Another Mass Shooting

[ColdNoMore]

Very few actual details, on who/why/what was used.

Although limited info as of now, Police Chief says..."long-time employee." :(

12 dead, including suspect, in Virginia Beach shooting: Police

Twelve people are dead, including the suspected gunman, after a shooting occurred at the Virginia Beach Municipal Center on Friday afternoon, according to police.

Six additional victims were taken to the hospital with injuries, Virginia Beach Police Chief James Cervera told reporters during a press conference. An emergency services spokesperson would not comment on the condition of the injured victims.

[Bucco]

Very few actual details, on who/why/what was used.

Although limited info as of now, Police Chief says..."long-time employee." :(

My confidence is very low that this will cause even a ripple in our society; it has ceased to do so. We simply accept it every time, send thoughts and prayers and change nothing. And now, our society does not even discuss doing anything.

[Kenswing]

What has changed in our society that people now think shooting a group of people is the answer to their problems or is the avenue for revenge?

I know people are going to take their usual positions about guns but we've always had guns. We haven't always had this number of mass shootings. What has changed?

[Bucco]

What has changed in our society that people now think shooting a group of people is the answer to their problems or is the avenue for revenge?

I know people are going to take their usual positions about guns but we've always had guns. We haven't always had this number of mass shootings. What has changed?

You are correct. We have become a hate filled society, where it is now normal NOT to express what we believe in, but only to insure we identify those we hate.

I am not anti gun, but I resent the thinking that being macho is an answer. That seems to be the prevailing mood now, and frankly it will worsen...our individual psyches cannot take hate day in and day out. We are being "taught" and shown by examples each day that we should "fight fire with fire" and playing a victim is acceptable.

You mentioned young people and that is for another thread, but in any case, if you simply bring up disgust at shootings, you are assured you will be assailed and told guns don't kill people....somebody once asked...then why do killers have them ?

I have no idea of this particular motive, but you must be filled with hate to even contemplate action like this

[Taltarzac725]

You are correct. We have become a hate filled society, where it is now normal NOT to express what we believe in, but only to insure we identify those we hate.

I am not anti gun, but I resent the thinking that being macho is an answer. That seems to be the prevailing mood now, and frankly it will worsen...our individual psyches cannot take hate day in and day out. We are being "taught" and shown by examples each day that we should "fight fire with fire" and playing a victim is acceptable.

You mentioned young people and that is for another thread, but in any case, if you simply bring up disgust at shootings, you are assured you will be assailed and told guns don't kill people....somebody once asked...then why do killers have them ?

I have no idea of this particular motive, but you must be filled with hate to even contemplate action like this

Get people reading more books than playing video games and the like. Books usually create empathy with other people which is something that seems to be eroding in our culture. It is harder I expect to shoot someone whom you see as a person like yourself. And I believe this is drawn out in how the military used to dehumanize various "enemies' through the use of propaganda which describes other people in the most banal of ways.

[ColdNoMore]

You are correct. We have become a hate filled society, where it is now normal NOT to express what we believe in, but only to insure we identify those we hate.

I am not anti gun, but I resent the thinking that being macho is an answer. That seems to be the prevailing mood now, and frankly it will worsen...our individual psyches cannot take hate day in and day out. We are being "taught" and shown by examples each day that we should "fight fire with fire" and playing a victim is acceptable.

You mentioned young people and that is for another thread, but in any case, if you simply bring up disgust at shootings, you are assured you will be assailed and told guns don't kill people....somebody once asked...then why do killers have them?

I have no idea of this particular motive, but you must be filled with hate to even contemplate action like this.

:agree:


The current depth of hate and the 'acceptance' of it by a lot of people...needs to stop.

And that's not going to happen with just..."thoughts and prayers." :oops:

I also believe the easy access to firearms...plays a role in these horrific incidents.

While I won't speculate as to what type(s) of weapon(s) he used, I would be willing to bet that he brought plenty of ammo (even if it was a handgun)...and he wasn't using a 6-shot revolver that took time to reload.

[Kenswing]

You are correct. We have become a hate filled society, where it is now normal NOT to express what we believe in, but only to insure we identify those we hate.

I am not anti gun, but I resent the thinking that being macho is an answer. That seems to be the prevailing mood now, and frankly it will worsen...our individual psyches cannot take hate day in and day out. We are being "taught" and shown by examples each day that we should "fight fire with fire" and playing a victim is acceptable.

You mentioned young people and that is for another thread, but in any case, if you simply bring up disgust at shootings, you are assured you will be assailed and told guns don't kill people....somebody once asked...then why do killers have them ?

I have no idea of this particular motive, but you must be filled with hate to even contemplate action like thisI absolutely agree that we have become a hate filled society. But again, why? What is perpetrating this?

How can you be taught to fight fire with fire and that being a victim is acceptable? It would seem counter intuitive.

I believe everyone should be outraged at these shootings. But I'll place my outrage with the shooter.

Not sure where I mentioned young people but this problem does seem to affect the young more prevalently than an older demographic. What are the influences that make this generation go this route? Is it lead by example? Is it that they've been raised with more violence in their lives? Violent video games and media? I just want to know what is causing this.

[BobnBev]

Violent video games and media certainly play a big part, that and the ease of getting a gun. "So easy a caveman could do it"

[Bucco]

I absolutely agree that we have become a hate filled society. But again, why? What is perpetrating this?

How can you be taught to fight fire with fire and that being a victim is acceptable? It would seem counter intuitive.

I believe everyone should be outraged at these shootings. But I'll place my outrage with the shooter.

Not sure where I mentioned young people but this problem does seem to affect the young more prevalently than an older demographic. What are the influences that make this generation go this route? Is it lead by example? Is it that they've been raised with more violence in their lives? Violent video games and media? I just want to know what is causing this.

If you watch the news or the happenings in our country, even from afar, you see nothing but hate speak. Saying what you might endorse or believe in, will bring a torrent of high profile attacks at your sheer existence.

80 years on this planet....lived through a lot....never experienced such venom, to the point where I, a news junkie, hides from the latest but you cannot escape it.

I fought for this country and what it stood for and I want that feeling again.

And while I understand your outrage at the shooter, and understand, even you are asking the right question about where this comes from....THAT, to me is the MAJOR contributor

[Kenswing]

:agree:


The current depth of hate and the 'acceptance' of it by a lot of people...needs to stop. I agree but how do you change something that big? First we need to know how it got that way before we can figure out how to reverse it.

And that's not going to happen with just..."thoughts and prayers." :oops:

I also believe the easy access to firearms...plays a role in these horrific incidents. It very well may be. But guns have never really been hard to get. Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country and they had 43 shootings over the Memorial Day weekend. But no outcry about that. As Bucco eluded, we've pretty much become numb to the violence.

While I won't speculate as to what type(s) of weapon(s) he used, I would be willing to bet that he brought plenty of ammo (even if it was a handgun)...and he wasn't using a 6-shot revolver that took time to reload.

I agree. It probably wasn't a revolver.

[ColdNoMore]

If you watch the news or the happenings in our country, even from afar, you see nothing but hate speak. Saying what you might endorse or believe in, will bring a torrent of high profile attacks at your sheer existence.

80 years on this planet....lived through a lot....never experienced such venom, to the point where I, a news junkie, hides from the latest but you cannot escape it.

I fought for this country and what it stood for and I want that feeling again.

And while I understand your outrage at the shooter, and understand, even you are asking the right question about where this comes from....THAT, to me is the MAJOR contributor

Yep, :agree:...COMPLETELY! ;)

[Abby10]

If you watch the news or the happenings in our country, even from afar, you see nothing but hate speak. Saying what you might endorse or believe in, will bring a torrent of high profile attacks at your sheer existence.

80 years on this planet....lived through a lot....never experienced such venom, to the point where I, a news junkie, hides from the latest but you cannot escape it.

I fought for this country and what it stood for and I want that feeling again.

And while I understand your outrage at the shooter, and understand, even you are asking the right question about where this comes from....THAT, to me is the MAJOR contributor

I assume your comment on happenings and the news has to do with what is going on today, but how does that explain the Columbine school shooting in 1999 and all the shootings that have happened between then and now?

[Bucco]

I assume your comment on happenings and the news has to do with what is going on today, but how does that explain the Columbine school shooting in 1999 and all the shootings that have happened between then and now?

Was not meant to explain any shooting. I was responding to a question,....direct question, which had nothing to do with school shootings at all.

CONTEXT

[manaboutown]

It seems he was a long time utility company employee who went postal.

More shall be revealed but I wonder if there were any early warning indicators or whether he suddenly just flipped out.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Violent video games and media certainly play a big part, that and the ease of getting a gun. "So easy a caveman could do it"

Oh please. I've been playing violent video and RPG games since Zork when I killed my first grue, and I haven't ever given a moment's thought to owning, let alone using, a firearm.

Millions of people play video games and RPGs and don't go out and kill people. There are also people who kill other people, who don't play violent video games. And you forgot the whole "oh they listen to death metal" rhetoric.

That's stuff and nonsense, propaganda created by the NRA to put the blame on anything except where it belongs: on lack of enforcement of existing gun laws, and gun laws that are not universal, thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.

[Kenswing]

Oh please. I've been playing violent video and RPG games since Zork when I killed my first grue, and I haven't ever given a moment's thought to owning, let alone using, a firearm.

Millions of people play video games and RPGs and don't go out and kill people. There are also people who kill other people, who don't play violent video games. And you forgot the whole "oh they listen to death metal" rhetoric.

That's stuff and nonsense, propaganda created by the NRA to put the blame on anything except where it belongs: on lack of enforcement of existing gun laws, and gun laws that are not universal, thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.
Still doesn't explain why people are doing this. Gun laws or no gun laws. People are committing mass murder which is much more serious than violating a gun law. The law of not murdering people is pretty basic and fundamental.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I picked up a snippet while I was changing radio stations in the car today.
The person who was being interviewed (?) was saying that very often the person who commits this type of killing is suicidal.
They go into their old workplace and start shooting up anyone in their path.
They are angry and just don't care.

It's sad -- very, very sad.

[Bay Kid]

Violent video games and media certainly play a big part, that and the ease of getting a gun. "So easy a caveman could do it"

This is so true. Video games are mostly killing, whether guns, knives, cannons, etc. Just killing something sells. TV is soooo full of violence, then the actors protest guns, hypocrites.

So sad

[anothersteve]

thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.

Simply not true. And not as easy as you make it sound.
Steve

[skip0358]

I know many gun owners. Their weapons are locked up or in hiding and only come out when they go to the range, for cleaning or on the very rare occasion when they're needed for protection of themselves or someone else. As for the mass shootings school, workplace or other events I'd suspect these people have some sort of mental issue or have been abused either physically or mentally and figure this is the best way to handle or deal with the problem. Not right by any means but certainly in their mind it is. Made fun of at school, stepped on or over on a job, or ridiculed by friends. I'll show them attitude. Agree it's sad what's happening but it's the person behind the weapon be it a car, gun, bomb,fire or whatever.

[Taltarzac725]

Oh please. I've been playing violent video and RPG games since Zork when I killed my first grue, and I haven't ever given a moment's thought to owning, let alone using, a firearm.

Millions of people play video games and RPGs and don't go out and kill people. There are also people who kill other people, who don't play violent video games. And you forgot the whole "oh they listen to death metal" rhetoric.

That's stuff and nonsense, propaganda created by the NRA to put the blame on anything except where it belongs: on lack of enforcement of existing gun laws, and gun laws that are not universal, thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.

Certainly think we need tougher guns and much more intelligent handling of restrictions on who can get a gun with a very heavy emphasis on context. The FACTS of each case should be the guide and not some bureaucratic check-list. People are too quick to seek simplistic answers that make good bumper stickers.

Will be interesting to see the details of the shooter in this case. Each seems to be different from the next.

[billethkid]

The daily training of society to accept/embrace/approve violence is proven day in and day out.
Just look at the movie line up on Netflix or Amazon and others.....mostly violence based "entertainment" and more often than not utilizing guns in one form or another.

There is no control anymore who is allowed to watch what or not. Young children are growing up conditioned to seeing murder and mayhem in their games and movies. Beheading, disemboweling, rampaging killing are all in front of our society every single day.

Human behavior has been changed by these events. Tolerances for murder and mayhem are acceptable "entertainment". There is nothing left to the imagination anymore.

If it bleeds it leads is more true today than ever before. To say it has no effect on the attitudes, outlook and behavior of our society is missing the major contributor to what is now acceptable in our lives.

[Taltarzac725]

The daily training of society to accept/embrace/approve violence is proven day in and day out.
Just look at the movie line up on Netflix or Amazon and others.....mostly violence based "entertainment" and more often than not utilizing guns in one form or another.

There is no control anymore who is allowed to watch what or not. Young children are growing up conditioned to seeing murder and mayhem in their games and movies. Beheading, disemboweling, rampaging killing are all in front of our society every single day.

Human behavior has been changed by these events. Tolerances for murder and mayhem are acceptable "entertainment". There is nothing left to the imagination anymore.

If it bleeds it leads is more true today than ever before. To say it has no effect on the attitudes, outlook and behavior of our society is missing the major contributor to what is now acceptable in our lives.

The Bible and Homer's The Iliad are some of the most violent books I have ever read as are some of the movies based on these.

There would be a great deal more violence in our society though if there was much cause-and-effect between watching very gory movies and taking a gun or some other weapon and murdering people.

Saving Private Ryan are other such very realistic movies might actually work against contemplating such behavior. These do get you to care about the characters in the dramas.

Game of Thrones is very violent but you became very drawn into the heroes, villains, and how they interacted.

[Aces4]

////////

[dewilson58]

:pray:




So many people lives effected.

[fw102807]

People are too quick to seek simplistic answers that make good bumper stickers.


:bigbow:
Amen to that Tal, best response ever. There are always many sides to each issue and many facts to support each side.

[Taltarzac725]

:bigbow:
Amen to that Tal, best response ever. There are always many sides to each issue and many facts to support each side.

I am quite familiar with violence and it affects. A police officer came to talk to us Earl Wooster High School students to "help" us deal with the 2-24-1976 murder of Michelle Mitchell near the University of Nevada, Reno campus but instead of empathizing with us he started talking about a 1963 extremely gory killing by a Earl Wooster HS student, Thomas Lee Bean, at that time of a female Olympic skier. Context is extremely important as is trying to get know the people involved in these kind of tragedies.

I came across a former cell mate of Bean -- the 1963 murderer-- who actually said that this is a very nice guy now. Or he was when he was this guy's cellmate. I visit with a lot of people via Facebook who live or lived in Reno, Nevada.

What this guy did to the skier, Sonja McCaskie, is still horrific even by 2019 standards. Bean looks evil to me and not so much mentally ill.

[manaboutown]

The latest I read was that the shooter, DeWayne Craddock, had been disciplined for some reason and apparently came back for revenge. He still had his pass card to gain entry into nonpublic areas of the building. His residential neighbors did not really know him as he kept to himself. They said he always carried a book bag...

[Kenswing]

Not that it really matters but the weapon used was a .45 handgun..

[Velvet]

It is so hard to hear about another mass killing. I don’t blame the guns alone, the man could have used any other method, but the gun he brought certainly helped.

Then there are the victims, completely unanticipated, life suddenly over. Who will look after their families now?

[ColdNoMore]

Not that it really matters but the weapon used was a .45 handgun..

He also had a rifle (unidentified type as of now), a suppressor and (as predicted)...extended magazines for the .45 cal. :ohdear:



Live: Virginia Beach mass shooting - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/virginia-beach-mass-shooting/index.html)

The weapons: Authorities recovered two guns at the scene believed to be used in the shooting, a rifle and a .45 caliber handgun with extended magazines and a suppressor, the chief said.

[justjim]

Violent video games and media certainly play a big part, that and the ease of getting a gun. "So easy a caveman could do it"

We were warned about the violent video games but I’m afraid the ship has already sailed on that issue. Our culture has changed especially in the last 50 years and it has not been for the better. Too much “me” and freedom to act out that “freedom” has become a major violent shooting problem in the Country we all love. There has to be a “middle ground” established in America or we are going to self destruct from within. A House divided will not continue to stand...

[Bucco]

We were warned about the violent video games but I’m afraid the ship has already sailed on that issue. Our culture has changed especially in the last 50 years and it has not been for the better. Too much “me” and freedom to act out that “freedom” has become a major violent shooting problem in the Country we all love. There has to be a “middle ground” established in America or we are going to self destruct from within. A House divided will not continue to stand...

My opinion.

This post is symbolic of "kicking the can down the road".

Believing there is too much freedom simply belies the facts.

By the way, news reporting they found further guns at his home,but I am sure they were all for personal protection and sport. I

[Bucco]

It took 4 officers and ALL their ammo to stop this one man, who would have killed more. Sounds like Afghanistan, but it is the United States of America

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It is so hard to hear about another mass killing. I don’t blame the guns alone, the man could have used any other method, but the gun he brought certainly helped.

Then there are the victims, completely unanticipated, life suddenly over. Who will look after their families now?

Guns are the weapon of choice for mass killings because they're relatively easy to get, easy to use, ammo is cheap enough, and they can kill a lot of people in a very short amount of time even if you're a lousy shot.

The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is why they exist. Every other function (fun, competition, symbolic, providing a physical visible threat for any reason at all) is secondary.

[Aces4]

Guns are the weapon of choice for mass killings because they're relatively easy to get, easy to use, ammo is cheap enough, and they can kill a lot of people in a very short amount of time even if you're a lousy shot.

The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is why they exist. Every other function (fun, competition, symbolic, providing a physical visible threat for any reason at all) is secondary.

I believe the perps would use other methods, sadly, if guns were not available. We can not be naive about the intentions of these killers.

[ColdNoMore]

Guns are the weapon of choice for mass killings because they're relatively easy to get, easy to use, ammo is cheap enough, and they can kill a lot of people in a very short amount of time even if you're a lousy shot.

The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is why they exist. Every other function (fun, competition, symbolic, providing a physical visible threat for any reason at all) is secondary.

EXACTLY! :ohdear:

[manaboutown]

I believe the perps would use other methods, sadly, if guns were not available. We can not be naive about the intentions of these killers.

Yes, knifings in England and Wales for example! Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089)

[ColdNoMore]

I believe the perps would use other methods, sadly, if guns were not available. We can not be naive about the intentions of these killers.

Such as?

A sword?

A knife?

A baseball bat?

Grenades?

?????

:agree: on the "naiveté" though...just not on the subject you've mentioned. :ohdear:



NOTHING allows killing faster and more effectively...than a firearm. :oops:

[Number 10 GI]

Yes, knifings in England and Wales for example! Ten charts on the rise of knife crime in England and Wales - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089)

Legal gun ownership in Mexico is nearly impossible unless you are connected to the right people. Back in the late 80's I read a report stating that there were more knife homicides in Mexico than homicides from all causes (knife, gun, bludgeon, beating, etc.) in the United States for the same time frame. If a person has the intent to kill they will find something to use to commit the murder.

[manaboutown]

Some of the highest homicide rates using guns occur in gun controlled countries. There’s a new global ranking of gun deaths. Here’s where the U.S. stands | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/theres-a-new-global-ranking-of-gun-deaths-heres-where-the-u-s-stands)

[ColdNoMore]

Legal gun ownership in Mexico is nearly impossible unless you are connected to the right people. Back in the late 80's I read a report stating that there were more knife homicides in Mexico than homicides from all causes (knife, gun, bludgeon, beating, etc.) in the United States for the same time frame.

If a person has the intent to kill they will find something to use to commit the murder.

I agree with the underlined above and totally agree/understand that 'murder' will never be completely eradicated, but I think you (and so many others) are totally failing to acknowledge the most important aspect...that being the pure numbers involved with each horrific incident. :oops:

One thing is guaranteed however, continuing to do NOTHING...isn't working.



The famous quote, attributed to Einstein, definitely applies here...

"Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results."

[Kenswing]

Such as?

A sword?

A knife?

A baseball bat?

Grenades?

?????

:agree: on the "naiveté" though...just not on the subject you've mentioned. :ohdear:



NOTHING allows killing faster and more effectively...than a firearm. :oops:
Where there's a will there's a way. Yes, guns make it easier to kill. But when guns aren't available, people intent on killing will adapt.

Eighty six people killed by a truck.. Very effectively. 2016 Nice truck attack - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack)

Bombings also seem to be pretty popular in places where guns aren't available.

[Aces4]

Such as?

A sword?

A knife?

A baseball bat?

Grenades?

?????

:agree: on the "naiveté" though...just not on the subject you've mentioned. :ohdear:



NOTHING allows killing faster and more effectively...than a firearm. :oops:

Computers provide total access to so many methods of destruction and many are unaware of the havoc a deluded person can wreak. Surely, the Oklahoma bombings haven’t been forgotten. Chemical/poisoning weapons are not beyond the reach of deluded people. The scary part is, far greater numbers of lives could be lost on those hellbent to harm. Therefore, the “NOTHING” analogy doesn’t carry water.

[ColdNoMore]

Computers provide total access to so many methods of destruction and many are unaware of the havoc a deluded person can wreak. Surely, the Oklahoma bombings haven’t been forgotten. Chemical/poisoning weapons are not beyond the reach of deluded people. The scary part is, far greater numbers of lives could be lost on those hellbent to harm. Therefore, the “NOTHING” analogy doesn’t carry water.

OK, point taken on incorrectly using..."NOTHING."

Speaking of the horrific OKC bombing though, at least SOME THINGS were done...to try and prevent another one.

Impact of the Oklahoma City Bombing 20 Years Later | Newseum (https://www.newseum.org/2015/04/17/impact-of-the-oklahoma-city-bombing-20-years-later/)



So tell us how many things have been done to try and prevent mass murderers...who use firearms and high-capacity magazines?


I'll wait. :popcorn:

[Trayderjoe]

I am amazed and glad that this discussion has gone as long as it has with only the surface of "ban the guns" being scratched. Many ask as to when these mass shootings will end, while others point to the need to understand the WHY they are happening. Some posters have pointed to context as being important-it is!

Consider the discussion of violent video games and the influence they have on children. There are many adults who have played various role playing games, watched movies with violence, etc. and are peaceful law abiding citizens. Who here (and I assume there are many) remembers going to the playground to play in a pickup ball game? Who here had parents that told you to go out and play versus sitting in the house? How many people participated in activities and did NOT get "participation" trophies just for showing up? Many of us grew up and developed social interaction skills as well as learning that we don't always win, but we tried. How many of the youths of today plug in to the internet versus going to the playground? How many get trophies because they participated versus those who don't get participation trophies? What happens to school children who never learn that they WILL fail at something in their life, or who never hear the word NO? Once these kids get out of a sheltered life and go out into the world, how do they handle the competition and failures that they will face?

Consider too that the rate of suicide is increasing annually. You can check out the statistics from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention here (https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/). Why is the rate increasing annually? What is different from when we grew up? Is it because we don't unplug from work anymore?

I certainly don't have the answers, but unless/until we understand the WHY, we will be unable to reduce/eliminate these tragic events. Instead of blaming the "how", put the blame exactly where it belongs, on the perpetrator of the crime and then try to find out the WHY it was done. Was it a mental health issue? A disgruntled employee? Is there just a basic lack of respect for life? Why is killing so cavalier to some people?

[Velvet]

Yes, yes, yes, the WHY is critical. The doctor has to diagnose the patient to figure out what is wrong, first.

[Aces4]

OK, point taken on incorrectly using..."NOTHING."

Speaking of the horrific OKC bombing though, at least SOME THINGS were done...to try and prevent another one.

Impact of the Oklahoma City Bombing 20 Years Later | Newseum (https://www.newseum.org/2015/04/17/impact-of-the-oklahoma-city-bombing-20-years-later/)



So tell us how many things have been done to try and prevent mass murderers...who use firearms and high-capacity magazines?


I'll wait. :popcorn:



I guess I don’t understand the popcorn and edginess. Aren’t we all on the same page in trying to stop mass murders. So many preventions and policies have been instituted so far and much more needs to happen, unfortunately. As stated earlier, when a deluded person is hellbent on murder, they will use any method that will wreak havoc.

[Velvet]

Yes, but... this guy was an Engineer. Years of very challenging studies. Then had to qualify to become a professional engineer. Then worked for 15 years. Then he got fired.
Trying to understand what went on here.

[luperona9]

What has changed in our society that people now think shooting a group of people is the answer to their problems or is the avenue for revenge?

I know people are going to take their usual positions about guns but we've always had guns. We haven't always had this number of mass shootings. What has changed?What has changed... Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990)

And the internet and media have given these cowards a platform.

The most efficient killing machine is the $19.95 home Depot truck. Easiest to get, kills the most people most efficiently, luckily the government has not created any gun-free zones where you can easily take a rental truck... Yet.

[John_W]

...As stated earlier, when a deluded person is hellbent on murder, they will use any method that will wreak havoc.

This pretty much sez it all, I don't know why it took six pages to figure this out.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Legal gun ownership in Mexico is nearly impossible unless you are connected to the right people. Back in the late 80's I read a report stating that there were more knife homicides in Mexico than homicides from all causes (knife, gun, bludgeon, beating, etc.) in the United States for the same time frame. If a person has the intent to kill they will find something to use to commit the murder.

So let's just give them easy access to the most efficient method possible. That's what you're saying. You're saying you can't stop people from doing stupid, dangerous, horrible things, so you might as well help them do it really really well.

[Taltarzac725]

So let's just give them easy access to the most efficient method possible. That's what you're saying. You're saying you can't stop people from doing stupid, dangerous, horrible things, so you might as well help them do it really really well.

That would be grenades I would guess. Thank God no one has access to these that I am aware of anyway. And that is what you would need along with many other weapons to fight a war like some NRA 2nd Amendment fanatics put forth as the reason behind the 2nd Amendment. Militias fighting other militias which happened extremely often in Imperial Rome something that the Founding Fathers would have been very aware of when writing the US Constitution.

[Trayderjoe]

Legal gun ownership in Mexico is nearly impossible unless you are connected to the right people. Back in the late 80's I read a report stating that there were more knife homicides in Mexico than homicides from all causes (knife, gun, bludgeon, beating, etc.) in the United States for the same time frame. If a person has the intent to kill they will find something to use to commit the murder.

The last sentence of the first post cited does say it all regarding the "how", that if someone is intent to kill, they will find a way.

So let's just give them easy access to the most efficient method possible. That's what you're saying. You're saying you can't stop people from doing stupid, dangerous, horrible things, so you might as well help them do it really really well.

I did not read anything like this into the first post cited.

How easy was it to make and how long do you think it took, for the detonation of the two homemade pressure cooker bombs, at the Boston Marathon which killed three people and injured several hundred others, including 16 who lost limbs?

I would guess it wasn't too difficult to obtain a 19 ton truck and it to plow into revellers in Nice celebrating the Bastille Day holiday on July 14, 2016. Tunisian national Mohamed Bouhlel killed 86 people.

How about Timothy McVeigh, who perpetrated the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168 people and injured over 680 others? I wonder how easy it was to put that bomb together and how long did it take for that devastation to occur?

The internet provides a lot of information on how to build bombs and nerve agents using easily available materials. I remember a caution in high school chemistry about not mixing two common substances that can generate a toxic gas. So yes, if someone is intent on killing, they will find any means they can to do evil.

Why not try and figure out what drives these people to do "stupid, dangerous, horrible things" and work on THAT instead of focusing how they do it? Why is it so easy these days to kill people? Shouldn't we try and get our arms around that?

[Bucco]

That would be grenades I would guess. Thank God no one has access to these that I am aware of anyway. And that is what you would need along with many other weapons to fight a war like some NRA 2nd Amendment fanatics put forth as the reason behind the 2nd Amendment. Militias fighting other militias which happened extremely often in Imperial Rome something that the Founding Fathers would have been very aware of when writing the US Constitution.

Last November, in California, an ex marine killed 12 people and used smoke grenades and high capacity mags.

Gunman in California bar attack used smoke grenades, high-capacity magazines (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gunman-california-bar-attack-used-smoke-grenades-high-capacity-magazines-n940841)

But you are correct in what you say. Most of it is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, but you are close.

[luperona9]

Massacre at Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, California was in another Gun-free zone: 12 murdered, 18 injured | Gun Owners of America (https://gunowners.org/massacre-at-borderline-bar-grill-in-thousand-oaks-california-was-in-another-gun-free-zone-12-murdered-18-injured/)

Almost every mass shooting is in a gun free zone.

The thing speaks for itself.

[Bucco]

Massacre at Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, California was in another Gun-free zone: 12 murdered, 18 injured | Gun Owners of America (https://gunowners.org/massacre-at-borderline-bar-grill-in-thousand-oaks-california-was-in-another-gun-free-zone-12-murdered-18-injured/)

Almost every mass shooting is in a gun free zone.

The thing speaks for itself.

Point was replying to the post about grenades and thinking nobody has access to them

[luperona9]

Point was replying to the post about grenades and thinking nobody has access to themMy point is clearly stated.

[Trayderjoe]

Last November, in California, an ex marine killed 12 people and used smoke grenades and high capacity mags.

Gunman in California bar attack used smoke grenades, high-capacity magazines (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gunman-california-bar-attack-used-smoke-grenades-high-capacity-magazines-n940841)

But you are correct in what you say. Most of it is not allowed to be discussed on this forum, but you are close.

Oh, you mean Ian David Long, the former marine. The one whom police were called to Long's home in Newbury Park in 2018 for a domestic dispute where he was found to be "somewhat irate and acting irrationally," per Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean.

Dean said mental health workers examined Long at the time, but decided not to take him in for further observation.

The same guy who was a "former machine gunner and decorated combat veteran of the war in Afghanistan who, authorities said, had an episode of erratic behavior that suggested post-traumatic stress disorder.

Long's various interactions with police over the years pointed to a man who needed professional help. None came". Link (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/11/08/ian-long-gunman-thousand-oaks-california-borderline-bar-grill/1928231002/)

So another case where people were made aware of someone who had emotional issues, did nothing, and yet finger pointing at the NRA occurs. Why aren't we looking at the breakdown in the support system?

[manaboutown]

So let's just give them easy access to the most efficient method possible. That's what you're saying. You're saying you can't stop people from doing stupid, dangerous, horrible things, so you might as well help them do it really really well.

Well, the guy who went nuts was a civil engineer. If he could not have obtained a gun or three legally he was smart enough to have obtained them illegally as criminals and terrorists do regularly in gun controlled countries and regions of this country. Maybe he could have manufactured a shooting iron himself. He also could have made his own grenades, or horror of horrors, manufactured and used a poison gas, sprayed or poured acid on folks, or contrived other means of killing and maiming in numbers such as with bombs. He could have laced the office water supply with fentanyl.

[Bucco]

Oh, you mean Ian David Long, the former marine. The one whom police were called to Long's home in Newbury Park in 2018 for a domestic dispute where he was found to be "somewhat irate and acting irrationally," per Ventura County Sheriff Geoff Dean.

Dean said mental health workers examined Long at the time, but decided not to take him in for further observation.

The same guy who was a "former machine gunner and decorated combat veteran of the war in Afghanistan who, authorities said, had an episode of erratic behavior that suggested post-traumatic stress disorder.

Long's various interactions with police over the years pointed to a man who needed professional help. None came". Link (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/11/08/ian-long-gunman-thousand-oaks-california-borderline-bar-grill/1928231002/)

So another case where people were made aware of someone who had emotional issues, did nothing, and yet finger pointing at the NRA occurs. Why aren't we looking at the breakdown in the support system?

Used to be that would disqualify him to buy a gun...no longer.

You will need to research to find out why..cannot discuss it on this forum.

[Bucco]

Well, the guy who went nuts was a civil engineer. If he could not have obtained a gun or three legally he was smart enough to have obtained them illegally as criminals and terrorists do regularly in gun controlled countries and regions of this country. Maybe he could have manufactured a shooting iron himself. He also could have made his own grenades, or horror of horrors, manufactured and used a poison gas, sprayed or poured acid on folks, or contrived other means of killing and maiming in numbers such as with bombs. He could have laced the office water supply with fentanyl.

But he didn't...he used the simple easy method

[ColdNoMore]

Used to be that would disqualify him to buy a gun...no longer.

You will need to research to find out why..cannot discuss it on this forum.

THAT, is a big part of the problem.

There has been a concerted and successful effort, mostly through donations...to stop ANY common sense changes to gun laws. :oops:

[ColdNoMore]

The tiresome, red herring and disingenuous argument of "if someone wants to kill, they will find a way," is a big reason that next to nothing has been done...about the MOST common method used by mass murderers. :oops:

I'm sure there have been those who have been killed with a purse too, but it is extremely rare and no one with any sense...would think of restrictions on purses.

And yet, continuing to use those exceedingly rare occasions where other than firearms (typically with high-capacity magazines) are used to kill more than one person, in one incident, is the distraction and justification used...and which mostly explains why nothing of significance has been accomplished toward the real problem.

The love of firearms and the sense of power/equalization they convey...is very addicting to a lot of people. :ohdear:

[anothersteve]

"Mass shootings represent national awakenings and moments when seeming political or social adversaries might come together to find common ground, whether guns are allowed, regulated, or banned. Doing so, however, means recognizing that gun crimes, mental illnesses, social networks, and gun access issues are complexly interrelated, and not reducible to simple cause and effect. Ultimately, the ways our society frames these connections reveal as much about our particular cultural politics, biases, and blind spots as it does about the acts of lone, and obviously troubled, individuals."
American Journal on Public Health

There are plenty of arguments here, but surely no discussion.
Steve

[ColdNoMore]

"Mass shootings represent national awakenings and moments when seeming political or social adversaries might come together to find common ground, whether guns are allowed, regulated, or banned. Doing so, however, means recognizing that gun crimes, mental illnesses, social networks, and gun access issues are complexly interrelated, and not reducible to simple cause and effect. Ultimately, the ways our society frames these connections reveal as much about our particular cultural politics, biases, and blind spots as it does about the acts of lone, and obviously troubled, individuals."
American Journal on Public Health
Steve

Link, so that we can read the article/opinion...in its entirety?

[Midnight Cowgirl]

The tiresome, red herring and disingenuous argument of "if someone wants to kill, they will find a way," is a big reason that next to nothing has been done...about the MOST common method used by mass murderers. :oops:

I'm sure there have been those who have been killed with a purse too, but it is extremely rare and no one with any sense...would think of restrictions on purses.

And yet, continuing to use those exceedingly rare occasions where other than firearms (typically with high-capacity magazines) are used to kill more than one person, in one incident, is the distraction and justification used...and which mostly explains why nothing of significance has been accomplished toward the real problem.

The love of firearms and the sense of power/equalization they convey...is very addicting to a lot of people. :ohdear:



I believe it is very addicting because it is a macho thing to own one and they are usually more than happy to tell you about it.

[Trayderjoe]

THAT, is a big part of the problem.

There has been a concerted and successful effort, mostly through donations...to stop ANY common sense changes to gun laws. :oops:

Not quite true. Per the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives:

Identify Prohibited Persons (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons)
The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person:

convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

who is a fugitive from justice;

who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act, codified at 21 U.S.C. § 802);

who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

who is an illegal alien;

who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;

who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or

who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

The GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 992(n) also makes it unlawful for any person under indictment for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year to ship, transport, or receive firearms or ammunition.

Further, the GCA at 18 U.S.C. § 922(d) makes it unlawful to sell or otherwise dispose of firearms or ammunition to any person who is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing firearms or ammunition.

Oh, and did I mention that this is part of the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) (https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics) that is used when purchasing a gun from a dealer?

I have asked in the past, what are some "common sense gun laws" that need to be passed?

[anothersteve]

Link, so that we can read the article/opinion...in its entirety?

Just one of many. Google is your friend. You can always find articles to suit you purpose, I found this one to be fairly non biased.

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/)

Steve

[Aces4]

The tiresome, red herring and disingenuous argument of "if someone wants to kill, they will find a way," is a big reason that next to nothing has been done...about the MOST common method used by mass murderers. :oops:

I'm sure there have been those who have been killed with a purse too, but it is extremely rare and no one with any sense...would think of restrictions on purses.

And yet, continuing to use those exceedingly rare occasions where other than firearms (typically with high-capacity magazines) are used to kill more than one person, in one incident, is the distraction and justification used...and which mostly explains why nothing of significance has been accomplished toward the real problem.

The love of firearms and the sense of power/equalization they convey...is very addicting to a lot of people. :ohdear:


The disingenuous argument that taking guns away from everyone will immediately stop all deadly assaults is mind boggling. Did it ever cross your mind that police would rather deal with a maniac with a gun than the other horrendous possibilities that could be wrought?

[Bucco]

"Mass shootings represent national awakenings and moments when seeming political or social adversaries might come together to find common ground, whether guns are allowed, regulated, or banned. Doing so, however, means recognizing that gun crimes, mental illnesses, social networks, and gun access issues are complexly interrelated, and not reducible to simple cause and effect. Ultimately, the ways our society frames these connections reveal as much about our particular cultural politics, biases, and blind spots as it does about the acts of lone, and obviously troubled, individuals."
American Journal on Public Health

There are plenty of arguments here, but surely no discussion.
Steve

It is required by TOTV to supply a link when you copy and paste. Your paste is from a 40 page thesis, and this is the link in case folks want context and bibliography. It matters.

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/)

[luperona9]

Soft targets.

Nuff said.

No amount of o dears will change the truth.

O dear
O dear
O dear

See. It's still about soft targets. By any standards 90 - 98 % of mass shootings are in gun free zones.

The government is actually advertising ... "Come shoot here, we can't shoot back"

[anothersteve]

I believe it is very addicting because it is a macho thing to own one and they are usually more than happy to tell you about it.
So women can be macho also? What would you call a woman that owns firearms?

Steve

[luperona9]

So women can be macho also? What would you call a woman that owns firearms?

SteveLots of 380s in our handbags, right at the Town Square.

[Trayderjoe]

The tiresome, red herring and disingenuous argument of "if someone wants to kill, they will find a way," is a big reason that next to nothing has been done...about the MOST common method used by mass murderers. :oops:

I'm sure there have been those who have been killed with a purse too, but it is extremely rare and no one with any sense...would think of restrictions on purses.

And yet, continuing to use those exceedingly rare occasions where other than firearms (typically with high-capacity magazines) are used to kill more than one person, in one incident, is the distraction and justification used...and which mostly explains why nothing of significance has been accomplished toward the real problem.

The love of firearms and the sense of power/equalization they convey...is very addicting to a lot of people. :ohdear:


While killing someone with a purse, if it happened, would be extremely rare, what about something that kills about 30 people per day? Is that enough deaths per day to warrant action? I refer to the approximately 30 people killed per day (that's one person every 48 minutes in 2017) as a result of drunk driving crashes per the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (link (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)). Why aren't background checks done on ANY PERSON who purchases a car? Why aren't people who have been found guilty of alcohol related driving incidents not prohibited from owning a car? Why do so many people arrested for DUIs get "multiple bites at the apple" before serving serious jail time? Why aren't car manufacturers required to install breathalyzers in every car, and every person required to pass a breathalyzer test prior to operating their vehicle? The last time I checked, driving a motor vehicle is a privilege, it is NOT a RIGHT under the constitution, so why can't people be barred from owning a vehicle after a DUI? So why is it that next to nothing has been done to address it?

Or is it that 30 people across the United States that are killed daily are not as important as 10 or 15 people killed in a single tragic event? I wonder if the relatives of those killed through alcohol related traffic deaths take solace that their loved ones were at least not killed by a gun? Somehow I don't think they do.

[ColdNoMore]

It is required by TOTV to supply a link when you copy and paste. Your paste is from a 40 page thesis, and this is the link in case folks want context and bibliography. It matters.

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/)

I too am familiar with that study/link...and thanks for providing it. :thumbup:

Particularly interesting and cogent to the issue we're discussing, for me anyway...

A number of studies suggest that laws and policies that enable firearm access during emotionally charged moments also seem to correlate with gun violence more strongly than does mental illness alone.

Belying Lott’s argument that “more guns” lead to “less crime,”52 Miller et al. found that homicide was more common in areas where household firearms ownership was higher.

53 Siegel et al. found that states with high rates of gun ownership had disproportionately high numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.54

Webster’s analysis uncovered that the repeal of Missouri’s background check law led to an additional 49 to 68 murders per year,55 and the rate of interpersonal conflicts resolved by fatal shootings jumped by 200% after Florida passed “stand your ground” in 2005.56

Availability of guns is also considered a more predictive factor than is psychiatric diagnosis in many of the 19 000 US completed gun suicides each year.11,57,58 (By comparison, gun-related homicides and suicides fell precipitously, and mass-shootings dropped to zero, when the Australian government passed a series of gun-access restrictions in 1996.59)

[anothersteve]

It is required by TOTV to supply a link when you copy and paste. Your paste is from a 40 page thesis, and this is the link in case folks want context and bibliography. It matters.

Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/)

See post #70 please.
Steve

[ColdNoMore]

While killing someone with a purse, if it happened, would be extremely rare, what about something that kills about 30 people per day? Is that enough deaths per day to warrant action? I refer to the approximately 30 people killed per day (that's one person every 48 minutes in 2017) as a result of drunk driving crashes per the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (link (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)). Why aren't background checks done on ANY PERSON who purchases a car? Why aren't people who have been found guilty of alcohol related driving incidents not prohibited from owning a car? Why do so many people arrested for DUIs get "multiple bites at the apple" before serving serious jail time? Why aren't car manufacturers required to install breathalyzers in every car, and every person required to pass a breathalyzer test prior to operating their vehicle? The last time I checked, driving a motor vehicle is a privilege, it is NOT a RIGHT under the constitution, so why can't people be barred from owning a vehicle after a DUI? So why is it that next to nothing has been done to address it?

Or is it that 30 people across the United States that are killed daily are not as important as 10 or 15 people killed in a single tragic event? I wonder if the relatives of those killed through alcohol related traffic deaths take solace that their loved ones were at least not killed by a gun? Somehow I don't think they do.

If you're looking for disagreement of taking vehicles away from anyone convicted of DUI, for at least a year, even for those who it's their first time...you're barking up the wrong tree and it won't be coming from me. :ho:

But, as I've noted many times (and this just reinforces it), those who love their guns...will use any comparison and "whattabout" they can.

[anothersteve]

Lots of 380s in our handbags, right at the Town Square.
Good for you!
Steve

[luperona9]

Good for you!

SteveThank you


Great club here.

The Villages Straight Shooters Gun Safety, Education, Marksmanship - Home (https://www.vssclub.org/)

[Velvet]

...

[Trayderjoe]

If you're looking for disagreement of taking vehicles away from anyone convicted of DUI, for at least a year, even for those who it's their first time...you're barking up the wrong tree and it won't be coming from me. :ho:

But, as I've noted many times (and this just reinforces it), those who love their guns...will use any comparison and "whattabout" they can.

Actually the information about alcohol related auto deaths was posted in response to this post:

Originally Posted by ColdNoMore View Post
The tiresome, red herring and disingenuous argument of "if someone wants to kill, they will find a way," is a big reason that next to nothing has been done...about the MOST common method used by mass murderers.

I'm sure there have been those who have been killed with a purse too, but it is extremely rare and no one with any sense...would think of restrictions on purses.

And yet, continuing to use those exceedingly rare occasions where other than firearms (typically with high-capacity magazines) are used to kill more than one person, in one incident, is the distraction and justification used...and which mostly explains why nothing of significance has been accomplished toward the real problem.

The love of firearms and the sense of power/equalization they convey...is very addicting to a lot of people.

I am glad however, that you support more restrictions on car ownership as it relates to DUIs. I guess I missed seeing all of those posts on the topic.......

[ColdNoMore]

As usual, you make assumptions you shouldn't make.

I am glad however, that you support more restrictions on car ownership as it relates to DUIs. I guess I missed seeing all of those posts on the topic.......


Conversely, there seems to be a dearth of threads of restrictions on vehicle ownership/operation for any reason (DUI's/age/physical & mental impairments/Etc) and yet when it comes to guns, ANY guns...there seems to often be a visceral defense of them by some folks. :oops:

Start a thread on vehicle restrictions...and I'll be happy to post my views. :thumbup:

[Trayderjoe]

Conversely, there seems to be a dearth of threads of restrictions on vehicle ownership/operation for any reason (DUI's/age/physical & mental impairments/Etc) and yet when it comes to guns, ANY guns...there seems to often be a visceral defense of them by some folks. :oops:

Start a thread on vehicle restrictions...and I'll be happy to post my views. :thumbup:

Actually I did, it was called "Where is the uproar", related to alcohol related fatalities. It started out well, unfortunately there were some posters who chose to make it about guns so it went off topic. Sound familiar?

Unfortunately guns are a "hot topic", and yes there is a defense of the Second Amendment. People claim that they don't want to take away guns, and I see many posts that reference the need for "common sense gun laws", but no one can give examples of such laws. I know, as I have asked repeatedly for examples. IMO, the issue is that the focus continues to be on the how and not so much as the why-which is where this thread was going, but as usual, gets hijacked away from the why.

[luperona9]

The very definition of mass shooting is up for debate but of course like everything else is manipulated for a cause, a bad cause.

One part of a Three part series..

Who Are Mass Shooters? Mass Shooter Demographics | Center for Inquiry (https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/who-are-mass-shooters-mass-shooter-demographics-part-2/)

[luperona9]

More interesting reading on "mass shootings." At the end there is a lot of information on the definition of "mass."

FACT CHECK: Were None of 154 Mass Shootings in 2018 Committed by a Black Man, Illegal Alien, or Woman? (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/mass-shootings-in-2018/)

[Midnight Cowgirl]

So women can be macho also? What would you call a woman that owns firearms?

Steve


No, a woman cannot be macho or be a macho.
Any noun in Spanish, that ends in an "o," as an example, is always masculine.

I would call a woman that owns firearms exactly that -- a woman who owns firearms! ;)

[Number 10 GI]

So let's just give them easy access to the most efficient method possible. That's what you're saying. You're saying you can't stop people from doing stupid, dangerous, horrible things, so you might as well help them do it really really well.

The point I made is that the absence of guns did not stop murders. The knife took over as the most efficient method possible and apparently served quite well.

[Taltarzac725]

The point I made is that the absence of guns did not stop murders. The knife took over as the most efficient method possible and apparently served quite well.

I believe David used a rock with Goliath. Propelled by a slingshot though.

But the presence of a gun can stop quickly someone with a rock or knife. Unless a slingslot or throwing knife is involved.

genesis - How did Cain kill Abel? - Christianity Stack Exchange (https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/40324/how-did-cain-kill-abel)

[billethkid]

No, a woman cannot be macho or be a macho.
Any noun in Spanish, that ends in an "o," as an example, is always masculine.

I would call a woman that owns firearms exactly that -- a woman who owns firearms! ;)

Off the subject but can't resist temptation.
Masculine????
Such a characterization would not be allowed/tolerated in our current societal trend/tolerance!!!!!!!!

[Bay Kid]

Crazy is crazy. The world has always had crazies and, sorry to say, always will.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The point I made is that the absence of guns did not stop murders. The knife took over as the most efficient method possible and apparently served quite well.

The point I'm making is that our government didn't write legislation to specifically include knives in to laws permitting citizens to arm themselves. A knife is neither permitted nor forbidden, it's a knife. A tool that has MANY functions, only one of which is as a killing weapon, and even that function is secondary to its primary function, which is simply "to cut things".

A semi-automatic firearm's primary function is to kill, and yet it is written in as a permitted weapon. In other words - legislation exists to give murderers permission to possess these weapons. As long as they haven't been caught (yet) and have a clean record, there's really nothing to stop them from LEGALLY possessing these weapons that exist PRIMARILY to kill people (not animals, but people) because the law ALLOWS them to possess them.

[anothersteve]

.
A semi-automatic firearm's primary function is to kill, and yet it is written in as a permitted weapon. In other words - legislation exists to give murderers permission to possess these weapons. As long as they haven't been caught (yet) and have a clean record, there's really nothing to stop them from LEGALLY possessing these weapons that exist PRIMARILY to kill people (not animals, but people) because the law ALLOWS them to possess them.

Protect and kill goes hand in hand

"because the law ALLOWS them to possess them."
And the Constitution.

Steve

[manaboutown]

The latest news on the shooter is his behavior had become erratic and that he had been involved in scuffles with coworkers. Virginia Beach Gunman Had Been Facing Disciplinary Action for a 'Violent' Fight on 'City Grounds' (https://www.lifezette.com/2019/06/virginia-beach-gunman-had-been-facing-disciplinary-action-for-a-violent-fight-on-city-grounds/?fbclid=IwAR0Hg6vNdu7Ezo03pLd8iRuGnBcim5TP1mbSiaoO Lzs00zb8MQAMjPSVa5Y)

[Number 10 GI]

The point I'm making is that our government didn't write legislation to specifically include knives in to laws permitting citizens to arm themselves. A knife is neither permitted nor forbidden, it's a knife. A tool that has MANY functions, only one of which is as a killing weapon, and even that function is secondary to its primary function, which is simply "to cut things".

A semi-automatic firearm's primary function is to kill, and yet it is written in as a permitted weapon. In other words - legislation exists to give murderers permission to possess these weapons. As long as they haven't been caught (yet) and have a clean record, there's really nothing to stop them from LEGALLY possessing these weapons that exist PRIMARILY to kill people (not animals, but people) because the law ALLOWS them to possess them.
So how can you stop a murderer who hasn't been caught yet from doing in anything a non-murderer is allowed to do??? If they haven't been caught how are you supposed to know they are a murderer? Convicted felons aren't allowed to vote so do we ask a question at the polling place, "Are you a murderer that hasn't been caught" because if you are you can't vote?
We allow child molesters that haven't been caught yet to be around children. Rapists that haven't been caught yet are not listed on a sexual offender list. Alcoholics that haven't been caught yet are allowed to renew their driver's license and to operate a motor vehicle.
Knives have a long history of being used as a tool to kill and before the invention of the gun were the primary killing tool used by armies. Swords are nothing more than a long knife. There is no federal law prohibiting the carrying of a knife but there are states and many municipalities that restrict the type and size of a knife that a person may carry on their person.

[luperona9]

So how can you stop a murderer who hasn't been caught yet from doing in anything a non-murderer is allowed to do??? If they haven't been caught how are you supposed to know they are a murderer? Convicted felons aren't allowed to vote so do we ask a question at the polling place, "Are you a murderer that hasn't been caught" because if you are you can't vote?

We allow child molesters that haven't been caught yet to be around children. Rapists that haven't been caught yet are not listed on a sexual offender list. Alcoholics that haven't been caught yet are allowed to renew their driver's license and to operate a motor vehicle.

Knives have a long history of being used as a tool to kill and before the invention of the gun were the primary killing tool used by armies. Swords are nothing more than a long knife. There is no federal law prohibiting the carrying of a knife but there are states and many municipalities that restrict the type and size of a knife that a person may carry on their person.In NYC you can only carry a nail file. Oddly the criminals carry whatever they like.

[Topspinmo]

Oh please. I've been playing violent video and RPG games since Zork when I killed my first grue, and I haven't ever given a moment's thought to owning, let alone using, a firearm.

Millions of people play video games and RPGs and don't go out and kill people. There are also people who kill other people, who don't play violent video games. And you forgot the whole "oh they listen to death metal" rhetoric.

That's stuff and nonsense, propaganda created by the NRA to put the blame on anything except where it belongs: on lack of enforcement of existing gun laws, and gun laws that are not universal, thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.

Will NEVER get rid of all the guns, they don’t go off them selves. You can have death sentence on site if caught with gun and there will still be guns. The world supplies USA with guns some legal and some untraceable black market which most big time drug lords, gang members, and crinmals know how to get. As long as there are humans there will be guns. Most law bidding citizens don’t own guns.

[Topspinmo]

Crazy is crazy. The world has always had crazies and, sorry to say, always will.

:bigbow: and you can’t foresee in most cases or stop it.

[anothersteve]

Will NEVER get rid of all the guns, they don’t go off them selves. You can have death sentence on site if caught with gun and there will still be guns. The world supplies USA with guns some legal and some untraceable black market which most big time drug lords, gang members, and crinmals know how to get. As long as there are humans there will be guns. Most law bidding citizens don’t own guns.

I'll add to your last sentence to say.....
most law abiding "people" don't own "illegal" guns.
Steve

[Taltarzac725]

The point I'm making is that our government didn't write legislation to specifically include knives in to laws permitting citizens to arm themselves. A knife is neither permitted nor forbidden, it's a knife. A tool that has MANY functions, only one of which is as a killing weapon, and even that function is secondary to its primary function, which is simply "to cut things".

A semi-automatic firearm's primary function is to kill, and yet it is written in as a permitted weapon. In other words - legislation exists to give murderers permission to possess these weapons. As long as they haven't been caught (yet) and have a clean record, there's really nothing to stop them from LEGALLY possessing these weapons that exist PRIMARILY to kill people (not animals, but people) because the law ALLOWS them to possess them.

We could and should do something about those adjudicated by a competent and unbiased judge as mentally ill and their access to any kind of firearm. My brother-in-law thought my sister-in-law, his sister of course, had been taken over by an alien. And he got two semi-automatic pistols from VA gun show. He had never been found mentally ill though but did take his own like with one of those pistols. The proper checks-and-balances were not in place. This happened around October of 2014 that he took his life but my brother and sister-in-law were quite afraid of him long before that after they kicked him out of their house because he refused to get rid of those two pistols. He did not need them for anything. He lived with them in a very safe neighborhood.

[Velvet]

He may have had paranoid psychosis, a friend had some form of it. Such a person needs medical help. Mental illness is exactly like physical illness except we can’t always see it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Protect and kill goes hand in hand

"because the law ALLOWS them to possess them."
And the Constitution.

Steve

No, the constitution doesn't explicitly allow semi-automatic firearms. It allows firearms, as a generic term. The government has the right, and the responsibility to determine which firearms are permitted and which are not. That is why AK-47s are not permitted to be bought or carried by civilians. AR-15 should be returned to the same category. It was in that category, and it was removed from it. And now, the *majority* of mass shootings in this country over the past few years have been commited using the AR-15.

They need to be made harder to acquire. They can't be made impossible to acquire, because there is always an illegal way around anything these days. A single mass shooting prevented by a difficult acquisition process, is lives saved.

[Bucco]

No, the constitution doesn't explicitly allow semi-automatic firearms. It allows firearms, as a generic term. The government has the right, and the responsibility to determine which firearms are permitted and which are not. That is why AK-47s are not permitted to be bought or carried by civilians. AR-15 should be returned to the same category. It was in that category, and it was removed from it. And now, the *majority* of mass shootings in this country over the past few years have been commited using the AR-15.

They need to be made harder to acquire. They can't be made impossible to acquire, because there is always an illegal way around anything these days. A single mass shooting prevented by a difficult acquisition process, is lives saved.

I think your arguement is falling on deaf ears.

Those who differ with you have never seen a good friend have his head blown off right in front of him, or held folks with holes in their chest as they died. I have and since that.....wonder why ANYONE would want these weapons in their hands or allow strangers to have them.

I get the ammendment, and as someone who also worked in government, I respect our constitution and totally law and order.

I am also a realist who understand the cries to allow guns. I get it, but the argument is driven by those who the same folks who decry them meaning special interests.

When in government I learned NOTHING beats discussion and listening. Today we have neither.....either IN government or private citizens.

What you suggest would be thought of a a loss, not a compromise,....and would not serve the country or it citizens but "somebody"

If anyone has served and knows of what I speak.....but disagrees on another principal I do understand and hope nothing I said is offensive

[anothersteve]

No, the constitution doesn't explicitly allow semi-automatic firearms. It allows firearms, as a generic term.

It doesn't disallow them either.
"firearms as a "generic" term"? What the heck does that mean?
Steve

[Kenswing]

No, the constitution doesn't explicitly allow semi-automatic firearms. It allows firearms, as a generic term. The government has the right, and the responsibility to determine which firearms are permitted and which are not. That is why AK-47s are not permitted to be bought or carried by civilians. AR-15 should be returned to the same category. It was in that category, and it was removed from it. And now, the *majority* of mass shootings in this country over the past few years have been commited using the AR-15.

They need to be made harder to acquire. They can't be made impossible to acquire, because there is always an illegal way around anything these days. A single mass shooting prevented by a difficult acquisition process, is lives saved.

I suppose you'll also want to ban the Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle?

[Moderator]

Several posts have been removed as directed at member. Please discuss the topic and stop attacking the posters whose opinions differ from yours.

Moderator

[Bucco]

It doesn't disallow them either.
"firearms as a "generic" term"? What the heck does that mean?
Steve

A think a visit to the scholarly debates on this might be in order....

One side is that they sale of guns may be regulated...

"• Over the years, the federal courts have been nearly unanimous
that the Second Amendment protects only the collective right of
the states to maintain militias, and not an individual’s right to own
guns; the DC ruling is an exception to the rule."



Of course with the DC ruling the other side says...

"• The DC court‘s decision reflects an emerging scholarly consensus
that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to
keep and bear arms."

There are points on both sides but if you did not even understand why the question, I believe more reading is in line for you

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/guncontrol.pdf

Amendment II - The United States Constitution (https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-ii)

[Number 10 GI]

No, the constitution doesn't explicitly allow semi-automatic firearms. It allows firearms, as a generic term. The government has the right, and the responsibility to determine which firearms are permitted and which are not. That is why AK-47s are not permitted to be bought or carried by civilians. AR-15 should be returned to the same category. It was in that category, and it was removed from it. And now, the *majority* of mass shootings in this country over the past few years have been commited using the AR-15.

They need to be made harder to acquire. They can't be made impossible to acquire, because there is always an illegal way around anything these days. A single mass shooting prevented by a difficult acquisition process, is lives saved.

The semi-auto version of the AK47 is still available and is being sold every day. I can't find any information supporting your statement that the majority of mass shooting are committed using the AR15. The best I can find is 25-30 percent of mass shootings were done with "assault rifles". The majority is done using a hand gun. As to the term "mass shootings" there is no officially designated number of victims needed to qualify as a mass shooting. Four is a number I've seen that is an unofficial number but depending on whichever organization and their agenda, the number of victims varies and can be as low as two victims. Included in these mass shooting stats are gang shootings of other gang members.
Banning something doesn't make it that difficult for a determined individual to obtain whatever they want. Cocaine, heroin, crack and all the other addictive drugs are available in the smallest towns and even grade school children are able to buy them. It wouldn't surprise me that there may be a few drug dealers here in the villages. When you ban something people want all it does is open up that market to organized crime and they will supply anything you want.

[Topspinmo]

Oh please. I've been playing violent video and RPG games since Zork when I killed my first grue, and I haven't ever given a moment's thought to owning, let alone using, a firearm.

Millions of people play video games and RPGs and don't go out and kill people. There are also people who kill other people, who don't play violent video games. And you forgot the whole "oh they listen to death metal" rhetoric.

That's stuff and nonsense, propaganda created by the NRA to put the blame on anything except where it belongs: on lack of enforcement of existing gun laws, and gun laws that are not universal, thus allowing anyone to get a gun simply by crossing state lines.

SO, Just cause you’re mentally stable enough don’t me child care raised generations are who play video games all hours of the day and night can’t figure out reality.

[Topspinmo]

The semi-auto version of the AK47 is still available and is being sold every day. I can't find any information supporting your statement that the majority of mass shooting are committed using the AR15. The best I can find is 25-30 percent of mass shootings were done with "assault rifles". The majority is done using a hand gun. As to the term "mass shootings" there is no officially designated number of victims needed to qualify as a mass shooting. Four is a number I've seen that is an unofficial number but depending on whichever organization and their agenda, the number of victims varies and can be as low as two victims. Included in these mass shooting stats are gang shootings of other gang members.
Banning something doesn't make it that difficult for a determined individual to obtain whatever they want. Cocaine, heroin, crack and all the other addictive drugs are available in the smallest towns and even grade school children are able to buy them. It wouldn't surprise me that there may be a few drug dealers here in the villages. When you ban something people want all it does is open up that market to organized crime and they will supply anything you want.

You’re right fully automatic AK47s are not allowed without special permits, but there are plenty of knock offs in array of calibers that are not fully automatic, just like the AR15 is not M16. Law does not allow fully automatic assault military weapons without special permit. All other fall in firearm class where it be single shot, pump, lever, bolt, or semi-automatic delivery

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

It very well may be. But guns have never really been hard to get. Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country and they had 43 shootings over the Memorial Day weekend. But no outcry about that. As Bucco eluded, we've pretty much become numb to the violence.

In fact, guns have never been more difficult to obtain. We have never in our history had more restrictive or as many gun laws. The fact is that laws don't prevent crimes. Laws define crimes and provide punishment for those that are caught.

Why aren't those calling for more laws restricting guns simply calling for more laws restricting people from killing one another? The answer is that we already have enough laws that prohibit us from murdering one another and more laws won't prevent that.

Laws preventing citizens from owning semi automatic handguns like the ones used in this shooting will only take semi automatics out of the hands of good law abiding people. Unless we got rid of all guns in this country, people will get them illegally. Does anyone believe that feasible to get rid of all guns? Even if we did, does anyone think that guns wouldn't be brought in illegally?

London has banned citizens from owning guns and knife attacks have been on the rise. Now they are considering banning knives. I guess they'll be cutting up their meat pies with a fork.

Laws don't prevent crimes. Fewer guns in the hands of good law abiding citizens will only mean more guns, proportionally in the hands of criminals.

Limiting good law abiding citizens to revolvers will mean that semi autos will only be available on the black market so that only criminals will have them.

More laws are not the answer.

[Bucco]

Just for information sake....

"In 2011, the U.K. had 0.07 gun homicides for every 100,000 people; the U.S., by contrast, had 3 gun homicides for every 100,000. In 2009 there were 138 gun deaths in the U.K, where there are 6.7 firearms for every 100 people.

One reason contributing to this is the U.K.'s strict gun laws. According to an English rifle and gun club legal center, any person possessing a firearm in the U.K. must posses a Shotgun Certificate or a Firearm Certificate.

Machine guns, pepper spray, semi-automatic, and pump-action rifles, and any firearm that has a barrel less than 30 centimeters in length are prohibited.

The only firearms that can be owned legally are shotguns, black powder weapons, manually-loaded cartridge pistols and manually-loaded center-fire rifles, all termed "Section 1" firearms.

To gain a firearm certificate, applicants must be over age 14, and must demonstrate they have satisfactory security and "good reason" to own a rifle. Applicants must declare all criminal convictions and name two references to support the application. Applications must be renewed every five years.

The requirements are largely the same for a shotgun certificate, although the applicant doesn't need two references, only one counter-signatory — and there is no minimum age."

These Laws Are The Reason Canada, Australia, Japan And The UK Have Such Low Gun Homicide Rates - Business Insider (https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1)

These are factual laws. Now, if you wish, visit YOUTUBE, and you will be treated to propaganda insisting the opposite. I have seen then. They are full of half truths, easily debunked if you want.

[dewilson58]

The toughest gun laws in the USA are in Illinois, How's that working out for Chicago??

[Chi-Town]

The toughest gun laws in the USA are in Illinois, How's that working out for Chicago??Actually Illinois is ranked #9.
But whatever fits the narrative.

10 states with the strictest gun laws | Deseret News (https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html)



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[ColdNoMore]

Just for information sake....

"In 2011, the U.K. had 0.07 gun homicides for every 100,000 people; the U.S., by contrast, had 3 gun homicides for every 100,000. In 2009 there were 138 gun deaths in the U.K, where there are 6.7 firearms for every 100 people.

One reason contributing to this is the U.K.'s strict gun laws. According to an English rifle and gun club legal center, any person possessing a firearm in the U.K. must posses a Shotgun Certificate or a Firearm Certificate.

Machine guns, pepper spray, semi-automatic, and pump-action rifles, and any firearm that has a barrel less than 30 centimeters in length are prohibited.

The only firearms that can be owned legally are shotguns, black powder weapons, manually-loaded cartridge pistols and manually-loaded center-fire rifles, all termed "Section 1" firearms.

To gain a firearm certificate, applicants must be over age 14, and must demonstrate they have satisfactory security and "good reason" to own a rifle. Applicants must declare all criminal convictions and name two references to support the application. Applications must be renewed every five years.

The requirements are largely the same for a shotgun certificate, although the applicant doesn't need two references, only one counter-signatory — and there is no minimum age."

These Laws Are The Reason Canada, Australia, Japan And The UK Have Such Low Gun Homicide Rates - Business Insider (https://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1)

These are factual laws. Now, if you wish, visit YOUTUBE, and you will be treated to propaganda insisting the opposite. I have seen then. They are full of half truths, easily debunked if you want.

Thanks for the link...and facts.

It is refreshing to see them. :thumbup:

[dewilson58]

Actually Illinois is ranked #9.
But whatever fits the narrative.

10 states with the strictest gun laws | Deseret News (https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html)



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk




Old information, but even if it is #9 today.........say point: Tough gun laws is not helping Chicago shootings.

[Bucco]

Old information, but even if it is #9 today.........say point: Tough gun laws is not helping Chicago shootings.

The topic was NOT Chicago.

Why do people insist on using lies, and for the most part known lies to try to bolster an argument. Same thing on schools....telling lies about Israel. What do people get out of standing behind and supporting lies.

It would greatly irritate me, if I supported a group who told me lies, and assume I am so stupid that I cannot see through them, and then to repeat lies.

What has happened. We used to learn from each other in this world....now we trash and demean others who show the way instead of learning, we tell lies about them

There are valid points to be made......why not use the nes that are true.

Yes.....WE can learn from others, and as we slip in pretty much every international ranking there is, we stand tall and use lies to demean those who are succeeding.

I stay out of this discussion pretty much, but when I read...it's not guns, it's video games, or when I read more lying about others to "support" a position, it's difficult any more to remain silent.

The answers are there.....some just bury their head and refuse to even discuss it. Would it not be great to at least hear open public discussion on the two (I think it's two..at least one) bills already passed by one house and buried never to be discussed or voted on.

Why ?

[Bucco]

Thanks for the link...and facts.

It is refreshing to see them. :thumbup:

I simply get frustrated. I read other threads that speak to advice given to children.

Would you, or have you ever told your children....follow and support a total lie, as long as it services you ?

I sure hope not

[Moderator]

The topic was the mass workplace shooting in Virginia Beach. As with many of these threads, it has devolved into a gun control discussion with the same players espousing the same arguments.

RIP to the victims in Va. Beach.

Thread closed.