Can you separate a man from his music?

[Taltarzac725]

Are the works of a man like Michael Jackson-- accused of abhorrent actions with kids-- still worthwhile on their own? Or should we throw away the music because of those allegations?

How about others accused? Woody Allen? Harvey Weinstein? Kevin Spacey? Dustin Hoffman? Fatty Arbuckle? Roscoe Arbuckle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Arbuckle)

I won't listen to Michael Jackson's music anymore. But I'll still watch Woody Allen's movies. Here's why. (https://theweek.com/articles/827257/wont-listen-michael-jacksons-music-anymore-but-ill-still-watch-woody-allens-movies-heres-why)

Dustin Hoffman - latest news, breaking stories and comment - The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/DustinHoffman)

[photo1902]

I had to laugh at Fatty Arbuckle. First off because I have never heard the name, and it's funny. Secondly because he's been dead for 86 years!

[Taltarzac725]

I had to laugh at Fatty Arbuckle. First off because I have never heard the name, and it's funny. Secondly because he's been dead for 86 years!

He lost everything for quite some time because of what look like they were false accusations of rape and murder. Restoring Fatty Arbuckle's Tarnished Reputation at MoMa - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/movies/restoring-fatty-arbuckles-tarnished-reputation-at-moma.html)

Lawyers brought him up often when I was on Findlaw back in the 2000s for what can go very wrong with accusations not really based on facts.

WHEN Roscoe (Fatty) Arbuckle checked into the St. Francis Hotel in San Francisco for a Labor Day weekend of rest and recreation in September 1921, he was one of the most celebrated and beloved comedians in America. One week later, he was a pariah. On Sept. 11, Arbuckle was arrested for the rape and murder of Virginia Rappé, a 28-year-old actress who passed out during a party in Arbuckle's suite and died a few days later of peritonitis.

[photo1902]

He lost everything for quite some time because of what look like they were false accusations of rape and murder.

Lawyers brought him up often when I was on Findlaw back in the 2000s for what can go very wrong with accusations not really based on facts.

Interesting case for sure. I just finished reading about it.

[Velvet]

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[Taltarzac725]

A question about can you separate the person from their art. How is one able to enjoy a person’s artistic creation in any form if you think that this person was evil?
Is it not condoning the in-life deranged acts of the artist by ignoring their behavior? For me, I can’t do it.

I am not ignoring their behavior or the accusations of that behavior but am focusing on something that they usually created with hundreds of other people. Each film made often involves hundreds if not thousands of people as do many recorded songs.

It is like throwing many babies out with the bath water.

Michael Jackson - Thriller (Official Music Video) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOnqjkJTMaA) There were probably many people involved with making, distributing and marketing Michael Jackson's Thriller.

[Velvet]

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[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I believe the Christian response to this conundrum is "love the sinner; hate the sin." Not sure I agree with that, but I'm not Christian so it doesn't really matter.

[Velvet]

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[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And then we go to "judge not, lest ye be judged" and "let he without sin cast the first stone" and so on and so forth. I'm not Christian and don't buy any of this horsepucky but I know a lot of people here are. But they also seem to be the people who will cause entire organizations and film crews and actors and media employees to lose their jobs, all because ONE person they don't like, did something they didn't approve of. Just seems very hypocritical to me.

[rustyp]

Seems many people have easily been able to separate works from behavior in the case of Tiger Woods. In Tiger's case it went beyond accusations. But then again many people are still making money riding his coattails.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Seems many people have easily been able to separate works from behavior in the case of Tiger Woods. In Tiger's case it went beyond accusations. But then again many people are still making money riding his coattails.

Yup.

[Nucky]

Question Can you separate a man from his music?



Are the works of a man like Michael Jackson-- accused of abhorrent actions with kids-- still worthwhile on their own? Or should we throw away the music because of those allegations?

It depends! In this case, I've already made my feeling known. Some people deserve a second chance some don't. It depends but not in the case you mention. I don't think there is any daylight on how I should handle or think about this. But I shouldn't tell you how to handle it. Can you imagine if he went to jail instead of passing away? Karma boy, it's a powerful thing!

[Velvet]

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[Taltarzac725]

Seems many people have easily been able to separate works from behavior in the case of Tiger Woods. In Tiger's case it went beyond accusations. But then again many people are still making money riding his coattails.

Woods cheated on his wife with a lot of various women and seemed to have quite an addiction to sex.

Not sure how I see any real evil in that. He was a very rotten husband. There are many of those around.

And he is not the role model for kids that many thought he was.

[Velvet]

...

[Taltarzac725]

Yes, I guess, I don’t really follow Woods but I have heard some things. However, I think there is a difference between hurting an adult who is capable vs hurting young children who are vulnerable. I’m sure Woods had consequences if he did all that.

You wonder why it took so long for the accusers of Michael Jackson to come forward. https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/03/03/jury-acquits-jackson-how-king-pops-child-molestation-trial-was-reported/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4f4afe2e43d3

[rustyp]

Woods cheated on his wife with a lot of various women and seemed to have quite an addiction to sex.

Not sure how I see any real evil in that. He was a very rotten husband. There are many of those around.

And he is not the role model for kids that many thought he was.

Yup not a role model for his children or any children who put him in a hero status mimicking their parents. When is behavior over the line - because it affected a child ? What about the elderly ? What about the handicapped ? The third point is the situations that your proposing are accusations. Tiger's was factual. What about innocent until proven guilty ? My point is if one forgave Tiger and worship his accomplishments why are you throwing out Michael Jackson's music.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Question Can you separate a man from his music?



Are the works of a man like Michael Jackson-- accused of abhorrent actions with kids-- still worthwhile on their own? Or should we throw away the music because of those allegations?

It depends! In this case, I've already made my feeling known. Some people deserve a second chance some don't. It depends but not in the case you mention. I don't think there is any daylight on how I should handle or think about this. But I shouldn't tell you how to handle it. Can you imagine if he went to jail instead of passing away? Karma boy, it's a powerful thing!

Can you also imagine if it turned out the accusers were settling an unfair score, and that he didn't do any of those things he was accused of doing?

[Nucky]

Can you also imagine if it turned out the accusers were settling an unfair score, and that he didn't do any of those things he was accused of doing?

I really like a lot of the things you post Jazuela but do I think any accusers were settling a score? Not A Snowballs Chance in Lady Lake. Sleeping with Minors who he Farmed Raised and paid off. It's Obvious why he Couldn't Sleep. Guilt!

With all the things in the news lately that turn out to be what they didn't look like in the beginning, it does make you stop and think for a minute if the rumors are true. Minutes up, he's guilty. I don't remember any victims saying they were wrong about what went on back in the day. Wish he had of made it to Bubba! He took the Cowards way out!

Jackson's Sister Says She Believes He Is a Molester : Scandal: 'This has been going on since 1981, and it's not just one child,' LaToya Jackson tells reporters in Tel Aviv. She has been estranged from other family members.
JIM NEWTON
TIMES STAFF WRITER
Michael Jackson's sister LaToya hinted Wednesday that she believes her brother is guilty of sexually molesting young boys and of paying off their families to keep them quiet.

"I just think Michael needs help," LaToya Jackson told reporters at a Tel Aviv news conference, according to wire service reports. "This has been going on since 1981, and it's not just one child."

LaToya Jackson told reporters that she could no longer "be a silent collaborator of his crimes against small, innocent children," the Reuters news agency reported. "If I remain silent, then that means that I feel the guilt and humiliation that these children are feeling, and I think it's very wrong."

LaToya Jackson's comments mark the first time that a member of the Jackson family has turned against the entertainer, who has spent months battling allegations that he sexually molested a 13-year-old boy over a period of four months earlier this year. Jackson's parents and other siblings have stood by the entertainer as he has denied wrongdoing and sought treatment for what he says is an addiction to painkillers.

Michael Jackson's attorneys did not immediately respond to calls seeking comment about LaToya Jackson's remarks in Tel Aviv. They have said previously that Jackson slept with children but that he never molested any of them, including the boy who is at the center of the civil and criminal investigations.

Other family members strongly rebutted LaToya Jackson during an interview with a local television reporter at the family's Encino compound Wednesday night.

LaToya Jackson is estranged from her family and has not made joint appearances with them during the months that Michael Jackson has been under international scrutiny. She told reporters that her family has backed Michael Jackson because they are afraid he will cut them off financially.

In her news conference Wednesday, LaToya Jackson said she had decided to speak out against her brother even though she loves him. Her husband and manager, Jack Gordon, alleged at the news conference that Michael Jackson had threatened to kill LaToya to keep her from revealing the child molestation allegations.

"I love Michael very dearly, but I feel even more sorry for these children because they don't have a life anymore," LaToya Jackson said, her voice breaking.

She also said in the news conference that she has seen checks made out to the parents of children who she says were abused by her brother.

"I have seen these checks and I've seen these checks through my mother," LaToya Jackson said. "She showed me these checks that Michael had written to these children, and it's for a great amount and I'm not speaking pennies. The sums are very, very large amounts."

The allegations by the 13-year-old boy were made in August, and police have launched a criminal investigation of Jackson. In addition, the boy has filed a lawsuit that is scheduled to go to trial in March.

The boy's lawyer, Larry R. Feldman, said LaToya Jackson's comments echoed reports that he has received while pressing forward with the civil case against Jackson.

"This is very consistent with other evidence that we have developed through our investigation," Feldman said. He added, however, that the reports have not been confirmed.

From the earliest stages of the case, Feldman has indicated that he plans to question LaToya Jackson. In fact, she was scheduled to be deposed this week, but her deposition is being rescheduled because she is out of the country.

In a previous deposition, one of Jackson's chauffeurs said he had taken the entertainer to the boy's house at least 30 times, leaving him off at night and picking him up the following day. Although Jackson never has denied spending nights with the boy, Feldman later said the chauffeur's comments, made under oath, corroborated his client's story.

LaToya Jackson appeared to allude to the chauffeur's statement in her news conference.

"Now you stop and you think for one second," she told reporters, "and you tell me what 35-year-old man is going to take a little boy and stay with him for 30 days and take another boy and stay with him for five days in a room and never leave the room?"

In an interview with KCBS-TV, family members lashed out at LaToya Jackson, saying she was profiteering, "brainwashed" and in the clutches of a greedy husband.

"The reason why this is said is because (LaToya Jackson and Gordon) know once they say something like this all of the tabloids are going to come back here, they're going to ask her to come on shows. This is the way this guy (Gordon) makes money," her brother Jermaine Jackson said.

Michael Jackson is scheduled to be deposed on Jan. 18, although the date could change if there is a change in the status of the criminal investigation. The entertainer has not been publicly heard from since last month, when he abruptly canceled a world tour after announcing that he had become addicted to painkillers.

His lawyers say Jackson is being treated in Europe for his addiction.

Probably not a lie but they are about as stable as Jello!

[Velvet]

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[anothersteve]

He was a POS!
This was posted in the other thread.
10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations (https://www-vanityfair-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.goo gle.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vanityfair.com%2Fhollyw ood%2F2019%2F03%2F10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations)

An "overdose" was too good for him.
Steve

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Nucky your copy/paste of what I believe is the 1993 LA Times article, which summarizes a third-hand accounting from a UPI newswire interview, was debunked - by LaToya Jackson herself in 2011. She was forced to say those things by her husband Jack Gordon, because he knew that would attract the tabloids for more drama, and thus, more money. She never believed her brother was a child molester. Of course, LaToya Jackson has her own demons, so it's hard to tell which part of this she's telling the truth about, and which part is completely fabricated. In the first, she's supposedly telling all this - why, exactly? The only thing she stood to gain by that was money. Which she got, in spades as a result of that interview. In the second, she was interviewed in advance of her new book (new at the time, in 2011), so she stood to make money no matter what she said.

Basically, I wouldn't count on anything LaToya Jackson said, about anything, to be reliable information.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

He was a POS!
This was posted in the other thread.
10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations (https://www-vanityfair-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.goo gle.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vanityfair.com%2Fhollyw ood%2F2019%2F03%2F10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations)

An "overdose" was too good for him.
Steve

Most of those 10 "facts" have no basis in fact. The article doesn't cite any sources at all. A very quick google search pulled up plenty to dispute MOST of those "facts" and bring up questions about the allegations and those making them. Not credible.

I'm not suggesting that MJ didn't molest anyone. I'm saying there's no way to know one way or another. The couple of people who've made the allegations, have been proven NOT credible. What's worse, one of them (Wade Robson) insisted for years that he was never molested and didn't change his story until filing a lawsuit demanding a sizeable financial reward - a year after MJ was dead. Waiting for your *alleged* criminal to die so he can't testify in his own defense is pretty low.

[tophcfa]

Can I separate a man from his music? First off, i never really considered him a man since he went straight from being a boy to being a freak who essentially transformed himself into something that looked more like an unattractive woman. As far as his music, if you want to call it that, was never anything I wanted to listen to. I did enjoy the Jackson 5 way back in the day, but after that it went downhill very fast.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Can I separate a man from his music? First off, i never really considered him a man since he went straight from being a boy to being a freak who essentially transformed himself into something that looked more like an unattractive woman. As far as his music, if you want to call it that, was never anything I wanted to listen to. I did enjoy the Jackson 5 way back in the day, but after that it went downhill very fast.

Yes physically he was very freakish, and his obsession with plastic surgery was disturbing, to say the least. A blind person wouldn't have known the difference though. All they'd have to go by is the sound of his music.

[Taltarzac725]

Most of those 10 "facts" have no basis in fact. The article doesn't cite any sources at all. A very quick google search pulled up plenty to dispute MOST of those "facts" and bring up questions about the allegations and those making them. Not credible.

I'm not suggesting that MJ didn't molest anyone. I'm saying there's no way to know one way or another. The couple of people who've made the allegations, have been proven NOT credible. What's worse, one of them (Wade Robson) insisted for years that he was never molested and didn't change his story until filing a lawsuit demanding a sizeable financial reward - a year after MJ was dead. Waiting for your *alleged* criminal to die so he can't testify in his own defense is pretty low.

Good you are trying to get at the facts about Michael Jackson which are often very hard to get at when you bring in all the personal interests involved in these accusations being made by parties.

He was extremely strange in his behavior around kids but he had a weird childhood if you could even call it that.

And I do think some lawyers coach their clients on what to say and usually for the money. The lawyers profit along with their clients.

[Taltarzac725]

Michael Jackson - Ben official music video.avi - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKWiZAuHoQ)

Still enjoy the music in various Michael Jackson videos.

[queasy27]

I suppose I can separate art from artist but generally have no desire to do so. If I find someone's behavior repugnant, I don't want to watch their dopey faces onscreen, read their books, or listen to their music.

There are also celebrities I dislike for no good reason whose work I don't support. Why would I yuck myself out?

It's a more difficult call for historical figures because I haven't been personally exposed to their misbehaviors and am generally not going to go research Cézanne's personal life before I enjoy his paintings. The passage of time buries a lot of sins.

[Taltarzac725]

I suppose I can separate art from artist but generally have no desire to do so. If I find someone's behavior repugnant, I don't want to watch their dopey faces onscreen, read their books, or listen to their music.

There are also celebrities I dislike for no good reason whose work I don't support. Why would I yuck myself out?

It's a more difficult call for historical figures because I haven't been personally exposed to their misbehaviors and am generally not going to go research Cézanne's personal life before I enjoy his paintings. The passage of time buries a lot of sins.

Some of the songs that were hits from Michael Jackson will be around as long as there is music. Beat It stands out for me.

Michael Jackson - Beat It (Official Video) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I have a hard time separating some artist's art from their personal lives.

Many of the musicians that I enjoy have very different political views from me. While I try not to allow that to get in the way of my enjoyment of their music, I have a hard time with the ones that are very outspoken.

It's the same with actors. Although I know that some of them have views that I disagree with, I can still enjoy their work. But those that constantly get themselves in the news with their political views, IMHO, do themselves a disservice. If I happen to be watching a movie with a very outspoken actor, sometimes all I can think about is his political views. It actually detracts from the performance.

Some of these people are becoming more known for their political views and personal lives than their art and that's too bad.

There is nothing wrong with having strong opinions, but these famous people should learn that the world isn't all that interested in their opinions. It seems to me to be unfair that people who become famous for singing, playing an instrument, writing songs, acting or other forms of art, have a platform to influence millions of people with their political views. I wish that something could be done about it but that is one of the downsides of living in a free society.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Some of the songs that were hits from Michael Jackson will be around as long as there is music. Beat It stands out for me.

Michael Jackson - Beat It (Official Video) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdxUFDoQe0)

Man in the Mirror is pretty amazing.

[Taltarzac725]

Man in the Mirror is pretty amazing.

Yes it is.

A U of MN law student in 1988 was trying to convince me that Michael Jackson was one of the best musicians who had ever lived. I had a lot of trouble swallowing that. He talked a lot about Beat It and Man in the Mirror. Man In The Mirror | Michael Jackson Official Site (https://www.michaeljackson.com/track/man-mirror/)

More of an Eric Clapton kind of guy. Eric Clapton Official Website (http://www.ericclapton.com/)

[Taltarzac725]

I have a hard time separating some artist's art from their personal lives.

Many of the musicians that I enjoy have very different political views from me. While I try not to allow that to get in the way of my enjoyment of their music, I have a hard time with the ones that are very outspoken.

It's the same with actors. Although I know that some of them have views that I disagree with, I can still enjoy their work. But those that constantly get themselves in the news with their political views, IMHO, do themselves a disservice. If I happen to be watching a movie with a very outspoken actor, sometimes all I can think about is his political views. It actually detracts from the performance.

Some of these people are becoming more known for their political views and personal lives than their art and that's too bad.

There is nothing wrong with having strong opinions, but these famous people should learn that the world isn't all that interested in their opinions. It seems to me to be unfair that people who become famous for singing, playing an instrument, writing songs, acting or other forms of art, have a platform to influence millions of people with their political views. I wish that something could be done about it but that is one of the downsides of living in a free society.

The talking heads of various celebrities often play off of another for some kind of balance even if at times given the CONTEXT they might go in some direction very strongly. The Ship of Fools might be leaning heavily port or starboard given how the celebrities are on deck as well as the prevailing winds hitting the ship.

[queasy27]

It seems to me to be unfair that people who become famous for singing, playing an instrument, writing songs, acting or other forms of art, have a platform to influence millions of people with their political views.

I wouldn't classify it as unfair because celebrities of all political beliefs have the exact same platform.

Celebrities have always been coveted for advertising because their fans admire them and appreciate hearing their views on any number of causes and charities. Non-fans just need to look away, change the channel, avoid their Twitter accounts, etc.

If you mean it's unfair that non-celebrities aren't given the same access to air their personal views, I'd say they're able to find an audience now more than ever with the ease of social media and YouTube channels.

I wish that something could be done about it but that is one of the downsides of living in a free society.

I see it as the beauty of living in a free society. :)

[ColdNoMore]

I wouldn't classify it as unfair because celebrities of all political beliefs have the exact same platform.

Celebrities have always been coveted for advertising because their fans admire them and appreciate hearing their views on any number of causes and charities. Non-fans just need to look away, change the channel, avoid their Twitter accounts, etc.

If you mean it's unfair that non-celebrities aren't given the same access to air their personal views, I'd say they're able to find an audience now more than ever with the ease of social media and YouTube channels.



I see it as the beauty of living in a free society. :)

Well said. :thumbup:

Hard to believe that there are those that wish they could silence certain people...while only allowing others voices to be heard. :ohdear:

Then again...no it's not. :oops:

As for 'celebrities' not being allowed to voice their opinions, imagine how our current country would be so much different right now...if that were actually the case.

On second thought...maybe it IS a good idea after all. :D

[Velvet]

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[Taltarzac725]

Anyone remember Kurt Cobain? It’s 25 years now since he’s gone. Also the book “Serving the Servant” seems to be rewriting history. Separating not the artist from the art but from the band manager, Danny Goldberg.

Kurt Cobain - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain)

He and his music were quite interesting.

[JerryLBell]

I'm a big fan of music, of movies and of books. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of personalities. That is, I don't bother to find out much or anything about the artists involved in the creation or performance of these. I don't listen to a song for the first time and then find myself having to check the internet to find out if I should be outraged by the singer or the producer or whoever. Similarly, I don't scour the internet to find out who is a wonderful person and then try to get myself to enjoy their book or movie or whatever. There are no doubt some monsters who create great works and some saints who create garbage and all kinds of other combinations.

That does NOT mean that I don't find some folks to be disgusting human beings when I do manage to learn about them, accidentally or otherwise. I'm definitely a believer in the old saying, "The more I know people, the more I love my dog."

So, can I "separate a man from his music?" It appears that I can.

[sunburn]

Hero worship is quite common. Misplaced as it may be. Kurt Cobain, Prince, Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Amy Winehouse, John Belushi, Jimi Hendrix, even Elvis.

Sports stars like Roger Clemens, Pete Rose, Mark McGuire, etc have the stats for the Hall of Fame. Their misdeeds keep them out.

I like the idea of having heroes like teachers, policemen. military, doctors, etc. So no, I won't listen to Michael Jackson, follow Tiger Woods, or idolize any of these guys.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

And then we go to "judge not, lest ye be judged" and "let he without sin cast the first stone" and so on and so forth. I'm not Christian and don't buy any of this horsepucky but I know a lot of people here are. But they also seem to be the people who will cause entire organizations and film crews and actors and media employees to lose their jobs, all because ONE person they don't like, did something they didn't approve of. Just seems very hypocritical to me.

Many people misinterpret many Biblical quotes, especially, "judge not lest ye be judged."That is saying that we should judge people's actions but not the people themselves. God is the only judge of people.

To me, insulting people by calling their beliefs "horsepucky" is unnecessary and provocative. I don't know why you'd want to do that.

I think that it's up to each of us to decide who and what we want to support. I sometimes have difficulty separating artists from their work and their actions outside their art. My disagreements with many of these people a mostly political. Still there are some that I can watch and enjoy and others that all I can think of when watching them is has nothing to do with their performance or artistic ability.

I think that it depends on how vocal these people are about their political beliefs and how much media attention they get because of it.

My signature line is perhaps my favorite quote in history. We all need to be able to have differences of opinions and stop all the name calling and assigning motives to other people's reasons for thinking the way they do.

We all sin. We should all recognize that. But when a person continually sins and shows no remorse, there is no reason to support that person's business or art.

Some people have engaged in bad behavior and have apologized for it and have gone out and done a lot of good for the world. Some people accept this and some people will hold a grudge against a person like this forever. That is up to the individual, but I believe that not forgiving hurt the person who doesn't forgive more than the person that needs forgiveness.

We can disagree without having to be nasty, but we also can choose who we want to do business with.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Man in the Mirror is pretty amazing.

There's a big difference between talent and taste. While I am totally blown away with many of the things that Michael Jackson has done musically, I'm not interested in listening to him.

I can appreciate the talent and the work but it's just not a style of music that I enjoy.