Health Bill Passes

[HMLRHT1]

What does everyone think about it?

[JimJoe]

Socialism

[Lou Card]

I recently read the entire sermon on the mount and am convinced that Jesus would have said yes to the bill. But then again, I would give free health care to dogs and cats as well as children and the poor so who am I to say one way or the other.:shocked:

Lou

[JimJoe]

I recently read the entire sermon on the mount and am convinced that Jesus would have said yes to the bill. But then again, I would give free health care to dogs and cats as well as children and the poor so who am I to say one way or the other.:shocked:

Lou
Health care is not FREE. Jesus never took anything from anyone by force or taxation and gave it to someone else. He encouraged charity, and so do I.

[billethkid]

and lowest priced and quality health care you will ever have.....WHILE IT LASTS.

In the near future:
you will have lessor access....has to be right? Adding 32,000,000 to an existing system!!!

you will have lessor coverage...there is no doubt right? If they are reducing Medicare by $500 billion, they are paying providers less, hence you will get less.
In addition more providers will no longer take Medicare/Medicaid.

your insurance premiums will go up or you will have to add more supplemental coverage...no doubt about it? Of course not. As access and providers becomes less, some of us will seek supplemental insurers to maintain the type coverage we have enjoyed.....UNTIL NOW!!!.

you will be lulled into a false notion that it is working....the ultimate joke in the bill. Some services will be front end loaded with no increased costs. The tax increases go into effect in late 2011 and will continue through 2014 and beyond as other new elements in the reforms wish list are enabled.

Today is the best you will ever have for the least cost!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

[2young]

The government already owns healthcare for more than half of the people,
including Medicare, military, and the Indian Health Service. Funny how most of the people who already HAVE SOCIALIZED health care are the ones
complaining the loudest about others and their needs! I got mine, screw the rest of you! If you hate SOCIALISM so much, please pay for your own insurance. (and while your at it, please send the government your SS checks!

[Lou Card]

Health care is not FREE. Jesus never took anything from anyone by force or taxation and gave it to someone else. He encouraged charity, and so do I.

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

[mfp509]

Well said Lou!

[BlueHeronFan]

I'd rather go with a few facts.

http://www.aim.org/briefing/myths-about-socialized-medicine/

[Pebbles]

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou



Thank you for saying what I feel, but I couldn't express it as well as you have.

[OpusX1]

I have no doubt that I will be paying more and getting less. Any time the government messes with private enterprise it screws it up.

[salpal]

Thanks Lou Card, you said it best. The working poor are the backbone of this country and have suffered for too long.

[Lou Card]

I have no doubt that I will be paying more and getting less. Any time the government messes with private enterprise it screws it up.

I think you may be correct; however, even if that is the case, I agree to pay more and get less if it helps relieve the suffering of those that cannot get access to health care at all.

Lou

[Rag Bagger]

LC I feel you are right on. To those that think there will be a sudden increase in taxes, you may be right BUT the truth is you are already payng for those uninsured right now. Sick people that don't have insurance in nearly all cases get treatment. No hospital or ER will or can turn them down. So how do you think that is paid for. It's not free. The answer is of course, everybody elses health care costs are higher to cover the uninsured.

I have a relative who is a hospital CEO his major complaint is that there are many that simply will nor buy insurance not because they cannot afford it but because they don't have to. They still go to the ER for health services. They have income but they will not be responsible. Dump the cable TV dump the big car payment or buy a more reasonable home but instead buy no insurance. Insurance isn't enjoyable you can't watch It you can't drive it around but everyone should be responsible to by insurance. As I see it, it could be very much like withholding taxes from a pay check.

Thinking back on history if we listened to all the critics we would't have Social Security for retirement, we would't have Medicare all this stuf would not exist and we would have retiries living in total poverty. That's us.

The hard part will be managing the entitelment aspect. It happens in the medicare plans today. The attitude is I am entitled to item X say four every year. I have a closet full of Xs but I am going to the medical center to get the next one due me eventhough I have 20xs I haven't used or needed.

I see that everyday right here in TV.

I guess my point is we are already paying for health care now' Let's try to get more people paying their own way buy managing the insurance aspect of health care.

[tony]

Please keep in mind what the original poster is asking.

Health Bill Passes
What does everyone think about it?

What does everyone thing about the bill is the question.

Thus far almost all have kept to that narrow question. I am removing partisan posts and assorted name-calling.
Only two so far have been dumped. They were well intended, but they started this thread onto a
political discussion, not what the original poster has intended.

Let's keep this on topic, please. If it gets political, we will move the thread to the Political section.

We would rather it stays here because it is a good general question on the bill that just passed.

There are a couple of very good threads going already over in Political. You can post your political
views there.

[OpusX1]

Lou, that is the problem with this bill. I do not agree to pay more and get less but I have no choice in the matter.

[Lou Card]

Lou, that is the problem with this bill. I do not agree to pay more and get less but I have no choice in the matter.

OpusX1,

I understand Opus, but hopefully you will get a few extra Gold Stars on your life's report card for doing so and I hope that you can feel good about that. I am Tri-Care and if this goes as the GOP says, I will be taxed on my Tri-Care Medical coverage and that will cut into my retirement budget. We are already quite tight and that may mean cutting back on some fun stuff; however, I still welcome the cut-back in order to help those in need.

Lou

[chelsea24]

Lou, I agree with everything you've said, except I don't think we'll have to pay more and get less. This bill is just the foundation and it's a strong one. There will be more improvements to come.

I received a call from friends last night, soooo happy and excited because their daughter, soon graduating from college can now stay on their insurance plan until she is 26 and can get herself settled. BTW, their daughter is diabetic. So, when she does get her own insurance, her pre-existing condition cannot count against her. This is a win-win situation for this couple.

Lou, you sound like you have a giving heart and I applaud your post. I've said this before, but one of my favorite sayings is...

"No man is so tall as when he stoops to help another." It's a wonderful day indeed. A big step in the right direction. :)

[JimJoe]

Socialism always says its goal is social justice, but it is still socialism. This country was founded upon individualism, and has prospered because if that. No matter how well meaning your goal is, use of socialism as a political solution will destroy this country. It destroys motivation, and the willingness to take risk. I appreciate your honest feelings, they are well intended I am sure, but that political solution to social problems will destroy our political and economic system and like all countries that used socialism to achieve social justice, we will fail.
Social Security was designed to be a way for the government to force workers to save for retirement by extracting money from their wages in exchange for the promise of a retirement check. THEN it was expanded to those who paid NOTHING into it. THEN it was expanded to pay more than you pay in. It will go broke, that is a mathematic certainty. Medicare is the the same. Medicaid is Socialism, I agree.
Medical care for all is good. But everyone cannot get everything free. It must be limited. Mandatory government medical care for all is a disaster.
Your point is since we already have socialism, we should have more.
My point is we are standing on the edge of economic destruction. I want to back away and look for another solution. We should not try to jump and hope we can fly.

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

[Chi-Town]

I'd rather go with a few facts.

http://www.aim.org/briefing/myths-about-socialized-medicine/
Not sure if a blog is a factual source.

[mulligan]

I feel there may be some good workable ideas in the bill, but the fundamental model was based on our mandatory health-care here in Mass. The problem here is masscare, which covers those that cannot or will not buy insurance, is experiencing a $295 million dollar shortfall just for the last quarter. Most of that deficit comes from reduced federal aid. If the fed cannot support 1 state, what happens when 49 more jump on board ??

[BobKat1]

The true effects of the bill won't be felt for some time. As with most things like this, the results will fall somewhere in the middle. Not as rosy as some would like us to believe, and not the end of the world as others would like to think.

[ejp52]

Yes it is a great day,IF burdening our children and grand children with the massive spending this health care bill will cost.

[PR1234]

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

Lou....you are MY kind of MAN!!!;)

[elevatorman]

I believe the AIM Blog is very bias. Try this on for facts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62K1IV20100321

[golf2140]

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) reports that this bill cuts Medicare by half a trillion dollars, raises taxes, and dramatically expands Medicaid. It increases the cost of health insurance for all Americans, and then it mandates that you buy the coverage. It puts an unelected bureaucrat in control of your healthcare. And if you try to escape any of it, there are 16,500 new IRS enforcers created by this bill just to track you down.

From Ginney Brown

[Taj44]

Yes it is a great day,IF burdening our children and grand children with the massive spending this health care bill will cost.

Actually, the Congressional Budget Office estimated the bill would cut the deficit by $138 billion over the next 10 years through new fees, taxes and cost-saving measures. For that reason, and for the ethical reasons others have stated, I'm thrilled over its passage. We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, and yet so many people in our country have no insurance or access to health care at all. In the long run, this bill will give us almost universal healthcare, while reducing costs. I think we'll get a lot more out of this expenditure than all those years in Iraq.

[Avista]

Lou , 2Young, Tag44, I agree with you!

[Spectreron]

I'm sure everything will be fine....look how well the gov't has done with Indian Reservations, VA Hospitals, Post Office, Soc. Security, Medicare, stimulus spending......

Throw the bums out of office....and start from the top down.

[ijusluvit]

Lou Card's generous spirit is terrific. But the best part of this new health care reform bill is that only those who can most afford it will be required to pay more. Remember, you have to make over 200k PER YEAR as an individual, before your taxes increase to pay for health care reform. My firm belief is that virtually none of those folks whose taxes will increase will experience even the smallest impact on their lifestyle. For them the worst that might happen is to end up choosing a 75-foot instead of an 80-foot yacht.
And for those who say that it is still not fair to single out certain people to pay more, remember that what they've earned, inherited, etc., is in large measure because they live in this great, free country.

[cglenhar]

Finally!

[BlueHeronFan]

I believe the AIM Blog is very bias. Try this on for facts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62K1IV20100321

Oh Reuters is definately a non-biased source.......he said with sarcasm.

What we will see with this Healthcare Bill with be a riviting case of the Laws of Unintended Consequences.

But the taxes kick in first, and the hardest hit will be the middle class. If not right up front, then in the back door to hide it.

But no offense to anybody. Everybody is free to feel any particular way.

[Donna2]

Socialism always says its goal is social justice, but it is still socialism. This country was founded upon individualism, and has prospered because if that. No matter how well meaning your goal is, use of socialism as a political solution will destroy this country. It destroys motivation, and the willingness to take risk. I appreciate your honest feelings, they are well intended I am sure, but that political solution to social problems will destroy our political and economic system and like all countries that used socialism to achieve social justice, we will fail.
Social Security was designed to be a way for the government to force workers to save for retirement by extracting money from their wages in exchange for the promise of a retirement check. THEN it was expanded to those who paid NOTHING into it. THEN it was expanded to pay more than you pay in. It will go broke, that is a mathematic certainty. Medicare is the the same. Medicaid is Socialism, I agree.
Medical care for all is good. But everyone cannot get everything free. It must be limited. Mandatory government medical care for all is a disaster.
Your point is since we already have socialism, we should have more.
My point is we are standing on the edge of economic destruction. I want to back away and look for another solution. We should not try to jump and hope we can fly.

Exactly right. We put a percentage of our pay every week for 50 years into a retirement fund. Now, when it is time to retire, we are told it is everybody's money. Biggest Ponzi scheme in history.

[redwitch]

OK, I am one of those uninsured. Not because I want to be but because I have a pre-existing condition (stage 2/3 melanoma 17 years ago). The only insurance I could find after that was neither workable nor affordable. I'm too young to qualify for Medicare.

Those who know me know I'm not lazy and I'm certainly willing to work. Quite honestly, even if I didn't have a pre-existing condition, I'm not convinced I can afford medical insurance today.

I had major surgery shortly after I moved to TV. I ended up paying for it with the last of my savings. I was lucky that at least I had the savings to pay for it. And I'm young enough and strong to at least have a chance of getting some of that money back before I'm too old to work.

I might qualify for Medicaid. I don't know, I've never tried. Heck, I felt guilty applying for unemployment insurance when I knew it was my money. If this plan will get me affordable medical insurance, I'd be thrilled. My issue is having to waiting four years. That just might be too late. I need some medical care now. There are many in my boat.

While I do believe this is a good start, it may not be enough for many of us. I agree that children need coverage now, but so do the "tweeners." It will still be four long years before we're really part of the plan. That's a long time to wait when your cancer risks have gone up, when all of your youthful bad habits come back to bite you in the rear, when your body has started the aging process and your bones are more brittle.

When I hear people who are receiving Social Security and Medicare complain that this plan is socialism, I have to swallow hard. So. are. their. plans (said through clenched teeth).

Lou, I love your attitude and I thank you for kindness and generosity. This plan is a start. It is not necessarily the best solution, but it certainly is a lot better than what we've had to date.

So, I'm thankful we might have something.

[eweissenbach]

:agree: Applause for Lou!!!! No one knows enough about the actual ramifications of this bill yet, Dems, Repubs, Tea Partiers, Independents, MSNBC, Fox News................. Will there be unintended consequenses? Without a doubt. Can they be fixed - hopefully, yes. The positive is that at last, after sixty years of inability to get any meaningful health care legislation for the masses (medicare/medicade not included), finally something has been enacted. Like the Dems or hate them, they were at least willing to risk their political futures for something in which they beleived, which has been totally lacking in Washington for years.

I think of my neighbors, who bought a lot on the recreational lake where I live five years ago, planning to build their retirement home. That plan was to have culminated in a home three years ago. They have yet to build that home - why? Because the wife got cancer, fought it to remission, but had to delay her plans to retire because she had to keep her job for the health insurance (she was 59 at the time). Now, hopefully, they will be able to get individual insurance and realize their dream of living in what they see as their retirement utopia - just as many of you have realized your dreams living in the Villages.

[RichieLion]

:agree: Applause for Lou!!!! No one knows enough about the actual ramifications of this bill yet, Dems, Repubs, Tea Partiers, Independents, MSNBC, Fox News................. Will there be unintended consequenses? Without a doubt. Can they be fixed - hopefully, yes. The positive is that at last, after sixty years of inability to get any meaningful health care legislation for the masses (medicare/medicade not included), finally something has been enacted. Like the Dems or hate them, they were at least willing to risk their political futures for something in which they beleived, which has been totally lacking in Washington for years.

I think of my neighbors, who bought a lot on the recreational lake where I live five years ago, planning to build their retirement home. That plan was to have culminated in a home three years ago. They have yet to build that home - why? Because the wife got cancer, fought it to remission, but had to delay her plans to retire because she had to keep her job for the health insurance (she was 59 at the time). Now, hopefully, they will be able to get individual insurance and realize their dream of living in what they see as their retirement utopia - just as many of you have realized your dreams living in the Villages.
Not to demean your friends, who undoubtedly had some setbacks due to health concerns, but I had to delay my retirement because I had to feed my family and send my children to college and pay the mortgage on my house. Now, if there was a bill that would have made my neighbors pay for that, I might have supported it. Also I think that I should be able to buy homeowner's insurance when my house is burning down. Why should I have to buy it before I know if anything is going to happen? I know my thoughts might appear insensitive and thats what the Democrats who've taken over our daily determination of our own lives counted on.
God bless our once great nation.

[JimJoe]

The CBO estimate did not include the $200 billion doctor medicare fix because the supporters wanted to not count that, it includes 10 years of revenue but only 6 years of benefits, and it assumes $500 billion dollars in savings from fraud and abuse which never has been saved and never will. You are really thrilled about that?? CBO calculates what ever garbage you give it. This is phony accounting, pure and simple.

Actually, the Congressional Budget Office estimated the bill would cut the deficit by $138 billion over the next 10 years through new fees, taxes and cost-saving measures. For that reason, and for the ethical reasons others have stated, I'm thrilled over its passage. We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world, and yet so many people in our country have no insurance or access to health care at all. In the long run, this bill will give us almost universal healthcare, while reducing costs. I think we'll get a lot more out of this expenditure than all those years in Iraq.

[Rag Bagger]

It's about time. After years of a constipated congress we finally have a health care bill start.

Having minimal pre-existing conditions has kept us from permanently moving to Florida. We are under 65 and have to buy our own health insurance. Since Florida laws do not force the insurance companies to write coverage we have to maintain our original home back north were we already have and have been buying health care insurance for 15 years. Up untill then we had employer group policies.

If nothing else the bill will force insurance companies to write coverage and they will not be able to cherry pick customers. In our home state they had a pool for high risk customers. All the insurance companies were forced to take their percentage of high risk customers. It is not a free ride those policies are very expensive but at least they are available.

By the way at our age (over 60 but under 65) who doesn't have pre-existing conditions. Mine was 10 pounds overweight and I take a high blood pressure medication. I have taken that medication for 15 years and it has maintained my pressure. Two small conditions caused my rejection. The weight is off now I am 30 pounds under but it will take a year for BC/BS to accep it as changed.

[Halle]

:agree:

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

It is wonderful to read so many unselfish responses from people who have healthcare coverage but still see the need for healthcare reform. I like Lou am retired military and also have TRICARE as my medical insurance. I'm very hopeful this bill will lead to affordable healthcare for everyone in our country.

:mademyday:

[JimJoe]

I see.. you think people like me who pay taxes should cover her bills so she can use her money to buy a home I cannot afford. That is so wrong.

:agree: Applause for Lou!!!! No one knows enough about the actual ramifications of this bill yet, Dems, Repubs, Tea Partiers, Independents, MSNBC, Fox News................. Will there be unintended consequenses? Without a doubt. Can they be fixed - hopefully, yes. The positive is that at last, after sixty years of inability to get any meaningful health care legislation for the masses (medicare/medicade not included), finally something has been enacted. Like the Dems or hate them, they were at least willing to risk their political futures for something in which they beleived, which has been totally lacking in Washington for years.

I think of my neighbors, who bought a lot on the recreational lake where I live five years ago, planning to build their retirement home. That plan was to have culminated in a home three years ago. They have yet to build that home - why? Because the wife got cancer, fought it to remission, but had to delay her plans to retire because she had to keep her job for the health insurance (she was 59 at the time). Now, hopefully, they will be able to get individual insurance and realize their dream of living in what they see as their retirement utopia - just as many of you have realized your dreams living in the Villages.

[Donna2]

Not to demean your friends, who undoubtedly had some setbacks due to health concerns, but I had to delay my retirement because I had to feed my family and send my children to college and pay the mortgage on my house. Now, if there was a bill that would have made my neighbors pay for that, I might have supported it. Also I think that I should be able to buy homeowner's insurance when my house is burning down. Why should I have to buy it before I know if anything is going to happen? I know my thoughts might appear insensitive and thats what the Democrats who've taken over our daily determination of our own lives counted on.
God bless our once great nation.

I agree with you Richie.

Interesting read:

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/1790/from-the-nanny-state-to-the-bully-state

[JimJoe]

If you had insurance when you diagnosed with your melanoma, you should be able to continue and transfer your insurance where ever you live or work. That would get near unanimous approval by both parties.

Why didn't you buy insurance with a waiver of your preexisting condition so that you would at least have coverage for all other conditions including the medical care you need now?

OK, I am one of those uninsured. Not because I want to be but because I have a pre-existing condition (stage 2/3 melanoma 17 years ago). The only insurance I could find after that was neither workable nor affordable. I'm too young to qualify for Medicare.

Those who know me know I'm not lazy and I'm certainly willing to work. Quite honestly, even if I didn't have a pre-existing condition, I'm not convinced I can afford medical insurance today.

I had major surgery shortly after I moved to TV. I ended up paying for it with the last of my savings. I was lucky that at least I had the savings to pay for it. And I'm young enough and strong to at least have a chance of getting some of that money back before I'm too old to work.

I might qualify for Medicaid. I don't know, I've never tried. Heck, I felt guilty applying for unemployment insurance when I knew it was my money. If this plan will get me affordable medical insurance, I'd be thrilled. My issue is having to waiting four years. That just might be too late. I need some medical care now. There are many in my boat.

While I do believe this is a good start, it may not be enough for many of us. I agree that children need coverage now, but so do the "tweeners." It will still be four long years before we're really part of the plan. That's a long time to wait when your cancer risks have gone up, when all of your youthful bad habits come back to bite you in the rear, when your body has started the aging process and your bones are more brittle.

When I hear people who are receiving Social Security and Medicare complain that this plan is socialism, I have to swallow hard. So. are. their. plans (said through clenched teeth).

Lou, I love your attitude and I thank you for kindness and generosity. This plan is a start. It is not necessarily the best solution, but it certainly is a lot better than what we've had to date.

So, I'm thankful we might have something.

[JUREK]

I agree with you Richie.

Interesting read:

http://www.ipa.org.au/publications/1790/from-the-nanny-state-to-the-bully-state


Donna2: Very good article , Thanks

[Xavier]

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

In answer to the original question - It will go down in history as the day that a GREAT Country began it's journey to beyond greatness - The baseline for taking care of all of our citizens. If it costs more, so be it! Greed and selfishness be damned.

Lou Card: I love my neighbors, every one of them, but I'm sure we could find a spot for you in our neighborhood! What a fantastic addition to The Villages you'll make.

Xavier

[eweissenbach]

:agree: 1000%

[Bucco]

In answer to the original question - It will go down in history as the day that a GREAT Country began it's journey to beyond greatness - The baseline for taking care of all of our citizens. If it costs more, so be it! Greed and selfishness be damned.

Lou Card: I love my neighbors, every one of them, but I'm sure we could find a spot for you in our neighborhood! What a fantastic addition to The Villages you'll make.

Xavier


Simply said, I am fed up with those who are so happy today, implying or flat out saying that those of us who do not support this bill are "greedy" or "selfish". That, to me, is a sign of protesting much too much.

Most folks who oppose it do so on grounds of what is good for this country...the bill DOES NOT address costs which was the primary reason given at the beginning of this debate.

All of us have a right to our opinion, but please lets not be condemning people who opposed it as selfish or greedy ! May I also add that including Medicaire in your rants about us old folks is unfair...I paid quite a bit of money INTO the government...it was not GIVEN to me as you imply !

[cashman]

WE will soon find out that this bill ( if it really does becomes law) will not cover everyone.

[Donna2]

This could be the first time in American history where the generation coming in will be worse off then the generation going out. Now that is certainly not something I am proud of. For the first time in my life, I am not proud to be an American.

[macro]

What everyone seems to be missing here is that the bill has very little to do with health care REFORM! It is nothing more than expansion of government. They will be adding more agencies to deal with this and 16,000 more IRS agent to handle enforcement of their mandate, not to mention all the pay-offs to contributors. Nobody has been able to read the bill and understand all of the consquences yet but we are supposed to shut up and take their word for it. What does any lawyer always tell you? Read and understand what you are signing before you sign anything. These are mostly lawyers in congress and they tell us that until the bill is passed we won't know what's all in it. Trust Them???? Why??? I too believe in charity and the American people are the most giving in the world. Look at our relief efforts in the face of disasters. First on the scene with the most help and equipment. Yes we need reform in health care but let us deal with it, not some government beauracracy. What have they ever done profitably without excessive cost and corruption of the intent?

[Lou Card]

I am very humbled by so many responses to what I wrote and hope to meet as many of you as we can when we arrive. Our house is now Pending contract and if all gos well we will close on 30 April. We hope to moved down and into a home by the 4th of July. It would be nice not to have to change my name in order to live in The Villages.

Also, a big thank you to the monitor or host of this site that has kept it clean and safe. I am sure that there is a few angry folks out there that are throwing darts at my opinion on the bill. If there are feeling of anger out there, then I apologize as my intent was to give an honest opinion and not to insult anyone or anyones beliefs or values.:undecided:

Lou Card

[Xavier]

This could be the first time in American history where the generation coming in will be worse off then the generation going out. Now that is certainly not something I am proud of. For the first time in my life, I am not proud to be an American.

OMG! I think you may have not been introduced to the current generation. It has been our own doing - if you are not proud to be an American I guess we can only blame ourselves. I think this is probably the beginning of turning that around. I predict that the loyal opposition will destroy itself while trying to reverse progress. A new dawning is a coming!

[RayB]

While the bill leaves a lot to be desired, I was encouraged when the bill was passed. At least health care problems will start to be corrected by this bill as it gets a foot in the door. Refinements, revisions, adjustments, etc. can be added in the future as deficits and problems in the bill become highlighted. This was the situation with the establishment of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Medigap, Veterans Health Care, Chip, State and Federal Government employee health care programs, etc.

I am bewildered by people who refer to "Socialism", "government take over" etc. of health care. Over half of the nation is on government health care programs of some form when considering all of the health care programs listed above. I believe over ninety five percent of those on the above listed programs would not want any of those government programs taken away from them. Medicare is the best thing to happen to us in our lifetime.

[beartrack]

This thread is asking " What do I think of the health bill ? " Well unlike many of the posters here ( no disrespect intended ) I, like most members of Congress and most, if not all of you, have not read all 2700 pages of this monstrosity filled with blah, blah, blah of legalese that most of us would not understand even if we have read it, much less memorized it. The proof for me that all of our members of congress have not read it, is the outcome of the vote itself. All Dems aye and all Reps nay. That convinces me that on both sides of the aisle it was politics as usual. All the sheep being led to the slaughter by their respective leaders. By the way, did anyone out there finish reading and understanding what you read in 72 hours ? This bill is far too important for our beloved country for anyone to guess about what it means, or to try to convince others based on personal agendas. What is good for one group, may be a mortal wound for another. I am dead set against this bill not because of Medicare, Abortion or any other of its provisions but, because of the way it was shoved down our throats by an inept congress that could not take a time out from their hateful partison wrangling to present the American people with a bill that we had time to read and much more, to understand. What do " I ' think of this bill ? It is a disgrace. Not because of it's content, but because, truth be told, none of us fully understand it.

[redwitch]

If you had insurance when you diagnosed with your melanoma, you should be able to continue and transfer your insurance where ever you live or work. That would get near unanimous approval by both parties.

Why didn't you buy insurance with a waiver of your preexisting condition so that you would at least have coverage for all other conditions including the medical care you need now?

I kept my COBRA for the 18 months I was allowed. When it ran out, my insurer refused to renew. A new policy was offered at $5,000/month with a $20,000 deductible and included a waiver for any recurrence of the melonoma. I looked for other policies and was turned down before I could say boo. I did offer me coverage with a waiver for any and all cancers, plus a waiver for any and all bone injuries, immune issues (including arthritis), gynecological problems and a few other exclusions that I can't remember now. Sounded pretty worthless to me. Of course, it was cheaper -- only $1,500/month.

So, I'm without insurance and hoping and praying I don't get seriously ill or have an accident or ....

[sam&rog]

Any one from Mass. can tell you they have mandatory health insurance.
There is a form to state your insurance in the state income tax booklet.
You can be penalized for not having insurance. Strangely the bill was signed by Mitt Romney when he was governor.

[saratogaman]

I'd rather go with a few facts.

http://www.aim.org/briefing/myths-about-socialized-medicine/

"Facts" from that group? AIM (self-proclaimed 'Accuracy in Media')is the same group that called for napalming the rebels in El Salvador and nuking Iraq in the first Gulf War.

Let's get over it: health INSURANCE reform has made it. Time to move on to other things such as jobs, immigration, getting out of Iraq, reinstating some oversight on the financial industry so as not to repeat recent history, etc.

Win some, lose some...move on Americans.

[ejp52]

I am very humbled by so many responses to what I wrote and hope to meet as many of you as we can when we arrive. Our house is now Pending contract and if all gos well we will close on 30 April. We hope to moved down and into a home by the 4th of July. It would be nice not to have to change my name in order to live in The Villages.

Also, a big thank you to the monitor or host of this site that has kept it clean and safe. I am sure that there is a few angry folks out there that are throwing darts at my opinion on the bill. If there are feeling of anger out there, then I apologize as my intent was to give an honest opinion and not to insult anyone or anyones beliefs or values.:undecided:

Lou Card
Hey Lou,just because we disagree on this topic,doesn't mean you won't be more than welcome here and treated as a friend. Don't sweat it,everyone has their opinion.
Agree to disagree and so be it.
I'll buy the 1st round of adult beverages. :beer3:

[Allen]

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

I'm sorry, but I just can not let this stand...

There are so many things wrong with this comment that I hardly know where to begin. Therefore I will simply address a few of the most troubling remarks with which I take exception. First of all, where in the Constitution is anyone given the power to take money from others to provide benefits for those who do not pay their own way? I know we have already started down this road, but it’s the wrong road and under this administration it’s getting wider. If individual citizens voluntarily choose to provide for others in need with their own money (which many do) they should certainly be respected. If however, someone takes (or demands) money from others to do so, that is no less than thievery… no matter how “noble” the intentions.

I and my family have been without health care benefits, yet we found a way to pay for our insurance by working harder and cutting back on other expenditures… even though we would not have “died for lack of health care“. If we were in need of treatment, we would have received it… as we all well know.

But now, thanks to some who are so generous (with other people’s money), I guess I will no longer worry about paying. Why should I? Someone else will pay for my insurance whenever I need it! In the meantime, I’ll just pay the fine… it will be a lot cheaper than what my premium will be after 30+ million other “non payers” are added to the system. Anyone who says they understand freedom, yet expects others to be forced to pay for those who do not, needs to rethink that idea.

Are pre-existing conditions a problem? Absolutely. Is the health insurance industry in need of reform? No question about it. But, to “fundamentally transform” this nation into a Marxist state is not the answer. There are, and were, many other ways to address these issues that were suggested… and ignored!

This bill is not about healthcare. It is about the implementation of a political ideology. One that will work about as well as “The War on Poverty” which did nothing more than sap initiative and self respect while increasing the numbers of people dependent on the state. This is just one more step in the creation of the “American Socialist Republic”.

Finally, as a near victim of abortion myself, I wonder how anyone who agrees with the above quote regarding abortion would respond to the idea of undergoing an immediate “retroactive” abortion themselves? After all, it will avoid the inevitable suffering due to the healthcare rationing that is coming our way with the promised Medicare cuts. Don’t think of it as murder (or someone arbitrarily taking YOUR life)… think of it as… “an act of kindness”.

Are you outraged by the idea of “retroactive“ abortions for those in favor of tax payer funding for abortion?

If so, I ask you… Who could applaud this procedure when it is applied to the most innocent among us… the unborn?

Not anyone who is “Pro Life", that’s for sure.

[grandma-annie]

Well JimJoe, with 34 million Americans uninsured, I would say charity is not working very well so lets have everyone give a little more of themselves. I just can't see how helping the sick can be a loss of freedom. I am a 22 year military retired man and I understand and respect freedom. If I need to pay more taxes to help the sick and the poor of this country, then I gladly do so. I will sacrifice for my Family and to me every human on earth is part of my extended family. When I see people dying because of the lack of preventative medicine and proper health care, I don't feel any pride in knowing that I have great health care while millions of people have none. Some say "I worked hard for what I have". Does that mean that the maid that cleans up after you in your hotel room does not work hard or the cook in the diner where you eat your breakfast has an easy job. I don't care if you were born with the old silver spoon in your mouth or you were fortunate enough to make it big in the business world, to think you deserve more than the unfortunate ones among us is a selfish act of personal greed. For every lazy man sitting on the porch that I agree does not deserve free health care, there are many many more working poor that just can not afford health care no matter how many hours they put it at their no health care job. The same people that scream pro life say nay to prenatal health care for the uninsured and that alone accounts for thousands of deaths in the 7th, 8th and even 9th month of pregnancy. I am strongly against abortion, but I see abortion as an act of kindness when compared to a life of misery due to lack of early childcare that causes so much suffering to children. So if like me, you are Pro Life, then accept this health care bill as one more way of sustaining life at all ages from conception all the way to the very old.

Lou

Thanks Lou, for saying what needed to be said.... I am proud of your post. :agree:

[Donna2]

I'm sorry, but I just can not let this stand...

There are so many things wrong with this comment that I hardly know where to begin. Therefore I will simply address a few of the most troubling remarks with which I take exception. First of all, where in the Constitution is anyone given the power to take money from others to provide benefits for those who do not pay their own way? I know we have already started down this road, but it’s the wrong road and under this administration it’s getting wider. If individual citizens voluntarily choose to provide for others in need with their own money (which many do) they should certainly be respected. If however, someone takes (or demands) money from others to do so, that is no less than thievery… no matter how “noble” the intentions.

I and my family have been without health care benefits, yet we found a way to pay for our insurance by working harder and cutting back on other expenditures… even though we would not have “died for lack of health care“. If we were in need of treatment, we would have received it… as we all well know.

But now, thanks to some who are so generous (with other people’s money), I guess I will no longer worry about paying. Why should I? Someone else will pay for my insurance whenever I need it! In the meantime, I’ll just pay the fine… it will be a lot cheaper than what my premium will be after 30+ million other “non payers” are added to the system. Anyone who says they understand freedom, yet expects others to be forced to pay for those who do not, needs to rethink that idea.

Are pre-existing conditions problem? Absolutely. Is the health insurance industry in need of reform? No question about it. But, to “fundamentally transform” this nation into a Marxist state is not the answer. There are, and were, many other ways to address these issues that were suggested… and ignored!

This bill is not about healthcare. It is about the implementation of a political ideology. One that will work about as well as “The War on Poverty” which did nothing more than sap initiative and self respect while increasing the numbers of people dependent on the state. This is just one more step in the creation of the “American Socialist Republic”.

Finally, as a near victim of abortion myself, I wonder how anyone who agrees with the above quote regarding abortion would respond to the idea of undergoing an immediate “retroactive” abortion themselves? After all, it will avoid the inevitable suffering due to the healthcare rationing that is coming our way with the promised Medicare cuts. Don’t think of it as murder (or someone arbitrarily taking YOUR life)… think of it as… “an act of kindness”.

Are you outraged by the idea of “retroactive“ abortions for those in favor of tax payer funding for abortion?

If so, I ask you… Who could applaud this procedure when it is applied to the most innocent among us… the unborn?

Not anyone who is “Pro Life", that’s for sure.

Great post Allen and you articulated it perfectly.

[Bosoxfan]

[QUOTE=Allen;255645]I'm sorry, but I just can not let this stand...

There are so many things wrong with this comment that I hardly know where to begin. Therefore I will simply address a few of the most troubling remarks with which I take exception. First of all, where in the Constitution is anyone given the power to take money from others to provide benefits for those who do not pay their own way? I know we have already started down this road, but it’s the wrong road and under this administration it’s getting wider. If individual citizens voluntarily choose to provide for others in need with their own money (which many do) they should certainly be respected. If however, someone takes (or demands) money from others to do so, that is no less than thievery… no matter how “noble” the intentions.

I and my family have been without health care benefits, yet we found a way to pay for our insurance by working harder and cutting back on other expenditures… even though we would not have “died for lack of health care“. If we were in need of treatment, we would have received it… as we all well know.

But now, thanks to some who are so generous (with other people’s money), I guess I will no longer worry about paying. Why should I? Someone else will pay for my insurance whenever I need it! In the meantime, I’ll just pay the fine… it will be a lot cheaper than what my premium will be after 30+ million other “non payers” are added to the system. Anyone who says they understand freedom, yet expects others to be forced to pay for those who do not, needs to rethink that idea.

Are pre-existing conditions a problem? Absolutely. Is the health insurance industry in need of reform? No question about it. But, to “fundamentally transform” this nation into a Marxist state is not the answer. There are, and were, many other ways to address these issues that were suggested… and ignored!

This bill is not about healthcare. It is about the implementation of a political ideology. One that will work about as well as “The War on Poverty” which did nothing more than sap initiative and self respect while increasing the numbers of people dependent on the state. This is just one more step in the creation of the “American Socialist Republic”.

:agree:



Allen -Excellent post....you took the words right out of my mouth...Thanks:clap2:

[Boomer]

In answer to the original question - It will go down in history as the day that a GREAT Country began it's journey to beyond greatness - The baseline for taking care of all of our citizens. If it costs more, so be it! Greed and selfishness be damned.

Lou Card: I love my neighbors, every one of them, but I'm sure we could find a spot for you in our neighborhood! What a fantastic addition to The Villages you'll make.

Xavier

:boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom:

Please don't be scared, Xavier. Those are fireworks! I have insurance, but I also can see past the "I" in the word. Maybe I should live in your village, too.

I am quite conscious of the fiscal side of things. And re. that part, I think that "unrestrained greed is not only bad morals, it's bad economics." (see the banking industry for an illustration thereof) And we cannot as a nation continue to allow insurance companies to hamstring so many hardworking Americans.

Boomer :wave:

[Don H]

The government already owns healthcare for more than half of the people,
including Medicare, military, and the Indian Health Service. Funny how most of the people who already HAVE SOCIALIZED health care are the ones
complaining the loudest about others and their needs! I got mine, screw the rest of you! If you hate SOCIALISM so much, please pay for your own insurance. (and while your at it, please send the government your SS checks!Well said!!

[Villages Kahuna]

...lowest priced and quality health care you will ever have....

Easily said, Billie. But the statistics don't back you up. The cost of healthcare in the U.S. is double that of the country in second place in the cost per capita list of healthcare costs. And that doesn't address the fact that all the developed countries on the list with substantially lower costs than our own provide universal healthcare to all their citizens. We won't actually do that until 2014.

The Organisation for Economic and Co-operation and Development [OECD] released the “OECD Health Data 2009” report which compares the health care statistics across OECD countries.

Some of the key points from this study comparing the U.S. health care system with other countries are listed below:

The total spending for health care accounted for 16% of the U.S.’s GDP, the highest share among the OECD and almost double the OECD average
The public share of health care expenditure in the USA (45%) is less than any other OECD country
Despite spending the most, the U.S. provides health care coverage for only the elderly, disabled and some of the poor people. More than 10% of the U.S. population has no access to healthcare at all. In comparison, the same amount is enough to provide universal health care insurance by the government for all citizens in other OECD countries
35% of total health care expenditures is provided by private health insurance which is the highest In OCED
Despite the high medical expenditure,there are fewer doctors per capita in the U.S. than most other OECD countries
Life expectancy in the U.S. is lower when compared with Japan, Switzerland, Canada and Australia
Infant morality rates in the U.S. is higher than most OECD countries. In 2006, it was 6.7 per live births relative to OECD average of 4.7

------------------
Like I said, Billie, the statistics simply don't back you up. What the statistic do tell us is, with our current healthcare system Americans aren't coming close to getting their money's worth.

[Donna2]

Those statistics have been combed over so many times and proven inaccurate because every country obtains their figures using different formulas. But I have a feeling you knew that.

[Pebbles]

:boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom:

Please don't be scared, Xavier. Those are fireworks! I have insurance, but I also can see past the "I" in the word. Maybe I should live in your village, too.

I am quite conscious of the fiscal side of things. And re. that part, I think that "unrestrained greed is not only bad morals, it's bad economics." (see the banking industry for an illustration thereof) And we cannot as a nation continue to allow insurance companies to hamstring so many hardworking Americans.

Boomer :wave:


:agree:


I liked your fireworks!!!

To the greedy insurance companies . . . . :girlneener:

[DDoug]

We are in a new country USSA United Soviet Socialists of America. Watch and see what comes next.

[graciegirl]

Deleted.

[Avista]

We follow the work ethic. I had breast cancer. Fortunately, just AFTER treatment we lost our health insurance and were too young for Medicare. When I think of what could have happened if our insurance was taken from us before or during treatment, I shudder. We were able to get another policy, but it was extremely expensive with a very high deductible and excluded cancer and cancer treatment.

Medicare was a lifesaver.

[BobKat1]

We are in a new country USSA United Soviet Socialists of America. Watch and see what comes next.

Deleted...

[cashman]

I think you may be correct; however, even if that is the case, I agree to pay more and get less if it helps relieve the suffering of those that cannot get access to health care at all.

Lou

Where did you get the idea that there are people in the USA who "cannot get access to health care at all".

The law for most of my lifetime has been quite clear: It is illegal to refuse healthcare to anyone in the USA by most providers.

You are confused. Did you mean people without health insurance?

[rshoffer]

What does everyone think about it?I think the Constitutional challenges will be interesting... especially since they will end up in the lap of The Supreme Court. Recall the fiasco at the State of the Union address.

[eweissenbach]

This thread reinforces my decision to stay the hell away from the politics forum. I will end up despising people I may otherwise find likeable. It seems that political discussion generally brings out the worst confrontational sides of many people.

[BobKat1]

This thread reinforces my decision to stay the hell away from the politics forum. I will end up despising people I may otherwise find likeable. It seems that political discussion generally brings out the worst confrontational sides of many people.

Amen to that!!!

[Boomer]

Hey! I’ve got an idea! How about everybody who wants to give an opinion in this thread also tells the readers where their own health insurance comes from. That could be interesting.

I’ll start.

Mr. Boomer and I each have access to recognized group plans through our former employers. A part of it is paid by those employers, but our share grows and grows with each annual renewal. We are not to Medicare yet. We do not like the constant increases as we pay more for less coverage. We pay those costs. But there are those who have worked just as hard as we have, through all these boomer-years, only to now find themselves being hit harder and harder to the point of having their retirement dreams held hostage by what they have to pay for coverage – if they can find it at all.

Do I hear some of you scratching your heads and asking, “Hey! Boomer! What’s your problem? Sounds like you got it covered. Sounds like you have figured out how to pay through the nose. Why are you glad to see the healthcare bill pass? And didn’t you used to be a Republican? Like maybe almost all your voting life? And aren’t you an investor in the stock market?”

Well, I hear you, and I could write about all of those questions. And I actually have a couple of things cooking over in Word. But I am not sure I want to get into it – a time issue makes it an ROI issue.

As one who has chosen not to enter the political forum, I was so glad to see this thread appear here in the main forum. I think it has been given special dispensation because the topic has stepped beyond politics and into history. I hope it can remain here for our opinions to be shared. Can we walk that tightrope? I do not know. But I would not bet on it.

And, of course, I know that it is not all perfect. But the refusal by so many to even acknowledge the problem, or to address it, has taken us closer and closer to turning the USA into a plutocracy sliding into place assisted by those who want a theocracy. I believe in Democracy.

…………

Wow! I sure did digress on that one. Oh my! -- uh, please refer back to the first part of this post if you want to see what I intended to talk about.

Boomer

[billethkid]

:shrug:

[ijusluvit]

Hey! I’ve got an idea! How about everybody who wants to give an opinion in this thread also tells the readers where their own health insurance comes from. That could be interesting.

I’ll start.

Mr. Boomer and I each have access to recognized group plans through our former employers. A part of it is paid by those employers, but our share grows and grows with each annual renewal. We are not to Medicare yet. We do not like the constant increases as we pay more for less coverage. We pay those costs. But there are those who have worked just as hard as we have, through all these boomer-years, only to now find themselves being hit harder and harder to the point of having their retirement dreams held hostage by what they have to pay for coverage – if they can find it at all.

Do I hear some of you scratching your heads and asking, “Hey! Boomer! What’s your problem? Sounds like you got it covered. Sounds like you have figured out how to pay through the nose. Why are you glad to see the healthcare bill pass? And didn’t you used to be a Republican? Like maybe almost all your voting life? And aren’t you an investor in the stock market?”

Well, I hear you, and I could write about all of those questions. And I actually have a couple of things cooking over in Word. But I am not sure I want to get into it – a time issue makes it an ROI issue.

As one who has chosen not to enter the political forum, I was so glad to see this thread appear here in the main forum. I think it has been given special dispensation because the topic has stepped beyond politics and into history. I hope it can remain here for our opinions to be shared. Can we walk that tightrope? I do not know. But I would not bet on it.

And, of course, I know that it is not all perfect. But the refusal by so many to even acknowledge the problem, or to address it, has taken us closer and closer to turning the USA into a plutocracy sliding into place assisted by those who want a theocracy. I believe in Democracy.

…………

Wow! I sure did digress on that one. Oh my! -- uh, please refer back to the first part of this post if you want to see what I intended to talk about.

Boomer

Hat's off to Boomer! What a great post! And what better example could there be that comments like this on this historic event belong in general discussion.

[Xavier]

:boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom: :boom:

Please don't be scared, Xavier. Those are fireworks! I have insurance, but I also can see past the "I" in the word. Maybe I should live in your village, too. .....

Boomer :wave:

Now that would be a wondrous thing! There are also so many others who have shown their ability to think and care and would also make nice additions to our village. This thread has demonstrated that people are good, generous, and do want to look out for their fellow man and make this a better world. :D

[JoInTV]

I so agree with ewissenbach! Just reading through this thread has brought on such sadness for me. What has become of us all?? Such venom! Such hatefulness! And, Boomer, I have always enjoyed your posts and hope that one day, if and when we are both able to move to TV, that we will meet. You are indeed someone whom I would like to call Friend.

I fear that those of us in the middle, trying desperately to come to some fair, middle ground will be beaten to death by the asylum inmates at both ends of the debate with their ‘take-no-prisoners” attitude.

Right now, my husband and I are covered under my husband’s employer’s healthcare plan. Is it great? No, I don’t think so, considering that his employer is a Fortune 500 global company. I’ve worked at smaller companies with better coverage and premiums. But, I am truly thankful that we have insurance. If we retire before being able to sign up for Medicare (which we would certainly like to do, and as many of you have done), we can avail ourselves of my husband’s plan, but at a very high cost - almost $18,000 per year, plus prescriptions (which will add another $2,500 annually). That’s in today’s dollars, with no future premium increases, no more prescriptions for either my husband or me, and no additional health complications. (And the present cost for prescriptions includes 3 generics. The other 2 are not yet in generic form. So, yes, we are looking for the most cost effective prescriptions possible at this time.) But we are quite fortunate that, if push came to shove, we could cover it. We would just have to economize in other ways. I know that there are many Americans that simply can’t. No way; no how; no amount of economizing would help.

Did I hope that the provision to extend Medicare to those as young as 55 was left in the health bill? You bet your sweet life I did! But, as with most negotiations, some things have to be left on the table. Does that make me want to go for the negotiators’ throats?? NO! I’m hoping that there are enough good things still intact to outweigh the not-so-good or at least the provisions that don’t directly affect me in a positive way. It’s not all about me. It’s not all about any one of you out there, either. Is this new program perfect? Hell, no! But, it is a start. I believe that it is a case of “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.” We have much to do, but I fear that we won’t be up to the task because too many people are so blinded by their own biases and agendas (on both sides of the aisle). I picture them like a bunch of little kids with their hands over their ears, loudly singing la,la,la,la, so they can’t (and won’t) hear what the other is saying.

Well, I’m sure that my little soapbox oration won’t make a dent in the debate, but it was something that I just had to get off my chest.

[Donna2]

We are in a new country USSA United Soviet Socialists of America. Watch and see what comes next.

I agree. It is kind of funny. I have this vision of people holding hands and singing "we are the world" Wait till the bills come in.

[Number 6]

My last post disappeared?

Me too, but I guess that it was "political" in nature.

Anyway, all I really want to say is that the process was rotten and the outcome worse. In this society we should only promise equality of opportunity, not equality of result. Philanthropy is wonderful, forced charity is theft.

[billethkid]

That was not the intention, what so ever. That cannot be said for some of the many other jabs in the thread.

No struggle no progress!!

btk

[JUREK]

Me too, but I guess that it was "political" in nature.

Anyway, all I really want to say is that the process was rotten and the outcome worse. In this society we should only promise equality of opportunity, not equality of result. Philanthropy is wonderful, forced charity is theft.

I posted earlier and it also disappeared.

[Pebbles]

Hey! I’ve got an idea! How about everybody who wants to give an opinion in this thread also tells the readers where their own health insurance comes from. That could be interesting.

I’ll start.

Mr. Boomer and I each have access to recognized group plans through our former employers. A part of it is paid by those employers, but our share grows and grows with each annual renewal. We are not to Medicare yet. We do not like the constant increases as we pay more for less coverage. We pay those costs. But there are those who have worked just as hard as we have, through all these boomer-years, only to now find themselves being hit harder and harder to the point of having their retirement dreams held hostage by what they have to pay for coverage – if they can find it at all.

Do I hear some of you scratching your heads and asking, “Hey! Boomer! What’s your problem? Sounds like you got it covered. Sounds like you have figured out how to pay through the nose. Why are you glad to see the healthcare bill pass? And didn’t you used to be a Republican? Like maybe almost all your voting life? And aren’t you an investor in the stock market?”

Well, I hear you, and I could write about all of those questions. And I actually have a couple of things cooking over in Word. But I am not sure I want to get into it – a time issue makes it an ROI issue.

As one who has chosen not to enter the political forum, I was so glad to see this thread appear here in the main forum. I think it has been given special dispensation because the topic has stepped beyond politics and into history. I hope it can remain here for our opinions to be shared. Can we walk that tightrope? I do not know. But I would not bet on it.

And, of course, I know that it is not all perfect. But the refusal by so many to even acknowledge the problem, or to address it, has taken us closer and closer to turning the USA into a plutocracy sliding into place assisted by those who want a theocracy. I believe in Democracy.

…………

Wow! I sure did digress on that one. Oh my! -- uh, please refer back to the first part of this post if you want to see what I intended to talk about.

Boomer



Thank you for an excellent post Boomer!

[BobKat1]

How about a forum for "Moderates"? I'd sign up for that one.

[Villages Kahuna]

Those statistics have been combed over so many times and proven inaccurate because every country obtains their figures using different formulas. But I have a feeling you knew that.

C'mon, Donna. That's an easy response to make....allege that the statistics are wrong.

I don't know what you mean by "combed over", but I'll challenge you to provide current statistics from any credible source showing that American healthcare is not the most expensive in the world, and that our health by any measure is comparable to that in any of the other developed countries that have universal healthcare.

When I say a "credible source" I mean one with a reputation for an ability to research questions regarding healthcare, not just some blog, political organization or partisan think tank which opines that the statistics are wrong.

I'll wait.

[bkcunningham1]

VK, the comparative ranking system comes from the U.N.'s World Health Organiztion. The Overall Performance, where the U.S. is rated 37th, is adjusted to reflect how well WHO officials believe that a country could have done in relations to its resources. Like it's title says, WHO promotes universal healthcare. The US doesn't have universal healthcare, thus the lower ranking.

An excellent article by Mark B. Constantian, a plastic and reconstructive surgeon in New Hampshire, in the Wall Street Journal offers another way to look at WHO's very subjective numbers.

"What apparently does not matter is that our population has universal access because most physicians treat indigent patients without charge and accept Medicare and Medicaid payments, which do not even cover overhead expenses. The WHO does rank the U.S. No. 1 of 191 countries for `responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient.' Isn't responsiveess what health care is all about? "

While everyone seems to be tearing down our current, imperfect healthcare system, some other noteworthing points:

* Data assembled by Dr. Ronald Wenger and published recently in the Bulletin of the American College of Surgeons indicates that cardiac deaths in the U.S. have fallen by two-thirds over the past 50 years.
* Polio has been virtually eradicated.
* Childhood leukemia has a high cure rate.
* Eight of the top 10 medical advances in the past 20 years were developed or had roots in the U.S.
* The Nobel Prizes in medicine and physiology have been awarded to more Americans than to researchers in all other countries combined.
* Eight of the 10 top-selling drugs in the world were developed by U.S. companies.
* The U.S. has some of the highest breast, colon and prostate cancer survival rates in the world
* And our country ranks first or second in the world in kidney transplants, liver transplants, heart transplants, total knee replacements, coronary artery bypass, and percutaneous coronary interventions.
* We have the shortest waiting time for nonemergency surgery in the world; England has one of the longest. In Canada, a country of 35 million citizens, 1 million patients now wait for surgery and another million wait to see specialists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704130904574644230678102274.html

[BethS]

The government already owns healthcare for more than half of the people,
including Medicare, military, and the Indian Health Service. Funny how most of the people who already HAVE SOCIALIZED health care are the ones
complaining the loudest about others and their needs! I got mine, screw the rest of you! If you hate SOCIALISM so much, please pay for your own insurance. (and while your at it, please send the government your SS checks!
Its change and people are afraid of change, I believe change is growth, to do nothing is just more of the same.

[BethS]

Glad to meet you Lou, a truly sensible man.

[Donna2]

VK, the comparative ranking system comes from the U.N.'s World Health Organiztion. The Overall Performance, where the U.S. is rated 37th, is adjusted to reflect how well WHO officials believe that a country could have done in relations to its resources. Like it's title says, WHO promotes universal healthcare. The US doesn't have universal healthcare, thus the lower ranking.

An excellent article by Mark B. Constantian, a plastic and reconstructive surgeon in New Hampshire, in the Wall Street Journal offers another way to look at WHO's very subjective numbers.

"What apparently does not matter is that our population has universal access because most physicians treat indigent patients without charge and accept Medicare and Medicaid payments, which do not even cover overhead expenses. The WHO does rank the U.S. No. 1 of 191 countries for `responsiveness to the needs and choices of the individual patient.' Isn't responsiveess what health care is all about? "

While everyone seems to be tearing down our current, inperfect healthcare system, some other noteworthing points:

* Data assembled by Dr. Ronald Wenger and published recently in the Bulletin of the American College of Surgeons indicates that cardiac deaths in the U.S. have fallen by two-thirds over the past 50 years.
* Polio has been virtually eradicated.
* Childhood leukemia has a high cure rate.
* Eight of the top 10 medical advances in the past 20 years were developed or had roots in the U.S.
* The Nobel Prizes in medicine and physiology have been awarded to more Americans than to researchers in all other countries combined.
* Eight of the 10 top-selling drugs in the world were developed by U.S. companies.
* The U.S. has some of the highest breast, colon and prostate cancer survival rates in the world
* And our country ranks first or second in the world in kidney transplants, liver transplants, heart transplants, total knee replacements, coronary artery bypass, and percutaneous coronary interventions.
* We have the shortest waiting time for nonemergency surgery in the world; England has one of the longest. In Canada, a country of 35 million citizens, 1 million patients now wait for surgery and another million wait to see specialists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704130904574644230678102274.html

Thank you BK. If you read VK's posts you would think that the medical profession in the USA practiced in caves. People come here from all over the world for our medical care.
Another thing is that whenever there is disasters around the globe it is the USA that responds. Maybe if people here who complain all the time spent time in Canada or England waiting months for surgery they would appreciate what we have right here in the USA.

[Donna2]

Its change and people are afraid of change, I believe change is growth, to do nothing is just more of the same.

People are afraid of bad change. Not all change is growth. Not all growth is good. Isn't this fun?

Obama ran on change. What he didn't tell everybody is what kind of change he had in mind. I think people had their own individual idea's on what change they thought would be coming. Seems to me that we will have to change the constitution because this bill is against everything that it represents.

[CarGuy]

As has been suggested by many people and a few politicians over the last two years, there is a simple way to provide good health care in this country and not take two years and who knows how much time, paper, bribes and special deals to get a 1500 page bill (that no one has read and no one understands) in front of the President.

The bill should have few words:

"Every legal resident in the US will receive precisely the same medical and dental benefits as any member of the US Congress"

A bill of this nature was introduced in the House and never saw the light of day. I wonder why

[jebartle]

I too question how this bill will play out BUT it is a start in the right direction and the government does have a couple of programs that we all enjoy, Medicare and SS

[graciegirl]

Everyone has their point of view and their own life experience. We all come from different places on this issue. I agree with the person that wrote that he stays out of political because the issues get so hot and the statements so extreme that he is afraid he will hate the people who are his neighbors.

I have read all of these statements and I have learned from each of you.

I apologize if I have said something to hurt someone.

I hope that I will always have an open mind.

[zcaveman]

I too question how this bill will play out BUT it is a start in the right direction and the government does have a couple of programs that we all enjoy, Medicare and SS

Excuse me but I paid into SS and Medicare since I started working. I did not enjoy paying into it but I expect to get my money out of it. Besides, my retirement pension and my retirement health insurance are tied to these programs.

[villagerjack]

I too question how this bill will play out BUT it is a start in the right direction and the government does have a couple of programs that we all enjoy, Medicare and SS
Both are broke meaning they have NO MONEY!

[Villages Kahuna]

Both are broke meaning they have NO MONEY!

First, kudos to BKC for doing the research and providing food for thought for us all. Many of the facts listed are meaningful.

A quick response regarding the financial condition of the Social Security and Medicare systems. When Social Security was signed into law in 1935, the average lifespan of Americans was probably 15 years shorter than it is today. Similarly, when Medicare was enacted in 1965, there was probably no way that the Congress could anticipate that healthcare would have to be provided to people for many more years than they were living at that time. Of course both programs are "broke". Even if our politicians hadn't invaded the trust funds prescribed to fund these programs to pay for current government spending, both programs would still be broke. What's almost criminal is the ignorance of Congresses for decades in ignoring the increasingly desperate need to to restructure these programs and provide for financing more in line with current life expectancies and levels of health. Critics can blame "government" for mismanaging Social Security and Medicare, but the most egregious mismanagement has been ignoring the problems associated with them as those problems became increasingly evident.

However, I still am of the belief that our healthcare system absolutely needs reforms, some of which began with the passage of the healthcare bill. The facts that are the basis for my conclusion are as follows...
The amount of money we spend on healthcare, currently measured as about 16-17% of our GDP, is almost double that of the next country included in any such listing.
The increases in our healthcare expenditures and the costs borne by individual citizens are growing at a rate that virtually everyone agrees is unsustainable and unaffordable for a growing number of Americans every day, every week and every month.
Notwithstanding the skill and creativity of our medical professionals, drug makers and medical device manufacturers, the average life expectancy and infant mortality rates of Americans are well below many countries in the developed world.

Our individual viewpoints regarding the adequacy of our healthcare system seems to be driven by the "haves" versus the "have nots".

If one were to measure the costs and results of healthcare among those Americans who have insurance and access to healthcare, I suspect their statistics would be measurably better than other citizens not so blessed with both financial resources and access.

In debates such as occur on this forum, it's the "haves" who are arguing that our system is OK and the type of legislation enacted early this week was unnecessary. Those who can't afford insurance, are reliant only on ER care when they get sick, or who have had family members or friends die because they had no access to the same type of care so readily available to the haves in our society would certainly have a differing view.

The various studies and statistics capture the average condition of our healthcare system, not the situation that the haves enjoy. That is, all except one glaring statistic. That's the unsustainable escalation of the total cost of healthcare that seems to result from the average poor health and the costs associated with treatment only of advanced medical conditions and virtually no preventive care being experienced by the have nots.

So I guess the way I'm interpreting the statistics available is that we--the haves--really had to do something to protect ourselves from having the escalating costs resultant from the much sicker have nots from dragging our own healthcare down closer to the lower level and higher cost resultant from the care available to the have nots.

Am I saying that is my only reason for supporting healthcare reform? No. I also believe that every citizen of the U.S. has the right to an adequate level of healthcare. If we want to count ourselves as a civil society, I think that's a fundamental requirement.

So, my support of this initial step of healthcare reform--and I do mean an initial step because of the weaknesses in the bill--is based both on my desire to protect my own healthcare from being eroded as the result of the costs and health associtaed with the have nots. But also simply because I want to call myself a member of a society which has some basic and fundamental beliefs regarding the well-being of all its citizens.

I know I probably won't convince others who do not share my beliefs. That's OK with me. I am willing to agree to disagree. But I'd surely like to do so without being disagreeable. That's something that seems sorely missing, both here on this forum, but also among our politicians. And that's too bad.

[Lou Card]

How about a forum for "Moderates"? I'd sign up for that one.

me also