How Do We Feel About Israel?

[Guest]

For years Israel has continued to expand into territory that is not theirs with the construction of settlements. The result is continued unrest and little possibility that peace will ever be agreed on in the region. Recently, a top level report was prepared for and by the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying that the continued aggressive behavior by Israel was, among other results, encouraging and enabling al Quaeda to recruit both suicide bombers as well as fighters to be trained for the Taliban in Afghansitan. In essence the report said, Israel's actions was aiding and abetting the very enemy that is killing our soldiers every day. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was so disturbed and alarmed by the report that he immediately forwarded it to both the State Department and the White House.

We give Israel about $3 billion each year in foreign aid as well as selling them advanced military equipment. A year or so ago they attempted to obtain tactical nuclear weapons from us, which we refused to sell to them.

Their economy is stronger than ours at the moment. Their fiscal situation is pretty good, their economy is growing at a faster rate than our own, and their unemployment is substantially lower.

Then, of course, there was the incident last week when while Vice President Biden was visiting their Prime Minister to express our continued support for Israel in the peace negotiations, Israel announced the expansion of another settlement of 1,600 homes into Gaza and the West Bank. The result was riots in the streets of Palestine.

Virtually every member of our government openly expressed anger over the outward slap in the face to the U.S. demonstrated by that action and announcement.

Question: How do we send a strong message to Israel? Should we cut off all foreign aid? Should we stop selling them weapons, or at least drag our feet in doing so? What should we demand of them regarding continued expansion into Palestine and what should the threat from us be?

[Guest]

Why do you want to send a strong message to Israel? Are they the bad guys? How many concessions have been rejected by the Palestinians? It has been obvious for years to people who have studied and are honest about the situation that the only offer that the Palestinians will find acceptable is the non-existence of Israel. Offering them anything else is a fools folly.

I do think that Israel should annex the land and end all "legal" arguments. Then, move on.

Yoda

[Guest]

What's wrong with expanding? Did not the United States expand?

[Guest]

Villages Kahuna, your question, "How do we send a strong message to Israel? Should we cut off all foreign aid? Should we stop selling them weapons, or at least drag our feet in doing so? What should we demand of them regarding continued expansion into Palestine and what should the threat from us be?" , is, IMHO, such an anti-Isreal editorial view.

It is hard to answer. My answer would be more in tone with history, religion and how they mold politics in the region and around the world for that matter. I realize the US, Isreal and Palestine make it political. But what we can't seem to grasp is that to Isreal and the Middle East, politics is religious.

[Guest]

For years Israel has continued to expand into territory that is not theirs with the construction of settlements. The result is continued unrest and little possibility that peace will ever be agreed on in the region. Recently, a top level report was prepared for and by the members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying that the continued aggressive behavior by Israel was, among other results, encouraging and enabling al Quaeda to recruit both suicide bombers as well as fighters to be trained for the Taliban in Afghansitan. In essence the report said, Israel's actions was aiding and abetting the very enemy that is killing our soldiers every day. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs was so disturbed and alarmed by the report that he immediately forwarded it to both the State Department and the White House.

We give Israel about $3 billion each year in foreign aid as well as selling them advanced military equipment. A year or so ago they attempted to obtain tactical nuclear weapons from us, which we refused to sell to them.

Their economy is stronger than ours at the moment. Their fiscal situation is pretty good, their economy is growing at a faster rate than our own, and their unemployment is substantially lower.

Then, of course, there was the incident last week when while Vice President Biden was visiting their Prime Minister to express our continued support for Israel in the peace negotiations, Israel announced the expansion of another settlement of 1,600 homes into Gaza and the West Bank. The result was riots in the streets of Palestine.

Virtually every member of our government openly expressed anger over the outward slap in the face to the U.S. demonstrated by that action and announcement.

Question: How do we send a strong message to Israel? Should we cut off all foreign aid? Should we stop selling them weapons, or at least drag our feet in doing so? What should we demand of them regarding continued expansion into Palestine and what should the threat from us be?

If we do what you suggest would we be siding with terrorists?

[Guest]

First, while I didn't make any recommendations, my feelings were pretty evident in the way I framed the question. I admit that. If you disagree or were offended, I'm sorry.

But the events of the last week or so seemed to refocus the spotlight on U.S.-Israeli relations. What we see isn't too good, if not downright disturbing. Regardless of all that the U.S. has done for Israel over the years since it was formed, their actions last week were downright disdainful of what we have been working for in that region for some time--since the Carter administration at least. We continue to attempt to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians, but the Israelis act totally unwilling to cooperate and compromise to achieve such an objective.

Israel is the strongest military force in the region--mainly as the result of our aid--and they know it. They could crush the Palestinians like an insect at any time they choose. Like the U.S., Israel also has liberal and conservative political factions. Their conservative faction, whose conservatism is based mostly on religion and their belief that they should expand beyond their borders, is currently in control of their government.

Now back to my question--specifically with regard to Israel, but maybe also with regard to the way we distribute foreign aid elsewhere. Are we getting our money's worth? Are we giving our hard-earned taxpayer-provided dollars to countries who can and will be true allies of the U.S. and/or have resources, location, or other assets important to the long-term well-being of our country. For the most part, that's what foreign aid is for, isn't it?

Who gets U.S. foreign aid, you might ask?

The U.S. gives an estimated $26 billion in foreign aid—70% more than when President George W. Bush took office (the figure doesn’t include funds related to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan). More than 150 countries get financial assistance from the U.S. The six that received the most this year are:

Israel ($2.4 billion) Virtually all of this money is used to buy weapons, much of which is made in the U.S. Beginning in 2009, we have announced plans to give Israel $30 billion over the next ten years.
Egypt ($1.7 billion) $1.3 billion to buy weapons; $103 million for education; $74 million for health care; $45 million to promote civic participation and human rights.
Pakistan ($798 million) $330 million for security efforts, including military-equipment upgrades and border security; $20 million for infrastructure.
Jordan ($688 million) $326 million to fight terrorism and promote regional stability through equipment upgrades and training; $163 million cash payment to the Jordanian government.
Kenya ($586 million) $501 million to fight HIV/AIDS through drug treatment and abstinence education and to combat malaria; $15 million for agricultural development; $5.4 million for programs that promote government accountability.
South Africa ($574 million) $557 million to fight TB and HIV/AIDS; $3 million for education.

So it looks like our government is throwing our money around for two principal purposes--to try to buy peace in the Middle East, and to help poor countries in Africa fight HIV/AIDS.

How many of them can we really count as "allies"--Egypt? Pakistan? Even Israel? How many of them have much of anything that the U.S. needs or wants? Location, natural resources, military power that might ally with us, a vote in the UN? Is Israel really the country at the top of the list that is important to the U.S.? I'm finding it difficult to figure out how. I'm really questioning whether we're getting our money's worth.

One reason that I would never be effective in the foreign relations trade is that I'd probably lose my temper too often and demand more tit-for-tat than we've been able to get with our "nice rich guys" approach. But, oh well, on to the question.

Like lots of "discussions political", this may be nothing more than a fruitless discussion. Along with the NRA, the drug companies who get a nice chunk of business selling the drugs for HIV/AIDS sent to Africa, AARP, and so forth, the Israel lobby is well-known to be among the largest, strongest and most generous with Congress as any. Throw in the lobby money coming from the weapons makers who get the orders from Israel with our money, and it's a no-win situation as far as changing anything methinks.

But I still am left with the nagging question--are we getting our moneys-worth from our foreign aid spending?

[Guest]

those who represent us (using the term very loosely) take permissive pacifism to a new low. We have become the let's not offend anybody nation.....and the apologize if I do or did ever.

We have become a laughing stock in the eyes of the nations fortunate enough to have strong willed leaders...the good and the bad.

In WWII we were referred to as the paper tiger that the Japanese aroused when they bombed Pearl Harbor. We have become the paper doll to be insulted, ignored and kick sand in the face.....with no worry of retribution.

btk

[Guest]

To me, it's all relative in the Middle East.

Palestinian child gets caught in a crossfire and killed by an Israeli bullet, it's worldwide news.

Jordan slaughters 10-20,000 Palestinians in a few days (Black September 1970) and nobody remembers.

Israel accepted the original partition plan (which was a joke, quite frankly). All the neighboring states declared war.

Israel traded the Sinai for a peace treaty with Egypt.

Name all the democracies in the Middle East. (Hint, it's a VERY short list)

The Palestinians have been the Arab 'excuse'. The kleptocrats and despots in the various countries have been able to deflect attention away from their own corruption by keeping the Israeli conflict at the head of the news for decades now. And when someone has the guts to say "Enough!", look what happens to people like Anwar Sadat.

Has anyone noticed that 'Palestine' was an undeveloped catbox prior to Israel's formation?

This by no means excuses some of Israel's actions. But how would you feel if you lived in Texas and 200 rockets a day were being fired at you from Mexico? This is what you have to deal with when you live near Gaza.

[Guest]

...how would you feel if you lived in Texas and 200 rockets a day were being fired at you from Mexico? This is what you have to deal with when you live near Gaza.

Surely, I would be pretty P.O.'d. But there may be a couple other viewpoints.

First, I think that maybe, just maybe I might be trying to figure out a way to make peace with the rocket lobbers. The lobbers can't take on Israel in trditional combat, so they use guerilla warfare. The Israelis can't find all the guerillas, even with their superior firepower. So the formula seems to be there for some conversation between the two parties.

Then, there's the U.S. involvement and what we'd like to see happen. We fund almost 5% of the entire Israeli national budget. We also sell them almost all of the firepower that keeps them safe, if not from the guerillas, at least from traditional attack. We'd like them to make nice with the Palestinians, basically to make sure that the situation in the Middle East is stable enough so that the oil will keep flowing our way.

So, how would I feel? I think I'd feel like I'd better do something other than continue to push a stick in the eyes of both the guys shooting rockets at me as well as the folks in the USA that are substantially funding my government.

By the way, The unemployment rate in Israel is now at about 7% and dropping quickly. Their economy is quickly returning to normal. Their fiscal management of their country's finances has resulted in their bonds being rated investment grade (Moody's 'A'). An index of their stock market shows a 75% gain in 2009.

And we keep sending them $3 billion a year, 5% of their total government expenditures, and what we get is a stick in the eye? Something's wrong with this picture.

But then, I'm not a foreign policy wonk, and never will be.

[Guest]

It boils down to this:

Israel: We're willing to live side-by-side. We'll trade land for peace. We've done it before, we'll do it again. But don't shoot at us as we WILL shoot back.

Arabs: Anything from peace (Egypt) to acceptable tolerance (Jordan) to "It is our stated goal to wipe Israel from the face of the map and exterminate all Zionists" (Gaza).

You can talk to the first two. There's no talking with the latter.

[Guest]

And we keep sending them $3 billion a year, 5% of their total government expenditures, and what we get is a stick in the eye? Something's wrong with this picture.

In a recent post you approved of a paltry $24 billion dollar expenditure to bring the internet to every man, woman and child in America. You said, "The proposed project will amount to .00686% of the federal budget. It seems to me that at that price it's a bargain." Using your logic, what percentage of the Federal Budget is a paltry $3 billion to enhance very real security concerns based on Iran's development of nuclear weapons and their announced threat to use them.


Israel has been our strongest ally in the Mideast. Three words trouble me a lot more than aid to Israel. Iran, Iran, Iran. When Iran has the nuclear weapons and the delivery system to use them, every nickle we spend in Israel will have been worth it. Israel will do most or all of the heavy lifting if the Iranian threat becomes imminent. Strategically, it would be counter productive to effectively weaken Israel by cutting aid. It would give significant advantage to Iran. It appears to me there has been a slow erosion of America's traditional support for Israel under the Obama administration's foreign policy. I question why.

[Guest]

It boils down to this:

Israel: We're willing to live side-by-side. We'll trade land for peace. We've done it before, we'll do it again. But don't shoot at us as we WILL shoot back.

Arabs: Anything from peace (Egypt) to acceptable tolerance (Jordan) to "It is our stated goal to wipe Israel from the face of the map and exterminate all Zionists" (Gaza).

You can talk to the first two. There's no talking with the latter.

I just don't understand why people refuse to understand this.

[Guest]

If we collectively feel so strongly about continuing to support Israel as our strongest ally in the Middle East, then why don't we just do it in a big way?

Our support for Israel now is so transparent to their announced enemies as to be laughable. Why don't we just fund Israel in a big way--$3 billion a year or even triple that is an insignificant proportion of our national budget--and just tell them to go ahead and occupy as much of Gaza and the West Bank as they'd like. They've certainly got the military might to do that if they so choose. It seems to me that we wouldn't make any more enemies among the Muslims and Arabs around there than we already have.

When the word spreads, it might make life for our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan a lot more dangerous than it already is, but that would be the price of that kind of support. That was the strong forewarning by the Joint Chiefs which was sent to the State Department and the White House. The generals don't get all the "paid advice" that the elected members of our government get from the likes of the Israel lobby and all those companies selling arms to Isreal, so they tend to tell it like it is. What's are the words so often used, "...listen to the generals on the ground."

We might also consider what effect our undisguised support for Israel might have on our relations with other Muslim countries--Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the friendly, smaller gulf states. You know, the ones with all the oil or control over the waterways thru which the oil is shipped to the U.S.? Might those relations suffer as well? But I guess that would be more of the price of taking the veil off our support for Israel.

One other question: If Israel makes the unilateral decision to attack Iran's nuclear facilities to avoid the possibility of attack on them and starts a really bad shooting war in the region, what should the U.S. do? Would Israel simply be "our dog in the fight"? Or would we jointly enter the war with Israel against Iran for control of the region? I might point out that Iran has a much larger and even more well-equipped military than Israel. Their equipment and weapons are all supplied by Russia.

If we will support Israel unconditionally, in essence will we have ceded our decision-making over our foreign and military strategy in the Middle East to them? I'm not sure I trust Benjamin Netenyahu and their conservative and hawkish Knesset more than our political leaders, however much we criticize them.

Nope, the more I think about it the more I conclude that we really need to lean hard on Israel to perform the way we wish. Both the U.S. and the rest of the world have a lot more riding on trying to build some sort of peaceful co-existence among all the peoples of the Middle East than to permit some Israeli political cowboys put it all at risk in order to build 1,600 housing units right in the middle of the West Bank. If that means really getting tough with Netenyahu--so be it. What's the more important relationship, the fact that we have a nation of 7 million people that's about the size of Massachusetts as our best ally in the Middle East? Or the fact that without the money and arms provided by the U.S., the Arabs would have long ago overrun the newly formed state of Israel?

It seems to me that if we tell them what we expect and how we expect them to act with their neighbors, they'd have little choice but to comply. Ahhh, but then there's all that money being thrown around Washington by the Israel lobby and the arms makers.