Which is worse.....

[Guest]

Waterboarding of suspected terrorists to gain information on any future attacks planned ?

OR

Drone attacks that kill and maim civilians ?

I suppose the answer is the waterboarding since we dont hear about the deaths and injuries due to drone attacks.



PS: This is not a crititicsm of the policies but of the press !

[Guest]

and I do support using them both to accomplish the mission.
We are so civilized today, our hypocracy leads some to be more concerned about collatoral damage than the accomplishing of the mission. Just look back at history and view the civilian casualty figures on any war you want to put up on the screen. The historical numbers were/are staggering.

I am not saying I condone it...like it or not during wartime, in war torn areas, people get killed. The outcome of previous conflicts in history would have been affected if our so called standards of humanity used today were in place then.

In today's world the USA is at a distinct disadvantage with it's pre-occupation for noting and distinguishing who or what was killed. The enemy knows it and uses it to their advantage.

And the most significant impact of today's special interest groups getting the media and then the politicians in the fray is.....almost eliminating our troops ability to win....and of course increasing the number of our troops killed as a result of un-neccessarily prolonged conflict.

We establish the rules of conflict the way we think it should be played and wind up being the only one that follows them....to a fault.

btk

[Guest]

and I do support using them both to accomplish the mission.
We are so civilized today, our hypocracy leads some to be more concerned about collatoral damage than the accomplishing of the mission. Just look back at history and view the civilian casualty figures on any war you want to put up on the screen. The historical numbers were/are staggering.

I am not saying I condone it...like it or not during wartime, in war torn areas, people get killed. The outcome of previous conflicts in history would have been affected if our so called standards of humanity used today were in place then.

In today's world the USA is at a distinct disadvantage with it's pre-occupation for noting and distinguishing who or what was killed. The enemy knows it and uses it to their advantage.

And the most significant impact of today's special interest groups getting the media and then the politicians in the fray is.....almost eliminating our troops ability to win....and of course increasing the number of our troops killed as a result of un-neccessarily prolonged conflict.

We establish the rules of conflict the way we think it should be played and wind up being the only one that follows them....to a fault.

btk


BTK...I agree with you !!!

My point was the crying and gnashing of teeth over waterboarding and how inhumane we were being, but nothing said much about the drones !

End of point !

[Guest]

participants, however, I am always amazed when something notably controversial i.e. your comparison of the two. Or just simply any commentary about controversial means/methods to an end....protecting this great country and the lives of those who do it for us every day.
Such a shame to miss an opportunity to stand and be counted, regardless where a person favors an issue or not.


btk

[Guest]

participants, however, I am always amazed when something notably controversial i.e. your comparison of the two. Or just simply any commentary about controversial means/methods to an end....protecting this great country and the lives of those who do it for us every day.
Such a shame to miss an opportunity to stand and be counted, regardless where a person favors an issue or not.


btk

You are right, and there should be more responses. But perhaps people read your post and didn't need to elaborate any further because it was how they felt.
By the way, good post and I agree.

[Guest]

I am going to make a confession that I hope isn't misinterpreted or misunderstood. When I read Bucco's post, I thought, 'well, I don't like either choice......but.....I'd say use either one to protect America from anyone who wants to impose their will against us and hurt our citizens.'

I thought it was sorta like the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" and was afraid all the liberals would jump on any answer that was given and distort the point of his post. I thought (wrongly, I realize now) that I'd wait to see replies and study what was said before I answered.

Rules of War have always confused me. I don't mean the rules themselves. Just the concept of having rules. I understand the creation of the Red Cross and having other countries who aren't so humane agreeing to humane treatment of prisoners, those wounded on battlefields, et al. But rules on how to kill people or get important information to save lives leaves my head spinning.

Maybe I over analyze things and read too much. Maybe it is because I'm a woman. Don't get me wrong. I grew up with four brothers. Although none of them were hunters, each of us grew up learning to shoot various weapons. My 91 year old father was a sharp shooter. I was taught to respect every "gun" as if it is loaded and to never to point a gun at someone unless you mean to kill them.

To not use every means possible to protect yourself against someone trying to hurt you just confuses me. Sorry to ramble.

[Guest]

It traces its origin back to John Lyly's 'Euphues' (1578). The quote was "The rules of fair play do not apply in love and war. " John Lyly was a Renaissance English poet and playwright.



Trying to win a war with your hands tied behind your back is not very wise. I personally think that our enemies scoff at the notion of "waterboarding". Barbarians only understand real physical torture. They will slice and dice and use any imaginable torture for their means and when they are done with you,
beheading or your body dragged and hung to rot is not unusual.
Sorry to be so graphic but sometimes you need to see the whole picture of war when discussing torture or killing techniques which this thread is about.

All I can say is that we are fools to play by some contrived international rules when our enemy has no intention to follow suit.

[Guest]

Which is worse? The taste of defeat which lingers forever. Our country's military leaders and those of the FBI and CIA and any other operative organization need to do whatever is necessary to keep harm from coming to the American people and our property.......PERIOD!

[Guest]

But not as bad as telling the enemy they are entitled to a lawyer before we waterboard them.

[Guest]

What it all boils down to is this.

We called waterboarding a war crime when the Japanese did in in World War 2.

Apparently now the rules are changed and a war crime is no longer a war crime.

[Guest]

What it all boils down to is this.

We called waterboarding a war crime when the Japanese did in in World War 2.

Apparently now the rules are changed and a war crime is no longer a war crime.

You are joking, right? I am currently reading "With The Old Breed" by E. B. Sledge. If the Japanese did use waterboarding during WWII, it would be the most humane act they ever did. They were very brutal and barbaric and showed no mercy with their prisoners. I suggest you do some actual reading from war veteran who experienced the Japanese hospitality during wartime.

Especially read the parts where they came across dead American soldiers in caves, whose bodies were mutilated slowly from many hours of mutilated torture.

[Guest]

djplong, I'm just curious about your source for your comment, "We called waterboarding a war crime when the Japanese did in in World War 2."

[Guest]

What it all boils down to is this.

We called waterboarding a war crime when the Japanese did in in World War 2.

Apparently now the rules are changed and a war crime is no longer a war crime.

Again, let me make my point...during the campaign there was much ado ON THIS FORUM as well as in the media about waterboarding and how our country does not do such cruel things. It was posted here in very emotional ways.

Our country is now killing many innocent citizens and children with the drones YET...there is no such out cry....absolutely nothing on here condemning the practice nor much at all in the media,

Again...I am NOT condoning either or condemning either...just wonder where all those who were outraged about waterboarding disappeared to.

Now, in reading you post, DJPLONG, you ignored the drone part of the thread and honed in on only the waterboarding which is making my point. You obviously do not see anything wrong with winning a war with the drones but are outraged by the waterboarding !!!!!

[Guest]

Thanks Bucco for bringing me back to the point of your question. Sorry for assisting in taking it in a different direction with a question to djplong he probably won't answer anyway.

Right or wrong, the liberal media went after the Bush administration and everything they did concerning the war in Iraq and any terrorists policies. They just don't seem to do that with Obama.

[Guest]

Bucco - I was responding to a post and the only thing I'm guilty of is contributing to the topic drift. I've made no comment on drones for a few reasons, not the least of which is that I haven't really chased down details like what percentage of drone attacks are hitting civilians, how band (in general) are the casualties, are they from Taliban using human shields, etc. While I have opinions on the drones, I don't yet have a *really informed* opinion, to tell the truth.

[Guest]

Bucco - I was responding to a post and the only thing I'm guilty of is contributing to the topic drift. I've made no comment on drones for a few reasons, not the least of which is that I haven't really chased down details like what percentage of drone attacks are hitting civilians, how band (in general) are the casualties, are they from Taliban using human shields, etc. While I have opinions on the drones, I don't yet have a *really informed* opinion, to tell the truth.

Oh..okay.....ONE news report of just ONE attack...


‘18 Missiles,’ 14 Dead in Latest Drone Attack

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/05/18-missiles-14-dead-in-latest-drone-attack/

I suppose it is ok with you folks to just kill people with no due justice...no idea of who is innoncent or guilty of anything (I say that because you use the word "civilians" as if we are killing GUILTY folks). I recall the OUTRAGE for putting folks up in the hotel GTMO because they were not proven guilty of anything.

Now, as I understand it on both sides there is agreement that there were THREE folks waterboarded, albeit a number of times...but THREE !


Again, this is not a condoning of either action nor an approval of either....just pointing out that those who absolutely tore down anyone and everyone on this forum as well as in the press about the terrible country we had become by waterboarding THREE people and holding folks who actually had a past of terroist activty in a beautiful place with all the trappings in GTMO,

yet SILENCE on the droning....can anyone explain that to me ?

[Guest]

That terrible Bush administration and its terrible awful waterboarding...

"The Obama administration’s decision to authorize the killing by the Central Intelligence Agency of a terrorism suspect who is an American citizen has set off a debate over the legal and political limits of drone missile strikes, a mainstay of the campaign against terrorism."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/14/world/14awlaki.html?hp


Where are you folks who came on this forum and blasted the previous administration as Nazis etc ?

[Guest]

Bucco - I read the article. No real answers. 14 dead? Yeah. However - about the camp they attacked:


“run by militants attached to Taliban-linked Afghan warlord Hafiz Gul Bahadur, who is reputed to control up to 2,000 fighters who attack U.S.-led forces over the border in Afghanistan.”


This is what I mean about not having a fully informed opinion. I have no trouble with attacking Taliban camps. Civilians are another matter.

[Guest]

Bucco - I read the article. No real answers. 14 dead? Yeah. However - about the camp they attacked:



This is what I mean about not having a fully informed opinion. I have no trouble with attacking Taliban camps. Civilians are another matter.

You are correct AND YOU ARE MAKING MY POINT !!!!

During the last administration, waterboarding of folks who attended these camps and had been involved in activity, at best, friendly with terrorist activity was simply attacked as barbaric, un american,....just plain terrible.

If I am following your reason, we now just kill them and we need more information !

I still cannot understand the lack of outrage by those who were outraged by GTMO and waterboarding....it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

Again, I am not condemning or condoning any of the actions, but asking you (if you were one of them) or any of those posters, and there were many....if you were on here condmning the country and the President about waterboarding of 3 people and the GTMO country club.......

WHY are you not shouting even louder about simply killing them because we think they are terrorists ?

Oh, its war...really.....the same folks said we were not at war !

[Guest]

What it all boils down to is this.

We called waterboarding a war crime when the Japanese did in in World War 2.

Apparently now the rules are changed and a war crime is no longer a war crime.

We cannot trust anything you say if you will not back it up.
Pulling comments out of the air hoping the reader is not going to want to know your source is naive and a waste of our time. Your credibility is going fast like the boy who cried wolf.

[Guest]

The decision to go after Bush with the lame waterboarding charges was very weak but the left's reasoning was that the left had something to rally around. Just like the privacy thing involving wire-tapping. The media blew that out of proportion and it is still going on but they are silent now that Barry is in the WH.

What it all boils down to with the media:

Whatever the right does-it is wrong.

Whatever the Left does- it is automatically right.

The media wakes up in the morning with a that mantra

The media goes to sleep at night with that mantra.
It will be that way until America is transformed into something unrecognizable.
And after it is transformed, they will blame the Republicans!!!:MOJE_whot:

[Guest]

Cashman: It took me 15 seconds to come up with an example:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html


After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.


It was considered torture when the Japanese did it.

[Guest]

Cashman: It took me 15 seconds to come up with an example:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html



It was considered torture when the Japanese did it.

Give us a break, if they did do the water torture thing, it was probably the least excruciating method they utilized.Read my previous post. The Japanese were brutal. They would torture for days while removing body parts of their prisoners. You should read the descriptions of the bodies of captured American soldiers when they were eventually found.

[Guest]

Oh, so you're using an excuse that WE can torture because when others did it, they also did worse?

So if I get robbed by someone, they can use the excuse that when another criminal robbed a house, they killed the occupant, therefore the guy who robbed my house should get away with it????

Good grief - that's the kind of excuse my KIDS used when they were SEVEN (well, someone else was worse!)

[Guest]

Oh, so you're using an excuse that WE can torture because when others did it, they also did worse?

So if I get robbed by someone, they can use the excuse that when another criminal robbed a house, they killed the occupant, therefore the guy who robbed my house should get away with it????

Good grief - that's the kind of excuse my KIDS used when they were SEVEN (well, someone else was worse!)

You said that not me. You made it it sound like all the Japanese did was water torture. All I'm saying is that if indeed they did that, I never heard of it. I have read two NON-fiction novels written by infantryman that participated on island invasions during WWII and you would not believe the depravity that the Japanese perpetrated.
Stop twisting things around.
By the way, many people in the field do not consider waterboarding as torture.

OMG We are fighting a brutal enemy and you libs focus on waterboarding? Pathetic IMHO.

[Guest]

Oh, so you're using an excuse that WE can torture because when others did it, they also did worse?

So if I get robbed by someone, they can use the excuse that when another criminal robbed a house, they killed the occupant, therefore the guy who robbed my house should get away with it????

Good grief - that's the kind of excuse my KIDS used when they were SEVEN (well, someone else was worse!)


The question asked in this thread is...WHICH IS WORSE...

The waterboarding of THREE people who had distinct and clear terrorist crimes behind them and ties,

OR

The killing and maiming of faceless citizens that we deem as terroist because they live in a specific area of the country ?

If you think the first is the most severe as it seems you and others do, please explain how that difference is made....3 folks waterboarded to hopefully get information to save lives versus the killing of unknown and unknown folks because of where they live !!!

If you think the second is the worse, why are you not on here condemning that practice instead of still dwelling on the waterboarding of 3 people ?

The question is not simply for DJPLONG, but all of those who posted a few times a day to condemn the waterboarding and who still do but ignore the drone bombing ! It appears that most of you favor the killing of folks who may or may not be guilty of either terrorism or even the serious crime of living where they live ! DJPLONG, by his own admission is really up to date on the history of, and the law concerning waterboarding but has to have time to get some more facts on the killing by drones !

You may think this is minor...I think it is major. It speaks to the POLITICS, and POLITICS only of those self righteous folks who found it necessary to call the past president names and to blame him for crimes of treason and torture.

Please, respond....it actually speaks to a number of folks total credibility !

[Guest]

Here is my opinion:

I think waterboarding is completely acceptable. I would have no problem adding it to our system of interrogation.

Drones. I am very apprehensive about using them.

I do not relish the idea of people sitting in front of a screen and using hand controls or whatever they use, to destroy life and property. There is something inhuman about the whole thing.
Killing by remote control to me seems too sterile, at least on one end of it.

[Guest]

Sorry to get off subject again. I don't like to see the truth distorted.

"What Asano did to American POWs (who, unlike al-Qaeda terrorists, were lawful combatants and enjoyed full Geneva protections) does not remotely compare to the CIA’s handling of al-Qaeda terrorists.

"Some details: According to the records of Staff Judge Advocate in Asano’s case, Asano and three other Japanese officers took an American Prisoner of War, William O. Cash “and forced him to stretch himself upon a ladder and proceeded to strike him across the back from the shoulders to the hips.” In this same session, another American POW, Thomas B. Armitage, “was then beaten about 15 times across his back during which he was knocked to the ground several times. Armitage was then extended on a ladder, head down, and these accused then poured about two gallons of water from a pitcher into his nose and mouth until he lost consciousness. Each time he was revived, they repeated the same beating and ‘water cure.’” Asano and his accomplices then “took lighted cigarettes and pressed them against the cuticle of his fingernails of his left hand. Three of prisoner Armitage’s fingernails came off as a result of this torture. Both Cash and [American POW Dave] Woodall were similarly treated. These tortures lasted about six hours. Prisoner Woodall was hospitalized for about two days as a result of these treatments.”


http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODBmYmNkN2YxN2MzNTg5OTBlM2Y0YmIwNTFhMTA5NWY=

[Guest]

computerization is the fundamental power of warfare. Pilots pull triggers on missles to shoot down targets they rarely see up close and personal.
All ballistic missles, land and sub based. Space based intelligence. Laser target painted by ground troops killed by missles from afar. Etc.

So joy stick warfare is the day and age we live in. This new warfare is in it's infancy.

It is an interesting topic worthy of a thread all it's own.

The politics of the threads question...waterboarding is not lethal, and has no collatoral damage, but the Bush administration was hammerd by the Dems and the media for it's use....known or otherwise.

Remote killer planes are nothing but lethal and creates lethal collatoral damage...by descritption one would consider the latter to be worse. But not as viewed or ignored or hidden by Obama and the media.

Politics......nothing but politics.

btk

[Guest]

WHERE ARE ALL THOSE FOLKS WHO POSTED ON THIS BOARD IN VERY STRONG TERMS ...

about their feelings of disgust about the previous administration waterboarding a total of THREE people.

Are they FOR the drones ? Are they simply a creation of whatever their political party tells them ?

Very curious...many of those who posted strong thoughts on waterboarding still post here but are ABSOLUTELY QUIET on the drones !

[Guest]

one for one amplifiers of the party line. No free thinking, what so ever. The party hot buttons very quickly become well known.
They also seem to be characteristically only out and about when the party is on the high end of "anything". The rest of the time they participate in lurking, waiting for one of the party hot buttons to surface.

Apparently interactive participation is not on their agenda...one way only....unfortunately....

and the above is strictly my personal opinion.

btk

[Guest]

one for one amplifiers of the party line. No free thinking, what so ever. The party hot buttons very quickly become well known.
They also seem to be characteristically only out and about when the party is on the high end of "anything". The rest of the time they participate in lurking, waiting for one of the party hot buttons to surface.

Apparently interactive participation is not on their agenda...one way only....unfortunately....

and the above is strictly my personal opinion.

btk

I think you characterized them fairly well, btk.

They will comb their favorite sites waiting for hot issue slogans to copy and use them for a hit and run attack on this forum.
They will then smugly go about their business, content that all's well in the liberal blogisphere.
Meanwhile, the downward spiral into the depths of the liberal abyss continues.

[Guest]

Then I'll answer it this way. If you'd said "which is worse - murdering with a knife or a gun", I'd say it doesn't matter - dead is dead.

If you'd said "which happens more often", then if the numbers are to be believed, we're killing more innocents with drones than the number of terrorists tortured.

I also went back to check the OP and the original intent was to be a criticism of the press. I think we got sidetracked.

[Guest]

Then I'll answer it this way. If you'd said "which is worse - murdering with a knife or a gun", I'd say it doesn't matter - dead is dead.

If you'd said "which happens more often", then if the numbers are to be believed, we're killing more innocents with drones than the number of terrorists tortured.

I also went back to check the OP and the original intent was to be a criticism of the press. I think we got sidetracked.


"original intent was to be a criticism of the press."

Yes, AND those on THIS BOARD, and others who called the last administration Nazis and said they should be courtmartialed and impeached because they waterboarded THREE folks who were actually terrorists along with the others who used this a lot during the campaign.

But I notice you criticize nobody on this issue...posters, politicians so I can only make assumptions on how you feel and where you land !

There were actually threads and posts dedicated to this subject....waterboarding, and those who posted and called the last administration names did so in the name of justice...in the name of this country, YET ARE SILENT AS WE KILL AND MAIM INNOCENT CIVILIANS !

They posted on here and called the entire administration names because they detained folk who had definitive ties to terrorist activity in a sit in GTMO that was better than most homes in this country, YET ARE SILENT AS WE KILL AND MAIM FOLKS WHO WE DONT EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.

NONE of those folks have posted in this thread, nor have they condemned anything that this administration is doing that IS THE SAME AS THE LAST ADMINISTRATION, which if you check is very very substantial in the area of the war against terrorism.

As you can see, right or wrong, I have a real problem with those who came on here during the campaign, called a lot of people names, made a lot of harsh statements, and apparently ONLY IN THE NAME OF THEIR PARTY AFFLIATION, not in the name of this country !

[Guest]

I must give you credit the way you presented your post was very clever. You imply that waterboarding will absolutely, all the time gain information on future attacks. A good assumption on your part but not proven by the facts.
Then you imply that all drone attacks kill and maim civilians Again an assumption not proven.

[Guest]

I must give you credit the way you presented your post was very clever. You imply that waterboarding will absolutely, all the time gain information on future attacks. A good assumption on your part but not proven by the facts.
Then you imply that all drone attacks kill and maim civilians Again an assumption not proven.


You are so correct...so smart.

Here are some facts...we waterboarded THREE PEOPLE who were involved in terrorism


We have killed HUNDREDS AT LEAST of people that we have no idea who they are or what they did nor did not do !

Please explain the meaning of your post....I imply nothing...I am telling you facts and if you are awake at all, you know it to be factual...so please what is your point and most importantly WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE ANY.

Is this a defense of droning...a condemnation of waterboarding ? WHAT ?

Are you ok with the drones and not ok with waterboarding ? Are you ok with waterboarding if it works ? please explain

[Guest]

Here's some facts (if you believe the Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/world/asia/20drones.html

[Guest]

Here's some facts (if you believe the Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/world/asia/20drones.html


First of all, I support and think the drones are a good idea !

What I am upset about is the total hypocrisy and party before country attitude of folks who, on this very board, called names of those who waterboarded THREE people.....who held captive folks who were actually involved with terrorisism in GTMO which is probably like a 3 or 4 star hotel, YET ARE SILENT ON THE DRONES.

People like that really bother me....makes me get so angry at the hyprcosiy of folks who throw around words like justice, civil, un american, etc.

Wayne comes on here and makes what I can only describe as an inane comment....seemed like a reflex built in to every left wing advocate...we gotta say something and try to make them look bad.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE ....IF YOU HATE WATERBOARDING...YOU MUST BE TREMBLING OVER THE DRONES !