Notre Dame in Paris on fire.

[Taltarzac725]

Cathedral fire: Notre Dame cathedral on fire in Paris (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris/3474597002/)

That is incredibly sad to see history up in flames, so to speak.

[patfla06]

What an absolute nightmare, and such a sad sight to watch. 🙏💖

[dewilson58]

"they" are guessing the fire might be connected to the current construction project.

[Tom C]

:ohdear: so very sad :(

[manaboutown]

This is absolutely terrible! I hope investigation will uncover the cause...

[ColdNoMore]

Horrific and sad. :(


First word out is that it was accidental...and is related to a renovation going on.

[Velvet]

Cause I think was renovation. It spread to the northern belfry. Terrible! A few years ago I went to chapel, the ladies had to have dresses at least knee length etc. such a beautiful Gothic building.

[Chi-Town]

Notre Dame Cathedral's towers are safe.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The statues were removed the other day in preparation for spire work. The spire (which is the thing everyone saw tip over in flames) was in bad shape before the fire. I don't remember if they were planning on replacing it entirely, or massive reconstruction. But the fact that it's gone, is not quite the loss that people feared it is. Also so far, no one has been harmed, and the treasures underneath the facade are intact.

[anothersteve]

Strange that arson was already ruled out without an investigation.
Steve

[Taltarzac725]

Strange that arson was already ruled out without an investigation.
Steve

UPDATE: Arson ruled out; structure of Notre Dame cathedral has been saved - WRCBtv.com | Chattanooga News, Weather & Sports (https://www.wrcbtv.com/story/40309500/fire-breaks-out-at-top-of-notre-dame-cathedral-in-paris)

People familiar with arson and its signs would be able to tell quickly if it were caused deliberately.

My Dad is a retired insurance claims investigator and then catastrophe manager. I have seen my share of arson investigations from his eyes.

[TexaninVA]

I read where the fire started in the attic in two separate places.

Premature to rule anything out at this point

[NatureBoy]

My $0.02.

1. If it was an accident then it is a national embarrassment that they did not have proper safety protocols in place to prevent this. Yes, things happen. But when you're dealing with a national, international, & religious treasure you should have layers & layers of safety measures.
Brazil recently had a terrible fire that destroyed a museum; that I credit to them being corrupt & incompetent. I expected better from France.

2. There has been a recent rash of vandalism of churches in Europe. Google it, you'll find plenty of "alt-media" coverage, but no mainstream media coverage. One of the most recognizable symbols of the Christian faith burning down at the beginning of Holy Week reeks of something planned.

Praise God that many of the statues & icons had been removed, and that no one was inside.

[Taltarzac725]

My $0.02.

1. If it was an accident then it is a national embarrassment that they did not have proper safety protocols in place to prevent this. Yes, things happen. But when you're dealing with a national, international, & religious treasure you should have layers & layers of safety measures.
Brazil recently had a terrible fire that destroyed a museum; that I credit to them being corrupt & incompetent. I expected better from France.

2. There has been a recent rash of vandalism of churches in Europe. Google it, you'll find plenty of "alt-media" coverage, but no mainstream media coverage. One of the most recognizable symbols of the Christian faith burning down at the beginning of Holy Week reeks of something planned.

Praise God that many of the statues & icons had been removed, and that no one was inside.

Those are good points. I hope they put in many safeguards as they rebuild Notre Dame.

[Velvet]

The chapel

[graciegirl]

The chapel

C'est terrible. Heartbreaking.

[Taltarzac725]

The Cathedral (https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/the-cathedral.html)

People interested in the Notre Dame Cathedral and its history as well as that of other famous cathedrals might want to take a look at this.

[PennBF]

Did you know there is also a "Notre Dame Cathedral" in Chartres, France and part of the movie Hunchback of Notre Dame filmed
in 1939 was filmed in this Cathedral as opposed to Paris. In the scene where Quasimodo is hanging on the Cathedral and is going to jump is actually in the Chartres Cathedral. Chartres is about 58 miles from Paris. You can stand at the side of the Cathedral and see the exact scene of that portion of the movie. It is very hard to see this history as in most cases they just refer to the movie as though it was in Paris. I am not sure how much of the movie if any was filmed in the Paris Cathedral in the 1939 version?:ho:

[thetruth]

So many interesting issues that perhaps few realize.

Will they attempt to rebuild as it was? Materials used simply no longer exists. Workers-where would you find workers who can make and or understand the joints used in building construction centuries ago. Lumber? No home depo. No circular saw. Glue came from animal parts. OH NO-paint came from milk and had lead added to it. Varnish you cannot even buy varnish of the sort that was usued. Will they accept look a likes?

Volunteer? That would be interesting. Other than the fact that I am scared of heights, my back is busted and my skills are at best limited.

[Taltarzac725]

So many interesting issues that perhaps few realize.

Will they attempt to rebuild as it was? Materials used simply no longer exists. Workers-where would you find workers who can make and or understand the joints used in building construction centuries ago. Lumber? No home depo. No circular saw. Glue came from animal parts. OH NO-paint came from milk and had lead added to it. Varnish you cannot even buy varnish of the sort that was usued. Will they accept look a likes?

Volunteer? That would be interesting. Other than the fact that I am scared of heights, my back is busted and my skills are at best limited.

Rebuilding History: How 21st-Century Tech Can Save Medieval Notre Dame (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27165076/rebuilding-notre-dame/)

Can Germany's history of fire-ravaged cathedrals offer hope to Notre-Dame? - The Local (https://www.thelocal.de/20190416/can-germanys-history-of-fire-ravished-cathedrals-offer-hope-to-notre)

This is interesting.

[thetruth]

Rebuilding History: How 21st-Century Tech Can Save Medieval Notre Dame (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27165076/rebuilding-notre-dame/)

Can Germany's history of fire-ravaged cathedrals offer hope to Notre-Dame? - The Local (https://www.thelocal.de/20190416/can-germanys-history-of-fire-ravished-cathedrals-offer-hope-to-notre)

This is interesting.

We were in England years ago and did the touristy things.

At the Tower of London you are in awe at the age quoted for this stuff. I asked the Ugly American question. You mean to say the Germans did not bomb this historic area in WWII. In private the reply was no, that was built in 1962 etc.

I've not done much research but I do know that Notre Dame was damaged during the French Revolution. I would not be surprised of pilferage during the German Occupation in WWII and later the liberation by the alies.

[anothersteve]

Rebuilding History: How 21st-Century Tech Can Save Medieval Notre Dame (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27165076/rebuilding-notre-dame/)

Can Germany's history of fire-ravaged cathedrals offer hope to Notre-Dame? - The Local (https://www.thelocal.de/20190416/can-germanys-history-of-fire-ravished-cathedrals-offer-hope-to-notre)

This is interesting.

Even being retired from construction that stuff still interests the heck out of me. Some of the subcontractors we used used lasers like that to map rooms for masonry and cabinetry. Interesting stuff for sure. Thanks.
Steve

[thetruth]

Rebuilding History: How 21st-Century Tech Can Save Medieval Notre Dame (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a27165076/rebuilding-notre-dame/)

Can Germany's history of fire-ravaged cathedrals offer hope to Notre-Dame? - The Local (https://www.thelocal.de/20190416/can-germanys-history-of-fire-ravished-cathedrals-offer-hope-to-notre)

This is interesting.

As I teased in my previous post, I am scared of heights. One look at that tower and I am still dizzy.

Safety when it was built? I would expect hundreds died in the construction most will never be known.

[ColdNoMore]

...I am stilled compelled to point out the obvious.

While I can't imagine anyone not being saddened, aghast or depressed (even all three) regarding the horrific fire to the Notre Dame cathedral, before you think about donating to its rebuilding...I offer this.

Although only an estimate (given its tax-free status), just 3 of the Catholic Churches around the world...are estimated to have $85BILLION in assets/cash. :22yikes:

And remember, this only represents 3 (Vatican/Australia/Germany)...of the largest of the church's worldwide entities.

There is no telling, what the total amount really is...if you add up all of the other church locations. :oops:


Given that, I would suggest your donation would be much better utilized by giving it to needed places like Puerto Rico/US flood victims/legitimate veteran organizations/or other needy recipients...that don't have that kind of wealth to back them up. :ohdear:


List of wealthiest organizations - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations)

[charmed59]

Notre Dame is owned by the French Government. The Archdiocese of Paris is allowed to use it for free. This is why the the president of France, Macron, is the one accepting donations and talking about rebuilding rather than the pope or the archbishop of Paris.

[ColdNoMore]

Notre Dame is owned by the French Government. The Archdiocese of Paris is allowed to use it for free. This is why the the president of France, Macron, is the one accepting donations and talking about rebuilding rather than the pope or the archbishop of Paris.

I wasn't aware of that...so thanks for the info. :thumbup:


It doesn't really change the gist of my point though (at least for me), as I still believe the Catholic Church should step up big time (and maybe they have, but I just haven't read about it yet)...and pledge some serious funds for rebuilding. :shrug:

[graciegirl]

I wasn't aware of that...so thanks for the info. :thumbup:


It doesn't really change the gist of my point though (at least for me), as I still believe the Catholic Church should step up big time (and maybe they have, but I just haven't read about it yet)...and pledge some serious funds for rebuilding. :shrug:


I am a member of the Catholic Church and they would if needed. It looks like it is handled. I don't think you are aware of all the good the Church does.

[ColdNoMore]

Notre Dame is owned by the French Government. The Archdiocese of Paris is allowed to use it for free. This is why the the president of France, Macron, is the one accepting donations and talking about rebuilding rather than the pope or the archbishop of Paris.

As a result of your informative post, of which I was previously unaware, I did I what I usually do when I learn something new...and did some research to find the truth. :thumbup:

Here's one thing I found.

Who Actually Owns the Notre Dame Cathedral? The Answer May Surprise You | ChurchPOP (https://churchpop.com/2019/04/16/who-actually-owns-the-notre-dame-cathedral-the-answer-may-surprise-you/)

“Due to France’s laws regarding secularization, the French government owns all churches built before 1905, including Notre-Dame.

“The government lets the Archdiocese of Paris use the building for free, and will continue to do so in perpetuity. The Archdiocese of Paris is responsible for the upkeep of the church, as well as for paying employees.”

Which explains the status of the building itself (owned by France), but I'm still searching...to see who actually owns the priceless artifacts & art that is/was in it.

Which given all of the other Catholic Churches and their assets around the world...could add up to who knows how many $BILLIONS?

So anyway, thank you for help setting me on a path to finding the truth...and thus increasing my personal knowledge. :ho:

[Velvet]

So proud of them, true aloha:

[Taltarzac725]

So proud of them, true aloha:

That is cool. Love for the Cathedral of Notre Dame is a world-wide thing.

[DeanFL]

1. Visited a couple times, first time was during a business meeting in Paris in the mid 1990s. A group of about 8 of us went to ND Cathedral, and took pictures. I decided to ham it up, and put a small backpack I was carrying under my jacket in the upper back. Then posed like the Hunchback of ND. All of a sudden EVERYONE around wanted the same pose for their picture - with ND in the background - we all had a great time...

2. They can NEVER rebuild it completely as it was. period. So IMO, it would not be worth the time, effort, and cost to replicate exactly. My .02 = use modern materials with appearance as timbers etc, but with far less cost, ease of construction, fireproof, long lasting. If they decide to rebuild EXACTLY...visitors would know it's NOT the original. Like trying to repaint the Mona Lisa, or a new Statue of Liberty...

[ColdNoMore]

1. Visited a couple times, first time was during a business meeting in Paris in the mid 1990s. A group of about 8 of us went to ND Cathedral, and took pictures. I decided to ham it up, and put a small backpack I was carrying under my jacket in the upper back. Then posed like the Hunchback of ND. All of a sudden EVERYONE around wanted the same pose for their picture - with ND in the background - we all had a great time...

2. They can NEVER rebuild it completely as it was. period. So IMO, it would not be worth the time, effort, and cost to replicate exactly. My .02 = use modern materials with appearance as timbers etc, but with far less cost, ease of construction, fireproof, long lasting. If they decide to rebuild EXACTLY...visitors would know it's NOT the original. Like trying to repaint the Mona Lisa, or a new Statue of Liberty...

You are absolutely correct.

Even if they wanted to and had extremely detailed drawings & plans (which I haven't heard even exist), the original wood used in construction...is no longer even available. :(


Challenge of Rebuilding (poke here) (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/challenge-rebuilding-notre-dame-forests-143615429.html)

As the oak frame met its end, so too did remnants of Europe’s dwindling ancient forests.

The wood for the soaring cathedral was first felled around 1160 to 1170, with some of it coming from trees thought to be 300 to 400 years old at the time they were chopped.

That puts the oldest timber in the cathedral at nearly 1,300 years old.

Replacing those beams with comparable oak is simply not an option, said Bertrand de Feydeau, vice president of the preservation group Fondation du Patrimoine.

Trees that supplied the roof’s frame came from primary forests—forests that are largely untouched by human activity, he said, according to the AP.

He surmised that the huge trees associated with primary forests are gone too.

[Nucky]

Thank's for starting the Thread Tal. I don't know which is Sadder, The Fire or The Direction Your Thread has taken. I'm Verklempt!

[anothersteve]

Thank's for starting the Thread Tal. I don't know which is Sadder, The Fire or The Direction Your Thread has taken. I'm Verklempt!

Yep. Some people post and then edit before mods can delete. Then things get lost in the sauce. Pretty slick.
Steve

[TexaninVA]

There are certain posters who, while they think they're clever, are at root self-loathing. They seem to hate Western Civilization when all is said and done.

[queasy27]

A bit of related positivity.

LA Times (https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-louisiana-black-church-fundraiser-notre-dame-20190417-20190417-story.html): Notre Dame fire inspires giving for black churches burned in Louisiana

Louisiana officials say the three black Louisiana churches were deliberately set ablaze. St. Landry Parish officials have arrested and charged a suspect with setting the fires that devastated three churches — St. Mary Baptist Church, Greater Union Baptist Church and Mount Pleasant Baptist Church — in the parish over 10 days in March and April.

On Sunday, a crowdfunding site for the three humble churches had pledges totaling just under $50,000. Then on Monday, after flames consumed the roof and spire of the 800-year-old Gothic French landmark and people across the world vowed to rebuild it, calls rang out for solidarity with Louisiana. By late Wednesday, the fund was nearing its goal of $1.8 million.

[bilcon]

Glad we visited the beautiful Cathedral twice. What a shame. I'm still amazed that they were able to get anything out. The pipe organ was so beautiful. I wonder what is left of it, if anything.

[ColdNoMore]

A bit of related positivity.

LA Times (https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-louisiana-black-church-fundraiser-notre-dame-20190417-20190417-story.html): Notre Dame fire inspires giving for black churches burned in Louisiana

Louisiana officials say the three black Louisiana churches were deliberately set ablaze. St. Landry Parish officials have arrested and charged a suspect with setting the fires that devastated three churches — St. Mary Baptist Church, Greater Union Baptist Church and Mount Pleasant Baptist Church — in the parish over 10 days in March and April.

On Sunday, a crowdfunding site for the three humble churches had pledges totaling just under $50,000. Then on Monday, after flames consumed the roof and spire of the 800-year-old Gothic French landmark and people across the world vowed to rebuild it, calls rang out for solidarity with Louisiana. By late Wednesday, the fund was nearing its goal of $1.8 million.

Great to hear! :coolsmiley:

[Velvet]

This cathedral welcomed people from all over the world. It’s great beauty was available for anyone who was interested in history.

As a person who has formally studied religion for over a decade, has relatives from every great faith, I am continually surprised by the emphasis on our divisions and not our similarities.

It is as if evil is snarling, waiting at the gates.

[Bucco]

This cathedral welcomed people from all over the world. It’s great beauty was available for anyone who was interested in history.

As a person who has formally studied religion for over a decade, has relatives from every great faith, I am continually surprised by the emphasis on our divisions and not our similarities.

It is as if evil is snarling, waiting at the gates.

I agree with you.

In reading some of the recent email P mailings, there is actually one that says.....I will take great caution not to give name..."the only real Americans are you, those who support me"

Your last sentence..
"
It is as if evil is snarling, waiting at the gates."

Is right on target

The Cathedral is still magnificent, will be even greater. If you indeed studied religion, you certainly understand this from Gandhi....

""I came to the conclusion long ago . . . that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian."

[Velvet]

Yes. Yes. And yes.

[Velvet]

Merci, à toi aussi.

[Boomer]

This cathedral welcomed people from all over the world. It’s great beauty was available for anyone who was interested in history.

As a person who has formally studied religion for over a decade, has relatives from every great faith, I am continually surprised by the emphasis on our divisions and not our similarities.

It is as if evil is snarling, waiting at the gates.


Hello, Velvet,

I have never been to Paris, but my daughter said when she saw Notre Dame, she was suddenly brought to tears by its beauty and history.

And thank you for the rest of your post, too.

There is an old saying in the teaching of writing that says, “Don’t tell. Show.”

I have never seen you, but I can see the voice in your writing. Your inner beauty shows through in your words.

I humbly thank you.

Boomer

[ColdNoMore]

This cathedral welcomed people from all over the world. It’s great beauty was available for anyone who was interested in history.

As a person who has formally studied religion for over a decade, has relatives from every great faith, I am continually surprised by the emphasis on our divisions and not our similarities.

It is as if evil is snarling, waiting at the gates.

Very well stated. :thumbup:

My concern is that there is currently a large crack in the gate...and evil has already started oozing through.

Let's just hope we can repair the gate...very soon. :(

[Taltarzac725]

Fire-ravaged Notre Dame now stabilized, firefighters leave - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/notre-dame-rector-computer-glitch-fire-culprit-62506375?fbclid=IwAR2MHLiwJvsjk5yNtXiYyfU8hTP8xRui sX3LkfigEu02GaT269pFyf3kojc)

A computer glitch might be the cause of the Cathedral of Notre Dame fire?

[Velvet]

Hello, Velvet,

I have never been to Paris, but my daughter said when she saw Notre Dame, she was suddenly brought to tears ....

Boomer

Dear Boomer,

I am beyond words, completely humbled. Thank you.

Velvet

[jebartle]

Cathedral fire: Notre Dame cathedral on fire in Paris (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/15/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-paris/3474597002/)

That is incredibly sad to see history up in flames, so to speak.

79344

Watching fire on tv and looking at picture my mother sketched when 16 with pen and ink.

[ColdNoMore]

79344

Watching fire on tv and looking at picture my mother sketched when 16 with pen and ink.

WOW, awesome talent...especially at 16! :22yikes:

Did she ever work professionally at it?

Much harder and infinitely more detailed, than the average amateur dabbler who paints flowers or nature scenes...that's for sure. :thumbup:

I can certainly see where she could have had commercial success. :ho:

[Taltarzac725]

79344

Watching fire on tv and looking at picture my mother sketched when 16 with pen and ink.

Thanks for posting that. I did a lot of drawings at 16 and 17 but never got to Paris. At least, not yet. Drew a lot of veterans at the Veterans Hospital in Reno, NV when I volunteered every Saturday for a year or so in 1977-1978. I worked off of the photos of a quite talented photographer.

I minored in Religious Studies and I did take a course in Medieval Art which covered the Cathedral of Notre Dame among many other such structures.

[jebartle]

WOW, awesome talent...especially at 16! :22yikes:

Did she ever work professionally at it?

Much harder and infinitely more detailed, than the average amateur dabbler who paints flowers or nature scenes...that's for sure. :thumbup:

I can certainly see where she could have had commercial success. :ho:


Thank you Cold no more, never professionally, just dabbled. Very proud of her!

[Chi-Town]

79344



Watching fire on tv and looking at picture my mother sketched when 16 with pen and ink.

Your mother's talent is exceptional. Thanks for sharing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190421/92468ed0a3da71699871de62b4872257.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Taltarzac725]

Your mother's talent is exceptional. Thanks for sharing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190421/92468ed0a3da71699871de62b4872257.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Thanks for turning that. Makes it easier to see and Happy Easter.

[jebartle]

Your mother's talent is exceptional. Thanks for sharing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190421/92468ed0a3da71699871de62b4872257.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Thanks chi-town. Sure was eeerie looking at mom's sketch on wall and watching it burn b4 my eyes

[jebartle]

Your mother's talent is exceptional. Thanks for sharing. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190421/92468ed0a3da71699871de62b4872257.jpg

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Btw, how did you turn, in my album it's right side up, when posting, on side, hmmmm!

[Chi-Town]

Btw, how did you turn, in my album it's right side up, when posting, on side, hmmmm!Downloaded your sideways attachment, rotated it, and uploaded in my post. Easy fix.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ColdNoMore]

An interesting and comprehensive opinion piece on the history, significance and future...of the Notre Dame Cathedral.


Notre Dame Cathedral Raises Questions About France’s National Identity – Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/notre-dame-cathedral-paris-fire-whats-next-822743/)

[JimJohnson]

I see over a billion dollars has been raised to rebuild the iconic church. Really, with all the ills of the world and a billion dollars for a golden calf.

Leviticus 26:1 You must not make idols for yourselves or set up a carved image or sacred pillar, or place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down to it. For I am the LORD your God. (https://biblehub.com/leviticus/26-1.htm)

[CFrance]

TherI see over a billion dollars has been raised to rebuild the iconic church. Really, with all the ills of the world and a billion dollars for a golden calf.

Leviticus 26:1 You must not make idols for yourselves or set up a carved image or sacred pillar, or place a sculpted stone in your land to bow down to it. For I am the LORD your God. (https://biblehub.com/leviticus/26-1.htm)

I don't want to get too far into France's politics--they have many of the same problems we do.

However, there has been formal separation of church and state since 1905, with all church building ownership going to the State. This is a national heritage issue, a structure with much history and beautiful artwork. I liken it to wanting to rebuild the World Trade Center or the Statue of Liberty, or the Washington Monument. Very few people are "bowing down" to the cathedral in terms of religion. It's a national symbol. Masses are said there, but it doesn't have a parish connected to it.

And yes, the big businesses over here are falling all over themselves to see who can donate the fastest and the most, at a level they don't do to fight poverty. I doubt the majority would be giving much money to the poor in order to fix social and financial inequality in France if they weren't giving it to fix Notre Dame.

It is, after all, their money and their choice, whether you agree with it or not. The first family to donate (€100m) declared they would not take a tax deduction for their donation, thereby leaving more tax euros in France's coffers. I've not read if any others have followed suit, but I hope they will.

Notre Dame should have been properly maintained all along. The church and the State each wanted the onus to be on the other. Little was done. The fire prevention scheme was inadequate, flawed, and based on miscalculations (of how quickly old timber will burn). Of the five parts of a normal fire prevention scheme for a building of this size and age, only one was in place. It was mostly about lack of funds.

Due to financial constraints, France's plan to completely restore Notre Dame was to take 30 years. The first part, €6.8m for the spire, was underway. At least now they have the money to do the whole job, and do it properly.

[JimJohnson]

Ther

I don't want to get too far into France's politics--they have many of the same problems we do.

However, there has been formal separation of church and state since 1905, with all church building ownership going to the State. This is a national heritage issue, a structure with much history and beautiful artwork. I liken it to wanting to rebuild the World Trade Center or the Statue of Liberty, or the Washington Monument. Very few people are "bowing down" to the cathedral in terms of religion. It's a national symbol. Masses are said there, but it doesn't have a parish connected to it.

And yes, the big businesses over here are falling all over themselves to see who can donate the fastest and the most, at a level they don't do to fight poverty. I doubt the majority would be giving much money to the poor in order to fix social and financial inequality in France if they weren't giving it to fix Notre Dame.

It is, after all, their money and their choice, whether you agree with it or not. The first family to donate (€100m) declared they would not take a tax deduction for their donation, thereby leaving more tax euros in France's coffers. I've not read if any others have followed suit, but I hope they will.

Notre Dame should have been properly maintained all along. The church and the State each wanted the onus to be on the other. Little was done. The fire prevention scheme was inadequate, flawed, and based on miscalculations (of how quickly old timber will burn). Of the five parts of a normal fire prevention scheme for a building of this size and age, only one was in place. It was mostly about lack of funds.

Due to financial constraints, France's plan to completely restore Notre Dame was to take 30 years. The first part, €6.8m for the spire, was underway. At least now they have the money to do the whole job, and do it properly.

WOW! I stand in awe of this post. I am speechless. You have given an undeniable option to my concern about rebuilding a religious statue. I clearly see your point and salute your ability to change my mind. Given your explanation, I will donate to the
reconstruction myself. I assumed religious reasons and I demonstrated the fault in making assumptions.

Thank you for a great alternative opinion piece.
:pray::bigbow::coolsmiley::a040:

[ColdNoMore]

Ther

I don't want to get too far into France's politics--they have many of the same problems we do.

However, there has been formal separation of church and state since 1905, with all church building ownership going to the State. This is a national heritage issue, a structure with much history and beautiful artwork. I liken it to wanting to rebuild the World Trade Center or the Statue of Liberty, or the Washington Monument. Very few people are "bowing down" to the cathedral in terms of religion. It's a national symbol. Masses are said there, but it doesn't have a parish connected to it.

And yes, the big businesses over here are falling all over themselves to see who can donate the fastest and the most, at a level they don't do to fight poverty. I doubt the majority would be giving much money to the poor in order to fix social and financial inequality in France if they weren't giving it to fix Notre Dame.

It is, after all, their money and their choice, whether you agree with it or not. The first family to donate (€100m) declared they would not take a tax deduction for their donation, thereby leaving more tax euros in France's coffers. I've not read if any others have followed suit, but I hope they will.

Notre Dame should have been properly maintained all along. The church and the State each wanted the onus to be on the other. Little was done. The fire prevention scheme was inadequate, flawed, and based on miscalculations (of how quickly old timber will burn). Of the five parts of a normal fire prevention scheme for a building of this size and age, only one was in place. It was mostly about lack of funds.

Due to financial constraints, France's plan to completely restore Notre Dame was to take 30 years. The first part, €6.8m for the spire, was underway. At least now they have the money to do the whole job, and do it properly.

Good points all, but one shouldn't forget that while France owns the actual building...The Church is allowed to use it in perpetuity.

While I can't seem to find any proof/links, I think I'm on solid ground in suggesting that no other religions...are allowed to hold services/rituals in the cathedral.

Of which, to me anyway, at least negates to a degree the analogy of the WTC/Statue of Liberty/Washington Monument comparison. :shrug:

Which is why one could legitimately argue either position...on who should have been paying for the maintenance all along.

I do like the idea though, that France 115 years ago decided to actually attempt to...fully separate church and state.

Although our laws technically forbid religious entities from directly & formally contributing money to politicians or Super-PAC's, one can't help but recognize the value/donation of having those behind the pulpit supporting specific candidates/issues (even when delivered 'in code')...while giving their 'sermons.'

Pass a larger/deeper donation plate?

Owned by France...used by Catholics (poke here) (http://churchpop.com/2019/04/16/who-actually-owns-the-notre-dame-cathedral-the-answer-may-surprise-you/)

“The government lets the Archdiocese of Paris use the building for free, and will continue to do so in perpetuity.

The Archdiocese of Paris is responsible for the upkeep of the church, as well as for paying employees.”

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Good points all, but one shouldn't forget that while France owns the actual building...The Church is allowed to use it in perpetuity.

While I can't seem to find any proof/links, I think I'm on solid ground in suggesting that no other religions...are allowed to hold services/rituals in the cathedral.

Of which, to me anyway, at least negates to a degree the analogy of the WTC/Statue of Liberty/Washington Monument comparison. :shrug:

Which is why one could legitimately argue either position...on who should have been paying for the maintenance all along.

I do like the idea though, that France 115 years ago decided to actually attempt to...fully separate church and state.

Although our laws technically forbid religious entities from directly & formally contributing money to politicians or Super-PAC's, one can't help but recognize the value/donation of having those behind the pulpit supporting specific candidates/issues (even when delivered 'in code')...while giving their 'sermons.'

Pass a larger/deeper donation plate?

Owned by France...used by Catholics (poke here) (http://churchpop.com/2019/04/16/who-actually-owns-the-notre-dame-cathedral-the-answer-may-surprise-you/)

I did poke where your comment said to "poke here" and I think there is a misprint on that "Church POP" page. It said:

"Please continue to pray for Notre Dame!"
:pray:

I think they meant "Pay," not pray!":wave:

[ColdNoMore]

I did poke where your comment said to "poke here" and I think there is a misprint on that "Church POP" page. It said:

"Please continue to pray for Notre Dame!"
:pray:

I think they meant "Pay," not pray!":wave:

:1rotfl:


OK, I don't care who you are...that's pretty clever and funny. :D

[CFrance]

Good points all, but one shouldn't forget that while France owns the actual building...The Church is allowed to use it in perpetuity.

While I can't seem to find any proof/links, I think I'm on solid ground in suggesting that no other religions...are allowed to hold services/rituals in the cathedral.

Of which, to me anyway, at least negates to a degree the analogy of the WTC/Statue of Liberty/Washington Monument comparison. :shrug:

Which is why one could legitimately argue either position...on who should have been paying for the maintenance all along.

I do like the idea though, that France 115 years ago decided to actually attempt to...fully separate church and state.

Although our laws technically forbid religious entities from directly & formally contributing money to politicians or Super-PAC's, one can't help but recognize the value/donation of having those behind the pulpit supporting specific candidates/issues (even when delivered 'in code')...while giving their 'sermons.'

Pass a larger/deeper donation plate?

Owned by France...used by Catholics (poke here) (http://churchpop.com/2019/04/16/who-actually-owns-the-notre-dame-cathedral-the-answer-may-surprise-you/)

The church is somewhat responsible for day-to-day upkeep (many times falling to cultural organizations and religious groups) of all the churches, but all built before 1905 are owned by the State, and it is the State's responsibility to maintain/restore them. That doesn't mean that the State always can. As always, money is an issue. France would like to have monetary help from the Catholic church, but there are legal components confounding the issue. Basically they have been passing the buck back and forth.

There are many old churches in villages with big signs on them, saying (in French): Help us save our church. There are 32,000 churches and many chapels, many crumbling.

By French law, admission to a church cannot be charged (although some charges, like the one to go up into the towers of Notre Dame, can be levied). It leaves the buildings themselves between a rock and a hard place.

Still, if you ask Frenchmen what Notre Dame means to them, they will tell you it's a symbol of their country's history and architecture, moreso than a religious icon. As quoted in a WAPO article: France once did battle to defend Catholicism. Now it is home to one of the world’s largest populations of atheists (https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjwv6K5mdnTAhUBshQKHRwrAfsQFggtMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2F worldviews%2Fwp%2F2015%2F04%2F14%2Fmap-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries%2F&usg=AFQjCNG8hylVdzV02jxpq-WhZuS4dkaIaQ). It is a country wrapped in its religious past yet proud of its commitment to secularism — or laïcité — in the present. (Sorry, a little off-topic, but the whole issue of laicité is interesting to me.)

[ColdNoMore]

The church is somewhat responsible for day-to-day upkeep (many times falling to cultural organizations and religious groups) of all the churches, but all built before 1905 are owned by the State, and it is the State's responsibility to maintain/restore them. That doesn't mean that the State always can. As always, money is an issue. France would like to have monetary help from the Catholic church, but there are legal components confounding the issue. Basically they have been passing the buck back and forth.

There are many old churches in villages with big signs on them, saying (in French): Help us save our church. There are 32,000 churches and many chapels, many crumbling.

By French law, admission to a church cannot be charged (although some charges, like the one to go up into the towers of Notre Dame, can be levied). It leaves the buildings themselves between a rock and a hard place.

Still, if you ask Frenchmen what Notre Dame means to them, they will tell you it's a symbol of their country's history and architecture, moreso than a religious icon. As quoted in a WAPO article: France once did battle to defend Catholicism. Now it is home to one of the world’s largest populations of atheists (https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjwv6K5mdnTAhUBshQKHRwrAfsQFggtMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2F worldviews%2Fwp%2F2015%2F04%2F14%2Fmap-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries%2F&usg=AFQjCNG8hylVdzV02jxpq-WhZuS4dkaIaQ). It is a country wrapped in its religious past yet proud of its commitment to secularism — or laïcité — in the present. (Sorry, a little off-topic, but the whole issue of laicité is interesting to me.)

"Laicité."

A new word for me that I had to look up...but far from a new concept.

One in which...I wholeheartedly embrace. :thumbup:

Thanks for increasing my knowledge...once again. :ho:

[CFrance]

"Laicité."

A new word for me that I had to look up...but far from a new concept.

One in which...I wholeheartedly embrace. :thumbup:

Thanks for increasing my knowledge...once again. :ho:
And back atcha. You always make me think. (So exhausting:faint:)

[ColdNoMore]

And back atcha. You always make me think. (So exhausting:faint:)

Double ditto. :thumbup:

In fact...mebbe nap time for me? :D