Why O why & Why O why???

[dewilson58]

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:

[Arctic Fox]

IMHO

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept? - because it supplies a nice, easy life-style

Why do other people appear to want to be negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer? - jealousy

[Mikeod]

We looked at many places to retire. I never thought I would leave San Diego County, but it got so crowded and gang troubles made the decision easier. I am an avid golfer, but my wife is not. So many places we looked at were centered around a golf course(s) and a clubhouse. Great for me, not for her. On a trip to visit my son in Sarasota, we decided to look here and found a community that certainly filled my golfing expectations but most importantly provided the abundance of activities to fulfill those of my wife.

We’ve been here 13 years and appreciate what the
Morse family has built as they have built a community that has opportunities for many interests. Further, they live here as well and show no intent to leave. Yes, they remain in control either directly or through the central CDDs, but their record is largely positive.

So, I do appreciate the developer and what they’ve created for us to purchase a home and a lifestyle. I do also support those who watch out for the residents as this community grows.

Why do some appear negative? One thought is that the place seems like a resort to some instead of a community. In a resort, you tend to feel the owner should provide for your expectations, and I think some residents feel the developer is not doing that for them.

[dewilson58]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

[photo1902]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

I agree 100%.

[mgb10155]

Maybe the complainers don't have the guts to put their own money on the line when starting a business.
I know a few business owners and most don't turn a real profit for quite some time after starting out.

[vintageogauge]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[DAVES]

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:

People are people.
Some of the ones you mention. The Wright Brothers-most know or think they know that they were bicycle mechanics.
At the time, even today building a bicycle required engineering, machining as well as manufacturing and sales. One of the key things the Wright Brothers did was to make their engine out of aluminum rather than cast iron, steel etc. At the time aluminum was both rare and expensive. Perhaps same as today, after their first flight the Wright Brothers attempted to sell to the military.

Ben Franklin was apprenticed to his brother-A CODE OF HONOR.
Ben Franklin learned quickly as he was very bright but he broke his father's contract of honor and quit the terms of his apprenticeship. It is interesting that he has a reputation as a ladies man. HUM it was not due to his looks.

As far as the developer. My opinion as I read these threads, few comprehend what it takes to run this place. People being people will/do complain. It is clearly RARE that people who complain have a solution to the problem. I for one regularly wonder what this place would be like if the INMATES were running it.

[It's Hot There]

I'm waiting for the negative posters to post.

[Cisco Kid]

Because people suck .

[EdFNJ]

i'm waiting for the negative posters to post.


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[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

That's a pretty negative post, right there. Shaming people you've never met on a forum created to benefit the community in which you live...

[karostay]

If it wasn't for negativity...TOTV wouldn't exist
It basically a place to express Villages drama I know off topic

[queasy27]

Do some posters actually dislike the developer or are they simply tired of slavish devotion to the Morse family and the refusal to hear a bad word about them on the part of some other posters?

Is it negative for someone to remark that they found the evening with the developer to be boring, or not to like The Sun, or to wish for different/more amenities? People can enjoy living here and admire all that's been accomplished but still have a few gripes.

Telling everyone who has a complaint that they're free to leave is the real negativity, IMO.

[dewilson58]

-32
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:bigbow:

[dewilson58]

That's a pretty negative post, right there. Shaming people you've never met on a forum created to benefit the community in which you live...




Not really. It could be a reason for negativity.


If you re-read the OP = "Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???"


The post responds to the OP.


:bigbow:

[kcrazorbackfan]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

Right on! Good post! 👏👏👏👏👏

[Northwoods]

I give The Developer a lot of credit. The Morse family's built an impressive community. They have every right to make a profit.
I get tired of people who complain that "Da Developer" only cares about the money. They feel that The Developer should pay for or fix everything. I don't think people understand what it takes to develop and maintain something like this.
But mostly I don't understand if people have such disdain for an entity that they feel is only in it for the money, why do they stay?
I worked for a large corporation and there were people who constantly complained about "the company/management." I always wondered why they worked there? No one is holding a gun to your head... go somewhere that is a better fit. If you're not willing to do that... then why are you complaining??

[Velvet]

What’s the difference between an opinion one doesn’t agree with and shaming? I see the negative comments as the former myself.

[Two Bills]

When I was a young, just promoted squaddie, I asked my old sergeant why the lads were always bitching and complaining.
"Thats good," he said, "they are still listening, and doing what you say. Start worrying, and watch your back when they stop!"
Carried that advice right through my working life. So true.

[perrjojo]

The Developer could give every household $1000 and some would complain.

[dewilson58]

The Developer could give every household $1000 and some would complain.






:coolsmiley:

[Two Bills]

The Developer could give every household $1000 and some would complain.

Come on! The mean tightwad should make it $2000 :icon_wink:

[Love2Swim]

Negative posters do not like successful &/or rich people......probably posters' self inadequacies.

I totally disagree. I am financially very well off, and I am not at all jealous of the developer. But I think businesses have certain responsibilities particularly when you create a place for retired people who have sunk much of their savings and uprooted their lives to live in the place you have developed. The developer has created expectations and made promises, and they need to be held accountable. For example, this place is heavily advertised as a golf community, and the overall condition of the golf courses is sub-par. That is inexcusable in my opinion. There are other examples, (I'm thinking of the $40 million class action lawsuit where the Developer mis-used amenity fees) but the point is, the actions of the Developer have been less than stellar in certain situations and residents have a right to be unhappy and need to pay attention so they aren't taken advantage of.

[dewilson58]

I totally disagree. I am financially very well off, and I am not at all jealous of the developer. But I think businesses have certain responsibilities particularly when you create a place for retired people who have sunk much of their savings and uprooted their lives to live in the place you have developed. The developer has created expectations and made promises, and they need to be held accountable. For example, this place is heavily advertised as a golf community, and the overall condition of the golf courses is sub-par. That is inexcusable in my opinion. There are other examples, (I'm thinking of the $40 million class action lawsuit where the Developer mis-used amenity fees) but the point is, the actions of the Developer have been less than stellar in certain situations and residents have a right to be unhappy and need to pay attention so they aren't taken advantage of.




Thanks.


Interesting.


Have you played the Country Clubs lately????.........the conditions are far from sub-par. Sometimes the condition slips on a CC course once-in-a-while, but it's addressed. I enjoy the courses.



Mis-use of fees is never stellar. But the thread is really for the people who are constantly negative towards the Developer........no matter what. "You" know who they are. Just wondering why.


Thanks for the post.

[Nucky]

The Glass is Half Empty, The Glass is Half Full! There is no way that at our advanced ages that anyone will ever Change, Much!

That being said I find it hard to believe that anyone would have any kind of grudge or Negative feeling toward anyone who put an Operation Like this together. If it's because of Jealousy then some kind of Professional Counseling should help you find the answers you seek. Don't forget for a minute that This Wonderful Family didn't twitch their nose like Samantha on Bewitched and all of this just appeared. Any Business Owner can tell you that they had many sleepless nights while building their business. They paid their dues.

We are entirely grateful to everyone who put this entire deal together. Not only The Morse Family. They have many devoted employees who actually care about the way we live. What a Superior way of life this is over any that we've been personally exposed to or told about. I rest my case for my Support Side of the Story!

For those who don't support all those that I mentioned or who find it necessary to speak of the people as Da Family which I take as a derogatory term, a shot to tie them to negative connotations of the mob, I feel sorry for you for missing out on the Best Way To Spend $150 A Month And Feel Great About It. If Da Family was used in a Joking Way, I Apologize for my thoughts. It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and Spew Venom. I wonder if that would be said Face to Face if the Opportunity ever Arose.

[Shbullet]

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:

My opinion is that at the macro level most people support TV concepts...in fact most people give high praise to it.

My opinion is also that what we refer to as negative comments comes much more at the micro level....things that directly affect them....long lines at the pickle ball courts, some road conditions, classes too full, and one that really is stepping into a hot bed by mentioning is the condition of the executives courses.

So in summary, I think the positives towards TV concepts are at a macro level and most of the negatives comes from the micro level. Some would equate those negatives as being negative towards tv concepts and the developer personally when in reality they are not at all.

[dewilson58]

My opinion is that at the macro level most people support TV concepts...in fact most people give high praise to it.

My opinion is also that what we refer to as negative comments comes much more at the micro level....things that directly affect them....long lines at the pickle ball courts, some road conditions, classes too full, and one that really is stepping into a hot bed by mentioning is the condition of the executives courses.

So in summary, I think the positives towards TV concepts are at a macro level and most of the negatives comes from the micro level.




As an Economist, I appreciate your prospective.

[2BNTV]

I always say, "where were you when the developer went to the bank to borrow large sums of money"?, before they even knew TV would be wildly successful. This was nothing but watermelon farms and pastures and the developer had the vision to build what I would call a paradise. Is it perfect? No, but it's awfully close.

Who's to say how one is raised, to view life as a positive experience or to feel as if the other shoe is ready to drop.

I for one, am glad the developer had children/grandchilren, who plan on staying here and keep this place in immaculate condition.

I prefer to look at the positives as I never have lived in a place that runs like clockwork.

[Packer Fan]

I agree, most of the criticism here is aimed at very specific issues in TV, not TV as a whole. Some people will throw in negative comments that are based in Jealousy, but we all know who they are and should ignore them.
If you want Negative, go on the Facebook pages dedicated to TV - there it is mostly people from out of state and locals around Lady Lake and from surrounding retirement communities - and they are horribly negative. Just bashing.
I actually dropped off of a few they were just so bad.
Ed

[eweissenbach]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

[Shbullet]

I agree, most of the criticism here is aimed at very specific issues in TV, not TV as a whole. Some people will throw in negative comments that are based in Jealousy, but we all know who they are and should ignore them.
If you want Negative, go on the Facebook pages dedicated to TV - there it is mostly people from out of state and locals around Lady Lake and from surrounding retirement communities - and they are horribly negative. Just bashing.
I actually dropped off of a few they were just so bad.
Ed

Agree! By the way Im also a Packer/Bucks/Brewers fan..Born and raised in Milw and now in Caledonia for the past 10 years. We are neighbors up north!

[Shbullet]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

What a perfect response..I agree with everything you wrote.. And i must say as delighted I am with the vision and overall community and it's success, Im equally bothered when some have a problem with those that use this forum to make others aware of problems that directly affect them. Both voices need to be loud and clear and free from harsh reply s.

[Packer Fan]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

I mostly agree with you. However, I don't know anybody who feels the developers are perfect. I have never heard anyone say that. I think the issue is with people who see them as horrible, greedy, stupid, etc. I think those of us who are big supporters - myself included - disagree with some things they do. Small criticism are ok, condemnation is not really called for regarding people who provide such a beautiful community for us all to enjoy.

[dewilson58]

i mostly agree with you. However, i don't know anybody who feels the developers are perfect. I have never heard anyone say that. I think the issue is with people who see them as horrible, greedy, stupid, etc. I think those of us who are big supporters - myself included - disagree with some things they do. Small criticism are ok, condemnation is not really called for regarding people who provide such a beautiful community for us all to enjoy.




bingo

[Bay Kid]

Thank God they created such a fabulous place to live. At least they earned every penny and then some.

[collie1228]

It seems to me that the level of problems here in The Villages is relatively minor. Compare our lifestyle with those in New York City with its high taxes and traffic, or Seattle or San Francisco with their out of control homelessness and high cost of living, or the Texas border towns who have had 250K of new uninvited citizens added to their communities this year already, and the Morse family's push for growth seems minor so far. Even with the push south, TV is still a great place to live.

[New Englander]

It seems to me that the level of problems here in The Villages is relatively minor. Compare our lifestyle with those in New York City with its high taxes and traffic, or Seattle or San Francisco with their out of control homelessness and high cost of living, or the Texas border towns who have had 250K of new uninvited citizens added to their communities this year already, and the Morse family's push for growth seems minor so far. Even with the push south, TV is still a great place to live.

Sure is!

[Shambles]

Thanks for your comments. I owned small business for over thirty years so I can appreciate what the developers have done and continue to do here. After one "lifestyle weekend" I was sold on this place, bought a house and moved here two years ago. The Villages is expertly planned, beautifully landscaped, and meticulously maintained. I don't play golf but thoroughly enjoy the restaurants, music, and car scenes here.

I read the local forums and it seems that some people just try to THINK up stuff to complain about. Sure, there's room for improvement in some areas, but one would be hard pressed to find a better retirement community with a range of home prices and enforcement of covenants and rules. This, along with gated neighborhoods and security patrols, keeps crime low and property values high. Having always had large lots with either woods, water, or golf courses in my back yard, I was concerned about the close proximity of the houses here but this is the quietest, safest place I've ever lived. Developers, please keep up the good work!

[dewilson58]

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:




Where are the Negative / Dislikers ????................The thread has been up for a week and the Debbie-Downers still have not told their side of the story. I know you are out there.





:popcorn:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm thinking it's the whole "owe them a debt of gratitude" stuff most "negativers/dislikers" take issue with. Do any of you extol the virtues of George Jenkins? Do you post on public fora elsewhere about how you owe a debt of gratitude to William Milton Davis and his sons Artemus Darius Davis, James Elsworth Davis, Milton Austin Davis and Tine Wayne Davis? What about your debt of gratitude for Catherine de Medici?

Why don't I ever see any posts about any of these things in the appropriate threads? When you talk about how much you like Publix, Winn Dixie, or ice cream, you really should show your appreciation for these people who created these companies (and that product) that you claim to love so much. Or do you not also owe them a debt of gratitude? What of the inventor of velcro, or shoe laces? The guy who built the very first golf cart - when was the last time any of you kowtowed in reverence to him?

If you say because this is The Villages forum, I'll respond - there are hundreds of threads about supermarkets, ice cream, golf carts, and shoes. And in the dozens of threads on these topics I've actually read, I haven't once read a single post from anyone thanking the people who created the items/places of interest. Only the Morses get that honor, as if they were a pantheon to be worshipped. It's just kind of cheesy.

[graciegirl]

I'm thinking it's the whole "owe them a debt of gratitude" stuff most "negativers/dislikers" take issue with. Do any of you extol the virtues of George Jenkins? Do you post on public fora elsewhere about how you owe a debt of gratitude to William Milton Davis and his sons Artemus Darius Davis, James Elsworth Davis, Milton Austin Davis and Tine Wayne Davis? What about your debt of gratitude for Catherine de Medici?

Why don't I ever see any posts about any of these things in the appropriate threads? When you talk about how much you like Publix, Winn Dixie, or ice cream, you really should show your appreciation for these people who created these companies (and that product) that you claim to love so much. Or do you not also owe them a debt of gratitude? What of the inventor of velcro, or shoe laces? The guy who built the very first golf cart - when was the last time any of you kowtowed in reverence to him?

If you say because this is The Villages forum, I'll respond - there are hundreds of threads about supermarkets, ice cream, golf carts, and shoes. And in the dozens of threads on these topics I've actually read, I haven't once read a single post from anyone thanking the people who created the items/places of interest. Only the Morses get that honor, as if they were a pantheon to be worshipped. It's just kind of cheesy.

I don't think cheesy is a valid word to use here. Perhaps baffling or confusing would be a more palatable word to me.

It is more a question of what people find valuable about life and about effort and about goals.

I don't think anyone glorifies or deifies or claims to love the Morse Family. We are respectful of being able to live well because of their good decisions and enjoy the physical beauty they have built and pleased that it is financially stable and successful for not only them and us but for a large group of people whose livelihoods depend on them and us.


what does cheesy mean - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+does+cheesy+mean&form=EDGHPT&qs=DA&cvid=67bb93ce2be544548e02c83a01a22f17&refig=15694ac1fde1401481c02a63c9e095f5&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AXK1c4IvZoNqPoPnS%21QRLOPGlUYuFiXeoi4*J0N9Sybz oucsE6IiyY99uGE4HmIeaPqPzT7rjSye7hBbS9QiOisoe60yKU DIFEQoin*1VCgR&plvar=0&PC=DCTS)

[ColdNoMore]

I believe those who have a knee-jerk reaction of attributing any criticism of The Developer to "jealousy"... have it absolutely backward.

Those who defer to, or defend, The Developer on almost everything, regardless of the topic or their actions...are actually the jealous ones.

Many of us who might criticize The Developer on occasion or express our opinion of what we think would make things better, but still love the majority of the things here and is why we choose to continue to live here, seem to instantly become the target of anger by suggesting that everything isn't always absolutely perfect.

It's almost like any criticism of Da Family, is received by some as if it were a direct personal attack...on someone's family member. :oops:

Why in the world is that?

Oftentimes, these same people who become so defensive also almost always automatically admire, or put on a pedestal, someone with a lot of money (provided they also meet certain other criteria)... regardless if that wealthy person exhibits honesty, ethics or integrity.

THAT worship of wealth and prosperity... is the "real jealousy."

And I'm not saying the family doesn't have those attributes, because I believe they probably do, but make no mistake as there is an obvious lack of understanding in some people that think The Developer has done everything they've done...due to some kind of altruism or out of the goodness of their hearts.

Hate to break the news to those types, but you are basically worshiping their ability to make money by building what they think will sell, the "extras" that help that selling and other decisions made purely out of a desire to milk every dollar from the development (a % of rent on businesses being an example of squeezing out every dollar).

And they've done a very admirable job of doing that, are reaping their well-earned rewards for such...so more power to them.

It's the American Dream...and they've reached it.

Those with the standard refrain of "you're just jealous of the money they've made" or the old standby "well, if you don't think everything is perfect, or you criticize something, you should just move," really need to take a step back and evaluate themselves...regarding why do you have such a visceral reaction to even the slightest criticism of The Developer?

Because in the final analysis, you personally...don't mean anything to them other than as a customer.

Their primary concern, as it rightfully is for ANY business, is making sure that their new houses (and any old ones that they list) and office/store space are filled by someone...anyone.

Be assured that the vast majority of the people on TOTV who may criticize something they don't like, or would like to change...are certainly NOT coming from a perspective of jealousy.

Any more than criticism of some ultra wealthy, mega-church leader...is coming from a position of jealousy.

It's a fact, that history is replete with examples of those who exhibited blind loyalty to a single person, or company, or organization... whose primary goal was to make money (or gain power).

And a lot of those stories...did not end well.

[ColdNoMore]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.
:thumbup:

I should have read your post first...as it would have saved me a lot of typing. LOL

You've basically said the same thing I just posted...but a lot more succinctly.

For that feat...my hat is off to you. :ho:

[photo1902]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

:clap2:

[skip0358]

Is the Developer making money? Sure he is that's why he's in business.Did he build a GREAT place to live ? Sure he did. They're trying to bring as many new places as they can into TV. As for Golf I don't use it. Pickleball not in many years after I blew the knee out. Rec centers maybe twice a year. Pool when we have company or HOT days and we want to cool off. All these items are here and they are available IF you wish to use them. I know I pay for them BUT I moved here because of what's here IF we wanted to use them. I've made MANY friends here, have great memories & a lot of fun. Coming from Long Island this place is a bargain and in a hell of a lot better condition then what Long Island was and how much money did the Politicians cost us us ? I lost cars and trucks in the pot holes up north. My taxes were more then double, my house is bigger down here, the Community is far superior to Long Island, it's less crowded for sure. That's why we chose to live here, my regret is we didn't do it when we first retired and waited till 2009. That's my story and I'm sticking ti it.

[Laker14]

When one sees the finished product, in this case, attractive villages, nice homes, and wealth beyond imagination, it's easy for folks to think that it was a simple, easy task to get there, with guaranteed success, and anyone could have done it. Folks who think like this look past the risks involved in land development, and the hard work, and imagination that went into it from the beginning, before money was rolling in, and before success was "guaranteed".
Last winter my golfing group took a trip up to Juliette Falls. I don't know all of the specifics, but there are lots of empty lots up there. In fact we were told that the clubhouse was once a big home that wound up in foreclosure and the golf course management bought it up.
As we drove around the place I thought about how this could have happened to the Morses, but it didn't. Their plan was better, or their execution was better, or something, but, to me it illustrated that their success was not always "guaranteed"...they pulled it off, and not everyone can do that.
Looking at the end product of success and wealth, it's easy for some to feel jealous of someone else's success.

[Shbullet]

I believe those who have a knee-jerk reaction of attributing any criticism of The Developer to "jealousy"... have it absolutely backward.

Those who defer to, or defend, The Developer on almost everything, regardless of the topic or their actions...are actually the jealous ones.

Many of us who might criticize The Developer on occasion or express our opinion of what we think would make things better, but still love the majority of the things here and is why we choose to continue to live here, seem to instantly become the target of anger by suggesting that everything isn't always absolutely perfect.

It's almost like any criticism of Da Family, is received by some as if it were a direct personal attack...on someone's family member. :oops:

Why in the world is that?

Oftentimes, these same people who become so defensive also almost always automatically admire, or put on a pedestal, someone with a lot of money (provided they also meet certain other criteria)... regardless if that wealthy person exhibits honesty, ethics or integrity.

THAT worship of wealth and prosperity... is the "real jealousy."

And I'm not saying the family doesn't have those attributes, because I believe they probably do, but make no mistake as there is an obvious lack of understanding in some people that think The Developer has done everything they've done...due to some kind of altruism or out of the goodness of their hearts.

Hate to break the news to those types, but you are basically worshiping their ability to make money by building what they think will sell, the "extras" that help that selling and other decisions made purely out of a desire to milk every dollar from the development (a % of rent on businesses being an example of squeezing out every dollar).

And they've done a very admirable job of doing that, are reaping their well-earned rewards for such...so more power to them.

It's the American Dream...and they've reached it.

Those with the standard refrain of "you're just jealous of the money they've made" or the old standby "well, if you don't think everything is perfect, or you criticize something, you should just move," really need to take a step back and evaluate themselves...regarding why do you have such a visceral reaction to even the slightest criticism of The Developer?

Because in the final analysis, you personally...don't mean anything to them other than as a customer.

Their primary concern, as it rightfully is for ANY business, is making sure that their new houses (and any old ones that they list) and office/store space are filled by someone...anyone.

Be assured that the vast majority of the people on TOTV who may criticize something they don't like, or would like to change...are certainly NOT coming from a perspective of jealousy.

Any more than criticism of some ultra wealthy, mega-church leader...is coming from a position of jealousy.

It's a fact, that history is replete with examples of those who exhibited blind loyalty to a single person, or company, or organization... whose primary goal was to make money (or gain power).

And a lot of those stories...did not end well.


Very well said. I wish i could have verbalized it so well in a few threads i participated in about 'the golf course conditions" It was if some thought the developer was under a personal attack and needed to be protected by his/her own personal national guard. Again...you've summarized very well...in my opinion

[Taltarzac725]

I totally disagree. I am financially very well off, and I am not at all jealous of the developer. But I think businesses have certain responsibilities particularly when you create a place for retired people who have sunk much of their savings and uprooted their lives to live in the place you have developed. The developer has created expectations and made promises, and they need to be held accountable. For example, this place is heavily advertised as a golf community, and the overall condition of the golf courses is sub-par. That is inexcusable in my opinion. There are other examples, (I'm thinking of the $40 million class action lawsuit where the Developer mis-used amenity fees) but the point is, the actions of the Developer have been less than stellar in certain situations and residents have a right to be unhappy and need to pay attention so they aren't taken advantage of.


And some of the dog parks in the Villages leave a lot to be desired. Even if The Villages Daily Sun hypes them up quite a bit.

[graciegirl]

Very well said. I wish i could have verbalized it so well in a few threads i participated in about 'the golf course conditions" It was if some thought the developer was under a personal attack and needed to be protected by his/her own personal national guard. Again...you've summarized very well...in my opinion

I think that it takes a while for new people to realize just how this place works. Many of these exchanges are based on getting to know more about just how the systems do function in The Villages and the differences about Florida in general.

Many of these debates or attacks or defenses are caused by whether the reader or writer is a positive or negative person, whether they are realistic in their expectations of most situations, and whether they are truly defining the problem accurately.

That said, some people are very unrealistic in their expectations and are quick to blame the Morse enterprise for just about everything. They expect the Morse enterprise to protect them from sinkholes, and rising costs and things far beyond their control, like the level of health care in Florida. Some truly do not understand the way supply and demand functions and expect an awful lot for not much money and expect businesses to appear because they want them to appear. They are quick to put blame where there is none and continue to recycle rumors and conspiracy theories and say that the price of rent of commercial properties is too high without investigating and comparing like systems in other parts of the country and the world.

There are other people who are too trusting of the developer and their business associates and believe they can do no wrong. There are those who see a great possibility that we could be taken advantage of and gouged and want to have a government system that is entirely run on votes in the traditional way. There are those that see that "the family" is changing roles and strengths and are not the same people with the same jobs that they used to have. They are worried about human frailties and human mistakes by the humans behind the curtain.

It is indeed a problem. And people will continue addressing it as they have done all of the problems before in their life.

[BobnBev]

Is the Developer making money? Sure he is that's why he's in business.Did he build a GREAT place to live ? Sure he did. They're trying to bring as many new places as they can into TV. As for Golf I don't use it. Pickleball not in many years after I blew the knee out. Rec centers maybe twice a year. Pool when we have company or HOT days and we want to cool off. All these items are here and they are available IF you wish to use them. I know I pay for them BUT I moved here because of what's here IF we wanted to use them. I've made MANY friends here, have great memories & a lot of fun. Coming from Long Island this place is a bargain and in a hell of a lot better condition then what Long Island was and how much money did the Politicians cost us us ? I lost cars and trucks in the pot holes up north. My taxes were more then double, my house is bigger down here, the Community is far superior to Long Island, it's less crowded for sure. That's why we chose to live here, my regret is we didn't do it when we first retired and waited till 2009. That's my story and I'm sticking ti it.

Geezzz, I could have written that.

[manaboutown]

It seems to me that the developers have pretty much followed the philosophy of nation builder Lee Kuan Yew who led Singapore through its incredible development. Charlie Munger recently paraphrased Lee Kuan Yew. “Figure out what works and do it.”

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It seems to me that the developers have pretty much followed the philosophy of nation builder Lee Kuan Yew who led Singapore through its incredible development. Charlie Munger recently paraphrased Lee Kuan Yew. “Figure out what works and do it.”

If that were actual truth, then the "debt of gratitude" would rightly belong to Lee Kuan Yew, not the Morses or Schwartz.

Just sayin...

[Velvet]

I do find the loyalty expressed by some people idealistic. Yes, TV is a beautiful, a well thought out community. But “The Developer” gets compensated very well for it. I don’t know any of the family personally so do they deserve admiration or loyalty? I don’t know. Mr Schwartz, on the other, my relatives knew him and yes he did deserve respect. He had character.

[Taltarzac725]

I do find the loyalty expressed by some people idealistic. Yes, TV is a beautiful, a well thought out community. But “The Developer” gets compensated very well for it. I don’t know any of the family personally so do they deserve admiration or loyalty? I don’t know. Mr Schwartz, on the other, my relatives knew him and yes he did deserve respect. He had character.

Mr. Schwartz sounds like the dreamer who had the idea and some of the more practical members of his family but his dream into reality with a lot of luck, hard work, and very probable political connections. You do need the luck though.

[Velvet]

Actually, my impression was, he was a simple man from a nondescript background. But he did have smarts, and probably luck... and character.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

It seems to me that the developers have pretty much followed the philosophy of nation builder Lee Kuan Yew who led Singapore through its incredible development. Charlie Munger recently paraphrased Lee Kuan Yew. “Figure out what works and do it.”

If that were actual truth, then the "debt of gratitude" would rightly belong to Lee Kuan Yew, not the Morses or Schwartz.

Just sayin...

I do find the loyalty expressed by some people idealistic. Yes, TV is a beautiful, a well thought out community. But “The Developer” gets compensated very well for it. I don’t know any of the family personally so do they deserve admiration or loyalty? I don’t know. Mr Schwartz, on the other, my relatives knew him and yes he did deserve respect. He had character.

Mr. Schwartz sounds like the dreamer who had the idea and some of the more practical members of his family but his dream into reality with a lot of luck, hard work, and very probable political connections. You do need the luck though.

Actually, my impression was, he was a simple man from a nondescript background. But he did have smarts, and probably luck... and character.


If you have the pleasure of speaking to an old-time Villages' employee who worked here when Mr. Schwartz was alive, they will tell you he was a kind and personable man.

He would go to his pool on the historic side and interact with the residents. Employees knew him and he knew them by name. You will probably never hear a negative word about him.

Mr. Schwartz was visible. He was not secluded in an unknown office location somewhere with no contact with the outside Villages world.

Sadly, there no longer is a personal touch here. TV has become too large and the Morse family is concentrating more on development than being visible. The Villages today is a business and is run like one. While we all benefit from all the terrific things which are offered, we are paying for these things which is not unlike living in any other PUD anywhere else.

[Love2Swim]

If you have the pleasure of speaking to an old-time Villages' employee who worked here when Mr. Schwartz was alive, they will tell you he was a kind and personable man.

He would go to his pool on the historic side and interact with the residents. Employees knew him and he knew them by name. You will probably never hear a negative word about him.

Mr. Schwartz was visible. He was not secluded in an unknown office location somewhere with no contact with the outside Villages world.

Sadly, there no longer is a personal touch here. TV has become too large and the Morse family is concentrating more on development than being visible. The Villages today is a business and is run like one. While we all benefit from all the terrific things which are offered, we are paying for these things which is not unlike living in any other PUD anywhere else.

Exactly.

[graciegirl]

If you have the pleasure of speaking to an old-time Villages' employee who worked here when Mr. Schwartz was alive, they will tell you he was a kind and personable man.

He would go to his pool on the historic side and interact with the residents. Employees knew him and he knew them by name. You will probably never hear a negative word about him.

Mr. Schwartz was visible. He was not secluded in an unknown office location somewhere with no contact with the outside Villages world.

Sadly, there no longer is a personal touch here. TV has become too large and the Morse family is concentrating more on development than being visible. The Villages today is a business and is run like one. While we all benefit from all the terrific things which are offered, we are paying for these things which is not unlike living in any other PUD anywhere else.

Those who have studied human behavior seem to agree that some people are outgoing and some people are not.

The Villages is definitely a business. And a successful one. We do choose to live here and pay for the things we enjoy.

Harold Schwartz was a stereotypical salesman. Gary Morse was a good businessman and not in most ways interested in public acclaim.

Now we have some in the next generation who take after Sharon Morse and are more on stage; Megan Boone, her granddaughter from Black List fame and the kids who are running the Sharon too.

Some people who live here have been involved in business in their past and may be more interested to see a good business model succeed. Some who had been educators or who worked for the government and have not been involved with business may not be as interested.

It takes all kinds to make a world. No one is forced, coerced or oversold to live here. Once we are here it grows on some of us more than others.

[SERENITY52]

The negativity is not directed at the Developers/TV. It's directed at the children of the Developers. It is believed by many that the current administration does not have The Villages residents best interests at heart.

[yesi3putt2]

Mr. Schwartz sounds like the dreamer who had the idea and some of the more practical members of his family but his dream into reality with a lot of luck, hard work, and very probable political connections. You do need the luck though.

I'd rather be lucky than good anytime

[Marilyn RIccio]

On 2/15/18 there was a catastrophic event on an easement located between 17086 and 17092 SE 79th Mclawren Terrace The Villages. Neighbors by that location requested assistance in writing to the developer requesting any assistance he could give in assisting to repair the problem. The original home owners sold their dream retirement homes to a company that fixed I buy sick homes who has further let the neighborhood down by not fixing the homes. The hole on the easement destroyed both homes, as well as, the street in front of the homes. The Developer has all the resources to fix the problem with the easement, as well as, the homes. The developer originally had the pipe placed in the easement which failed on 2/15/18 resulting in the catastrophic event. The Neighbors and others requested the developer buy the two damaged homes he originally built and fix the problem that resulted from the easement he placed between the homes that resulted in failure and a catastrophic event destroying two retirees homes, as well as, permanently damaging a neighborhood. Mclawren terrace has been closed and neighbors living there do not feel it is the Friendliest home town because since the event The Developer has refused to send his brilliant workmen to repair the problem. How would you feel if your retirement neighborhood and investment was destroyed and the person that built it that had all the resources in the world to fix it has simply said NO!

[davem4616]

When I reflect on the insights, the planning, the strategies, the tactics and the values fostered and promoted by the developer I am both amazed and thankful that someone had this vision and was able to pull it off. I'm not sure that I could name another city or town this size that comes close to being run as efficiently and offers the quality of life that The Villages does. Yet people complain. Why? Often it comes down to differences in personal values. Some of us were raised in an environment of 'glass half full', other's grew up looking at everything as 'half empty'. Some of us naturally come at things from a place of abundance, others come at things from a place of scarcity. The bottom line is that we all have a choice...do we listen to the complainers and allow them to drag us down to their level of negativity, or do we ignore them and enjoy the lifestyle! I try to live life like that old song Johnny Mercier wrote...accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative and don't mess with "Mister In between." My guess is that being able to stand on the sidelines and complain somehow fills an inner need for some people.

[dewilson58]

On 2/15/18 there was a catastrophic event on an easement located between 17086 and 17092 SE 79th Mclawren Terrace The Villages. Neighbors by that location requested assistance in writing to the developer requesting any assistance he could give in assisting to repair the problem. The original home owners sold their dream retirement homes to a company that fixed I buy sick homes who has further let the neighborhood down by not fixing the homes. The hole on the easement destroyed both homes, as well as, the street in front of the homes. The Developer has all the resources to fix the problem with the easement, as well as, the homes. The developer originally had the pipe placed in the easement which failed on 2/15/18 resulting in the catastrophic event. The Neighbors and others requested the developer buy the two damaged homes he originally built and fix the problem that resulted from the easement he placed between the homes that resulted in failure and a catastrophic event destroying two retirees homes, as well as, permanently damaging a neighborhood. Mclawren terrace has been closed and neighbors living there do not feel it is the Friendliest home town because since the event The Developer has refused to send his brilliant workmen to repair the problem. How would you feel if your retirement neighborhood and investment was destroyed and the person that built it that had all the resources in the world to fix it has simply said NO!


An easement can not cause the problem, an easement is a written property restriction.



Homeowners own easement property.


Aren't the "pipes", storm water pipes???

[VillageMomma]

People forget that for the developer, The Villages is a business. What can get any better than living in The Villages. People that complain will be the same ones who get to heaven and say, God I thought it would be better than this.

[dennisgavin]

Been here 3 years and still loving it! My only complaint is about the golf courses not being overseeded. BUT I am new to golf and don't know as much about course maintenance as others may. But based on some golf courses I have played outside TH I think there is room for improvement. I need a little cushion for the ball to sit on so I can get under the darn thing!! ;o)

[Ron2514]

[QUOTE=dewilson58;1649989]Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:[I have significant respect for the family and do not begrudge them one bit for their success. But here is a thought regarding ill will toward the developer: The Villages is a golfing community and over the past two years, the golf courses' conditions have declined. I think this is due to the huge increase in play as The Villages grows in the number of golfers and the number of championship courses remains the same. One solution I can think of is to push for a style of play that helps reduce the amount of time the golf carts are on the fairways. If we could start with a strict 90 degree rule, enforced by the Ambassadors and golf shop pros, it would go a long way to keep the fairways more playable. Our greens are generally very good but the fairways need help in staying thick and providing a good lie.]

[PJackpot]

Some people just like to **** and moan, others have a deep need to be in charge of something, and some see themselves as the center of the universe with a need to have all their ideas acted on, and some actually go so far as to behave as self appointed enforcers. In any population, you're going to have a minority of these types of individuals, and they're usually the most vocal, because everyone else is busy enjoying themselves. With a retirement population this size, it may seem like there are a lot of complainers, but my experience is the overwhelming majority of residents here, support the developer and appreciate what they have created. My philosophy is stay healthy, active, happy and engage others. Ignore the unhappy minority.

[dionline]

We've been here almost 7 years and rarely leave - this place has almost everything we're looking for. No you can't do everything you'd like to the outside of your home - and that's good! It protects OUR property values....don't like it? Move. Does this place have everything YOU'D like? No? Don't complain - either start a club here for others who may like to join or find what you need off-campus but don't complain...move. I hate when I hear my coworkers (who live here) complaining about TV, I always tell them, 'Feel free to move'. But they never do. I think it's safe to say, some people just like to complain. Sadly, it seems the complainers are always the loudest, though.

[2BNTV]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

As usual, a well thought out post!

:bigbow: :bigbow: :bigbow:

[patbbb]

Do some posters actually dislike the developer or are they simply tired of slavish devotion to the Morse family and the refusal to hear a bad word about them on the part of some other posters?

Is it negative for someone to remark that they found the evening with the developer to be boring, or not to like The Sun, or to wish for different/more amenities? People can enjoy living here and admire all that's been accomplished but still have a few gripes.

Telling everyone who has a complaint that they're free to leave is the real negativity, IMO.

Pretty much on target. TV, while still a good place to retire, is not the same as when many of us moved here 15 or more years back. Harold Schwarz & Gary Morse were far more interested in residents well being than those running the show today. That's what made TV what it is, along with the promotion of residents bringing friends & relatives here. It also resulted in the family's huge wealth. I believe many of those who reject any criticism of the developer take same as a personal insult thinking it reflects on their choice of TV. To tell anyone who posts a negative comment to move is truly rude, dumb and negative. Virtually all of us simply want to make this a better place. I conclude by reminding there was a reason for the $40 million lawsuit and other protests over the years!

[ColdNoMore]

Pretty much on target. TV, while still a good place to retire, is not the same as when many of us moved here 15 or more years back. Harold Schwarz & Gary Morse were far more interested in residents well being than those running the show today. That's what made TV what it is, along with the promotion of residents bringing friends & relatives here. It also resulted in the family's huge wealth. I believe many of those who reject any criticism of the developer take same as a personal insult thinking it reflects on their choice of TV. To tell anyone who posts a negative comment to move is truly rude, dumb and negative. Virtually all of us simply want to make this a better place. I conclude by reminding there was a reason for the $40 million lawsuit and other protests over the years!

Excellent post! :bigbow:


Pretty much what I said...back in post #43. :shrug:

[sallybowron]

IMHO

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept? - because it supplies a nice, easy life-style

Why do other people appear to want to be negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer? - jealousy

I agree with Arctic Fox's post completely. I don't understand why people are so jealous, they could get some unused land and create a lifestyle any way they wanted it and they too could be billionaires (maybe). As many people mentioned there is no place around that can compare to TV. The only thing missing from TV is my freinds and family being close by :( For me that is a big thing.

[Marilyn RIccio]

Yes, it is true the home owner owns the easement, however, in this case the Stormwater pipe originally installed within the easement collapsed causing the destruction of two homes, the road, and property values in the neighborhood. When most people buy their retirement home in the villages they are not told about what is in the easement. I doubt the easement is ever discussed by any realtor to a buyer. I hope this does not happen to others as the result is devastating.

[Marilyn RIccio]

An easement can not cause the problem, an easement is a written property restriction.



Homeowners own easement property.


Aren't the "pipes", storm water pipes???

You are so correct the easement is owned by the homeowner. Sadly the Stormwater pipe in that easement collapsed causing catastrophic destruction to both Retirement homes, the road, and the property values in the neighborhood. No one has repaired the homes since 2/15/18. The neighbors foolishly turned in total desperation to the current developer in hopes he had the mercy of The Villagers Founder. Hope such an event does not happen to others As it did to two homeowners on Mclawren terrace both in their eighties. Both left their dream retirement homes, as well as, the friendliest home town.

[Barborv]

To think that this place started as a little rv park. I think the family/developers built a place that even they enjoy living in. They captured most of the elements any person could ask for. But people also have to realize that this is a business for them. Bottom line

[patbbb]

We've been here almost 7 years and rarely leave - this place has almost everything we're looking for. No you can't do everything you'd like to the outside of your home - and that's good! It protects OUR property values....don't like it? Move. Does this place have everything YOU'D like? No? Don't complain - either start a club here for others who may like to join or find what you need off-campus but don't complain...move. I hate when I hear my coworkers (who live here) complaining about TV, I always tell them, 'Feel free to move'. But they never do. I think it's safe to say, some people just like to complain. Sadly, it seems the complainers are always the loudest, though.

Are you really that afraid of of neighbors having opinions other than yours? While you may be in lock step with the developer, many of us are trying to make TV a better place and take exception to some of the negative changes or shortcomings. As I've stated before, there was good reason for the $40 million lawsuit and other protests by those not wearing blinders or afraid that we didn't buy in a 'perfect' community. Try reading back issues of the bulletin at the poa4us.org website for enlightenment of happenings before you arrived.

Take a look around and ask why so many have bought villas in north central Florida vs expensive larger homes. It could be they have limited finances in retirement and moving would be a hardship or impossibility. Improving the community is the proper course, not moving. Perhaps you are the one who should consider relocating if you cannot stand criticism of your cherished community.

[Velvet]

Just a thought, when there were 500 residents with Mr Schwartz etc it was easy to know people personally, like a principal would know all the students in a school that size. When you have over 100,000 residents then it becomes an impersonal business.

[patbbb]

Just a thought, when there were 500 residents with Mr Schwartz etc it was easy to know people personally, like a principal would know all the students in a school that size. When you have over 100,000 residents then it becomes an impersonal business.
Fully agree. However, could TV have morphed into something that was not intended, or has it grown too large?

[rrb48310]

It seems to me that both viewpoints have merit and I enjoy hearing from differing viewpoints. There seems to me to be no doubt that the Schwartz, Morse team had a vision for a retirement community that no one else was able to realize. Because of their vision they have built an enterprise that has attracted some 130,000 mostly happy people and enriched the family immensely. Does this mean that they are above criticism or perfect? I think not! They are like most people, they have their flaws and their blindspots, but unlike most people, they have been wildly successful, and right far more often than they are wrong. I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.

:beer3: The Nail Has Been Hit On The Head!

I think the “Developer” does/has listen(ed) and improved, just compare how traffic flow has changed from in the “North”. What a pain getting through the gates on Morris north of 466 during busy/rush hour time. South of 466 gates don’t slow traffic cause there at the entrances to the villages. Then there is how golf car trails/roads are separated from vehicle traffic.

There is more to be done, and ya can’t please everyone, but The Villages is like no other. I’ve looked at a lot of other communities and this is “the happiest place on earth” for seniors it is Disneyland.

And it don’t cost ya over $100 day just to visit or $10 bucks for a hotdog, like the big rat in Orlando. Now that’s GREEDY (is that negative enough?).

[justjim]

My opinion is that at the macro level most people support TV concepts...in fact most people give high praise to it.

My opinion is also that what we refer to as negative comments comes much more at the micro level....things that directly affect them....long lines at the pickle ball courts, some road conditions, classes too full, and one that really is stepping into a hot bed by mentioning is the condition of the executives courses.

So in summary, I think the positives towards TV concepts are at a macro level and most of the negatives comes from the micro level. Some would equate those negatives as being negative towards tv concepts and the developer personally when in reality they are not at all.
:bigbow: :bigbow:
From an academic point of view, you are spot on.

[ChrissyI1]

I think the Villages is a wonderful place to live! Nothing will ever be perfect and I feel there are many here who just always find something to complain about. If you don’t like the way the developers are doing things - then perhaps you should live elsewhere.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

We've been here almost 7 years and rarely leave - this place has almost everything we're looking for. No you can't do everything you'd like to the outside of your home - and that's good! It protects OUR property values....don't like it? Move. Does this place have everything YOU'D like? No? Don't complain - either start a club here for others who may like to join or find what you need off-campus but don't complain...move. I hate when I hear my coworkers (who live here) complaining about TV, I always tell them, 'Feel free to move'. But they never do. I think it's safe to say, some people just like to complain. Sadly, it seems the complainers are always the loudest, though.


I actually resent when someone says that if you don't like something about where you live that person should move!

That kind of response is not sensible or logical and I find it rude and uncalled for.

First of all, not many people have the wherewithal to move anyway.
Financially, they cannot afford to do that and in addition, regardless of any complaint they may have, they have roots here.

The response that someone should move is sarcastic and does not solve a problem or an issue.
If a resident has a complaint, and some are very valid, if you can't respond logically or offer something positive, then don't!:Screen_of_Death:

[Northwoods]

I'm not at all jealous of The Developer. I give them total credit for having the vision and continuing to build a fabulous retirement community. They've taken the risk and they deserve the wealth that comes with that risk.
What frustrates me is that people want "The Developer" to fix any issue, even if The Developer has nothing to do with an issue. Examples - The Villages Regional Hospital, Executive golf courses, potholes in the road, etc. It is so much easier to demand The Developer "fix it" instead of figuring out who is ultimately responsible and addressing concerns to that entity. People feel that The Developer is rich, so they should fix everything. If not "The Developer is only concerned about making money." People need to understand what The Developer is responsible for and what they're not responsible for... and they need to direct their frustrations to the right entity.

[Shbullet]

I actually resent when someone says that if you don't like something about where you live that person should move!

That kind of response is not sensible or logical and I find it rude and uncalled for.

First of all, not many people have the wherewithal to move anyway.
Financially, they cannot afford to do that and in addition, regardless of any complaint they may have, they have roots here.

The response that someone should move is sarcastic and does not solve a problem or an issue.
If a resident has a complaint, and some are very valid, if you can't respond logically or offer something positive, then don't!:Screen_of_Death:

Well said MC

[Midnight Cowgirl]

On 2/15/18 there was a catastrophic event on an easement located between 17086 and 17092 SE 79th Mclawren Terrace The Villages. Neighbors by that location requested assistance in writing to the developer requesting any assistance he could give in assisting to repair the problem. The original home owners sold their dream retirement homes to a company that fixed I buy sick homes who has further let the neighborhood down by not fixing the homes. The hole on the easement destroyed both homes, as well as, the street in front of the homes. The Developer has all the resources to fix the problem with the easement, as well as, the homes. The developer originally had the pipe placed in the easement which failed on 2/15/18 resulting in the catastrophic event. The Neighbors and others requested the developer buy the two damaged homes he originally built and fix the problem that resulted from the easement he placed between the homes that resulted in failure and a catastrophic event destroying two retirees homes, as well as, permanently damaging a neighborhood. Mclawren terrace has been closed and neighbors living there do not feel it is the Friendliest home town because since the event The Developer has refused to send his brilliant workmen to repair the problem. How would you feel if your retirement neighborhood and investment was destroyed and the person that built it that had all the resources in the world to fix it has simply said NO!

You are so correct the easement is owned by the homeowner. Sadly the Stormwater pipe in that easement collapsed causing catastrophic destruction to both Retirement homes, the road, and the property values in the neighborhood. No one has repaired the homes since 2/15/18. The neighbors foolishly turned in total desperation to the current developer in hopes he had the mercy of The Villagers Founder. Hope such an event does not happen to others As it did to two homeowners on Mclawren terrace both in their eighties. Both left their dream retirement homes, as well as, the friendliest home town.


I am not very well versed on the sinkhole situation in Calumet Grove but what I do know and what you have described is an out-and-out tragedy.

Because of what happened to these two homes, the residents there who want to sell their home cannot do so. The owners of both homes being in their 80s only make this tragedy even worse.

Adding insult to injury, that it's been well over a year since the sinkhole happened, the fact that the Morse family, et al, have seemingly turned their back on the entire situation is reprehensible.
Unless there is a piece of this puzzle I don't understand or am not privy to, it sounds as though the lack of attention to that Village is nothing short of disgraceful.

Is there a reason this situation still exists???
Someone must know the real story as to why the developer has not stepped up to the plate.

[Two Bills]

Someone must know the real story as to why the developer has not stepped up to the plate.


Precedent?

[billlaur]

this place is HEAVEN ON EARTH....:clap2::clap2:

[dewilson58]

I am not very well versed on the sinkhole situation in Calumet Grove but what I do know and what you have described is an out-and-out tragedy.

Because of what happened to these two homes, the residents there who want to sell their home cannot do so. The owners of both homes being in their 80s only make this tragedy even worse.

Adding insult to injury, that it's been well over a year since the sinkhole happened, the fact that the Morse family, et al, have seemingly turned their back on the entire situation is reprehensible.
Unless there is a piece of this puzzle I don't understand or am not privy to, it sounds as though the lack of attention to that Village is nothing short of disgraceful.

Is there a reason this situation still exists???
Someone must know the real story as to why the developer has not stepped up to the plate.






Go check the Online Rag "News Site". There are numerous stories. Sinkhole caused damage, to houses and pipes; Houses sold to investment trust; road can not be repaired until houses/lots are stabilized; blah, blah, blah.

[npwalters]

Do some posters actually dislike the developer or are they simply tired of slavish devotion to the Morse family and the refusal to hear a bad word about them on the part of some other posters?

Is it negative for someone to remark that they found the evening with the developer to be boring, or not to like The Sun, or to wish for different/more amenities? People can enjoy living here and admire all that's been accomplished but still have a few gripes.

Telling everyone who has a complaint that they're free to leave is the real negativity, IMO.

My thoughts exactly. I like it here, respect the developers for the financial risks they take, but not so blinded and slavishly devoted that I can't see when it is clear money is driving a decision that detracts from our lifestyle.

[ColdNoMore]

I am not very well versed on the sinkhole situation in Calumet Grove but what I do know and what you have described is an out-and-out tragedy.

Because of what happened to these two homes, the residents there who want to sell their home cannot do so. The owners of both homes being in their 80s only make this tragedy even worse.

Adding insult to injury, that it's been well over a year since the sinkhole happened, the fact that the Morse family, et al, have seemingly turned their back on the entire situation is reprehensible.
Unless there is a piece of this puzzle I don't understand or am not privy to, it sounds as though the lack of attention to that Village is nothing short of disgraceful.

Is there a reason this situation still exists???
Someone must know the real story as to why the developer has not stepped up to the plate.

My thoughts exactly. I like it here, respect the developers for the financial risks they take, but not so blinded and slavishly devoted that I can't see when it is clear money is driving a decision that detracts from our lifestyle.

:thumbup:

[graciegirl]

I am not very well versed on the sinkhole situation in Calumet Grove but what I do know and what you have described is an out-and-out tragedy.

Because of what happened to these two homes, the residents there who want to sell their home cannot do so. The owners of both homes being in their 80s only make this tragedy even worse.

Adding insult to injury, that it's been well over a year since the sinkhole happened, the fact that the Morse family, et al, have seemingly turned their back on the entire situation is reprehensible.
Unless there is a piece of this puzzle I don't understand or am not privy to, it sounds as though the lack of attention to that Village is nothing short of disgraceful.

Is there a reason this situation still exists???
Someone must know the real story as to why the developer has not stepped up to the plate.

Everyone should be adequately insured against loss due to things like sinkholes, earthquakes and lightning strikes. They happen quite unexpectedly and are blamed on many things.

The builder of the homes in ANY area is not responsible for such things.

The owners of the homes completely ruined by the sinkhole passed their homes to a company that has tied up things. Most people in their eighties here well manage to take care of things and do not need pity.

And they are capable of moving and usually can so do if they wish.

[manaboutown]

Everyone should be adequately insured against loss due to things like sinkholes, earthquakes and lightning strikes. They happen quite unexpectedly and are blamed on many things.

The builder of the homes in ANY area is not responsible for such things.

The owners of the homes completely ruined by the sinkhole passed their homes to a company that has tied up things. Most people in their eighties here well manage to take care of things and do not need pity.

And they are capable of moving and usually can so do if they wish.

According to this article human activity can lead to sinkholes although most are naturally occurring. Sinkhole activity within The Villages is specifically addressed.

"Man-made development, it turns out, is the most persistent factor for increased sinkholes. Earth-moving equipment scrapes away protective layers of soil; parking lots and paved roads divert rainwater to new infiltration points; the weight of new buildings presses down on weak spots; buried infrastructure can lead to leaking pipes; and, perhaps most of all, the pumping of groundwater disrupts the delicate water table that keeps the karst stable. “Our preliminary research indicates that the risk of sinkholes is 11 times greater in developed areas than undeveloped ones,” says George Veni, the executive director of the National Cave and Karst Research Institute who conducted a field study in Sinkhole Alley."


Read more: The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic
|
Science
| Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-behind-floridas-sinkhole-epidemic-180969158/#0uXaLLZy1tbSWWIf.99)

[graciegirl]

According to this article human activity can lead to sinkholes although most are naturally occurring. Sinkhole activity within The Villages is specifically addressed.

"Man-made development, it turns out, is the most persistent factor for increased sinkholes. Earth-moving equipment scrapes away protective layers of soil; parking lots and paved roads divert rainwater to new infiltration points; the weight of new buildings presses down on weak spots; buried infrastructure can lead to leaking pipes; and, perhaps most of all, the pumping of groundwater disrupts the delicate water table that keeps the karst stable. “Our preliminary research indicates that the risk of sinkholes is 11 times greater in developed areas than undeveloped ones,” says George Veni, the executive director of the National Cave and Karst Research Institute who conducted a field study in Sinkhole Alley."


Read more: The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic
|
Science
| Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-behind-floridas-sinkhole-epidemic-180969158/#0uXaLLZy1tbSWWIf.99)

That is quite likely true. We have lived in Central Florida for almost thirteen years now and almost every year there has been a sinkhole in The Villages. I think less than five have badly harmed any houses and all of them up until now were repaired and are now lived in by someone.

I have always been told that the area in North Central Florida is more prone to sinkholes than the Panhandle or the southernmost part of the peninsula. Florida is growing quickly in population and in building and is now the third most populous state in the U.S., behind California and Texas.

No one here in The Villages has ever been physically harmed by a sinkhole thank goodness, but they do scare people.

Are you still thinking about living here Manabouttown?

Here are several Florida sinkhole maps from 2018. Florida Map Of Sinkholes | Florida Map 2018 (https://floridamap2018.blogspot.com/2017/09/florida-map-of-sinkholes.html)

[Boomer]

On 2/15/18 there was a catastrophic event on an easement located between 17086 and 17092 SE 79th Mclawren Terrace The Villages. Neighbors by that location requested assistance in writing to the developer requesting any assistance he could give in assisting to repair the problem. The original home owners sold their dream retirement homes to a company that fixed I buy sick homes who has further let the neighborhood down by not fixing the homes. The hole on the easement destroyed both homes, as well as, the street in front of the homes. The Developer has all the resources to fix the problem with the easement, as well as, the homes. The developer originally had the pipe placed in the easement which failed on 2/15/18 resulting in the catastrophic event. The Neighbors and others requested the developer buy the two damaged homes he originally built and fix the problem that resulted from the easement he placed between the homes that resulted in failure and a catastrophic event destroying two retirees homes, as well as, permanently damaging a neighborhood. Mclawren terrace has been closed and neighbors living there do not feel it is the Friendliest home town because since the event The Developer has refused to send his brilliant workmen to repair the problem. How would you feel if your retirement neighborhood and investment was destroyed and the person that built it that had all the resources in the world to fix it has simply said NO!

Yes, it is true the home owner owns the easement, however, in this case the Stormwater pipe originally installed within the easement collapsed causing the destruction of two homes, the road, and property values in the neighborhood. When most people buy their retirement home in the villages they are not told about what is in the easement. I doubt the easement is ever discussed by any realtor to a buyer. I hope this does not happen to others as the result is devastating.


Thank you, Marilyn Riccio. I have been following that situation, off and on, for a while. Those people have to feel trapped and heavily stressed. I have the ability (or maybe it’s a curse) to put myself in another’s place and give thought to how they must feel. (Sometimes I wish I were callous and self-absorbed. But I do not think my personality will change after having it for oh so many decades.)

Many people in TV have mortgage-free homes. A lot of them have paid cash up front, having sold their houses up north for a tidy profit. While there is a definite comfort zone in having no mortgage, it means that the homeowner is the bank, the whole bank, and nothing but
the bank — the risk-carrier.

Each time I hear about a sinkhole, I wonder how Citizen’s bank would respond if such devastating loss landed with them because they were holding the mortgage, owning the house. (Just a thought. I have been told that I often think outside the box.)


Everyone shoould be adequately insured against loss due to things like sinkholes, earthquakes and lightning strikes. They happen quite unexpectedly and are blamed on many things.

The builder of the homes in ANY area is not responsible for such things.

The owners of the homes completely ruined by the sinkhole passed their homes to a company that has tied up things. Most people in their eighties here well manage to take care of things and do not need pity.

And they are capable of moving and usually can so do if they wish.


Gracie, if I may respectfully take issue with your first sentence above about adequate insurance, I must point out that there is an enormous difference in the aftermath of the natural occurrences you use in your examples.

First of all, those of us who have been around here for a long time know that insuring for sinkholes has a checkered past. Additionally, and especially, the glaring difference is that owners of sinkhole properties, no matter how insured, seem to never be whole again. Insurance for earthquakes and lightning strikes — also tornadoes and hurricanes and such — can put the homeowner back in place in a house all back together and all is well. But when the loss is the very ground beneath the home, it is a devastating and on going loss — nothing is ever the same.

According to this article human activity can lead to sinkholes although most are naturally occurring. Sinkhole activity within The Villages is specifically addressed.

"Man-made development, it turns out, is the most persistent factor for increased sinkholes. Earth-moving equipment scrapes away protective layers of soil; parking lots and paved roads divert rainwater to new infiltration points; the weight of new buildings presses down on weak spots; buried infrastructure can lead to leaking pipes; and, perhaps most of all, the pumping of groundwater disrupts the delicate water table that keeps the karst stable. “Our preliminary research indicates that the risk of sinkholes is 11 times greater in developed areas than undeveloped ones,” says George Veni, the executive director of the National Cave and Karst Research Institute who conducted a field study in Sinkhole Alley."


Read more: The Science Behind Florida’s Sinkhole Epidemic
|
Science
| Smithsonian (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/science-behind-floridas-sinkhole-epidemic-180969158/#0uXaLLZy1tbSWWIf.99)

Hey, manaboutown. I have read about this over the years. Geology was my favorite science class, second place was botany. (Yes. I know. Sheldon Cooper would not consider them to be real science. :) )

Also, I must compliment you are you choice of sources for this one.

- - - -

And, another thing, I find the go-to grasping of the word ’jealousy’ by the die-hard, all-or-nothing developer defenders to be tedious and ridiculous.

I have often, in posts here, compared owning in TV to be like owning stock in a corporation. The Lifestyle to be enjoyed is like a dividend paid by the stock. Dividend investors, by their very nature, pay close attention to what is happening to the investment itself and, of course, to the dividend. Is the dividend increasing or being cut or holding steady? The decision to buy or sell said stock lies with the owner — not with someone spewing the old, “Don’t let the door hit you in the backside” cliche.

We felt as if the investment in TV was a pretty safe one. That’s all. I have no need to dance in a conga line around the developer who does not know me any more than the CEO of any other company knows me. It’s a business — merely a business — on both ends. (my personal view)

Oh well, while I am taking up an entire page, quoting and commenting, I might as well throw in something else:

To Jazeula and Midnight Cowgirl,

I really like your posts. Your writing is insightful, smart, with a sparkle, and just the right amount of sass. :)

Sincerely,
Boomer

[graciegirl]

../

[graciegirl]

It is my understanding that people were taking advantage of the insurance and blaming every crack and fine line on sinkholes so that the insurance was being swamped. (and scammed)

Here is one of several insurance companies explaining it. The two counties most affected were Hernando and Pasco.

Just FYI, it has been several years ago now. All people can get sinkhole coverage that I know.

Sinkhole Insurance in Florida: The Saga (https://www.williamspa.com/insurance-articles/the-saga-of-sinkhole-insurance-in-florida/)

And...….Sometimes our discussions on here turn into whose on who's side.

Many people now reading this who are in their eighties are managing many things, and living a full life here and some on our street have moved. They don't need pity.

[It's Hot There]

Reading all the off topic sinkhole posts........why are they still on this tread. It was a good thread.


:ohdear:

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Reading all the off topic sinkhole posts........why are they still on this tread. It was a good thread.


:ohdear:


And it still is!

:bigbow:

[It's Hot There]

Not really.

The thread was to better understand why some posters are "always" negative........why do they have the need to post.

Some of the posters in that category are just posting negative comments, not explaining why the negativity.

The sinkhole postings are off topic.

Oh well.

[Boomer]

Reading all the off topic sinkhole posts........why are they still on this tread. It was a good thread.


:ohdear:

May I say that I respectfully disagree.

Here’s why:

The OP was asking for the “whys” of opinions of the developer.

Opinions do not and should not have to be an “Us vs.Them” but too often that is the case. No discussion. No specifics. Just a team-picking, wagon-circling, same ol’ same ol’ scripted back and forth. z-z-z-z-z

But it is much more interesting when opinions are multi-faceted with specifics to back up reasons for our thinking.

There are many wonderful things about TV, many things we like. We bought.

But I have been around long enough to know there are some other things that are not all lollipops and roses. Those are mostly specific things that affect only some of the people — so I guess others must figure it’s not happening to them — so OK. Don’t want to think or hear about it — la-la-la-la. Or maybe just don’t care, as long as it does not directly affect them. Others feel differently.

When topics veer into territory that some do not find pleasing to what they want to read about the developer, well — the thread often ends up directed into getting closed.

The sinkhole segue that you are wondering about evolved from an opinion on how the developer could have, perhaps, assisted the homeowners with a specific sinkhole mess that has happened here. There are those who think that had the developer “come through” to help, that would have been appropriate and definitely admirable — in the opinions of some — me, included.

Anyway, to make a long story longer, the sinkhole discussion is on topic because it is about an opinion of something that happened with the developer. Also, a sinkhole is devastating and the property is never the same. Help would have been a lovely gesture with probably a very decent intangible return on the investment in helping. Just my opinion.

[dewilson58]

Not really.

The thread was to better understand why some posters are "always" negative........why do they have the need to post.

Some of the posters in that category are just posting negative comments, not explaining why the negativity.

The sinkhole postings are off topic.

Oh well.




I H T


Welcome to ToTV..............posters twist to beat something to death (ie: their negativity towards the Developer) They try to make it the topic.


The thread:
Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???




Not about opinions, not about sinkholes as some may twist the thread to.


The thread: Just wondering why some posters are "always" negative.


Jealous (or a related vein) appears to be the dominate "why".


The Developer and family are not perfect. No one thinks they are perfect.


Keep reading and posting.



You are right...........It's hot.


:)

[graciegirl]

I H T


Welcome to ToTV..............posters twist to beat something to death (ie: their negativity towards the Developer) They try to make it the topic.


The thread:
Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???




Not about opinions, not about sinkholes as some may twist the thread to.


The thread: Just wondering why some posters are "always" negative.


Jealous (or a related vein) appears to be the dominate "why".


The Developer and family are not perfect. No one thinks they are perfect.


Keep reading and posting.



You are right...........It's hot.


:)


It is hot. Very hot. Makes folks grumpy. Brings back people to post on here who no longer live here. There are many agenda's on any online forum. Some are hidden and some are not.

Everyone, including me, thinks THEY are the innocent one, showing others the error of their ways.

The smartest thing my mother ever said is

LEAST SAID. SOONEST MENDED.

Will try to do that for a few days.

[CFrance]

I H T


Welcome to ToTV..............posters twist to beat something to death (ie: their negativity towards the Developer) They try to make it the topic.


The thread:
Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???




Not about opinions, not about sinkholes as some may twist the thread to.


The thread: Just wondering why some posters are "always" negative.


Jealous (or a related vein) appears to be the dominate "why".


The Developer and family are not perfect. No one thinks they are perfect.


Keep reading and posting.



You are right...........It's hot.


:)
We lived in a wonderful condo development at Lake Michigan. We owned a boat slip (slip-o-minium? I forget what it was called) in a marina attached to our condo. In both cases, the developer started out great and eventually started slicing away at the amenities. It was still a great place to live, and but for the weather we would still be there.


Every developer is in it for the bottom line. I don't know why when some of them become so astronomically rich that they still carve stuff off. Some on this forum have listed in detail the chipping away.


Because I love it here, I put up with it. Still, it makes me sigh. Just my opinion.

[dewilson58]

Just my opinion.




Happiness is when your life on the outside matches your life on the inside.





New tagline????............or am I just slow at noticing???




Love it.




The opposite is true as well.


:coolsmiley:

[Velvet]

Business is business. My research shows that if I had a significant sinkhole on my property the assessment etc start at $100,000 ... I can imagine how expensive the properties and the streets to fix must be at Calumet Grove... how much is goodwill worth?

[CFrance]

Happiness is when your life on the outside matches your life on the inside.





New tagline????............or am I just slow at noticing???




Love it.




The opposite is true as well.


:coolsmiley:
No, It's been there for a year or more. But now you have me thinking about the opposite, when the outside of my life didn't match the inside of my life.. I've experienced that too, while growing up. What started out reallllllllllllllly bad ended up great. It makes me think everybody has a history that makes them the way they are. Circumstances can change people for the better (thankfully for me), but some circumstances could leave some people in not such a good situation.



Who knows who these people are? We should try to give breaks, as long as they're not trying to bring everyone down.

[Fuzz323]

It seems to me that the level of problems here in The Villages is relatively minor. Compare our lifestyle with those in New York City with its high taxes and traffic, or Seattle or San Francisco with their out of control homelessness and high cost of living, or the Texas border towns who have had 250K of new uninvited citizens added to their communities this year already, and the Morse family's push for growth seems minor so far. Even with the push south, TV is still a great place to live.

I have a problem only with one word of your post and that would be those 250 thousand new uninvited CITIZENS who are not. A citizen is a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to our government. Those 250 thousand or more illegals are NOT citizens but lawbreakers. I will say no more!

[manaboutown]

I have a problem only with one word of your post and that would be those 250 thousand new uninvited CITIZENS who are not. A citizen is a native or naturalized person who owes allegiance to our government. Those 250 thousand or more illegals are NOT citizens but lawbreakers. I will say no more!

Yup. They are illegal aliens.

[ColdNoMore]

Thank you, Marilyn Riccio. I have been following that situation, off and on, for a while. Those people have to feel trapped and heavily stressed. I have the ability (or maybe it’s a curse) to put myself in another’s place and give thought to how they must feel. (Sometimes I wish I were callous and self-absorbed. But I do not think my personality will change after having it for oh so many decades.)

Many people in TV have mortgage-free homes. A lot of them have paid cash up front, having sold their houses up north for a tidy profit. While there is a definite comfort zone in having no mortgage, it means that the homeowner is the bank, the whole bank, and nothing but
the bank — the risk-carrier.

Each time I hear about a sinkhole, I wonder how Citizen’s bank would respond if such devastating loss landed with them because they were holding the mortgage, owning the house. (Just a thought. I have been told that I often think outside the box.)

Gracie, if I may respectfully take issue with your first sentence above about adequate insurance, I must point out that there is an enormous difference in the aftermath of the natural occurrences you use in your examples.

First of all, those of us who have been around here for a long time know that insuring for sinkholes has a checkered past. Additionally, and especially, the glaring difference is that owners of sinkhole properties, no matter how insured, seem to never be whole again. Insurance for earthquakes and lightning strikes — also tornadoes and hurricanes and such — can put the homeowner back in place in a house all back together and all is well. But when the loss is the very ground beneath the home, it is a devastating and on going loss — nothing is ever the same.

Hey, manaboutown. I have read about this over the years. Geology was my favorite science class, second place was botany. (Yes. I know. Sheldon Cooper would not consider them to be real science. :) )

Also, I must compliment you are you choice of sources for this one.

And, another thing, I find the go-to grasping of the word ’jealousy’ by the die-hard, all-or-nothing developer defenders to be tedious and ridiculous.

I have often, in posts here, compared owning in TV to be like owning stock in a corporation. The Lifestyle to be enjoyed is like a dividend paid by the stock. Dividend investors, by their very nature, pay close attention to what is happening to the investment itself and, of course, to the dividend. Is the dividend increasing or being cut or holding steady? The decision to buy or sell said stock lies with the owner — not with someone spewing the old, “Don’t let the door hit you in the backside” cliche.

We felt as if the investment in TV was a pretty safe one. That’s all. I have no need to dance in a conga line around the developer who does not know me any more than the CEO of any other company knows me. It’s a business — merely a business — on both ends. (my personal view)

Oh well, while I am taking up an entire page, quoting and commenting, I might as well throw in something else:

To Jazeula and Midnight Cowgirl,

I really like your posts. Your writing is insightful, smart, with a sparkle, and just the right amount of sass. :)

Sincerely,
Boomer


Ditto...ALL. :ho:

[graciegirl]

[QUOTE=Boomer;1653256]Thank you, Marilyn Riccio. I have been following that situation, off and on, for a while. Those people have to feel trapped and heavily stressed. I have the ability (or maybe it’s a curse) to put myself in another’s place and give thought to how they must feel. (Sometimes I wish I were callous and self-absorbed. But I do not think my personality will change after having it for oh so many decades.)

Many people in TV have mortgage-free homes. A lot of them have paid cash up front, having sold their houses up north for a tidy profit. While there is a definite comfort zone in having no mortgage, it means that the homeowner is the bank, the whole bank, and nothing but
the bank — the risk-carrier. unquote snipped

This does not explain why the builder of any community would or should be expected to repair the results of an event of nature.

Sinkhole insurance is available but may not be cheap. Neither is Hurricane insurance if you live on the coast. The builders of the home are not legally or morally responsible if they blow down.

It is really just as annoying and wrong to always find something to belittle about successful big business as it is to always defend successful big business.

THAT, I believe is on subject.

[Boomer]

You are so correct the easement is owned by the homeowner. Sadly the Stormwater pipe in that easement collapsed causing catastrophic destruction to both Retirement homes, the road, and the property values in the neighborhood. No one has repaired the homes since 2/15/18. The neighbors foolishly turned in total desperation to the current developer in hopes he had the mercy of The Villagers Founder. Hope such an event does not happen to others As it did to two homeowners on Mclawren terrace both in their eighties. Both left their dream retirement homes, as well as, the friendliest home town.

The post above from Marilyn Riccio gives the specifics of why that particular area has had their property values hit so hard.

While, yes, the easement is owned by the homeowners, it is stated that it was the collapse of the stormwater pipes in the easement that caused the catastrophe.

I see the collapse of stormwater pipes as a problem with the original infrastructure — and who oh who was responsible for building the infrastructure.

That is the main reason why I see this situation as horribly unfair. I do not see it as being as simple as some like to make it because my interpretation is that it is not truly about who “owns” the easement. To me, it looks like the responsibility goes with the infrastructure.

Also, an earlier post of mine has been quoted out of context, leaving out the point I was trying to make. (Oh well, I think I was too subtle anyway.) In the left out part, I was simply theorizing about whether things would be different if risk had been shared by an on site bank like, perhaps, Citizens, holding a mortgage — rather than the homeowner carrying the entire risk. The power of the on site bank, if left holding a part of the risk, might have been helpful. But we will never know. All we do know is that regular people, on their own, are suffering great loss.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify my points this morning, and now I must try not to bog down in this — which was my original intention. (sigh) There are wheels within wheels in all this stuff. I need to go hang out now with people I can actually see. :)

[ColdNoMore]

The post above from Marilyn Riccio gives the specifics of why that particular area has had their property values hit so hard.

While, yes, the easement is owned by the homeowners, it is stated that it was the collapse of the stormwater pipes in the easement that caused the catastrophe.

I see the collapse of stormwater pipes as a problem with the original infrastructure — and who oh who was responsible for building the infrastructure.

That is the main reason why I see this situation as horribly unfair. I do not see it as being as simple as some like to make it because my interpretation is that it is not truly about who “owns” the easement. To me, it looks like the responsibility goes with the infrastructure.

Also, an earlier post of mine has been quoted out of context, leaving out the point I was trying to make. (Oh well, I think I was too subtle anyway.) In the left out part, I was simply theorizing about whether things would be different if risk had been shared by an on site bank like, perhaps, Citizens, holding a mortgage — rather than the homeowner carrying the entire risk. The power of the on site bank, if left holding a part of the risk, might have been helpful. But we will never know. All we do know is that regular people, on their own, are suffering great loss.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify my points this morning, and now I must try not to bog down in this — which was my original intention. (sigh) There are wheels within wheels in all this stuff. I need to go hang out now with people I can actually see. :)

Yep...:agree:

[Barefoot]

I think that they are very good at what they do, and deserve the wealth they have earned, but that when they are wrong it should be pointed out and subject to criticism or even recourse. Those that see the developers as perfect seem to me to have a huge blindspot, as do those who see them as wicked and greedy. I see them as successful entrepreneurs who have filled a huge need with a marvelous product, but with some minor flaws which should be pointed out and addressed.IMHO, you always hit the nail on the head and express your thoughts succinctly. :agree:

[manaboutown]

This does not explain why the builder of any community would or should be expected to repair the results of an event of nature.

What if the sinkhole in question was not some random event or act of nature? What if it was caused by the action or inaction of the builder or drainage pipe manufacturer? Couldn't the manufacturer of the drainage pipe be held accountable if the pipe was found to be defective? Couldn't the installer be held responsible if the pipe was improperly installed? Possible either or both entities could be liable under an implied warranty of merchantability...just a possibility here. Implied warranty - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty)

[dewilson58]

What if the sinkhole in question was not some random event or act of nature? What if it was caused by the action or inaction of the builder or drainage pipe manufacturer? Couldn't the manufacturer of the drainage pipe be held accountable if the pipe was found to be defective? Couldn't the installer be held responsible if the pipe was improperly installed? Possible either or both entities could be liable under an implied warranty of merchantability...just a possibility here. Implied warranty - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty)




With enough could's and couldn't's and maybe's and maybe not's..............anything is possible.





There could be a Santa Claus and an Easter Bunny.


:blahblahblah::blahblahblah::blahblahblah:

[It's Hot There]

With enough could's and couldn't's and maybe's and maybe not's..............anything is possible.





There could be a Santa Claus and an Easter Bunny.


:blahblahblah::blahblahblah::blahblahblah:



Agree. His is one of the negatives you are asking Why??

I'm starting to see the negative people as having personal issues. Very sad.

[dewilson58]

Agree. His is one of the negatives you are asking Why??

I'm starting to see the negative people as having personal issues. Very sad.




You are learning Grasshopper. With ~50 posts, early learner.


Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


My answer use to be "Bully". I thought maybe these negative posters were Bullies in High School and have just continued their ways. Now I'm thinking quite the opposite. The always negative posters were bullied or not with the "in crowd in life". As a result, they are 1/2 full people, full of negativity and don't like the success of the Developer & family. They can hide behind a user name. Some don't even live in TV, which is mind boggling to me.



So Hottie, sit back and watch .....................


:duck:

[graciegirl]

You are learning Grasshopper. With ~50 posts, early learner.


Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


My answer use to be "Bully". I thought maybe these negative posters were Bullies in High School and have just continued their ways. Now I'm thinking quite the opposite. The always negative posters were bullied or not with the "in crowd in life". As a result, they are 1/2 full people, full of negativity and don't like the success of the Developer & family. They can hide behind a user name. Some don't even live in TV, which is mind boggling to me.



So Hottie, sit back and watch .....................


:duck:

I hope this post stays. It makes sense to me, although I am NOT innocent. Sometimes I like to stir things up too. Everyone thinks they are on strong moral ground but that is iffy real estate from day to day.

[Boomer]

An analytical post built on specifics and showing the poster's ability to apply critical thinking skills should not be interpreted as negative and should never incite name-calling and predictable, platitudinous, pseudo-sympathetic comments from other posters.

Thinkers gonna think for themselves. Too bad that bothers some and sends them down their well-worn path of name-calling and lame implications about someone's life and happiness. Ridiculous.

Why not come back with a well thought out opposing opinion of the actual situation, complete with backup. But that is not likely to happen. It is so much easier for some to dismiss and try to cover up anything that might be leading to discomfort if acknowledgment of a different way of thinking is getting too close.

But (sigh) the wagons are circling, as usual. The thought police are on patrol. Posts are being weaponized with boring and boorish clichéd comments to try to make those with differing opinions go away. The "Us vs. Them" posters are out and in formation.

The inability (or refusal) to try to understand shades of gray in levels of varying opinions ends up with the need to dismiss and mock in order to not have to tax one's own thinking. Turning the tone of a debate toxic comes so much easier than a well thought out rebuttal -- so there you have it. Textbook stuff on how not to debate.

And soon, the thread will close. (sigh)

[Shbullet]

An analytical post built on specifics and showing the poster's ability to apply critical thinking skills should not be interpreted as negative and should never insight name-calling and predictable, platitudinous, pseudo-sympathetic comments from other posters.

Thinkers gonna think for themselves. Too bad that bothers some and sends them down their well-worn path of name-calling and lame implications about someone's life and happiness. Ridiculous.

Why not come back with a well thought out opposing opinion of the actual situation, complete with backup. But that is not likely to happen. It is so much easier for some to dismiss and try to cover up anything that might be leading to discomfort if acknowledgment of a different way of thinking is getting too close.

But (sigh) the wagons are circling, as usual. The thought police are on patrol. Posts are being weaponized with boring and boorish clichéd comments to try to make those with differing opinions go away. The "Us vs. Them" posters are out and in formation.

The inability (or refusal) to try to understand shades of gray in levels of varying opinions ends up with the need to dismiss and mock in order to not have to tax one's own thinking. Turning the tone of a debate toxic comes so much easier than a well thought out rebuttal -- so there you have it. Textbook stuff on how not to debate.

And soon, the thread will close. (sigh)

This is one of the best posts Ive read that speaks volumes about where most posts end up...If u read post 116 ,117, 118 the comments make me want to say things that surely the moderator would not approve of. Its a shame opinions/views on the subject at hand, cant be taken with value and the name calling/smudge remarks could be refrained from.

[graciegirl]

[QUOTE=Shbullet;1653564]This is one of the best posts Ive read that speaks volumes about where most posts end up...If u read post 116 ,117, 118 the comments make me want to say things that surely the moderator would not approve of. Its a shame all opinions/views cant be taken with some value and the name calling/smudge remarks could be refrained from.[/QUOTE

I, on the other hand liked posts 117 and 118 and feel they have much value. As Boomer sighs and says "It's a shame that all posters thoughts can't be valued" not just the ones that you agree with" or something akin to that anyway.

We hear a lot from some of the naysayers about the "clique". There are a number of people who have met others in person, one or several times by going to the meetings that Talk of the Villages had for years. Few of the people who are negative attended those gatherings.

Some of the posters who I have read for years and I would give my eye teeth to meet, I have sadly never met and way too many have passed away.

Life is so short and so precious. I don't know why anyone tries to be anything but happy with this day that is given to them.

[DAVES]

I mostly agree with you. However, I don't know anybody who feels the developers are perfect. I have never heard anyone say that. I think the issue is with people who see them as horrible, greedy, stupid, etc. I think those of us who are big supporters - myself included - disagree with some things they do. Small criticism are ok, condemnation is not really called for regarding people who provide such a beautiful community for us all to enjoy.

Read any of these threads. Imagine if the INMATES were running this place. Simple decisions, flowers (plants) to put at common ground. For a real battle, see previous threads-pets, noise, golf cart speeds, age, parties, garage sales, water use. Is this place perfect-NO. But, imagine if the INMATES were running it.

[manaboutown]

The owners of the homes completely ruined by the sinkhole passed their homes to a company that has tied up things. Most people in their eighties here well manage to take care of things and do not need pity.

And they are capable of moving and usually can so do if they wish.

I wonder if the owners in question who were forced to sell under extreme duress for pennies on the dollar to likely the only buyer available would blithely say they "passed their homes to a company". If I were in this grievous situation I would literally be in anguish, suffering significant financial loss and conceivably the death of my retirement dream.

I also wonder if a for-profit house flipping company ever sets out to 'tie things up'. Why would such an outfit do that at some financial cost to itself rather than rehab the houses and profitably resell them as quickly as possible? The tie up is due to the inaction to remediate the sinkhole by the powers that be, whoever and whatever they are.

Whether or not the homeowners "do not need pity" I truly pity them. If this happened to me I would be devastated. These 80+ year old folks likely did not "wish" to move but have been unquestionably forced to do so. I imagine they much more likely would have wished to continue to live out their days enjoying whatever activities they were taking part in prior to their terrible loss. My heart goes out to them and to their neighbors as the whole neighborhood has been adversely impacted.

[graciegirl]

I wonder if the owners in question who were forced to sell under extreme duress for pennies on the dollar to likely the only buyer available would say they "passed their homes to a company". If I were in this grievous situation I would literally be in anguish, suffering significant financial loss and conceivably the death of my retirement dream.

I also wonder if a for-profit house flipping company ever sets out to 'tie things up'. Why would such an outfit set out to do that at some financial cost rather than rehab the houses and profitably resell them as quickly as possible? The tie up is due to the inaction to remediate the sinkhole by the powers that be, whoever and whatever they are.

Whether or not the homeowners "do not need pity" I truly pity them. If this happened to me I would be devastated. These 80+ year old folks likely did not "wish" to move but have been unquestionably forced to do so. I imagine they much more likely would have wished to continue enjoying whatever activities they were taking part in prior to their terrible loss. My heart goes out to them and to their neighbors as the whole neighborhood has been adversely impacted.

You misunderstood me, or I was not clear. It is indeed very sad that they have suffered catastrophic loss due to this completely awful event.

They are forced to move because this happened, not because someone caused it to happen. They should and are given sympathy because of having an act of nature destroy their home, and we all would be saddened by this no matter how young or old they are.

The point I was trying to make is that many of us reading this forum are in our eighties and living very normally and independently and do not need pity for being a certain age. People do not need to be pitied for being old. Many of us are doing quite well.

[JSR22]

I feel pity for the people because of the event not their age. It is a terrible situation to lose your home.

[manaboutown]

Calumet Grove Sinkhole Update - March 29, 2019 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH59MsFutXE)

In The Villages, sinkhole damage remains after 15 months - News - Ocala.com - Ocala, FL (https://www.ocala.com/news/20190416/in-villages-sinkhole-damage-remains-after-15-months)

That this situation has continued so long is inexcusable IMHO.

[Moderator]

This thread has strayed far from the original topic. The OP asked the mods for some leeway, but posts must return to that original topic. Detailed discussions of what the developer has or has not done belong in their own thread. Further off topic posts will be removed.

Moderator

[eweissenbach]

An analytical post built on specifics and showing the poster's ability to apply critical thinking skills should not be interpreted as negative and should never incite name-calling and predictable, platitudinous, pseudo-sympathetic comments from other posters.

Thinkers gonna think for themselves. Too bad that bothers some and sends them down their well-worn path of name-calling and lame implications about someone's life and happiness. Ridiculous.

Why not come back with a well thought out opposing opinion of the actual situation, complete with backup. But that is not likely to happen. It is so much easier for some to dismiss and try to cover up anything that might be leading to discomfort if acknowledgment of a different way of thinking is getting too close.

But (sigh) the wagons are circling, as usual. The thought police are on patrol. Posts are being weaponized with boring and boorish clichéd comments to try to make those with differing opinions go away. The "Us vs. Them" posters are out and in formation.

The inability (or refusal) to try to understand shades of gray in levels of varying opinions ends up with the need to dismiss and mock in order to not have to tax one's own thinking. Turning the tone of a debate toxic comes so much easier than a well thought out rebuttal -- so there you have it. Textbook stuff on how not to debate.

And soon, the will close. (sigh)

Outstanding post :bigbow:

[fw102807]

Why do people support the Developer / TV Concept,



and



Why do other people appear to want to negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer???


So many times, threads get off of the OP's topic and turn into a debate on The Developers, The Villages' concept, personal attacks against the Developers and the personal support of the Developers.


The Moderators will give us some room here, but let's see if we can flush some of the thoughts / logic out prior to this thread being locked down.




Me????.................I have a lot of respect for the business people who risk their financial well being to develop/create something. ie: The Wright Brothers; Bill Gates; Ben Franklin; John Baird; Delbert Webb: Harley Davidson; as examples. Some got very rich, some did not. To me, that's the American Way.


:ho:

Biology. How your brain is wired determines how you think.

[graciegirl]

Biology. How your brain is wired determines how you think.

Excellent post. I believe it more and more. I used to believe heavily in nurture and now I believe heavily in nature.

Also hormones. And gender which is biology too.

[Two Bills]

What a shame.
This thread isn't going to be here much longer, or it's suddenly going to lose a lot of weight.
Love it when you hear the knives getting sharpened.

[dewilson58]

Well......it lasted longer than I thought.


Some good information, and as expected the topic has turned to "it's the nasty developer's fault" rather than sticking on task.


It's funny (& sad) to go back and read the comments.



Moderator, thanks for letting this flow................your call: do some deleting or close it, "You Be the Man (a saying, not sexist)".




Thanks!!!!


:ho:

[Two Bills]

"it's the nasty developer's fault"

Seems more like "The Developer Can do no wrong" clique, throwing a strop, because some had the audacity to treasonably suggest that they did not agree with everthing regarding the growth of TV, some conditions, maintainance or lack of, fees, whatever.
The majority are here because they want to be, but that does not mean the residents have to assume the position when TD is passing or mentioned.

[dewilson58]

"it's the nasty developer's fault"

Seems more like "The Developer Can do no wrong" clique, throwing a strop, because some had the audacity to treasonably suggest that they did not agree with everthing regarding the growth of TV, some conditions, maintainance or lack of, fees, whatever.
The majority are here because they want to be, but that does not mean the residents have to assume the position when TD is passing or mentioned.




:MOJE_whot:

[graciegirl]

My response: because your perception is skewed. What you perceive to be true, isn't true. "Other people" don't "want" to "be negative and have a dislike for TV/The Developer." The entire premise is false. It's a trick question.

If they appear that way to you, perhaps you need a new eyeglass prescription.

Everything beyond that is a moot point.

I had written something in response to this and it was deleted.

I just ask you to read this over again. It isn't at all fair or kind.

I say again that D Wilson doesn't need new eyeglasses and that this kind of post is supposedly not allowed, critical of another poster.