Guns in Schools

[dewilson58]

Not sure how long this thread will last, but here I go:




Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???




Hate to at this point, but I would support trained teachers carrying to protect my children / grandchildren.


:popcorn:

[Kenswing]

I've thought about this a lot and am very hesitant.

Training sounds great but to actually become proficient in a combat situation takes a whole lot more than sending someone to a weekend class. How much training is the school willing to provide? How much training are the teachers willing to go through?

Will the teachers be indemnified for their actions when they screw up?

Most of the schools in the area I live have been somewhat hardened. Meaning you have to go through a door or gate to gain access. They also have at least one Sheriff Deputy on campus during school hours.

I think in some cases where a teacher might be a vet or former LEO it might work. But I'm still skeptical on whether teachers can actually receive adequate training and maintain the level of competence required to perform when the SHTF..

[retiredguy123]

I don't see any reason to modify the gun laws for schools. Just enforce the laws equally for everyone throughout the state. Creating gun free zones or special rules for schools is a mistake, especially creating "gun free" zones.

[fw102807]

My fear would be keeping them away from the kids.

[anothersteve]

In the words of those that want to take guns and the Second Amendment away;
"if it saves the life of just one child".
The same can be said for arming teachers and faculty.

As to this;
"They also have at least one Sheriff Deputy on campus during school hours."
How'd that work at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School?

As per the new Florida (passed) legislation;
"Under the program, teachers would need to pass a 144-hour training course before they could be armed. Employees at schools in 40 of the state's 67 counties have already either enrolled in that course or plan to do so."

"By law, school guardians must undergo a psychological evaluation and complete at least 144 hours of training, including 104 hours focused on firearm use. The remaining 40 hours are split between trainings on diversity, legal issues, defensive tactics and active shooter situations."

104 hours focused on firearm use............... that is very extensive training.
Oh yeah....I am for arming teachers and faculty......if it saves just one child............
Steve

[Kenswing]

In the words of those that want to take guns and the Second Amendment away;
"if it saves the life of just one child".
The same can be said for arming teachers and faculty.

As to this;
"They also have at least one Sheriff Deputy on campus during school hours."
How'd that work at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School?

As per the new Florida legislation;
"Under the program, teachers would need to pass a 144-hour training course before they could be armed. Employees at schools in 40 of the state's 67 counties have already either enrolled in that course or plan to do so."

"By law, school guardians must undergo a psychological evaluation and complete at least 144 hours of training, including 104 hours focused on firearm use. The remaining 40 hours are split between trainings on diversity, legal issues, defensive tactics and active shooter situations."

104 hours focused on firearm use............... that is very extensive training.
Oh yeah....I am for arming teachers and faculty......if it saves just one child............
SteveSounds like a comprehensive program. I hope it achieves what they want it to..

[Number 10 GI]

The arming of teachers won't be involuntary, they will have to be willing volunteers. I'm sure there are going to be psychological evaluations to determine their fitness to be entrusted with a firearm in the classroom. I don't believe there is any intent by anyone to allow wannabe Rambos turned loose with firearms. The amount of training required is pretty extensive and should provide a good basis for a teacher to be effective and safe. Our grandchildren went to high school with over 2,500 students in a very large building that would have taken many police officers to properly secure. I doubt there is any school with a budget that could pay for that level of security and neither do the police departments.

[Velvet]

As a teacher for 30 plus years and a competitive member of the hand gun club of my university I say; No! Guns, grenades and bombs have no business in the classroom.

[anothersteve]

As a teacher for 30 plus years and a competitive member of the hand gun club of my university I say; No! Guns, grenades and bombs have no business in the classroom.

With all due respect, why?
Steve

Edit to say I agree with the grenades and bomb thing. That's just silly to let teachers and faculty have those.

[JoMar]

I've talked to a few teachers, not in Florida but friends that still live up north. If they had the choice they would carry. It's not only the kids in danger, it is also the teachers and being the adults in the room they feel an obligation to protect their kids and that could mean getting between the shooter and the kids. I think we sometimes forget about the teachers in those situations. I'm in favor of allowing those that want to carry and go through the psychological testing and the extensive training should have that option.

[Velvet]

Dangerous for many reasons. A teacher concentrates on teaching, they are trained to educate. They are not security guards, they are not army or police. We have had education in many countries for centuries. Can you name one place that arms their educators in their school system?

[Velvet]

I've talked to a few teachers, not in Florida but friends that still live up north. If they had the choice they would carry. It's not only the kids in danger, it is also the teachers and being the adults in the room they feel an obligation to protect their kids and that could mean getting between the shooter and the kids. I think we sometimes forget about the teachers in those situations. I'm in favor of allowing those that want to carry and go through the psychological testing and the extensive training should have that option.

You better be trained very well and in constant training. Do you know how hard it is to hit a moving object? We used to compete with our local police in training. And the probability of hitting a child in the shoot out...

[BobnBev]

I'll vote no. Should be active or retired LEO's.:boom:

[kcrazorbackfan]

Yes, unequivocally. But, as I was trained as a LEO in the use of a firearm, they should also have extensive training to include quarterly qualification in the use of the weapon.

[anothersteve]

You better be trained very well and in constant training. Do you know how hard it is to hit a moving object? We used to compete with our local police in training. And the probability of hitting a child in the shoot out...

See my post above.

Extensive training is a prerequisite.
Also...who shoots up schools? .....kids....wacked out kids! No military training,... well...no training at all....just screwed up kids with serious problems..
First responders, well trained teachers, faculty are the the best and first line of defense.
Steve

[anothersteve]

I'll vote no. Should be active or retired LEO's.:boom:

Again I ask....why?
Steve

[justjim]

Teachers are there to teach and not to guard the school. Anybody who thinks this will solve violence in the school is just “barking up the wrong tree.” IMHO. In short, I think it’s a bad idea to put that type of responsibility on the teacher even if they volunteer for the task. Best that money be spent on other things like mental health, counseling and professional trained police.

[anothersteve]

Teachers are there to teach and not to guard the school. Anybody who thinks this will solve violence in the school is just “barking up the wrong tree.” IMHO. In short, I think it’s a bad idea to put that type of responsibility on the teacher even if they volunteer for the task. Best that money be spent on other things like mental health, counseling and professional trained police.

Nobody said arming teachers and faculty will "solve" violence in schools. We are talking about eliminating and maybe avoiding the casualties in the case of an active shooter in the school. I would love to hear viable options, of which I am hearing none.
Steve

[anothersteve]

Best that money be spent on other things like mental health, counseling and professional trained police.

And again I ask....how well did that work at Majory Stoneman Douglas High??
Steve

[Velvet]

The answer is education. Anti-bullying. Teaching tolerance understanding differences. Guidance counseling, social outreach.
My SIL taught “alternative” kids in high school, the homeless, the drug users, the lost ones. She’d take them home sometimes teach them how to do laundry, how to make a meal. Several of her students became very successful, one is a well known film director in Hollywood. She gave them an alternative.
What I am trying to say is the answer is not to shoot the shooter, but to give a reason for the shooter not to want to shoot in the first place.

[graciegirl]

The answer is education. Anti-bullying. Teaching tolerance understanding differences. Guidance counseling, social outreach.
My SIL taught “alternative” kids in high school, the homeless, the drug users, the lost ones. She’d take them home sometimes teach them how to do laundry, how to make a meal. Several of her students became very successful, one is a well known film director in Hollywood. She gave them an alternative.
What I am trying to say is the answer is not to shoot the shooter, but to give a reason for the shooter not to want to shoot in the first place.

Sounds good. When someone is standing there with a gun to harm you, you need more than education.

[anothersteve]

What I am trying to say is the answer is not to shoot the shooter, but to give a reason for the shooter not to want to shoot in the first place.

So what are you supposed to do when
that "one" falls through the cracks and starts shooting? You shoot the shooter...
eliminate the threat....period.
Steve

[Velvet]

Guns are not the only way. We had an incident at my school several years ago. Our librarian was from Israel and she had Mossad training, she didn’t need a gun or a knife or anything else to disarm anyone. She solved our problem without incident.
You can train people in other ways besides guns.

[anothersteve]

Guns are not the only way. We had an incident at my school several years ago. Our librarian was from Israel and she had Mossad training, she didn’t need a gun or a knife or anything else to disarm anyone. She solved our problem without incident.
You can train people in other ways besides guns.

I would love to hear more of this "incident"

Steve

[Taltarzac725]

Teachers are there to teach and not to guard the school. Anybody who thinks this will solve violence in the school is just “barking up the wrong tree.” IMHO. In short, I think it’s a bad idea to put that type of responsibility on the teacher even if they volunteer for the task. Best that money be spent on other things like mental health, counseling and professional trained police.

Like that suggestion. You are also putting a teacher and her students into a combat situation with no idea how anyone will actually perform.

Have more trained maybe ex-service people who have actually been in combat in some form or another protecting schools. That also might deter some shooters.

And the the use of none lethal force is also a good idea as suggested by another poster.

More peer-to-peer counseling and anti-in person and cyber bullying approaches to preventing violence.

[Velvet]

A person was seen arming himself in the boys washroom on the second floor by a student. The PA immediately gave the school wide signal for lockdown. All students had to get away from doors and windows and stay under tables etc The doors were locked, the lights shut off. Everyone had to be silent.

I was at the end of the hall 2 doors from the boy’s washroom. I watched through the window of the classroom door as the slight librarian walked from her library at the other end of the hall bare handed and enter the boys washroom. I remember I said a prayer. My students were silent and still. I reassured them. What seemed like a long time later we were given the all clear.

I heard stories later how she disabled him but no other detail was given. She did not talk about it. I always thought it had to be a combination of talking him down and possibly use of martial arts.

[Fraugoofy]

Due to the national teacher shortage, there are many many adults in classrooms "teaching" with no educational background...
no child psychology courses; no pedagogy courses; no training on how to actually teach. Yet they "teach" on a daily basis.

Starting teacher pay and benefits in most states equal approximately what a manager at a fast food restaurant earn (with no college degree). The Villages Charter school pays teachers $40,000 a year.

Why on earth would anyone WANT to go to college to teach AND carry a gun?

What kind of person will teaching attract?

A compassionate one who looks out for students best interest or Rambo looking for his next fight?

I am 100% for safety and security for our most precious and vulnerable citizens (children), but arming teachers is not the answer.

Hire more security. Bring in professionals who have made it their life mission to serve and protect.

Let teachers teach kindness and problem solving and teamwork and Math and whatever subject area they excel in.

Leave the police work for police.








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[anothersteve]

Like that suggestion. You are also putting a teacher and her students into a combat situation with do idea how anyone will actually perform.

Have more trained maybe ex-service people who have actually been in combat in some form or another protecting schools. That also might deter some shooters.

And the the use of none lethal force is also a good idea as suggested by another poster.

More peer-to-peer counseling and anti-in person and cyber bullying approaches to preventing violence.

What is not understood by some here is.....
If there is an active shooter in the school....what are you going to do? What are your options? If you have a firearm on you person, what would you do? Would you fight or flight? Me? Even without a weapon to minimize the threat, I would fight until my last breath to save as many children as I could, that's just my training. .........what would you do?
Steve

[Velvet]

What would I do? At the very least, the same instinct as a mother would have.

[anothersteve]

What would I do? At the very least, the same instinct as a mother would have.

Fight? Till your last breath? Even if it meant deadly force with a firearm, if available?
Steve

[anothersteve]

I'm done with this conversation for tonight.
Good night all.
Steve

[Velvet]

Especially if the armed individual is one of my students (and I consider every student in my school as my student) I do not see them as someone that I would kill, but I would do whatever I could to stop the person from hurting my other students.

[justjim]

Nobody said arming teachers and faculty will "solve" violence in schools. We are talking about eliminating and maybe avoiding the casualties in the case of an active shooter in the school. I would love to hear viable options, of which I am hearing none.
Steve

Steve, spend more money on more school counselors and professional law officers as opposed to arming the teachers who are hired to teach and hopefully be role models for the students. I see all kinds of problems and issues. Where is a teacher going to keep his weapon and ammunition locked up safely somewhere in the classroom? It’s going to take time to get the weapon. Is this going to be a hand gun vs. an assault weapon or is the teacher also going to have the same type of weapon? Better background checks? That ship sailed . Perhaps ban semi automatic assault weapons for sale and what is the chance of that happening? The majority of Americans are in favor of banning certain Weapons for sale but the majority has lost that fight. The “bad guys” are likely to have one anyway or maybe even a bomb or two. Can you imagine a scenario when children are accidental injured or killed by friendly fire from a teacher. No, let teachers do the job that they were hired and trained for and trained Officers do the job they were hired to do. :ho: My hats off for both teachers and law officers.

[ColdNoMore]

Teachers are there to teach and not to guard the school. Anybody who thinks this will solve violence in the school is just “barking up the wrong tree.” IMHO. In short, I think it’s a bad idea to put that type of responsibility on the teacher even if they volunteer for the task. Best that money be spent on other things like mental health, counseling and professional trained police.

Steve, spend more money on more school counselors and professional law officers as opposed to arming the teachers who are hired to teach and hopefully be role models for the students. I see all kinds of problems and issues. Where is a teacher going to keep his weapon and ammunition locked up safely somewhere in the classroom? It’s going to take time to get the weapon. Is this going to be a hand gun vs. an assault weapon or is the teacher also going to have the same type of weapon? Better background checks? That ship sailed . Perhaps ban semi automatic assault weapons for sale and what is the chance of that happening? The majority of Americans are in favor of banning certain Weapons for sale but the majority has lost that fight. The “bad guys” are likely to have one anyway or maybe even a bomb or two. Can you imagine a scenario when children are accidental injured or killed by friendly fire from a teacher. No, let teachers do the job that they were hired and trained for and trained Officers do the job they were hired to do. :ho: My hats off for both teachers and law officers.



:agree:

[dewilson58]

For a teacher, or anyone with a CC............the gun is the last resort.



It's not a fix-all, one more level of protection for teachers, staff & students.


I assume there is a representative percentage of teachers/staff who CC permits already. Still, more training.........but there is a level of comfort already.

[anothersteve]

Steve, spend more money on more school counselors and professional law officers as opposed to arming the teachers who are hired to teach and hopefully be role models for the students. I see all kinds of problems and issues. Where is a teacher going to keep his weapon and ammunition locked up safely somewhere in the classroom? It’s going to take time to get the weapon. Is this going to be a hand gun vs. an assault weapon or is the teacher also going to have the same type of weapon? Better background checks? That ship sailed . Perhaps ban semi automatic assault weapons for sale and what is the chance of that happening? The majority of Americans are in favor of banning certain Weapons for sale but the majority has lost that fight. The “bad guys” are likely to have one anyway or maybe even a bomb or two. Can you imagine a scenario when children are accidental injured or killed by friendly fire from a teacher. No, let teachers do the job that they were hired and trained for and trained Officers do the job they were hired to do. :ho: My hats off for both teachers and law officers.

I'll break this down piece by piece.
More money for counseling? I agree.
More law officers? I agree.
As for where would teachers keep the weapon and ammo? Concealed on their person and easily accessible. The students would never know who or where. I carry on a daily basis, concealed and easily accessible, no one knows.
A hand gun vs. an "assault weapon" (which is a misnomer, it's actually a modern sporting rifle). Better something than nothing.
I personally do not believe the stats on "the majority" of Americans wanting to ban certain firearms. Where does the "banning" stop?
Please tell me a viable option if there is an active shooter in the classroom, where there are no "professional law enforcement around.

I'm going to skip out on this conversation for now. I've made my feelings well known here and I would just be beating a dead horse.
I do value everyone's opinion. You will not be able to satisfy everyone's feelings when it comes to the safety in the schools.
Steve

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

The specifics are open for discussion, but every law enforcement agent that I've ever spoken with says that the only way to solve the problem of school shootings is to harden the targets.

IMHO, having one or two armed guards on campus won't do it. Some schools are very large and by the time an armed guard can go from one end of a campus the other is too late.

Having armed personal at every location whether they be teachers, administrators or outside people will first of all deter many would be shooters from attempting a shooting. In the case of an attempt they would minimize the damage.

[Taltarzac725]

The specifics are open for discussion, but every law enforcement agent that I've ever spoken with says that the only way to solve the problem of school shootings is to harden the targets.

IMHO, we know that have one or two armed guards on campus won't do it. Some schools are very large and by the time an armed guard can go from one end of a campus the other is too late.

Having armed personal at every location whether they be teachers, administrators or outside people will first of all deter many would be shooters from attempting a shooting. In the case of an attempt they would minimize the damage.

That is definitely a good idea. They should try everything and anything that might reduce the number of these school shootings and keep teachers/students safe.

Go at the problem from every conceivable angle.

[Bogie Shooter]

How will the first responders to a school shooting be able to tell the bad guy(s) from the armed teachers?

[Nucky]

Not sure how long this thread will last, but here I go:




Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???




Hate to at this point, but I would support trained teachers carrying to protect my children / grandchildren.


:popcorn:

Very Controversial Subject but very important. I fully support the idea of Trained Teachers Carrying in School.

Many people haven't been back in any school since they graduated. I remember East Side High School in Paterson N.J. where the inmates took over the High School. Joe Clark was a tough guy who liked the camera but was in love with the idea of security. I wonder what he would say to this question? I have no doubt it would be Pro Security. That was many years ago and things have not gotten better since then. I was in that school almost every day, it wasn't good.

A person's point of view can and will be skewed dependant on the environment they are thinking about. Are they envisioning Mayberry, Little House on The Prarie or the reality of the Inner City and Schools like the ones in Connecticut?

If you're betting my families life on Gun or No Gun, Strap Up The Teacher! Train Them The Best You Can! Hope for a Positive Outcome in a Bad Situation. :pray:

[Taltarzac725]

Very Controversial Subject but very important. I fully support the idea of Trained Teachers Carrying in School.

Many people haven't been back in any school since they graduated. I remember East Side High School in Paterson N.J. where the inmates took over the High School. Joe Clark was a tough guy who liked the camera but was in love with the idea of security. I wonder what he would say to this question? I have no doubt it would be Pro Security. That was many years ago and things have not gotten better since then. I was in that school almost every day, it wasn't good.

A person's point of view can and will be skewed dependant on the environment they are thinking about. Are they envisioning Mayberry, Little House on The Prarie or the reality of the Inner City and Schools like the ones in Connecticut?

If you're betting my families life on Gun or No Gun, Strap Up The Teacher! Train Them The Best You Can! Hope for a Positive Outcome in a Bad Situation. :pray:

Good Nucky. What might work in some school in Texas in a rural area might not be a good solution in a New York City public school. Local gun culture should also play a role. I had a 12 gauge shotgun by age 12 or so while growing up in Reno, Nevada and one of my "friends" shot me in the left pinky with a BB gun after he had been pointing it at my eye. I asked him to try shooting between my fingers. He missed. That was the end of that "friendship".

[Velvet]

And where do we stop? Do we arm the bus drivers too? And the shoppers as many shootings up north take place in malls. Should we arm everyone, go back to the old West style? What kind of society would that make, armed and fearful?

What if it was your child or mine, your grandchild or mine who was the “bad” guy?

I understand the fear that drives a parent to protect, I just think that we have to do better.

[DAVES]

And where do we stop? Do we arm the bus drivers too? And the shoppers as many shootings up north take place in malls. Should we arm everyone, go back to the old West style? What kind of society would that make, armed and fearful?

What if it was your child or mine, your grandchild or mine who was the “bad” guy?

I understand the fear that drives a parent to protect, I just think that we have to do better.

The old west style existed only in John Wayne movies. The hero would shoot a hangman's rope from 1000 yards away mounted on a horse with his trusty colt 45 pistol. Pistols were expensive.
Most people were armed with shotguns.

Like most things my view is freedom of choice and responsibility for your actions.

[Nucky]

And where do we stop? Do we arm the bus drivers too? And the shoppers as many shootings up north take place in malls. Should we arm everyone, go back to the old West style? What kind of society would that make, armed and fearful?

What if it was your child or mine, your grandchild or mine who was the “bad” guy?

I understand the fear that drives a parent to protect, I just think that we have to do better.

I agree with a whole lot of what you have shared. You have a lot of background in the system. My background was limited. I was a Vendor, not an Educator but I did observe what went on inside various schools. The OP'S question didn't make a sweeping observation like this last post of yours did. It asked about Teachers Carrying. I Fully Support that.

I said what I said and said what I meant a Grandfather's Faithful 100%.

I also respect the views that oppose mine.

[blueash]

Sure, let the teachers and the custodians and the guidance counselors and the lunch ladies all carry their weapons. Heck, let the 18 year old seniors bring their guns too. Especially if they were in the Junior ROTC program. /s
But also, make them responsible for any outcome. You take down a bad guy in an active shooter situation, big bonus for you, in the millions. But if your gun harms an innocent person, or is "lost" and used in a crime, or goes off accidentally you are personally liable, not indemnified by the school system, but you the gun owner are responsible and you cannot bankrupt yourself out of that financial risk. You may get insurance if any company would insure you, at your own cost. The idea that 150 hours of training makes a person qualified to competently handle a school shooting is foolish.

And the "Old West".. read about the vigorous gun control in the "Old West" (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gun-control-old-west-180968013/) where you had to leave your weapon with the town sheriff if you were within the city limits.

[justjim]

How will the first responders to a school shooting be able to tell the bad guy(s) from the armed teachers?

As usual, Bogie comes up with the best question in this entire thread. :ho:

[DAVES]

Good Nucky. What might work in some school in Texas in a rural area might not be a good solution in a New York City public school. Local gun culture should also play a role. I had a 12 gauge shotgun by age 12 or so while growing up in Reno, Nevada and one of my "friends" shot me in the left pinky with a BB gun after he had been pointing it at my eye. I asked him to try shooting between my fingers. He missed. That was the end of that "friendship".

You probably should have gotten some gun safety instruction. Before getting a BB gun let alone a shotgun.

[justjim]

You probably should have gotten some gun safety instruction. Before getting a BB gun let alone a shotgun.

In my day, every boy had a BB gun... It was as common in the small town I grew up in as a pocket knife. :popcorn:

[anothersteve]

And where do we stop? Do we arm the bus drivers too? And the shoppers as many shootings up north take place in malls. Should we arm everyone, go back to the old West style? What kind of society would that make, armed and fearful?

What if it was your child or mine, your grandchild or mine who was the “bad” guy?

I understand the fear that drives a parent to protect, I just think that we have to do better.

I will refer that post back to the Second Amendment,
But that's a discussion for another day.
Steve

[Nucky]

As usual, Bogie comes up with the best question in this entire thread. :ho:

No doubt a great question. I have another one. How would the Officers who show up first know the Victim from The Villan? I'll leave that to those who risked their lives their entire lives for the protection of our lives. Maybe some I.D. they could flash to the Officers? Just a thought!

I like evening the playing field. Instead of the Bad Guy preying on the Weak maybe, just maybe he or she would think twice if they knew they could be harmed by an unknown person in the target school.

[dewilson58]

How will the first responders to a school shooting be able to tell the bad guy(s) from the armed teachers?




Teachers will put their guns down.

[BobnBev]

Especially if the armed individual is one of my students (and I consider every student in my school as my student) I do not see them as someone that I would kill, but I would do whatever I could to stop the person from hurting my other students.

They taught us in the academy, you never shoot to kill, you do shoot to stop the threat.

[JoMar]

And where do we stop? Do we arm the bus drivers too? And the shoppers as many shootings up north take place in malls. Should we arm everyone, go back to the old West style? What kind of society would that make, armed and fearful?

What if it was your child or mine, your grandchild or mine who was the “bad” guy?

I understand the fear that drives a parent to protect, I just think that we have to do better.

If it was my child or grandchild and they were the bad guy I would support the actions taken. This sounds much like a lot of attitudes today, do what you need to do UNLESS it is my kid, my property or any of my relatives. When I grew up our parents put our teachers in charge and trusted them to make the right decisions and sometimes that included getting our butts kicked by teachers. Today, discipline is not permitted. If a problem exists we need to send them to counseling. Parents don't accept responsibility for discipline and they won't delegate to those they entrust their kids to for up to 8 hours a day. Then when something happens, it's someone else's responsibilities. Arm the teachers, bus drivers and anyone else whose life can be in danger. That's why I carry.

[Bogie Shooter]

Teachers will put their guns down.

I’ve seen that happen a lot in those news videos....right after they have been shot.
Your answer makes sense if the shooter is dead, what if he/she is still active? And all hell is breaking loose?

[dewilson58]

I’ve seen that happen a lot in those news videos....right after they have been shot.
Your answer makes sense if the shooter is dead, what if he/she is still active? And all hell is breaking loose?




Carrying a weapon is self defense.
Last resort.

I don't see teachers running up and down the halls shooting.


As self defense, teachers would be in classrooms with students, behind closed doors.


As police clear the facility, they are announcing and identifying.


Training, not the wild west.

[seoulbrooks]

First of all what is adequate training? I received many hours of training but that did not make me comfortable to point my weapon at another human being.

Look back on many of the school shootings. What we really need is for the parents of the shooters to be held responsible for the firearms in their homes and then in the procession of a child. How many parents of the shooters have been held responsible? None, they all had such difficult children...….bull......they were bad, nonresponsive parents. So much of todays problems steam from the home environment.....but the blame always shifts elsewhere.

[Velvet]

When you only have a hammer, every problem is a nail.

[Nucky]

If a Hammer was coming at one of our Collective Grandchildren I would hope the Teacher that is fully TRAINED would just like the children to turn from a Nail to a SledgeHammer! We are just going around in circles. I get your point, I don't agree but I get your point.

[Kenswing]

They taught us in the academy, you never shoot to kill, you do shoot to stop the threat.
Which is center mass, over and over..

[Number 10 GI]

Scott Beigel, a geography teacher at Majory Stoneman Douglas High School, probably wished he had a gun when he was shot and killed while trying to protect students from Nikolas Cruz.

[PersonalChoice]

You better be trained very well and in constant training. Do you know how hard it is to hit a moving object? We used to compete with our local police in training. And the probability of hitting a child in the shoot out...

The untrained, mentally ill shooters taking anti-depressants don't seem to have a problem hitting moving targets, with all due respect. The first step is to repeal "gun-free zones." There is a reason mass shootings take place in schools and not in banks, police stations, gun shows, etc.

[retiredguy123]

The untrained, mentally ill shooters taking anti-depressants don't seem to have a problem hitting moving targets, with all due respect. The first step is to repeal "gun-free zones." There is a reason mass shootings take place in schools and not in banks, police stations, gun shows, etc.
I agree. But, treating schools, churches, etc. differently from other locations will not really reduce the violence. Just enforcing the second amendment consistently everywhere is the best way to go. If you harden certain areas, those who want to kill will just find another target.

[Velvet]

I understand people wanting to “harden” certain areas. What I would like to say is that if we live with a bunker mentality, we are dominated by our fears. Please look at what happens in societies that are run by guns.

I propose a gentler, safer, freer and more disciplined society. One that is adequately guarded by its police and military.

In my years as a teacher I have seen a great reduction of discipline, both in school and at home. Loving, enabling, misguided parents are often shocked by the self-absorbed, entitled kids that result from their efforts.

I remember a student in our gifted program (in a public school) whose very established parents were having a meeting with our principal. They were planning his grade 7 math program. The parents brought their own lawyer to the meeting to make sure the curriculum presented to Max, their son, would be up to their satisfaction.

Several years later, my daughter who was the same age as this gifted student, was enrolled in the same high school. One day I asked her, “How’s Max doing?” She told me he dropped out and became the local drug dealer.

In the transition phase to my ideal society we could have police assigned to be in the schools. They would be trained to get to know the kids and the parents. Be a resource and a friend. And they would have their guns too.

[graciegirl]

I understand people wanting to “harden” certain areas. What I would like to say is that if we live with a bunker mentality, we are dominated by our fears. Please look at what happens in societies that are run by guns.

I propose a gentler, safer, freer and more disciplined society. One that is adequately guarded by its police and military.

In my years as a teacher I have seen a great reduction of discipline, both in school and at home. Loving, enabling, misguided parents are often shocked by the self-absorbed, entitled kids that result from their efforts.

I remember a student in our gifted program (in a public school) whose very established parents were having a meeting with our principal. They were planning his grade 7 math program. The parents brought their own lawyer to the meeting to make sure the curriculum presented to Max, their son, would be up to their satisfaction.

Several years later, my daughter who was the same age as this gifted student, was enrolled in the same high school. One day I asked her, “How’s Max doing?” She told me he dropped out and became the local drug dealer.

In the transition phase to my ideal society we could have police assigned to be in the schools. They would be trained to get to know the kids and the parents. Be a resource and a friend. And they would have their guns too.

I believe that society will not change until the parent/s of babies stay with them most of the time for three years, like it was in our memory. Manners, morals, values and attitudes are helped during that time, but more importantly a real thing called bonding occurs which is biological and involves the hormone oxytocin.

The difference is the way a grandparent loves a child and a parent loves a child. And what happens if a grandparent raises a child or a parent raises a child.

Just my thoughts. People turn their infants over to people they would not trust with their car keys or their credit card.

[BobnBev]

Which is center mass, over and over..

Once you pull that trigger, whether right or wrong,be prepared for a law suit. Plan on spending a minimum of $100,000, or losing everything you've worked for. There is insurance that covers that kind of thing, but probably very expensive. I wonder how many people in TV actually have it? Speak up.

[Kenswing]

Once you pull that trigger, whether right or wrong,be prepared for a law suit. Plan on spending a minimum of $100,000, or losing everything you've worked for. There is insurance that covers that kind of thing, but probably very expensive. I wonder how many people in TV actually have it? Speak up.

Not as expensive as you might think.. Best Concealed Carry Insurance Comparison [2019] | Sniper Country (https://www.snipercountry.com/concealed-carry-insurance-comparison/)

[JimJohnson]

I am on the fence, but if you qualify for concealed carry, I would support open carry in a holster for all. I believe anyone that would kill an unarmed person is a coward and would be deterred from doing so if they thought their victim could defend themselves.

[Velvet]

Allow me a different approach. Your 4 year old is going to school for the first time, scared, afraid to let go of your hand... the teacher greets your child at the door. Would you prefer the teacher carry a gun on their waist or carry a live size teddy bear to greet your child? Second scenario, we are in high school geography class. The white haired old lady at the desk is looking around for her glasses before she starts her class. Third scenario, we are in university, the professor at the front is deeply engrossed in a macro econometric equation. He apologized earlier to the students for putting on his capris this morning instead of his pants because he was in a hurry to get to the lecture hall. All of these are real situations I have experienced.

One more thing to consider; the principal hiring the kindergarten teacher, what will they be looking for in a primary teacher? How well they can shoot?
The high school principal hiring the geography teacher, what will they be looking for in an educator?
The university committee in charge of deciding which candidate will bring prestige to the university (usually based on the type of research you have had published and how often your research is cited by others) do you think they will be interested in how well you can shoot?

[ColdNoMore]

SNIP...>The untrained, mentally ill shooters taking anti-depressants don't seem to have a problem hitting moving targets<...SNIP
Ya think that might have something to do with the fact that the scumbag, gun-nut school shooter's have semi-auto's with typically high-capacity magazines...and extra loaded magazines?

I would bet the majority of school shooters have missed more people with each bullet they've fired...than they've hit.

But a teacher, is going to be more accurate with a handgun...and with less bullets? :oops:

So what's next, letting teachers have military-style assault style rifles also...maybe just propped against their desks so they're handy?

And baloney on the attempted deflection by calling them "modern sporting rifles," (as the NRA would like)... they are 'military-style assault rifles,' period. :ohdear:

[anothersteve]

Obviously this will not matter to CNM, but others might be interested, and at least use this as fodder for thought. It's also very obvious we differ in our thoughts on firearms as a whole, so I will not debate the issue any longer.
Modern Sporting Rifle: Introduction • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Steve

[dewilson58]

Obviously this will not matter to CNM, but others might be interested, and at least use this as fodder for thought. It's also very obvious we differ in our thoughts on firearms as a whole, so I will not debate the issue any longer.
Modern Sporting Rifle: Introduction • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Steve




Interesting & Educational...........thanks for posting.

[Nucky]

Obviously this will not matter to CNM, but others might be interested, and at least use this as fodder for thought. It's also very obvious we differ in our thoughts on firearms as a whole, so I will not debate the issue any longer.
Modern Sporting Rifle: Introduction • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Steve


THE OP ASKED**Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???**

My views are in line with your's anothersteve. The link you provided was great. Thank You. Keep an eye on where this fantastic thread is headed now. Should be interesting. Train The Teachers and Strap 'Em Up. Times Are Changing, Get With The New Program. Protect the Children At Every Age!

[fw102807]

THE OP ASKED**Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???**

My views are in line with your's anothersteve. The link you provided was great. Thank You. Keep an eye on where this fantastic thread is headed now. Should be interesting. Train The Teachers and Strap 'Em Up. Times Are Changing, Get With The New Program. Protect the Children At Every Age!

There are always two or more sides to every issue. Sometimes it is the children you need to be protected from and bringing more guns into the school just makes the guns more available. The teachers now need to teach while at the same time worry about being attacked for their guns. It is never a simple answer.

[ColdNoMore]

Obviously this will not matter to CNM, but others might be interested, and at least use this as fodder for thought. It's also very obvious we differ in our thoughts on firearms as a whole, so I will not debate the issue any longer.
Modern Sporting Rifle: Introduction • NSSF (https://www.nssf.org/msr/)
Steve

And your assumption...would be dead wrong.

I've owned firearms, both handguns and long rifles (.22 to .30-06), plus a shotgun of course...since I was about 13.

Since I no longer hunt (got tired of venison a long time ago), I will rarely use them and usually just use my Ruger 10/22 (10-round rotary mag)for plinking...somewhere safe in the woods.

I also know how addicting to some people, the 'sense of power' a firearm conveys and how rabid some people get, when you talk about guns...ANY guns

I've simply never been one of those types.

So sorry, reading a link from "The Firearms Industry Trade Association" whose primary existence is to sell more guns (especially since sales have gone down, when the screeching of "Obama is coming to take away all your guns," which was never even an issue, has now gone away) ....doesn't exactly change my mind on military-style assault rifles.


US gun sales down 6.1 percent in 2018, extending '''Trump slump''' (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/30/us-gun-sales-down-6point1-percent-in-2018-extending-trump-slump.html)

[Bucco]

THE OP ASKED**Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???**

My views are in line with your's anothersteve. The link you provided was great. Thank You. Keep an eye on where this fantastic thread is headed now. Should be interesting. Train The Teachers and Strap 'Em Up. Times Are Changing, Get With The New Program. Protect the Children At Every Age!

I never owned a gun.....do not want to own a gun....did my shooting, etc while in the military.

My only comment to this post and specifically to this sentence..

"Train The Teachers and Strap 'Em Up. Times Are Changing, Get With The New Program. Protect the Children At Every Age"

That sentence sounds like the old west and getting together a posse.

I hope I am wrong but seems to me the accent on allowing more to carry, spells for ultimate tragedy in the future. The two bills passed in the US congress will obviously never even get voted on in the senate, and the Florida law is eventually going to be up to the local school district.

I hope and pray I am so wrong but the entire thing sounds like a sure fire recipe for disaster.

Believe me, my heart simply cries out for protecting our children at all costs from every kind of harm imaginable, but expanding their "world" with surrounding with more guns just does not feel right.

Seems to me that common sense is taking a vacation for some reason.

Ok...sorry to interrupt, but sort of tired of everyone on every issue just being macho instead of reasonable and listening instead of pounding of chests. My experience that usually brings more violence, not less.

[Velvet]

What about metal detectors? Seems to work at the airport.

[Kenswing]

What about metal detectors? Seems to work at the airport.
Some good reading here.. 5 reasons metal detectors in schools are a bad idea, according to security expert - masslive.com (https://www.masslive.com/news/2015/05/5_reasons_metal_detectors_in_school_are_bad.html)

And here..
School Metal Detectors - School SecuritySchool Security (https://www.schoolsecurity.org/trends/school-metal-detectors/)

[Velvet]

K, I read that article. ”Invest in people” in particular resonates with me. If it means guns, hire school police for each school, if it means education, train for tolerance and understanding and if it refers to bullying, train for conflict resolution.

[dewilson58]

THE OP ASKED**Should trained teachers be able to carry a gun in schools???**






Who was that OP???.............I think we should Strap 'Em Up!!!

[anothersteve]

Who was that OP???.............I think we should Strap 'Em Up!!!

Haha. Sometimes it's easy to read into sarcasm.
Steve

[Bucco]

Haha. Sometimes it's easy to read into sarcasm.
Steve

Sure is an amusing topic, isn't it ?

[BobnBev]

I am on the fence, but if you qualify for concealed carry, I would support open carry in a holster for all. I believe anyone that would kill an unarmed person is a coward and would be deterred from doing so if they thought their victim could defend themselves.

Seems to me that an "open carry" person would be the first target.

[BobnBev]

I understand people wanting to “harden” certain areas. What I would like to say is that if we live with a bunker mentality, we are dominated by our fears. Please look at what happens in societies that are run by guns.

I propose a gentler, safer, freer and more disciplined society. One that is adequately guarded by its police and military.

In my years as a teacher I have seen a great reduction of discipline, both in school and at home. Loving, enabling, misguided parents are often shocked by the self-absorbed, entitled kids that result from their efforts.

I remember a student in our gifted program (in a public school) whose very established parents were having a meeting with our principal. They were planning his grade 7 math program. The parents brought their own lawyer to the meeting to make sure the curriculum presented to Max, their son, would be up to their satisfaction.

Several years later, my daughter who was the same age as this gifted student, was enrolled in the same high school. One day I asked her, “How’s Max doing?” She told me he dropped out and became the local drug dealer.

In the transition phase to my ideal society we could have police assigned to be in the schools. They would be trained to get to know the kids and the parents. Be a resource and a friend. And they would have their guns too.

I propose a gentler, safer, freer and more disciplined society. One that is adequately guarded by its police and military.

OK then, meet me at 10:00 PM on M L King BLVD, and we can talk to the folks there about a gentler, safer, freer society. Yeah, that'll work. BTW way, don't come unarmed.:boom:

[Velvet]

You know, I just can’t give up hope, I can’t give up on people, and my specialty is to work with the young, and give them the tools to build the world they want.

Yes, I could come armed. But why? To defend myself... then why would I be going there (I’m not sure where the place you mentioned is, but it sounds rough) in the first place.

[Nucky]

I propose a gentler, safer, freer and more disciplined society. One that is adequately guarded by its police and military.

OK then, meet me at 10:00 PM on M L King BLVD, and we can talk to the folks there about a gentler, safer, freer society. Yeah, that'll work. BTW way, don't come unarmed.:boom:

Oh my, you've done it now, here they come. You are automatically wrong BobnBev. You aligned your beliefs against the Tag Team.

Your post is spot on Bob or Bev. Guess some people read about the hood while others worked in it, passed through it to get to work, have family and friends who live there and can't break the cycle to get out. People who send their children to school and worry if they will make the day and get home at all. The argument or conversation here is useless and pitiful. Some people have a message that is just on a loop, wait and sit for a post to pick apart just to stir the pot.

DOUBLE STRAP UP The Teachers, The Custodian's, The Lunch Ladies, whatever it takes try something before the same thing occurs again. Just do it! Protect the children. Period!

[Velvet]

“Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.”

[Nucky]

“Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.”

Not when nobody knows you have the sword. That's the key. CONCEALED CARRY. Nobody lays a gun on the desk.

Your peaceful way is definitely way better but that ship has sailed.

[ColdNoMore]

“Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.”

I think that was Tony Soprano's, and all of the Tony Soprano wannabe's out there...main motto.

[anothersteve]

I think that was Tony Soprano's, and all of the Tony Soprano wannabe's out there...main motto.

Tony Soprano wannabes? That's funny...
Innuendo noted
Steve

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And again I ask....how well did that work at Majory Stoneman Douglas High??
Steve

Turn that right around. You have officers whose actual job is to use a firearm if necessary, to protect, serve, and keep kids safe. They couldn't manage to do that.

But you're betting on teachers, who are NOT hired to protect and keep kids safe, but who are hired to TEACH...to be ready, willing, and able to a) fire a weapon, b) at an assailant, while c) not accidentally shooting one of his own students who panicks and gets in the way, d) being of mental and emotional ability to handle the consequences of the possibility of "c)" and e) being prepared to kill someone, mentally, physically, and emotionally, while f) not being able to consult with the psychologist and talk it out first because it's happening right this second and they're a teacher, not a cop.

I don't care how well-trained they are. They're not paid killers. They know they're not paid killers. But in order to stop a freak with an AR-15, you'd better be not only a paid killer, but damned good at it.

I wouldn't trust my kids with someone who is paid to be my kids' teacher, and volunteers to carry a firearm to protect my kids from someone with a firearm. I'd pull them from that school and if necessary, move to a state that doesn't allow it.

[anothersteve]

I don't care how well-trained they are. They're not paid killers. They know they're not paid killers. But in order to stop a freak with an AR-15, you'd better be not only a paid killer, but damned good at it.


Hmmmmmmm.
Steve

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I would not want my child staring at his teacher or focused on the fact that the teacher was visibly toting a gun or even thinking about the gun the teacher had in his pocket, sock, or wherever.
If the weapon is in a drawer -- a locked drawer, I would assume, what good would THAT do???

My child is in school to learn!
Trained or not trained, that is NOT the primary training of a teacher, nor is it THEIR main interest.
A teacher packing a pistol is an aberration. Under the best of circumstances, my response is a definite NO.
Let teachers do the job they want to do and are qualified to do -- that's to TEACH! Period.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I would not want my child staring at his teacher or focused on the fact that the teacher was visibly toting a gun or even thinking about the gun the teacher had in his pocket, sock, or wherever.
If the weapon is in a drawer -- a locked drawer, I would assume, what good would THAT do???

My child is in school to learn!
Trained or not trained, that is NOT the primary training of a teacher, nor is it THEIR main interest.
A teacher packing a pistol is an aberration. Under the best of circumstances, my response is a definite NO.
Let teachers do the job they want to do and are qualified to do -- that's to TEACH! Period.

I agree, that is not the teachers primary job. But it is a secondary responsibility to keep the children safe. Teachers could carry guns concealed so that no one including the children would know who is carrying. Once this became the norm, children would not be focused on who is carrying and who is not.

It might surprise you to know that approximately one third of the people in The Villages have concealed carry permits. There are thousands of guns around you every day and you don't know it. It's one of the things that make The Villages a very safe place and one of the reasons our crime rate is among the lowest in the country. And you are not focused on who might be carrying. It's just norm.

[fw102807]

I agree, that is not the teachers primary job. But it is a secondary responsibility to keep the children safe. Teachers could carry guns concealed so that no one including the children would know who is carrying. Once this became the norm, children would not be focused on who is carrying and who is not.

It might surprise you to know that approximately one third of the people in The Villages have concealed carry permits. There are thousands of guns around you every day and you don't know it. It's one of the things that make The Villages a very safe place and one of the reasons our crime rate is among the lowest in the country. And you are not focused on who might be carrying. It's just norm.

I wish I could unknow that because now I don’t feel safe at all.

[anothersteve]

I wish I could unknow that because now I don’t feel safe at all.

About 10% of Florida's population have CCW's. So one out of every ten might be carrying

"Florida had a total of 1,971,997 currently valid concealed weapon permits as of March 31, according to the latest figures from the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services."

Steve

[billethkid]

Many are blindly led by the media and politics of the day (or the moment).

I would like to hear from teachers and administrators actually involved in a school shooting or anybody involved in an actual shooting situation....to get what they think about the proposal.

Any and all other discussions-opinions are intellectual, driven by one's beliefs/prejudice/religion/party affiliation/etc. Not a negative intention....just the reality of the issue.....in my humble opinion.

[Kenswing]

Many are blindly led by the media and politics of the day (or the moment).

I would like to hear from teachers and administrators actually involved in a school shooting or anybody involved in an actual shooting situation....to get what they think about the proposal.

Any and all other discussions-opinions are intellectual, driven by one's beliefs/prejudice/religion/party affiliation/etc. Not a negative intention....just the reality of the issue.....in my humble opinion.
Exactly. That's why I don't even bother getting into these debates anymore. The same people take the same position over and over. I know I have little chance of changing anyone's mind and I also admit there's little chance that anyone will change mine.

After awhile it just becomes a big circle jerk.. lol

[Velvet]

Wow! Those stats on gun permits are a surprise. I can see the “right” to arms as in the second amendment, but that so many people feel a need to have guns, unless they are collectors etc, is sad. It feels as if the state is a potential battlefield.

[retiredguy123]

If you are going to own a gun in Florida, it makes sense to get a concealed carry permit, even if you have no intention to carry the gun outside of your house. You will get a good training class, and you will be able to transport the gun to another location without risking being charged with a gun crime. There are a lot of people with permits who never take their gun outside of their house.

[billethkid]

A statistic is presented and the state feels like a battle ground?
To each his/her own.

For those who are impressed with statistics here is a more serious issue than guns:

Texting and Driving Accident Statistics - Distracted Driving (https://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cause-of-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html)

Cell phone injuries and deaths suggest controls are more needed for cell phones than guns controls.
That will never happen because too many people have them hence no response to a real problem in our daily lives.

[anothersteve]

Wow! Those stats on gun permits are a surprise. I can see the “right” to arms as in the second amendment, but that so many people feel a need to have guns, unless they are collectors etc, is sad. It feels as if the state is a potential battlefield.

This is an old saying, but true as far as I'm concerned.
"I would rather have a gun on me and not need it, than need it and not have it"

That may sound paranoid to some, but believe me, it's for self protection, which is my right, and possibly the protection of others.
I'll admit, not once in my 62yrs on this earth have I ever come close to needing one, and hope I never do, but I still adhere to the saying above.
Steve

[Velvet]

The need to have a personal weapon, whether at home or in public, for me, comes out of fear. I enjoy gun clubs, I enjoy competition, but I prefer not to have to have to worry about break-ins to my home. Big factor in choosing TV. I don’t want to go to Winn-Dixie to pick out my veggies with a concealed weapon and Kevlar. I’d rather just put on a sundress and sandals. I don’t want to drive down any of the TV streets and if I make a mistake say on the round about, someone in road rage threatens to shoot me. (Anyway grenades are more effective in combat as you need less accuracy, or even low tech Molotov cocktails.)

What I am trying to say is, even though the second amendment gives the right to bear arms, it is better to be in a place that does not need it. I also have the right to become a truck driver, but it doesn’t mean I have to.

I prefer not to live in fear.

[anothersteve]

The need to have a personal weapon, whether at home or in public, for me, comes out of fear. I enjoy gun clubs, I enjoy competition, but I prefer not to have to have to worry about break-ins to my home. Big factor in choosing TV. I don’t want to go to Winn-Dixie to pick out my veggies with a concealed weapon. I’d rather just put on a sundress and sandals. I don’t want to drive down any of the TV streets and if I make a mistake say on the round about, someone in road rage threatens to shoot me. (Anyway grenades are more effective in combat as you need less accuracy.)

Your choice and I respect that.
I surely do not carry out of "fear", that is just your opinion, you do not know me.
Steve

[anothersteve]

Your choice and I respect that.
I surely do not carry out of "fear", that is just your opinion, you do not know me.
Steve
Sorry VelVet, I might've taken the "fear" thing a little out of context. I guess you meant your personal fear?
Steve

[Velvet]

I was talking about my fear. The fear my students might have.
Of course I respect your choice for yourself, it is a given.

[VApeople]

In the last 15 years, there have been several shootings at schools.

How many were caused by teachers that carried guns?

How many lives might have been saved if every teacher carried a gun and made an effort to kill the intruder who was killing the students?

[dewilson58]

The need to have a personal weapon, whether at home or in public, for me, comes out of fear.







:1rotfl:




Not fear.............I choose to protect my family if needed.


A good indicator is how many retired police officers carry or have guns at home.

[CFrance]

In the last 15 years, there have been several shootings at schools.

How many were caused by teachers that carried guns?

How many lives might have been saved if every teacher carried a gun and made an effort to kill the intruder who was killing the students?
But...? Teachers were never allowed to carry guns in school, so no shootings were caused by teachers that carried guns.

[Velvet]

I understand the drive to protect your family, believe me as a mother I really do. I think it is a noble effort.

[CFrance]

I understand the drive to protect your family, believe me as a mother I really do. I think it is a noble effort.
you made me think twice, Velvet. I normally stay out of gun right discussions and am not a gun owner, but now I'm thinking...

1. I think most teachers view their students, not quite but almost, like their kids. The need to protect them must be great and maybe with proper training, carrying guns might work.

2. Teachers carrying guns might deter kids from charging the shooter and getting killed. Recently it has been espoused that fighting is better than "flighting." But it usually means some innocent child gets killed.

It certainly could all go wrong. It's a conundrum.

[Taltarzac725]

you made me think twice, Velvet. I normally stay out of gun right discussions and am not a gun owner, but now I'm thinking...

1. I think most teachers view their students, not quite but almost, like their kids. The need to protect them must be great and maybe with proper training, carrying guns might work.

2. Teachers carrying guns might deter kids from charging the shooter and getting killed. Recently it has been espoused that fighting is better than "flighting." But it usually means some innocent child gets killed.

It certainly could all go wrong. It's a conundrum.

It probably would and will go wrong in certain situations. Being able to take someone else's life is also something I am not that sure most teachers could actually do. And that failure could lead to tragedy.

[anothersteve]

Being able to take someone else's life is also something I am not that sure most teachers could actually do. And that failure could lead to tragedy.

I feel teachers and faculty that are ready, willing, able and trained, to carry concealed in the schools, and we are not just talking carrying in classrooms here, would be the ones willing and prepared to take a life to try to save the children and themselves. The other option just might be the death of many.
Would you fight to the death to try and save your children if someone broke into your home and proceeded to rape and beat your son or daughter? What if you had access to a weapon? A firearm, a club, a knife,.........? Fight or flight,? Your kids lives depend on it.
Steve

[Viperguy]

Just the fact that there MAY be an armed teacher in the school most likely will accomplish the goal. I was armed in the cockpit of an airliner after 9-11 and since then there have been no cockpit breaches. Perhaps that did accomplish the goal but who knows. And based on the training we went through plus the continuous semi annual training there should be little to worry about with proficiency. JMHO

[Kenswing]

Just the fact that there MAY be an armed teacher in the school most likely will accomplish the goal. I was armed in the cockpit of an airliner after 9-11 and since then there have been no cockpit breaches. Perhaps that did accomplish the goal but who knows. And based on the training we went through plus the continuous semi annual training there should be little to worry about with proficiency. JMHO
But they also went to a hardened cockpit door with controlled access. That probably has as much to do with keeping people out as an armed pilot.

[Airis2thick]

If you want to know how this could work, look at the states that already have similar laws.
Some states have allowed this for years.

[anothersteve]

If you want to know how this could work, look at the states that already have similar laws.
Some states have allowed this for years.
Good point. I had t look it up

Redirect Notice (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwj9k77I5MbiAhVDw1kKHUKLDykQzPwBCAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcall.com%2Fnews%2Feducation %2Fmc-nws-guns-in-schools-list-20181108-story.html&psig=AOvVaw3YNQJgloFe3GCY_C52o6mY&ust=1559427042303693)

Steve

[Bucco]

If you want to know how this could work, look at the states that already have similar laws.
Some states have allowed this for years.

Yes, and it has been studied a bit.

As a break from all the macho talk by folks who will never be placed in the situation being discussed, maybe read some...example from NIH....

"
"Although no empirical evidence is currently available regarding whether arming teachers would deter gun violence in elementary and secondary school settings, we can extrapolate from existing research on the possible outcomes of such efforts. Research has shown that increased gun access and gun possession are not associated with protection from violence,6 which suggests that increasing the presence of guns in the hands of civilians in schools, no matter how well intentioned, may backfire. Furthermore, exposure to gun violence across a broader spectrum—hearing gunshots, witnessing gunfire, and knowing someone who has been injured with a firearm—can adversely affect a child’s health and development. Whether arming teachers would decrease these types of negative exposures is unclear."

Arming Schoolteachers: What Do We Know? Where Do We Go From Here? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5993409/)

We also should consider what we have learned from past experience and enact laws....a few exist, passed but senate refuses to bring to the floor.

I suggest I have no answer but in dealing with our children, we should act like adults.

[anothersteve]

Yes, and it has been studied a bit.

As a break from all the macho talk by folks who will never be placed in the situation being discussed, maybe read some...example from NIH....

"
"Al[B]though no empirical evidence is currently available regarding whether arming teachers would deter gun violence in elementary and secondary school settings, we can extrapolate from existing research on the possible outcomes of such efforts. Research has shown that increased gun access and gun possession are not associated with protection from violence,6 which suggests that increasing the presence of guns in the hands of civilians in schools, no matter how well intentioned, may backfire. Furthermore, exposure to gun violence

Arming Schoolteachers: What Do We Know? Where Do We Go From Here? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5993409/)

We also should consider what we have learned from past experience and enact laws....a few exist, passed but senate refuses to bring to the floor.

I suggest I have no answer but in dealing with our children, we should act like adults.

First I do not consider myself "macho", but if being macho means wanting to protect the children at all costs, then I guess I am.

Let's get to the above;

"no empirical evidence is currently available"
Empirical meaning: based on, concerned with. or "verifiable" by observation or experience, rather than theory or pure logic.

"we can extrapolate"
Extrapolate meaning; extend the application to an "unknown situation" by "assuming" that existing trends will continue or similar methods will be applicable.

"may" backfire."
no need to extrapolate

"across a broader spectrum—hearing gunshots, witnessing gunfire, and knowing someone who has been injured with a firearm—can adversely affect a child’s health and development. Whether arming teachers would decrease these types of negative exposures is unclear."
Would you rather them be dead?

"I suggest I have no answer but in dealing with our children, we should act like adults."

I have no cut and dry answer either, but in dealing with our children, we should protect them at all costs, and keep an open mind to all options.

Steve

[ColdNoMore]

Yes, and it has been studied a bit.

As a break from all the macho talk by folks who will never be placed in the situation being discussed, maybe read some...example from NIH....

"
"Although no empirical evidence is currently available regarding whether arming teachers would deter gun violence in elementary and secondary school settings, we can extrapolate from existing research on the possible outcomes of such efforts. Research has shown that increased gun access and gun possession are not associated with protection from violence,6 which suggests that increasing the presence of guns in the hands of civilians in schools, no matter how well intentioned, may backfire. Furthermore, exposure to gun violence across a broader spectrum—hearing gunshots, witnessing gunfire, and knowing someone who has been injured with a firearm—can adversely affect a child’s health and development. Whether arming teachers would decrease these types of negative exposures is unclear."

Arming Schoolteachers: What Do We Know? Where Do We Go From Here? (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5993409/)

We also should consider what we have learned from past experience and enact laws....a few exist, passed but senate refuses to bring to the floor.

I suggest I have no answer but in dealing with our children, we should act like adults.

Excellent post...with a great link. :thumbup:

As far as enacting any new laws, look at how darned long it took from the tragedy of Las Vegas...until the national bump stock ban went into effect. :oops:

The Founding Father's couldn't imagine, in their wildest dreams, the weapons now available (not to even get into the fact that there wasn't a standing army back then, which every citizen having a gun was needed in case of a war) and yet there are so many constantly screaming..."The Second Amendment, The Second Amendment, The..." :ohdear:

[Bucco]

While I offer no solution, I am reluctant about arming teachers and offer this...

"claim that “gun-free zones” invite mass shootings has been thoroughly debunked by research showing that the overwhelming majority—nearly 90%—of all high-fatality gun massacres since 1966 have occurred wholly or partly in locations where civilian guns were allowed or there was armed security or law enforcement present.11

Guns in Schools | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/guns-in-public/guns-in-schools/)

[Taltarzac725]

While I offer no solution, I am reluctant about arming teachers and offer this...

"claim that “gun-free zones” invite mass shootings has been thoroughly debunked by research showing that the overwhelming majority—nearly 90%—of all high-fatality gun massacres since 1966 have occurred wholly or partly in locations where civilian guns were allowed or there was armed security or law enforcement present.11

Guns in Schools | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/guns-in-public/guns-in-schools/)

I love seeing links in arguments. It is my librarian training. And links to reliable resources.

[ColdNoMore]

I love seeing links in arguments. It is my librarian training. And links to reliable resources.

Intelligent and decent people want legitimate and truthful information, which links can provide, while all too many others eschew anything that doesn't fit their own confirmation bias...and become confused (sometimes even angry) with 'actual facts.' :ohdear:

[anothersteve]

Intelligent and decent people want legitimate and truthful information, which links can provide, while all too many others eschew anything that doesn't fit their own confirmation bias...and become confused (sometimes even angry) with 'actual facts.' :ohdear:

"while all too many others eschew anything that doesn't fit their own confirmation bias.."

You do realize it can work both ways, don't you?

Steve

[Bucco]

"while all too many others eschew anything that doesn't fit their own confirmation bias.."

You do realize it can work both ways, don't you?

Steve

It absolutely can...I agree.

Have any links I can read....I, like Tal, appreciate them myself but never see much.

[Moderator]

Several posts have been deleted as directed at member. Please return to discussing the topic or the thread will be closed.

Moderator

[Bucco]

Several posts have been deleted as directed at member. Please return to discussing the topic or the thread will be closed.

Moderator

Thank you

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If I were a crazed, but skilled psychopath with a gun, and I knew that teachers were allowed to have firearms in the classroom, it'd be pretty simple: kill the teacher first. Then take their gun, and use it to kill the students. My totally crazed psychopathic brain would find the irony of that gloriously magnificent.

Be grateful that I'm not one of those, AND that the teachers in classrooms of schools I've been to and live near, aren't allowed to have firearms in the classroom.

[Cedwards38]

No. It's a ridiculous idea. If you must have guns in schools then let it be security guards who choose that line of work.

[Boomer]

Arming teachers is an asinine idea, beyond stupid. There is nothing about it that is in the best interests of education.

The agenda behind it is the ultimate example of passing the buck, kicking the can down the road. — The top must stop abdicating taking responsibility for doing what it takes to find, fund, and implement a real solution.

This thing is going to grow arms and legs that a lot of people cannot even imagine.

I think money should be spent on whatever it takes to make it as hard to enter a school with a gun as it is to get through the doors to Congress with a gun.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to teach now. I sure wouldn’t.

“Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Teachers”


Sincerely,
Mrs. Boomer (35 years, secondary ed, armed only with a disarming smile and/or a darned stern look-in-the-eye when necessary) — loved it (most days) Now days? Never!

[ColdNoMore]

Arming teachers is an asinine idea, beyond stupid. There is nothing about it that is in the best interests of education.

The agenda behind it is the ultimate example of passing the buck, kicking the can down the road. — The top must stop abdicating taking responsibility for doing what it takes to find, fund, and implement a real solution.

This thing is going to grow arms and legs that a lot of people cannot even imagine.

I think money should be spent on whatever it takes to make it as hard to enter a school with a gun as it is to get through the doors to Congress with a gun.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to teach now. I sure wouldn’t.

“Mamas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Teachers”


Sincerely,
Mrs. Boomer (35 years, secondary ed, armed only with a disarming smile and/or a darned stern look-in-the-eye when necessary) — loved it (most days) Now days? Never!

:bigbow:

[manaboutown]

When I went to my 30th high school class reunion back in 1990 I ran into a classmate I knew who was designing schools. It shocked me at the time when he told me they were installing metal detectors at the entrances. Now that was almost 30 years ago so guns, knives and razor blades had become problematic in schools even back then.

I recall one guy I knew and was quite wary of even in grade school had one day come to high school with a .22 rifle down one leg of his jeans. He was walking around stiff-legged. Apparently he wanted to shoot another guy who was trying to date his girlfriend. The gun toter showed up at a reunion but I kept my distance.

[Velvet]

Thank you, Boomer for saying so succinctly what I was trying to say too. I suspect that arming teacher seems like a cheaper alternative to having specialized personnel or metal detectors in schools. People have not thought through what kind of teachers they would get if this policy were in place.

“Guns for hire, needs to be able to teach English Lit too.”

[Number 10 GI]

Wow! Those stats on gun permits are a surprise. I can see the “right” to arms as in the second amendment, but that so many people feel a need to have guns, unless they are collectors etc, is sad. It feels as if the state is a potential battlefield.
There are violent and vicious people in this world that have absolutely no respect for another person's life and will kill without a bit of remorse. Thankfully the odds of being killed by one of these animals is pretty low but when you are one of that small percentage it makes for a very bad day. I'm nearly 72 with a bad heart and arthritis. I definitely can't stand toe to toe with a young thug and slug it out. I can't out run one either so the only choice I have is to take a beating and possible die from it, or carry a gun to give myself a better chance of avoiding a beating. I much prefer carrying a concealed firearm and not need it than to not carry a gun and need it. Do I like this, NO, it distressed me greatly that everyone can't be a decent person and treat everyone well.

[ColdNoMore]

Thank you, Boomer for saying so succinctly what I was trying to say too. I suspect that arming teacher seems like a cheaper alternative to having specialized personnel or metal detectors in schools. People have not thought through what kind of teachers they would get if this policy were in place.

“Guns for hire, needs to be able to teach English Lit too.”

:thumbup:

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I don't know but perhaps we've come to the time when everyone must enter a school through one entrance only.
Everyone would have to pass through a metal detector, in type like those in all government buildings.
Of course, the entry would have to be manned all day by highly trained personnel.

It would be great if there was another solution, but I'm not sure there is.

[manaboutown]

I don't know but perhaps we've come to the time when everyone must enter a school through one entrance only.
Everyone would have to pass through a metal detector, in type like those in all government buildings.
Of course, the entry would have to be manned all day by highly trained personnel.

It would be great if there was another solution, but I'm not sure there is.

In recent years at my old high school which now lies in "The War Zone" of Albuquerque some of the girls hide razor blades in their hair which they use to reach out and slash other girls as they pass in the halls. Any metal detectors installed would need to be very sensitive and properly operated to find them.

What is Albuquerque's 'War Zone' and why is it call that way? - Quora (https://www.quora.com/What-is-Albuquerques-War-Zone-and-why-is-it-call-that-way)

It happens elsewhere as well. NYPD: Suspect in Queens school fight hid razor blades in her hair; 3 hurt | abc7ny.com (http://abc7ny.com/news/nypd-suspect-in-school-fight-hid-razor-blades-in-her-hair;-3-hurt/1995757/)

[Taltarzac725]

In recent years at my old high school which now lies in "The War Zone" of Albuquerque some of the girls hide razor blades in their hair which they use to reach out and slash other girls as they pass in the halls. Any metal detectors installed would need to be very sensitive and properly operated to find them.

What is Albuquerque's 'War Zone' and why is it call that way? - Quora (https://www.quora.com/What-is-Albuquerques-War-Zone-and-why-is-it-call-that-way)

It happens elsewhere as well. NYPD: Suspect in Queens school fight hid razor blades in her hair; 3 hurt | abc7ny.com (http://abc7ny.com/news/nypd-suspect-in-school-fight-hid-razor-blades-in-her-hair;-3-hurt/1995757/)

Did not know that Albuquerque had those kind of problems.

I traveled to El Paso in December of 2000 for an interview with the University of Texas at El Paso Library and their President and they had mentioned how safe El Paso was. And my research kind of showed that they were right.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

In recent years at my old high school which now lies in "The War Zone" of Albuquerque some of the girls hide razor blades in their hair which they use to reach out and slash other girls as they pass in the halls. Any metal detectors installed would need to be very sensitive and properly operated to find them.

What is Albuquerque's 'War Zone' and why is it call that way? - Quora (https://www.quora.com/What-is-Albuquerques-War-Zone-and-why-is-it-call-that-way)

It happens elsewhere as well. NYPD: Suspect in Queens school fight hid razor blades in her hair; 3 hurt | abc7ny.com (http://abc7ny.com/news/nypd-suspect-in-school-fight-hid-razor-blades-in-her-hair;-3-hurt/1995757/)


Whew! Razor blades in their hair??? That's pretty bad; no -- that's nasty!

Are there metal detectors that would pick up razor blades in someone's hair? Are the cameras at airports able to do that?

I also forgot to add to my comment that schools need to have cameras everywhere. And I mean really good cameras and not the 7-11 variety type

[dewilson58]

There are violent and vicious people in this world that have absolutely no respect for another person's life and will kill without a bit of remorse. Thankfully the odds of being killed by one of these animals is pretty low but when you are one of that small percentage it makes for a very bad day. I'm nearly 72 with a bad heart and arthritis. I definitely can't stand toe to toe with a young thug and slug it out. I can't out run one either so the only choice I have is to take a beating and possible die from it, or carry a gun to give myself a better chance of avoiding a beating. I much prefer carrying a concealed firearm and not need it than to not carry a gun and need it. Do I like this, NO, it distressed me greatly that everyone can't be a decent person and treat everyone well.




Thank you for a real-world example...............may you never need it.

[retiredguy123]

It seems very inefficient and lopsided to dedicate huge sums of money on making it harder for someone to commit a mass killing at a school. There are lots of other places where the same crime could be committed. I think it may be more productive to focus on changing how schools are designed and operated as far as how students are taught, how many students need to be in the same room at the same time, and how interaction with students is accomplished.

[manaboutown]

Did not know that Albuquerque had those kind of problems.

Albuquerque is now robbery capital of US (https://www.koat.com/article/albuquerque-is-now-robbery-capital-of-us/23512788?fbclid=IwAR07QBHm_CTfgnfDcVEiMtjFdTp169vb rVnqW22i786z86cLOf7Qyuq8WrI)

[Taltarzac725]

Albuquerque is now robbery capital of US (https://www.koat.com/article/albuquerque-is-now-robbery-capital-of-us/23512788?fbclid=IwAR07QBHm_CTfgnfDcVEiMtjFdTp169vb rVnqW22i786z86cLOf7Qyuq8WrI)

Sad. I went through Albuquerque a few times on trips from Denver to Reno and back. I used to take a lot of very long detours usually to see my Great Uncle Roberto who lived near Arizona State University in Tempe, AZ.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It seems very inefficient and lopsided to dedicate huge sums of money on making it harder for someone to commit a mass killing at a school. There are lots of other places where the same crime could be committed. I think it may be more productive to focus on changing how schools are designed and operated as far as how students are taught, how many students need to be in the same room at the same time, and how interaction with students is accomplished.

It'd be even more efficient and even-handed to make it harder for someone to commit a mass killing, period. Regardless of location.

Maybe someone should come up with the concept of hm, I dunno, adding semi-automatics to the already-existing list of "arms that civilians aren't allowed to buy." Or simply return the AR-15 to the list, where it used to be until it was removed. Would it prevent all mass killings? Nope. Would it make it more difficult to commit them? Yup.

[Fredster]

Maybe as a society we should address identifying
deranged individuals in more creative and successful ways!

[BobnBev]

I worry more about the malls. Very target rich environment.:ohdear:

[Moderator]

Just a reminder...the topic was about arming teachers in schools. If it continues to stray into general gun control/legislation discussion, it will be closed.

Moderator

[armyguyot1]

I am a teacher and former military. I have fired weapons that most have never even heard of. I cannot use my skills with guns to protect my kids and that's by contract. A person with a concealed permit can carry on campus but not a teacher. There are many pitfalls to arming teachers but the biggest problem I have in prohibiting it is letting the potential shooter know the teachers are unarmed. I think the carry or not carry needs to be a personal one. Someone needs to have a permit. Having a potential shooter not know if the teachers are armed, I believe is an advantage.
My alternative being prohibited? I had and have a stick. One of the first things I learned in the military was how to defend myself legally with the stick. I learned how to kill with it while holding it with two hands as a defensive weapon. In close combat a person with a knife is at a disadvantage and a person with a gun is on pretty level plain. I need to get close. I have about 50 feet to the door. I am an auto mechanics teacher and have a Chevrolet lower timing gear on my desk. A dual roller chain lower gear that looks a lot like a fighting star. I need the gear to throw to buy the 2 seconds I need to close the gap and get close with my stick. My students are briefed to leave through the back door, go and keep going and don't look back and I will deal with it. Most shooters are not experienced or particularly talented. They will duck the gear coming, buying the time I need to get close and dangerous.
I have a plan. If I die trying, tough nooggies. I will not be executed period. Any plan is better than nothing. I am a military pilot and when an emergency happens you will do what you are trained to do. I am in not in favor of prohibiting guns on teachers as the shooter should not be assured of no guns on campus. I caused a change at our school as now the "fight back" is the standard and not just hide and die.

[OlifOlif]

YES!

Not only they should carry guns, but to make sure that those that brings guns should be stopped in their tracks!!

You can tell the type that would bring a gun to school! You know how!!! I sure do!

[Ruggiero56]

As a teacher for 30 plus years and a competitive member of the hand gun club of my university I say; No! Guns, grenades and bombs have no business in the classroom.

Agree. Not a responsibility teachers should take on. Imagine a shooting situation and the police arrive and shout an armed teacher by mistake thinking they might be the shooter. Very bad idea!

[cwhitecat]

Why not. Our children deserve the same level of protection as anyone else. Why do you think the shooters pick schools. Because it
Is so east to get access with a gun and kill many before they can be stopped. They should have the same level of protection of our government and paid for by our government.

[dewilson58]

Agree. Not a responsibility teachers should take on. Imagine a shooting situation and the police arrive and shout an armed teacher by mistake thinking they might be the shooter. Very bad idea!




See posts 55 & 51

[wsachs]

Teachers today face budget cuts, pensions taken away, Sec of Ed who seems to hate teachers, parents who daily badmouth teachers, unsupportive parents, states who underfund education. And you want them to shield your child? You're nuts. Teachers are leaving the profession in less than five years because they are not supported.

[TNLAKEPANDA]

I agree and support teachers being allowed to carry. Most will not be interested in doing so. The training is Very Extensive. More so than you might imagine. We already know that gun free zones are a joke and a prime target 🎯

[luperona9]

Teachers today face budget cuts, pensions taken away, Sec of Ed who seems to hate teachers, parents who daily badmouth teachers, unsupportive parents, states who underfund education. And you want them to shield your child? You're nuts. Teachers are leaving the profession in less than five years because they are not supported.

Great point.

Please provide the proposed legislation that would require a teacher to shield students or carry a weapon!?

I will check back.


O dear. O dear

[Mikee1]

Well, first, anyone wanting to carry in school most likely has ben around guns all their lives.

Second, it is easy for a coward to pick a safe place to ambush, if schools had armed staff it would not be as safe. Even if no one that a certain school it would not be known, thus making the risk unknown.

Third, carrying or not, no one can prevent an ambush, however an armed good guy can drastically shorten the duration of one.

The dumbest thing ever started was posting signs stating "Gun Free Zone". There are drug laws everywhere, so how can there be a drug problem. You get the idea...

YES, I am in favor of the opportunity for staff to carry and remove the stupid Gun Free Zone signs.

[Hifred]

My husband and I work for Chicago Public Schools. Children as well as visitors go through metal detectors in the morning with security guards checking bags like at the airport. They also check the bags and anyone returning into the building after a fire drill goes through metal detectors. There are two armed police officers in the buildings and a full security staff. No in school shootings. Why wouldn't schools hire trained police officers and a well trained security staff? I am city wide and have been in hundreds of buildings in Chicago and our police staff do an excellent job as do our security staff. Teachers are in schools to educate children not to carry guns.

[NOlinger]

Having worked most of my career on public high school and college campuses, I see great benefit for firearms-trained staff and faculty to carry. Sadly, no place is safe anymore and advertising gun-free zones only invites criminal behavior as a soft target.

[It's Hot There]

My husband and I work for Chicago Public Schools. Children as well as visitors go through metal detectors in the morning with security guards checking bags like at the airport. They also check the bags and anyone returning into the building after a fire drill goes through metal detectors. There are two armed police officers in the buildings and a full security staff. No in school shootings. Why wouldn't schools hire trained police officers and a well trained security staff? I am city wide and have been in hundreds of buildings in Chicago and our police staff do an excellent job as do our security staff. Teachers are in schools to educate children not to carry guns.



Very costly...………..Chicago Schools are carrying $8B in debt. City of Chicago is bankrupt.

[Best2bgolfing]

Teachers impart there education onto our students. They receive modest compensation for this. If they feel the need or agree with the reasoning of them having a gun on there person we should support them. We should not strip away there rights to carry arms at our will. In today’s society it is foolish to think anywhere is safe and will be absent of extreme violence.
Metal detectors cannot detect all weapon types. Annually many education facilities have extreme violence incidences. The first line of prevention is knowing defense.
This is a silly example. Would a robber try to hold up a bar where 300 hells angles were having a rest stop on the way to a meet. The same reasoning if a educational facility had a staff of 125. And all of that staff was able to carry a gun. Would the potential shooter go inside sporting a gun, I don’t think so.

[allsport]

No, absolutely not. Most teachers are very young and if you are a police officer they go through much more training. As the wife of a retired federal agent and a nurse, nothing could make me change my mind. Police officer have an accuracy problem in live shooting incidents. Adrenalin runs through you blood and causes you to shake many instances. Teachers who go through a few weeks of training have no business with guns. Police officers have accidentally discharged their guns twice in Publix in the last few weeks, teachers make no sense. They went to school to teach not shoot people or kids.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Why not. Our children deserve the same level of protection as anyone else. Why do you think the shooters pick schools. Because it
Is so east to get access with a gun and kill many before they can be stopped. They should have the same level of protection of our government and paid for by our government.

Then put armed guards in the schools. Teachers are not guards. That isn't their purpose. Teachers should be concentrating on teaching. Guards should concentrate on protecting.

[luperona9]

Then put armed guards in the schools. Teachers are not guards. That isn't their purpose. Teachers should be concentrating on teaching. Guards should concentrate on protecting.So a teacher volunteering to carry his own legal firearm in school after having additional training will make that teacher unable to concentrate on teaching?

Really trying to see the logic of many of these posts.

[EvelynEvagash]

Absolutely No no no no. I am from Newtown -- Sandy Hook. No guns for teachers and no military weapons for anyone else. Change the law!! We are not fighting England anymore. Besides even the police in England do not carry guns.

[psoccermom]

You need to get the 'Gun Free Zone' removed from schools. They are sitting targets for these people that want to do great harm. If it's not known how many armed people are in the school, these evil people will think twice before entering. (A retired teacher)

[Bucco]

so many posters who have never taught or managed a classroom and who seem to be very "macho" with situations that they will never find them selves in are advocating for arming teachers.

It is also interesting to note that most school districts oppose the new law, and it is they, the school districts who will make the final call on whether it happens in their district.

Florida school districts push back against bill to arm teachers | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-arming-teachers-school-districts-push-back-bill)

I keep thinking back to the most recent mass shooting. ONE man engaged in a gun fight with 4 armed and trained officers and those officers used all of their ammo before finally taking him down. AFTER 12 DIED

If you translate the same event to a school and a classroom, there seem to be a lot of reasons not to have teachers involved in a gun battle.

I totally understand the sentiment about protecting our children, but common sense seems to be less considered than macho talk among those who will never ever be involved, and the simply "pooh poohing" the ease of being armed, the watered down approval for gun toting takes precedence over any consideration of anything else except arm and shoot.

[Mike the mailman]

Yes, protect self and your kids, also expect a large pay raise from school. You might just save the lives of many.

[DMoring]

I'm a gun owner but I'm not smart enough to know the answer to that question. If they do carry guns I think the librarians should also carry and have to use silencers. LOL

[36hoot@gmail.com]

I believe there would be considerable less school shootings if the shooter knew there was a possibility the every teacher he encounters may be armed.

[luperona9]

I'm a gun owner but I'm not smart enough to know the answer to that question. If they do carry guns I think the librarians should also carry and have to use silencers. LOLOk pretty funny, but there is No such thing as a silencer.

[luperona9]

I believe there would be considerable less school shootings if the shooter knew there was a possibility the every teacher he encounters may be armed.Of course. Very common sense.

[regas56]

So a teacher volunteering to carry his own legal firearm in school after having additional training will make that teacher unable to concentrate on teaching?

Really trying to see the logic of many of these posts.

Agreed... if you are well trained concealed carrying a weapon is as natural as carrying your wallet or cell phone. However if you are afraid of a gun than for heavens sake leave it in your safe..

[anothersteve]

I keep thinking back to the most recent mass shooting. ONE man engaged in a gun fight with 4 armed and trained officers and those officers used all of their ammo before finally taking him down. AFTER 12 DIED


The 12 people were shot BEFORE the police got there, what does that tell you? And at this point it's not even known until the autopsy is completed if the shooter took his own life or was killed by a cops fire.
Steve

[regas56]

No, absolutely not. Most teachers are very young and if you are a police officer they go through much more training. As the wife of a retired federal agent and a nurse, nothing could make me change my mind. Police officer have an accuracy problem in live shooting incidents. Adrenalin runs through you blood and causes you to shake many instances. Teachers who go through a few weeks of training have no business with guns. Police officers have accidentally discharged their guns twice in Publix in the last few weeks, teachers make no sense. They went to school to teach not shoot people or kids.

What you say may be true BUT... There are only two things that will stop a madman with a gun...he runs out of bullets OR another gun. being unarmed makes us a victim being armed at least you have a chance..

[regas56]

Once you pull that trigger, whether right or wrong,be prepared for a law suit. Plan on spending a minimum of $100,000, or losing everything you've worked for. There is insurance that covers that kind of thing, but probably very expensive. I wonder how many people in TV actually have it? Speak up.
Actually you can get the insurance through the NRA and it's quite inexpensive.. If a person needs to pull the trigger to save their or a loved ones life me thinks a lawsuit is the least of their problem at the time..

[Danz654]

I agree trained teacher should allowed to have a gun. Key word trained. Plus there has to be a safe and secure place for the firearm at all times

[Bucco]

The 12 people were shot BEFORE the police got there, what does that tell you? And at this point it's not even known until the autopsy is completed if the shooter took his own life or was killed by a cops fire.
Steve

"Four officers entered the building after the call of shots fired was made to police shortly after 4 p.m., Friday. Police Chief Jim Cervera said that the officers arrived within minutes after the first call to dispatch, and were able to find the suspect after hearing gunfire. They then engaged in a long-term gun battle with the suspect, the chief said."

Police engaged in ‘long-term gun battle’ during Virginia Beach fatal mass shooting | WTKR.com (https://wtkr.com/2019/05/31/police-engaged-in-long-term-gun-battle-during-virginia-beach-fatal-mass-shooting/)

So, its not clear how many were killed and when, nor how much was related to getting into a gun battle.

Make no mistake....I am for security and perhaps this is an answer.

My entire point was that on this forum we are talking MACHO television stuff as if that were the real world, and the discussion is among those who can easily speak so mach as they will never
be in the situation and oh man is that easy to talk about.

How many lives would have been saved if a) the officers came early or b) came later or c) never faced gunfire from officers which was returned

I dont know....you dont know....hopefully once the investigation is over, we all know.

Just jumping to gunfight mode seems wrong to me, especially when young children are involved. My wife taught elementary school for over 30 years, albeit in a different time, but I would suggest resigning if she worked for a school district allowed this to occur.

If you have been in combat, you know that your reaction is much much different than you imagined it would be. Having a teacher to confront an armed person, hell bent on killing everyone including himself and without knowledge of his weaponary is a scary thought, to me anyway

[Velvet]

The depressed and probably bullied student who is bent upon killing but knows they will be shot, will go to school with a suicide vest, you can bet on it.
I still think the way to reduce school shootings is to teach empathy, social skills, and conflict resolution. Those skills work everywhere and last a lifetime.

[Bucco]

The depressed and probably bullied student who is bent upon killing but knows they will be shot, will go to school with a suicide vest, you can bet on it.
I still think the way to reduce school shootings is to teach empathy, social skills, and conflict resolution. Those skills work everywhere and last a lifetime.

Boy, hate to be pessimistic but in this world there is a fat chance of anyone caring about empathy, etc.

An elementary student seeing his teacher gunned down will leave very serious emotional scars, AND by the way this nation has simply pushed aside the survivors of other school shooting, little in the way of nation empathy should be expected.

[ColdNoMore]

The depressed and probably bullied student who is bent upon killing but knows they will be shot, will go to school with a suicide vest, you can bet on it.
I still think the way to reduce school shootings is to teach empathy, social skills, and conflict resolution.

Those skills work everywhere and last a lifetime.

I totally agree that would be ideal, but unfortunately there will still be those that will always prefer hate, prejudice, animosity, confrontation and anger towards those who are different (that "difference" taking many forms)...or which they don't share viewpoints/opinions. :(

One thing is for sure though, teaching those things you mentioned at an early age and having a 'zero-tolerance' toward bullying and physical aggressiveness...would be an excellent start.

[Velvet]

It is possible to teach empathy, especially if you start at a young age and also resilience. Dr. Seligman has started to work on resilience training before deployment to reduce PTSD. It is our amygdala, our reptilian brain, that reacts in a primitive mode but we can calm it and over ride it.
Oh, and I don’t believe in giving up. I would not have become an educator if I though people were incapable of learning and change.

[luperona9]

Everyone in the know is keenly aware as to why the parkland school shooting was not easily avoided.

[SANDRAJANE]

Teachers have an awesome task of instilling in their students the desire to learn and teaching them how to put to use the knowledge they acquire. That, in itself, is a very stressful full-time job. To burden these qualified people with the added responsibility of looking out for their students if a lock-down should occur and having the task of keeping a gun secure until they felt they needed it is enough of a stressful situation even for law enforcement officials who have been fully trained to do their job. They cannot be expected to have two full-time jobs at one time. Many teachers have helped keep children safe in a very precarious situation just by directing them properly where to hide from a deranged gunman. The responsibility is too great to be given the extra burden of training to have them using a gun in a hostile environment under such stressful circumstances. Hire more school guards and take appropriate measures to alert everyone of a hostile situation with modern tech devices that can be used instantaneously. No Guns

[Two Bills]

Absolutely No no no no. I am from Newtown -- Sandy Hook. No guns for teachers and no military weapons for anyone else. Change the law!! We are not fighting England anymore. Besides even the police in England do not carry guns.
You have not been over for a while.
Whilst the normal bobby is unarmed, there are now a lot of armed response units.
Our nutters prefer to stab people anyway!

[Bucco]

Everyone in the know is keenly aware as to why the parkland school shooting was not easily avoided.

I suppose, unlike you, I am simply unaware as you say.

BUT, I was also under the impression this thread was not about any specific shooting but general.

But again, I am not "in the know"

[Velvet]

Are you saying that if Nicolas Cruz, the shooter, had started in elementary school where there were lessons in empathy, resilience, conflict resolution, how to deal with bullying etc that it could not have made a difference? He was expelled, sort of like the Virginia mass shooter who was fired. Is there a common theme here?

[Bucco]

Are you saying that if Nicolas Cruz, the shooter, had started in elementary school where there were lessons in empathy, resilience, conflict resolution, how to deal with bullying etc that it could not have made a difference? He was expelled, sort of like the Virginia mass shooter who was fired. Is there a common theme here?

I do not know the psychology of it all, but one common thing is they all feel "put upon" or a "victim".

A concept shared by most I think....will take adjustments to that, but seems to me, feeling a victim and needing a way to "show" everybody and blame everyone else is common.

[luperona9]

Are you saying that if Nicolas Cruz, the shooter, had started in elementary school where there were lessons in empathy, resilience, conflict resolution, how to deal with bullying etc that it could not have made a difference? He was expelled, sort of like the Virginia mass shooter who was fired. Is there a common theme here?Yes! The school broke it "promise" to the school, the community and especially the families of the dead.

Most likely nothing has changed. Parkland is just one example, one of the most obvious.

Sad.


Promises broken ...

Guidance / Promise Program (https://www.browardschools.com/Page/19571)

[luperona9]

Yes! The school broke it "promise" to the school, the community and especially the families of the dead.

Most likely nothing has changed. Parkland is just one example, one of the most obvious.

Sad.


Promises broken ...

Guidance / Promise Program (https://www.browardschools.com/Page/19571)"A specific set of code of conduct violations has been identified by a cross-community collaborative workgroup, as being appropriate infractions for which participation in PROMISE [misdemeanors that do not raise to the level of serious challenges to public safety, bullying and harassment] would be an appropriate intervention."

They are begging for more shootings. Serious changes of administration is needed.

[Velvet]

In our schools, from kindergarten on, there is a series of ways of identifying students who need special help, and these students are often placed in appropriate settings to get it. By the time they get to high school the teachers would know what to expect and what may work with these students. The teens are a very difficult time for most students. Their adult brain has not developed until age 25. The “misfits” need extra help, and guidance and direction to get through the ‘teen angst” years and beyond.

[Love2Swim]

Why is this thread still going? It is clearly political. And for the record, I've played golf with many retired teachers, and they all scoff at the idea of guns in schools. We need better gun laws, universal background checks, better gun safety training, and we need to outlaw military type guns. Who really needs to own an AK-47? Require mental health professionals to report people who might be dangerous. Enforce laws that restrict gun access for people under domestic violence restraining orders. Ban large capacity ammunition magazines. And as Velvet mentioned above, give training to teachers to identify the problem kids who might have a propensity for gun violence, and work with the kids to possibly prevent a mass killing.

[luperona9]

Maybe those same retired teachers say the opposite in a different setting.

ALL the retired and current teachers I know are in favor of guns in schools and in trained teachers hands.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I believe there would be considerable less school shootings if the shooter knew there was a possibility the every teacher he encounters may be armed.

Unless there are metal detectors at the doors, it is already possible that every teacher he encounters may be armed. Even then it's possible. Unless you think teachers aren't capable of breaking the law and carrying even if it is a gun-free zone?

I personally don't feel there should be any "gun-free" or "gun-allowed" zones in schools. These terms shouldn't even come up in conversation.

If the killer has reason to think the teachers might be armed, it'll just make the killer shoot the teachers first. Problem solved, and now he can proceed to killing everyone else.

If he thinks the teachers aren't armed, then it won't matter who he goes after first.

In either situation, both teachers and students are at risk of death. In the first situation though, it's pretty much a guarantee that the teachers will die first. That is the ONLY thing that arming teachers will accomplish.

[sallybowron]

As a teacher for 30 plus years and a competitive member of the hand gun club of my university I say; No! Guns, grenades and bombs have no business in the classroom.

I completely agree with this poster. Guns in the class room is a horrid idea. I taught for 13 years and many chances for a child to get to a gun arose in the classroom. Kids, particularly boys, will be drawn toward "just Holding" the gun. Even if it is put in the back waistband of the teacher they would have to stop going up and down the isles to keep a child from reaching for it. This is just too dangerous a situation for the classroom no matter how much training a teacher gets. The entrances need to be monitored more so the shooters can't get in. The kids will NOT be trained. :thumbup:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It is possible to teach empathy, especially if you start at a young age and also resilience. Dr. Seligman has started to work on resilience training before deployment to reduce PTSD. It is our amygdala, our reptilian brain, that reacts in a primitive mode but we can calm it and over ride it.
Oh, and I don’t believe in giving up. I would not have become an educator if I though people were incapable of learning and change.

Teaching these things is a great idea. But that takes time. While you're waiting for everyone to learn what you're teaching them, SOMEONE has to protect the kids. I think people whose primary job is to protect them, should protect them. Teachers should not be those people, because their primary job is to teach.

[armyguyot1]

I think you give the shooters more credit than they deserve. They are some dumb assed kids that don't know how to use a gun or prioritize targets. I do believe that there is a deterrent affect if they didn't know the school was gun free but as far as taking the teachers first or the order of targets is well beyond the scope. They are not too smart and scared spitless. Thank god they are so poor at what they do or the death tole would be much higher. I think they for the most part have some experience with weapons from video games which desensitize them but can give them some simulator skills.

[Velvet]

I believe that trained personnel in schools is an effective measure to stop armed violence, as I mentioned before about the incident we had at my school. But not the teacher. Our librarian was very trained, but by accident, can’t have a Mossad trained individual in every school. We were lucky to have her.

When I advocate for the students, even the misfits, I am looking at the long run, the future generation, how we can give them better tools to cope with.
Look at the telephone and how far it has come, we can do the same thing in education.

And no, the ship has not sailed, IMHO. We are capable of evolving.

[Trayderjoe]

Just read an article on a Crime Prevention Research Center study in which they analyzed nearly 20 years of comprehensive data from reliable, respected sources including the National School Safety Centers (NSSC) report, “School Associated Violent Deaths” and the Washington Post’s database of school shootings. The report indicates that as far back as January 2000, there has not been a single mass public shooting between 6 AM and midnight in any school that allows teachers and staff to carry guns legally. Here is a link (https://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/major-new-research-on-school-safety-schools-that-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns-havent-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/) to the abstract. There are links to the paper and the data on the abstract webpage.

[Velvet]

A depressed and suicidal student is not going to be worried about who is armed. They have already given up on people and themselves. They will only be figuring out how to overcome the obstacles.

This is my view from my life experiences. I understand if other people have different views. But as Bucco said, we will do best if we listen to each other and consider the various points. We have the same goal of keeping our children and students safe. We need to look at what is feasible and cost effective and educational.

[Bucco]

A depressed and suicidal student is not going to be worried about who is armed. They have already given up on people and themselves. They will only be figuring out how to overcome the obstacles.

Do you not believe that would apply to any of those who attempt mass shootings ?

[Velvet]

Yes, they have given up.

[PugMom]

YES! certain teachers that feel comfortable around weapons should most def be allowed to carry

[regas56]

Why is this thread still going? It is clearly political. And for the record, I've played golf with many retired teachers, and they all scoff at the idea of guns in schools. We need better gun laws, universal background checks, better gun safety training, and we need to outlaw military type guns. Who really needs to own an AK-47? Require mental health professionals to report people who might be dangerous. Enforce laws that restrict gun access for people under domestic violence restraining orders. Ban large capacity ammunition magazines. And as Velvet mentioned above, give training to teachers to identify the problem kids who might have a propensity for gun violence, and work with the kids to possibly prevent a mass killing.
Nobody NEEDS an AK47 just like nobody NEEDS a Super Bike that will do 185 MPH or a ZRI Corvette that will do 220 MPH but in America if you want one and it is legal than it's our own choice.. According to the FBI gun database website out of 60 THOUSAND gun deaths in 2016 less than 500 were caused by a "military" style weapon so wouldn't banning them be akin to banning Ibuprofen in an effort to curb the opioid overdose death crisis in America? Maybe we should concentrate more on the suicide victims (2/3 of the total gun deaths) and gang/drug related another 15 thousand and watch our gun death totals drop like a rock over time. Finally how about we NEVER post the name or picture of a Mass Killer, isn't that what they want.... notoriety, don't give that to them.. Just my humble opinion..

[Bucco]

Why is this thread still going? It is clearly political. And for the record, I've played golf with many retired teachers, and they all scoff at the idea of guns in schools. We need better gun laws, universal background checks, better gun safety training, and we need to outlaw military type guns. Who really needs to own an AK-47? Require mental health professionals to report people who might be dangerous. Enforce laws that restrict gun access for people under domestic violence restraining orders. Ban large capacity ammunition magazines. And as Velvet mentioned above, give training to teachers to identify the problem kids who might have a propensity for gun violence, and work with the kids to possibly prevent a mass killing.

It does get into an area we are told to stay away from, but I think the mods allow a bit more room with a legitimate discussion of a topic that is real.

I keep thinking that our elected officials are under the same restraints as are on TOTV.......that is.....do not talk about it, because that might be the beginning of finding solutions.

[Barborv]

I am for it. Any teacher or staff member feeling uncomfortable with it, obviously wouldn't take part. There are many people who hunt and are NRA members and vets that know their way around a gun. As far as these gun free zones, is ridiculous that it's advertised . You never hear of a school shooting in Israel! That's because all the teachers carry! Unfortunately, these guns are getting into the hands of people with mental instability. A lot of cases are not reported and documented, because at the time there was no real threat. I work in a school in LI,NY and there are a good handful of kids that you can just tell are ticking time bombs. Sure they get suspended from time to time, but they are not put on a potential list with authorities. Maybe that needs to be changed.

[retiredguy123]

I think that, unless you provide a consistent, across the board, teacher armed system, you will be inviting a perfect case for lawyers who want to sue the Government for not protecting children in all schools the same way. Why not just eliminate the gun free zones and let the second amendment and state gun laws rule how guns are used in schools.

[dewilson58]

Maybe a tight Good Samaritan Law.

[luperona9]

Maybe a trained teacher that cares and volunteers is way better than a coward looking to pad his pension.

Former Parkland school deputy arrested on 11 charges tied to shooting (https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2019/06/04/former-parkland-school-deputy-arrested-on-11-charges-tied-to-shooting-1041191)

[Bogie Shooter]

I am for it. Any teacher or staff member feeling uncomfortable with it, obviously wouldn't take part. There are many people who hunt and are NRA members and vets that know their way around a gun. As far as these gun free zones, is ridiculous that it's advertised . You never hear of a school shooting in Israel! That's because all the teachers carry! Unfortunately, these guns are getting into the hands of people with mental instability. A lot of cases are not reported and documented, because at the time there was no real threat. I work in a school in LI,NY and there are a good handful of kids that you can just tell are ticking time bombs. Sure they get suspended from time to time, but they are not put on a potential list with authorities. Maybe that needs to be changed.

A Google search will clarify that this is not true......

[Bucco]

The false narrative about Israel is pounded home on certain cable shows,but if you bother to actually digest facts....well, this is from The NY Times last year

"A 2012 study by Janet E. Rosenbaum, an epidemiologist at SUNY Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, examined the perception of many gun-rights advocates that Israel and Switzerland were “gun utopias” that had fairly permissive firearms laws and widespread gun ownership, and encouraged armed civilians to intercept shooters.

She found that gun ownership was in fact far lower in Israel than in the United States. In the United States there are roughly 310 million firearms in the hands of civilians, nearly one for every adult and child. In Israel — which has a population of about 8.5 million, not counting about 5 million Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza — about 135,000 citizens are currently licensed to own guns. Of those, 37,500 work as guards, according to the Ministry of Public Security, which issues the permits.

The United States considers handgun ownership a constitutionally protected right, while Israel considers gun permits a privilege, granted by the Ministry of Public Security strictly on the basis of need."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/world/middleeast/israel-guns-mike-huckabee.html[/url



----------------------------------------

There is something seriously wrong about a system where a disturbed young man can acquire deadly weapons as easily as buying a new laptop. Where children can treat firearms as casually as toys.

I live in a country with wars raging on all sides, with failed states collapsing into a primordial stew of hatred and nihilism an hour’s drive north of me, with suicidal regimes seeking nuclear weapons in order to carry out their expressed goals of obliterating me, my family, and everyone with whom I interact on a daily basis. But for all this, I don’t feel as if I’m living in a war zone. We know about death and we know about weapons of war, but we don't fetishize them.

[url]https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-why-school-shootings-don-t-happen-in-israel-1.5406039


The second link is from Israeli news....


Repeating the same tired old points does not fit...the narrative about Israel is easily defeated with facts.

[ColdNoMore]

Snip...>We know about death and we know about weapons of war, but we don't fetishize them.<...SNIP

While the rest of the post and the links of facts you provided is much appreciated, it really ALL comes down to...the underlined above. :ohdear:

[Bucco]

While the rest of the post and the links of facts you provided is much appreciated, it really ALL comes down to...the underlined above. :ohdear:

Sure you are correct, but context and source impresses me.

But to your point, so many repeat this lie about Israel over and over and over and then many simply say that "it must be a fact", and it is total fable.