Medical ethics

[queasy27]

Without getting too specific, one of my doctors said they would have to discharge me as a patient if I wasn't wiling to take a cholesterol medication. My objection was that I had taken them for 15+ years but had developed side effects that I am no long willing to tolerate. During that time, my cholesterol was never reduced to recommended levels, anyway.

I confess I don't really understand the doctor's position. Am I not allowed as a patient to refuse treatment? Should doctors have the right to only treat obedient patients who do everything they say?

I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to be stubborn or willfully noncompliant but do feel strongly about this particular issue. I'm curious to hear other opinions from both sides.

[retiredguy123]

I don't agree with the doctor, but I don't think he/she is being unethical. You can always find another doctor.

[CFrance]

I know pediatricians who refuse to treat children whose parents won't have them immunized. Of course, part of that reason could be the waiting room problem with other children there. But some of it is about how strongly they feel concerning the subject.

I don't think it's unethical. Perhaps he doesn't want on his conscious the possible consequences of your decision.

[fw102807]

Without getting too specific, one of my doctors said they would have to discharge me as a patient if I wasn't wiling to take a cholesterol medication. My objection was that I had taken them for 15+ years but had developed side effects that I am no long willing to tolerate. During that time, my cholesterol was never reduced to recommended levels, anyway.

I confess I don't really understand the doctor's position. Am I not allowed as a patient to refuse treatment? Should doctors have the right to only treat obedient patients who do everything they say?

I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to be stubborn or willfully noncompliant but do feel strongly about this particular issue. I'm curious to hear other opinions from both sides.

I had to find another dentist when the one I had refused to treat me because I would not have xrays.

[queasy27]

I don't think it's unethical. Perhaps he doesn't want on his conscious the possible consequences of your decision.

Unethical is not quite the right word, I agree, but would any doctor really have any liability if I keeled over from a heart attack after refusing a medication? I honestly don't understand why any doctor's conscience would be bothered in that situation. They gave me their recommendation and I ignored it. What else could they have done? If they're determined to feel guilty, I'd think refusing me as a patient and then I keeled over and died would be worse for them, conscious-wise.

It's a cost/benefit analysis for me. Should I be required to take a medication with side effects that may or may not help a condition I may or may not develop?

[Dan9871]

Unethical is not quite the right word, I agree, but would any doctor really have any liability if I keeled over from a heart attack after refusing a medication? I honestly don't understand why any doctor's conscience would be bothered in that situation. They gave me their recommendation and I ignored it. What else could they have done? If they're determined to feel guilty, I'd think refusing me as a patient and then I keeled over and died would be worse for them, conscious-wise.

It's a cost/benefit analysis for me. Should I be required to take a medication with side effects that may or may not help a condition I may or may not develop?

45% of the doc's in this study dismissed patient because they didn't follow recommendations.

The 7 top reasons doctors 'fire' patients | Advisory Board Daily Briefing (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2017/05/18/patient-dismissal)

Search the web for something like "web dismiss patient" and you will find many articles about the reason doc's dismiss patients. Basically they say a doc can drop you except in some special cases. If they do they have to facilitate your transfer to another doc but they don't have to find another doc for you.

Terminating a Patient-Physician Relationship | American Medical Association (https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/terminating-patient-physician-relationship)

[Brandigirl]

Insurance companies/medical practices are getting tricky. It may have to do with something called "Best Practices" Certain conditions requires very specific medications to be prescribed for certain medical conditions or very specific guidelines to follow for high blood pressure, for instance. Insurance companies may give the insured a whole brochure of doctors who use these "Best practice doctors " and they prefer you go to them first. In my opinion, it gives the patient a false sense that these are the best doctors to use when actually it is the doctor who adheres to the guidelines put forth by the insurance company or medical practice. All this information is gathered by someone and reviewed. For instance, if a patient of that doctor has documented high cholesterol, the guidelines say that the patient has to be on cholesterol medication. So when your chart is audited, that doctor gets sited for not using best practices even though it is not his/her fault. I don't know all of how it works but this is a general explanation and my facts may not be correct completely, but that is how I understand it. I have gotten the brochures myself of specific doctors to use for any specialty for best practices in the past and get a discount if I use those doctors instead. In the past , I actually don't use those doctors because if I want to get a MRI for a neck problem, a best practice doctor would never order one for me unless I went through more simple diagnostic tests first such a neck X-ray, then Physical therapy, medications etc. If they ordered an MRI as a first step, it would show up on the audit. I am in the medical profession and I sometimes just want to get certain tests done and skip the beginning steps and go right to the best diagnostic test I know that will give me an answer quick. So that may be part of the reason. I don't know how it works for Medicare, as I am not Medicare age yet, but I am sure Medicare has something similar but may call it something different. There is something called HEDIS: Medicare does use HEDIS guidelines. The Healthcare Effectiveness Data and Information Set (HEDIS) is a tool used by more than 90% of America's health plans to measure performance on important dimensions of care and service. ... HEDIS consists of 81 measures across 5 domains of care. It is all very complicated but health care is all carefully tracked and monitored. Not simple like years ago where you and your doctor decided what you needed, instead of the insurance companies.

[retiredguy123]

Insurance companies/medical practices are getting tricky. It may have to do with something called "Best Practices" Certain conditions requires very specific medications to be prescribed for certain medical conditions or very specific guidelines to follow for high blood pressure, for instance. Insurance companies may give the insured a whole brochure of doctors who use these "Best practice doctors " and they prefer you go to them first. In my opinion, it gives the patient a false sense that these are the best doctors to use when actually it is the doctor who adheres to the guidelines put forth by the insurance company or medical practice. All this information is gathered by someone and reviewed. For instance, if a patient of that doctor has documented high cholesterol, the guidelines say that the patient has to be on cholesterol medication. So when your chart is audited, that doctor gets sited for not using best practices even though it is not his/her fault. I don't know all of how it works but this is a general explanation and my facts may not be correct completely, but that is how I understand it. I have gotten the brochures myself of specific doctors to use for any specialty for best practices in the past and get a discount if I use those doctors instead. In the past , I actually don't use those doctors because if I want to get a MRI for a neck problem, a best practice doctor would never order one for me unless I went through more simple diagnostic tests first such a neck X-ray, then Physical therapy, medications etc. If they ordered an MRI as a first step, it would show up on the audit. I am in the medical profession and I sometimes just want to get certain tests done and skip the beginning steps and go right to the best diagnostic test I know that will give me an answer quick. So that may be part of the reason. I don't know how it works for Medicare, as I am not Medicare age yet, but I am sure Medicare has something similar but may call it something different. There is something called HEDIS: Medicare does use HEDIS guidelines. The Healthcare Effectiveness Data and Information Set (HEDIS) is a tool used by more than 90% of America's health plans to measure performance on important dimensions of care and service. ... HEDIS consists of 81 measures across 5 domains of care. It is all very complicated but health care is all carefully tracked and monitored. Not simple like years ago where you and your doctor decided what you needed, instead of the insurance companies.
Huh??? This make no sense to me. If the doctor prescribes a drug and the patient doesn't take it, it is not the doctor's fault. Are you saying that someone who is 100 pounds overweight should not get medical treatment because they just eat too much? Is that the doctor's fault?

[HIgolfers]

This is a fascinating thread. I wonder is some retired docs could post their ideas on this.

[Living a Fantasy]

Google "The truth about statins!" I argued with three differnt MD's when I refused to take statins. One of those MD's is my son-in law. Finally, my primary care declared me statin intolerant. Check out this link. It sums up my feelings re: statins.

Statin Side Effects (excerpt from Statin Nation) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3pHxF_syF8&list=PLsWThbOjH5SVFdu6oK_-OBIMJepIgEEGo&index=3)

[queasy27]

Thanks for the explanation, Brandigirl. That makes sense. This is a newish doctor; my old one accepted that statins didn't work well for me and didn't push it.

To be honest, I miss the days when I'd go to the doctor if I was sick and otherwise we left each other alone. Now it's nag, nag, nag. I'm happy to put some of the blame on insurance company policies.

I argued with three different MD's when I refused to take statins. One of those MD's is my son-in law. Finally, my primary care declared me statin intolerant.

Oy. I feel you. I showed this doctor a research article from JAMA about myopathy being highly associated with a particular DNA variant* that I have according to my raw data from 23 and Me. He brushed it off. Most MDs tend not to appreciate it when patients roll in with research off the Internet. ;-)


* C variant SNP rs4363657 within SLCO1B1, if interested.

[Brandigirl]

To Retired Guy. You are right, it is not the doctor's fault at all if the patient does not want to follow the advice the doctor gives. I am not sure how specifically it works, but they have people who just gather data. That chart would be audited and it would just show that the patient is not on cholesterol medications and has a diagnosis of high cholesterol. What the ramifications are for not meeting the guidelines ....I don't know. I am also not sure if they just audit the chart and only are looking for a diagnosis of high cholesterol AND if they are/are not on cholesterol medication OR if they look for documentation that the patient refused. If is all complicated but I don't know the finer details. For instance, if you are on a medication for low thyroid level, you have to see your doctor 1x/year in order to continue to get your thyroid medication renewed even if the lab test shows it is in the normal range. As for the weight, for instance, there may have to be documentation that the patient was counseled on weight loss or anyone over a certain BMI would have to have certain other criteria documented in the chart.

[JoMar]

My view is that you have the right to fire the doctory if you don't feel he is doing what is in your personal view, what's best for you. He also has the right to fire you if he doesn't feel you are doing what is in his personal view, what's best for you. I also know that families have a tenendency to sue doctors do so I assume there might be some liabillity but most likely, he doesn't want to treat someone that doesn't want to be treated and self diagnoses. Your solution is easy, go find a doctor that meets your treatment criteria.

[mills3186]

It is a sad fact that health care providers these days must have "best practices" they must follow, the health care corporation dictates that they must have their diabetic patients under certain control, those with high cholesterol must get their #'s down, etc. At the HMO I worked at, we were given benchmarks to meet and part of our pay was docked if not. So was it my fault my patients chose to continue to be morbidly obese? No, I can't really change their lifetime of bad habits or the fact they have bad genetics. It was a nightmare to inherit another train wreck. Some practitioners resort to doing what yours did in order to make it look as if they had their patients well managed. This is part of the burn out issue you keep hearing about. I've had plenty of patients who either couldn't tolerate statins or didn't work, if they simply didn't want to take them it was my job to explain the benefits and consequence of not doing it. I would never discharge a patient though. If they were blatantly non-compliant, I would mark that on their chart on multiple occasions to protect myself. In your case, I would have written that you have hypercholesteremia that did not respond well to statins and were non-tolerated. To discharge you from his practice is just wrong in my opinion. Unethical? Hard to say.

[Taltarzac725]

Without getting too specific, one of my doctors said they would have to discharge me as a patient if I wasn't wiling to take a cholesterol medication. My objection was that I had taken them for 15+ years but had developed side effects that I am no long willing to tolerate. During that time, my cholesterol was never reduced to recommended levels, anyway.

I confess I don't really understand the doctor's position. Am I not allowed as a patient to refuse treatment? Should doctors have the right to only treat obedient patients who do everything they say?

I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to be stubborn or willfully noncompliant but do feel strongly about this particular issue. I'm curious to hear other opinions from both sides.

Just wondering if there are a number of these kind of medications one of which might be OK for you to use?

[queasy27]

My view is that you have the right to fire the doctor if you don't feel he is doing what is in your personal view, what's best for you. He also has the right to fire you if he doesn't feel you are doing what is in his personal view, what's best for you.

I truly do sympathize with the doctor's side of things, but I'd also expect a bit of forebearance on their part.

The difficulty is that "not forcing me to take medication" isn't a good way to find doctors. This is my 5th internist in 9 years -- three of them left TV and one I left because of excessive wait times and error-prone office staff. I'd hope to find something who's willing to work with me as I try to take back some control over my health care after a couple of stressful years on the medical merry go round. I'm tired of the paperwork and repeat testing and having to start over and explain everything again with someone new.

I absolutely dread going to the doctor these days and get quite anxious (blood pressure up!).

United Healthcare even contacted my danged pharmacy and had them call me to say I needed to take statins. Like, really?

[queasy27]

At the HMO I worked at, we were given benchmarks to meet and part of our pay was docked if not. So was it my fault my patients chose to continue to be morbidly obese?

That's horrible!! I swear.

I appreciate the insight.

What's kind of ironic is that a couple of friends referred me to this doctor because they said this person doesn't nag. I didn't think it through, but the reason they don't get any pushback is because they're both fairly healthy and do what they're told. D'oh!

[graciegirl]

I believe that Statins are the number one reason we have had a huge drop in death from cardiovascular disease in the last thirty years. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have heard others say that statins caused pain in their arms and legs. I wonder what your side effects are? Sometimes the benefit outweighs the side effects, but that is for each to choose.

[thetruth]

Huh??? This make no sense to me. If the doctor prescribes a drug and the patient doesn't take it, it is not the doctor's fault. Are you saying that someone who is 100 pounds overweight should not get medical treatment because they just eat too much? Is that the doctor's fault?

You choose a doctor because you believe they are qualified but perhaps more because you approve of their personality-bedside manner. Obviously, it is a two way street.

You mention 100 lbs overweight. If, that is your issue. If, it is getting worse. It is fairly easy to take weight off. The hard part, where most people fail is keeping it off. In any case, as frustrating as it is. it is also frustrating for a doctor. If, it is bad enough the doctor might well prefer you left.

Where we used to live-pre Villages. I, my sister and my niece all used the same doctor. I had used him for many years. He was sort of a friend and a bit of a gossip. I had serious issues with my sister due to my niece. The doctor knew as we would discuss it. Perhaps, inappropriately he once told me that my sister and my niece were his patients and that they had left.
His comment was he is glad they both left. My sister-I do not regularly talk to her. As a patient, as a human being, she is the type that refuses to listen to a different opinion than her own.
She is, or was several hundred pounds overweight. Her extra weight kept her from exercise so of course it got worse.

She has been going through chemo. I don't think her weight caused her cancer but I do know her weight makes her care, her options etc more difficult.

[Brandigirl]

Mills3186, great insight into how you actually experienced it. Doctors are under a lot of pressure to follow these guidelines. Who would want to have part of their pay taken away because they can't convince someone to follow the advice of the benchmarks and best practices! The patients should have the right to make an informed decision regarding their healthcare. The only thing the doctor should do is document the non-compliance with the " Benchmark or Best Practice" and that should be the end of it, but unfortunately it is not. To Queasy27: I know that with certain insurance companies, you are "flagged" by the insurance company by some circumstances. I am not sure what exactly sets off the flag but it could be something like multiple ER visits for high blood sugar or high blood pressure. The insurance company sees these claims when submitted and they feel you, for some reason, cannot keep your blood sugar or blood pressure under control. They will send you a letter stating that they recommend you start a medication or have a "Nurse Navigator" help you manage your health care. They work with you over the phone to try and prevent you from continually going to the ER. So when a medical practice sees that you have gone to the ER, they want you to come back for a follow up appt to try and educate you, review your medications and try and prevent it from happening again. ER visits are very expensive and some insurance companies give a medical practice a certain amount of money to manage a certain number of patients. So if the medical practice goes over that amount, it comes out of their pocket. That is where the "Best Practices" come into play.

[trichard]

You can always refuse treatment, but the physician does not need to retain you as his or her patient. It’s their prerogative. Nothing wrong with that.

[John_W]

...

[John_W]

PS - if you're with Villages Health, ask for Dr. Raquet at Brownwood. He's my doctor and he definitely knows what an allergy to cholesterol drugs is all about after I taught him.

[fw102807]

Mills3186, great insight into how you actually experienced it. Doctors are under a lot of pressure to follow these guidelines. Who would want to have part of their pay taken away because they can't convince someone to follow the advice of the benchmarks and best practices! The patients should have the right to make an informed decision regarding their healthcare. The only thing the doctor should do is document the non-compliance with the " Benchmark or Best Practice" and that should be the end of it, but unfortunately it is not. To Queasy27: I know that with certain insurance companies, you are "flagged" by the insurance company by some circumstances. I am not sure what exactly sets off the flag but it could be something like multiple ER visits for high blood sugar or high blood pressure. The insurance company sees these claims when submitted and they feel you, for some reason, cannot keep your blood sugar or blood pressure under control. They will send you a letter stating that they recommend you start a medication or have a "Nurse Navigator" help you manage your health care. They work with you over the phone to try and prevent you from continually going to the ER. So when a medical practice sees that you have gone to the ER, they want you to come back for a follow up appt to try and educate you, review your medications and try and prevent it from happening again. ER visits are very expensive and some insurance companies give a medical practice a certain amount of money to manage a certain number of patients. So if the medical practice goes over that amount, it comes out of their pocket. That is where the "Best Practices" come into play.

Thanks to you and Mills3186 for some very interesting information.

[Brawnwy123]

Without getting too specific, one of my doctors said they would have to discharge me as a patient if I wasn't wiling to take a cholesterol medication. My objection was that I had taken them for 15+ years but had developed side effects that I am no long willing to tolerate. During that time, my cholesterol was never reduced to recommended levels, anyway.

I confess I don't really understand the doctor's position. Am I not allowed as a patient to refuse treatment? Should doctors have the right to only treat obedient patients who do everything they say?

I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to be stubborn or willfully noncompliant but do feel strongly about this particular issue. I'm curious to hear other opinions from both sides.

RESPONSE: We have found the doctors here are a long way from the quality we found in other states. Yep, some real surprises here, but then I cannot tell it all here. So, our opinion is CHANGE DOCTORS NOW. THAT MAY WORK?? We have two neighbors who go for their medical in the state they moved from, a long way, but it is understandable. They have an unending line of folks here to bring in the money so it seems ($$$$) GOOD LUCK. :bigbow:

[queasy27]

The doctor who discharged me for refusing statins did so based on the labs below. They don't meet the recommended standards but they're not horrible. She would not budge. But it was only my second visit with her so it's not like she and I had any history.

Total: 212
LDL: 126
HDL: 59


If physicians can be penalized when their patients don't meet certain guidelines for best practices, do they also get bonuses when they prescribe certain meds?

[maggie1]

I believe that Statins are the number one reason we have had a huge drop in death from cardiovascular disease in the last thirty years. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have heard others say that statins caused pain in their arms and legs. I wonder what your side effects are? Sometimes the benefit outweighs the side effects, but that is for each to choose.

I have RLS (restless leg syndrome), and the statins I've been prescribed aggravate the condition. I currently take Ropinirole, which seems to keep my RLS in check, but if I take a statin too, the effects of the Ropinirole is greatly reduced, and I end up getting no sleep. I wouldn't wish this condition on anyone!

[J1ceasar]

Without getting too specific, one of my doctors said they would have to discharge me as a patient if I wasn't wiling to take a cholesterol medication. My objection was that I had taken them for 15+ years but had developed side effects that I am no long willing to tolerate. During that time, my cholesterol was never reduced to recommended levels, anyway.

I confess I don't really understand the doctor's position. Am I not allowed as a patient to refuse treatment? Should doctors have the right to only treat obedient patients who do everything they say?

I don't know the answers. I'm not trying to be stubborn or willfully noncompliant but do feel strongly about this particular issue. I'm curious to hear other opinions from both sides.

Find another doctor, there are plenty of other pills you can try, as well as diet and exercise

[ts12755]

12 years ago my Doctor told me the same thing. 6 months later they took the cholesterol medicine he prescribed off the market because it caused heart problems. I'm still not on any cholesterol meds and my reading is what its been for 35 years, 220. Find a better doc, he probably owns stock in the pharmaceutical company or the Rep has him eating out of her hand.

[maggie1]

[QUOTE=John_W;1623780]I just posted this on another thread, so I'll repost here since I'm allergic to statins and I had to find out the hard way.

In 2012 I had an attack of psoriatic arthritis and my legs swelled so much, I couldn't tell where my knees were, I gained 15 pounds overnight. I went to the VA ER at Gainesville and they gave me an IV of prednisone and then 144 prednisone pills to take over the next 30 days. I recovered in two weeks but when the pills ran out, my condition returned, but in a different way. I had psoriasis so bad I looked like a snowman flaking all over the place. I went back to the ER and they admitted to the hospital for 3 days and gave me a lot of predisone again. As it turned out, the VA never found what caused my reaction, I discovered it on my own while experimenting with my prescription drugs. I was allergic to statins, because I took avorstatin for cholesterol.

I have both a VA doctor and a Villages doctor with medicare. Jump ahead a year and my Villages doctor retired and I'm given a new doctor. He prescribed a drug and I made a big mistake, I trusted him and didn't read what it was, it was Crestor. I got red blotches all over, I called him and he said, it's just a small 5 mg dose, I said, I'm allergic to statins. He apparently had never encountered that before.

Anyway, I've been without taking statins now for a couple of years and my HDL is right about 210, which worries him. Six months ago he told me he has patients that are dropping 40 points using this natural drug, Cholestoff Plus. I started taking two a day about five months ago and I'll have a blood test in March and I'll find out if it's working.

It's $15 for 105 pills at Walmart and $30 at Walgreens. The way it's suppose to work is it stops the body from making cholesterol. My VA doctor once had told me to try the nutrient Red Yeast Rice, and when I did I broke out in blotches. After I researched it, I found that Red Yeast Rice is is a blend of 5 statins, so don't take that either.

If this reduces cholesterol without the side effects of statins, then I'm headed to WalMart as we speak. Thank you for the "heads up".

[csiebold]

I would find a different doctor. Your heart is a muscle and most side effects for meds that lower your cholesterol is muscle stiffness and cramping. Find a different doctor

[Carriea]

That doctor is not respecting your decision or issues I would find another who actually listens.

[BAT777]

Visit a Functional Doctor for advice

[Brandigirl]

Mine results similar to yours.
Cholesterol 215.
LDL 129
HDL 57
Which means your results were better than mine!. I was told we will just watch and was not put on cholesterol meds. These results were for 1.5 years ago in a different state. I Had repeat 3 months ago, here in FL, slightly lower but not by that much. Again, no recommendation to put on Cholesterol meds. Look at your Cholesterol/HDL ratio. Mine was 3.5 and normal was less than 5. It should be on your lab work.
Regarding bonus for prescribing meds, Years ago, that was a common. Reps would come in and bring the staff elaborate free lunches. Then the reps would talk to the doctors to prescribe the latest medication (Pharmaceutical Reps). Obviously the reps were compensated well if that medication was used for the patients. They even hosted free elaborate dinners at very nice restaurants and would have slide shows informing us about the latest new medication for the nursing staff/doctors. I know because I experienced it first hand. Then somehow, it was known that this was seen as some sort of bribe and congress or someone got involved and we no longer had free dinners or lunches. The staff got really used it. Then I moved to another state (recently) and they would bring again , elaborate lunches 3x/week for the staff. They would have a rep sit at a table in the break room to talk to the Nurse Practitioners and doctors as they got a break. We had to sign in a sheet of paper before we ate because they could get away with it by calling it "An informational lunch". The reps really only spoke to the doctors and NP one on one at the lunch table. It wasn't for everyone to hear (not a group discussion) although if you were really interested and asked a question, they would talk to you. I think I gained 10lbs that year! Some states ban this now but they have creative ways to get around it. Doctors, I think, got kick backs of some kind to prescribe and reps got bonuses. It was not that anything was wrong with these medication or unsafe, it was just a new medication to try. Years ago, they would give free samples to the patient to try the new meds and if it seemed to work for them, they would continue. The problem was, they were very expensive, had a patent on them and no generic available, so if the patient liked it and got good results, they wanted to continue. But then we know how insurance worked many years ago. Insurance paid almost everything in full so back then, there was no such things as deductibles, co-pays, maximum out of pocket, tier levels for drugs etc. So as time change, they become more creative.

[StateRobinbird]

Find a new Dr. that is willing to work with you to find a solution. There are a lot of "tricks" to reduce Cholesterol without the use of statins.

[tthdr]

This is a fascinating thread. I wonder is some retired docs could post their ideas on this.

Doctors have liability for patients who refuse treatment. The laws say that as the expert if a patient refuses xrays and the standard of care says they are needed, the dentist can by law be held liable. It does not make sense on its face but that is the law. The dentist is supposed to dismiss the patient. Besides, it really does not make sense to see someone you disagree with. I would try to compromise with a patient but you cannot treat teeth with no xrays. You would be guessing.

[Joorn59]

If you’ve been on a statin for years without getting to the normal range of cholesterol/LDL imagine where you’ll be without treatment.

[icthelite]

Do as I do. Take the script home and file it. When you go back for your follow up and he asks how you feel just tell him there's been no change. Another ploy to keep from taking something you don't want is to google what the side effects are, pick one or two of them. Call the doctor about them and he/she will take you off the med.

[rexxfan]

I just posted this on another thread, so I'll repost here since I'm allergic to statins and I had to find out the hard way.

In 2012 I had an attack of psoriatic arthritis and my legs swelled so much, I couldn't tell where my knees were, I gained 15 pounds overnight. I went to the VA ER at Gainesville and they gave me an IV of prednisone and then 144 prednisone pills to take over the next 30 days. I recovered in two weeks but when the pills ran out, my condition returned, but in a different way. I had psoriasis so bad I looked like a snowman flaking all over the place. I went back to the ER and they admitted to the hospital for 3 days and gave me a lot of predisone again. As it turned out, the VA never found what caused my reaction, I discovered it on my own while experimenting with my prescription drugs. I was allergic to statins, because I took avorstatin for cholesterol.

I have both a VA doctor and a Villages doctor with medicare. Jump ahead a year and my Villages doctor retired and I'm given a new doctor. He prescribed a drug and I made a big mistake, I trusted him and didn't read what it was, it was Crestor. I got red blotches all over, I called him and he said, it's just a small 5 mg dose, I said, I'm allergic to statins. He apparently had never encountered that before.

Anyway, I've been without taking statins now for a couple of years and my HDL is right about 210, which worries him. Six months ago he told me he has patients that are dropping 40 points using this natural drug, Cholestoff Plus. I started taking two a day about five months ago and I'll have a blood test in March and I'll find out if it's working.

It's $15 for 105 pills at Walmart and $30 at Walgreens. The way it's suppose to work is it stops the body from making cholesterol. My VA doctor once had told me to try the nutrient Red Yeast Rice, and when I did I broke out in blotches. After I researched it, I found that Red Yeast Rice is is a blend of 5 statins, so don't take that either.

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/25d48d80-6b0d-4d1e-9d1f-ea6452ca3948_1.9886ddb46830857b7806f3a948e2804a.jp eg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Nature-Made-Cholestoff-Plus-Softgels-1800mg-104-Ct/854560825?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=4262&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9011519&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=854560825&wl13=4262&veh=sem&gclid=Cj0KCQiAtP_iBRDGARIsAEWJA8iuRBzY6hhmY1bcAt4F E3E8PgJns68Ghu775IAR_X78cYZ1oJFQz7caAvXfEALw_wcB
For what its worth, my LDL was 160 and my doc recommended statins. I declined and made some lifestyle changes. 18 months later my LDL was 96. One of the changes I made was to use CholestOff, so I am sure it was part of the reason for the improvement. It's worth a try.
--
bc

[PennBF]

The person who provided the "UTube" article on Statins should be thanked for making the readers so informative on such an important subject. The writer provided, what I consider, as the most important Thread to Talk of the Villages. The feed back by the readers indicate just how useful TOV is to the Community. I for one have had a running battle with my Dr about the use of Statins and may be fired because of my position. Have had a number of friends and others relate the bad effects they have had with statins and am not about to risk any at this late age. Again, thanks for the article web sites.:bigbow:

[graciegirl]

Do as I do. Take the script home and file it. When you go back for your follow up and he asks how you feel just tell him there's been no change. Another ploy to keep from taking something you don't want is to google what the side effects are, pick one or two of them. Call the doctor about them and he/she will take you off the med.

Laboratory results are the most effective way to know if Statins are lowering your cholesterol.

Statins are indeed very effective in lowering the chance of death from cardiovascular difficulties.

Your body. Your choice.

[PennBF]

I have known so many that have had serious side effects from Statins that I think it is a serious health problem for all. If you read and listen to the tapes on the web site that was generously provided by one of the TOV readers it is hard to ignore their warnings. It is critical that you and not your Dr is responsible for your health and care. A lot of Physicians (some friends of mine) take great vacation trips paid for by Drug Companies. Of course they are influenced by some..I know I am completely independent for my thinking when considering medications for
myself. All should read that Website the reader provided and then balance that with your thoughts and do what your conscience suggests.:ho:

[graciegirl]

I have known so many that have had serious side effects from Statins that I think it is a serious health problem for all. If you read and listen to the tapes on the web site that was generously provided by one of the TOV readers it is hard to ignore their warnings. It is critical that you and not your Dr is responsible for your health and care. A lot of Physicians (some friends of mine) take great vacation trips paid for by Drug Companies. Of course they are influenced by some..I know I am completely independent for my thinking when considering medications for
myself. All should read that Website the reader provided and then balance that with your thoughts and do what your conscience suggests.:ho:

I think this is a pretty good article on the subject.
Statins: is your doctor at the heart of the 'Great Cholesterol Con'? - BizNews.com (https://www.biznews.com/health/2015/04/02/statins-is-your-doctor-at-the-heart-of-the-great-cholesterol-con)

[Kwenner]

Take Metamucil every day. Seriously , Dr wanted my husband to take meds for his cholesterol and I had him Start Metamucil, his cholesterol dropped 80 points in less than 3 months. If you don’t like the powder you can get capsules.

[Hifred]

My husband has mixed hyperlipidemia which is a genetic disorder and high levels of trigylcerides in cholesterol. He was on Crestor for more than 15 years and started to have side effects. The Crestor contolled his high triglycerides and cholesterol well but his hands were shaking, his memory got really bad and he developed protein uria. He talked to his doctor and rather refusing any statin they talked about options. The doctor allowed him to come off of Crestor for six weeks and then ran a blood pannel to see what he looked like with only a controlled diet. All his numbers which had been good on Crestor after six weeks of being off Crestor were bad. So the doctor advised trying half a dose of Crestor for six weeks which he did. Then more blood work was done. There was an improvement but the triglycerides were over 500 which is not good. So then we talked about other types of stantins. So he stopped Crestor and began a six week trial of Lipitor. It has been a month and in 2 more weeks he is going in for more blood and urine. The side effects on half a dose of Crestor and on the Lipitor are gone. The issue is half a dose of Crestor did not work as it should. We will see how this trial of Lipitor does,

My question is why is it all or nothing between you and your doctor? Maybe a smaller dose of medicine will help. Or maybe a different stantin will help. If you have a genetic disorder like combined hyperlipidemia, hypertriglyceridemia, defective apolipoprtein B-100 or hypercholesterolemia you will likely die without treatment by massive heart attack or stroke. These diseases use to cause people to drop over. Diet alone won't get rid of these conditions and for those who have them statins are a life saver. They have some new injectable medications that help the liver absorbe more LDK which lowers cholesterol Paluent and Repatha can help but you sometimes still have to take statins. I don't understand why take it or else and why you can's talk about other options or if possibly you are not open to any other options. There might be more to this.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Find another doctor. You can easily control cholesterol with diet by just cutting all sugar and keep carbs below 50 per day. You will loose weight and feel much better. Do some research on Keto and Ketones.

[graciegirl]

Find another doctor. You can easily control cholesterol with diet by just cutting all sugar and keep carbs below 50 per day. You will loose weight and feel much better. Do some research on Keto and Ketones.

I respectfully disagree.

[tmbromley]

Go see Dr. Mariella. He is a more homeopathic type of doctor but if you are unwilling to change your habits to a better diet and exercise routine you might need cholesterol drugs as there may not be a safe alternative. Some folks are genetically predisposed to high cholesterol but most are not. That means that if you are not predisposed you have to take charge of yourself and your diet if you can’t or won’t then you may need to find some way to get control and unfortunately medication may be your only choice. Good luck with your issue.

[Sedlecky]

I can't take statins or other types either. I go to U of F, my cardiologist put me on REPATHA an injectible every 2 weeks. It has been amazing, no side effects and my cholesterol has dropped a lot.

[itzfun]

Studies have shown that taking statins for five years extends one's life by 4.5 days. Most people quit after two years due to pain and other side effects. You may want to read this: Everything You Know About Cholesterol Is Wrong (https://blog.bulletproof.com/what-is-cholesterol/). And this: The reality is, total cholesterol is a poor predictor for assessing heart attack and stroke risk. Studies have found that there might be no association between high total cholesterol and heart attack and stroke risk. AHA Announces Coconut Oil Is Unhealthy: Here's Why A Functional Medicine Expert Disagrees | Dr. Will Cole (https://drwillcole.com/aha-announces-coconut-oil-unhealthy-heres-functional-medicine-expert-disagrees/?fbclid=IwAR1BTs3rXSvDDK9kSZnoL5xOgD7gGOkivqYYsqH8 7bZBzNZtjdJanRMo004) Conventional medicine doctors are paid by big pharma to prescribe their products. The doctors want us to be proactive in our health, but that means doing what they say. They don't really like it when we educate ourselves and ask questions.

[debcork]

I'm currently participating in a study for cholesterol. The product is made by Gatorade (Cholesteraid) and is not a statin. So far no side effects.

[skyking]

The physician is totally within his rights. The only requirement is that he give you sufficient time to find another doctor. Usually 30 days.

[John_W]

...

[Abby10]

I truly do sympathize with the doctor's side of things, but I'd also expect a bit of forebearance on their part.

The difficulty is that "not forcing me to take medication" isn't a good way to find doctors. This is my 5th internist in 9 years -- three of them left TV and one I left because of excessive wait times and error-prone office staff. I'd hope to find something who's willing to work with me as I try to take back some control over my health care after a couple of stressful years on the medical merry go round. I'm tired of the paperwork and repeat testing and having to start over and explain everything again with someone new.

I absolutely dread going to the doctor these days and get quite anxious (blood pressure up!).

United Healthcare even contacted my danged pharmacy and had them call me to say I needed to take statins. Like, really?

Let me first say that I'm on board with your thought processes. I wish I dealt with more patients that had your mindset of wanting to take back some control over your healthcare. Having said that, as a pharmacist I can directly speak to the statement in your post that I highlighted.

United Healthcare is not unique in "requiring" pharmacies to contact patients about various things including using statins if you are diabetic regardless of your cholesterol levels. It has become a standard of practice in the industry overall to put diabetics on statins to help in the prevention of cardiovascular disease which often occurs as part of the disease process. To put it simply, insurance companies dictate certain standards of care, such as this one, with which pharmacies must comply or it risks not being paid the full amount for medication dispensed. I'm sure doctors are under the same kind of pressure to comply with certain standards dictated by insurance companies in order to get paid for their services. IMHO, the result of insurance companies dictating reimbursement based on the standards they set has taken away much of the individuality of treating patients because we professionals are forced to follow their protocols. I believe this has led to a great disservice to patient care and a lot of frustration in healthcare professionals across the board. As I said, this is the simple version. It's really much more complicated and as often happens with regulations, there are both good aspects and bad.

Again, kudos to you for listening to your body and speaking up when you feel something isn't right for you. We are not all made the same so medications will not necessarily react the same in every body. Hope you find a new doctor who meets your needs.

[graciegirl]

This thread has been enlightening to me in many ways.

[PennBF]

We should always remember we are responsible for our health/body, etc. Not the Insurance Companies or the Doctor. There are billions dollar's available to be "cherry picked" by both of these groups and we are the trees where the cherries are. I have dealt with these groups thru 3 very serious cancers, one that was fatale and have experienced the good and the bad. Always remembering we are responsible for the care and treatment and not the Dr and Insurance Co. I think this thread is terrific as it causes many to think about the medical portion of their life and consider all sides. This is a good example as to why TOV's is so valuable to our community.:bigbow: