be returned to the owners in something like 5 years. Additionally, several utilities were amenable to contributing to the financing of the owners installations.

The KEY to this concept is that there be a cooperative of many (say 100-200) homes in the same power distribution grid.

Always a chance that a progressive utility such as SECO would go for this type of effort. SECO could then make the applications to the Dept of Energy ... this has been done in several other areas, such as Denver.

See www.gridpoint.com for some additional information on this concept.

[cybermuda]

Getting SECO involved is a good idea. With the expanding number of homes here they are going to need to keep adding to their capacity, and doing so with the help of their current customers is a win-win situation. They should have more clout in getting grants than we as individuals, and surely the "powers that be" would rather see Florida use its existing potential rather than just build another power station?

Also, getting the media involved should give this project a leg up. They like a 'feel good' story about individuals getting together to solve a problem, rather than leaving it to the corporate world.

It may be that financially it doesn't make things cheaper for us, but there are probably enough green people in TV who would support the project anyway - count me in, for a start. Anyone who doesn't want to isn't being forced to - we just need to reach a critical mass to get things started.

Comments from those who have already gone the solar route would be useful. What have been your experiences in terms of costs and savings? Have you been able to sell back excess power to SECO?

Thank you

[Rag Bagger]

Zass38, I wonder why it takes so many homes to be involved? I have read where individuals have sold energy back to utilitiy companies. Most of these individual cases seem to be out west. Maybe more foward thinking people. But again it is a very limited following. Often times it seems to be folks that just think it's important to make energy a green project.

It all gets back to the fact that if you want it to be a viable consumer product (green energy) you have to show and prove that it will make money. Or the same being eliminating your energy bill for less than the equipment that is installed and to maintain that equipment. If that were done it would be a no brainer. But so far I haven't seen the ideas that will truely do that.

[TrudyM]

Is the need for so many houses related to the reduced cost and the rate that they get from the utility? Net metering is available to anyone if the state laws require it. But the rate may be negotiated higher with the utility if there is alot.

I seem to remember reading someplace, that a developer did a 100 houses and the local firestation and strip mall and got the electric company to float a bond to pay for it. The cost of repaying the bond was deducted from the sell back and any additional electricity used by the homeowner was charged. So if in a particular month say Feb for heat and July for air the house used a ton of electric the bill could be big but the rest of the year it was dropped low (to like $25???) Wish I could remember the article location.

The Districts governing the rec centers, pools etc should definatley go solar they have alot longer to reap the benifits.

I don't live there yet or I would be signing up.
Trudy

[graciegirl]

I don't think you can make it go here because we can only act as individuals. This is not a democracy, it is a benign dictatorship. If you or anyone could sell the developer it would be another thing. I don't think you can because the idea is not good enough YET.

We can make petitions and have people sign them until the cows come home. This place is thought out to a T, and this idea has not been built in. I personally agree with the person who said, "follow the money"...and I also agree that getting government money for such a project is not a good idea.

I do not think that we would save money at this point with your plan and I still believe it is not feasible. Why waste your time? It will happen when someone comes up with that "better mousetrap" and then everyone will jump on it making it cost effective.

AND I think the developer has our well being in mind...because our well being sells more houses.

[Zass38]

Lincoln .. the reason for the large number of participating homes is for the Utility (SECO) to pay for part of the installation and conversion costs. In short the "federation" of these homes is then treated as a peaking power plant. This has the effect of being the same as a small power station for SECO when then really need the power, say on July 10 between noon and 2PM.

[Pturner]

Seems to be alot of " Dont think it will work" feelings here. Instead of saying Good Idea, but it will not work, lets get the ball rolling. The creator of this thread along with the solor heating Pool idea, come up with something in writing. Get a petition circulating!! See how many signatures you can get, find out how many you will need to make this idea heard by the Head Cheese and friends. Then start a plan of attack. You got to always have a plan of attack!! Then submit the idea to all, including the media with the idea. Get them rolling, and I am sure a plan of this magnitude will get them rolling.

The possibilites are endless with such a great plan like this. The Villages are already doing alot more of the construction as a " LEED PROJECT" Green construction, which most dont know yet. But they are already heading in that direction. If you get Resistance, Think of my favorite War Figure, PATTON. " Hold em by the Nose and kick them in the A**"

But you have to get the ball rolling somewhere, If not this will just be another thread.

I don't like the idea of getting the ball rolling by petition. I don't know what the current state of the technology is; but the proposal would need to make business sense and sell itself. It would need to stand on its merits, not be demanded. I would not sign a petition.

[Rag Bagger]

Lincoln .. the reason for the large number of participating homes is for the Utility (SECO) to pay for part of the installation and conversion costs. In short the "federation" of these homes is then treated as a peaking power plant. This has the effect of being the same as a small power station for SECO when then really need the power, say on July 10 between noon and 2PM.

Ok that sounds potentially logical. Does SECO have such a plan at this time? i.e. show me the money. It's a great talking point but I have to wonder why it hasn't been done so far. It sounds very simple but it must somehow be very complicated. I don't know. I do remember reading about individuals who sell power back to utility companies. But it is very rare. If it pays, I have to wonder why there aren't contractors beating down our door to install power systems to feed back in to the grid. You are right TV is probably in a very good location to use solar energy but yet very few have installed a system. If there is anyone interested I will happily lease my roof to an energy contractor. Or if someone can show me on paper how I can make money from solar power generation I will do it in a New York Minute.

[graciegirl]

I am bumping this thread because there is a person who just started another thread that sounds like it may be along these lines.

I don't know, wonder if I am right or wrong....

[GaDawg]

Tech advances may bring the costs down over time. Where did I read lately that a company had developed the photovoltiac cells into shingles that are installed the same at the shingles we use today. Completely changes the "look" which some people object to. The roof then becomes the photovoltaic collector. Ah, I might have dreamed it....still sounds like a plan though.

[waynet]

love the idea

[Philip Winkler]

Tom,
Great idea, unfortunately the stimulus funds had to be obligated by 9/30/2010. I recently retired from Air Products in Allentown, PA where I was responsible for securing government funding. During my last year I was able to secure stimulus funding for several large clean energy projects that totaled $1 billion. One of the projects was a thin film solar farm to provide 50% of the electricity needs for AP's headquarters in Allentown--about 2MW. These projects are complex and require partnering with the local utility, state funding agency and DOE. If the solar panels are not installed on each home's roof then a lot of acres need to be set-aside for the panels. Having said that I would volunteer to help secure state and federal funding provided a viable project can be put together.

[aljetmet]

Why not try to walk before running. How many community center pools are there in TV, 30, or 40?. Why not get behind a plan to add solar heating to all of them. One at a time over the course of a few years and see how it goes.

In my opinion, solar heating of pools here in Florida is probably the most cost effective energy saving tool available today. If you can’t make that work, then why bother with anything else.

:BigApplause:

How about also adding a function to fuel electric golf carts at the same time.
A resident buys in and swipes a card while he goes bathing...

To me the basic problem will be is:

Where in the world am I going to get the cash to put up in advance as a senior citizen to pay for solar energy. I need cash flow in and not out in year one!

Therefore, financing must be included to make it where most TV residents would accept.

[SALYBOW]

Pat, You cut your hair. Cute!!

[Tom Hannon]

I am open for suggestions as to how to get stimulus funds and Village support for such a green energy program, or if you think it far out, to drop it. Tom Farrrell

Tom, One of my customers I had while in business (Machine shop) is a solar engineer/ solar scientist. I forwarded him your idea and below is his reply...



I would contact the Florida Solar Energy Center in Cocoa Florida, not far from you at all! There has to be someone there that can speak intelligently on the various state and federal programs your community can pursue.

[Indydealmaker]

The only way a subsidized investment in a new technology makes sense is if the installation is permanent. I have seen reports that indicate that the panels have a 20 to 30 year life. Who pays for the re-capitalization then? Remember, this subsidy is not from the government. It is from you.

[ijusluvit]

Tom, One of my customers I had while in business (Machine shop) is a solar engineer/ solar scientist. I forwarded him your idea and below is his reply...



I would contact the Florida Solar Energy Center in Cocoa Florida, not far from you at all! There has to be someone there that can speak intelligently on the various state and federal programs your community can pursue.

Tom,
Congratulations on keeping this thread alive for 14 months! I encourage you to pursue it further and ask for more suggestions or help when you need it. If you are able to reach the right people hopefully you will be able to develop a viable plan. My feeling is that if a feasible plan specific to TV is published, the resident participants necessary to make it work will follow.

[Jeff Bieberfeld]

i love the idea, am so tired of putting money into non renewable energy, and sending our hard earned dollars overseas...it is about time we take care of ourselves.
now what to do? start small with retro-fitting one village as an experiment....surely there is some university or some sort of grant available to fund this sort of thing. we do have retired engineers hers, and others who have a lot of experience in the energy business?
thanks.
:BigApplause:

[PJ]

This is a great idea, count me in!

[Philip Winkler]

I spent over 40 years in the power construction energy, and have lived in the Villages for 3 years. I think we have the unique opportunity to try for a project to change the Villages to a solar energy national project. If we look into converting to solar energy (not just hot water), it would cost approx $40k. No one is interested that. However if there were about 40,000 houses that would get it done on a government sponsered stimulus program, the costs should could be substanially reduced, and we could be a model for the country;s green energy program.
How would the Villages be qualified for such a program? I am assumming we have about 40,000 houses based on our population of 75,000. We are in one of the sunniest areas of the country. Almost all houses are single story of standardized designs with ashphault shingle roofs. All are conducive to solar energy. They are grouped into an organized owner structure with individualized owners. The Villagers are a dynamic group that is constantly looking for improvedways of living.
I sent a suggestion for this to obtain stimulus funds for such a program to the Dept of Energy and the White House Stimulus Coordinator. I did not receive a reply from the WH (not sure if my email got there). THe Dept of Energy suggested I follow through the States stimulus progrom. I have presented to the Owners group with no response, and also to the POA organization again with no response.
I believe if we could get stimulus funds under the green energy prram for a Village Energy Project, we should be able to target the costs for a house to $10k where you could actually receive refunds for back flow of electricity to the grid. Also part of the program would be to update the energy efficiency of your house, to further reduce your energy costs as part of the government program.
I am open for suggestions as to how to get stimulus funds and Village support for such a green energy program, or if you think it far out, to drop it. Tom Farrrell
Tom,
Here is a Department of Energy funding opportunity:

SunShot Initiative: Rooftop Solar Challenge to Induce Market Transformation - The goal of the Rooftop Solar Challenge is to achieve measurable improvements in market conditions for rooftop photovoltaic across the United States, with an emphasis on streamlined and standardized permitting and interconnection processes. This FOA will take a phased approach, addressing four main action areas (listed below), designed so awardees that succeed in all action areas will have the necessary policy and process framework in place to support a robust solar market in their region:
· Permitting and Interconnection Processes
· Net Metering and Interconnection Standards
· Financing Options
· Planning and Zoning.

Letter of Intent Due Date: July 18, 2011
Application Due Date: August 31, 2011

For-profit entities have to team on this one so please contact as soon as possible. In order to submit a full application you must submit a letter of intent by July 18th.

I'd be happy to help on this.

Best,
Phil Winkler