Putting the immigration "flow" in perspective...

[billethkid]

Would anybody have guessed over 23,000 PER WEEK!!!!

Sustained at that rate = 1.2 million per year.

See the following update for additional perspective of the issues/problems:

Exclusive: DHS data shows growing surge of migrants at the border - Axios (https://www.axios.com/immigation-surge-migrant-families-southern-border-dhs-ce83285d-5275-45f5-bbaf-df707ad545d2.html)

We talk about and get to hear a lot about things like global warming and how it is going to affect the future of Americans cities.
There needs to be more discussion about the immigration issue and how, uncontrolled, it will change the future of many American cities.

I am not sure enough American citizens are aware the potential these numbers have on almost every aspect of American way of life.

Hopefully this thread survives being shut down.....the subject needs discussion. It matters not the religion, politics or race.....the impact will affect all.

It certainly can be allowed/tolerated to continue uncontrolled.....as long as people know the results and effects.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

[manaboutown]

Legal immigration built this country, at least those who came with skills and the desire to work. We would be better off without those who came for welfare and criminal lifestyles.

The various current illegal alien/immigrant invasions need to be stopped.

[seoulbrooks]

There is a huge difference between legal immigration and entering the country as an illegal. Lots of folks do not like calling someone an illegal immigrant. Just want to use the term immigrant, which is incorrect. A huge difference between legal/illegal.

[Kerry Azz]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

Our country and values were built on immigrants coming to America and making a life here!
If someone is not happy with having people coming into the country they are always free to leave.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Legal immigration built this country, at least those who came with skills and the desire to work. We would be better off without those who came for welfare and criminal lifestyles.

The various current illegal alien/immigrant invasions need to be stopped.

You really should re-visit your history lessons. This country was founded on hostile invasion of uninvited foreigners. They were not "legal immigrants." There was no system of law in place to determine immigration status. But they did come, by the hundreds, bringing disease and death with them.

There are many reasons to want to step up on existing immigration law and border patrol. "This country was founded on legal immigration" is not one of them.

[anothersteve]

Our country and values were built on immigrants coming to America and making a life here!
If someone is not happy with having people coming into the country they are always free to leave.

Or maybe try something different. Deport them if they are here illegally.
I'm not leaving, that would be silly.. and is a silly suggestion.
Steve
Oh and I think this thread will get shut down PDQ.

[billethkid]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

All of our immigrant family members followed the law, entering legally and then pursued the rigorous requirement to become a US citizen.

The subject is illegal entry into the USA being uncontrolled and please note that no where in my comments did I suggest or state any dislike for immigration.

[Edjkoz]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

I think we are talking about illegal immigration. There is a big difference between legal and illegal. I doubt anyone has a problem with legal immigration

[billethkid]

The only reason this thread will wind up shut down is the propensity for many posts to take stray and debate a difference of opinion or interpretation then focusing on each other.

The thread is about the problems resulting from the hoards of immigrants entering illegally and the problems and impacts created in the communities they take residence.

[ColdNoMore]

You really should re-visit your history lessons. This country was founded on hostile invasion of uninvited foreigners. They were not "legal immigrants." There was no system of law in place to determine immigration status. But they did come, by the hundreds, bringing disease and death with them.

There are many reasons to want to step up on existing immigration law and border patrol. "This country was founded on legal immigration" is not one of them.

Yep...exactly. :oops:

All too many conveniently forget, or purposely ignore, that this country was actually founded/built by "immigrants" who didn't have to do anything more than show up...and use superior force to subjugate those who had been here for thousands of years.

While we definitely have to have some sensible immigration laws, I truly believe that the biggest fear of a lot of folks is that the unstated adage of "white + might = right"...might be slipping away. :ohdear:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The only reason this thread will wind up shut down is the propensity for many posts to take stray and debate a difference of opinion or interpretation then focusing on each other.

The thread is about the problems resulting from the hoards of immigrants entering illegally and the problems and impacts created in the communities they take residence.

Except using your own data source - those are not people who have entered illegally. Those are people who were STOPPED from entering illegally. They never got through. They were either arrested or turned away.

So your entire concern is based on something that isn't even true according to your own source of data.

[billethkid]

Yep...exactly. :oops:

All too many conveniently forget, or purposely ignore, that this country was actually founded/built by "immigrants" who didn't have to do anything more than show up...and use superior force to subjugate those who had been here for thousands of years.

While we definitely have to have some sensible immigration laws, I truly believe that the biggest fear of a lot of folks is that the unstated adage of "white + might = right"...might be slipping away. :ohdear:

The thread is about illegal immigration and it's impact on where the take up residence.

[Fredster]

Yep...exactly. :oops:

All too many conveniently forget, or purposely ignore, that this country was actually founded/built by "immigrants" who didn't have to do anything more than show up...and use superior force to subjugate those who had been here for thousands of years.

While we definitely have to have some sensible immigration laws, I truly believe that the biggest fear of a lot of folks is that the unstated adage of "white + might = right"...might be slipping away. :ohdear:

Why did you have to interject race into this
discussion which is about massive illegal immigration,
and it’s effects on cities, states and the country?
Personally I’m for legal immigration no matter
where the immigrants may be from!
I also believe in law and order in a country,
as a basis for bringing
about positive conditions beneficial to all citizens!

[choppers62]

You really should re-visit your history lessons. This country was founded on hostile invasion of uninvited foreigners. They were not "legal immigrants." There was no system of law in place to determine immigration status. But they did come, by the hundreds, bringing disease and death with them.

There are many reasons to want to step up on existing immigration law and border patrol. "This country was founded on legal immigration" is not one of them.

I am Native American...how do you think we felt when your ancestors came to America...bringing diseases and death to our people?

[SouthOfTheBorder]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

Here is my take on this issue....

If you go back far enough in history ALL humans came into "the Americas" from another land.

No humans were here when what we now call "America" was formed.

Even today's "Native American's" started here as immigrants from another land.

After tens of thousands years have passed why should anyone care who immigrated here first?

:thumbup:

Don

[villagerjack]

Yep...exactly. :oops:

All too many conveniently forget, or purposely ignore, that this country was actually founded/built by "immigrants" who didn't have to do anything more than show up...and use superior force to subjugate those who had been here for thousands of years.

While we definitely have to have some sensible immigration laws, I truly believe that the biggest fear of a lot of folks is that the unstated adage of "white + might = right"...might be slipping away. :ohdear:

You are not referring to the hundreds of thousands of white menwho fought, were wounded and died in all the wars that saved this Country from destruction....are you ?

[manaboutown]

Here is my take on this issue....

If you go back far enough in history ALL humans came into "the Americas" from another land.

No humans were here when what we now call "America" was formed.

Even today's "Native American's" started here as immigrants from another land.

After tens of thousands years have passed why should anyone care who immigrated here first?

:thumbup:

Don

:BigApplause:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I am Native American...how do you think we felt when your ancestors came to America...bringing diseases and death to our people?

My ancestors came right before WWII. If they hadn't, they would've experienced the same atrocities your people experienced, in concentration camps. That's kind of why I take offense with this entire tirade against immigrants - legal or otherwise.

[Moderator]

The topic is current illegal immigration issues in this country. Please stay on topic. Discuss the topic and not each other.

This is a current events issue. We would like to see it continue with reasonable discussion that avoids partisan political jabs and personal attacks.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Moderator

[sallybowron]

Only around 2% of American citizens are Native American, of Native American ancestry. The other 98% are either immigrants, or descended of immigrants. There are around 328 million American citizens, total. That means over 280 million people living in this country are either immigrants, or descendants of immigrants. If immigrants living in the USA is really offensive to you, then be the change.

I did not know that the numbers for immigration were so high. I did not realize the number of Native Americans was so low. I am a descendant of immigrants, yet I am allowed to be here. My nephew married a woman who came here legally from somewhere down in Mexico or Central America. She and her sisters and brothers all have jobs here in the states and raise their children well. She has just discovered that her green card is no longer valid. What to do? Should she take her 7 yo son, who is an American citizen back to Mexico, leaving her husband and family. In speaking with a lawyer she was told Mexico would not let her come back.
When we talk to her she tells us of the horrible conditions the people live through and are trying to get out of. People do not walk as far as some have walked unless there is something horrible from which they are escaping. I consider myself extremely lucky to live in a land which affords us such a wonderful life. We took it away from the Indians and got away from it.
I do not know what the answer is but it seems that we as such a privileged land needs to help alleviate some of the horrible conditions that force people to emigrate from their countries. I don't believe that God, who died for all of our souls, accepts that we just look the other way. :pray::pray::pray:

[sallybowron]

Legal immigration built this country, at least those who came with skills and the desire to work. We would be better off without those who came for welfare and criminal lifestyles.

The various current illegal alien/immigrant invasions need to be stopped.

I agree, but how?

[sallybowron]

I am Native American...how do you think we felt when your ancestors came to America...bringing diseases and death to our people?

I am sure it made you feel horrible. I am so sorry that the immigrants coming in then did that!:ohdear::ohdear::ohdear:

[queasy27]

Except using your own data source - those are not people who have entered illegally. Those are people who were STOPPED from entering illegally. They never got through. They were either arrested or turned away.

Exactly. Is the discussion intended to be about how many asylum seekers and potential immigrants are prevented from entering each week? If so, this is from the Department of Homeland Security (https://www.dhs.gov/topic/border-security). They are puffing themselves up, but:

"CBP Border Patrol apprehensions have dropped by 53 percent since 2008, indicating that fewer people are attempting to illegally cross the border; while the Border Patrol is better staffed than at any time in its history with more than 21,000 border agents— most of these agents at the Southwest border.

Patrols in the Southwest have substantially increased the amount of drugs, guns, and cash seized over the last three years:

74 percent more money
41 percent more drugs, and
159 percent more weapons have been apprehended.

Additionally, since 2008, crime rates have fallen in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas."

It's distressing to me on a human level that so many people in countries with poor or unstable economies leave the only homes and families they know and whose best hope is to attempt to enter the US knowing they will not be allowed in. How desperate must they be?

All four of my grandparents were immigrants through Ellis Island in the 20s and 30s, but boy has the door ever slammed shut since then.

I met my husband while living overseas and can verify that legal immigration takes tedious years, tests, and Immigration visits. And that's for an "automatic" legal approval due to marriage.

In other words, I think the process is generally working as it should.

[villagerjack]

I did not know that the numbers for immigration were so high. I did not realize the number of Native Americans was so low. I am a descendant of immigrants, yet I am allowed to be here. My nephew married a woman who came here legally from somewhere down in Mexico or Central America. She and her sisters and brothers all have jobs here in the states and raise their children well. She has just discovered that her green card is no longer valid. What to do? Should she take her 7 yo son, who is an American citizen back to Mexico, leaving her husband and family. In speaking with a lawyer she was told Mexico would not let her come back.
When we talk to her she tells us of the horrible conditions the people live through and are trying to get out of. People do not walk as far as some have walked unless there is something horrible from which they are escaping. I consider myself extremely lucky to live in a land which affords us such a wonderful life. We took it away from the Indians and got away from it.
I do not know what the answer is but it seems that we as such a privileged land needs to help alleviate some of the horrible conditions that force people to emigrate from their countries. I don't believe that God, who died for all of our souls, accepts that we just look the other way. :pray::pray::pray:

There are a couple of billion people living under those conditions....how many do you think we can accept?

[graciegirl]

Our country and values were built on immigrants coming to America and making a life here!
If someone is not happy with having people coming into the country they are always free to leave.

In Australia you cannot enter the country to live without first having a job. That was required of my German grandparents too. I am NOT happy about just anyone entering the country.

[Northwoods]

I think immigration is healthy and makes us a better country. We should be a compassionate country helping those who are in need. But it has to be legal immigration. Perhaps we have to come up with a more efficient way to process immigrants and provide a path to citizenship. But opening our borders and using a "catch and release" strategy isn't IMO the right approach.

[CFrance]

The thread is about illegal immigration and it's impact on where the take up residence.
Actually, your initial post didn't mention illegal immigration. It only mentioned immigration.

[JimJohnson]

I’m on the fence on imitation. I see logical points made in this thread to clamp down, but then I think of GOD and my holy Bible that says the opposite. Do I close my eyes to the word of God? Another fact, that 1.2 million immigrants sounds like a large number, but in reality, that is less than one third of one percent of our population, I.e. a drop in the bucket. 2.7 million Americans die annually. As I type this I realize, YES, America has serious problems, but illegal immigration is way down on the list.
BOTTOM LINE: I will go with the word of GOD and not the fear tactics of the politicians and media. Are we Christians or not?

[JimJohnson]

I found the link below helpful in my search for truth about the immigration issue.

9 Things the Bible Says You Should Do for Refugees | CBN News (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/february/9-things-the-bible-says-you-should-do-for-refugees)

[villagerjack]

I’m on the fence on imitation. I see logical points made in this thread to clamp down, but then I think of GOD and my holy Bible that says the opposite. Do I close my eyes to the word of God? Another fact, that 1.2 million immigrants sounds like a large number, but in reality, that is less than one third of one percent of our population, I.e. a drop in the bucket. 2.7 million Americans die annually. As I type this I realize, YES, America has serious problems, but illegal immigration is way down on the list.
BOTTOM LINE: I will go with the word of GOD and not the fear tactics of the politicians and media. Are we Christians or not?


Your numbers are inaccurate. There are at least 30 million illegals in our Country. Did God Place a number on how many to let in? A couple of billion want to come.

[villagerjack]

I found the link below helpful in my search for truth about the immigration issue.

9 Things the Bible Says You Should Do for Refugees | CBN News (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/february/9-things-the-bible-says-you-should-do-for-refugees)


We would not have a Country if we literally followed “ Thou shall not kill “.

[JimJohnson]

Your numbers are inaccurate. There are at least 30 million illegals in our Country. Did God Place a number on how many to let in? A couple of billion want to come.

I took the 1.2 number from the OP. The total accumulated over the past 20 years is closer to 10 million, not 30 million. I would simply ask that we all know the facts before condemning people asking for help.

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Total Lowest in a Decade | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/)

[Fredster]

America has a stellar record when it comes to accepting immigrants and refugees compared to almost any other country in the world!
The matter of millions entering illegally is a problem that needs some real attention.
I believe that we in the US are a very generous nation, but we realistically can’t help everyone!

Immigration to the United States vs. Other Countries | 2018 Immigration Stats (https://immigrationlawyerslosangeles.com/immigration-law/immigration-united-states-vs-countries/)

[villagerjack]

I took the 1.2 number from the OP. The total accumulated over the past 20 years is closer to 10 million, not 30 million. I would simply ask that we all know the facts before condemning people asking for help.

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Total Lowest in a Decade | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/)

That’s the Problem, taking unverified info and using it to make your case and when you are called out, you mere,y state that you “took it from the OP”. Nice.

[ColdNoMore]

You are not referring to the hundreds of thousands of white menwho fought, were wounded and died in all the wars that saved this Country from destruction....are you ?

No, I am certainly not forgetting those brave men & women who fought and won against the traitor's (who supported bringing "immigrants" to this country against their will as property)...to keep this great nation together. :thumbup:

[JimJohnson]

:pray:That’s the Problem, taking unverified info and using it to make your case and when you are called out, you mere,y state that you “took it from the OP”. Nice.

Ooohhhhmmmm!

[ColdNoMore]

That’s the Problem, taking unverified info and using it to make your case and when you are called out, you mere,y state that you “took it from the OP”. Nice.There is definitely a problem.

I'm curious as to your proof that some info is "unverified," while making the claim that your numbers...are accurate.

Please clarify.

:popcorn:

[Topspinmo]

You really should re-visit your history lessons. This country was founded on hostile invasion of uninvited foreigners. They were not "legal immigrants." There was no system of law in place to determine immigration status. But they did come, by the hundreds, bringing disease and death with them.

There are many reasons to want to step up on existing immigration law and border patrol. "This country was founded on legal immigration" is not one of them.

Neither was the spainish where the slaughtered south, Central America

[Topspinmo]

Yep...exactly. :oops:

All too many conveniently forget, or purposely ignore, that this country was actually founded/built by "immigrants" who didn't have to do anything more than show up...and use superior force to subjugate those who had been here for thousands of years.

While we definitely have to have some sensible immigration laws, I truly believe that the biggest fear of a lot of folks is that the unstated adage of "white + might = right"...might be slipping away. :ohdear:


Just amazing :popcorn:

[Topspinmo]

I took the 1.2 number from the OP. The total accumulated over the past 20 years is closer to 10 million, not 30 million. I would simply ask that we all know the facts before condemning people asking for help.

U.S. Unauthorized Immigration Total Lowest in a Decade | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/)

The ONLY known Number

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I’m on the fence on imitation. I see logical points made in this thread to clamp down, but then I think of GOD and my holy Bible that says the opposite. Do I close my eyes to the word of God? Another fact, that 1.2 million immigrants sounds like a large number, but in reality, that is less than one third of one percent of our population, I.e. a drop in the bucket. 2.7 million Americans die annually. As I type this I realize, YES, America has serious problems, but illegal immigration is way down on the list.
BOTTOM LINE: I will go with the word of GOD and not the fear tactics of the politicians and media. Are we Christians or not?

I'm not Christian, and I agree with you. You don't have to be Christian to be compassionate and wish for peaceful co-existence with your fellow human.

[Taltarzac725]

"Saint Judy" tells story of immigration case that changed asylum law - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82BS7y_Odvo)

Movie about asylum playing in the Villages right now.

Saint Judy (2019) - Rotten Tomatoes (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/saint_judy)

[Bay Kid]

Illegals are a real problem. They will do all they can to get here for the freebees that hard working Americans have to provide. Legal immigration is not the problem. Changing the name of illegals to undocumented does not make it right. It is against the law for a reason.

[Taltarzac725]

Yearbook of Immigration Statistics | Homeland Security (https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook)

This is useful information.

Illegal Immigration Statistics - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/)

[villagerjack]

The ONLY known Number

WRONG...
Yale Study 2018 says22 Million up to 29 million. This dies not includetbeir offspring who are citizens born here but whose parents are illegal..


Yale Study Finds Twice as Many Undocumented Immigrants as Previous Estimates | Yale Insights (https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/yale-study-finds-twice-as-many-undocumented-immigrants-as-previous-estimates)

[villagerjack]

I'm not Christian, and I agree with you. You don't have to be Christian to be compassionate and wish for peaceful co-existence with your fellow human.

Peaceful?

DOJ: 26% of Federal Prisoners Are Aliens | Center for Immigration Studies (https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens)

[villagerjack]

"Saint Judy" tells story of immigration case that changed asylum law - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82BS7y_Odvo)

Movie about asylum playing in the Villages right now.

Saint Judy (2019) - Rotten Tomatoes (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/saint_judy)

Sounds like a tearjerker but asylum laws are destroying our Great Country..

These are some of the Asylum seekers , just in the State of Texas.


Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges
79,049 assault charges
18,685 burglary charges
79,900 drug charges
815 kidnapping charges
44,882 theft charges
50,777 obstructing police charges
4,292 robbery charges
7,156 sexual assault charges
9,938 weapons charges.

[jebartle]

Sounds like a tearjerker but asylum laws are destroying our Great Country..

These are some of the Asylum seekers , just in the State of Texas.


Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges
79,049 assault charges
18,685 burglary charges
79,900 drug charges
815 kidnapping charges
44,882 theft charges
50,777 obstructing police charges
4,292 robbery charges
7,156 sexual assault charges
9,938 weapons charges.

Statistics can be construed to say what ever your bias!

[Bogie Shooter]

1 billion dollars on the way from the Pentagon.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Sounds like a tearjerker but asylum laws are destroying our Great Country..

These are some of the Asylum seekers , just in the State of Texas.


Over 250,000 criminal aliens were booked in Texas local jails between June 2011 and April 2018. These individuals were charged with more than 663,000 offenses, including:

1,351 homicide charges
79,049 assault charges
18,685 burglary charges
79,900 drug charges
815 kidnapping charges
44,882 theft charges
50,777 obstructing police charges
4,292 robbery charges
7,156 sexual assault charges
9,938 weapons charges.

How many were found guilty?

[retiredguy123]

I understand that having a wall does nothing to stop asylum applicants. The wall is built on U.S. property. So, anyone who shows up on either side of the wall is on U.S. property, and can ask for asylum. Then, they are processed and released into our country. At this point, they are not illegal aliens, but legal residents awaiting a court hearing on their asylum application. So, what will the wall accomplish with respect to these asylum seekers?

[Trayderjoe]

Take out the history, as people, places, and conditions change over time, it is called evolution. Just because we did something one way in the past does not immediately validate the process as being the only/right way to do it now. We CHANGE. Remove the statistics from the discussion since any statistic appears to be challenged, even if the numbers are provided by "the boots on the ground". Set aside race as an argument as the the introduction of rascism immediately shuts down the conversation. Ignore the reports from the news media since there is a definite bias (interestingly there is another thread that talks about media bias).

So starting from the bare bones, what benefits does uncontrolled immigration offer that controlled immigration does not? I can't think of any myself. Can anyone else identify such benefits?

Should there not be a demonstrable list of such benefits, I would therefore propose that controlled immigration already provides the benefits that uncontrolled immigration supporters espouse.

[retiredguy123]

The benefits? In a nutshell, cheap labor and votes.

[thetruth]

You really should re-visit your history lessons. This country was founded on hostile invasion of uninvited foreigners. They were not "legal immigrants." There was no system of law in place to determine immigration status. But they did come, by the hundreds, bringing disease and death with them.

There are many reasons to want to step up on existing immigration law and border patrol. "This country was founded on legal immigration" is not one of them.

Any of these issues can be argued, with no solution, forever.

The fact that no one can argue with is that since 1950, the population of the United States has roughly doubled.

We along with discussing ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I'm certain all have opinions on global warming, pollution, GMOs, whales etc etc etc etc.

Truly simple fact, it is all due to population. It is interesting that neither party is willing to discuss this issue. Even China a dictatorship has given up.

FAIR? An often used word. It is so broad that what is fair can also be argued forever with no positive result.

Need for labor. My view we should invest in training citizens for jobs.

NOTHING, IN THE REAL WORLD, WILL EVER BE PERFECT.

[Fredster]

The benefits? In a nutshell, cheap labor and votes.

And those two reasons are why our elected representatives (both parties)
have failed for decades, to address the problem of illegal immigration!

[jebartle]

The benefits? In a nutshell, cheap labor and votes.

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

[manaboutown]

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

:agree:

Anybody remember this?

Operation Wetback | United States immigration law-enforcement campaign | Britannica.com (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Operation-Wetback)

[billethkid]

Another benefit of living in the bubble called The Villages is there is little or no impact of the immigration, legal, illegal or what ever as they do not live here.
Yes some cut our grass and weed our yards and build our houses, etc.

The actual absorbing the "immigrants" has little or no impact on our life style. And like most all, not in my back yard situations, our opinions and tolerances are affected accordingly.

Ask the same questions in the border frontier towns and cities.

[ColdNoMore]

Border Residents Remain Skeptical About The Need For An Expanded Wall : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683748179/border-residents-remain-skeptical-about-the-need-for-an-expanded-wall)

Today, apprehensions are at a 20-year low, the State Department reports there is no credible evidence of terrorists moving across the Southern border, and the more harmful narcotics, like methamphetamines, are smuggled mostly in vehicles through the official ports of entry.

For Manjarrez, expecting a fully sealed border is as unrealistic as expecting a city to eliminate all crime. Building a wall, he said, is not a blanket solution.

"There has to be a right mix, and it's really three things," he said. "It's a mix of that infrastructure, personnel and technology."


One also has to wonder, how the Pentagon/Defense Department just happened to have $1BILLION laying around, with nothing to spend it on...so it can be redirected toward a wall? :oops:



Pentagon authorizes $1 bn for Trump'''s border wall (https://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-authorizes-1-bn-trumps-border-wall-064228470.html)

The White House has signaled it will seek to repurpose some $6 billion from military funds, without specifying which Pentagon programs would be slashed.

[Bogie Shooter]

Border Residents Remain Skeptical About The Need For An Expanded Wall : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683748179/border-residents-remain-skeptical-about-the-need-for-an-expanded-wall)




One also has to wonder, how the Pentagon/Defense Department just happened to have $1BILLION laying around, with nothing to spend it on...so it can be redirected toward a wall? :oops:



Pentagon authorizes $1 bn for Trump'''s border wall (https://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-authorizes-1-bn-trumps-border-wall-064228470.html)
From the base school budgets, personnel benefits and training exercises halted...…………………….

[Trayderjoe]

The benefits? In a nutshell, cheap labor and votes.

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

Leaving votes/voting aside as that treads into prohibited waters and is in of itself a debatable topic, cheap labor and doing jobs no one else wants to do is proposed as a benefit to having uncontrolled immigrants over what controlled immigrants offer.

The presumption therefore is that no one, or not enough people, who enter as a controlled immigrant is willing to work cheaply or do jobs no one else wants to do. I am not sure that conclusion would be supportable, however, let us presume that it is. Changing the focus of controlled immigration to finding cheap manual labor should address that issue. It would seem to be an effective, easy change to make. So, what other benefits do uncontrolled immigration provide that controlled immigration does not?

[Fredster]

And jobs filled that no one else wants, sad but true!

My experience in the front office of an an upper midwest manufacturing plant was quite different.
Our shop was pretty much all Hispanic, and I venture many were illegal, since Ice came by several times picking up people.
I would see many non-Hispaic people come in looking for work, but I knew they didn’t have a chance in getting hired,
because the whole shop spoke Hispanic accept for the shop manager who was bi-lingual.
I firmly believe the shop was staffed that way to cut labor costs, and increase profitability.
I wonder if people realize illegal alien workers hold down wages of other workers, and even legal immigrant workers!
Plus if there are any OSHA violations they are not in a good position to make complaints!

[Fredster]

You need to read it again. :oops:

There are some people (not all) that don’t believe we need to control illegal entry into our country!
I believe we need to know (check out) who enters
our country, in a controlled process, so we can effectively assimilate them!

[retiredguy123]

Leaving votes/voting aside as that treads into prohibited waters and is in of itself a debatable topic, cheap labor and doing jobs no one else wants to do is proposed as a benefit to having uncontrolled immigrants over what controlled immigrants offer.

The presumption therefore is that no one, or not enough people, who enter as a controlled immigrant is willing to work cheaply or do jobs no one else wants to do. I am not sure that conclusion would be supportable, however, let us presume that it is. Changing the focus of controlled immigration to finding cheap manual labor should address that issue. It would seem to be an effective, easy change to make. So, what other benefits do uncontrolled immigration provide that controlled immigration does not?
Kinda hard to put voting aside, but... Why would a citizen want to work 40 hours per week for minimum wage when they can make more money on welfare? And, why would an employer want to pay minimum wage and comply with all of the labor laws, including payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, workers comp, sick leave, safety rules, and other mandated benefits, when they can hire someone and pay them in cash? There are a lot of workers who won't even work unless you pay them in cash. And, some people actually want to pass a $15 minimum wage which, if enforced, would put thousands of small businesses out of business. There are some small business owners who don't even make $15 per hour.

[ColdNoMore]

I'll just keep saying it, the problem with undocumented workers taking jobs away from documented workers/citizens...can be substantially reduced pretty easily.

Simply start throwing the book...at those people who hire them. :boom:

Put enough business owners and high-level exec's in jail, then sit back and see how darned fast a better effort is made...in who is employed.

Of course, there will be the inevitable whining and screeching from seeing prices significantly rise on a plethora of products and services...but that's fine with me too. :thumbup:

The nasty little truth is, that we as a country are also to blame because of the pressure we put on companies...to keep their prices low.

Then the 'law of unintended consequences'...starts to kick in.

When the prices for domestically produced products becomes too high, then corporations who are driven by shareholders who want their returns maximized and right now, will simply go wherever they need to reduce their overhead costs...with labor usually being at the top. :shrug:

[ColdNoMore]

From the base school budgets, personnel benefits and training exercises halted...…………………….

Either there was an enormous amount of 'pork' in these budget items and an accounting forensic analysis needs to immediately be done on defense budgets....ORRR.

I'll take the ORRR. :ohdear:

[Shimpy]

I am Native American...how do you think we felt when your ancestors came to America...bringing diseases and death to our people?

And who did your people take this land from? Native Americans is usually thought of Indians, but they were not here first were they?

[retiredguy123]

Either there was an enormous amount of 'pork' in these budget items and an accounting forensic analysis needs to immediately be done on defense budgets....ORRR.

I'll take the ORRR. :ohdear:
Pork? Most people who didn't work for the Federal Government have no idea how much waste is in every Federal agency budget.

[Trayderjoe]

I'll just keep saying it, the problem with undocumented workers taking jobs away from documented workers/citizens...can be substantially reduced pretty easily.

Simply start throwing the book...at those people who hire them. :boom:

Put enough business owners and high-level exec's in jail, then sit back and see how darned fast a better effort is made...in who is employed.

Of course, there will be the inevitable whining and screeching from seeing prices significantly rise on a plethora of products and services...but that's fine with me too. :thumbup:

The nasty little truth is, that we as a country are also to blame because of the pressure we put on companies...to keep their prices low.

Then the 'law of unintended consequences'...starts to kick in.

When the prices for domestically produced products becomes too high, then corporations who are driven by shareholders who want their returns maximized and right now, will simply go wherever they need to reduce their overhead costs...with labor usually being at the top. :shrug:

Kinda hard to put voting aside, but... Why would a citizen want to work 40 hours per week for minimum wage when they can make more money on welfare? And, why would an employer want to pay minimum wage and comply with all of the labor laws, including payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, workers comp, sick leave, safety rules, and other mandated benefits, when they can hire someone and pay them in cash? There are a lot of workers who won't even work unless you pay them in cash. And, some people actually want to pass a $15 minimum wage which, if enforced, would put thousands of small businesses out of business. There are some small business owners who don't even make $15 per hour.

Yes, there are causes for and consequences (intended or not) of uncontrolled immigration. Where discussion surrounds low pay for physical labor, there is no proof offered that controlled immigration does not fill those roles. I have attempted to strip away the rhetoric so that we can look at, if there is, any potential benefits for uncontrolled versus controlled immigration at the most basic level. Should there be no fundamental benefit of uncontrolled over controlled immigration, then why the support for uncontrolled immigration? I have yet to see such an example or set of examples to support the position.

I would therefore submit that there is no benefit to uncontrolled immigration that would outweigh the need to change the current immigration laws, and restrict access to those who are following the path of controlled immigration.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

[villagerjack]

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.


The Border Patrol should be the experts consulted and they want the wall. So it will get built. That is a given and should be the starting point. They are also using technology across the entire border. We need to eliminate the Asylum “Catch and Release” Laws and do away with Birthright citizenship and base our immigration system on what type of people we need to keep this country great. Not on looking around the world for refugees from corrupt countries.

[Taltarzac725]

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

Smart government is kind of difficult given the need of bureaucrats to pigeon- hole things with labels that can fit into boxes easily. And people to look for simple solutions that can appease frightened members of crowds with snake oil salesman type solutions. They make a good bumper sticker but that is about all.

And it is a lot harder to think on terms of people as individuals.

[Trayderjoe]

Would anybody have guessed over 23,000 PER WEEK!!!!

Sustained at that rate = 1.2 million per year.

See the following update for additional perspective of the issues/problems:

Exclusive: DHS data shows growing surge of migrants at the border - Axios (https://www.axios.com/immigation-surge-migrant-families-southern-border-dhs-ce83285d-5275-45f5-bbaf-df707ad545d2.html)

We talk about and get to hear a lot about things like global warming and how it is going to affect the future of Americans cities.
There needs to be more discussion about the immigration issue and how, uncontrolled, it will change the future of many American cities.

I am not sure enough American citizens are aware the potential these numbers have on almost every aspect of American way of life.

Hopefully this thread survives being shut down.....the subject needs discussion. It matters not the religion, politics or race.....the impact will affect all.

It certainly can be allowed/tolerated to continue uncontrolled.....as long as people know the results and effects.

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

Based upon the initial post, I don't see that the OP opposed immigration, but opened this tread to discuss the ramifications of the current system allowing uncontrolled immigration. I am curious as to what other type of immigration there is besides controlled and uncontrolled that was alluded to above?

There will always be a way to "game the system" and I don't think anyone will guarantee an absolute, but that should not preclude a wall as part of an integrated system to manage uncontrolled immigration. The wall does not have to be from sea to shining sea, but can help funnel uncontrolled immigrants to places where more effective intervention can occur. It can also act as a delaying action to slow down the number of people who make it across until the authorities can get to the scene. The integration of technology with the wall can make this happen.

A big FIRST step would be to fix the flawed immigration laws that BOTH sides have let the people of the United States down. Should one choose to ignore the data because of it's origin, perhaps a good microcosm of the downstream effects of uncontrolled immigration would be the lawsuit that the City San Diego was filing or discussing against Washington due to the negative impact on the city's resources that is happening as a result of the release of families into the community as required by current law.

[villagerjack]

The premise behind Selfishness as a Virtue is that unless you take care of yourself first it is impossible to help others. Unfortunately no country around the world has the resources necessary to take care of the billions of folks from other Countries who want to come here for economic or other reasons.

[villagerjack]

Actually I doubt if that is correct. And experts are about as good as whoever is paying them for their expertise.

And the US right now is one of the most corrupt countries on earth. Top 10 Ways the United States Is the Most Corrupt Country in the World (https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/01/31/top-10-ways-united-states-most-corrupt-country-world)

Actually it is correct. The fact that you doubt it means nothing.

[Taltarzac725]

Actually it is correct. The fact that you doubt it means nothing.

Border Patrol Professionals Weigh In On What's Needed: Wall Or Fence : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683861960/border-patrol-professionals-weigh-in-on-what-s-needede-wall-or-fence)

Depends on which border patrol "expert" you ask.

BURNETT: So I talked to line agents in South Texas, but they'll say there's too much emphasis on the wall these days, and it's just as important to have cameras and sensors and lights and manpower in the mix.

[billethkid]

Based upon the initial post, I don't see that the OP opposed immigration, but opened this tread to discuss the ramifications of the current system allowing uncontrolled immigration. I am curious as to what other type of immigration there is besides controlled and uncontrolled that was alluded to above?

There will always be a way to "game the system" and I don't think anyone will guarantee an absolute, but that should not preclude a wall as part of an integrated system to manage uncontrolled immigration. The wall does not have to be from sea to shining sea, but can help funnel uncontrolled immigrants to places where more effective intervention can occur. It can also act as a delaying action to slow down the number of people who make it across until the authorities can get to the scene. The integration of technology with the wall can make this happen.

A big FIRST step would be to fix the flawed immigration laws that BOTH sides have let the people of the United States down. Should one choose to ignore the data because of it's origin, perhaps a good microcosm of the downstream effects of uncontrolled immigration would be the lawsuit that the City San Diego was filing or discussing against Washington due to the negative impact on the city's resources that is happening as a result of the release of families into the community as required by current law.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[villagerjack]

Border Patrol Professionals Weigh In On What's Needed: Wall Or Fence : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683861960/border-patrol-professionals-weigh-in-on-what-s-needede-wall-or-fence)

Depends on which border patrol "expert" you ask.

The credibility of CNN “reporters” has already been established recently but if you read what Burnett said and you quoted you may want to edit or delete it because she she talks about ‘emphasis” or her “opinion” of what the Agents said not the NEED. To construct a wall.

[billethkid]

But there is benefit from BETTER controlled immigration. It's not an all or nothing option. The immigration system we have is broken. It's been broken, and as long as funds are misspent, unspent, underspent, or otherwise not spent on more efficient immigration processes, it will continue to be broken. No wall will fix immigration. It won't even put a dent into it. People climb over, tunnel under, and drive right through the border gates hidden away in trucks because we choose not to spend it on the available technology needed to keep up with the smuggling.

The perspective of the OP is flawed, because it's based on untrue data. This current batch of perspective regarding "uncontrolled" vs. "controlled" immigration is flawed, because it assumes those are the only two possible options.

You forgot to preface your opinion with IMHO...the thread was/is about the impacts of the illegal immigration.
:popcorn:

[Taltarzac725]

The credibility of CNN “reporters” has already been established recently but if you read what Burnett said and you quoted you may want to edit or delete it because she she talks about ‘emphasis” or her “opinion” of what the Agents said not the NEED. To construct a wall.

That is hilarious. Check your facts. John Burnett : NPR (https://www.npr.org/people/1936301/john-burnett)

As NPR's Southwest correspondent based in Austin, Texas, John Burnett covers immigration, border affairs, Texas news and other national assignments. In 2018, he won an Edward R. Murrow Award from the Radio-Television News Directors Association for continuing coverage of the immigration beat, and he was invited to participate in a workshop on Refugees, Immigration and Border Security in Western Europe, sponsored by the RIAS Berlin Commission.

[manaboutown]

Back in the 1950s when I was growing up in NM chile and other types of farmers along the Rio Grande valley in Southern NM used to hire illegal aliens to cultivate and harvest their crops. The illegals were hard workers and cheap. The Mexican border was of course nearby, right across the Rio Grande, and the wetbacks or wets as locals called back them did literally swim and wade cross it to work. They took their wages back home to support their families. They did not commit much crime. It was a peaceful situation and beneficial to all parties.

Today the situation is vastly different. Drug cartels, human trafficking, terrorists, M13 and other gangs as well as petty criminals who cross the border to steal in one way or another then flee back to Mexico constitute a huge proportion of the flow.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Back in the 1950s when I was growing up in NM chile and other types of farmers along the Rio Grande valley in Southern NM used to hire illegal aliens to cultivate and harvest their crops. The illegals were hard workers and cheap. The Mexican border was of course nearby, right across the Rio Grande, and the wetbacks or wets as locals called back them did literally swim and wade cross it to work. They took their wages back home to support their families. They did not commit much crime. It was a peaceful situation and beneficial to all parties.

Today the situation is vastly different. Drug cartels, human trafficking, terrorists, M13 and other gangs as well as petty criminals who cross the border to steal in one way or another then flee back to Mexico constitute a huge proportion of the flow.

...and most of that is done AT the border gates, and via airplanes. Drug cartels aren't sending mules to spend countless weeks enduring near starvation, severe dehydration, on foot with inadequate supplies and even decent shoes, to cross the rivers and tramp through wilderness. That just flat out isn't happening. The drugs are coming in at the border gates. And they're coming in at the border gates because the US has insufficient technology and staff to handle the influx. The government is now pulling even more resources away from the border gates, in order to build the wall. Instead of, y'know, adding more staff, getting more technology, and maybe even adding a few more gates so that more people can get stopped, HUMANELY, vetted HUMANELY, and their status as refugees and asylum-seekers determined HUMANELY.

The vast majority of people crossing illegally into this country away from the actual border gates and checkpoints, are refugees and asylum-seekers and others wanting risk their lives for a shot at improving those lives - if they survive the trip. Imagine how miserable your life must be, to risk it for a shot at improvement, knowing that when you finally make it to the other side, someone could catch you, pull your children away from you and send you to a detention camp, and then put your kids into other detention camps that are mismanaged, and you might never see them again. They know this is a risk they take, and they're willing to take it anyway. Imagine how horrific your family's life must be, in the place you live, that you would risk that to come to another country. Those are the *majority* of people trying to come here illegally.

The *majority* of the people whose lives aren't that horrific, are travelling right through the gates.

[billethkid]

What one person views as political another does not.

I am the OP and the thread was created with no political thought what so ever.

Differences of opinions does not equal political. Disagreement does not equal political.

Frank and open discussion is needed on serious subjects that have potential to affect our lives.

[JimJohnson]

What one person views as political another does not.

I am the OP and the thread was created with no political thought what so ever.

Differences of opinions does not equal political. Disagreement does not equal political.

Frank and open discussion is needed on serious subjects that have potential to affect our lives.

I completely agree that this is not a political discussion. It is gods word versus the rule of law.

Gods word says let them all in with open arms and assistance both with money and shelter.

The laws of this country dictates that if are not here under one form of legality or another, deport them now.

That is why I’m on the fence. I want to be kind, but not at the expense of being homeless myself.

I would love to see a solution to this issue.

[sallybowron]

I completely agree that this is not a political discussion. It is gods word versus the rule of law.

Gods word says let them all in with open arms and assistance both with money and shelter.

The laws of this country dictates that if are not here under one form of legality or another, deport them now.

That is why I’m on the fence. I want to be kind, but not at the expense of being homeless myself.

I would love to see a solution to this issue.

So would I, we have way more than most countries but I don't want to shrink down to homeless either.
:ohdear:

[manaboutown]

This is typical of the activity illegals are pursuing these days, and the judges keep releasing them "on their own recognizance" rather than locking them up. ‘Arsenal’ of weapons, heroin and meth seized in ABQ >> Albuquerque Journal (https://www.abqjournal.com/1295678/arsenal-of-weapons-heroin-and-meth-seized-in-abq.html?fbclid=IwAR3yqb0-jmFOri57ov0BKDmVsv-N5u7t0XxixTJcR_S75fl_m9tfCVIWZjk)

[rjm1cc]

Our country and values were built on immigrants coming to America and making a life here!
If someone is not happy with having people coming into the country they are always free to leave.

No they should work to have the laws allow what they want.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

This is typical of the activity illegals are pursuing these days, and the judges keep releasing them "on their own recognizance" rather than locking them up. ‘Arsenal’ of weapons, heroin and meth seized in ABQ >> Albuquerque Journal (https://www.abqjournal.com/1295678/arsenal-of-weapons-heroin-and-meth-seized-in-abq.html?fbclid=IwAR3yqb0-jmFOri57ov0BKDmVsv-N5u7t0XxixTJcR_S75fl_m9tfCVIWZjk)

No, that is not "typical" of activities that illegal immigrants are pursuing "these days." Again - that's politics and propaganda speaking, not fact.

Typical immigrants without legal status or documentation are mostly under the radar, working legitimate jobs with expired visas (they arrived legally, they stay illegally). They pay taxes, they do their jobs, they come home, kiss their spouses and kids, have dinner, and do it all again the next day. THAT is the "typical" activity.

What you are describing is the A-typical. The same can be said for legal citizens of the USA. Typical activity for most of us in this country is to work, have families, pay taxes, get an education of some kind or another, and live our lives without much to-do. The A-typical among us commit crimes, some of them horrific.

[Trayderjoe]

No, that is not "typical" of activities that illegal immigrants are pursuing "these days." Again - that's politics and propaganda speaking, not fact.

Typical immigrants without legal status or documentation are mostly under the radar, working legitimate jobs with expired visas (they arrived legally, they stay illegally). They pay taxes, they do their jobs, they come home, kiss their spouses and kids, have dinner, and do it all again the next day. THAT is the "typical" activity.

What you are describing is the A-typical. The same can be said for legal citizens of the USA. Typical activity for most of us in this country is to work, have families, pay taxes, get an education of some kind or another, and live our lives without much to-do. The A-typical among us commit crimes, some of them horrific.


Unfortunately this, IMHO, is muddying the waters. The predominant issue at hand is the number of uncontrolled immigrants currently attempting to enter the country. This is not to say that there isn't a concern by some regarding all immigrants who are not here legally.

I am still waiting to hear what other types of immigration there are besides controlled and uncontrolled that was previously alluded.

Unfortunately moving forward to solve the issue may be a hope and never a reality. Statistics are challenged when they don't meet an agenda, people are grouped based upon their position about people who come here illegally. Policies and practices regarding uncontrolled immigration that were practiced on BOTH sides of the aisle are convienently ignored by one side as it doesn't fit an agenda. HELLO, all citizens of the US should be upset and working toward a common goal. How will this ever happen when people, even on this discussion board, insist on their agenda and not a common beneficial endpoint?

[manaboutown]

No, that is not "typical" of activities that illegal immigrants are pursuing "these days." Again - that's politics and propaganda speaking, not fact.

Typical immigrants without legal status or documentation are mostly under the radar, working legitimate jobs with expired visas (they arrived legally, they stay illegally). They pay taxes, they do their jobs, they come home, kiss their spouses and kids, have dinner, and do it all again the next day. THAT is the "typical" activity.

What you are describing is the A-typical. The same can be said for legal citizens of the USA. Typical activity for most of us in this country is to work, have families, pay taxes, get an education of some kind or another, and live our lives without much to-do. The A-typical among us commit crimes, some of them horrific.

Well, the reality is the folks, such as the ranchers in Hidalgo County in the boot heel of New Mexico, who live and work near the Mexican border (not in some distant unaffected ivory tower) are experiencing first hand what is happening. They are regularly victimized by illegals committing crimes against their person and their property.

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/new-mexico-ranchers-frustrated-with-situation-along-us-mexico-border/5220568/

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Unfortunately this, IMHO, is muddying the waters. The predominant issue at hand is the number of uncontrolled immigrants currently attempting to enter the country. This is not to say that there isn't a concern by some regarding all immigrants who are not here legally.

I am still waiting to hear what other types of immigration there are besides controlled and uncontrolled that was previously alluded.

Unfortunately moving forward to solve the issue may be a hope and never a reality. Statistics are challenged when they don't meet an agenda, people are grouped based upon their position about people who come here illegally. Policies and practices regarding uncontrolled immigration that were practiced on BOTH sides of the aisle are convienently ignored by one side as it doesn't fit an agenda. HELLO, all citizens of the US should be upset and working toward a common goal. How will this ever happen when people, even on this discussion board, insist on their agenda and not a common beneficial endpoint?

Stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about "controlled vs. uncontrolled" immigration. It's about "badly controlled vs. better controlled" immigration. Immigration is controlled in this country. But OBVIOUSLY the system isn't working, or we wouldn't have the issues we see today. The current incarnation of "controlled immigration" is BROKEN. It needs to be fixed. That doesn't mean removing controls. It means getting rid of what doesn't work, and replacing it with what does work. Or adding to something that is inadequate, but would be of superior and efficient quality if something was added to it. Make what we have better. More for its own sake is not equal to better.

More wall doesn't equal superior control. Kicking them ALL out doesn't equal superior control. Forbidding them from ALL entering doesn't equal superior control. Taking what one small faction of people think, based on something they know nothing about and have no personal experience of, and implementing laws based on that little tidbit of non-information and faulty data, does not equal superior control.

What DOES equal superior control, is implementing modern technological advances to border control facilities. It is adding more staff to the border patrol. It is adding more gates to the border patrol. It is repairing any gates, fencing, walls, or other barriers, that are in need of repair. It is providing more efficient and humane methodology to the asylum and refugee programs already in place. It is adding multitudes of trained immigrations professionals, who can help get some of these folks, who have been here 20 years and have been TRYING to legally gain citizenship even before their visas expired.

There are hundreds of thousands of immigrants who are "in process" in this country, who have been "in process" for over a decade. There is no excuse for that. They should have either been moved along the path to citizenship, or returned to their countries of origin by now.

End the logjam.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Well, the reality is the folks, such as the ranchers in Hidalgo County in the boot heel of New Mexico, who live and work near the Mexican border (not in some distant unaffected ivory tower) are experiencing first hand what is happening. They are regularly victimized by illegals committing crimes against their person and their property.

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/new-mexico-ranchers-frustrated-with-situation-along-us-mexico-border/5220568/

And again, this is not TYPICAL. Typical would imply that this is how the majority behave. Of the millions of undocumented immigrants - whether asylum seekers, refugees, border-hoppers, people who flew in on visitor passes and just never bothered going home, MOST of them are "otherwise" law-abiding. There is a very small minority who are violent criminals.

Just as there is a very small minority of American citizens who are violent criminals.

If crime is the "typical" complaint, then perhaps begin with ridding the USA of Americans who are criminals. How about deporting the criminals who receive these illegal aliens. The ones who hire them. The ones who smuggle them in. How about we just send THOSE American citizens out of the country. With no one to illegally receive, hire, or smuggle the immigrants, there will be fewer immigrants coming in illegally.

We can go back and forth on this for months, or even forever. But when you discount ALL possible perspectives beside your own, you lose the debate.

[manaboutown]

Oh but it is typical and that is the problem. The people who are actually living where the illegals are coming through know that as they are experiencing crime, drug running, murders, rapes, vehicle theft, vandalism, robberies and burglaries committed by illegals.

From the following article:

Consequently, we will probably never be able to determine what the precise crime rate is for illegal aliens. But there is overwhelming evidence that it is much higher than the crime rate for U.S. citizens. Illegal aliens commit a disproportionate share of crimes:

A grossly disproportionate share of federal prisoners – 22 percent – are aliens. Roughly 2/3 of these aliens were illegally in the country when they committed their crimes. So that’s over 14 percent of federal prisoners. Yet illegal aliens represent only 3-6 percent of the population.
75 percent of those on the most wanted criminals lists in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
More than 53 percent of burglaries investigated in the border region states of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are committed by illegal aliens.
The Texas Department of Public Safety has been keeping careful records of aliens booked into Texas jails since June 1, 2011. As of September 30, 2017, more than 232,000 aliens had been jailed, of which over 155,000 (2/3) were illegally in the country.
Looking just at the aliens we are deporting, criminality is pervasive. In FY 2015 (the last year for which we have complete statistics), 59 percent of removed aliens had been convicted of criminal offenses (other than their immigration violations). And many more had been arrested or charged with crimes, but not yet convicted.
ICE knows of nearly 10,000 additional crimes that were committed by illegal aliens who had been in the custody of sanctuary cities and counties, but were released. Every one of those crimes could have been prevented if the sanctuary policy had not been in place.
The bottom line is that illegal aliens present a disproportionate crime problem for this country. Kate Steinle is just one of thousands of Americans who have lost their lives as a result. To deny the connection between illegal immigration and crime is to deny reality. And to suggest that U.S. citizens commit crimes at an equal or greater rate is absurd.



Kobach: Correcting the Record on Illegal Aliens and Crime (https://kriskobach.com/breitbart-columns/breitbart-columns-correcting-the-record-on-illegal-aliens-and-crime/)

[villagerjack]

So he presents the facts and you condemn the source with your attack words. You are correct. Discussion is over. Load the busses up and get rid of all these lawbreakers tomorrow. They are destroying our way of life. And we cannot afford them.

[Trayderjoe]

Stop moving the goalposts. This isn't about "controlled vs. uncontrolled" immigration. It's about "badly controlled vs. better controlled" immigration. Immigration is controlled in this country. But OBVIOUSLY the system isn't working, or we wouldn't have the issues we see today. The current incarnation of "controlled immigration" is BROKEN. It needs to be fixed. That doesn't mean removing controls. It means getting rid of what doesn't work, and replacing it with what does work. Or adding to something that is inadequate, but would be of superior and efficient quality if something was added to it. Make what we have better. More for its own sake is not equal to better.

More wall doesn't equal superior control. Kicking them ALL out doesn't equal superior control. Forbidding them from ALL entering doesn't equal superior control. Taking what one small faction of people think, based on something they know nothing about and have no personal experience of, and implementing laws based on that little tidbit of non-information and faulty data, does not equal superior control.

What DOES equal superior control, is implementing modern technological advances to border control facilities. It is adding more staff to the border patrol. It is adding more gates to the border patrol. It is repairing any gates, fencing, walls, or other barriers, that are in need of repair. It is providing more efficient and humane methodology to the asylum and refugee programs already in place. It is adding multitudes of trained immigrations professionals, who can help get some of these folks, who have been here 20 years and have been TRYING to legally gain citizenship even before their visas expired.

There are hundreds of thousands of immigrants who are "in process" in this country, who have been "in process" for over a decade. There is no excuse for that. They should have either been moved along the path to citizenship, or returned to their countries of origin by now.

End the logjam.

I have yet to move the goalposts, they are still controlled and uncontrolled immigration. Perhaps the posting in response that referred to immigration not being black and white controlled versus uncontrolled, that there are other types of immigration is the goal posts moving?

There is no dispute that the system is broken, and that repairs, personnel, and technology are needed. However, more wall is needed as part of the infrastructure upgrades. The first step, IMHO does need to be a change in our laws. Perhaps if we spent less time and resources on immigrants taking advantage of the holes in our laws, the people who are trying to “do it right” can be addressed in a timely fashion.