Another mass shooting

[Kilmacowen]

Another mass shooting at a mall in El Paso. Multiple fatalities reported and injured. When is something going to be done?

[Bucco]

Another mass shooting at a mall in El Paso. Multiple fatalities reported and injured. When is something going to be done?

Anyone know of even conversation taking place about a uniquely American situation ?

Anyone know of any legislation being discussed ?

[Number 10 GI]

Anyone know of even conversation taking place about a uniquely American situation ?

Anyone know of any legislation being discussed ?

It's already illegal to murder someone and also illegal to willfully injure a person, so what additional legislation will stop this type of crime?

[Bucco]

It's already illegal to murder someone and also illegal to willfully injure a person, so what additional legislation will stop this type of crime?

Well, I see gun and ease of buying as a common denominator,

To be fair, I am not a gun owner, but buying guns sems so easy. and building an arsenal with accessories is becoming common.

It does not happen like this in other countries and thus I suggest maybe just talking about something that, once again, is unique to America. Isn't this the third one this week ?

I just find it offensive to think we simply accept this stuff where our kids and grand kids are gunned down and we stay silent.

[anothersteve]

Anyone know of even conversation taking place about a uniquely American situation ?

Anyone know of any legislation being discussed ?

How do you legislate mental illness? You know it will come out...again, the other common denominator, that the shooter, or it looks like possibly shooters, were and are wackos. I'm not going to say too much anymore on the gun "debate" , it get's nowhere here, and it's never civil.
Steve

[manaboutown]

It does not happen like this in other countries and thus I suggest maybe just talking about something that, once again, is unique to America. Isn't this the third one this week ?

Juarez murders reach nearly 200 a month as Mexico’s next president prepares to face the violence | Mexico | Dallas News (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/mexico/2018/08/06/juarez-murders-reach-nearly-200-month-mexicos-new-president-prepares-face-violence)

I realize it's old news, 2018.

Of the 86 countries where we have identified mass public shootings, the US ranks 56th per capita in its rate of attacks and 61st in mass public shooting murder rate. Norway, Finland, Switzerland and Russia all have at least 45 percent higher rates of murder from mass public shootings than the United States.

From America doesn’t actually lead the world in mass shootings (https://nypost.com/2018/08/30/america-doesnt-actually-lead-the-world-in-mass-shootings/)

And as for intentional homicides it just a smidgeon worse in Canada. List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Well, I see gun and ease of buying as a common denominator,

To be fair, I am not a gun owner, but buying guns sems so easy. and building an arsenal with accessories is becoming common.

It does not happen like this in other countries and thus I suggest maybe just talking about something that, once again, is unique to America. Isn't this the third one this week ?

I just find it offensive to think we simply accept this stuff where our kids and grand kids are gunned down and we stay silent.


Yes, it IS too easy for just about anyone to obtain a weapon whether it be by legal or nonlegal methods.

I am not going into gun control, but it would seem that there needs to be some form of it -- a check and balance of some type if you will, or this kind of horror will continue.

And even with some form of control, it would probably be a long time before many of the illegal forms of ownership can be controlled and/or taken off the street.
While I have my own personal thoughts, it's obviously the time is past due for something to be done.

I am not going into the politics of the subject, but there is far too much talk and not enough action (as in none!)!

[GrumpyOldMan]

How do you legislate mental illness? You know it will come out...again, the other common denominator, that the shooter, or it looks like possibly shooters, were and are wackos. I'm not going to say too much anymore on the gun "debate" , it get's nowhere here, and it's never civil.
Steve

I am a progressive and I agree with the comments that this problem will not be legislated away. This is a cultural problem. There are MANY reasons for this and there is no "silver bullet" that is going to make it go away.

I also think this comment "Mental illness" is closer to the truth that the OP actually meant. I believe it is one of many forms of mental illness to kill anyone that is not a threat to you.

I believe the answer is to first understand the problem, which will require a lot of research, and most sources of data for that research are currently unfunded by the Federal government.

[Number 10 GI]

Well, I see gun and ease of buying as a common denominator,

To be fair, I am not a gun owner, but buying guns sems so easy. and building an arsenal with accessories is becoming common.

It does not happen like this in other countries and thus I suggest maybe just talking about something that, once again, is unique to America. Isn't this the third one this week ?

I just find it offensive to think we simply accept this stuff where our kids and grand kids are gunned down and we stay silent.

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people, many of whom were children, with a rental truck filled with a mixture of fertilizer and diesel. In Europe there have been numerous murders committed with motor vehicles. Mexico makes it nearly impossible for the average citizen to own a gun. Back in the late 80's or 90's I read a report that in Mexico there were more knife homicides than homicides committed in the US by all means, guns, knives, clubs, fits, etc. In Japan a group of people used sarin gas in an attack on the subway system. 12 people were killed and many injured. Restricting gun ownership won't do much to reduce homicide, a person determined to kill will find some means of doing so.
We have a violence problem in this country, not just gun violence. Look at the so-called anti fascists, they assault people with fists, clubs, and iron pipes. A group of these cowards attacked an Asian media reporter and hospitalized him. No guns used, just fists, feet and clubs. Road rage incidents where people run each other off the road. Spouse abuse, child abuse, elder abuse. Verbal abuse and bullying on the social media outlets causing young children to commit suicide. We need to determine the cause of violence and work on eliminating it. Eliminating the tool used in violence does nothing to stop the violent behavior. I'll say it again, WE HAVE A VIOLENCE PROBLEM in this country that no one is talking about.

[Aces4]

This is only going to get better when sanitariums are reopened or lobotomies performed, sadly.

Anyone believing banning guns will fix the problem must be unaware of knives, bombs, chemical poisoning, arson, poison gases, product tampering, highway death traps and on and on.

Normal people wouldn’t think of it, the mentally ill are obsessed with it. The police can somewhat limit gun violence, other methods could be catastrophic. We need to look at what is our best defense.

[Number 10 GI]

Yes, it IS too easy for just about anyone to obtain a weapon whether it be by legal or nonlegal methods.

I am not going into gun control, but it would seem that there needs to be some form of it -- a check and balance of some type if you will, or this kind of horror will continue.

And even with some form of control, it would probably be a long time before many of the illegal forms of ownership can be controlled and/or taken off the street.
While I have my own personal thoughts, it's obviously the time is past due for something to be done.

I am not going into the politics of the subject, but there is far too much talk and not enough action (as in none!)!

Have you ever bought a gun? Under federal law you are required to have a background check done when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. In addition Florida has a 3 day waiting period after the background check before you can take possession of the firearm. Federal law prohibits people with felony convictions and people convicted of domestic violence from purchasing, owning or possessing a firearm. Many criminals obtain guns through what is called a straw purchaser. A non-felon friend, girlfriend, wife, etc. will legally purchase the gun for the felon. This is a felony itself but prosecutors very seldom prosecute the straw purchaser. Drugs are illegal but you can buy them in the smallest towns. I heard that there were a couple incidents of drugs houses here in TV. Prohibition was a disaster, there was more alcohol consumption during prohibition than before or after. Organized crime provided a product that people were willing to pay big money for. The same for drugs, crime organizations smuggle drugs into countries and make billions in profit. Make guns illegal and again organized crime will step in and provide what ever the crazies and criminals need to accomplish the deed they wish to commit. As I said earlier, we have a violence problem, lets work on that.

[Bucco]

This is only going to get better when sanitariums are reopened or lobotomies performed, sadly.

Anyone believing banning guns will fix the problem must be unaware of knives, bombs, chemical poisoning, arson, poison gases, product tampering, highway death traps and on and on.

Normal people wouldn’t think of it, the mentally ill are obsessed with it. The police can somewhat limit gun violence, other methods could be catastrophic. We need to look at what is our best defense.

1. I never said to ban guns or even hinted at that. That is a gut reaction to make that accusation from some corners.

2. I was not speaking of murders thus I understand the murder rate. I do not understand the ease in which folks get guns, but I get the impression that simply makes me stupid, so be it.

My main thrust Is that in a few days this conversation will cease. It will not even be spoken of. I simply would feel better if our leaders at least discussed it. We Are quick to jump quickly and rudely on mundane and personal things but seem unequipped to discuss this.

As i said, I have no gun......I know guns.....from Nam, but have no desire to own one.

i just know we are not only killing our young people, we are traumatizing those who "survive"

Your key point...."we need to take a look at..." WHEN IS MY QUESTION ?

[Bucco]

Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people, many of whom were children, with a rental truck filled with a mixture of fertilizer and diesel. In Europe there have been numerous murders committed with motor vehicles. Mexico makes it nearly impossible for the average citizen to own a gun. Back in the late 80's or 90's I read a report that in Mexico there were more knife homicides than homicides committed in the US by all means, guns, knives, clubs, fits, etc. In Japan a group of people used sarin gas in an attack on the subway system. 12 people were killed and many injured. Restricting gun ownership won't do much to reduce homicide, a person determined to kill will find some means of doing so.
We have a violence problem in this country, not just gun violence. Look at the so-called anti fascists, they assault people with fists, clubs, and iron pipes. A group of these cowards attacked an Asian media reporter and hospitalized him. No guns used, just fists, feet and clubs. Road rage incidents where people run each other off the road. Spouse abuse, child abuse, elder abuse. Verbal abuse and bullying on the social media outlets causing young children to commit suicide. We need to determine the cause of violence and work on eliminating it. Eliminating the tool used in violence does nothing to stop the violent behavior. I'll say it again, WE HAVE A VIOLENCE PROBLEM in this country that no one is talking about.

I agree....we talk about nothing like this in this country. You mention anti fascists in your post......not sure how to reply to that.....are youy PRO fascists ? The FBI just recently warned us all about QAnon, yet they are accepted.

I have a distaste for violence totally and in any form, under any and all names. I have seen what hate and violence can do in the name of what the accolytes proclaim it to be. It is still VIOLENCE, and it ALWAYS perpetuates more violence.

[billethkid]

Chicago and NYC have some of the toughest gun laws in the USA.

Check and see how well those work!

It ain't the gun!!

[Bogie Shooter]

Have you ever bought a gun? Under federal law you are required to have a background check done when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. In addition Florida has a 3 day waiting period after the background check before you can take possession of the firearm. Federal law prohibits people with felony convictions and people convicted of domestic violence from purchasing, owning or possessing a firearm. Many criminals obtain guns through what is called a straw purchaser. A non-felon friend, girlfriend, wife, etc. will legally purchase the gun for the felon. This is a felony itself but prosecutors very seldom prosecute the straw purchaser. Drugs are illegal but you can buy them in the smallest towns. I heard that there were a couple incidents of drugs houses here in TV. Prohibition was a disaster, there was more alcohol consumption during prohibition than before or after. Organized crime provided a product that people were willing to pay big money for. The same for drugs, crime organizations smuggle drugs into countries and make billions in profit. Make guns illegal and again organized crime will step in and provide what ever the crazies and criminals need to accomplish the deed they wish to commit. As I said earlier, we have a violence problem, lets work on that.

Now, where the h&%% did you hear that???

[Bogie Shooter]

Chicago and NYC have some of the toughest gun laws in the USA.

Check and see how well those work!

It ain't the gun!!

Just go to an adjoining state and buy it there...………...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Chicago and NYC have some of the toughest gun laws in the USA.

Check and see how well those work!

It ain't the gun!!

No, it's not the gun. It is the ease of acquiring one by simply driving over the state line, buying one legally there, and bringing it back home.

ANYONE with a fake ID can get a gun at a gun show. No background check required, no proof that you know how to use it, no license necessary.

Firearms are too easy for ANYONE to get. The government needs to provide more accountability to both the buyer and the seller.

Regarding killing people with a car or a truck filled with fertilizer and fuel (to whoever posted that) none of those three things are made exclusively for the purpose of killing anyone (or anything). Fertilizer's function is to help things GROW. Deisel is a fuel that is designed to - fuel things. Cars are designed to get people from point A to point B. Guns are designed to shoot things and people. Semi-automatic rifles are designed to shoot -and- kill lots of people in a short period of time.

That is the reason why guns exist in the first place.

A license to drive a car is what you get after proving you know how to drive the car. A license to own a firearm is what you get after proving you - want to own a firearm.

There needs to be more control, more accountability, more checks and balances. Right now it's just too easy for any crackpot to walk into a gun show, buy a gun, leave, and shoot up a store.

[bob47]

Mental illness is certainly a component. The trouble is, we give people access to mass killing machines - how else would you describe these semi-automatic military weapons? - when they fill out paper work and it is decided that they are OK to own one today.

But what happens when they flip out 2 years from now and they own a powerful semi-automatic weapon? Nobody has ever explained how you check on their continued mental balance after they bought the weapon.

[retiredguy123]

The problem is who will decide whether a person who wants to buy a gun is or is not a "crackpot"?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The problem is who will decide whether a person who wants to buy a gun is or is not a "crackpot"?

Well let's see. If they've been regular visitors to the local drug rehab center courtesy of a court order, it's a pretty good guess that they probably shouldn't own a firearm. If they have an existing, active diagnosis of borderline personality disorder with delusional tendencies, I'm thinking maybe nix on the AR-15. If she was hospitalized in the last year for attempted suicide - don't issue a license, don't sell the gun.

While this information isn't public knowledge unless it's the result of a court order, it is in a database. Any time a patient poses a threat to anyone including themselves, that information is put into a database.

The seller doesn't even need to know WHY they're being told not to sell the gun. They only need to know "this person has a red flag on her request."

[Trayderjoe]

No, it's not the gun. It is the ease of acquiring one by simply driving over the state line, buying one legally there, and bringing it back home.

It is actually ILLEGAL to sell a firearm to a resident of another state without going through a dealer, and sellers cannot ship directly to (non-FFL) buyers in another state.

ANYONE with a fake ID can get a gun at a gun show. No background check required, no proof that you know how to use it, no license necessary.

This is an incorrect statement as written. A background check IS required at gun shows when a dealer sells a gun to an individual.

Firearms are too easy for ANYONE to get. The government needs to provide more accountability to both the buyer and the seller.

Regarding killing people with a car or a truck filled with fertilizer and fuel (to whoever posted that) none of those three things are made exclusively for the purpose of killing anyone (or anything). Fertilizer's function is to help things GROW. Deisel is a fuel that is designed to - fuel things. Cars are designed to get people from point A to point B. Guns are designed to shoot things and people. Semi-automatic rifles are designed to shoot -and- kill lots of people in a short period of time.

A semi-automatic rifle shoots one round of ammunition for each trigger pull- exactly the same rate as a semi-automatic handgun or a revolver. And to head off the "modified gun argument", if a gun was modified to be automatic, that act would be illegal and now we are no longer talking about responsible, legal owners of guns.

The corollary? Taking fertilizer, using it to make a bomb, and taking a car to make it the delivery vehicle for the bomb. You start with something legal, and in this case, there are NO background checks to purchase fertilizer or a car, unlike the background checks required to legally purchase a gun from a dealer.

That is the reason why guns exist in the first place.

A license to drive a car is what you get after proving you know how to drive the car. A license to own a firearm is what you get after proving you - want to own a firearm.

Acquiring a license to concealed carry a firearm requires certification after passing a handgun safety course, fingerprinting, and a background check. If for example, you are a felon or have been adjudicated to have a mental illness, you can't get a license.

There needs to be more control, more accountability, more checks and balances. Right now it's just too easy for any crackpot to walk into a gun show, buy a gun, leave, and shoot up a store.

Others have touched on the "violence problem" and mental illness. Actually this is where we need to be looking. Why is the suicide rate rising? Why do people not value life and choose violence as the answer? I remember a teenager being killed over a quarter when I was in junior high school. A quarter! Instead of fixating on the method, we need to understand the why.

Oh and by the way, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that almost 30 people PER DAY are killed as a result of drunk driving crashes (link (https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving)). Cars may not have been designed primarily to kill, but they are certainly effective at doing it WHEN USED ILLEGALLY.

[B-flat]

Others have touched on the "violence problem" and mental illness. Actually this is where we need to be looking. Why is the suicide rate rising? Why do people not value life and choose violence as the answer? I remember a teenager being killed over a quarter when I was in junior high school. A quarter! Instead of fixating on the method, we need to understand the why.

I have no answers, but God has been removed from many things in life the maybe that plays into it?

[retiredguy123]

Well let's see. If they've been regular visitors to the local drug rehab center courtesy of a court order, it's a pretty good guess that they probably shouldn't own a firearm. If they have an existing, active diagnosis of borderline personality disorder with delusional tendencies, I'm thinking maybe nix on the AR-15. If she was hospitalized in the last year for attempted suicide - don't issue a license, don't sell the gun.

While this information isn't public knowledge unless it's the result of a court order, it is in a database. Any time a patient poses a threat to anyone including themselves, that information is put into a database.

The seller doesn't even need to know WHY they're being told not to sell the gun. They only need to know "this person has a red flag on her request."
So, if a person has a mental issue and wants to seek treatment, do they need to jeopardize their right to buy a gun? If so, then I think that some people might just choose to not seek the treatment they need.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Texas has an open carry policy. It does not require background checks for firearm purchases. You can buy a semi-automatic weapon in any gun shop in Texas, and Walmart sells guns in El Paso. Lots of guns all over the place in Texas, including El Paso. No license necessary, it is not required in Texas. You only need a conceal license for handguns, but no license at all for open carry. Not a single person attempted to stop the shooter.

[Trayderjoe]

I have no answers, but God has been removed from many things in life the maybe that plays into it?

I would not disagree with this statement. Do I think it is the only answer? No, but I think it might be a contributory cause. Unfortunately, in my opinion, if we continue to look at the how instead of the why, we won't move closer to finding the answers.

[Trayderjoe]

Texas has an open carry policy. It does not require background checks for firearm purchases. You can buy a semi-automatic weapon in any gun shop in Texas, and Walmart sells guns in El Paso. Lots of guns all over the place in Texas, including El Paso. No license necessary, it is not required in Texas. You only need a conceal license for handguns, but no license at all for open carry. Not a single person attempted to stop the shooter.

Background checks for firearm purchase from a licensed dealer are required by FEDERAL law, so no, you can't buy a firearm from a licensed dealer without one in Texas.

[Kenswing]

Texas has an open carry policy. It does not require background checks for firearm purchases. You can buy a semi-automatic weapon in any gun shop in Texas, and Walmart sells guns in El Paso. Lots of guns all over the place in Texas, including El Paso. No license necessary, it is not required in Texas. You only need a conceal license for handguns, but no license at all for open carry. Not a single person attempted to stop the shooter.
Do you just make this stuff up as you go along? Open carry has nothing to do with purchasing a gun and background checks. Even TX has to follow Federal law..

[Trayderjoe]

Here is a link to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (link (https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics))

And here too is the Federal Firearm Laws Quick Reference sheet (link (https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics))

The Federal Gun Control regulations are in Title 18 of the United States Code Chapter 44.

[manaboutown]

Too many psychos out there. They may be only one in 10,000 but that is 100 in a million.

[anothersteve]

Just go to an adjoining state and buy it there...………...
No you can't. For someone that likes facts and figures, links........you
just don't know.
Steve

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Background checks are NOT required by federal law for private sales, and Texas has no restrictions requiring them either. ANYONE can get a gun in Texas, legally, without a background check. You're not required to go through a licensed dealer to get a gun. At least, not in Texas, where the El Paso shooting happened.

[Number 10 GI]

Texas has an open carry policy. It does not require background checks for firearm purchases. You can buy a semi-automatic weapon in any gun shop in Texas, and Walmart sells guns in El Paso. Lots of guns all over the place in Texas, including El Paso. No license necessary, it is not required in Texas. You only need a conceal license for handguns, but no license at all for open carry. Not a single person attempted to stop the shooter.

I don't know where you get your information but federal law requires all purchasers to undergo a background check before they can purchase a firearm. You cannot walk into a gun shop and buy without passing the check. That is the law in every state and territory. As far as not a single person attempted to stop the shooter, maybe there wasn't anyone there with a gun to stop him. An individual with a carry permit does not have police power and most law enforcement people and firearms training instructors will tell you not to intercede in a situation such as this one. Remember in the news not too long ago there was a shooting in a mall I believe. A young black man, former Army or Marine, with a license to carry a firearm saw the shooter, pulled his gun and started to stalk the shooter. A responding police officer saw him and thinking he was the active shooter he was sent to investigate, shot the young man dead.

[anothersteve]

Background checks are NOT required by federal law for private sales, and Texas has no restrictions requiring them either. ANYONE can get a gun in Texas, legally, without a background check. You're not required to go through a licensed dealer to get a gun. At least, not in Texas, where the El Paso shooting happened.

You are NOT buying a gun "off the rack" in Texas if you are from out of state without a check.

Background Checks in Texas | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/background-checks-in-texas/)
"Federal law does not require dealers to conduct a background check if a firearm purchaser presents a state permit to purchase or possess firearms that meets certain conditions."

Texas Gun Laws - Our Texas Gun Laws made Simple! (https://www.texasgunlaws.org/)
"Q: What is required to purchase a firearm in the state of Texas?
A: You will need a valid state-issued ID. Many FFLs will not sell to out-of-state residents. This is due to the FFL’s requirement to uphold your resident state’s gun laws, and the inherient complexity associated with many states."

Texas Concealed Carry Gun Laws | USCCA CCW Reciprocity Map (Last Updated 06/25/2019) (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/tx-gun-laws/)

Background Check Procedures: State by State | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/state-law/50-state-summaries/background-check-procedures-state-by-state/)

Steve

[Number 10 GI]

Yes, it IS too easy for just about anyone to obtain a weapon whether it be by legal or nonlegal methods.

I am not going into gun control, but it would seem that there needs to be some form of it -- a check and balance of some type if you will, or this kind of horror will continue.

And even with some form of control, it would probably be a long time before many of the illegal forms of ownership can be controlled and/or taken off the street.
While I have my own personal thoughts, it's obviously the time is past due for something to be done.

I am not going into the politics of the subject, but there is far too much talk and not enough action (as in none!)!
How do you stop non-legal means of obtaining a gun? Has making the possession and sale of drugs illegal stopped the drug trade? Please use some common sense instead of emotion. There are checks required to purchase a firearm. All licensed gun dealers are required to perform a background check on all buyers and the buyer must pass the check.

[Number 10 GI]

I agree....we talk about nothing like this in this country. You mention anti fascists in your post......not sure how to reply to that.....are youy PRO fascists ? The FBI just recently warned us all about QAnon, yet they are accepted.

I have a distaste for violence totally and in any form, under any and all names. I have seen what hate and violence can do in the name of what the accolytes proclaim it to be. It is still VIOLENCE, and it ALWAYS perpetuates more violence.

No I'm not pro fascist, I was referencing to them as a group that is extremely violent. They claim that their violence is justified because they are freedom fighters.

[Number 10 GI]

Now, where the h&%% did you hear that???
A long term TV resident I've know for close to 30 years. He stated that there were two incidents where family members of two TV residents were selling drugs from their home. It wasn't like the drug houses in the bad parts of large cities but they were dealing drugs from there. He stated that it was problem children/grandchildren of the TV residents. Why is it so hard to believe that it happened? Not everyone here is a law abiding citizen, this is a town with good and bad people just like those outside of this bubble. Maybe publication of this was muted so as not to besmirch the reputation of the friendliest town in America.

[anothersteve]

Now, where the h&%% did you hear that???
Drug raid in The Villages retirement community nets evidence of golf cart 'chop shop' (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/06/28/drug-raid-villages-retirement-community-nets-evidence-golf-cart-chop-shop/435205001/)


Steve

[Number 10 GI]

Just go to an adjoining state and buy it there...………...
You cannot purchase a handgun in a neighboring state and walk out with it. You can purchase it and have it shipped to a federally licensed gun dealer in your home state where you will have to undergo and pass a background check before you may take possession of the gun, no exceptions.
A long gun, rifle or shotgun, can be purchased from a neighboring state and you may take possession of it then and there. However, if your home state prohibits possession of that gun the neighbor state dealer cannot sell the gun to you. What ever restrictions your home state places on you or the firearm, the neighboring state dealer cannot sell the gun to you if it violates those restrictions.

An out of state private individual cannot legally sell you a hand gun unless he ships it to a licensed dealer in your state. The same restrictions a dealer must comply with on long guns applies to the private out of state seller also.

[anothersteve]

You cannot purchase a handgun in a neighboring state and walk out with it. You can purchase it and have it shipped to a federally licensed gun dealer in your home state where you will have to undergo and pass a background check before you may take possession of the gun, no exceptions.
A long gun, rifle or shotgun, can be purchased from a neighboring state and you may take possession of it then and there. However, if your home state prohibits possession of that gun the neighbor state dealer cannot sell the gun to you. What ever restrictions your home state places on you or the firearm, the neighboring state dealer cannot sell the gun to you if it violates those restrictions.

An out of state private individual cannot legally sell you a hand gun unless he ships it to a licensed dealer in your state. The same restrictions a dealer must comply with on long guns applies to the private out of state seller also.

Hope this educates a few. Thanks
Steve

[Number 10 GI]

No, it's not the gun. It is the ease of acquiring one by simply driving over the state line, buying one legally there, and bringing it back home.

ANYONE with a fake ID can get a gun at a gun show. No background check required, no proof that you know how to use it, no license necessary.

Firearms are too easy for ANYONE to get. The government needs to provide more accountability to both the buyer and the seller.

Regarding killing people with a car or a truck filled with fertilizer and fuel (to whoever posted that) none of those three things are made exclusively for the purpose of killing anyone (or anything). Fertilizer's function is to help things GROW. Deisel is a fuel that is designed to - fuel things. Cars are designed to get people from point A to point B. Guns are designed to shoot things and people. Semi-automatic rifles are designed to shoot -and- kill lots of people in a short period of time.

That is the reason why guns exist in the first place.

A license to drive a car is what you get after proving you know how to drive the car. A license to own a firearm is what you get after proving you - want to own a firearm.

There needs to be more control, more accountability, more checks and balances. Right now it's just too easy for any crackpot to walk into a gun show, buy a gun, leave, and shoot up a store.

The point I was making is that you don't need a firearm to kill people. Many objects that weren't designed to use as a weapon have been utilized as a weapon and killed a lot of people. When someone can't get a firearm they will find something else to use to do the crime. Again, WE HAVE A VIOLENCE PROBLEM, eliminating one tool used to commit violence will not stop the violence, another tool will be used. What is so hard to understand about that?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm not suggesting that we "eliminate" a tool to commit violence. I'm saying provide better checks and balances, and accountability for both the buyer and the seller, and make it a NATIONAL regulation, not a state-wide regulation. There is nothing preventing someone from going to any state that allows them to legally buy a gun, and legally buying one. And then, once that person has possession of that gun, bringing it back to their state, where state regulations prohibit them from buying it (because licensing, conceal carry, mental illness checks not done, no testing, whatever. WHATEVER REASON.)

If it is illegal for them to get it in the next state also, then it will be more difficult for them to get a gun. They'll still be able to get one. But it'll be harder to do. AND - just the fact that they got one at all, in ANY state, would mean they violated the law.

In some states, the regulations and restrictions are stricter than in other states. There is no consistency. That is WHY Chicago has the problems it has. Chicago is an example of a city that will always have problems. But it is AS BAD as it is, because of the ease of LEGALLY acquiring a firearm across state lines.

The regulations - whatever they are, however strict or loose, need to be nationwide.

And again - "other tools" don't exist for the express purpose of killing. The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is its #1 primary function. It has limited use in anything else other than target practice, which is what you do when you're trying to be good at killing.

[Aces4]

Clarification for poster below:

[Aces4]

1. I never said to ban guns or even hinted at that. That is a gut reaction to make that accusation from some corners.

2. I was not speaking of murders thus I understand the murder rate. I do not understand the ease in which folks get guns, but I get the impression that simply makes me stupid, so be it.

My main thrust Is that in a few days this conversation will cease. It will not even be spoken of. I simply would feel better if our leaders at least discussed it. We Are quick to jump quickly and rudely on mundane and personal things but seem unequipped to discuss this.

As i said, I have no gun......I know guns.....from Nam, but have no desire to own one.

i just know we are not only killing our young people, we are traumatizing those who "survive"

Your key point...."we need to take a look at..." WHEN IS MY QUESTION ?

I don’t know why you felt guilty when I made this statement, it was Midnight Cowgirl who suggested banning some guns may be the answer. To be honest, I didn’t read your post and really didn’t pay attention to your position. Carry on!

[Taltarzac725]

I'm not suggesting that we "eliminate" a tool to commit violence. I'm saying provide better checks and balances, and accountability for both the buyer and the seller, and make it a NATIONAL regulation, not a state-wide regulation. There is nothing preventing someone from going to any state that allows them to legally buy a gun, and legally buying one. And then, once that person has possession of that gun, bringing it back to their state, where state regulations prohibit them from buying it (because licensing, conceal carry, mental illness checks not done, no testing, whatever. WHATEVER REASON.)

If it is illegal for them to get it in the next state also, then it will be more difficult for them to get a gun. They'll still be able to get one. But it'll be harder to do. AND - just the fact that they got one at all, in ANY state, would mean they violated the law.

In some states, the regulations and restrictions are stricter than in other states. There is no consistency. That is WHY Chicago has the problems it has. Chicago is an example of a city that will always have problems. But it is AS BAD as it is, because of the ease of LEGALLY acquiring a firearm across state lines.

The regulations - whatever they are, however strict or loose, need to be nationwide.

And again - "other tools" don't exist for the express purpose of killing. The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is its #1 primary function. It has limited use in anything else other than target practice, which is what you do when you're trying to be good at killing.

We need more lawyers suing gun manufacturers like with the tobacco companies. Them winning is a harder matter.

There are many guns that should simply be taken off the market and bought back if possible. Guns designed for the use of soldiers and really not so much for anything else.

More education about mental illness and a concentrated effort to get people to deal with it within their own families and in their communities. Same with virtual (online) and real life (person-to-person) bullying.

A lot can be done. Education and empathy for survivors/victim are key.

[Nucky]

Do you know what one of the officials at the scene in Texas just said? Many bodies have not even been recovered from the Crime Scene. Stop trying to figure this out and wait until we clear the Walmart before trying this case in the press and coming to conclusions. I apologize, this would be one of the times where the name of the person would be helpful but I missed it.

Some of the people trying to score points off this tragedy is disgusting. Those name I know but can't say them.

[graciegirl]

How do you stop non-legal means of obtaining a gun? Has making the possession and sale of drugs illegal stopped the drug trade? Please use some common sense instead of emotion. There are checks required to purchase a firearm. All licensed gun dealers are required to perform a background check on all buyers and the buyer must pass the check.

He is right. The bad guys just steal them. If every law was passed so no gun would ever again be sold, and guns were taken from people, the bad guys would still have them. I am old enough to deal in reality. It wouldn't work. I do not have a gun, but I support the right to own one.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Have you ever bought a gun? Under federal law you are required to have a background check done when buying a gun from a licensed dealer. In addition Florida has a 3 day waiting period after the background check before you can take possession of the firearm. Federal law prohibits people with felony convictions and people convicted of domestic violence from purchasing, owning or possessing a firearm. Many criminals obtain guns through what is called a straw purchaser. A non-felon friend, girlfriend, wife, etc. will legally purchase the gun for the felon. This is a felony itself but prosecutors very seldom prosecute the straw purchaser. Drugs are illegal but you can buy them in the smallest towns. I heard that there were a couple incidents of drugs houses here in TV. Prohibition was a disaster, there was more alcohol consumption during prohibition than before or after. Organized crime provided a product that people were willing to pay big money for. The same for drugs, crime organizations smuggle drugs into countries and make billions in profit. Make guns illegal and again organized crime will step in and provide what ever the crazies and criminals need to accomplish the deed they wish to commit. As I said earlier, we have a violence problem, lets work on that.


What does the possibility of me buying a gun have to do with anything I've said or have to do with your post referring back to what I've said???

There is no correlation between my comment and your diatribe referencing my post, so why did you quote me?

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I don’t know why you felt guilty when I made this statement, it was Midnight Cowgirl who suggested banning some guns may be the answer. To be honest, I didn’t read your post and really didn’t pay attention to your position. Carry on!


Nowhere in my comment did I say that any guns should be banned.

You must have me confused with someone else.

[biker1]

While you can probably buy the semi-automatic sidearm that the army, and other branches, uses, you can't legally buy the fully-automatic rifles that are the staple of the military.

We need more lawyers suing gun manufacturers like with the tobacco companies. Them winning is a harder matter.

There are many guns that should simply be taken off the market and bought back if possible. Guns designed for the use of soldiers and really not so much for anything else.

More education about mental illness and a concentrated effort to get people to deal with it within their own families and in their communities. Same with virtual (online) and real life (person-to-person) bullying.

A lot can be done. Education and empathy for survivors/victim are key.

[BK001]

. . . this would be one of the times where the name of the person would be helpful but I missed it.
.


Patrick Crucius, 21 years old, from Allen Texas. Info is sketchy but one reporter mentioned that the manifesto that they believe to be his, was anti-immigrants.

Edit:

Just found this post with his picture (please ignore any political reference)

K Shawn Gibson | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214352834510438&set=a.1039402421029&type=3&theater)

[Arctic Fox]

Of the 86 countries where we have identified mass public shootings, the US ranks 56th per capita in its rate of attacks and 61st in mass public shooting murder rate. Norway, Finland, Switzerland and Russia all have at least 45 percent higher rates of murder from mass public shootings than the United States.

Norway had one mass shooting - in 2011 - and since then the pro-gun lobby has included just that year in their statistics to drag it above the USA.

Likewise Finland - last mass shooting was in 2008.

Switzerland - 2001.

Face up to the problem, people, don't just try to hide it with distorted statistics.

[Fredster]

And the anti-gun lobby continues to focus on guns as the problem,
when in almost every case, mental or cultural issues have been the driver of these terrible events.
Guns are inanimate objects, they just don’t go off by themselves!

[Bay Kid]

Movies, tv shows, video games all sell because of all the violence. The hero is the last one standing. It seems to be the world culture.

[GrumpyOldMan]

And another shooting in Ohio.

And you can read any forum in this country and you will find identical threads to this one and they haven't haven't changed for years. We can continue to go around this tree, and point fingers at how wrong the other side is, or we can do something about it.

Aslo, at this point I am so cynical that I believe most politicians, on both sides, love it when a shooting happens - they know it will distract everyone from what the politicians are doing, and give them some good talking points for the next election.

[Taltarzac725]

Assault Weapons | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/assault-weapons/)

Ban the sales of these kind of weapons to anyone and try to buy existing ones back.

Police and the military can get them from whatever source.

That is at least something that can be done.

And start challenging the hard line approaches taken by the NRA and their supporters. Common sense measures should be sought after and not bumper sticker platitudes.

[New Englander]

I hate those damn assault rifles. Sure, they are not fully automatic like the military grade ones but all a person has to do is just keep squeezing the trigger. They are designed as human killing machines. Notice that many of these slaughters are done with assault type weapons? Look what happened in Las Vegas. How about the nightclub massacre in Orlando. These murdering bastards choose assault rifles because these assault rifles are great for mass murder. :mad:

[Number 10 GI]

Emotion? EMOTION? Where do you see emotion? Any emotion is yours judging by the plethora of comments you've made in response to everyone.

You will only find some thoughts and opinion in my post and this is the second time you have quoted my same comment.

You sound pretty emotional right now. So I can't correct misinformation in posts like your and others that don't know all the facts about purchasing a firearm?

[Cedwards38]

How do you legislate mental illness? You know it will come out...again, the other common denominator, that the shooter, or it looks like possibly shooters, were and are wackos. I'm not going to say too much anymore on the gun "debate" , it get's nowhere here, and it's never civil.
Steve

You can't, so you do something else to try to keep guns out of the hands of the insane. The throw up your hands and say "what can we do" solution is clearly not working, and the problem is getting worse.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Assault Weapons | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/hardware-ammunition/assault-weapons/)

Ban the sales of these kind of weapons to anyone and try to buy existing ones back.

Police and the military can get them from whatever source.

That is at least something that can be done.

And start challenging the hard line approaches taken by the NRA and their supporters. Common sense measures should be sought after and not bumper sticker platitudes.

Historically, the NRA helped to create sensible gun laws that hadn't previously existed. Now, they are a powerful pro-gun lobby group that wants to eliminate those same laws that they helped to create.

Until they take ownership for their responsibility in the mess was have now, where one state can have strict laws that are bypassed simply by going across state lines, no amount of OTHER changes will make a single bit of difference.

In an emergency situation where someone's leg was shot up and sepsis has begun to climb up the artery, you don't tell the patient to wait while you spend a few days figuring out why he got shot. You address the sepsis immediately and if necessary - remove the leg.

Our country is experiencing sepsis, and you all want to address the cause of the sepsis. That's great. We really SHOULD address the cause of the sepsis. But first, we need to stop the sepsis. That sepsis is semi-automatic weapons, and inconsistent gun laws between the states.

Another analogy: someone driving a car has a heart attack. You don't keep driving while you figure out why he had a heart attack. You pull over and deal with the heart attack. Mass shootings = man driving a car while having a heart attack.

[Aces4]

Yes, it IS

I am not going into gun control, but it would seem that there needs to be some form of it -- a check and balance of some type if you will, or this kind of horror will continue.

And even with some form of control, it would probably be a long time before many of the illegal forms of ownership can be controlled and/or taken off the street.
While I have my own personal thoughts, it's obviously the time is past due

Semantics maybe but “taking guns off the street” to me equals banning. I didn’t say if it was right or wrong, just that the problems are stemming from mental illness.

[anothersteve]

[QUOTE=Jazuela;166996

Until they take ownership for their responsibility in the mess was have now, where one state can have strict laws that are bypassed simply by going across state lines, no amount of OTHER changes will make a single bit of difference.
..[/QUOTE]

Do you even read the links posted?
Steve

[graciegirl]

Background checks are NOT required by federal law for private sales, and Texas has no restrictions requiring them either. ANYONE can get a gun in Texas, legally, without a background check. You're not required to go through a licensed dealer to get a gun. At least, not in Texas, where the El Paso shooting happened.

If you watch Live P.D. you can quickly see that ANYONE can get a gun illegally. AND ANYONE can get illegal drugs. And people do not seem to be learning what is right and wrong anymore. Perhaps because someone who is not their parents are raising them from infancy. You cannot legislate morality. You cannot teach morality to a sick mind. Morality can be taught by a person bonded to a child up to the age of five. After that, it is probably not going to take.

Some people think it is wrong to teach children rules attached to religion.

I don't own a gun. I don't drink or take illegal drugs. I still get angry enough to bite or hit or harm from time to time but there is a shadowy figure in the back of my mind that won't allow it. The figure looks a lot like my mom.

[manaboutown]

Unfortunately shootings are now all too common worldwide, even in gun controlled countries. Sweden: Local Residents Tense After Shootings in Karlstad (https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/04/sweden-local-residents-tense-after-shootings-in-karlstad/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1Ilna7C7OWuyJZhXmb3Y3doMRoFjcHU5RXGZZTd Wm17F7-RWSkQk1YP1o)
Three men killed in gang-related shooting in southern Sweden - Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sweden-shooting-sealed/two-men-killed-in-malmo-shooting-swedish-police-idUSKBN1JE2KH)

This just happened in Chicago so it is not really news, just another day in the Windy City. Reports: 7 People Shot, Injured Near Chicago Playground (https://www.theepochtimes.com/reports-7-people-shot-injured-near-chicago-playground_3029390.html?fbclid=IwAR0QsSDeXBEmcDPJ0 ngHbWy8upMslDpm-XLlLe3vsXWf34ZGL3UGMKx35j8)

[chrisinva]

To all the writers so far - Thanks for this reasonable, rational, 7 pages so far, discussion of this horrible topic. As I read page after page, I was fearing the moderator would need to end the discussion but there was no need for that.

The back & forth comments, your reasonableness, the links for validation, your unique interpretations of law, ability to keep away from politics, and ability to stay on topic have made my Sunday morning reading very worthwhile. Again, thanks for this discussion.

What I learned & believe - laws alone cannot be the solution since the problem extends beyond the laws. The solution is a mix of law and somewhere in the moral/spiritual/mental health matrix.

[GrumpyOldMan]

If you watch Live P.D. you can quickly see that ANYONE can get a gun illegally. AND ANYONE can get illegal drugs. And people do not seem to be learning what is right and wrong anymore. Perhaps because someone who is not their parents are raising them from infancy. You cannot legislate morality. You cannot teach morality to a sick mind. Morality can be taught by a person bonded to a child up to the age of five. After that, it is probably not going to take.

Some people think it is wrong to teach children rules attached to religion.

I don't own a gun. I don't drink or take illegal drugs. I still get angry enough to bite or hit or harm from time to time but there is a shadowy figure in the back of my mind that won't allow it. The figure looks a lot like my mom.

Truth, you can not legislate morality, and both parties need to learn that.

The only thing I would change in your comment is "Some people think it is wrong to teach kids rules". Period.

I don't own a "gun" (I have a air rifle for vermin control), I drink may 1 or 2 small glasses a wine per month, I don't take illegal drugs - I don't feel free room and board for the rest of my life courtesy of the state worth the brief high.

[GrumpyOldMan]

What I learned & believe - laws alone cannot be the solution since the problem extends beyond the laws. The solution is a mix of law and somewhere in the moral/spiritual/mental health matrix.

I believe laws do not solve problems at all, people speed, people run stop signs, people use drugs, people kill people...

I don't know what the solution is, but penalties (laws) do not deter crime the simply punish it.

[Number 10 GI]

I'm not suggesting that we "eliminate" a tool to commit violence. I'm saying provide better checks and balances, and accountability for both the buyer and the seller, and make it a NATIONAL regulation, not a state-wide regulation. There is nothing preventing someone from going to any state that allows them to legally buy a gun, and legally buying one. And then, once that person has possession of that gun, bringing it back to their state, where state regulations prohibit them from buying it (because licensing, conceal carry, mental illness checks not done, no testing, whatever. WHATEVER REASON.)

If it is illegal for them to get it in the next state also, then it will be more difficult for them to get a gun. They'll still be able to get one. But it'll be harder to do. AND - just the fact that they got one at all, in ANY state, would mean they violated the law.

In some states, the regulations and restrictions are stricter than in other states. There is no consistency. That is WHY Chicago has the problems it has. Chicago is an example of a city that will always have problems. But it is AS BAD as it is, because of the ease of LEGALLY acquiring a firearm across state lines.

The regulations - whatever they are, however strict or loose, need to be nationwide.

And again - "other tools" don't exist for the express purpose of killing. The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is its #1 primary function. It has limited use in anything else other than target practice, which is what you do when you're trying to be good at killing.

Have you heard of the Gun Control Act of 1968. This federal law established a NATIONWIDE set of regulations that regulate the sale, possession, and transportation of firearms for all states and territories.
What do you mean about accountability for buyer and seller? If a gun dealer sells a firearm to a prohibited individual he has broken the law. If a prohibited person obtains a firearm he has committed a felony. News flash, criminals don't obey the law.
States can and do have laws in addition to what the federal government has laid down. As I pointed out in another post Florida has a 3 day waiting period before you can take possession of a firearm after successfully completing a background check.
Do you read my posts? I stated earlier that a person cannot go into another state and purchase a handgun and walk out the door with it. The gun must be transferred to a licensed gun dealer in the purchasers home state where the individual must pass a background check before taking possession of the gun. If the gun is prohibited in the purchasers home state or if the individual cannot legally own the firearm, he/she will not get it from the gun dealer. A private individual cannot sell an out of state resident a handgun. It must be transferred to a licensed dealer in the purchasers home state just as a gun dealer must do. Long guns are treated a bit differently and can be purchased out of state but if the home state of the purchaser prohibits that firearm the out of state dealer cannot sell the rifle to him. Even if an out of state purchaser is able to obtain a rifle that is banned in his home state he is still violating the law for possessing it.
Were cars designed for drunk drivers to operate? How about axes, they were a weapon of war but are also used to cut down trees. Knives were and still are weapons of war in addition to being used in the kitchen. Clubs were definitely used first as weapons but we don't regulate baseball bats do we. The fact that guns were originally designed as weapons mean nothing. My point which you don't seem to accept is that nearly any item can be used as a weapon to injure or kill another person. In the absence of a firearm a determined individual will find another tool to use to commit the crime. Yes there would be fewer gun homicides but there would be more by other means.
I take great offense to your statement and take it as insult that if a person uses a gun in target practice it is only to enable them to be more effective in killing. You don't know me. I have never killed anyone in my life, I've never threatened anyone with a gun either. I have no desire or daydreams of killing someone. I am just as sickened by the senseless killings going on in this country as anyone else. There are millions of gun owners in this country who think just like me about the violence.

[anothersteve]

Have you heard of the Gun Control Act of 1968. This federal law established a NATIONWIDE set of regulations that regulate the sale, possession, and transportation of firearms for all states and territories.
What do you mean about accountability for buyer and seller? If a gun dealer sells a firearm to a prohibited individual he has broken the law. If a prohibited person obtains a firearm he has committed a felony. News flash, criminals don't obey the law.
States can and do have laws in addition to what the federal government has laid down. As I pointed out in another post Florida has a 3 day waiting period before you can take possession of a firearm after successfully completing a background check.
Do you read my posts? I stated earlier that a person cannot go into another state and purchase a handgun and walk out the door with it. The gun must be transferred to a licensed gun dealer in the purchasers home state where the individual must pass a background check before taking possession of the gun. If the gun is prohibited in the purchasers home state or if the individual cannot legally own the firearm, he/she will not get it from the gun dealer. A private individual cannot sell an out of state resident a handgun. It must be transferred to a licensed dealer in the purchasers home state just as a gun dealer must do. Long guns are treated a bit differently and can be purchased out of state but if the home state of the purchaser prohibits that firearm the out of state dealer cannot sell the rifle to him. Even if an out of state purchaser is able to obtain a rifle that is banned in his home state he is still violating the law for possessing it.
Were cars designed for drunk drivers to operate? How about axes, they were a weapon of war but are also used to cut down trees. Knives were and still are weapons of war in addition to being used in the kitchen. Clubs were definitely used first as weapons but we don't regulate baseball bats do we. The fact that guns were originally designed as weapons mean nothing. My point which you don't seem to accept is that nearly any item can be used as a weapon to injure or kill another person. In the absence of a firearm a determined individual will find another tool to use to commit the crime. Yes there would be fewer gun homicides but there would be more by other means.
I take great offense to your statement and take it as insult that if a person uses a gun in target practice it is only to enable them to be more effective in killing. You don't know me. I have never killed anyone in my life, I've never threatened anyone with a gun either. I have no desire or daydreams of killing someone. I am just as sickened by the senseless killings going on in this country as anyone else. There are millions of gun owners in this country who think just like me about the violence.

Well said. Thank you. There have been many links posted that obviously have not been read.
Steve

[billethkid]

Much has been said about the ease of buying/getting a gun.

That is not the reason for gun violence here in the USA.

What always seems to be glossed over is that we have allowed our culture to condone/accept violence. As was stated in an earlier post the movies, video games, television and much entertainment is violence based or violence driven.

Once upon a time there were ratings that some of us used to manage what our kids watched on tv or at the movies. In our house if it was R rated....no if and or buts the kids did not get to see it. Nor was anybody else allowed to watch it while under age children in the room.

Today kids grow up with a game boy or game video or television as their baby sitter. These kids get a steady diet of violence in all shapes and forms....day after day and year after year. The emotional response to murder, maiming and mayhem has become non existent.

Add to that our increasing tolerance for wrong doing and selective law enforcement all provide a breeding culture for violence and wrong doing.

The statistics are higher for mortality on using cell phones while driving. Yet there is no clamoring of the masses to ELIMINATE or control the problem. Why do we hear about MADD but nothing about mothers against cell phones? Why? Because the majority have them and they will not allow or create and disturbance to their addiction. Hence the death by auto-cell phone continues.

Non gun deaths i.e. cell phones....note the silence.
Gun deaths? Note the lack of addressing the real issue.

How many gun owners and or guns owned in the USA used every single day without incident. Millions upon millions. What gets the press and political agenda attention? Not the 99.8% responsible gun ownership and use!!!!!!!

Re-iterating my position once again.

It ain't the gun!!!!

[Kenswing]

One thing that really hasn't been mentioned is Social Media. There has been a definite increase in mass shootings since the advent of Social Media.

The news media presents almost nothing but divisive issues anymore. "If it bleeds it leads".. Amazing how this country is split almost down the middle on social issues.

Then add in forums like this. Well maybe not exactly like this since this forum is multifaceted with the discussion of many issues. But look at forums that are dedicated to certain topics. Those forums present one side of an issue. You get some impressionable kid and egg him on, instill hate and violence and you have a recipe for disaster. Look how many kids spend their days online. For some it is their only social interaction.

This problem is way bigger than firearms. Bullying, mental health, media input, self biases.. You name it, they can all contribute. But until we find the root cause this will continue to happen.

[skip0358]

Yes agree very well said. It’s not the gun but the nut job behind it. Your 100% correct on your gun laws also. People say the Military style weapons are the problem I could buy a 50 or 100 round drum for a pistol and fire just as many or more rounds then the military style weapons, plant a bomb in my car a mailbox a storm drain etc. I don’t and will not but that’s what could happen. It’s the nut job that does the killing not the device he or she uses. You can’t outlaw any everything that could be used as a weapon impossible. Sorry this happened yet again prayers to family and friends of those involved. Those who carry legally hope to never need it but if they do let’s hope it stops the attacker.

[GrumpyOldMan]

One thing that really hasn't been mentioned is Social Media. There has been a definite increase in mass shootings since the advent of Social Media.


True, this is also associated with the growth of access/use of the internet, not just social media.


The news media presents almost nothing but divisive issues anymore. "If it bleeds it leads".. Amazing how this country is split almost down the middle on social issues.


"Back in the day" News on radio and TV were not profit centers. One day the bean counters figured out they could monetize news and the downward spiral began and it was "news" only if it could be spun to make a buck.


Then add in forums like this. Well maybe not exactly like this since this forum is multifaceted with the discussion of many issues. But look at forums that are dedicated to certain topics. Those forums present one side of an issue. You get some impressionable kid and egg him on, instill hate and violence and you have a recipe for disaster. Look how many kids spend their days online. For some it is their only social interaction.

Kids in general are peer group driven. The bully phenomena pre-dates the internet, and was/is somewhat driven by the praise they get from "peers" for a good "burn". On the internet anyone can be a bully and get away with it since they are anonymous. And the "rewards" are even greater (likes, shares and subscribers).

This problem is way bigger than firearms. Bullying, mental health, media input, self biases.. You name it, they can all contribute. But until we find the root cause this will continue to happen.

Completely agree with you - 100%.

Most suggestions are treating the symptoms and not the problem. Not to say that while we are looking for the cause we should do nothing, but the problem(s) will not go away until we treat the root cause.

I personally think we are in a civilization wide transition period of information overload.

We, as humans are having a hard time adapting to (dealing with) all the changes. The internet is a big one - it is resulting in a zero cost (profitable?) ability to spread hate and anger, it is resulting in too much information, information overload making it hard to know who or what to believe.

There is a theory among people searching for extraterrestrial life (aliens) that while there are many inhabited planets out there most civilizations kill themselves off once they reach the level of technological advancement where they can.

We are at that level now, and it does feel sometimes like we are not going to get through this phase of the "industrial" revolution.

[Taltarzac725]

Historically, the NRA helped to create sensible gun laws that hadn't previously existed. Now, they are a powerful pro-gun lobby group that wants to eliminate those same laws that they helped to create.

Until they take ownership for their responsibility in the mess was have now, where one state can have strict laws that are bypassed simply by going across state lines, no amount of OTHER changes will make a single bit of difference.

In an emergency situation where someone's leg was shot up and sepsis has begun to climb up the artery, you don't tell the patient to wait while you spend a few days figuring out why he got shot. You address the sepsis immediately and if necessary - remove the leg.

Our country is experiencing sepsis, and you all want to address the cause of the sepsis. That's great. We really SHOULD address the cause of the sepsis. But first, we need to stop the sepsis. That sepsis is semi-automatic weapons, and inconsistent gun laws between the states.

Another analogy: someone driving a car has a heart attack. You don't keep driving while you figure out why he had a heart attack. You pull over and deal with the heart attack. Mass shootings = man driving a car while having a heart attack.

I certainly hear you or read you loud and clear.

[graciegirl]

Another mass shooting at a mall in El Paso. Multiple fatalities reported and injured. When is something going to be done?

What can be done? How can it be done? Asylums? Who will ascertain who is the potentially dangerous criminally insane? A very difficult situation.

Remove guns and weapons from all homes? Do not sell new ones? That means that people with a moral compass will give up their weapons and not buy new ones.

Pass a law about AK47s? Most people would agree with that, but hard liners of the second amendment would not.

We have tried to work hard and save and buy homes in safe parts of the world. Never felt the need to be armed, but that is changing for the older people who do not hit hard, run fast and even get out of chairs quickly.

This is very complex. This is far more than political. Thou shalt not kill, unless someone is trying to badly harm you or your family. My mother said that and I believe it. My mother would not recognize THIS world.

[billethkid]

Better be careful....discussing each other instead of the thread topic will get the thread closed!!

[Bogie Shooter]

Yes, a nut job.
But who is giving these white nationalist/supremacist the racist fodder?

Police say a document they believe was written by the 21-year-old white male suspect has a "nexus to a potential hate crime."
The four-page document posted online espouses white nationalist and racist views. It rails against immigrants and Hispanics, blaming immigrants and first-generation Americans for taking away jobs and for the blending of cultures in the US.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

What can be done? How can it be done? Asylums? Who will ascertain who is the potentially dangerous criminally insane? A very difficult situation.

Remove guns and weapons from all homes? Do not sell new ones? That means that people with a moral compass will give up their weapons and not buy new ones.

Pass a law about AK47s? Most people would agree with that, but hard liners of the second amendment would not.

We have tried to work hard and save and buy homes in safe parts of the world. Never felt the need to be armed, but that is changing for the older people who do not hit hard, run fast and even get out of chairs quickly.

This is very complex. This is far more than political.


What can be done and how to do it? As long as no one becomes proactive with sound doable ideas, there will never be any change.
An asylum? Ridiculous! No one has ever brought that up as a deterrent. Besides, an asylum would be "after-the-fact" and solves nothing.

Remove guns from homes and not sell new ones? That's absurd and that will NEVER happen. As with many things, laws have been adjusted to keep up with changes. The same should apply to this amendment. When the Second Amendment was written, there was no such thing as an AK anything. These weapons were not designed for ownership by the public-at-large. The military? Yes! Law enforcement? Yes! And probably some other venues that aren't coming to mind right now.

Work hard to buy a home in a safe place? That's laughable because there is no such thing. A mass murderer is not targeting older people. No one is immune from being killed when such a person is on the warpath.

So what is the beginning? Universal laws, not just state-by-state. Stringent background checks to include things as innocuous-sounding as Facebook, Twitter, etc. Put a tax on weapons to cover the cost of more intricate methods of checking someone out. Interview neighbors of the applicant. Have a longer waiting period to gain ownership. Have the government buy back automatic weapons.

I'm not saying that these things should be done or would work. But it could be a possible beginning. A change will take a long time -- a very long time to begin working. But we are at the point in this country where we need to start with some changes somewhere.

Yes, the situation is far more than political. Unfortunately, nothing has changed because it is political. Four mass murders in different parts of the country all within one week's time? We need to stop talking about it and do something. Otherwise, nothing will change.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Semantics maybe but “taking guns off the street” to me equals banning. I didn’t say if it was right or wrong, just that the problems are stemming from mental illness.


Mental illness may be a part of all these mass murders, but I believe it's only a small part of it.

What I do believe is the underlying cause is based on prejudice, ignorance and pure, unadulterated hate. These things are not a mental illness. They are probably an environmental and learned behavior.

And since a cure for that is pretty remote, I believe we have to rely on changes in some laws.

[New Englander]

I could be wrong but I think the majority of these mass murderers are not insane. They are full of hate and anger.

[Velvet]

Where does this hate and anger come from? This beautiful, abundant country, in the Old Testament it’d be probably referred to as another land of milk and honey.

I am trying to understand. I see the beauty where is the ugliness? To me it seems artificial and invented.

[Barefoot]

The bad guys just steal guns. If every law was passed so no gun would ever again be sold, and guns were taken from people, the bad guys would still have them.
:agree: I don't agree that gun control is the solution.

[graciegirl]

I could be wrong but I think the majority of these mass murderers are not insane. They are full of hate and anger.

Hate and anger. Close to the truth.

I was just told my views, two posts up were in exact words;

Ridiculous

Absurd

Laughable

Solves nothing.

Those are very harsh words to say the least and are only one person's opinion. However if someone had suffered a personal loss, a death, or had been very ill, or just been through any kind of stressful period in their lives, those harsh and critical words might be enough to cause them to be very hurt and angry or terribly depressed. I believe those very words could have been changed to less demeaning ones...easily.

Or one could simply have remained silent. All of this are just opinions and we all think we are right.

Some, even if they are right, know how to make people angry and feel bad.

[Velvet]

I guess I am thinking, when one of us gets hurt, we are all hurting. Just look at us in TOTV how concerned we are about these shootings.

[graciegirl]

Yes, a nut job.
But who is giving these white nationalist/supremacist the racist fodder?

Police say a document they believe was written by the 21-year-old white male suspect has a "nexus to a potential hate crime."
The four-page document posted online espouses white nationalist and racist views. It rails against immigrants and Hispanics, blaming immigrants and first-generation Americans for taking away jobs and for the blending of cultures in the US.


Here is a copy of the alleged Manifesto. I think he is very wrong, but I don't see any evidence that either party gave this obviously disoriented and mentally ill person the impetus to think this way.

El Paso Walmart Shooter Patrick Crusius Full Manifesto | TheCount.com (https://thecount.com/2019/08/03/patrick-crusius-manifesto-full-transcript/?fbclid=IwAR0Z0jKy1wX_ixok3467AlXezdzKcH4xMXU_4Aco 5Wb75SmNAK3BihTagbI)

When we are confused and saddened some of us want to blame someone or something. It may be many someones or somethings. There is nothing wrong with being white, we had no choice in the matter and most of us love our country above all others. Dismissive name calling is not helpful in this or most situations. He is probably screwed up for a lot of reasons. His mother died when he was seventeen. Some people cannot handle overwhelming grief if they have a weakened mental state. But,I am angry with him. I believe most humans know it is wrong to kill other humans unless they are attacking us or our family.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Here is a copy of the alleged Manifesto. I think he is very wrong, but I don't see any evidence that either party gave this obviously disoriented and mentally ill person the impetus to think this way.

El Paso Walmart Shooter Patrick Crusius Full Manifesto | TheCount.com (https://thecount.com/2019/08/03/patrick-crusius-manifesto-full-transcript/?fbclid=IwAR0Z0jKy1wX_ixok3467AlXezdzKcH4xMXU_4Aco 5Wb75SmNAK3BihTagbI)

When we are confused and saddened some of us want to blame someone or something. It may be many someones or somethings. There is nothing wrong with being white, we had no choice in the matter and most of us love our country above all others. Dismissive name calling is not helpful in this or most situations. He is probably screwed up for a lot of reasons. His mother died when he was seventeen. Some people cannot handle overwhelming grief if they have a weakened mental state. But,I am angry with him. I believe most humans know it is wrong to kill other humans unless they are attacking us or our family.

You are a wise person, and considering I am a liberal I find it very distressing that I can't find anything to disagree with you on! :bigbow:

[New Englander]

Where does this hate and anger come from? This beautiful, abundant country, in the Old Testament it’d be probably referred to as another land of milk and honey.

I am trying to understand. I see the beauty where is the ugliness? To me it seems artificial and invented.

I don't know.

[anothersteve]

There's going to be a lot more coming out about both of these tragedies. Everyone really needs to refrain from rash judgments about the "who", what and why until then.Take a breath..jeez...the bodies are barely cold for Christ's sake!
The one thing that we all know is they were both wackos...period!
Steve

[Marathon Man]

I have never owned a gun. I don't plan on owning one in the future. I'm not against gun ownership, but I think that there needs to be some kind of change made (way beyond me to know exactly what change).

One thing I can see reading through all the posts - There is a lot of disagreement and misunderstanding of exactly what the law is concerning gun purchase and carry.

[Number 10 GI]

As with many things, laws have been adjusted to keep up with changes. The same should apply to this amendment. When the Second Amendment was written, there was no such thing as an AK anything.
When the 1st Amendment was written there was no such thing as internet, television, telephone, radio, or Facebook and Twitter. Are you willing to change the 1st Amendment to restrict the hate found in the various media today? Be careful, the definition of Hate can be quite broad. Disagreeing with the government could be construed as improper speech.
These weapons were not designed for ownership by the public-at-large. The military? Yes! Law enforcement? Yes! And probably some other venues that aren't coming to mind right now.
The AK 47 style rifles and the AR 15 rifles being sold are not fully automatic, they are semi-automatic versions meaning you have to pull the trigger each time to fire a round. The issue M16/M4 rifles used in the military today are full automatic, meaning that it will keep on firing as long as hold the trigger back. The military does not use semi-automatic weapons in general issue. There may be some used by special operations units in a specialized role, possibly as a sniper weapon.
So what is the beginning? Universal laws, not just state-by-state.
As I have written many times before this, have you read those posts, that the Gun Control Act of 1968 established federal laws on how guns are sold, purchased and transported that all states must comply with. States cannot pass laws that lessen the federal law, they can only add to the law. Many states have added further restrictions but none are going willy nilly ignoring federal law.
Stringent background checks to include things as innocuous-sounding as Facebook, Twitter, etc. Put a tax on weapons to cover the cost of more intricate methods of checking someone out. Interview neighbors of the applicant. Have a longer waiting period to gain ownership. Have the government buy back automatic weapons.
How about a tax on Facebook, Twitter, etc for allowing hate speech and bullying to be posted. Maybe we should have more stringent checks on people before we let them obtain a drivers license to insure they are stable and smart enough to operate a motor vehicle or purchase a kitchen knife. A lot of spouses have been killed or injured with a butcher knife. The only fully automatic weapons owned by civilian are severely regulated by the federal government. I can't remember when the last time I heard of a fully automatic weapon being used in a crime but it was a police officer who committed the crime. As far a waiting periods, many stated mandate a waiting period and Florida is one of them. Most of these mass shooting perpetrators obtained their guns months prior to the shooting so a waiting period does nothing.

I'm not saying that these things should be done or would work. But it could be a possible beginning. A change will take a long time -- a very long time to begin working. But we are at the point in this country where we need to start with some changes somewhere.
If you don't think it would work why waste the time to pass such laws? We need to take an honest look at what is causing the hate and work on solutions for that problem.

Yes, the situation is far more than political. Unfortunately, nothing has changed because it is political. Four mass murders in different parts of the country all within one week's time? We need to stop talking about it and do something. Otherwise, nothing will change.
The reason nothing has changed, even though states and cities pass more and more restrictive gun laws, is that the laws aren't being obeyed by the criminal. The only reason for laws is it provides the government a legal basis for charging, prosecuting and to sentence the violator to prison. Laws don't stop criminal behavior.

[ahayward65]

I guess a start would be to pass some laws concerning the sale of guns!

[New Englander]

Hate and anger. Close to the truth.

I was just told my views, two posts up were in exact words;

Ridiculous

Absurd

Laughable

Solves nothing.

Those are very harsh words to say the least and are only one person's opinion. However if someone had suffered a personal loss, a death, or had been very ill, or just been through any kind of stressful period in their lives, those harsh and critical words might be enough to cause them to be very hurt and angry or terribly depressed. I believe those very words could have been changed to less demeaning ones...easily.

Or one could simply have remained silent. All of this are just opinions and we all think we are right.

Some, even if they are right, know how to make people angry and feel bad.

Those are harsh words.

[GrumpyOldMan]

In 2011 we decided to spend $3 Trillion because 1300 people were killed in NY. How many more people have to die before we demand that $3 trillion dollars be allocated to stopping mass murders in the US?

[ahayward65]

It's already illegal to murder someone and also illegal to willfully injure a person, so what additional legislation will stop this type of crime?

Wake up! Have you heard about the assault weapons available to
buy by any Tom, Dick or Harry ! Pass some laws that ban the sale of these types of weapons, that would be a start. Alas too many of our members of Congress are indebted to the NRA.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The reason nothing has changed, even though states and cities pass more and more restrictive gun laws, is that the laws aren't being obeyed by the criminal. The only reason for laws is it provides the government a legal basis for charging, prosecuting and to sentence the violator to prison. Laws don't stop criminal behavior.

Well let's just get rid of those roundabouts, stop signs, traffic lights. Screw burglary laws. Ditch all drug laws. Open season on your neighbor if he mows his lawn too early for your taste. I mean hey - if he was going to shoot you, he wouldn't let a silly thing like a law stop him anyway, so why bother having a law saying he isn't allowed, right?

[Aces4]

The reason nothing has changed, even though states and cities pass more and more restrictive gun laws, is that the laws aren't being obeyed by the criminal. The only reason for laws is it provides the government a legal basis for charging, prosecuting and to sentence the violator to prison. Laws don't stop criminal behavior.

The color of your post makes it almost illegible to read in the original post. You may want to change that.

[Number 10 GI]

I guess a start would be to pass some laws concerning the sale of guns!

There are already federal laws concerning the sale, possession and transportation of guns. Convicted felons cannot buy, own or possess a firearm, period. People adjudicated as being too mentally ill to possess firearms are prohibited also as is the felon. You must undergo and pass a background check before you can purchase one. What further restrictions do you think will correct the problem?

[anothersteve]

Nobody reads links or does their own research on the gun laws that are already on the books. They just believe what they are being fed. It's a hopeless "discussion".
Steve

[Number 10 GI]

Well let's just get rid of those roundabouts, stop signs, traffic lights. Screw burglary laws. Ditch all drug laws. Open season on your neighbor if he mows his lawn too early for your taste. I mean hey - if he was going to shoot you, he wouldn't let a silly thing like a law stop him anyway, so why bother having a law saying he isn't allowed, right?

Re-read the portion of my post you quoted. No where did I imply or infer that there should be no laws. Laws don't on their own stop criminal activity. Laws exist as a means for the government to charge, prosecute and imprison the individual that breaks the law. I keep hearing the cry for more laws, what law will prevent these incidents that isn't already on the books?

[Kenswing]

Wake up! Have you heard about the assault weapons available to
buy by any Tom, Dick or Harry ! Pass some laws that ban the sale of these types of weapons, that would be a start. Alas too many of our members of Congress are indebted to the NRA.

Tell me the difference between these two rifles.. Which one is an "Assault Weapon"? One is a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, the other an AR-15.

[Number 10 GI]

How many people remember the Boston marathon bombing back in 2013? Two nut cases filled home kitchen pressure cookers with black powder taken from fireworks and made a couple bombs that killed, injured and maimed a number of people.

In 1995 Timothy McVeigh used a truck loaded with a fertilizer/diesel fuel mixture bomb that killed 168 people, which included children, and injured over 680 others.

In June 2001 in Japan, a school janitor/maintenance man entered a school and used a knife to kill 8 children and seriously wound 13 more including 2 teachers.

There have been so many bombing incidents in the middle east with hundreds killed and many more injured/maimed and not a gun was used.

In May this year a man in Tokyo, Japan killed one school girl and an adult and injured at least 17 others at a bus stop using a knife.

In 2018 in the UK they experienced the highest number of knife assaults since they began keeping records. In 2018 in England and Wales there were 732 homicides. Children as young as 9 are carrying knives out of fear of being attacked. Don't ask for links as I'm not computer savvy enough to get them to work, google is your friend.

What is the point of this information? Some of these places have such strict gun control laws that it is nearly impossible to own one, except for the middle east. In the absence of guns other, means are used and return just as horrific a body count as the mass shootings in the news. How many times do I have to say WE HAVE A VIOLENCE PROBLEM in this country and in many others. Passing more laws that will be ignored by the criminal to prohibit one homicide tool will just increase the death count by another tool. Strict gun laws in other countries isn't stopping the violence. Why is there no effort to discover why there is so much violent behavior and attitude? It's easier to pass a law that won't work and let so many have their emotional "gotta do something now" fix and go on with their lives thinking it will get better. Too many people don't want an honest discussion on violence as it might cause them to have to re-think some of their beliefs.

[ahayward65]

Tell me the difference between these two rifles.. Which one is an "Assault Weapon"? One is a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, the other an AR-15.

What is the difference? You are using a comparison that is not realistic. Like so many gun owners and protectionists of the 2nd amendent , you carry it to the extreme. Reasonable people do NOT want to take all guns away. Just put restrictions on the way guns are sold and the types of guns that can be purchased. Background checks, waiting periods, types of guns sold is not a ban on all weapons. You have been tricked, scared and intimidated by the false rhetoric surrounding this issue.

[billethkid]

How many people remember the Boston marathon bombing back in 2013? Two nut cases filled home kitchen pressure cookers with black powder taken from fireworks and made a couple bombs that killed, injured and maimed a number of people.

In 1995 Timothy McVeigh used a truck loaded with a fertilizer/diesel fuel mixture bomb that killed 168 people, which included children, and injured over 680 others.

In June 2001 in Japan, a school janitor/maintenance man entered a school and used a knife to kill 8 children and seriously wound 13 more including 2 teachers.

There have been so many bombing incidents in the middle east with hundreds killed and many more injured/maimed and not a gun was used.

In May this year a man in Tokyo, Japan killed one school girl and an adult and injured at least 17 others at a bus stop using a knife.

In 2018 in the UK they experienced the highest number of knife assaults since they began keeping records. In 2018 in England and Wales there were 732 homicides. Children as young as 9 are carrying knives out of fear of being attacked. Don't ask for links as I'm not computer savvy enough to get them to work, google is your friend.

What is the point of this information? Some of these places have such strict gun control laws that it is nearly impossible to own one, except for the middle east. In the absence of guns other, means are used and return just as horrific a body count as the mass shootings in the news. How many times do I have to say WE HAVE A VIOLENCE PROBLEM in this country and in many others. Passing more laws that will be ignored by the criminal to prohibit one homicide tool will just increase the death count by another tool. Strict gun laws in other countries isn't stopping the violence. Why is there no effort to discover why there is so much violent behavior and attitude? It's easier to pass a law that won't work and let so many have their emotional "gotta do something now" fix and go on with their lives thinking it will get better. Too many people don't want an honest discussion on violence as it might cause them to have to re-think some of their beliefs.

The question not many are interested in as it does not have an agenda fixed to it....

[GrumpyOldMan]

The question not many are interested in as it does not have an agenda fixed to it....

Exactly.

[Aces4]

What is the difference? You are using a comparison that is not realistic. Like so many gun owners and protectionists of the 2nd amendent , you carry it to the extreme. Reasonable people do NOT want to take all guns away. Just put restrictions on the way guns are sold and the types of guns that can be purchased. Background checks, waiting periods, types of guns sold is not a ban on all weapons. You have been tricked, scared and intimidated by the false rhetoric surrounding this issue.

I believe you’re working on the wrong problem. It’s like locks on doors, they only keep the honest people honest.

If you ban those guns, only the mentally unstable will have them. I’m sure you’re cognizant of how successful the war on drugs hasn’t been and prohibition was never accomplished.

There will always be that element willing to pedal illegal weapons and I don’t want to see the good guys unarmed. For the record, I do not own a weapon.

Mental instability is at the root of these mass murders but our government has failed to address that issue. And everyone wants what seems to be the easiest answer but it’s no answer, IMHO.

[Taltarzac725]

What is the difference? You are using a comparison that is not realistic. Like so many gun owners and protectionists of the 2nd amendent , you carry it to the extreme. Reasonable people do NOT want to take all guns away. Just put restrictions on the way guns are sold and the types of guns that can be purchased. Background checks, waiting periods, types of guns sold is not a ban on all weapons. You have been tricked, scared and intimidated by the false rhetoric surrounding this issue.

Nicely put. Do something to stop these mass shootings. Whatever works that is within the confines of the US Constitution as seen by reasonable people. Fanatics are usually not at all reasonable.

These shootings hit home for me as my Villages' neighbor's grand daughter lost her life at the Parkland shooting. She was 14. They moved to be closer to their surviving grandkids and their cousins. But were very good neighbors from about 2006 to 2018.

So this can happen in the Villages so to speak.

And mental illness is a very difficult subject as the science of psychiatry is still in its infancy and is not very sophisticated.

[Kenswing]

What is the difference? You are using a comparison that is not realistic. Like so many gun owners and protectionists of the 2nd amendent , you carry it to the extreme. Reasonable people do NOT want to take all guns away. Just put restrictions on the way guns are sold and the types of guns that can be purchased. Background checks, waiting periods, types of guns sold is not a ban on all weapons. You have been tricked, scared and intimidated by the false rhetoric surrounding this issue.That is why people that know nothing about guns shouldn't give opinions about gun types. Those two rifles I pictured are functionally almost identical. They are both magazine fed semi automatic rifles chambered in .223. Each pull of the trigger sends a round down range. The term "Assault Weapon" is the most overused/abused buzz word out there.

Because one looks like a Military M4 people think it's more deadly than a ranch rifle.

And even if you do get rid of "Assault Rifles" what about pistols? You can get 30 round magazines for most semi automatic pistols. So now we get rid of "Assault Rifles" and pistols?

[GrumpyOldMan]

If you ban those guns, only the mentally unstable will have them.

Well, I guess if only one potential shooter was unable to acquire the weapon and so that one did not kill 26 people that would be worth something to those 26 people's family, children and friends.

And to look at it another way, how many AK47s or AR15s in the hands of good gun owners have been used to prevent or end actual mass shootings? Since your reference of only mentally unstable (or criminals) would have access to them would imply that others having access in some way would or does help prevent these mass shootings.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There are already federal laws concerning the sale, possession and transportation of guns. Convicted felons cannot buy, own or possess a firearm, period. People adjudicated as being too mentally ill to possess firearms are prohibited also as is the felon. You must undergo and pass a background check before you can purchase one. What further restrictions do you think will correct the problem?

That is not entirely true. You only have to undergo and pass a background check to buy from a licensed dealer. You do NOT have to undergo a background check for a private sale transaction. Gun show buyers do NOT have to undergo background checks, except in states where the STATE has required it.

[Aces4]

Well, I guess if only one potential shooter was unable to acquire the weapon and so that one did not kill 26 people that would be worth something to those 26 people's family, children and friends.

And to look at it another way, how many AK47s or AR15s in the hands of good gun owners have been used to prevent or end actual mass shootings? Since your reference of only mentally unstable (or criminals) would have access to them would imply that others having access in some way would or does help prevent these mass shootings.

Think about the carnage if the mentally ill or criminals knew the bulk of the population was unarmed with weapons like theirs. You think that scenerio would make no difference? I couldn’t disagree more.

[Taltarzac725]

Think about the carnage if the mentally ill or criminals knew the bulk of the population was unarmed with weapons like theirs. You think that scenerio would make no difference? I couldn’t disagree more.

Not going to happen.

These shooters are rarely mentally ill. They are domestic terrorists who know full well what they are doing.

And they go to places that they can expect have security with weapons that can stop them as soon as they are seen by security.

The point is how much damage can be done by guns designed for the military even if arms manufacturers have altered them for profit and sold them to the public. You reduce the number of guns being sold you at least get these weapons out of some hands. It is not a cure all. But it is something.

Taming the out-of- control gun culture is critical.

[Velvet]

Not sure if gun control would make much difference, a child can make a Molotov cocktail.

[Aces4]

Not going to happen.

These shooters are rarely mentally ill. They are domestic terrorists who know full well what they are doing.

And they go to places that they can expect have security with weapons that can stop them as soon as they are seen by security.

The point is how much damage can be done by guns designed for the military even if arms manufacturers have altered them for profit and sold them to the public. You reduce the number of guns being sold you at least get these weapons out of some hands. It is not a cure all. But it is something.

Taming the out-of- control gun culture is critical.

I totally disagree. Mental illness is a wide spectrum and a normal person does not dream of executing large groups of people. Did you read this executioner’s manifesto? Deviousness is part of the illness. I don’t want the upper edge with the wrong group of people.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Think about the carnage if the mentally ill or criminals knew the bulk of the population was unarmed with weapons like theirs. You think that scenerio would make no difference? I couldn’t disagree more.

Well, we can easily prove if gun control has or has not worked, we can not prove what "might happen".

[Aces4]

Well, we can easily prove if gun control has or has not worked, we can not prove what "might happen".

Once the government unarms it’s citizens there is no going back.

[Number 10 GI]

That is not entirely true. You only have to undergo and pass a background check to buy from a licensed dealer. You do NOT have to undergo a background check for a private sale transaction. Gun show buyers do NOT have to undergo background checks, except in states where the STATE has required it.

Congratulations, you have done some research. Yes, I can sell one of my guns to a private individual without a background check. But it is against the law for a prohibited person to buy that gun from me so there is a law that make its illegal. You said that there needs to be laws that prevent the wrong people from obtaining a gun and there already is one on the books. You did state that laws prevent crime.
Now as to gun show sales. The majority of sellers at gun shows are licensed firearms dealers and must conduct a background check on all buyers. Yes there are a few private sellers at gun shows that sell a gun or two. A lot of gun shows have an individual there that will do background checks for private sellers and there are some shows that require it. Do some more research on where criminals obtain guns. Very few get them at gun shows or from private sellers. The majority get them from straw purchasers. A straw purchaser is a person who is not prohibited from buying and possessing a firearm that buys a gun in their name for a person prohibited from possessing a gun. It is illegal to do a straw purchase, another law that is on the books to control guns. Prosecutors rarely prosecute a straw purchaser. No prosecution, no deterrent to commit the crime. To a lesser degree criminals obtain stolen guns. In Tennessee a few years back there was a rash of gun store burglaries in Nashville and surrounding communities resulting quite a number of stolen guns. Burglary is illegal.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Once the government unarms it’s citizens there is no going back.

That is very true, and can be proven by looking at history where it has happened. So we agree with that statement.

Now, could you point out how it is relevant on this thread? Has anyone proposed disarming "it's citizens"?

I understand the fear of a slippery slope, and agree it can not be allowed. But that is a far cry from the other slippery slope of not allowing any controls or restrictions. Would you agree that Nuclear weapons should not be permitted to be owned by citizens? Why not? After all Nuclear Weapons don't kill people, people kill people.

[Number 10 GI]

Not sure if gun control would make much difference, a child can make a Molotov cocktail.

Many years ago my father related a story to me about a guy that got into a fight in a bar and came out on the losing end. He walked down the street, purchased a gas can and filled it at a gas station. He took the gas can and made a Molotov cocktail out of it and rolled through the door into the bar. Luckily he didn't kill anyone but several were burned and it destroyed the bar.

[Kenswing]

Not going to happen.

These shooters are rarely mentally ill. They are domestic terrorists who know full well what they are doing.

And they go to places that they can expect have security with weapons that can stop them as soon as they are seen by security.

The point is how much damage can be done by guns designed for the military even if arms manufacturers have altered them for profit and sold them to the public. You reduce the number of guns being sold you at least get these weapons out of some hands. It is not a cure all. But it is something.

Taming the out-of- control gun culture is critical.
Taming the out of control violent culture is critical. Guns have been a part of this country since even before its inception. The AR-15 came out in the 60's. So you can't blame the problem on that.

Mass shootings are a current trend. Social media is a current trend. Shutting down mental health facilities is a (relatively) current trend. The AR-15 style rifle is not a current trend.

[Kenswing]

Not sure if gun control would make much difference, a child can make a Molotov cocktail.
That's how we used to get rid of wasp nests.. :jester:

[GrumpyOldMan]

Taming the out of control violent culture is critical. Guns have been a part of this country since even before its inception. The AR-15 came out in the 60's. So you can't blame the problem on that.

Mass shootings are a current trend. Social media is a current trend. Shutting down mental health facilities is a (relatively) current trend. The AR-15 style rifle is not a current trend.

I am also sure you know the generally accepted first mass shooting was in 1963 (or 1964 - not sure now) with a student in a tower at a Texas college/university, using a rifle. It is still ranked around 11th as most deadly mass shooting. So, we could say the modern mass shooting "thing" started there.

[New Englander]

Tell me the difference between these two rifles.. Which one is an "Assault Weapon"? One is a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, the other an AR-15.

Nothing different. They may label the mini-14 a ranch rifle but it's really an assault rifle. I am familiar with weapons.

[Kenswing]

I am also sure you know the generally accepted first mass shooting was in 1963 (or 1964 - not sure now) with a student in a tower at a Texas college/university, using a rifle. It is still ranked around 11th as most deadly mass shooting. So, we could say the modern mass shooting "thing" started there.

Actually it was in 1966. The gunman used an M-1 carbine and other rifles, a revolver and shotgun.

The next mass shooting was in 1975, then 1982. 2009 is when things really started to get bad.

ETA: I was referencing an article that listed mass shootings of 10 or more people.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

A huge part of the problem is an elephant in the room that gets threads shut down. So there's really no point in discussing it at all, because you can't discuss the root of the CURRENT situation.

I will state though - it isn't mental illness. Only 22% of all mass shootings involved a shooter who was declared mentally ill.

[Number 10 GI]

Wake up! Have you heard about the assault weapons available to
buy by any Tom, Dick or Harry ! Pass some laws that ban the sale of these types of weapons, that would be a start. Alas too many of our members of Congress are indebted to the NRA.

I'm wide awake. The original "assault weapon" was coined by the Germans in WWII to describe the StG44 rifle. Sturmgewehr is the name given to this rifle has been roughly translated to mean assault rifle. The German word Sturm actually means storm, like bad weather. The StG 44 was an intermediate caliber select fire weapon which means it could be fired in semi-automatic or full automatic mode by a selector switch. The full automatic function is what makes it an assault rifle. In storming an enemy position the automatic mode allows a heavy amount of fire to suppress the return fire until you can close with the enemy and kill him at point blank distance. A semi-auto won't fill this job. A lot of misinformed people believe that AR in AR15 means "assault rifle". It means Armalite Rifle. Armalite is the company that built the rifle designed by Eugene Stoner, the inventor of the rifle. The military named it the M16 which is a full automatic rifle. Assault Rifle is a term used by the media to create a sinister connotation for the AR15.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Actually it was in 1966. The gunman used an M-1 carbine and other rifles, a revolver and shotgun.

The next mass shooting was in 1975, then 1982. 2009 is when things really started to get bad.

ETA: I was referencing an article that listed mass shootings of 10 or more people.

:ho:

Thanks for the correction, I was only 16 at the time, so I was not paying much attention.

[Kenswing]

:ho:

Thanks for the correction, I was only 16 at the time, so I was not paying much attention.

Don't feel bad, I was only three.. :1rotfl:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Fixing mental illness issues doesn't solve a darned thing. The Sandy Hook killer was mentally ill, and was not a gun owner. His MOTHER was a gun owner. And here's the source of the song "I don't like Mondays" by the Boom Town Rats:

In early 1978, staff at a facility for problem students, into which Spencer had been referred for truancy, informed her parents that she was suicidal. That summer, Spencer, who was known to hunt birds in the neighborhood, was arrested for shooting out the windows of Cleveland Elementary with a BB gun and for burglary.[1][9] In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended that Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition.[5][7] Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and he bought me a gun." When asked why he might have done that, she answered, "I felt like he wanted me to kill myself." [7][10]

She was clearly mentally ill, and was seeking help. Her father, who was NOT mentally ill, provided her with the weapon that she used to shoot down students and teachers at the Cleveland Elementary School in 1979.

[Aces4]

That is very true, and can be proven by looking at history where it has happened. So we agree with that statement.

Now, could you point out how it is relevant on this thread? Has anyone proposed disarming "it's citizens"?

I understand the fear of a slippery slope, and agree it can not be allowed. But that is a far cry from the other slippery slope of not allowing any controls or restrictions. Would you agree that Nuclear weapons should not be permitted to be owned by citizens? Why not? After all Nuclear Weapons don't kill people, people kill people.

I’m more interested in the facts we are discussing about guns but a quick comment on all possibilities you want to examine.

You are proposing we need to ban cars also because one may be killed while in one with intention by a mentally deranged person?

Just how many items does the government need to ban to protect us? No thought is given to the obvious, monitoring the mentally ill. We have total invasion of our lives with cyber information gathering for everything but no one suggests monitoring bizarre behavior and information gathering by the mentally ill.

[Aces4]

A huge part of the problem is an elephant in the room that gets threads shut down. So there's really no point in discussing it at all, because you can't discuss the root of the CURRENT situation.

I will state though - it isn't mental illness. Only 22% of all mass shootings involved a shooter who was declared mentally ill.

I don’t believe mentally healthy people EVER consider slaughtering groups of people randomly and for any reason other than self defense. We’d all be walking around murdering people if that was the case.

[Aces4]

Fixing mental illness issues doesn't solve a darned thing. The Sandy Hook killer was mentally ill, and was not a gun owner. His MOTHER was a gun owner. And here's the source of the song "I don't like Mondays" by the Boom Town Rats:



She was clearly mentally ill, and was seeking help. Her father, who was NOT mentally ill, provided her with the weapon that she used to shoot down students and teachers at the Cleveland Elementary School in 1979.

Can we then think of institutions for the mentally ill. Do you realize how difficult it is to get help for a deranged person? Why do you think those stats are so low? People who has slipped through the cracks aren’t counted.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

These shootings have been driven by hate. You want to address the shootings, then address the encouragement of hate, the culture that promotes it, that feeds it, that profits from it.

Til then, you will see more of them.

[Aces4]

These shootings have been driven by hate. You want to address the shootings, then address the encouragement of hate, the culture that promotes it, that feeds it, that profits from it.

Til then, you will see more of them.

And that I would associate with modern tv programs, computer gaming and unparented children lost to society along with mental illness and psychosis.

[GrumpyOldMan]

These shootings have been driven by hate. You want to address the shootings, then address the encouragement of hate, the culture that promotes it, that feeds it, that profits from it.

Til then, you will see more of them.

I don't believe there is one cause, but a lot of reasons. I believe the desire for peer approval, the desire to be remembered, a desire for power over people, lots of reasons - among them hate.

[Aces4]

I don't believe there is one cause, but a lot of reasons. I believe the desire for peer approval, the desire to be remembered, a desire for power over people, lots of reasons - among them hate.

True.

[Taltarzac725]

These shootings have been driven by hate. You want to address the shootings, then address the encouragement of hate, the culture that promotes it, that feeds it, that profits from it.

Til then, you will see more of them.

The Austin, Texas U of TX tower shooter might have been mentally ill. But a lot of these other mass murderers are basically evil. And should be judged that way in a court of law. Like the one in El Paso, Texas. He planned a terrorist attack and carried it out fully knowing what he was doing. It was premeditated mass murder. Charles Whitman - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman)

[Northwoods]

I don't believe guns should be banned. Hunting is part of our culture and people own guns for protection. People also shoot guns for sport. But I have a hard time understanding why someone needs to own a semi-automatic weapon or any gun that can shoot a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time.
I get all the arguments... "only criminals will have guns," "it's a mental illness issue," "guns don't kill people." etc. But guns that fire a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time can potentially kill a lot of people. Why should people have a right to own this type of weapon? What do you use them for? And If you can own this type of weapon, why shouldn't you be able to own a machine gun... a grenade... or an atomic bomb? None of those kill people, it's the person that uses them.
If it is illegal to own a machine gun, I think it should be illegal to own a "semi automatic weapon" of any sort. Will it stop killings or mass murders? No. Will making it illegal keep it out of the hands of killers? No. But maybe it will stop one person from buying that weapon.. or make it a lot harder for someone to buy that weapon. If it stops a mass shooting.. would it be worth it?
"

[Taltarzac725]

I don't believe guns should be banned. Hunting is part of our culture and people own guns for protection. People also shoot guns for sport. But I have a hard time understanding why someone needs to own a semi-automatic weapon or any gun that can shoot a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time.
I get all the arguments... "only criminals will have guns," "it's a mental illness issue," "guns don't kill people." etc. But guns that fire a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time can potentially kill a lot of people. Why should people have a right to own this type of weapon? What do you use them for? And If you can own this type of weapon, why shouldn't you be able to own a machine gun... a grenade... or an atomic bomb? None of those kill people, it's the person that uses them.
If it is illegal to own a machine gun, I think it should be illegal to own a "semi automatic weapon" of any sort. Will it stop killings or mass murders? No. Will making it illegal keep it out of the hands of killers? No. But maybe it will stop one person from buying that weapon.. or make it a lot harder for someone to buy that weapon. If it stops a mass shooting.. would it be worth it?
"

Yes it would. And going after the culture that encourages ownership of rifles that are made for the battlefield is something that needs to be done. They have been altered a little to be able to be sold to civilians but are still basically military rifles.

And these military weapons would probably tear apart game animals so I do not see much use of them for hunting. Home protection, maybe. But weapons long available to the general public would be just as useful for home defense.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I don't believe guns should be banned. Hunting is part of our culture and people own guns for protection. People also shoot guns for sport. But I have a hard time understanding why someone needs to own a semi-automatic weapon or any gun that can shoot a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time.
I get all the arguments... "only criminals will have guns," "it's a mental illness issue," "guns don't kill people." etc. But guns that fire a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time can potentially kill a lot of people. Why should people have a right to own this type of weapon? What do you use them for? And If you can own this type of weapon, why shouldn't you be able to own a machine gun... a grenade... or an atomic bomb? None of those kill people, it's the person that uses them.
If it is illegal to own a machine gun, I think it should be illegal to own a "semi automatic weapon" of any sort. Will it stop killings or mass murders? No. Will making it illegal keep it out of the hands of killers? No. But maybe it will stop one person from buying that weapon.. or make it a lot harder for someone to buy that weapon. If it stops a mass shooting.. would it be worth it?
"

Because the Constitution, which was written before these kinds of weapons existed, in a world that had no technology to speak of (electricity wasn't available in households until the following century and the White House didn't have running water until the 1800s) says they can, therefore they can, and their right to do something is more important than your right to not be victimized by it.

[Kenswing]

I don't believe guns should be banned. Hunting is part of our culture and people own guns for protection. People also shoot guns for sport. But I have a hard time understanding why someone needs to own a semi-automatic weapon or any gun that can shoot a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time.
I get all the arguments... "only criminals will have guns," "it's a mental illness issue," "guns don't kill people." etc. But guns that fire a large amount of bullets in a short amount of time can potentially kill a lot of people. Why should people have a right to own this type of weapon? What do you use them for? And If you can own this type of weapon, why shouldn't you be able to own a machine gun... a grenade... or an atomic bomb? None of those kill people, it's the person that uses them.
If it is illegal to own a machine gun, I think it should be illegal to own a "semi automatic weapon" of any sort. Will it stop killings or mass murders? No. Will making it illegal keep it out of the hands of killers? No. But maybe it will stop one person from buying that weapon.. or make it a lot harder for someone to buy that weapon. If it stops a mass shooting.. would it be worth it?
"
That leaves us with bolt and lever action rifles, shotguns and revolvers. How do you propose getting rid of all the other pistols and rifles?

[manaboutown]

Because the Constitution, which was written before these kinds of weapons existed, in a world that had no technology to speak of (electricity wasn't available in households until the following century and the White House didn't have running water until the 1800s) says they can, therefore they can, and their right to do something is more important than your right to not be victimized by it.

Americans have the right to defend themselves with lethal force if necessary. Criminals will obtain guns no matter the law as they do in Mexico and other countries. If I have a gun I can hopefully shoot someone who has broken into my home rather than wait 20 minutes or more for the police to show up and discover my corpse.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Americans have the right to defend themselves with lethal force if necessary. Criminals will obtain guns no matter the law as they do in Mexico and other countries. If I have a gun I can hopefully shoot someone who has broken into my home rather than wait 20 minutes or more for the police to show up and discover my corpse.

This is a common argument for guns, and I believe it is mostly a reasonable argument. However, the trouble is in the details:

1. The argument does not require unlimited unregistered guns of any kind to protect ones self at home or in public. One could say they need automatic weapons using this argument, since without them only bad guys would have automatic weapons. One could say they need a Challenger 2 tank to protect their family. One could say they need a nuclear weapon to protect themselves against N. Korea and others. One of the fundamental reasons villages and larger groups of people were created is to provide for the common defense so individuals do not have to protect themselves from every possible enemy.

2. The argument does not require you be able to defend yourself without training and certification/licensing - neither of which would prevent your defending yourself or your family and would in fact help you do so.

3. The argument does not require you be able to accumulate unregistered guns. I personally do not believe that registering your guns would help stop mass shootings, but I see no reason it would hurt.

4. Requiring guns to be designed to only be able to be used by registered owners would not prevent you from defending yourself or your family and would prevent a bad guy from taking your gun away from you and killing you and your family (and other families) with it.

The number of lives saved by having unlimited access to guns seems to be seriously out weighed by the number of innocent people that are killed by bad people having guns. The argument that society would be safer if there were more guns would seem to have been proven wrong, since we now have over 300 million guns in circulation, that is more guns than adults.

With 300 million guns in circulation it is not possible to enforce a ban, so that is not going to happen. (Or let's just say, attempting to do so would probably make the civil war look like a peace rally). We have allowed this untenable situation to happen, and we need to figure out how to resolve it.

As has been said, the guns of themselves are not the problem. It is the undesirable uses of them that are the problem.

I find it difficult to understand why people who want to own guns are not the most vocal in trying to resolve this problem. It would be in both sides interest to work together to find a solution.

And finally, some statements from both sides from are just not useful. I have a daughter in law who said she was not worried about her son being killed in a school shooting, she was going to train him to use guns and he would be packing went he went into first grade. Seriously, I am not making that up. Can you imagine a class full of first graders all carrying guns?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Wow. What kind of white supremacy sources news media do you get your info from? Scary and stupid.

I am not sure you actually read the links.

In any case, it is in fact true that the US does not lead the world in mass shootings. the exact place we hold in the list depends on how you arrange the numbers (per capital, numbers killed, etc.) but in almost any way you analyze the data there are in fact much more dangerous places in the world. But, also, on a per capita basis (which is how it is often reported) countries with small populations will tend to be higher in the list with fewer shootings. It also depends on what you call a "mass shooting" - how many people killed by how many people, and why.

All that being said, I don't see it as significant. tell the families and children of the dead at any of the shootings here that they are safer here than they would be somewhere else, I expect you will receive a fairly incredulous glare in return.

We in fact have a problem. The problem is getting worse. We need to find a solution that we all can live with. We the people.

[Aces4]

I am not sure you actually read the links.

In any case, it is in fact true that the US does not lead the world in mass shootings. the exact place we hold in the list depends on how you arrange the numbers (per capital, numbers killed, etc.) but in almost any way you analyze the data there are in fact much more dangerous places in the world. But, also, on a per capita basis (which is how it is often reported) countries with small populations will tend to be higher in the list with fewer shootings. It also depends on what you call a "mass shooting" - how many people killed by how many people, and why.

All that being said, I don't see it as significant. tell the families and children of the dead at any of the shootings here that they are safer here than they would be somewhere else, I expect you will receive a fairly incredulous glare in return.

We in fact have a problem. The problem is getting worse. We need to find a solution that we all can live with. We the people.

I think the same one sided theories can be spewed over and over again. But the bottom line is the fact that the USA is the prime target of several countries which crave our demise. Plus the fact that we have a wide open border and who knows who has already penetrated the population of the USA with the intent to create catastrophic damage.

Why the devil is it necessary to unarm US citizens who day in and day out uphold the law, act responsibly and store their weapons accordingly? If it is the perfect plan to unarm the citizenry does it make Russia shine as a country? Is anyone watching the squelching of the voice of the people right now in that country as they try to protest the questionable actions of their government?

When do we ban automobiles and airplanes? These two vehicles have caused far more injury and death in the US than any guns. Or maybe the most we allow is a smart car for everyone because fewer people would be killed or injured with a smaller vehicle.

To say that there is very little mental illness involved in shootings and that people are evil instead makes me laugh. A normal brain does not function on the premise that taking lives is fun. Isn’t that the main thrust of PTSD syndrome? There is something wrong upstairs when people want to commit mass murders!

It would be a huge mistake to unarm our citizenry, your freedom may depend on it someday. Why don’t those who champion government gun control champion mental health facilities and monitoring? Because grabbing guns is cheaper and easier.

[Taltarzac725]

I think the same one sided theories can be spewed over and over again. But the bottom line is the fact that the USA is the prime target of several countries which crave our demise. Plus the fact that we have a wide open border and who knows who has already penetrated the population of the USA with the intent to create catastrophic damage.

Why the devil is it necessary to unarm US citizens who day in and day out uphold the law, act responsibly and store their weapons accordingly? If it is the perfect plan to unarm the citizenry does it make Russia shine as a country? Is anyone watching the squelching of the voice of the people right now in that country as they try to protest the questionable actions of their government?

When do we ban automobiles and airplanes? These two vehicles have caused far more injury and death in the US than any guns. Or maybe the most we allow is a smart car for everyone because fewer people would be killed or injured with a smaller vehicle.

To say that there is very little mental illness involved in shootings and that people are evil instead makes me laugh. A normal brain does not function on the premise that taking lives is fun. Isn’t that the main thrust of PTSD syndrome? There is something wrong upstairs when people want to commit mass murders!

It would be a huge mistake to unarm our citizenry, your freedom may depend on it someday. Why don’t those who champion government gun control champion mental health facilities and monitoring? Because grabbing guns is cheaper and easier.

No one wants to disarm the people of this country. Stop the manufacture and further sale of assault type weapons like those used in many recent shootings. Yes. And develop buy back programs with local police departments for assault like weapons.

Many terrorists are fanatics. They look mentally ill to "normal" people. The 9/11 terrorists were not mentally ill nor the Boston Marathon bombers. They were radicalized though by propaganda. I have not seen any signs of mental illness in the Dayton nor El Paso mass murderers.

[Polar Bear]

...I have not seen any signs of mental illness in the Dayton nor El Paso mass murderers.
Wow.

I don’t even know what to say about that observation.

[graciegirl]

I am not sure you actually read the links.

In any case, it is in fact true that the US does not lead the world in mass shootings. the exact place we hold in the list depends on how you arrange the numbers (per capital, numbers killed, etc.) but in almost any way you analyze the data there are in fact much more dangerous places in the world. But, also, on a per capita basis (which is how it is often reported) countries with small populations will tend to be higher in the list with fewer shootings. It also depends on what you call a "mass shooting" - how many people killed by how many people, and why.

All that being said, I don't see it as significant. tell the families and children of the dead at any of the shootings here that they are safer here than they would be somewhere else, I expect you will receive a fairly incredulous glare in return.

We in fact have a problem. The problem is getting worse. We need to find a solution that we all can live with. We the people.

And while we are at it, we need to address the 68,000, that is correct, sixty-eight thousand people that died last year, 2018, from illegal drug overdose in the United States. This is despite laws that make it illegal to sell and to buy drugs to make yourself high, to make your thoughts disordered. Perhaps we should start taking guns away from people who have ever been caught with illegal drugs. I think most people would stand behind that. Oh wait. Felony possession of drugs does not allow the felon to own a gun. Watch one hour of live P.D. on A&E and see how many guns are found on people with illegal drugs. Maybe we should think of something else. Maybe if people who did not have much money were given money by the government from a fund taken from people who worked hard all of their lives. AND from some rich jerks who just woke up and found it or worked 14-16 hours a day at a high paying very stressful job?

Complex issues are not easy to solve, but are often averted by moral parents making sacrifices to be with their children when they are small and being tough on their tots when they steal, lie, and do all of the things little humans do.

This post won't last long. Good morning everyone. It is a beautiful day in The Villages where the large majority of folks agree with what I just said.

deaths in the u.s. due to overdose in 2018 - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=deaths+in+the+u.s.+due+to+overdose+in+201 8&form=EDGHPT&qs=PF&cvid=72a33305139f4e83ba17be47dea5be20&refig=cfc8ba82de47434a9a684d33cda033e8&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AXK1c4IvZoNqPoPnS%21QRLOM3LdZkq3*YljrC6ZO4VUDx P9sTjRQmb54*iZwG2lsTdUOfZ4tmUBltUsoN9QfszMnxkh6woP dg6QV%21bp1imt9n&plvar=0&PC=DCTS)

Disclaimer. I don't own a gun.

[Aces4]

No one wants to disarm the people of this country. Stop the manufacture and further sale of assault type weapons like those used in many recent shootings. Yes. And develop buy back programs with local police departments for assault like weapons.

Many terrorists are fanatics. They look mentally ill to "normal" people. The 9/11 terrorists were not mentally ill nor the Boston Marathon bombers. They were radicalized though by propaganda. I have not seen any signs of mental illness in the Dayton nor El Paso mass murderers.

Stop the manufacture and sales... that is disarming, plain and clear and the offenders will still find those arms for themselves. They are mentally ill, not stupid.

“Radicalization” is, in studies, defined with mental health issues as the risk factor along with psychoses and autism are reported as common.

As reported earlier in this thread, shootings have increased slowly since the 1960’s. Guess when mental health institutions began to close, the 1960’s.

Do online searches for: how release of mental health patients began. It has been admitted that it was a huge mistake and I think more than likely responsible for the mass murders the US has suffered.

[Taltarzac725]

Wow.

I don’t even know what to say about that observation.

You do know I am using the legal definition of mental illness whether the actor knows right from wrong and had full control of his or her actions. Both of these men planned their evil in advance and carefully and have no history of mental illness that I have seen.

Mental illness used by the average person could mean many things-- depression, addiction, etc.

Some seem to be using these two men's evil actions as yet another ruse not to actually address the gun problem in the US as well as the hate problem. These are connected.

[Taltarzac725]

Stop the manufacture and sales... that is disarming, plain and clear and the offenders will still find those arms for themselves.

“Radicalization” is, in studies, defined with mental health issues as the risk factor along with psychoses and autism are reported as common.

As reported earlier in this thread, shootings have increased slowly since the 1960’s. Guess when mental health institutions began to close, the 1960’s.

Do online searches for: how release of mental health patients began. It has been admitted that it was a huge mistake.

Most mentally ill people are the victims of violence and not those that carry it out. Do some research.

And look at the practices at some of those institutions. Many of these people had no clue about how to treat people. And there are still problems. There's a Psychiatrist Crisis in America That Few Are Talking About (https://psychcentral.com/blog/theres-a-psychiatrist-crisis-in-america-that-few-are-talking-about/)

[Two Bills]

We in UK banned hand guns many years ago, after a mass shooting of children in Scotland in 1996.
Banning guns was not a big deal, as we never really had a 'gun culture' anyway.
Stict laws were put onto shotgun ownership for sport, ie. blowing birds out of the sky every fall for a few months.
Our major problem now is knives.
Stabbings, singular and mass, are daily occurences, and amongst the young in most major cities, being stabbed is sadly, a normal risk if you get into an argument.
Most tpypes of knife, with few exeptions are banned from being carried, but it has made not a jot of difference to the number of incidents, in fact numbers of stabbings are on the rise.
So just banning certain types of weapon is not always the panacea.
It takes a whole lot more, and that 'more' is the major stumbling block, and the million dollar question in getting a ban to work.

[Aces4]

Most mentally ill people are the victims of violence and not those that carry it out. Do some research.

And look at the practices at some of those institutions. Many of these people had no clue about how to treat people. And there are still problems. There's a Psychiatrist Crisis in America That Few Are Talking About (https://psychcentral.com/blog/theres-a-psychiatrist-crisis-in-america-that-few-are-talking-about/)

We’re talking apples and oranges, Tal. I’ve done a lot of research and, of course, not every person with mental illness will be violent in this manor. In fact, it is the minority that will project violence in this fashion.

I agree that SOME of the mentally ill have been victims of violence and many because the safety net was removed. The institutions were shuttered because lack of interest in cleaning up the management and money that politicians were saving for their own interests.

This doesn’t change the fact that mental illness is the leading factors in these murders and they will continue to wreak this sad havoc if the public is unwilling to advocate for change in dealing with those individuals.

Trust me when I say they will find even more heinous methods than automatic weapons.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Why the devil is it necessary to unarm US citizens who day in and day out uphold the law, act responsibly and store their weapons accordingly?



Why do people keep spreading this line? Is it to spread fear? As far as I know no one in any position to do anything has ever suggested disarming America.

[Aces4]

Why do people keep spreading this line? Is it to spread fear? As far as I know no one in any position to do anything has ever suggested disarming America.

If you are removing guns, you are disarming, that simple. I still haven’t seen an answer as to why automobiles and airplanes shouldn’t be banned since this is the first knee jerk reaction to the risk association.

I think the real line here is the solution is simple, remove all guns with the exception of pistols and shotguns. Bill from the UK has provided some powerful insight here. Those intent on doing harm will find a way whether or not there are guns.

[Northwoods]

In the Dayton Ohio shooting, the gunman was killed in LESS THAN one minute after he started shooting. In less than a minute 9 people were killed and 27 people were injured. He used an assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines. He bought the gun legally. I can't imagine a reason why citizens are able to legally buy this type of weapon.

[Number 10 GI]

Yes it would. And going after the culture that encourages ownership of rifles that are made for the battlefield is something that needs to be done. They have been altered a little to be able to be sold to civilians but are still basically military rifles.

And these military weapons would probably tear apart game animals so I do not see much use of them for hunting. Home protection, maybe. But weapons long available to the general public would be just as useful for home defense.

Every type of gun has been used by the military at one time or another and for the most part are currently owned by civilians. The Revolutionary army used flintlocks and so did civilians. The Civil War saw the use of cap lock muzzle loading rifles and near the end of the war lever action rifles were being used by the Union Army. The lever action is still a very popular rifle used by hunters and recreational shooters. WWI saw the use of the bolt action rifle that is used by hunters and target shooters. WWII introduced the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine which are semi-automatic rifles that are in great demand today by civilian shooters. The M16/M4 rifle is for the most part not available for civilians due to it being a full automatic rifle.
The round the AR15, M16/M4 shoots is the 5.56 X45 aka .223 in commercial ammo caliber designation. It does not tear up game animals. The .223/5.56 in most states is not allowed to be used on large game (deer, antelope, elk, etc.) not because it is so powerful, but because it isn't powerful enough.

[Taltarzac725]

We’re talking apples and oranges, Tal. I’ve done a lot of research and, of course, not every person with mental illness will be violent in this manor. In fact, it is the minority that will project violence in this fashion.

I agree that SOME of the mentally ill have been victims of violence and many because the safety net was removed. The institutions were shuttered because lack of interest in cleaning up the management and money that politicians were saving for their own interests.

This doesn’t change the fact that mental illness is the leading factors in these murders and they will continue to wreak this sad havoc if the public is unwilling to advocate for change in dealing with those individuals.

Trust me when I say they will find even more heinous methods than automatic weapons.

They have. Trucks. Like in Paris.

But police and others can plan for these kind of actions. And these murderers are usually driven by hate not mental illness. Hate propagated usually for the benefit of someone using it as a tool. And these players could not care less about the people they use.

I had a friend in library school in 1983-1984 who was from the U of Mosul Library in Iraq. Nice man and not mentally ill in any way. But as soon as he returned to Iraq from Denver and got into the propaganda surrounding the 1980 Iran-Iraq war he was angrier and angrier at anything about the West. I had stop writing him as a pen pal because his letters had so much hatred in them.

They destroyed the U of Mosul library around 2014. ISIS. Fanatics driven by hatred. Some probably are mentally ill too from what they have seen and done in those many wars in Iraq.

[Taltarzac725]

Every type of gun has been used by the military at one time or another and for the most part are currently owned by civilians. The Revolutionary army used flintlocks and so did civilians. The Civil War saw the use of cap lock muzzle loading rifles and near the end of the war lever action rifles were being used by the Union Army. The lever action is still a very popular rifle used by hunters and recreational shooters. WWI saw the use of the bolt action rifle that is used by hunters and target shooters. WWII introduced the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine which are semi-automatic rifles that are in great demand today by civilian shooters. The M16/M4 rifle is for the most part not available for civilians due to it being a full automatic rifle.
The round the AR15, M16/M4 shoots is the 5.56 X45 aka .223 in commercial ammo caliber designation. It does not tear up game animals. The .223/5.56 in most states is not allowed to be used on large game (deer, antelope, elk, etc.) not because it is so powerful, but because it isn't powerful enough.

What is it with guns?

Why do people love these so much?

You only need a gun for home protection and maybe some for hunting.

[Aces4]

They have. Trucks. Like in Paris.

But police and others can plan for these kind of actions. And these murderers are usually driven by hate not mental illness. Hate propagated usually for the benefit of someone using it as a tool.

I had a friend in library school in 1983-1984 who was from the U of Mosul Library in Iraq. Nice man and not mentally ill in any way. But as soon as he returned to Iraq from Denver and got into the propaganda surrounding the 1980 Iran-Iraq war he was angrier and angrier at anything about the West. I had stop writing him as a pen pal because his letters had so much hatred in them.

They destroyed the U of Mosul library around 2014. ISIS. Fanatics driven by hatred. Some probably are mentally ill too from what they have seen and done in those many wars in Iraq.

And you think hate of that magnitude isn’t mental illness?

[Taltarzac725]

In the Dayton Ohio shooting, the gunman was killed in LESS THAN one minute after he started shooting. In less than a minute 9 people were killed and 27 people were injured. He used an assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines. He bought the gun legally. I can't imagine a reason why citizens are able to legally buy this type of weapon.

Me neither. What is the purpose of such a weapon? To kill people very quickly is all I can think of.

[GrumpyOldMan]

If you are removing guns, you are disarming, that simple. I still haven’t seen an answer as to why automobiles and airplanes shouldn’t be banned since this is the first knee jerk reaction to the risk association.

I think the real line here is the solution is simple, remove all guns with the exception of pistols and shotguns. Bill from the UK has provided some powerful insight here. Those intent on doing harm will find a way whether or not there are guns.

So, you are in favor of mentally ill people with a desire to kill as many people as possible to buy and own guns??

Conflating "disarming Americans" with regulating who can own guns is a bit of a scare tactic from my point of view.

During the previous administration it was believed that guns sales were going to be seriously reduced, resulting in massive increases in people buying guns and ammunitions. Now that the previous administration is over, the numbers have been added up and in fact just the opposite occurred, and more guns were sold during it that under any other in history.

Again, conflating regulation with disarming is not helping the conversation or helping to solve the problem.

[Taltarzac725]

And you don’t think hate of that magnitude isn’t mental illness?

No it is not. Unless you want to say the whole world went crazy in WWI and WWII.

Post traumatic stress syndrome is a mental illness. I have met many people suffering from it. And many of the victims/survivors of these El Paso and Dayton shootings will now have it.

My former Villages' neighbor's son suffers from it because of the murder of his niece in the Parkland shooting. He is so scared by these recent shootings he does not want to leave his house.

[Lottoguy]

You know your argument on guns is no good when you compare cars killing people to guns killing people. Laughable!

[Lottoguy]

I think being able to buy a 100 round magazine lawfully is more the reason then church's not being filled.

[Taltarzac725]

You know your argument on guns is no good when you compare cars killing people to guns killing people. Laughable!

It is laughable that we cannot do something about men full of hatred who use assault style weapons to terrorize their fellow Americans.

[Aces4]

No it is not. Unless you want to say the whole world went crazy in WWI and WWII.

Post traumatic stress syndrome is a mental illness. I have met many people suffering from it. And many of the victims/survivors of these El Paso and Dayton shootings will now have it.

Hilter was the delusional, mentally unstable person with the guns. Thank heavens the rest of the world had weapons to hold him at bay and I don’t know how defending one’s country would ever be equated with “crazy”.

And that is the point with PTSD, when normal, healthy people are put in the stressful position of shooting others they suffer mental breakdowns because killing other humans isn’t normal for them.

[Taltarzac725]

It is laughable that we cannot do something about men full of hatred who use assault style weapons to terrorize their fellow Americans.

Take their tools away is the most logical.

[Aces4]

You know your argument on guns is no good when you compare cars killing people to guns killing people. Laughable!

We’re comparing risks and it is even funnier that it isn’t considered an important factor when you think of the numbers of guns in the states and cars in the states and the death rates. Automobile deaths would be lowered dramatically if certain laws were changed but you wouldn’t want anyone to take your car away and leave you with a smart car for your lifetime.

Read Bill from the UK’s statement, you can’t stop those with intent.

[Aces4]

Take their tools away is the most logical.

Monitor mental illness is better, new tools can be found anywhere.

[manaboutown]

That the Ohio shooter was seriously mentally disturbed is clear from his now canceled Twitter account. Here are some screenshots from it. Twitter Suspends Account Allegedly Linked to Ohio Shooter | Breitbart (https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2019/08/04/twitter-suspends-allegedly-ohio-shooter/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR19ALg3atex27oVDRJi1JBx3BEvh7E2uoQ6GJwEs Z0rHj0qRLYdOums6T4)

According to his classmates he also kept "Hit" and "Rape" lists. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/08/05/classmates-connor-betts-kept-a-hit-list-and-a-rape-list/?fbclid=IwAR3PVeAji5T_iy1iesvPbDGVYlSK2kjGSUucD16u eF0avtc8lyV6OuFDFYY

[JackRussell]

You're right. Our kids and grandkids should be taught how to use and carry a gun so they won't become victims. Almost all mass shootings occur in Gun Free Zones.

[graciegirl]

Take their tools away is the most logical.

Yes it is. But it is also highly unrealistic. That is locking the barn after the horses are out.

[Barefoot]

I guess I am thinking, when one of us gets hurt, we are all hurting.
Just look at us in TOTV how concerned we are about these shootings.Velvet, very true.

[fw102807]

People have been killing each other since the beginning of time. They just didn’t hear about it 5 seconds after it happened and have it regurgitated for days after.

[Barefoot]

The 9/11 terrorists were not mentally ill nor the Boston Marathon bombers. I have not seen any signs of mental illness in the Dayton nor El Paso mass murderers. I don't agree. :ohdear: I think that all terrorists are demented and mentally ill.
I think anyone who shoots people in cold blood for whatever reason is mentally ill.

[Barefoot]

People have been killing each other since the beginning of time. They just didn’t hear about it 5 seconds after it happened and have it regurgitated for days after."Fame" is probably part of their sick motivation for mass shootings.

[fw102807]

"Fame" is probably part of their sick motivation for mass shootings.

Exactly. I would like to think that gun control would solve the problem but people who are determined to kill are going to find a way to do it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And you think hate of that magnitude isn’t mental illness?

No, it's not. And the fact that you don't understand this is disheartening. Americans who committed atrocities on civilians in Vietnam were driven by hate, and not mentally ill - yet. When they came back, that's another story.

People who were led into following the Nazi regime, believing in the dogma, and committing atrocities in the name of hatred of "other" during WWII - were not mentally ill.

People who are committing atrocities now in the name of hatred of "other" are not mentally ill. Only 22% of mass shootings in the USA were committed by the mentally ill. The other 78% were NOT mentally ill. They acted out of hate and fear of "other." Those acts were driven by people of influence, who led them to the hatred and fear with words, actions, or a combination of both.

[Sharonenright]

Anyone know of even conversation taking place about a uniquely American situation ?

Anyone know of any legislation being discussed ?

The legislative solution will ge the same as always: “thoughts and prayers”.
The legislators’ only concern is for the big donors.

[graciegirl]

The legislative solution will ge the same as always: “thoughts and prayers”.
The legislators’ only concern is for the big donors.

Some of them. But some are just as concerned as you and I. Sometimes ALL that can be said are words of sympathy. ALL of us would like to solve these problems and each believes we have the answer. Starting new arguments and saying demeaning things to others especially things not completely accurate only relieves our own emotional "steam" for a moment. We are the wise, older ones. Many of us are not past the "define the problem" and "gather facts on the problem" part of problem solving and some people will never, ever accept that some problems can never be solved completly because of the human factor.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Starting new arguments and saying demeaning things to others especially things not completely accurate only relieves our own emotional "steam" for a moment.

FINALLY, something I can disagree with you on. :)

I find "venting" no longer releases the steam, it seems to have the opposite effect and gets me and my wife more upset.

We are trying hard to avoid venting - it seems to be working. The more we try to listen to the other side and find things we can agree with, the better we feel after the conversation.

[Polar Bear]

...We are trying hard to avoid venting - it seems to be working. The more we try to listen to the other side and find things we can agree with, the better we feel after the conversation.
Wise words, you GrumpyOldMan. :)

[Velvet]

No, it's not. And the fact that you don't understand this is disheartening. Americans who committed atrocities on civilians in Vietnam were driven by hate, and not mentally ill - yet. When they came back, that's another story.

People who were led into following the Nazi regime, believing in the dogma, and committing atrocities in the name of hatred of "other" during WWII - were not mentally ill.

People who are committing atrocities now in the name of hatred of "other" are not mentally ill. Only 22% of mass shootings in the USA were committed by the mentally ill. The other 78% were NOT mentally ill. They acted out of hate and fear of "other." Those acts were driven by people of influence, who led them to the hatred and fear with words, actions, or a combination of both.

I agree especially about the Nazis, there is a difference between mentally ill and just plain evil, for me.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

What is it with guns?

Why do people love these so much?

You only need a gun for home protection and maybe some for hunting.


Sorry, guys, but I do believe in many cases owning a gun is a macho thing.

Yes, I would be willing to make book that that is a fact in a number of cases.

And yeah . . . . . I can't wait to hear the responses to this post! :a040:

[Aces4]

No, it's not. And the fact that you don't understand this is disheartening. Americans who committed atrocities on civilians in Vietnam were driven by hate, and not mentally ill - yet. When they came back, that's another story.

People who were led into following the Nazi regime, believing in the dogma, and committing atrocities in the name of hatred of "other" during WWII - were not mentally ill.

People who are committing atrocities now in the name of hatred of "other" are not mentally ill. Only 22% of mass shootings in the USA were committed by the mentally ill. The other 78% were NOT mentally ill. They acted out of hate and fear of "other." Those acts were driven by people of influence, who led them to the hatred and fear with words, actions, or a combination of both.

You will never convince me that anyone in a normal state of mind murders in cold blood. A dysfunctional brain can causes evil actions. One may hypothesize but to state a mass murderer is normal but evil is hiding the truth, IMHO.

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I don't agree. :ohdear: I think that all terrorists are demented and mentally ill.
I think anyone who shoots people in cold blood for whatever reason is mentally ill.

I respectfully disagree. You weren't raised that way and the same holds true for most of us. Don't you see what hate has done in the world today?

I'd be willing to bet that these perpetrators -- these kids -- were raised by bigoted, narrow-minded parents who instilled hatred in their kids' minds. We all know this kind of mentality is environmental and starts at home. It is a learned process.

[Nipper]

Those who ignore atrocities of the past, are doomed to repeat them.

[fw102807]

You will never convince me that anyone in a normal state of mind murders in cold blood. A dysfunctional brain can causes evil actions. One may hypothesize but to state a mass murderer is normal but evil is hiding the truth, IMHO.

There have been numerous studies of the brains of serial killers to see if in fact there is evidence to support that they are pre-wired to do this. While there are some areas of the brain that had common denominators for this type of behavior they found that the killers also generally suffered from some type of abuse. There is no clear cut answer.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I agree especially about the Nazis, there is a difference between mentally ill and just plain evil, for me.

It's not evil, either. It is indoctrinated. HUGE difference. There are people who would otherwise not be committing atrocities - who are, because they have been indoctrinated. This will continue until the indoctrination stops.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There have been numerous studies of the brains of serial killers to see if in fact there is evidence to support that they are pre-wired to do this. While there are some areas of the brain that had common denominators for this type of behavior they found that the killers also generally suffered from some type of abuse. There is no clear cut answer.

The issue isn't about serial killers. Mass shooters who tell you exactly why they are doing it ("to stop the invasion" for example) are not serial killers.

They have been indoctrinated into believing there is an invasion, that this invasion is harming them, and that this invasion needs to be stopped.

They are not intrinsically evil people. They are people who have been duped into believing they are saving lives. And it will continue to get worse because of those who say "oh they're mentally ill" or "my right to own a gun is all-important" or "fake media" "this or that political whatever." Otherwise intelligent people choosing to ignore, or forgive, or pretend that this elephant doesn't exist.

It exists, it is ugly, it is telling otherwise mundane people that a) they need to be angry, b) it is "other's" fault, and c) if they got violent, it'd be okay.

[manaboutown]

Just a few days ago a grandmother likely stopped another one from happening. Officials say Grandmother Stopped 19-Year-Old Man From Carrying out Mass Shooting in Texas (https://www.theepochtimes.com/officials-say-grandmother-stopped-19-year-old-man-from-carrying-out-mass-shooting-in-texas_3030471.html?fbclid=IwAR0ygAJi2xJ_5p1PGqDSVK _34eyUlfvdbQ5J9ddz6Xe16OEjNaVzGRU5KAk)

[Aces4]

The issue isn't about serial killers. Mass shooters who tell you exactly why they are doing it ("to stop the invasion" for example) are not serial killers.

They have been indoctrinated into believing there is an invasion, that this invasion is harming them, and that this invasion needs to be stopped.

They are not intrinsically evil people. They are people who have been duped into believing they are saving lives. And it will continue to get worse because of those who say "oh they're mentally ill" or "my right to own a gun is all-important" or "fake media" "this or that political whatever." Otherwise intelligent people choosing to ignore, or forgive, or pretend that this elephant doesn't exist.

It exists, it is ugly, it is telling otherwise mundane people that a) they need to be angry, b) it is "other's" fault, and c) if they got violent, it'd be okay.

If you believe your posts, you must have read the online notes the Ohio murderer left explaining why he was going to commit the heinous act. So how do we eliminate the source of his angst so he wouldn’t have those evil thoughts?

How could we have kept the shooter away from the diatribes and accusations he heard constantly even thought it was just that, diatribe. That’s the donkey in the room. Constant harrassment he witnessed must have pushed him over.

[Fredster]

I'm wide awake. The original "assault weapon" was coined by the Germans in WWII to describe the StG44 rifle. Sturmgewehr is the name given to this rifle has been roughly translated to mean assault rifle. The German word Sturm actually means storm, like bad weather. The StG 44 was an intermediate caliber select fire weapon which means it could be fired in semi-automatic or full automatic mode by a selector switch. The full automatic function is what makes it an assault rifle. In storming an enemy position the automatic mode allows a heavy amount of fire to suppress the return fire until you can close with the enemy and kill him at point blank distance. A semi-auto won't fill this job. A lot of misinformed people believe that AR in AR15 means "assault rifle". It means Armalite Rifle. Armalite is the company that built the rifle designed by Eugene Stoner, the inventor of the rifle. The military named it the M16 which is a full automatic rifle. Assault Rifle is a term used by the media to create a sinister connotation for the AR15.

Thanks for clarifying that.
It might help some commenters on this forum,
that really have very limited firearm knowledge.

[fw102807]

The issue isn't about serial killers. Mass shooters who tell you exactly why they are doing it ("to stop the invasion" for example) are not serial killers.

They have been indoctrinated into believing there is an invasion, that this invasion is harming them, and that this invasion needs to be stopped.

They are not intrinsically evil people. They are people who have been duped into believing they are saving lives. And it will continue to get worse because of those who say "oh they're mentally ill" or "my right to own a gun is all-important" or "fake media" "this or that political whatever." Otherwise intelligent people choosing to ignore, or forgive, or pretend that this elephant doesn't exist.

It exists, it is ugly, it is telling otherwise mundane people that a) they need to be angry, b) it is "other's" fault, and c) if they got violent, it'd be okay.

Most people who have a "cause" protest or find some other way to draw attention to it, they do not go around killing innocent people. These people are killers.

[Aces4]

Most people who have a "cause" protest or find some other way to draw attention to it, they do not go around killing innocent people. These people are killers.

I believe psychos is the correct term.

[Barefoot]

I'd be willing to bet that these perpetrators -- these kids -- were raised by bigoted, narrow-minded parents who instilled hatred in their kids' minds. We all know this kind of mentality is environmental and starts at home. It is a learned process.I respectfully disagree.
I think anyone who has hatred to the extent that they feel like killing people in cold blood is mentally ill.
Hate and anger, or mentally ill - it doesn't really matter.
It's a sick, evil person who thinks it's their right to kill innocent people.
It somehow makes it worse when the evil person kills children.

[manaboutown]

I think anyone who has hatred to the extent that they feel like killing people in cold blood is mentally ill.
Hate and anger, or mentally ill - it doesn't really matter.
It's a sick, evil person who thinks it's their right to kill innocent people.


Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, Nero, the 1915 Armenian Genocide by the Turks, and a host of others from ancient to modern times come to mind.

[Velvet]

I respectfully disagree.
I think anyone who has hatred to the extent that they feel like killing people in cold blood is mentally ill.
Hate and anger, or mentally ill - it doesn't really matter.
It's a sick, evil person who thinks it's their right to kill innocent people.
It somehow makes it worse when the evil person kills children.

And their own sister as in the case of the latest shooting. I also think people can be indoctrinated... to a degree. Look at cult behavior, for example. When it is presented that the behavior is a norm, or even expected (by God etc) I find some people are more easy to lead than others.

[manaboutown]

Alleged Twitter posts by the Dayton shooter. This was his mindset. Twitter Account Allegedly Linked to Ohio Shooter Retweeted Doxxing of ICE Employees | Breitbart (https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2019/08/05/twitter-account-allegedly-linked-to-ohio-shooter-retweeted-doxxing-of-ice-employees/?fbclid=IwAR32_967wYymf5gi2BeNPBRoGMTdY9lc_hgjIVzn 8V2u6SlAPZDT7Uug4ZQ)

[Trayderjoe]

I don't believe there is one cause, but a lot of reasons. I believe the desire for peer approval, the desire to be remembered, a desire for power over people, lots of reasons - among them hate.

All excellent points.

[manaboutown]

They are/were both crazy zealots just from from opposite corners of the intersection.

[Bucco]

Oh, and also for those who are defending whatever they are defending and not thinking accountability....read this toda, and words do matter...

No other way to bring this home:

Picture your dearest loved one — your husband, wife, parent, child.

Now picture a police officer knocking on YOUR door and saying you will never, EVER see them again due to a mass shooter with a gun.

This national emergency is not theoretical.

[Taltarzac725]

Oh, and also for those who are defending whatever they are defending and not thinking accountability....read this toda, and words do matter...

No other way to bring this home:

Picture your dearest loved one — your husband, wife, parent, child.

Now picture a police officer knocking on YOUR door and saying you will never, EVER see them again due to a mass shooter with a gun.

This national emergency is not theoretical.

My brother-in-law was a very nice man until his world got turned around by the loss of his mentor in India. He came back to the US and began to unravel. Slowly. He started eating just hot dogs and bought two semi-automatic pistols to which he became very attached. Not known at the time he also thought that pod people had taken over my brother and his wife.

My brother had allowed him to stay in his house up until the point that he would not get rid of the two pistols. He got kicked out and eventually killed himself a few years later.

He hid his mental illness extremely well keeping diaries that the VA police found after he committed suicide. Many people probably hide their internal problems well.

[Northwoods]

Do you know what scares me? The fact that this can happen anywhere. It used to be that you would avoid certain parts of town... or bars, because you didn't feel they were "safe". You knew where to walk, or shop or play because the neighborhood was "safe." Now... nothing is safe. A mass shooting could happen at our Walmart... or McDonald's... or Disney Springs.
I find that incredibly unsettling.

[Bucco]

Do you know what scares me? The fact that this can happen anywhere. It used to be that you would avoid certain parts of town... or bars, because you didn't feel they were "safe". You knew where to walk, or shop or play because the neighborhood was "safe." Now... nothing is safe. A mass shooting could happen at our Walmart... or McDonald's... or Disney Springs.
I find that incredibly unsettling.

Yes, it's scary. The leader of the US senate started an ad today showing his opponents tombstone. We are told legislation is coming relative to the fear, but will be tied to other political items.

Has anyone recently tried to pull this country together. Has anyone broached the subject that we are ALL Americans and scared. We have heard this same stuff about "we are going to..." and thus far, nothing happened so why believe it now.

There was an executive order that tried to deny guns from certain folks with mental problems , up it was overturned by another exec order.

It's a scary thing, and those who simply make it political are cruel human beings....we are one country.

Sorry for seemingly becoming political, but I am hurting right now, and cannot understand those who do not see the hate around now, and seemingly nobody to console the country or bring us together. These are horrible things that did not need to happen, should not have happened, and I think would have been prevented if this country would stop the accusations, the lies the crass language. First reaction publicly was to blame the media....that is tough to swallow fir me, and you can delete my post, complain to the mods all you want. I fought for, worked for and love this country. I am proud also, but the world is wondering what we are doing.

[Bucco]

My brother-in-law was a very nice man until his world got turned around by the loss of his mentor in India. He came back to the US and began to unravel. Slowly. He started eating just hot dogs and bought two semi-automatic pistols which he became very attached. Not known at the time he also thought that pod people had taken over my brother and his wife.

My brother had allowed him to stay in his house up until the point that he would not get rid of the two pistols. He got kicked out and eventually killed himself a few years later.

He hid his mental illness extremely well keeping diaries that the VA police found after he committed suicide. Many people probably hide their internal problems well.

Tal, there are not words to console your grief even after the passing of time. Be strong

[Bucco]

Do you know what scares me? The fact that this can happen anywhere. It used to be that you would avoid certain parts of town... or bars, because you didn't feel they were "safe". You knew where to walk, or shop or play because the neighborhood was "safe." Now... nothing is safe. A mass shooting could happen at our Walmart... or McDonald's... or Disney Springs.
I find that incredibly unsettling.

You are honest. Anyone who is not scared or concerned should be. That is not to crumble into a corner and stop living, but we are witnessing such hate from a known group of extremists, and they get support

[Velvet]

Yes, it's scary. The leader of the US senate started an ad today showing his opponents tombstone. We are told legislation is coming relative to the fear, but will be tied to other political items.

Has anyone recently tried to pull this country together. Has anyone broached the subject that we are ALL Americans and scared. We have heard this same stuff about "we are going to..." and thus far, nothing happened so why believe it now.

There was an executive order that tried to deny guns from certain folks with mental problems , up it was overturned by another exec order.

It's a scary thing, and those who simply make it political are cruel human beings....we are one country.

Sorry for seemingly becoming political, but I am hurting right now, and cannot understand those who do not see the hate around now, and seemingly nobody to console the country or bring us together. These are horrible things that did not need to happen, should not have happened, and I think would have been prevented if this country would stop the accusations, the lies the crass language. First reaction publicly was to blame the media....that is tough to swallow fir me, and you can delete my post, complain to the mods all you want. I fought for, worked for and love this country. I am proud also, but the world is wondering what we are doing.

“Divide et impera,” Julius Cesar

[Velvet]

Tal, it shows strength that you could share this story. I have married into mental illness myself, and while everything seems charming and “cool” under the surface I was paddling as fast as a duck.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Yes, it's scary. The leader of the US senate started an ad today showing his opponents tombstone. We are told legislation is coming relative to the fear, but will be tied to other political items.

Has anyone recently tried to pull this country together. Has anyone broached the subject that we are ALL Americans and scared. We have heard this same stuff about "we are going to..." and thus far, nothing happened so why believe it now.

There was an executive order that tried to deny guns from certain folks with mental problems , up it was overturned by another exec order.

It's a scary thing, and those who simply make it political are cruel human beings....we are one country.

Sorry for seemingly becoming political, but I am hurting right now, and cannot understand those who do not see the hate around now, and seemingly nobody to console the country or bring us together. These are horrible things that did not need to happen, should not have happened, and I think would have been prevented if this country would stop the accusations, the lies the crass language. First reaction publicly was to blame the media....that is tough to swallow fir me, and you can delete my post, complain to the mods all you want. I fought for, worked for and love this country. I am proud also, but the world is wondering what we are doing.

You are not alone. And I agree, "they" will not fix this, only we the people can.

[Bucco]

“Divide et impera,” Julius Cesar

And the true Latin translation fits. Not the meaning given in general, but the true philosophy.

Are we saying goodbye to "E Pluribus Unum"

[anothersteve]

And the true Latin translation fits. Not the meaning given in general, but the true philosophy.

"

Yep.
Steve

[anothersteve]

Are we saying goodbye to "E Pluribus Unum"[/B]

Nope
Steve

[Taltarzac725]

NAMI Statement on Mass Shootings in Texas and Ohio | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness (https://www.nami.org/About-NAMI/NAMI-News/2019/NAMI-Statement-on-Mass-Shootings-in-Texas-and-Ohio?fbclid=IwAR2z6bTX4ajU4tHjVZUfjzJLaxMs08H90AOj MkKcG1Wqz19dxvVdcQmo6GM)

This should be read by anyone wanting to do something about stopping these mass shootings.

We all want an end to these horrific acts of violence. To achieve this, we need to find meaningful solutions to protect our communities from senseless violence and lasting trauma. We owe it to future generations to end this cycle for everyone, because the status quo is literally killing us.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

NAMI Statement on Mass Shootings in Texas and Ohio | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness (https://www.nami.org/About-NAMI/NAMI-News/2019/NAMI-Statement-on-Mass-Shootings-in-Texas-and-Ohio?fbclid=IwAR2z6bTX4ajU4tHjVZUfjzJLaxMs08H90AOj MkKcG1Wqz19dxvVdcQmo6GM)

This should be read by anyone wanted to do something about stopping these mass shootings.

Just remember - if "mental illness" was at the root of the epidemic of hate-fueled mass shootings, they wouldn't only be occuring with this frequency in the USA. It would be world wide.

Why? Because mental illness is not an American illness. It is a worldwide illness. Mental illness doesn't stop at our borders, or even at the edge of our continent.

It isn't happening with this frequency world wide. Therefore - mental illness cannot possibly be the cause, or even a primary trigger.

Science/medical research phrase: correlation does not equal causation.

[Polar Bear]

...It isn't happening with this frequency world wide. Therefore - mental illness cannot possibly be the cause, or even a primary trigger...
Waaaay overstated. “Cannot possibly...”.
That phrase is a red flag immediately. If such certainty related to major parts of this problem was accurate, it wouldn’t be the dilemma that it is.

Everybody has opinions regarding this difficult problem. It’s just important to remember that such statements are just that...opinions...regardless of how they are stated.

[fw102807]

Just remember - if "mental illness" was at the root of the epidemic of hate-fueled mass shootings, they wouldn't only be occuring with this frequency in the USA. It would be world wide.

Why? Because mental illness is not an American illness. It is a worldwide illness. Mental illness doesn't stop at our borders, or even at the edge of our continent.

It isn't happening with this frequency world wide. Therefore - mental illness cannot possibly be the cause, or even a primary trigger.

Science/medical research phrase: correlation does not equal causation.

It is untrue that the US is the only one with the problem and it is true that the US is a country with by far one of the largest populations which is also a huge factor.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/mass-shootings-by-country/

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It is untrue that the US is the only one with the problem and it is true that the US is a country with by far one of the largest populations which is also a huge factor.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/mass-shootings-by-country/

No one said the US is the "only one" with the problem. You're absolutely right though, we're not the only one with the problem.

But Japan has a much higher incident of mental illness, a larger population in a smaller area of real estate, and they have zero mass shootings in the same period of time that we have.

If mental illness is only a factor in the USA with regards to mass shooters, and mental illness occurs worldwide at even higher percentages, then mental illness cannot be a valid factor.

If it was, then you could much easier blame it on water consumption, or the phenomenon of men who wear long pants during certain portions of the year.

[GrumpyOldMan]

No one said the US is the "only one" with the problem. You're absolutely right though, we're not the only one with the problem.

But Japan has a much higher incident of mental illness, a larger population in a smaller area of real estate, and they have zero mass shootings in the same period of time that we have.

If mental illness is only a factor in the USA with regards to mass shooters, and mental illness occurs worldwide at even higher percentages, then mental illness cannot be a valid factor.

If it was, then you could much easier blame it on water consumption, or the phenomenon of men who wear long pants during certain portions of the year.

It would be inappropriate to group all mental illness into a single group to make those conclusions. There are thousands of forms of mental illness.

[Taltarzac725]

It would be inappropriate to group all mental illness into a single group to make those conclusions. There are thousands of forms of mental illness.

And about 1/5 of the US population had or has some kind of mental illness. Mental Health By the Numbers | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness (https://www.nami.org/learn-more/mental-health-by-the-numbers)

Depression, anxiety, addiction to various things, etc.

And America in 2019 is probably very hard on the mental well-being of just about anyone with any common sense and decency. These are scary times.

[Taltarzac725]

Tal, there are not words to console your grief even after the passing of time. Be strong

This was in late 2014. Thank You. About the same time as the loss of my younger brother due to long term alcohol addiction. Which IMHO is also a mental health problem.

[graciegirl]

comorbidity of mental illness and drug use - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=comorbidity+of+mental+illness+and+drug+us e&form=EDGHPT&qs=AS&cvid=bb3830b26cd24e71b97ca966da6229b0&refig=891a26730c6144189ef545d8dd1945f4&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AXK1c4IvZoNqPoPnS%21QRLOM3LdZkq3*YljrC6ZO4VUDx NqHr3f4DzyxPHuUIiKrRLIWn%21TN*xvusj%21ztZue6YrlyZN KfpFGILFwMdUXqtWLx&plvar=0&PC=DCTS)

There were approximately 40,000 gun deaths in U.S. in 2018.

There were approximately 70,000 deaths in U.S. from drug overdose in 2018.

The criteria for mental illness is very broad and may or may not include OCD, anxiety, ADHD and other illnesses not deemed as severe as other mental illnesses that may trigger criminal activity and hospitalization and long term treatment by a mental health specialist.

I don't think anyone, at this point can really say with authority what caused either of these young men to do what they did and what if anything that could have been done to stop it before it happened. I would like to know more about the families of the shooters, the home environment of the shooters. Did they rebel against what they were taught, or did they take on the family values? What made them SO ANGRY? What made them so cold hearted to take so many innocent lives of people they did not know as well as the one family member in the case of the Dayton shooter? I would like to know the "whole story" before I can decide what I think is the primary causes of these events and what if anything we as a government and a society can do to change things.

[Taltarzac725]

comorbidity of mental illness and drug use - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=comorbidity+of+mental+illness+and+drug+us e&form=EDGHPT&qs=AS&cvid=bb3830b26cd24e71b97ca966da6229b0&refig=891a26730c6144189ef545d8dd1945f4&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AXK1c4IvZoNqPoPnS%21QRLOM3LdZkq3*YljrC6ZO4VUDx NqHr3f4DzyxPHuUIiKrRLIWn%21TN*xvusj%21ztZue6YrlyZN KfpFGILFwMdUXqtWLx&plvar=0&PC=DCTS)

There were approximately 40,000 gun deaths in U.S. in 2018.

There were approximately 70,000 deaths in U.S. from drug overdose in 2018.

The criteria for mental illness is very broad and may or may not include OCD, anxiety, AHCD and other illnesses not deemed as severe as other mental illnesses that may trigger hospitalization and long term treatment by a mental health specialist.

I don't think anyone, at this point can really say with authority what caused either of these young men to do what they did and what if anything that could have been done to stop it before it happened. I would like to know more about the families of the shooters, the home environment of the shooters. Did they rebel against what they were taught, or did they take on the family values? What made them SO ANGRY? What made them so cold hearted to take so many innocent lives of people they did not know as well as the one family member in the case of the Dayton shooter? I would like to know the "whole story" before I can decide what I think is the primary causes of these events and what if anything we can do to change things.

Since one of these mass killers is still alive we will find out quite a lot.

I interviewed at the University of Texas at El Paso library for a law librarian position back in November or maybe early December of 2001. They paid to fly me back-and-forth and for a night at a hotel and a few meals.

I found the people of UTEP quite friendly and the city of El Paso was attractive.

I was only there about 24 hours or less than that. Did meet a bunch of librarians at UTEP and the UTEP President and other university administrators.

The University of Texas at El Paso does have a lot of Hispanics attending as well as in their staff.

[billethkid]

When causes are investigated looking at other countries the common denominator is often mental illness.

Be sure to observe what it is that is more prevalent in the USA but NOT in other countries. Like the openness of violence, rape, murder, mayhem, dismembering, etc in television, movies, games.

[Taltarzac725]

When causes are investigated looking at other countries the common denominator is often mental illness.

Be sure to observe what it is that is more prevalent in the USA but NOT in other countries. Like the openness of violence, rape, murder, mayhem, dismembering, etc in television, movies, games.

All of these countries have access to Hollywood movies and video games and the like.

Some of the foreign movies are even more violent than some of the Hollywood ones.

The problem is guns and access to them here in the United States and the NRA and their death grip on some.

[fw102807]

I read about a study many years ago in the prison system. The prisoners were asked why they had committed their crimes and the overwhelming answer was that they felt they had nothing to believe in and nothing to hope for so in essence they felt they had nothing to lose. I am not a gun advocate, I don't have one and I don't want one but don't think gun regulation is the solution. Nobody is going to convince me that walking into Walmart and killing innocent people is a sane act.

[seoulbrooks]

13 shot, 6 killed this weekend in Baltimore, including a 12-year-old boy.
No national media outrage.
Why is that?
🤔

[billethkid]

All of these countries have access to Hollywood movies and video games and the like.

Some of the foreign movies are even more violent than some of the Hollywood ones.

The problem is guns and access to them here in the United States and the NRA and their death grip on some.

"...what it is that is more prevalent in the USA but NOT in other countries..."

[Fredster]

13 shot, 6 killed this weekend in Baltimore, including a 12-year-old boy.
No national media outrage.
Why is that?
🤔

Because it wouldn’t fit someone’s agenda!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

"...what it is that is more prevalent in the USA but NOT in other countries..."

He answered the question:
The problem is guns and access to them here in the United States and the NRA and their death grip on some.

There are more answers too but it'll just get ugly on this forum if we give the actual answers - most of which everyone here already knows but chooses to ignore.

[Bogie Shooter]

Because it wouldn’t fit someone’s agenda!

Better to have an agenda and try to do something, than have no agenda and do nothing.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Better to have an agenda and try to do something, than have no agenda and do nothing.

In this, Bogie Shooter and I agree. I think that alone should be pretty indicative.

[Fredster]

Better to have an agenda and try to do something, than have no agenda and do nothing.

The agenda might not be addressing the root problem!

[manaboutown]

13 shot, 6 killed this weekend in Baltimore, including a 12-year-old boy.
No national media outrage.
Why is that?
🤔

That is not news but business as usual in Baltimore, Chicago, and some other cities.

News is a "Man bites dog" situation, a relatively rare and particularly outrageous event.

[Taltarzac725]

I read about a study many years ago in the prison system. The prisoners were asked why they had committed their crimes and the overwhelming answer was that they felt they had nothing to believe in and nothing to hope for so in essence they felt they had nothing to lose. I am not a gun advocate, I don't have one and I don't want one but don't think gun regulation is the solution. Nobody is going to convince me that walking into Walmart and killing innocent people is a sane act.

I was a student and then Student Director for Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners from 1987 to 1989 at the U of MN Law School. I was attached to Minnesota Correctional Facility-Stillwater. Probably handled about 40 cases myself or through students or via my co-Director.

Some of these prisoners had believed very much in something when they did their crimes. Often based on one of the Seven Deadly sins. Pride seemed to be the biggest and greed second. Lust and envy too. Not so much sloth. Nor gluttony. Anger played a big part though. Seven Deadly Sins (http://www.deadlysins.com/)

Some of these men had just done something stupid at the time and got caught. Like one stole some tools from a neighbor's garage. Worth a good amount of money though.

John Sandford's books are well done and have good portrayals of the criminal justice system in Minnesota. And his last covered Las Vegas and Los Angeles. John Sandford - The Official Website (http://www.johnsandford.org/)

[Bogie Shooter]

Better to have an agenda and try to do something, than have no agenda and do nothing.

In this, Bogie Shooter and I agree. I think that alone should be pretty indicative.

:)
And I might add you responded in two sentences. :ho:

[Midnight Cowgirl]

Better to have an agenda and try to do something, than have no agenda and do nothing.


The bottom line is that while there may be many agendas, up to this point NOTHING has been done. Nothing, as in zero!

[Aces4]

13 shot, 6 killed this weekend in Baltimore, including a 12-year-old boy.
No national media outrage.
Why is that?
������

Weekend shootings in Chicago:

7 killed, 46 wounded and at one point, a hospital stopped accepting patients briefly because they couldn’t keep up.

[New Englander]

13 shot, 6 killed this weekend in Baltimore, including a 12-year-old boy.
No national media outrage.
Why is that?
🤔

I'm racking my brain trying to figure it out.

[graciegirl]

The bottom line is that while there may be many agendas, up to this point NOTHING has been done. Nothing, as in zero!

What do you think should be done? It is almost impossible to predict who is going to go off.

I know of no one, no group, no political party, no philosophy that would ever want or encourage a mass shooting, and I know no festering hate against any race or group of immigrants although it has been suggested time and time again by the mainstream media in the past few days.

I see no evidence at all. And if you think that the back and forth over Baltimore is racist, then you are wrong. It is about a city that needs to be cleaned up, literally and figuratively. We have the lowest numbers of unemployment in decades. That is a very good way to help with poverty. New York cleaned up crime. Baltimore can do it too. The government needs to be cleaned up in Baltimore. That is not racist to say or to think.

[ColdNoMore]

The bottom line is that while there may be many agendas, up to this point NOTHING has been done. Nothing, as in zero!

It's pretty obvious, at least from one side, is that the "primary agenda" is to ensure that not one single change to current gun laws...ever occurs.

The 'mental illness' red herring is getting really old, given that we don't have any more cases of it per capita...than almost every other country on this planet.

Given that FACT, common scientific methods dictate that after eliminating all that is the same...you start looking at what is different.

And given that even someone with even a modicum of intelligence knows what that difference is, that is where the real fear from the gun-nuts...comes into play.

I personally know a few in the aforementioned group, who still lament the loss...of full auto weapons. :ohdear:

[Midnight Cowgirl]

I respectfully disagree.
I think anyone who has hatred to the extent that they feel like killing people in cold blood is mentally ill.
Hate and anger, or mentally ill - it doesn't really matter.
It's a sick, evil person who thinks it's their right to kill innocent people.
It somehow makes it worse when the evil person kills children.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet, Suharto, Pol Pot, Nero, the 1915 Armenian Genocide by the Turks, and a host of others from ancient to modern times come to mind.


I've given a lot of thought to these atrocious mass killings but still cannot believe all those who commit acts of violence on such a large scale are mentally ill.

Mental illness is a possibility on occasion, but I think the main reason for most mass killings is because of hate (prejudice), anger, seeking fame, jealousy, and ego.
These are the things I believe play the most important role in these murders.

Do you believe that the leaders named above were all mentally ill?
Do you believe that their officers and armies were all mentally ill? Of course not!

I rest my case.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Sad, another thread spiraling downward... just like our country because we don't seem to be able to have civil conversations any longer.

[Moderator]

Yes, this thread is spiraling downward. We have to delete 10 posts for every one that can remain.

The deleted posts have ventured too deep into political and parties, been outwardly nasty towards each other, grossly off topic, or simply meant to provoke inflammatory replies.

If this trend continues and we can't return to discuss the original topic in a civil, thoughtful manner this thread will be closed.

Moderator

[Polar Bear]

...Do you believe that the leaders named above were all mentally ill?
Do you believe that their officers and armies were all mentally ill? Of course not!

I rest my case.
Apples and oranges imho.

The killers we’re supposed to be talking about in this thread have no leader and have no army to direct. They come to insane...by every normal standard I can think of...conclusions regarding society and take action themselves, wielding their weapon themselves.

No comparison.

I rest my case.

[Bogie Shooter]

You agree that if you disagree with Talk of the Villages website policy or action of a staff member, you will not post public arguments or disagreements nor attempt to petition the owner/administration to change policy through posts, polls, email, PM or any other service found within the Talk of the Villages Website. If you disagree, you may respectfully email the ownership of Talk of the Villages.


So what is next?

[Aces4]

You agree that if you disagree with Talk of the Villages website policy or action of a staff member, you will not post public arguments or disagreements nor attempt to petition the owner/administration to change policy through posts, polls, email, PM or any other service found within the Talk of the Villages Website. If you disagree, you may respectfully email the ownership of Talk of the Villages.


So what is next?

Thank you for posting that, Bogie. Hopefully,THAT can be interpreted correctly!

[Taltarzac725]

I found this helpful when dealing with all the pain and suffering of late.

God pushes us to discover the right thing to do. I would look at the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5-7 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV)


"…God takes care of his own, even while they sleep."
(Psalm 127:2)
We are filled with worry and fear these days. We hear of the horrendous mass killings in Texas and Ohio. We see the plight of refugees at our border. And on and on. The news can certainly keep us up at night. We feel so helpless. But rest easy….the heavens do not stop when we fall asleep. God and his angels are on guard and working to provide for us all. We might not know the answers or what the future holds, but God does. All He asks from us? Spread as much kindness and love as we can to soften the blows of the world. Then you can fall asleep with a clear mind and leave the rest to Him. (Penny Timson, UCC Office Administrator)

"Sometimes our not doing allows something to be done for us and in us that is far more wonderful than we might accomplish on our own, with our striving and worry.
Even if we are not active, that doesn’t mean that nothing is being done. God is providing “for his beloved as they sleep.” Trust this. And sweet dreams.
Prayer: Grant to the weary, rest; to the anxious, calm; to the frightened, courage. And to all a good sleep. Amen." ("It’s Not All Up to You", Tony Robinson, Stillspeaking Devotional)

[graciegirl]

I've given a lot of thought to these atrocious mass killings but still cannot believe all those who commit acts of violence on such a large scale are mentally ill.

Mental illness is a possibility on occasion, but I think the main reason for most mass killings is because of hate (prejudice), anger, seeking fame, jealousy, and ego.
These are the things I believe play the most important role in these murders.

Do you believe that the leaders named above were all mentally ill?
Do you believe that their officers and armies were all mentally ill? Of course not!

I rest my case.

They are bad people. They are BAD people who have made choices that the overwhelming majority of people we have all known all of our lives would not make. I will be eighty in November, and I have NEVER in all the years I have taught, and all of the thousands of people I have met and interacted with EVER had any glimpse of this kind of thinking. It is wrong to continue to jab and hurt and anger, because every person has a breaking point; certainly not to kill a lot of strangers but to be very, out of control angry. That is why my grandmother said it was wise to NOT have a gun. She said that sometimes we can get very angry and out of control. Everyone inside their hearts and souls know this. Encouraging division and hate and name calling is not good for any of us. Looking down on people who truly do have mental illness is not helpful. Believing that we have the only right way to think about things is short sighted. We must be open to valid new information and to change and stop saying things that make people terribly hurt and angry. When we get angry, we all tend to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Aces4]

They are bad people. They are BAD people who have made choices that the overwhelming majority of people we have all known all of our lives would not make. I will be eighty in November, and I have NEVER in all the years I have taught, and all of the thousands of people I have met and interacted with EVER had any glimpse of this kind of thinking. It is wrong to continue to jab and hurt and anger, because every person has a breaking point; certainly not to kill a lot of strangers but to be very, out of control angry. That is why my grandmother said it was wise to NOT have a gun. She said that sometimes we can get very angry and out of control. Everyone inside their hearts and souls know this. Encouraging division and hate is not good for any of us. Looking down on people who truly do have mental illness is not helpful. Believing that we have the only right way to think about things is short sighted. We must be open to valid new information and to change and stop saying things that make people terribly hurt and angry.

Mental illness is the brain not processing in a proper fashion, in nutshell. No one is looking down on mental illness, we’re stating it is a factor and advocating for the financial support and facilities for this illness.

Until one has a family member suffering with this affliction, they have no idea how little financial help and medical support is available for these patients.

[Taltarzac725]

Mental illness is the brain not processing in a proper fashion, in nutshell. No one is looking down on mental illness, we’re stating it is a factor and advocating for the financial support and facilities for this illness.

Until one has a family member suffering with this affliction, they have no idea how little financial help and medical support is available for these patients.

1/4 Americans deal with mental illness every year. You may be writing about severe mental illness problems but these are also a lot more common than some think.

And I can think of people who look like they have severe mental problems judging from the fruits of their labors. False prophets usually would be seen by normal people as mentally ill. Hitler sure looks like he had severe mental health problems. And he was a false prophet.