Representation without taxation

[Guest]

I think that people should not vote unless they pay taxes. 47% of the population are slackers and should, therefore, not be allowed to cast a ballot.

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/04/09/representation-without-taxation/

[Guest]

Donna2--- I agree 1000%. I, also, think that there shouldn't be early voting. I do it all the time, but I don't think it is right. While I'm ranting , I think absentee ballots should be only for shut-ins and people who are really going to be out of town, on election day. I'm, also, not happy with "groups" rounding up people and bringing them in by the bus loads. My guess is that they have been told how to vote. It would be nice if the voter could read English. I thought you had to know a certain amount of English to be an American citizen. I'm done venting.

[Guest]

or with the help of an accountant or attorney work around the system to pay taxes. Most of the financially able to easily pay their share of taxes. These and other free loaders can come under the label "slackers".

There are, however, in the numbers reported those who are not capable of paying taxes, legitimately. Example? An elderly person who lives strictly on SS, in a nursing home.

I would be more interested in the number of people who do not pay taxes that are earning more than $50,000 per year and above.

The other real source of taxes, not very often discussed, are the many U.S. corporations that just pay zero taxes. And the almost all foreign entities that pay no taxes. These are well known to our illustrious leaders in Washington and just like all other special interest groups in their favor....no action taken.

How can our representatives AND we the people.... in good conscience at a time this country is in it's most precarious financial crisis, getting worse by the day.....allow such blatant negligence to continue?

btk

[Guest]

or with the help of an accountant or attorney work around the system to pay taxes. Most of the financially able to easily pay their share of taxes. These and other free loaders can come under the label "slackers".

There are, however, in the numbers reported those who are not capable of paying taxes, legitimately. Example? An elderly person who lives strictly on SS, in a nursing home.

I would be more interested in the number of people who do not pay taxes that are earning more than $50,000 per year and above.

The other real source of taxes, not very often discussed, are the many U.S. corporations that just pay zero taxes. And the almost all foreign entities that pay no taxes. These are well known to our illustrious leaders in Washington and just like all other special interest groups in their favor....no action taken.

How can our representatives AND we the people.... in good conscience at a time this country is in it's most precarious financial crisis, getting worse by the day.....allow such blatant negligence to continue?

btk

I understand and somewhat agree with your post but my intend was to point out how the "slackers" are now the "tipping point" on elections"
They will vote for the candidate who promises the most free stuff. (entitlements)
This will lead us down the path to ruins.

[Guest]

Donna2--- I agree 1000%. I, also, think that there shouldn't be early voting. I do it all the time, but I don't think it is right. While I'm ranting , I think absentee ballots should be only for shut-ins and people who are really going to be out of town, on election day. I'm, also, not happy with "groups" rounding up people and bringing them in by the bus loads. My guess is that they have been told how to vote. It would be nice if the voter could read English. I thought you had to know a certain amount of English to be an American citizen. I'm done venting.

Sally Jo. You will get no arguments from me.

[Guest]

I understand and somewhat agree with your post but my intend was to point out how the "slackers" are now the "tipping point" on elections"
They will vote for the candidate who promises the most free stuff. (entitlements)
This will lead us down the path to ruins.

Donna, I agree with pretty much you usually say. Here, I don't know what you are calling "entitlements". If it is Medicare, Social Security, VA....those are not "free stuff". And, no, I didn't vote for the current administration; and, yes, I can hardly wait to vote them out.

[Guest]

Donna, I agree with pretty much you usually say. Here, I don't know what you are calling "entitlements". If it is Medicare, Social Security, VA....those are not "free stuff". And, no, I didn't vote for the current administration; and, yes, I can hardly wait to vote them out.

Sorry, that is why I put "entitlements" in quotation marks. Social Security is the only legitimate "entitlement" because I put into it every week for over 45 years. I will gladly remove myself from the SS ranks if they give me every penny plus accumulated interest that I put into it. Also, the veterans deserve to be taken care of because they "earned" it too.
If people want "free" health care they can join the military any time they want.
A society can afford to take care of those who do not wish or cannot take care of themselves if there is money left over. A society that is sinking into the ruins because we spent our grand children's future, can hardly afford to just go deeper into debt.

[Guest]

Donna2: So (just to pick an example) someone who invested all their money in tax-free municipal bonds (you know, the stuff that governments sell to finance construction of roads, schools, etc) and lives off that income shouldn't be allowed to vote?

A family of four that earned under $50,000 but PAYS their mortgage and may have some one-time tax credits (like energy efficiency credits, etc) shouldn't be allowed to vote?

You *are* aware that poll taxes are unconstitutional? I'll quote the 24th Ammendment:


Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.


"...or other tax" pretty much covers it all.

[Guest]

Donna2: So (just to pick an example) someone who invested all their money in tax-free municipal bonds (you know, the stuff that governments sell to finance construction of roads, schools, etc) and lives off that income shouldn't be allowed to vote?

A family of four that earned under $50,000 but PAYS their mortgage and may have some one-time tax credits (like energy efficiency credits, etc) shouldn't be allowed to vote?

You *are* aware that poll taxes are unconstitutional? I'll quote the 24th Ammendment:



"...or other tax" pretty much covers it all.

I think you really know what I was getting at. There are millions that are actually making a profit from the government at tax time. People will vote their pocket book. When politicians promise "free" stuff, people who don't pay taxes, will and even those who do, will vote for that candidate.
That kind of voting at the polls will surely bankrupt the nation.

[Guest]

I think you really know what I was getting at. There are millions that are actually making a profit from the government at tax time. People will vote their pocket book. When politicians promise "free" stuff, people who don't pay taxes, will and even those who do, will vote for that candidate.
That kind of voting at the polls will surely bankrupt the nation.

So why don't you say what you mean....stop using code words. You want to keep the "welfare people" from voting because they don't "pay taxes". So would it follow that those people who do pay taxes should get more of a vote depending on how much of a tax bill they paid. So for example if you pay $10,000 you get one vote. But $20,000 1.1 votes.... The more you pay the bigger the vote.

Sounds really democratic to me.

[Guest]

So why don't you say what you mean....stop using code words. You want to keep the "welfare people" from voting because they don't "pay taxes". So would it follow that those people who do pay taxes should get more of a vote depending on how much of a tax bill they paid. So for example if you pay $10,000 you get one vote. But $20,000 1.1 votes.... The more you pay the bigger the vote.

Sounds really democratic to me.

Apparently you only read what you want to read. Are you saying that 47% of the non-tax paying population is on welfare? Sheeeeesh

[Guest]

Apparently you only read what you want to read. Are you saying that 47% of the non-tax paying population is on welfare? Sheeeeesh

No you said 47% of the population didn't pay taxes....then you talked about entitlements.

So I would only say this: "What does the constitution say about voter eligibility?"

Best to go by that.

[Guest]

No you said 47% of the population didn't pay taxes....then you talked about entitlements.

So I would only say this: "What does the constitution say about voter eligibility?"

Best to go by that.

You accused me of talking in "code" I say that you were hoping I was talking in code so you could bait me with your left-wing talking points.

The whole meaning of my post was "Taxation without Representation"

Now we have representation without paying taxes. And yes, there is a generation or two with an entitlement mentality. Last I heard, health care is not in the constitution. You can pursue happiness. You also can pursue your own health care. Nobody can make you happy but yourself.
Another question: Howe can you keep having more entitlements with less and less people contributing? Again, 47% of the people in the USA do not pay taxes but expect other people to pay for it for them. They feel entitled.

[Guest]

Sounds to me the best solution would be a "poll tax". You don't vote unless you pay the tax. OOPS! The Supreme Court ruled that practice was unconstitutional.

I am not worried about who votes, or when they vote, or who takes them to the polls. My problem is where are the over 50%, of the eligible voters, who just do not vote. I even bet they are ones that sit around and bitch the most when things don't go their way. Americans should be ashamed of it's voting percentage. Are we not the citadel of democracy?

[Guest]

So why don't you say what you mean....stop using code words. You want to keep the "welfare people" from voting because they don't "pay taxes". So would it follow that those people who do pay taxes should get more of a vote depending on how much of a tax bill they paid. So for example if you pay $10,000 you get one vote. But $20,000 1.1 votes.... The more you pay the bigger the vote.

Sounds really democratic to me.


You have made some silly posts in the past but this may be the silliest !

[Guest]

You have made some silly posts in the past but this may be the silliest !
:1rotfl: Thanks, I needed that. LOL

[Guest]

I wonder if we could get the 50% non-voting public to vote if we changed the ballots only slightly.

In addition to every candidate on the ballot, we add "None of the above".

I mean, even in South America, they got to vote "NO".

[Guest]

You have made some silly posts in the past but this may be the silliest !

So let me understand....in your mind it is perfectly ok for Donna2 to suggest that people who don't pay taxes should not be able to vote, even in light of the constitution. But my little parody of turning her post around is just silly.

Sure....

[Guest]

You accused me of talking in "code" I say that you were hoping I was talking in code so you could bait me with your left-wing talking points.

The whole meaning of my post was "Taxation without Representation"

Now we have representation without paying taxes. And yes, there is a generation or two with an entitlement mentality. Last I heard, health care is not in the constitution. You can pursue happiness. You also can pursue your own health care. Nobody can make you happy but yourself.
Another question: Howe can you keep having more entitlements with less and less people contributing? Again, 47% of the people in the USA do not pay taxes but expect other people to pay for it for them. They feel entitled.

Donna...the largest entitlement programs funded by the US government, which represent almost 50% of the budget, are Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid...not to mention the latest unfunded entitlement the Medicare prescription drug benefit. But you take SS and Medicare of the table because you are entitled to those.......

[Guest]

So let me understand....in your mind it is perfectly ok for Donna2 to suggest that people who don't pay taxes should not be able to vote, even in light of the constitution. But my little parody of turning her post around is just silly.

Sure....

She was making a point, and I suspect you knew that. You have often said that we on here take you too literally.

It was, and is, as silly silly thing to accuse someone of ! I dont know Donna but in reading her posts it would seem to me that she would be more likely to defend the constitution with much vigor.

You overreacted and attacked on an issue that DOES NOT EXIST ! And you knew it !

If you even scanned what she attached, you would find the author saying "it aint gonna happen" and that the entire conversation was to point out that HALF of american citizens do not pay one cent to the federal government via federal income taxes.

The article then ends by advocating growth of the voters, not the reduction.

You are much too quick to want to make an issue out of nothing.

There is also on the other side the concern about efforts to allow convicted felons to vote and also illegal immigrants which will be an issue very shortly !

[Guest]

Donna...the largest entitlement programs funded by the US government, which represent almost 50% of the budget, are Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid...not to mention the latest unfunded entitlement the Medicare prescription drug benefit. But you take SS and Medicare of the table because you are entitled to those.......

From my point of view....ABSOLUTELY on Social Security...the government has taken from me for YEARS and I will make a deal...gimme what you took and I will be happy ! So, from my point of view....YES I do feel entitled to Social Security !

[Guest]

Donna...the largest entitlement programs funded by the US government, which represent almost 50% of the budget, are Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid...not to mention the latest unfunded entitlement the Medicare prescription drug benefit. But you take SS and Medicare of the table because you are entitled to those.......

Every thing cost money. Nothing is free. The USA is going bankrupt. What don't you understand? People paid into SS and have a right to get it back. I have been putting into it for 57 years. Is that hard to understand?

[Guest]

She was making a point, and I suspect you knew that. You have often said that we on here take you too literally.

It was, and is, as silly silly thing to accuse someone of ! I don't know Donna but in reading her posts it would seem to me that she would be more likely to defend the constitution with much vigor.

You overreacted and attacked on an issue that DOES NOT EXIST ! And you knew it !

If you even scanned what she attached, you would find the author saying "it ain't gonna happen" and that the entire conversation was to point out that HALF of American citizens do not pay one cent to the federal government via federal income taxes.

The article then ends by advocating growth of the voters, not the reduction.

You are much too quick to want to make an issue out of nothing.

There is also on the other side the concern about efforts to allow convicted felons to vote and also illegal immigrants which will be an issue very shortly !

Well it seems that the Governor of Virginia has a plan for the felons...now they have to write an essay, to him, on why their vote should be reinstated.

By the way I paid my taxes this year as always.

[Guest]

Every thing cost money. Nothing is free. The USA is going bankrupt. What don't you understand? People paid into SS and have a right to get it back. I have been putting into it for 57 years. Is that hard to understand?

I am still working so I still putting into SS and Medicare. No one put in money for the prescription benefit that was an explanation of the Medicare entitlement program. Were you so outraged when GW Bush expanded this program without any funding? Is that when the Tea Parties started? This is a socialist program....did you ever call G W Bush a socialist?

I have been putting into the program since I was 16 years old for a told now of 44 years. My retirement age is 65 and I have absolutely no plans to work after retirement. So I will have paid for nearly 50 years. In studies that have been done most likely I will not get everything I paid into the program back. In fact it maybe bankrupt before I retire.

Yes the country is in trouble but we all need to be honest about how we got here...there is plenty of blame to go around.

[Guest]

Well it seems that the Governor of Virginia has a plan for the felons...now they have to write an essay, to him, on why their vote should be reinstated.

By the way I paid my taxes this year as always.


Then address your snide comments to the Governor of Virginia..not Donna.

And why would anyone care about YOUR taxes ???

[Guest]

I am still working so I still putting into SS and Medicare. No one put in money for the prescription benefit that was an explanation of the Medicare entitlement program. Were you so outraged when GW Bush expanded this program without any funding? Is that when the Tea Parties started? This is a socialist program....did you ever call G W Bush a socialist?

I have been putting into the program since I was 16 years old for a told now of 44 years. My retirement age is 65 and I have absolutely no plans to work after retirement. So I will have paid for nearly 50 years. In studies that have been done most likely I will not get everything I paid into the program back. In fact it maybe bankrupt before I retire.

Yes the country is in trouble but we all need to be honest about how we got here...there is plenty of blame to go around.

YOU just dont get it at all. What difference does Bush have to do with this....why is it all about PARTY with you....are you simply a blind party person.

Have you not read people critique the last adminstration for spending ? Why are you always posting simply on party lines.

This administration and congress are making ANY past administration of ANY party look like minor leaguers !

[Guest]

I am still working so I still putting into SS and Medicare. No one put in money for the prescription benefit that was an explanation of the Medicare entitlement program. Were you so outraged when GW Bush expanded this program without any funding? Is that when the Tea Parties started? This is a socialist program....did you ever call G W Bush a socialist?

I have been putting into the program since I was 16 years old for a told now of 44 years. My retirement age is 65 and I have absolutely no plans to work after retirement. So I will have paid for nearly 50 years. In studies that have been done most likely I will not get everything I paid into the program back. In fact it maybe bankrupt before I retire.

Yes the country is in trouble but we all need to be honest about how we got here...there is plenty of blame to go around.

How did President Bush get into the mix? Does everything have to go straight to the party line with you?

Many true conservatives were not very happy with that bill your talking about. Many people in tea party did not like it either.

I think the tea party is an accumulation of many things that have been happening for many years. Obama was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

Funny, the same baby boomers who are running and ruining our country were the protesters back in the 60's. Now the protesters are protesting them, and they are trying to demonize them.

[Guest]

If I'm not mistaken, voters in Maine and Vermont allow inmates in Maine and Vermont prisons to vote from prison.

Virginia voters have a long standing law that prohibits convicted felons of voting (or owning firearms, holding public office, to serve on juries and to serve as a Notary Public) unless they apply for and receive gubernatorial restoration of voting rights. They never gain their rights to own firearms. Some felons must wait three years before applying after completion of their sentence. People convicted of violent felonies, drug sales, and electoral offenses must wait five years. Governor McDonnell wants a letter from the inmate

According to the Richmond Times Dispatch : "Secretary of the Commonwealth Janet Polarek has said her office has begun to notify non violent voting rights restoration applicants in the pipeline to submit a letter. She said the letter will help her office understand circumstances of the case and more about the person’s story. It could actually streamline the process, Polarek contends, because the office will have details of the applicants at-the-ready.

"If the applicant can’t write the letter or would prefer not to, their attorney can write it for them, or the applicant can call her office directly and tell their story, she said."

Roger Clegg, JD, President and General Counsel at the Center for Equal Opportunity, stated the following in his Oct. 18, 2004 article "Perps and Politics, Why Felons Can't Vote," published in National Review:
"Individuals who have shown they are unwilling to follow the law cannot claim the right to make laws for the rest of us. We don't let everyone vote, not children, for instance, or noncitizens, or the mentally incompetent. We have certain minimum standards of trustworthiness before we let people participate in the serious business of self-government, and people who commit serious crimes don't meet those standards."

B.K. born in the great Commonwealth of Virginia (the birthplace of Presidents)

[Guest]

Once there is a VAT... this will all be a moot point. When you buy your ciggies and beer you'll be paying federal tax.... as it should be.

What do you mean? Are you for or against a Value Added Tax?

[Guest]

re-tire, there is already a federal tax on tobacco products and beer.

This is in addition to the state and local taxes imposed by localities for these items. This is also in addition federal income taxes, federal taxes on firearms and ammunition, air travel, communications like telephones, life insurance policies provided by employers, lottery winnings, import duties, gasoline (18.4 cents per gallon)....

The federal tax on cigerattes is already $1.01 per pack. Obama raised the tax by .62 cents (nearly 156 percent increase) in April 2009 to fund the State Children's Health Insurance Program (S-CHIP), which was a failing government program in many states.

In addition to the state and local taxes, the federal government imposes volume taxes on distilled spirits, wine, and beer that are in addition to state alcohol taxes. This tax is based on the percentage of alcohol in the product which is an average of .05 cents per can of beer, $2.14 (at 80 proof) per bottle of alcohol and wine is about .31 cents per bottle.

Also, the Value Added Tax, if imposed like the European Union's VAT, will affect every product we purchase with some exemptions or preferential rates on basic needs such as food, medicine, and clothing.

The Value Added Tax will increase the prices and won't replace the taxes already in place. If we don't believe the producers will pass it on to consumers, we're smoking something besides tobacco.

[Guest]

Every thing cost money. Nothing is free. The USA is going bankrupt. What don't you understand? People paid into SS and have a right to get it back. I have been putting into it for 57 years. Is that hard to understand?

No. You have not been 'paying into it'. You've been paying the people who were retired while you were paying FICA taxes. Now you're expecting, right or wrong, for the next generation to pay for you.

Executives of private companies go to jail for this sort of thing.

Until the mid 1980s, it was still a popular myth that Social Security was a fund where they kept an account of all the money you paid in. Took a long time for the word to get out on that one.

[Guest]

No. You have not been 'paying into it'. You've been paying the people who were retired while you were paying FICA taxes. Now you're expecting, right or wrong, for the next generation to pay for you.

Executives of private companies go to jail for this sort of thing.

Until the mid 1980s, it was still a popular myth that Social Security was a fund where they kept an account of all the money you paid in. Took a long time for the word to get out on that one.

You can twist it, turn it, shake it or plain old lie about it, but the fact is that I paid into it for 47 years. Why should I have to suffer because LBJ decided to tap into it and squander billions (trillions?) for his Vietnam War and his so-called War on Poverty.
How about this? How about all that money that went to the poverty people start paying us back now that their on their feet? They are on their feet now, right? Did we lose that war, too?

[Guest]

Donna, back to the original point and the article you included. I enjoyed the article. It shows the point that too much government control and involvement in our lives has made moochers of Americans. Once self-reliant, a growing number of working Americans are contributing little and taking alot. All offered by the government.

New tax credits like the child tax credit, Making Work Pay credit, and the First Time Homebuyer Credit allow middle-class families from paying any income tax. Obama's policies including health care and taxes are increasing the number of moochers and reducing the number of givers.

According to information from your linked story: "How much of that 47% who don’t pay income taxes are living in desperate poverty? The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America."

Also, "Both liberals and conservatives have always understood that massive entitlements for the middle class, such as the left-wing Holy Grail of socialized medicine, were the endgame. They only disagree in their perception of which game would be ending.

"Representation without taxation is not our fatal problem. People from every income group should accept the responsibility to vote wisely, and insist on absolute fidelity to the Constitution – that mighty covenant between free men and the lawful republic they defied the guns of empire to raise. Our legislators and President are meant to be the guardians of our freedom, not the engineers of our lives… or merchants who trade entitlements for power. The thick web of puppet strings which spread from our titanic State reach deep into the 53% who still pay taxes. Ignorance and ideology led us to this moment, not just the selfish votes of our permanent dependency class. The government needs to shrink, not the electorate."

[Guest]

YOU just dont get it at all. What difference does Bush have to do with this....why is it all about PARTY with you....are you simply a blind party person.

Have you not read people critique the last adminstration for spending ? Why are you always posting simply on party lines.

This administration and congress are making ANY past administration of ANY party look like minor leaguers !

And you NEVER post along party lines do you.

The actions of the previous administration have contributed to the budget problems now. When the Republicans were in power they spent like drunken sailors but where was the outrage about spending then. The Tea Party people were slient. It is fair to compare and contrast except in this forum. I clearly said there is enough blame to go around. But you won't accept any blame for what the party you support has done.

As for my taxes....I pay them and I pay quite alot and I don't complain about it.

[Guest]

Donna, back to the original point and the article you included. I enjoyed the article. It shows the point that too much government control and involvement in our lives has made moochers of Americans. Once self-reliant, a growing number of working Americans are contributing little and taking alot. All offered by the government.

New tax credits like the child tax credit, Making Work Pay credit, and the First Time Homebuyer Credit allow middle-class families from paying any income tax. Obama's policies including health care and taxes are increasing the number of moochers and reducing the number of givers.

According to information from your linked story: "How much of that 47% who don’t pay income taxes are living in desperate poverty? The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America."

Also, "Both liberals and conservatives have always understood that massive entitlements for the middle class, such as the left-wing Holy Grail of socialized medicine, were the endgame. They only disagree in their perception of which game would be ending.

"Representation without taxation is not our fatal problem. People from every income group should accept the responsibility to vote wisely, and insist on absolute fidelity to the Constitution – that mighty covenant between free men and the lawful republic they defied the guns of empire to raise. Our legislators and President are meant to be the guardians of our freedom, not the engineers of our lives… or merchants who trade entitlements for power. The thick web of puppet strings which spread from our titanic State reach deep into the 53% who still pay taxes. Ignorance and ideology led us to this moment, not just the selfish votes of our permanent dependency class. The government needs to shrink, not the electorate."

BK. I just re-read it. It was written by Dr. Zero. I just posted another thread featuring his essay on Capitalism. The man is brilliant.

[Guest]

And you NEVER post along party lines do you.

The actions of the previous administration have contributed to the budget problems now. When the Republicans were in power they spent like drunken sailors but where was the outrage about spending then. The Tea Party people were slient. It is fair to compare and contrast except in this forum. I clearly said there is enough blame to go around. But you won't accept any blame for what the party you support has done.

As for my taxes....I pay them and I pay quite alot and I don't complain about it.

1. I do not post along party lines. I am conservative for sure and since this board has only been in existence since the primary season in 2008 and I absolutely opposed the current President, you are simply jumping to conclusions.

2. There is no doubt in anyones mind that the previous administration spent too much..NONE and we all thank you for consistently reminding us of that. The Tea party, you are correct, never said a word. To my knowledge it did not exist until recently and that may be the reason. I might add that this administration has with great purpose put everyone else to shame when it comes to spending. Please justify the so called "stimulus" bill...not TARP...the Stimulus !

3. You have brought up your taxes twice in this particular thread. Not sure if you want congratulations or what..but congratulations !~

[Guest]

1. I do not post along party lines. I am conservative for sure and since this board has only been in existence since the primary season in 2008 and I absolutely opposed the current President, you are simply jumping to conclusions.

2. There is no doubt in anyones mind that the previous administration spent too much..NONE and we all thank you for consistently reminding us of that. The Tea party, you are correct, never said a word. To my knowledge it did not exist until recently and that may be the reason. I might add that this administration has with great purpose put everyone else to shame when it comes to spending. Please justify the so called "stimulus" bill...not TARP...the Stimulus !

3. You have brought up your taxes twice in this particular thread. Not sure if you want congratulations or what..but congratulations !~


You justify TARP and then I will justify the Stimulus.

[Guest]

You justify TARP and then I will justify the Stimulus.

The stimulus bill (aka the Porkulus Bill) was passed with the Obama promise of unemployment would not go over 8% and millions of jobs would be created. Under Obama's Porkulus bill the unemployment rate is over 13% in some states and it has not created ONE private sector job.






“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; it’s inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill

[Guest]

45% of self-identified tea partiers make less than $50,000 per year according to a USA/Gallup poll. Similarly 50% of the entire populationmakes less than $50,000 a year. It seems safe to assume that if about half the country avoids income taxes a similar percentage of the tea party people get away with the same even as they march and scream about their tax burden. Tea partiers want lower income taxes but many of them pay none now.So I guess according to the original thread by Donna many tea partiers should not vote unless of course they are all honorable and there are no slackers among them.

[Guest]

The stimulus bill (aka the Porkulus Bill) was passed with the Obama promise of unemployment would not go over 8% and millions of jobs would be created. Under Obama's Porkulus bill the unemployment rate is over 13% in some states and it has not created ONE private sector job.






“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; it’s inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill

It best never to say NOT ONE job.

[Guest]

Donna, back to the original point and the article you included. I enjoyed the article. It shows the point that too much government control and involvement in our lives has made moochers of Americans. Once self-reliant, a growing number of working Americans are contributing little and taking alot. All offered by the government.

New tax credits like the child tax credit, Making Work Pay credit, and the First Time Homebuyer Credit allow middle-class families from paying any income tax. Obama's policies including health care and taxes are increasing the number of moochers and reducing the number of givers.

According to information from your linked story: "How much of that 47% who don’t pay income taxes are living in desperate poverty? The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America."

Also, "Both liberals and conservatives have always understood that massive entitlements for the middle class, such as the left-wing Holy Grail of socialized medicine, were the endgame. They only disagree in their perception of which game would be ending.

"Representation without taxation is not our fatal problem. People from every income group should accept the responsibility to vote wisely, and insist on absolute fidelity to the Constitution – that mighty covenant between free men and the lawful republic they defied the guns of empire to raise. Our legislators and President are meant to be the guardians of our freedom, not the engineers of our lives… or merchants who trade entitlements for power. The thick web of puppet strings which spread from our titanic State reach deep into the 53% who still pay taxes. Ignorance and ideology led us to this moment, not just the selfish votes of our permanent dependency class. The government needs to shrink, not the electorate."

I can't believe what I am reading.....the middleclass is the engine of the economy.

[Guest]

It best never to say NOT ONE job.

Your right, of course. It could very well be 100,000 negative jobs. In other words the stimulus could have lost more jobs then it gained?


Thanks for the correction.

[Guest]

cologal, what do you mean, "I can't believe what I am reading.....the middleclass is the engine of the economy." ?

[Guest]

I also can't believe what I'm reading.Anyone who rails against child tax credits,work pay credits and first homebuyer credits that help an ever shrinking middle class and says nothing about corporate welfare(Exxon-Mobil paid $0000000 in Fed. income tax and there are more)or the huge tax breaks the wealthy have been given over the past 20 years mystifies me. Why are you defending the weathiest 1% and punishing the middle class is beyond my comprehension.I happen to be part of that middle class and when someone like you wants to take away the few advantages that I have tax wise and totally ignore the wealthy and all their advantages and big business and all their tax loopholes I just don't get it. Do you realize that I paid more federal income tax than Exxon!!

[Guest]

How am I punishing anyone waynet? I mean, you say you are one of the middle class whose being brought down to the poverty level by government and now you are trying to get every thing the can from the government. How did I contribute to that?

[Guest]

I also can't believe what I'm reading.Anyone who rails against child tax credits,work pay credits and first homebuyer credits that help an ever shrinking middle class and says nothing about corporate welfare(Exxon-Mobil paid $0000000 in Fed. income tax and there are more)or the huge tax breaks the wealthy have been given over the past 20 years mystifies me. Why are you defending the weathiest 1% and punishing the middle class is beyond my comprehension.I happen to be part of that middle class and when someone like you wants to take away the few advantages that I have tax wise and totally ignore the wealthy and all their advantages and big business and all their tax loopholes I just don't get it. Do you realize that I paid more federal income tax than Exxon!!


Wayne...you do understand that you are comparing CORPORATE income tax with PERSONAL income tax and that PERSONAL income tax is the subject, right ?

[Guest]

what one understands, but figures don't lie.


The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.

[Guest]

For Donna http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3090&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cbpp%2FfYJq+%28Center+on+Budg et+and+Policy+Priorities%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo
for BK I am in the middle class. that much you got right. I did not say I was being brought down to the poverty level by the gov't and I did not say I was trying to get everthing from the gov't. What I am saying is that your post against the middle class is uncalled for.
Bucco, I do understand. What I don't understand is that I paid more U.S. federal income tax than a corporation that showed a profit of $45 BILLION and some posters say the middle class gets too many tax breaks.
And finally so what if the rich pay more taxes than anyone else. They are supposed to. They are alotted far more advantages and they have the most to lose. Just let them pay at the rates when Reagan was President. They seemed to do alright then. And please don't tell me how many jobs the rich have created and that if we tax them at a higher rate they will stop creating jobs.

[Guest]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/02/17/top400/

[Guest]

From Waynet

"Bucco, I do understand. What I don't understand is that I paid more U.S. federal income tax than a corporation that showed a profit of $45 BILLION and some posters say the middle class gets too many tax breaks."


If you do understand that the thread is about PERSONAL income taxes...then why do you keep alluding to CORPORATE taxes ? There is no comparison for you to make !!!

If you want to start a thread on CORPORATE tax then please do so and remember that our wonderful congress is the body that writes the laws that allows corporations to set up small subs in other countries, etc. So your constant attack on anyone who YOU consider to be upper class is unwarranted.

[Guest]

You still didn't answer my question waynet. Respectively, how am I punishing anyone? How did I contribute to the problem you described? With all due respect, you said you are part of, "an ever shrinking middle class."
If the middle class you are still apart of is shrinking, where are they going? They aren't disappearing from the face of the earth. They are either getting poorer or richer if they are "shrinking." Right?

And you also said, "when someone like you wants to take away the few advantages that I have tax wise..." I just assumed you were trying to get everything you can back from the government.

To be honest, I don't blame you. It's your money anyway. The discussion wasn't about big corporations. I didn't defend them and the government regulations and tax breaks they get.

But please, answer my first questions.

[Guest]

I am a bit confused....didnt this thread begin as a discussion on the 47% of american folks who pay no federal income taxes and actually use it as an income stream.

I dont recall anyone complaining about tax rates of the rich...or corporate tax at any time !

[Guest]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joe_conason/2010/02/17/top400/

Politics of envy? As old as the hills. Have you ever worked for a poor man? Oh, that's right, you said you were a teacher so you worked for a rich country? Who paid your salary? Not the bottom 47%, huh?

[Guest]

Politics of envy? As old as the hills. Have you ever worked for a poor man? Oh, that's right, you said you were a teacher so you worked for a rich country? Who paid your salary? Not the bottom 47%, huh?

Donna....less you forget Income taxes are NOT the only taxes that are paid. Payroll taxes, Social Security Taxes and Medicare Taxes as well as property taxes. In most states it is property taxes which primarily fund the school systems. The bottom 47% do pay property taxes and might not pay income taxes based on deductions. Remember the child deduction was increased to $1000 per child. Working families can contribute to a childcare spending account as well as a healthcare spending account which will reduce the federal income tax bill.


Bet they didn't come all this on Fox Noise.....

[Guest]

Your right, of course. It could very well be 100,000 negative jobs. In other words the stimulus could have lost more jobs then it gained?


Thanks for the correction.

Not hardly.....Haven't you read the papers lately?

[Guest]

cologal, what do you mean, "I can't believe what I am reading.....the middleclass is the engine of the economy." ?

Middle class spending has been the driving economic force. When that dries up the economic tanks. Just look around now the banks and wall street are soaring but....

[Guest]

So, cologal, if you already knew that, why did you say, "I can't believe what I am reading..."? I'm not be adversarial with you at all. But what you just said, "Middle class spending has been the driving economic force. When that dries up the economic tanks," that is the basic premise of the original article.

[Guest]

Not hardly.....Haven't you read the papers lately?

Yes I have. The stimulus package was suppose to create 3.6 millions jobs. The only "jobs" it has created are teachers and census takers. Those are not really "jobs" since they are paid by tax money.

[Guest]

Donna....less you forget Income taxes are NOT the only taxes that are paid. Payroll taxes, Social Security Taxes and Medicare Taxes as well as property taxes. In most states it is property taxes which primarily fund the school systems. The bottom 47% do pay property taxes and might not pay income taxes based on deductions. Remember the child deduction was increased to $1000 per child. Working families can contribute to a childcare spending account as well as a healthcare spending account which will reduce the federal income tax bill.


Bet they didn't come all this on Fox Noise.....

This thread is about income taxes.

I did not get my info from Fox News.

[Guest]

Does it make sense when people justify, uphold and endorse ways for the average middle class to escape paying taxes, but then not to blink when new taxes are imposed?

[Guest]

Donna,I'm afraid your intense hatred for Pres Obama has messed with your mind. Do you really believe that "jobs created by tax money are not jobs" that teaching,police work,firemen,are not jobs. Tht's really nonsense!

[Guest]

Also Donna as far as paying for my salary it is the "slackers" as you like to call them. Many of them pay property taxes that fund education.

[Guest]

Donna,I'm afraid your intense hatred for Pres Obama has messed with your mind. Do you really believe that "jobs created by tax money are not jobs" that teaching,police work,firemen,are not jobs. Tht's really nonsense!
Private sector jobs create real money that pays public servants.

[Guest]

For Bk...how are you punishing me? with your words...Agrowing number of working Americansare contributing little and taking alot. Then you call me a moocher.Middle class entitlements are a tumor. Now I'm a cancer.Massive entitlements for the middle class. Now I'm a pig. Middle class escape paying taxes. Now I'm a thief. So,now I understand your feelings for me and my fellow middle class workers: We are moochers,cancerous,stealing pigs who are solely responsible for all that is wrong in America.
You know when I was serving in Viet Nam I met lots of middle class men and women and lots of poor folks also. I wonder what they would think of someone calling them names like that.

[Guest]

waynet, let's get one thing straight. I NEVER said anything about you.

I asked cologal to explain a post she made and you volunteered an answer. That is fine. In your answer you represented that I had done something personally to punish you.

The only thing I have said to you was to ask how I was punishing you and how I was contributing to you being brought down by the government (which you never answered).

I deliberately go out of my way to be polite with everyone on this forum whether I agree with them or not. The things you accused me of saying to you in your post are out and out lies.

I don't for the life of me understand why you would do that.

[Guest]

waynet, let's get one thing straight. I NEVER said anything about you.

I asked cologal to explain a post she made and you volunteered an answer. That is fine. In your answer you represented that I had done something personally to punish you.

The only thing I have said to you was to ask how I was punishing you and how I was contributing to you being brought down by the government (which you never answered).

I deliberately go out of my way to be polite with everyone on this forum whether I agree with them or not. The things you accused me of saying to you in your post are out and out lies.

I don't for the life of me understand why you would do that.

Ah, don't let him get to you. Instead of talking in generalities, liberals like to address someone personally. They love to attack the messenger instead of the message.

[Guest]

BK,I took the lines directly from your post word for word. I am a member of the middle class and you seem to not like the middle class for some reason.

[Guest]

Hey Donna and your conservatives really like to face the issues? That's a joke. You haven't solved a problem in 8 years. I have not seen one post of yours where a solution was offered just constant personal critism and whining. As I said earlier your hatred for Obama does not allow you to make any rational decisions you just constantlt parrot Fox News.

[Guest]

Hey Donna and your conservatives really like to face the issues? That's a joke. You haven't solved a problem in 8 years. I have not seen one post of yours where a solution was offered just constant personal critism and whining. As I said earlier your hatred for Obama does not allow you to make any rational decisions you just constantlt parrot Fox News.

Do you get emails each and every day from MOVEON ?

[Guest]

You say you quoted me "word for word" calling you those names and saying those things about you? You really are confused waynet.

The only thing I have said to you was to ask how I was punishing you and how I was contributing to you being brought down by the government (which you STILL never answered).

Show me where, even when I was quoting from the original linked op/ed piece, that I used the words you say I used. Why would you deliberately tell lies about me waynet?

[Guest]

Bk please reread posts 34 and 61. That is where I got the words ,your words from. Your attacks on the middle class are an attack on me because I am part of the middle class.

[Guest]

waynet, I have never made any attacks on the middle class or against you.

Once again pure vicious lies.

If you really believe what you are saying about me is true; you will never understand anything I post.

[Guest]

The point of this thread, is that 47% of Americans are not paying income taxes. When the top money earners get hit with more taxes, what will be the incentive for them to earn more money? When they earn more money, they pay more taxes. Liberals love to beat up the rich, but they are biting the hand that feeds us. The rich do the investing and the hiring. What don't you liberal class envy baiters not understand?

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.

[Guest]

I can't believe what I am reading.....the middle class is the engine of the economy.
BK... I went back to read the original post and here is what I reacted to:

New tax credits like the child tax credit, Making Work Pay credit, and the First Time Home buyer Credit allow middle-class families from paying any income tax. Obama's policies including health care and taxes are increasing the number of moochers and reducing the number of givers.

With this quote sending me completely over the edge:

According to information from your linked story: "How much of that 47% who don’t pay income taxes are living in desperate poverty? The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America."

Now all of a sudden the working poor and middle class are being targeted. Why? Its OK bail out the banks but not the homeowners, it ok to pay big bonuses to Wall Street because it was a contractual agreement but the Auto Workers had to re-negotiate their contracts and accept lower wages.

What about corporate entitlements, tax breaks and special tax code?

The goods for sale will only sell if someone can afford to buy them.....

[Guest]

Poor liberals. They make a living and get elected by constantly beating up the rich and now they are crying because they get a little hit. Class envy has always been the socialist's weapon of choice. If you can dish it out then you should also take it.

[Guest]

Poor liberals. They make a living and get elected by constantly beating up the rich and now they are crying because they get a little hit. Class envy has always been the socialist's weapon of choice. If you can dish it out then you should also take it.

You make no sense....with this post. Who has class envy? Who here is a socialist?

What about this Donna....GE paid no taxes this year and Bank of America


http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/16/news/companies/ge_7000_tax_returns/

[Guest]

You make no sense....with this post. Who has class envy? Who here is a socialist?

What about this Donna....GE paid no taxes this year and Bank of America


http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/16/news/companies/ge_7000_tax_returns/

LOL You made me laugh. You are a riot. Democrats use class envy to get elected, like their socialist hero Barry Soetoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama)

Wealth redistribution has always been the ultimate goal of the Socialist Democrat Party.

[Guest]

LOL You made me laugh. You are a riot. Democrats use class envy to get elected, like their socialist hero Barry Soetoro (aka Barack Hussein Obama)

Wealth redistribution has always been the ultimate goal of the Socialist Democrat Party.

So now the whole Democratic Party is Socialist....just remember which party brought you that Social Security check you cash each month and Medicare your entitlement healthcare. Both of those programs are so totally socialist.

Red Baiting ....thought that went out in the 50's ...but we have had that discussion before.

As usual you didn't answer the question about my link....what do you think about GE...General Electric and Bank of America paying no income taxes?

[Guest]

cologal, we both agree the article Donna linked is an opinion piece. Let's also both agree, for the purpose of this discussion, that the information like the statistics stated as facts in the article are true.

Other parts of the op/ed, like the statement, "The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America," are written figuratively. We both agree the writer isn't saying people are somehow anatomically or physically transforming into sick, dying tumors or that people are actually lying in hospital beds.

No. Since the writer is writing an opinion editorial, the statement uses metaphors and other figures of speech to make emphasis. Like saying the Rocky Mountains are the spine of the country. Or love is a rose. We both know the Rockies aren't a spinal column with vertebrae. Or that a rose has emotions like love. They are figures of speech.

The reason the middle class was being targeted or looked at in the piece is a warning to middle class about what is happening.

As we allow the government more and more control and more and more taxes are heaped upon us, it is only natural that we try to hold onto our money. The IRS doesn't' sit with a gun at someones head while they prepare their tax returns and force them to take the tax credits given by the government.

Of course not. But as times get tougher, people naturally want to keep their money. Taking advantage of every opportunity to hold onto your money isn't a bad thing or the point of the article. It's the reason behind why people are doing this. The article is suppose to make you think and try to reason about why middle class America (the backbone of America) is even being offered these tax rebates or entitlements and what happens when we keep taking them.

The article is saying that as the government keeps putting us in a position to make us claim our right to certain things, things like tax advantages; when we give up our money and our dependency on the government (for tax breaks, etc.) keeps growing stronger, we become weaker and sicker and our way of life eventually dies. I used a figure of speech to try to get a point across here. Because of this cycle, when we keep getting weaker and sicker (figuratively) and we don't take medicine to make us better or find doctors to cure us it becomes terminal. The writer uses the metaphor of a hospice to invoke emotion. It worked. Hospices, we all know, are for end of life care.

I hope that made sense. I love this country. I am proud of the things that Americans have done to build this country into the strongest, most generous, productive people on earth.

But never forget that it was the people, not the government who has done this. I don't think the government should collect taxes to bail anyone out. I think the government getting involved in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has done exactly what the writer of the article was warning will happen to the working middle class. I think we can agree on one thing, the government's involvement and the tax breaks and entitlements they allow in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has made moochers of them.

[Guest]

cologal, we both agree the article Donna linked is an opinion piece. Let's also both agree, for the purpose of this discussion, that the information like the statistics stated as facts in the article are true.

Other parts of the op/ed, like the statement, "The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America," are written figuratively. We both agree the writer isn't saying people are somehow anatomically or physically transforming into sick, dying tumors or that people are actually lying in hospital beds.

No. Since the writer is writing an opinion editorial, the statement uses metaphors and other figures of speech to make emphasis. Like saying the Rocky Mountains are the spine of the country. Or love is a rose. We both know the Rockies aren't a spinal column with vertebrae. Or that a rose has emotions like love. They are figures of speech.

The reason the middle class was being targeted or looked at in the piece is a warning to middle class about what is happening.

As we allow the government more and more control and more and more taxes are heaped upon us, it is only natural that we try to hold onto our money. The IRS doesn't' sit with a gun at someones head while they prepare their tax returns and force them to take the tax credits given by the government.

Of course not. But as times get tougher, people naturally want to keep their money. Taking advantage of every opportunity to hold onto your money isn't a bad thing or the point of the article. It's the reason behind why people are doing this. The article is suppose to make you think and try to reason about why middle class America (the backbone of America) is even being offered these tax rebates or entitlements and what happens when we keep taking them.

The article is saying that as the government keeps putting us in a position to make us claim iour right to certain things, things like tax advantages; when we give up our money and our dependency on the government (for tax breaks, etc.) keeps growing stronger, we become weaker and sicker and our way of life eventually dies. I used a figure of speech to try to get a point across here. Because of this cycle, when we keep getting weaker and sicker (figuratively) and we don't take medicine to make us better or find doctors to cure us it becomes terminal. The writer uses the metaphor of a hospice to invoke emotion. It worked. Hospices, we all know, are for end of life care.

I hope that made sense. I love this country. I am proud of the things that Americans have done to build this country into the strongest, most generous, productive people on earth.

But never forget that it was the people, not the government who has done this. I don't think the government should collect taxes to bail anyone out. I think the government getting involved in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has done exactly what the writer of the article was warning will happen to the working middle class. I think we can agree on one thing, the government's involvement and the tax breaks and entitlements the allow in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has made moochers of them.

I appreciate the response. And yes we can agree that tax breaks and entitlements have made moochers on both sides. Its a point I try to consistently make. I do believe though that having a social safety net available is not an inherently bad thing as long as limits are in place. So I totally support Work fair instead of Welfare...I would welcome a review of the Social Security Disability system as whole multi generational families seem to be plagued by the same none genetic disease.

My father talked to me about taxes when I was young....he summed it up like this....ya got to make money and the more you make the more you pay. Of course in those days we didn't have 401k's, IRA's and the like.

Thanks for the discussion.....going golfing, my days in TV are coming to a close for this year.

[Guest]

cologal, I had to smile when I read your father's wise words about taxes. My father, God willing, will be 91 years old on 9/11. I made a comment to him recently about the high taxes my husband and I pay. He said his father used to tell him that he wished he paid more taxes because it meant he was making more money. That was a different generation and a different world wasn't it?
Have fun golfing. Safe travels.

[Guest]

cologal, I had to smile when I read your father's wise words about taxes. My father, God willing, will be 91 years old on 9/11. I made a comment to him recently about the high taxes my husband and I pay. He said his father used to tell him that he wished he paid more taxes because it meant he was making more money. That was a different generation and a different world wasn't it?
Have fun golfing. Safe travels.

That is so funny... and it was a different world. Take Care.

[Guest]

cologal, we both agree the article Donna linked is an opinion piece. Let's also both agree, for the purpose of this discussion, that the information like the statistics stated as facts in the article are true.

Other parts of the op/ed, like the statement, "The truth is that middle-class entitlements are the unsustainable tumor which fills the beds of Hospice America," are written figuratively. We both agree the writer isn't saying people are somehow anatomically or physically transforming into sick, dying tumors or that people are actually lying in hospital beds.

No. Since the writer is writing an opinion editorial, the statement uses metaphors and other figures of speech to make emphasis. Like saying the Rocky Mountains are the spine of the country. Or love is a rose. We both know the Rockies aren't a spinal column with vertebrae. Or that a rose has emotions like love. They are figures of speech.

The reason the middle class was being targeted or looked at in the piece is a warning to middle class about what is happening.

As we allow the government more and more control and more and more taxes are heaped upon us, it is only natural that we try to hold onto our money. The IRS doesn't' sit with a gun at someones head while they prepare their tax returns and force them to take the tax credits given by the government.

Of course not. But as times get tougher, people naturally want to keep their money. Taking advantage of every opportunity to hold onto your money isn't a bad thing or the point of the article. It's the reason behind why people are doing this. The article is suppose to make you think and try to reason about why middle class America (the backbone of America) is even being offered these tax rebates or entitlements and what happens when we keep taking them.

The article is saying that as the government keeps putting us in a position to make us claim iour right to certain things, things like tax advantages; when we give up our money and our dependency on the government (for tax breaks, etc.) keeps growing stronger, we become weaker and sicker and our way of life eventually dies. I used a figure of speech to try to get a point across here. Because of this cycle, when we keep getting weaker and sicker (figuratively) and we don't take medicine to make us better or find doctors to cure us it becomes terminal. The writer uses the metaphor of a hospice to invoke emotion. It worked. Hospices, we all know, are for end of life care.

I hope that made sense. I love this country. I am proud of the things that Americans have done to build this country into the strongest, most generous, productive people on earth.

But never forget that it was the people, not the government who has done this. I don't think the government should collect taxes to bail anyone out. I think the government getting involved in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has done exactly what the writer of the article was warning will happen to the working middle class. I think we can agree on one thing, the government's involvement and the tax breaks and entitlements the allow in banking, Wall Street, American labor and corporate business has made moochers of them.

Great explanation BK. Very articulate, indeed.