Outside gas tankless hot water installation

[Misky1951]

I've decided to install a gas tankless hot water heater on the outside of my house. The installer (Mike Scott plumbing) say I can use a regular electric outlet outside my house. The electrician (Lenhart) say I must hard wire it. Hard wire will be more expensive.

Anuone have experience with either type of installation? Thanks

[villagetinker]

Is this a GAS or electric tankless water heater? If GAS, then I believe the outside receptacle could be used, BUT there may well be a building code requiring a dedicated source. If you have an ELECTRIC tankless water heater I cannot imagine that you would get sufficient power from a 15amp 120 volt branch circuit. All of the ELECTRIC units I have seen were 240 volt rated, and 20 amps or higher.
In the case, I would make a trip or phone call to the sumter county building department ask for the electrical inspector, and then ask him, this will get you the correct answer, but you will need the information I asked above.

[photo1902]

I've decided to install a gas tankless hot water heater on the outside of my house. The installer (Mike Scott plumbing) say I can use a regular electric outlet outside my house. The electrician (Lenhart) say I must hard wire it. Hard wire will be more expensive.

Anuone have experience with either type of installation? Thanks

Same advice as VT suggested. Make a call to the building inspector in the county in which you reside. They are very helpful in situations like this.

I'm assuming you're talking about a gas tankless water heater.

You can also refer to the installation manual (which you can look up for your model). I've seen these installed both by hardwire, and a receptacle located not more than 6' away from the unit, and not directly underneath. Good luck.

[village dreamer]

I used to repair them, and all I can say is , lots of repairs and parts. you may get 7 years out of one??? the metal is very thin.

[CWGUY]

:shrug: Sorry I can't answer your question. I would be very interested in what "Toymeister" had to say on an outside tankless water heater and if there is a payback on installing one. Just looked at my gas bills for the last 12 months..... I don't think there is. :popcorn:

[DangeloInspections]

There are pros and cons to tankless water heaters. I have my own opinions on them. A simple google or youTube search will give you a lot of info.

But to your question as to needing it directly wired, it all depends on the Authority having Jurisdiction, your building dept. Everyone elses opinion, including the plumber's, etc, are secondary.

If you are in sumter county, call the building department and ask for Jerry Franklin. He will tell you what you want to know. If you are not in Sumter county, call YOUR building department. They decide what codes they will comply with and what codes they will make exception for.

Frank

[Toymeister]

:shrug: Sorry I can't answer your question. I would be very interested in what "Toymeister" had to say on an outside tankless water heater and if there is a payback on installing one. Just looked at my gas bills for the last 12 months..... I don't think there is. :popcorn:
For almost everyone there is no payback until the twenty year mark.

I have installed one and the Rinnai brand came equipped with a 120 volt plug. In my very unique situation where I was replacing two heaters (second home) with one tankless it had a eight year payback for DIY. No problems at all with Rinnai after nine years.

Of interest to the original poster there are two advantages of a tankless heater, it can be located outside freeing up space. Second you save standby energy costs, that is the cost of keeping a tank of water hot. Keep in mind that you should maintain your tankless every year by back flushing it with a mild acidic fluid annually.

I have an energy monitor on my electric TV home and a smart switch on the water heater. To satisfy my curiosity i conducted a ten week study of timed water heater vs. untimed useage. This gave me a very clear view of the standby energy costs. About $1.30 a month for electric water heater or .43 to .65 for gas.

If energy savings is your goal i can give you two very simple ideas to cut your hot water bill by 20% or so.

[Kenswing]

We have a tankless gas water heater. Navien is the brand. Not sure that it saves us any money but what we do like about it is that you basically have unlimited hot water. We can also set the timer to circulate hot water through the system at designated times. This will allow you to have hot water already at your faucets/shower without waiting for the hot water to "get there".

Another thing we find beneficial is that when we travel and turn off the water to the house we can shut off the water heater. When we return we don't have to relight a pilot, just hit the power button.

ETA: Ours is mounted in the garage because we don't live in warm Florida yet. It's just plugged into a normal outlet. Not hardwired.

[retiredguy123]

My issue would be that, if you have a conventional tank water heater, and it fails, there are many plumbers who are ready and able to install a new one in your house within a few hours. I'm not sure what happens when you have a tankless water heater that fails. When you need hot water, you really need it.

[CWGUY]

For almost everyone there is no payback until the twenty year mark.

I have installed one and the Rinnai brand came equipped with a 120 volt plug. In my very unique situation where I was replacing two heaters (second home) with one tankless it had a eight year payback for DIY. No problems at all with Rinnai after nine years.

Of interest to the original poster there are two advantages of a tankless heater, it can be located outside freeing up space. Second you save standby energy costs, that is the cost of keeping a tank of water hot. Keep in mind that you should maintain your tankless every year by back flushing it with a mild acidic fluid annually.

I have an energy monitor on my electric TV home and a smart switch on the water heater. To satisfy my curiosity i conducted a ten week study of timed water heater vs. untimed useage. This gave me a very clear view of the standby energy costs. About $1.30 a month for electric water heater or .43 to .65 for gas.

If energy savings is your goal i can give you two very simple ideas to cut your hot water bill by 20% or so.

:beer3: Thank you.

[karostay]

My thoughts are... on demand hot water great idea why heat and maintain 40 gals.if we has gas i would do it in a heart beat

Why would you mount it outside we do at times in the winter experience nights in the 20's at time lower.
exposed out door plumbing would be my concern?

Far as electrical hook up I would ask the local electrical inspector what the code is

[Toymeister]

We can also set the timer to circulate hot water through the system at designated times. This will allow you to have hot water already at your faucets/shower without waiting for the hot water to "get there".


Yes, you can install circulation pumps like this one https://www.amazon.com/Watts-500800-Instant-Recirculating-Install/dp/B000E78XHG/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=KKEO89ACIYZE&keywords=hot+water+pump+recirculating+system&qid=1554667058&s=gateway&sprefix=hot+water+pump&sr=8-3 but they do need 1.50 a month in electricity to operate, according to the manufacturer. They work great but you 're only saving 65 cents in standby costs per month then you are spending 1.50 to overcome the delay of a tankless heater. 85 cents doesn't matter but it is not a savings.

Unless you have a teenager taking very long showers you don't need more hot water. The real advantage of tankless is space savings, that might be worthwhile to some.

[Kenswing]

Yes, you can install circulation pumps like this one https://www.amazon.com/Watts-500800-Instant-Recirculating-Install/dp/B000E78XHG/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=KKEO89ACIYZE&keywords=hot+water+pump+recirculating+system&qid=1554667058&s=gateway&sprefix=hot+water+pump&sr=8-3 but they do need 1.50 a month in electricity to operate, according to the manufacturer. They work great but you 're only saving 65 cents in standby costs per month then you are spending 1.50 to overcome the delay of a tankless heater. 85 cents doesn't matter but it is not a savings.

Unless you have a teenager taking very long showers you don't need more hot water. The real advantage of tankless is space savings, that might be worthwhile to some.

Our unit came with a recirc pump built in. I wasn't really concerned with savings. I just like having hot water when I turn on the shower.. Especially since our master bath is the farthest point in the system.

[Toymeister]

Our unit came with a recirc pump built in. I wasn't really concerned with savings. I just like having hot water when I turn on the shower.. Especially since our master bath is the farthest point in the system.

No doubt the reason it had the pump preinstalled is the cold sandwich effect Solutions To Cold Water Sandwich Effect (https://www.countrysideph.com/blog/solutions-cold-water-sandwich-effect/). Not many people understand this. And it's not really applicable to a standard designer home. Unlike a conventional hot water heater with a tankless you can get, under certain situations, a hot, cold then hot water effect. It's not really a big deal. I would classify this as a first world problem.

[Kenswing]

No doubt the reason it had the pump preinstalled is the cold sandwich effect Solutions To Cold Water Sandwich Effect (https://www.countrysideph.com/blog/solutions-cold-water-sandwich-effect/). Not many people understand this. And it's not really applicable to a standard designer home. Unlike a conventional hot water heater with a tankless you can get, under certain situations, a hot, cold then hot water effect. It's not really a big deal. I would classify this as a first world problem.
Not to argue, but I disagree. The recirculation pump is so hot water can be always running through the system therefore illiminating the need to run cold water down the drain waiting for it to get hot. As your article states, the cold water sandwich effect is pretty well negated in gas fired units.

This is the unit we have. Maybe it's a little different than units you are familiar with. Tankless Water Heaters | Residential | Navien (https://www.navieninc.com/residential/water-heaters?gclid=CjwKCAjwv6blBRBzEiwAihbM-UKqtHdihs2t9XUKyoovCla_7Bu7kFyHNDupCluoKGCUxi5V11a HTxoCKBIQAvD_BwE)

[EdFNJ]

We had a Navien tankless (gas) up north before moving here. I soooo miss it. However if you are buying it to save money (or net energy costs) you won't. You'll be pushing up daisies long before you break even. We strictly bought it for convenience and it def was convenient. I'd do it again in a "New York Minute" (whatever that means) if our home had gas ... even with just 2 of us.

[villagerjack]

I just had a new water heater installed in minimal time by Mike Scott. Cost was $620 after the rebate which Scott arranged sent to him. My neighbor had a tankless installed for $1,200. I cannot imagine how you can recoup your cost for a tankless.

[ditka41]

We recently purchased a new home in The Villages that has a GAS, Outside, tankless, water heater that was touted to be "almost instant". While it is probably true that it heats the water rapidly, we wait for several minutes to get hot water flowing at the kitchen and bathrooms. For reasons known only to the designer / builder, the tank is mounted on the outside of the garage wall and just as far as possible from where we use the hot water. Regardless of the heater, all the plumbing pipes are buried under the house and they have to "warm up" before useful hot water is available. We waste time and water while waiting for warm water to arrive at the shower or sinks. I would hope that someday all new houses here are equipped with pipes that are "pre-heated" or well-insulated to eliminate this waste of time and water. It would be appropriate if this topic were on the long list of things to consider at the "Villages Design Center" prior to having a new home built. The hot water situation is our only major disappointment with the new place and it's not a "warranty issue" of course, but is a constant source of irritation. I'd much rather have a regular hot water heater in a closet than this unsightly thing hanging on the outside of the new house.( ---Rant done --- I know landscaping will grow and the water wells probably won't go dry during my lifetime.)

[Toymeister]

For reasons known only to the designer / builder, the tank is mounted on the outside of the garage wall and just as far as possible from where we use the hot water.

The reason it is placed there is it needs a 3/4" gas line. It is placed next to, or near the gas meter. A traditional heater uses a 1/2" line. It is cheaper to run water lines to it than a gas line inside the home. The venting is also an issue. These heaters use expensive vent pipes, far more expensive than the vent pipe that a traditional hot water heater uses. If it is placed outside it does not have any vent pipe at all, it vents directly to the atmosphere.

[rexxfan]

:shrug: Sorry I can't answer your question. I would be very interested in what "Toymeister" had to say on an outside tankless water heater and if there is a payback on installing one. Just looked at my gas bills for the last 12 months..... I don't think there is. :popcorn:
The house we bought had one already installed. It is nice having no gas bill the months we are not here. Other than that, it's OK. It does take quite a while for the hot water to reach the guest bath (a minute or two) but I don't really know if that is worse than if we had a conventional heater. There's also the issue of the so-called cold water sandwich (the brief burst of cold water you get if you temporarily turn off the hot and turn it back on again shortly thereafter). It doesn't bother me that much but it is something to think about. Would I have replaced a working conventional system based on the promise of savings? Probably not. The payback would probably take too long to make the investment worth it, especially considering the drawbacks.
--
bc

[rexxfan]

We recently purchased a new home in The Villages that has a GAS, Outside, tankless, water heater that was touted to be "almost instant". While it is probably true that it heats the water rapidly, we wait for several minutes to get hot water flowing at the kitchen and bathrooms. For reasons known only to the designer / builder, the tank is mounted on the outside of the garage wall and just as far as possible from where we use the hot water. Regardless of the heater, all the plumbing pipes are buried under the house and they have to "warm up" before useful hot water is available. We waste time and water while waiting for warm water to arrive at the shower or sinks. I would hope that someday all new houses here are equipped with pipes that are "pre-heated" or well-insulated to eliminate this waste of time and water. It would be appropriate if this topic were on the long list of things to consider at the "Villages Design Center" prior to having a new home built. The hot water situation is our only major disappointment with the new place and it's not a "warranty issue" of course, but is a constant source of irritation. I'd much rather have a regular hot water heater in a closet than this unsightly thing hanging on the outside of the new house.( ---Rant done --- I know landscaping will grow and the water wells probably won't go dry during my lifetime.)

Ours is mounted on the wall immediately adjacent to the master bath, which seems like a pretty good choice. We get hot wather in the shower very quickly. Not so much in the guest bath, but we don't have guests very often.
--
bc

[ditka41]

Agree that the location of kitchen, and especially master bathroom should be taken into consideration by the builder. Our wait time (this morning) was 4 minutes and 20 seconds before water was warm enough to shower. Not a good sight watching an old guy stand there impatiently waiting. So, I have time to shave, or something else. Just need to learn to live with it, I guess. The water heater location should be discussed further when considering building.

[Velvet]

...

[CWGUY]

The house we bought had one already installed. It is nice having no gas bill the months we are not here. Other than that, it's OK. It does take quite a while for the hot water to reach the guest bath (a minute or two) but I don't really know if that is worse than if we had a conventional heater. There's also the issue of the so-called cold water sandwich (the brief burst of cold water you get if you temporarily turn off the hot and turn it back on again shortly thereafter). It doesn't bother me that much but it is something to think about. Would I have replaced a working conventional system based on the promise of savings? Probably not. The payback would probably take too long to make the investment worth it, especially considering the drawbacks.
--
bc


I have to stop driving myself crazy. You have me confused (as do a lot of posters) I'm sitting here with my latest TECO bill in my hand. Total amount due $28.70 of that amount $14.25 is a CUSTOMER CHARGE. It's there each and every month and has nothing to do with how much gas I use. Even if you are away you have a GAS BILL. And by the way..... I am full time with a gas furnace, gas stove and a new energy efficient 40 gal. gas hot water TANK for me and the wife. So that means I used $14.55 worth of gas last month. Can't find the receipt for the tank but know it was a little over $500 and TECO sent me a rebate check for $500 I found that paperwork in my TECO file. Like "villagerjack" says " I can not imagine how you can recoup their cost for a tankless." :ho:

[villagerjack]

I have to stop driving myself crazy. You have me confused (as do a lot of posters) I'm sitting here with my latest TECO bill in my hand. Total amount due $28.70 of that amount $14.25 is a CUSTOMER CHARGE. It's there each and every month and has nothing to do with how much gas I use. Even if you are away you have a GAS BILL. And by the way..... I am full time with a gas furnace, gas stove and a new energy efficient 40 gal. gas hot water TANK for me and the wife. So that means I used $14.55 worth of gas last month. Can't find the receipt for the tank but know it was a little over $500 and TECO sent me a rebate check for $500 I found that paperwork in my TECO file. Like "villagerjack" says " I can not imagine how you can recoup their cost for a tankless." :ho:

Current rebate which plumber Scott gets sent to him is $600+ making the cost of the brand new Rheem 40 gallon just over $600 installed.

[CWGUY]

Current rebate which plumber Scott gets sent to him is $600+ making the cost of the brand new Rheem 40 gallon just over $600 installed.

:ho: Conservation Rebates - Peoples Gas (https://www.peoplesgas.com/residential/saveenergy/rebates/)


Just looked again... I was wrong - rebate was $400. The $500 rebate was 6/17 to replace a/c and furnace.

[rexxfan]

I have to stop driving myself crazy. You have me confused (as do a lot of posters) I'm sitting here with my latest TECO bill in my hand. Total amount due $28.70 of that amount $14.25 is a CUSTOMER CHARGE. It's there each and every month and has nothing to do with how much gas I use. Even if you are away you have a GAS BILL. And by the way..... I am full time with a gas furnace, gas stove and a new energy efficient 40 gal. gas hot water TANK for me and the wife. So that means I used $14.55 worth of gas last month. Can't find the receipt for the tank but know it was a little over $500 and TECO sent me a rebate check for $500 I found that paperwork in my TECO file. Like "villagerjack" says " I can not imagine how you can recoup their cost for a tankless." :ho:
Clearly I meant no gas usage. I just got lazy and didn't type the extra sentence to point out that the customer charge still applies. I sorta thought everyone knew that ...
--
bc

[Toymeister]

But, aren’t we the first world? It would be strange if we had, say, third world problems. I don’t like the idea of setting my shower and then the temperature varies involuntarily.

We may have a generational difference. First world problem means relatively trivial or minor problem. It was added to the Oxford on line dictonary in 2012. It is commonly used in on line discussions.

If the cold sandwich effect bothers you install the pump which I have already linked for you. Additionally there is a tempering tank or 3-5 gallon hot water heater after the tankless heater option. That is referenced in the article that I linked as well.

[CWGUY]

Clearly I meant no gas usage. I just got lazy and didn't type the extra sentence to point out that the customer charge still applies. I sorta thought everyone knew that ...
--
bc

:) No big deal..... but I read posts not minds. :1rotfl:

[New Englander]

I've always wanted a tank-less water heater. But after reading this post I don't want one. My forty gal electric does great.

[Toymeister]

I've always wanted a tank-less water heater. But after reading this post I don't want one. My forty gal electric does great.

Knowing what I know I would keep your 50 gallon electric until it dies and -maybe- replace it with a electric hybrid. These are actually heat pumps that dump the heat in the water and cool the surrounding air. They will cut your hot water bill as they are 2 - 3 times more efficient. But wait there is more.

How much savings are we talking? With drinking water consumption at 1,800 to 2,400 gallons We use 78.5 to 118.6 KwH or $9.11 to $13.76 per month for a conventional water heater. It might be worth it to you.

[New Englander]

Knowing what I know I would keep your 50 gallon electric until it dies and -maybe- replace it with a electric hybrid. These are actually heat pumps that dump the heat in the water and cool the surrounding air. They will cut your hot water bill as they are 2 - 3 times more efficient. But wait there is more.

How much savings are we talking? With drinking water consumption at 1,800 to 2,400 gallons We use 78.5 to 118.6 KwH or $9.11 to $13.76 per month for a conventional water heater. It might be worth it to you.

I'll keep in mind. I assume it would cost a lot more than traditional electric.

[Toymeister]

I'll keep in mind. I assume it would cost a lot more than traditional electric.

Yes and they are taller as well. Sold at home Depot and elsewhere. Over 1,000.00. Like your heat pump HVAC they have an emergency heat override. It then operates like a regular electric hot water heater.