Representing Residents

[patbbb]

I was surprised to see that forum "Thank goodness for the POA!" was closed while such informative, lively posts were appearing:ohdear:. It was only started around two weeks back. Along those lines, I felt compelled to post the following in a new thread, which hopefully will allowed by the powers that be (if not, we must ask who is controlling Talk of the Villages):

Those saying the POA refuses to work with the developer have it backwards. The POA has repeatedly tried to work with the Morse’s and has been rebuffed time after time. Going back many years it took a David vs Goliath lawsuit to wake up The Villages to the reality of the POA standing up for the community. Since the POA truly represents the residents, the developer should be obligated to listen to and work with them to make this an even better place instead of shunning their efforts in favor of the HOA, which was actually formed by the original developer.

That lawsuit settlement of $40 million paid for redoing of the multi modal trails north of Hwy 466 and many other costly improvements, including replenishing depleted accounts. It also forced the developer & CDD’s to set up proper reserves to pay for long term maintenance and replacements. Those who remember Joe Gorman & Elaine Dreidame, former presidents of the POA and the late Rich Lambrecht know how they worked tirelessly with the POA for the residents, taking on the developer when he refused to willfully cooperate. Those who don’t know of their efforts should read past bulletins at the POA4us.org website and the Orlando Sentinel archives.

Every resident should be a POA member as all are receiving the many benefits they’ve fought for in our behalf.

[Bogie Shooter]

It was closed because later posts had nothing to do with the POA.

[patbbb]

It was closed because later posts had nothing to do with the POA.
Reviewing the thread it appears to me that most posts were on subject, However, if the moderator disagrees, it would be a simple matter to delete the inappropriate posts.:)

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I was surprised to see that forum "Thank goodness for the POA!" was closed while such informative, lively posts were appearing:ohdear:. It was only started around two weeks back. Along those lines, I felt compelled to post the following in a new thread, which hopefully will allowed by the powers that be (if not, we must ask who is controlling Talk of the Villages):

Those saying the POA refuses to work with the developer have it backwards. The POA has repeatedly tried to work with the Morse’s and has been rebuffed time after time. Going back many years it took a David vs Goliath lawsuit to wake up The Villages to the reality of the POA standing up for the community. Since the POA truly represents the residents, the developer should be obligated to listen to and work with them to make this an even better place instead of shunning their efforts in favor of the HOA, which was actually formed by the original developer.

That lawsuit settlement of $40 million paid for redoing of the multi modal trails north of Hwy 466 and many other costly improvements, including replenishing depleted accounts. It also forced the developer & CDD’s to set up proper reserves to pay for long term maintenance and replacements. Those who remember Joe Gorman & Elaine Dreidame, former presidents of the POA and the late Rich Lambrecht know how they worked tirelessly with the POA for the residents, taking on the developer when he refused to willfully cooperate. Those who don’t know of their efforts should read past bulletins at the POA4us.org website and the Orlando Sentinel archives.

Every resident should be a POA member as all are receiving the many benefits they’ve fought for in our behalf.

Kudos to you for an excellent post!

I hope more residents will read it.

[thetruth]

I was surprised to see that forum "Thank goodness for the POA!" was closed while such informative, lively posts were appearing:ohdear:. It was only started around two weeks back. Along those lines, I felt compelled to post the following in a new thread, which hopefully will allowed by the powers that be (if not, we must ask who is controlling Talk of the Villages):

Those saying the POA refuses to work with the developer have it backwards. The POA has repeatedly tried to work with the Morse’s and has been rebuffed time after time. Going back many years it took a David vs Goliath lawsuit to wake up The Villages to the reality of the POA standing up for the community. Since the POA truly represents the residents, the developer should be obligated to listen to and work with them to make this an even better place instead of shunning their efforts in favor of the HOA, which was actually formed by the original developer.

That lawsuit settlement of $40 million paid for redoing of the multi modal trails north of Hwy 466 and many other costly improvements, including replenishing depleted accounts. It also forced the developer & CDD’s to set up proper reserves to pay for long term maintenance and replacements. Those who remember Joe Gorman & Elaine Dreidame, former presidents of the POA and the late Rich Lambrecht know how they worked tirelessly with the POA for the residents, taking on the developer when he refused to willfully cooperate. Those who don’t know of their efforts should read past bulletins at the POA4us.org website and the Orlando Sentinel archives.

Every resident should be a POA member as all are receiving the many benefits they’ve fought for in our behalf.

If, you read any thread you will see opinions so of which people will agree with and other people will not. A human problem is people think people who agree with their view are right and people who don't are simply wrong. Often that wrong THOUGHT, results in the assumption that anyone who does not agree with ME is stupid, uneducated etc etc etc.

Things are never perfect with anything-any where.

I for one fear the inmates running this place. Imagine some want to enhance handicapped access. Others want to improve ????? golf, pickle ball or whatever. Much study, petitions etc etc etc etc and the conclusion it IT WILL COST AND EACH PROPERTY OWNER NEEDS TO PAY $$$$$$$$$

Aside-I picked handicapped, golf and pickle ball no to offend anyone but because I do not use any of them and yet see all kinds of opinions on them.

[billethkid]

Self deleted my post.

[patbbb]

If, you read any thread you will see opinions so of which people will agree with and other people will not. A human problem is people think people who agree with their view are right and people who don't are simply wrong. Often that wrong THOUGHT, results in the assumption that anyone who does not agree with ME is stupid, uneducated etc etc etc.

Things are never perfect with anything-any where.

I for one fear the inmates running this place. Imagine some want to enhance handicapped access. Others want to improve ????? golf, pickle ball or whatever. Much study, petitions etc etc etc etc and the conclusion it IT WILL COST AND EACH PROPERTY OWNER NEEDS TO PAY $$$$$$$$$
Person
Aside-I picked handicapped, golf and pickle ball no to offend anyone but because I do not use any of them and yet see all kinds of opinions on them.

:)No offense intended, but I don't comprehend how your comment has anything to do with my post or the basic subject of the POA representing residents.
So that this thread is not closed or removed as was the one it tries to replace, I hope future posters will keep on the subject of the POA and representing the residents of The Villages.

[Moderator]

It was closed because later posts had nothing to do with the POA.

Correct..the prior thread had derailed. You don’t see all the posts we had to delete.

Let’s hope this one stays on topic.

Moderator

[JoMar]

We belong to both......gives us a wider view. patbbb has it correct....if people don't agree with one view they are wrong. And the singular support for the POA by bias means if you somehow agree with the VHA you are on the wrong side. Can the Developer supporters always be wrong?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

In any efficient government, there are checks and balances. An organization founded by the owner, with members selected by the owner, and subsequent elected members elected by those previously owner-selected members, will usually serve the owner's best interests.

An organization founded by the consumers, members selected by the consumers, and subsequent elected members elected by those previously consumer-elected members, will usually serve the consumer's best interests.

In the case of the villages, the "owner" would be Schwartz and the Morse family, and "The Villages" as a corporation, whose primary "consumers" are the homeowners. They (the "owners") are the creators of the Villages Homeowner Association.

The owner benefits when the consumers are, if not very happy, at the very least, content as a whole. The consumers benefit when the owners profit, because the owners can simply close down if they cease to profit. They (the "consumers") are the creators of the Property Owners Association.

It's a precarious balance, and the two need to work with each other, to ensure that neither tilts too far to one side, lest the entire structure crumble.

I plan on becoming a member of the POA but I will listen with an open mind to anything the -[edited] VHA offers, and be thankful that they want whatever is in the best interests of the Corporation known as The Villages. Without those efforts, the Corporation would fold.

[graciegirl]

In any efficient government, there are checks and balances. An organization founded by the owner, with members selected by the owner, and subsequent elected members elected by those previously owner-selected members, will usually serve the owner's best interests.

An organization founded by the consumers, members selected by the consumers, and subsequent elected members elected by those previously consumer-elected members, will usually serve the consumer's best interests.

In the case of the villages, the "owner" would be Schwartz and the Morse family, and "The Villages" as a corporation, whose primary "consumers" are the homeowners. They (the "owners") are the creators of the Villages Homeowner Association.

The owner benefits when the consumers are, if not very happy, at the very least, content as a whole. The consumers benefit when the owners profit, because the owners can simply close down if they cease to profit. They (the "consumers") are the creators of the Property Owners Association.

It's a precarious balance, and the two need to work with each other, to ensure that neither tilts too far to one side, lest the entire structure crumble.

I plan on becoming a member of the POA but I will listen with an open mind to anything the HOA offers, and be thankful that they want whatever is in the best interests of the Corporation known as The Villages. Without those efforts, the Corporation would fold.

It is not called the HOA. There are monthly classes on how a CDD form of government functions. Anyone thinking to live here should understand how a CDD runs.

I myself do not support the POA. I think that it seems better than it was when the people who brought suit against the developer were running it, but I can't forget the thousands and thousands of dollars that those people personally received after they won the lawsuit which appeared to be concerned that the developer was not taking adequate care of things like mold in the ceiling of the Paradise rec center. For years I felt the POA bulletin was poorly written and spelled and very anti-developer and did not represent the general views of most people who live here.

[graciegirl]

Property Owners' Association of The Villages, Inc. (https://www.poa4us.org/)

[ColdNoMore]

The POA's primary function is to be an advocate for owners, who individually (history is replete with examples of this)...have very little sway in getting things changed.

The VHA's primary function, is to counteract the legitimate complaints brought by the POA...and to minimize costs of fixing issues, of which developer should take responsibility. :ohdear:

It really is...as simple as THAT. :oops:


Even those, provided they possess a sense of fairness, shouldn't begrudge those (much less take it personal) who were compensated for their time/effort/money/chance taking...spent on the successful $40M settlement.

After all, those legal monetary awards...is the way the law works.

The POA hit a roadblock in finding a large law firm willing to take on the power of 'The Developer' and they eventually found a lower status firm willing to play David...against The Developer's Goliath.

The eventual outcome, which even the developer admitted to "being good for The Villages owners" shows that even the 'little guy' can win...if they have fairness on their side.

It's very telling, that some people hate the POA...even though the POA advocates for them too. :ohdear:

[graciegirl]

The POA's primary function is to be an advocate for owners, who individually (history is replete with examples of this)...have very little sway in getting things changed.

The VHA's primary function, is to counteract the legitimate complaints brought by the POA...and to minimize costs of fixing issues, of which developer should take responsibility. :ohdear:

It really is...as simple as THAT. :oops:


Even those, provided they possess a sense of fairness, shouldn't begrudge those (much less take it personal)...who were compensated for their time/effort/money/chance taking spent on the successful $40M settlement.

After all, those legal monetary awards...is the way the law works.

The POA hit a roadblock in finding a large law firm willing to take on the power of 'The Developer' and they eventually found a lower status firm willing to play David...against The Developer's Goliath.

The eventual outcome, which even the developer admitted to "being good for The Villages owners" shows that even the 'little guy' can win...if they have fairness on their side.

It's very telling, that some people hate the POA...even though the POA advocates for them too. :ohdear:

Do you think it is true that the group who brought suit also had difficulty finding a judge who would hear the suit, but found one in Lake County, a county who in the past were anti-villages? Neither side is allowed to discuss the lawsuit, I have been told.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The POA's primary function is to be an advocate for owners, who individually (history is replete with examples of this)...have very little sway in getting things changed.

The VHA's primary function, is to counteract the legitimate complaints brought by the POA...and to minimize costs of fixing issues, of which developer should take responsibility. :ohdear:

It really is...as simple as THAT. :oops:


Even those, provided they possess a sense of fairness, shouldn't begrudge those (much less take it personal) who were compensated for their time/effort/money/chance taking...spent on the successful $40M settlement.

After all, those legal monetary awards...is the way the law works.

The POA hit a roadblock in finding a large law firm willing to take on the power of 'The Developer' and they eventually found a lower status firm willing to play David...against The Developer's Goliath.

The eventual outcome, which even the developer admitted to "being good for The Villages owners" shows that even the 'little guy' can win...if they have fairness on their side.

It's very telling, that some people hate the POA...even though the POA advocates for them too. :ohdear:

Yeah it befuddles me that anyone would begrudge someone from being paid after spending countless hours grinding and sweating and toiling and researching to help support a cause they believe in. Where would the American Cancer Society be, if none of its employees or board members or department heads got paid? Why should the Developers get paid, when "all they did" was tell the towns and cities they planned on building there and showed up at meetings and drew pictures on paper to show the city managers their plans?

Being paid for work performed should be expected, when someone works their butt off on behalf of an entire community. It's time they're not spending earning money elsewhere, and they have bills to pay too.

As for the specific situation mentioned, Paradise Rec Center had to be rebuilt, and funding had to be set aside to benefit ALL of the Villages at the time, as a direct result of the suit. Without that lawsuit, without the POA, Paradise would eventually have gotten someone sick, or injured, the center would have been condemned, and the lawsuits would have been far more significant.

One doesn't need to live in a community to know how to read about it from all available public sources.

[Moderator]

The topic is the POA. Let's not turn this into another POA vs VHA argument with warring factions.

Moderator

[ColdNoMore]

Yeah it befuddles me that anyone would begrudge someone from being paid after spending countless hours grinding and sweating and toiling and researching to help support a cause they believe in. Where would the American Cancer Society be, if none of its employees or board members or department heads got paid? Why should the Developers get paid, when "all they did" was tell the towns and cities they planned on building there and showed up at meetings and drew pictures on paper to show the city managers their plans?

Being paid for work performed should be expected, when someone works their butt off on behalf of an entire community. It's time they're not spending earning money elsewhere, and they have bills to pay too.

As for the specific situation mentioned, Paradise Rec Center had to be rebuilt, and funding had to be set aside to benefit ALL of the Villages at the time, as a direct result of the suit. Without that lawsuit, without the POA, Paradise would eventually have gotten someone sick, or injured, the center would have been condemned, and the lawsuits would have been far more significant.

One doesn't need to live in a community to know how to read about it from all available public sources.
:agree:

I LOVE that the POA, even while being the consummate underdog, is still right in there...fighting for us homeowners. :thumbup:

[PennBF]

What a good strategy by some writing in and digressing from subject to get this line of discussion to be forced off. The win for the Paradise CC was NOT for mold but rather rats in the building, rotting wood, mold etc. The POA fight was to force these to be fixed and to force a Reserve Fund to be established for all of the Villages. If you read Florida Statue 718 for Condo's you will see this has always been a law for a builder and Condo Management. In order to win this for the Residents there were about 4 POA Board members who put up their own money to proceed to protect the residents. How many of you would risk your own money to fight for the residents which did not live in your Village. I bet very few. Did the court recognize their devotion to helping their neighbors. You bet. Is the HOA evil. Of course not. It is an arm of the Developer to help him and her optimize their return on their investment. As an example, is the Developer responsible to pay the Amity Fees for homes built but not sold? Is the Developer responsible to pay the maintenance fees for Apt's built and not occupied, I think not. These are the kinds of issues the POA can review and help resolve. If the Developer does not pay for these then the Residents are paying for his normal building expenses.
The POA is essentially comparing some Condo laws as to how they relate to the CDD Statutes and what is fair. You will not read about these in the HOA since they may not be favorable to the Developer? As an exercise pull Florida Statue 718 and the statues relating to CDD and compare them. You will see in some abstract why the POA needs to exist. :shrug:

[graciegirl]

What a good strategy by some writing in and digressing from subject to get this line of discussion to be forced off. The win for the Paradise CC was NOT for mold but rather rats in the building, rotting wood, mold etc. The POA fight was to force these to be fixed and to force a Reserve Fund to be established for all of the Villages. If you read Florida Statue 718 for Condo's you will see this has always been a law for a builder and Condo Management. In order to win this for the Residents there were about 4 POA Board members who put up their own money to proceed to protect the residents. How many of you would risk your own money to fight for the residents which did not live in your Village. I bet very few. Did the court recognize their devotion to helping their neighbors. You bet. Is the HOA evil. Of course not. It is an arm of the Developer to help him and her optimize their return on their investment. As an example, is the Developer responsible to pay the Amity Fees for homes built but not sold? Is the Developer responsible to pay the maintenance fees for Apt's built and not occupied, I think not. These are the kinds of issues the POA can review and help resolve. If the Developer does not pay for these then the Residents are paying for his normal building expenses.
The POA is essentially comparing some Condo laws as to how they relate to the CDD Statutes and what is fair. You will not read about these in the HOA since they may not be favorable to the Developer? As an exercise pull Florida Statue 718 and the statues relating to CDD and compare them. You will see in some abstract why the POA needs to exist. :shrug:

Many of us lived here then too, and did not see things the way you do. I saw something completely different, watching personally the constant care and update of the Odell Center which we lived next to at the time. I saw them paint the center every year, weed and replace trees that died. I saw them powerwash the stone wall, every year. I saw them repair minor damage to the pool. The Odell Center was well taken care of. We lived on Havana Trail and that rec center was right behind us. I saw fences repaired along cart paths. I saw the green spaces kept immaculately. I saw no reason to have anyone hold feet to the fire at that time.

I think it wise to have a watchdog organization not related to The Developer, but I wish the one we have would represent ALL Villagers better. That is my opinion.

[justjim]

Obviously both the leadership and members of the POA and VHA are passionate regarding their organizations. One wouldn’t have it any other way. It is unfortunate that the two seem to not be able to work together on certain projects for the good of the residents of The Villages. The Moderator is correct that this thread or any thread shouldn’t be a forum for “warring factions” between the two organizations. It may be time for all of us to live for now and not the past. As someone once said, “As you get older, the questions come down to about two. How long? And what do I do with the time I have left”?

[ColdNoMore]

Obviously both the leadership and members of the POA and VHA are passionate regarding their organizations. One wouldn’t have it any other way. It is unfortunate that the two seem to not be able to work together on certain projects for the good of the residents of The Villages. The Moderator is correct that this thread or any thread shouldn’t be a forum for “warring factions” between the two organizations. It may be time for all of us to live for now and not the past. As someone once said, “As you get older, the questions come down to about two. How long? And what do I do with the time I have left”?
:bigbow:


IOW - "Can't we all just get along?" :thumbup:

[Boomer]

What a good strategy by some writing in and digressing from subject to get this line of discussion to be forced off. The win for the Paradise CC was NOT for mold but rather rats in the building, rotting wood, mold etc. The POA fight was to force these to be fixed and to force a Reserve Fund to be established for all of the Villages. If you read Florida Statue 718 for Condo's you will see this has always been a law for a builder and Condo Management. In order to win this for the Residents there were about 4 POA Board members who put up their own money to proceed to protect the residents. How many of you would risk your own money to fight for the residents which did not live in your Village. I bet very few. Did the court recognize their devotion to helping their neighbors. You bet. Is the HOA evil. Of course not. It is an arm of the Developer to help him and her optimize their return on their investment. As an example, is the Developer responsible to pay the Amity Fees for homes built but not sold? Is the Developer responsible to pay the maintenance fees for Apt's built and not occupied, I think not. These are the kinds of issues the POA can review and help resolve. If the Developer does not pay for these then the Residents are paying for his normal building expenses.
The POA is essentially comparing some Condo laws as to how they relate to the CDD Statutes and what is fair. You will not read about these in the HOA since they may not be favorable to the Developer? As an exercise pull Florida Statue 718 and the statues relating to CDD and compare them. You will see in some abstract why the POA needs to exist. :shrug:


Many of us lived here then too, and did not see things the way you do. I saw something completely different, watching personally the constant care and update of the Odell Center which we lived next to at the time. I saw them paint the center every year, weed and replace trees that died. I saw them powerwash the stone wall, every year. I saw them repair minor damage to the pool. The Odell Center was well taken care of. We lived on Havana Trail and that rec center was right behind us. I saw fences repaired along cart paths. I saw the green spaces kept immaculately. I saw no reason to have anyone hold feet to the fire at that time.

I think it wise to have a watchdog organization not related to The Developer, but I wish the one we have would represent ALL Villagers better. That is my opinion.


Uh, oh, I was not going to get into this thread. I was in the one that got closed. I need to remember more often what one of my favorite writers said: "It is easier to stay out than to get out." -- Mark Twain

Oh well, here I go again: (sigh)

This lawsuit thing that is rearing its head has to be looked at on a timeline:

What gracie says here about the good maintenance of the area to which she refers is absolutely true. That is the area of LSL that was built in 2007-2008.

(The LSL section of TV started building during the height of the real estate market and was finishing up as things were slowing down. We first saw TV in 2007 but did not buy until a few years later. By then I knew the territory well and particularly wanted the LSL section where we found a pre-owned that had been beautifully maintained.)

Now, back to what I said about the timeline, the chronology of the POA lawsuit. It was settled in 2008, but I think things started in 2004.

The lawsuit was started to protect the historic side of TV which is lovely but was getting left behind when it came to the maintenance of Paradise. (Please see PennBF’s post quoted here above gracie's.)

I was glad to see the POA had watched out for the historic side, standing up for that area, the original part of TV which could have been left behind in the dust of all the new construction. Now, not only has Paradise had its dignity restored, but the historic side is enjoying some new building.

I shudder to think what could have happened to the historic section had it not been for the POA pursuing and eventually having to sue over what was happening to the Paradise Center.

Of course, now our maintenance throughout looks pretty darned good. (I am one who really likes all those flowers, too.)

And I am not saying that is happening because of that lawsuit. The maintenance is good because TV is a well-marketed operation growing like crazy.

The rec centers that were built later, like Eisenhower are absolutely beautiful. The military displays in Eisenhower are presented in museum quality.

But over on the historic side, with those lovely wide streets, and that welcoming Florida feel of where things started, there sits Paradise -- back to looking purdy :) -- thanks to the POA.

(I am seeing now that people here are beginning to talk about some of the LSL section CCs beginning to look a little long in the tooth. Let's hope the spiffing up is soon to come, where it is needed.)

poa4us.org is the website. If you scroll down on the left side, you will find a well organized listing of links to all their information. One of those links is "POA Accomplishments" and another has all the details on the lawsuit.

I cannot understand why the "Us vs.Them" attitude continues. The POA is watching out for all of us and does try to work "with" the developer. (We got a new roof from that working together. I wrote about that part in the thread that got closed.)

I feel good about the POA being in place -- with some very capable people willing to advocate for all of us.

Boomer
poa4us.org

[ColdNoMore]

Uh, oh, I was not going to get into this thread. I was in the one that got closed. I need to remember more often what one of my favorite writers said: "It is easier to stay out than to get out." -- Mark Twain

Oh well, here I go again: (sigh)

This lawsuit thing that is rearing its head has to be looked at on a timeline:

What gracie says here about the good maintenance of the area to which she refers is absolutely true. That is the area of LSL that was built in 2007-2008.

(The LSL section of TV started building during the height of the real estate market and was finishing up as things were slowing down. We first saw TV in 2007 but did not buy until a few years later. By then I knew the territory well and particularly wanted the LSL section where we found a pre-owned that had been beautifully maintained.)

Now, back to what I said about the timeline, the chronology of the POA lawsuit. It was settled in 2008, but I think things started in 2004.

The lawsuit was started to protect the historic side of TV which is lovely but was getting left behind when it came to the maintenance of Paradise. (Please see BFPenn's post quoted here above gracie's.)

I was glad to see the POA had watched out for the historic side, standing up for that area, the original part of TV which could have been left behind in the dust of all the new construction. Now, not only has Paradise had its dignity restored, but the historic side is enjoying some new building.

I shudder to think what could have happened to the historic section had it not been for the POA pursuing and eventually having to sue over what was happening to the Paradise Center.

Of course, now our maintenance throughout looks pretty darned good. (I am one who really likes all those flowers, too.)

And I am not saying that is happening because of that lawsuit. The maintenance is good because TV is a well-marketed operation growing like crazy.

The rec centers that were built later, like Eisenhower are absolutely beautiful. The military displays in Eisenhower are presented in museum quality.

But over on the historic side, with those lovely wide streets, and that welcoming Florida feel of where things started, there sits Paradise -- back to looking purdy :) -- thanks to the POA.

(I am seeing now that people here are beginning to talk about some of the LSL section CCs beginning to look a little long in the tooth. Let's hope the spiffing up is soon to come, where it is needed.)

poa4us.org is the website. If you scroll down on the left side, you will find a well organized listing of links to all their information. One of those links is "POA Accomplishments" and another has all the details on the lawsuit.

I cannot understand why the "Us vs.Them" attitude continues. The POA is watching out for all of us and does try to work "with" the developer. (We got a new roof from that working together. I wrote about that part in the thread that got closed.)

I feel good about the POA being in place -- with some very capable people willing to advocate for all of us.

Boomer
poa4us.org

:agree: ...COMPLETELY!


And you bring up a great point, of what the historical side might look like now...without the successful $40M lawsuit. :ohdear:

Hard to even fathom, anyone living there now and knowing the true history of the lawsuit...who could possibly be against it. :oops:

[bilcon]

It appears to me, that both organizations are doing a good job to keep TV on track. I agree with Jazuela's post that a balance is needed. Recently my wife and I looked at some other new retirement communities in Florida, but every time we come back here and see what we have, we feel confident that we picked the right place. It is not perfect, but we feel comfortable and safe here.


"I have never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong."

[PennBF]

A key to the behavior of the Villages was the absence of a part of the governing law which was "Reserve Funds". The Villages at the time did not put funds away in Reserve which was and is a law. It protects the property from being neglected with no funding in reserves for depreciation. Thus the $40M which was the result of the law suit and which the POA pursued to protect for future depreciation of property. As mentioned in a prior note this is mandatory in Condo Management in Florida. It is prudent to point out the result of the law suit did not only get Paradise CC back in shape but protected the residents in "The Villages" from future unfunded neglect. It is unfortunate the Developer considered this as punishment rather than a fair resolution to a very serious problem for residents. Not just at the time but in the future. There is great unselfish broad talent on the POA Board and it works hard as volunteers for you the residents and I am grateful they are there and willing to devote time for us. We owe them our gratitude.:ho:

[graciegirl]

A key to the behavior of the Villages was the absence of a part of the governing law which was "Reserve Funds". The Villages at the time did not put funds away in Reserve which was and is a law. It protects the property from being neglected with no funding in reserves for depreciation. Thus the $40M which was the result of the law suit and which the POA pursued to protect for future depreciation of property. As mentioned in a prior note this is mandatory in Condo Management in Florida. It is prudent to point out the result of the law suit did not only get Paradise CC back in shape but protected the residents in "The Villages" from future unfunded neglect. It is unfortunate the Developer considered this as punishment rather than a fair resolution to a very serious problem for residents. Not just at the time but in the future. There is great unselfish broad talent on the POA Board and it works hard as volunteers for you the residents and I am grateful they are there and willing to devote time for us. We owe them our gratitude.:ho:

I regularly use Laurel Manor Recreation center. For the last several months it has become obvious there is a leak in the roof that has damaged the ceiling in several areas (Possibly from Irma) Last week when we had a very bad rain, there were two big barrels catching the leaks. I stopped and asked the person in charge what was being done and she said that they are closing Laurel Manor for the month of July and doing a complete makeover. We recently were at Colony where they have done a major renovation of the interior including new flooring and reupholstering the furniture. repainting,etc. I don't know how these repairs are planned and scheduled but they are done very well when they are done.

I don't know how anyone can possibly know "the developer considered this punishment". I think that is calling for summary that is not available to anyone, is misleading and speculation.

[PennBF]

I was honestly going to ignore anything further on this thread BUT it appears some confuse the need to have funds available to make sure property is kept in workable shape to normal maintenance. I think Laurel Manor work to be done in July would fall under normal maintenance however if the Developer did not have the funds to repair and replace then "Reserved Funds" would be available for the depreciation To draw a comparison to home ownership. Most have funds set aside to cover unexpected damage and depreciation. If your normal funds would not cover some damages, etc. then you use some of the reserve funds set aside in case of under planned damages. Thus you now have the condition at the Paradise CC law suit. Terrible damages, rats in the walls, etc etc and the Developer did not set aside any funds to cover this asset in case of extraordinary problems. The Lawsuit was meant to force reserves in case of serious problems. The Court recognized this abandonment of protection by the Developer
and awarded monies to protect the property.
Think of as fund of money created to take care of maintenance, repairs or unexpected expenses of a business or a multi-unit housing development This was the underpinning of the Lawsuit. There is no relationship to the current Laurel Manor refurbishing. :ho:

[ColdNoMore]

I was honestly going to ignore anything further on this thread BUT it appears some confuse the need to have funds available to make sure property is kept in workable shape to normal maintenance. I think Laurel Manor work to be done in July would fall under normal maintenance however if the Developer did not have the funds to repair and replace then "Reserved Funds" would be available for the depreciation To draw a comparison to home ownership. Most have funds set aside to cover unexpected damage and depreciation. If your normal funds would not cover some damages, etc. then you use some of the reserve funds set aside in case of under planned damages. Thus you now have the condition at the Paradise CC law suit. Terrible damages, rats in the walls, etc etc and the Developer did not set aside any funds to cover this asset in case of extraordinary problems. The Lawsuit was meant to force reserves in case of serious problems. The Court recognized this abandonment of protection by the Developer
and awarded monies to protect the property.
Think of as fund of money created to take care of maintenance, repairs or unexpected expenses of a business or a multi-unit housing development This was the underpinning of the Lawsuit. There is no relationship to the current Laurel Manor refurbishing. :ho:

Thank you for the very clear and simple explanation...of the differences. :thumbup:


Hopefully, it's clear & simple enough...for everyone. :oops:

[graciegirl]

I was honestly going to ignore anything further on this thread BUT it appears some confuse the need to have funds available to make sure property is kept in workable shape to normal maintenance. I think Laurel Manor work to be done in July would fall under normal maintenance however if the Developer did not have the funds to repair and replace then "Reserved Funds" would be available for the depreciation To draw a comparison to home ownership. Most have funds set aside to cover unexpected damage and depreciation. If your normal funds would not cover some damages, etc. then you use some of the reserve funds set aside in case of under planned damages. Thus you now have the condition at the Paradise CC law suit. Terrible damages, rats in the walls, etc etc and the Developer did not set aside any funds to cover this asset in case of extraordinary problems. The Lawsuit was meant to force reserves in case of serious problems. The Court recognized this abandonment of protection by the Developer
and awarded monies to protect the property.
Think of as fund of money created to take care of maintenance, repairs or unexpected expenses of a business or a multi-unit housing development This was the underpinning of the Lawsuit. There is no relationship to the current Laurel Manor refurbishing. :ho:


No rats in walls. Here, this from Orlando Sentinel;

Villages settles lawsuit, will fund $40 million in recreation upgrades
Article Courtesy of The Orlando Sentinel
By Stephen Hudak
Published Match 9, 2008
"THE VILLAGES - The powerful developer and corporations behind The Villages have agreed in a civil court settlement to pay $40 million over 13 years to cover improvements and repairs to recreation centers, swimming pools and other facilities that make the retirement community alluring.

The class-action lawsuit contended monthly amenity fees paid by every homeowner in the sprawling community of 70,000 residents had been misused by The Villages of Lake-Sumter Inc., the Village Center Community Development District and developer H. Gary Morse.

Under the settlement, the money will replenish depleted accounts used to finance facility improvements and pay pool monitors, after-hours golf ambassadors and Neighborhood Watch staff.

The lawsuit was prompted by residents like Elaine Dreidame, 64, who complained about mildew and mold in the ceiling tiles of the Paradise Recreation Center, where she played bridge twice a week.

Dreidame, who moved to the retirement community in 1999, figured "Florida's Friendliest Hometown" had money set aside to improve its oldest recreational facility.

Well, not enough, she found out.

The retired university administrator from Dayton, Ohio, grew more concerned as she began noting similar, subtle drop-offs in other services throughout the community that she affectionately calls "year-round adult summer camp."

The money is supposed to be used to maintain the golf courses, swimming pools and other comforts that make The Villages a desirable home for active, older adults.

Long-shot lawsuit

The lawsuit seemed unlikely to succeed, according to court records showing that a retired judge and six major law firms from Tallahassee to Miami declined to take it.

But the case concluded last week in Lake County, where Circuit Judge Lawrence Semento approved a settlement agreement that requires the developer to pay about $40 million over the next 13 years to replenish maintenance accounts.

The settlement also requires the defendants to pay $50,000 each to Dreidame and four other named plaintiffs and $6.7 million to the plaintiffs' brother-sister legal team, Dougald McMillan and Carol McMillan Anderson.

Carol Anderson said she took the case because she lives in The Villages.

Her brother, a practicing lawyer for 50 years, was best known for prosecuting organized crime figure Meyer Lansky.

Through their defense lawyers, Stephen Johnson and Archie Lowery, Morse and the other defendants denied any wrongdoing or misappropriation.

"[The developer] has looked at the settlement as an issue of what's good for the community," Johnson said Wednesday in court.

The settlement includes confidentiality and nondisparagement clauses, which prevent the parties from discussing the case or criticizing Morse or The Villages.

'David and Goliath'

Donald Maciejewski, a Jacksonville lawyer who has handled mass-plaintiff air-disaster cases, called the lawsuit a "true David and Goliath" case, citing the defendants' financial strength.

In an affidavit submitted to the judge to justify attorney fees, Maciejewski said the novelty and complexity of the case suggested that the plaintiffs' chances for success were "virtually zero."

He also pointed out that McMillan and Anderson were "a last resort."

Dreidame had said that if the siblings wouldn't take their case, "she was going to drop the issue . . . and get back to enjoying retirement," Maciejewski said.

Anderson praised Morse and his lawyers, saying the settlement proves they have the community's best interest at heart.

Tee-time limits

The settlement also includes other provisions that can be classified as uniquely The Villages, including limits on the number of tee times that can be reserved by the developer's sales staff for prospective customers.

The developer also will provide money to widen six miles of golf-cart paths to better accommodate bicyclists, joggers and roller-skaters.

The agreement also creates a resident-controlled "Amenity Authority Committee" that will have a louder voice in the use of amenity fees."

[Northwoods]

Can I comment as someone who doesn't have all the animosity or "history" that seems to be going on in this thread? I don't belong to the POA or the VHA. I have NO skin in this game. This is my opinion...
I love it here. I moved here 5 years ago. Are there things that could be improved (golf courses to name one). Yes.
But is my goal to stick it to The Developer? No.
It is my PERCEPTION that the POA wants to "stick it" to the Developer. Why do I feel this way? I think you can read all the comments on this and many threads.
I would love to have an open dialogue with the Developer to fix issues. Any and all issues. But if it's an "us vs. them" mentality that's never going to happen.

[Velvet]

To me the “us vs them” seems to be not unlike Apple and the consumers. Apple sells you the iPhone (the Developer sells you house and use of amenities) Apple keeps control of the use of phone through iOS which we have to agree to, and we have the Developer’s deeds which we also have to agree to.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

To me the “us vs them” seems to be not unlike Apple and the consumers. Apple sells you the iPhone (the Developer sells you house and use of amenities) Apple keeps control of the use of phone through iOS which we have to agree to, and we have the Developer’s deeds which we also have to agree to.

Why would anyone want a company to control their device, agree to that, and pay for the privilege of not being allowed to use anything else - when that product was clearly inferior?

When the product has a problem, and the developer controls the product, then it should be the developer who pays to fix the product. They're the ones who claim control over it. If it continues to have problems, and the developer continues to ignore the customers' concerns that they might be getting inferior goods for a premium price...

then it stands to reason there will either be a) a lawsuit or b) a mass exodus.

Pretty sure we see the result of those two choices now. There was a settlement, things were fixed, future issues were given financial coverage by the Developer that they were supposed to set aside in the first place, but failed to do. Developer control now comes with legal and financial consequences for ignoring their responsibility, and the Developer happily continues developing and profiting.

Seems the POA had a pretty heavy hand in ensuring a satisfactory outcome for both Developers and Homeowners.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Can I comment as someone who doesn't have all the animosity or "history" that seems to be going on in this thread? I don't belong to the POA or the VHA. I have NO skin in this game. This is my opinion...
I love it here. I moved here 5 years ago. Are there things that could be improved (golf courses to name one). Yes.
But is my goal to stick it to The Developer? No.
It is my PERCEPTION that the POA wants to "stick it" to the Developer. Why do I feel this way? I think you can read all the comments on this and many threads.
I would love to have an open dialogue with the Developer to fix issues. Any and all issues. But if it's an "us vs. them" mentality that's never going to happen.

You will never have an open dialogue with the developer; trust me on that one!

You may have the "perception" that the POA wants to "stick it" to the developer, but in reality, nothing could be further from the truth.

What you probably perceive as "sticking it" is a group of well-intentioned residents who have banded together for fighting for what is fair and right for the benefit of all residents. If past performance is any indication of future behavior, if it is going to cost the Morse family $$$, you can bet your bottom dollar that the family will fight to the end to not have to pay. The POA will stand up to the developer and fight for what is right.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Why would anyone want a company to control their device, agree to that, and pay for the privilege of not being allowed to use anything else - when that product was clearly inferior?

When the product has a problem, and the developer controls the product, then it should be the developer who pays to fix the product. They're the ones who claim control over it. If it continues to have problems, and the developer continues to ignore the customers' concerns that they might be getting inferior goods for a premium price...

then it stands to reason there will either be a) a lawsuit or b) a mass exodus.

Pretty sure we see the result of those two choices now. There was a settlement, things were fixed, future issues were given financial coverage by the Developer that they were supposed to set aside in the first place, but failed to do. Developer control now comes with legal and financial consequences for ignoring their responsibility, and the Developer happily continues developing and profiting.

Seems the POA had a pretty heavy hand in ensuring a satisfactory outcome for both Developers and Homeowners.

Jazuela -- please keep up your terrific posts; your comments are golden!

Yes -- the POA did a great job and set a precedent for making the Morse family responsible for something they tried to turn their back on. The precedent which was set will benefit homeowners for many years to come

[Polar Bear]

To me the “us vs them” seems to be not unlike Apple and the consumers. Apple sells you the iPhone (the Developer sells you house and use of amenities) Apple keeps control of the use of phone through iOS which we have to agree to, and we have the Developer’s deeds which we also have to agree to.
Some people don't see their relationship with Apple as us-versus-them either.

An operating system is necessary, for an iPhone and TV. How you like it...or not...is simply up to you.

[PennBF]

It would be a good approach if the "Drama" was removed from this subject and we just relied on the basic facts. It is a fact the courts awarded the Residents of the Villages $40 Million Dollars to protect against future neglect of reserves funds being available for extraordinary problems. It is a fact the Developer is responsible for certain properties in The Villages which had very bad building and property damages and the Developer was not providing funds to repair and replace. It is a fact the Court fined him $40 Million Dollars for this failure to have repair and replace money on hand. You can put any "spin" you want on these and in the end these are the "facts". The motivation(s) for the Developer to form the VHA is something only he/she knows and each resident can decide for him or herself based on history and actions of each. I personally fully support a "Check and Balance" approach and the POA is a good mechanism to meet this need of the residents. I am sure the Developer is a fair person and good given the The Villages as a result of his handiwork. But is he open to mistakes in judgement, etc. absolutely as all of us are and therefore it is to his advantage as well as ours to have a POA. :ho:

[Bogie Shooter]

A voice of reason. Thank you.
However, those with some underlying reason will continue to try and stir up trouble.

[Madelaine Amee]

What seems to be lost in the posts is that the "Developer" involved in the law suit was GARY MORSE. Our current "Developer" is his son MARK MORSE. I hardly think Mr. Mark Morse is too interested in what happened many years ago. He is the new generation and is doing a great job in growing and developing TV to the benefit of all residents.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What seems to be lost in the posts is that the "Developer" involved in the law suit was GARY MORSE. Our current "Developer" is his son MARK MORSE. I hardly think Mr. Mark Morse is too interested in what happened many years ago. He is the new generation and is doing a great job in growing and developing TV to the benefit of all residents.

I don't know Mark Morse and haven't seen anything about him, personally to indicate one way or another. However I think it's great that the Developer (which would be the Corporation headed by Mark Morse, not Mark Morse individually, the person), is held to certain standards of financial responsibility for the future of the development in which other people live, and rely for safe and liveable habitation and recreation.

[PennBF]

I agree the discussion of the family is not in line with the thread. It is hard for some to recognize that a "Business" does not have a soul and is in business for "profit". It is a common misconception of some to try to give a business a soul! Those that think that way have usually never been in business or never Managed a business. When referring to the Developer it is in reference to "The Business" and not the family. It would not be unusual for the "Business" to employ family members. However decisions related to Business Policy and Practices is mainly in control of the CEO or President who in this case is the "Developer" and is the bottom line for Profit and ROI. :ho:

[ColdNoMore]

I agree the discussion of the family is not in line with the thread. It is hard for some to recognize that a "Business" does not have a soul and is in business for "profit". It is a common misconception of some to try to give a business a soul! Those that think that way have usually never been in business or never Managed a business. When referring to the Developer it is in reference to "The Business" and not the family. It would not be unusual for the "Business" to employ family members. However decisions related to Business Policy and Practices is mainly in control of the CEO or President who in this case is the "Developer" and is the bottom line for Profit and ROI. :ho:

Keep in mind though, that almost of the major executive positions and overall control...are now held by siblings/family members.

So while it is a 'developing company,' it is much more accurate to call them 'Da Family' than it is to refer to them now as 'The Developer'...as when Gary Morse ran the entire show. :shrug:

[ColdNoMore]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
"Aurum potestas est"


The 'Golden Rule' applies.

" Whoever has the gold...makes the rules!"

[PennBF]

The title of this Thread is "Representing Residents" and is a spin off of the POA. It is totally unfair to the Developer to bring his or her family into the thread! There are boundries and that really crossed them. Would the writer want it to be reduced it to a comparison of POA famlies vs the Developers? I would think the Developer would shudder at the thought of his children being used for a publications. Lets all have higher values. :ohdear:

[ColdNoMore]

The title of this Thread is "Representing Residents" and is a spin off of the POA. It is totally unfair to the Developer to bring his or her family into the thread! There are boundries and that really crossed them. Would the writer want it to be reduced it to a comparison of POA famlies vs the Developers? I would think the Developer would shudder at the thought of his children being used for a publications. Lets all have higher values. :ohdear:

While I completely recognize your right to (and respect) your opinion, in this particular case...I will have to respectfully disagree.

The POA is made up by, and solely represents, the residents here and the VHA is, when all else removed...simply a representative and protector for The Developer.

And given that Gary Morse, who was indisputably 'THE Developer,' but now that he has passed and almost everything is completely controlled by his offspring/other relatives...I believe it is entirely appropriate to acknowledge such. :shrug:

It's not meant as attacking 'family members,' which IMHO SHOULD be off-limits in almost all other situations, it's simply acknowledging the current senior executives...who now run The Villages ever-expanding business.

[ColdNoMore]

As clarification, I would also like to add that there is a HUGE difference...in what/who should be considered "children."

While those who have no connection to their parents, other than just being offspring, who are young (say under 21) and have no connection to their parents except by being their children...should DEFINITELY be considered TOTALLY off-limits.

And I've felt that way about the Bush twins, Chelsea, Obama girls, Etc.

HOWEVER, if these "children" are actually full-grown adults, who have taken on business responsibilities (for anyone), they should no longer be classified as 'children'..in the intended sense.

They are now adults, who can & should be judged...on what THEY do (or don't do).

I mean shoot, if that were the case that all children should be off-limits, I can think of thousands of denigrating remarks made by lots of folks...who have voiced criticisms of grown children.

In fact, I posit that we are ALL...children of someone.

Does that automatically protect us...from criticism?

I think not.:ohdear: