Teachers salaries.

[Ladygolfer93]

Spent my career in public education, much of it in Fl and some in Lake and Sumter. I think there is some mistake about the salary schedule, not sure and not trying to take an "I know attitude", but if they have actually gone "backward" on the schedule since I retired, you must have been looking at the B.S./B.A. level which, in most public school districts in most states, stops anywhere between the 12 to the 15th year. There are few teachers who are content to spend an additional 15, even 20 years at a "bottom out" level. This is intentional on the part of the residents of communities, school board members, and administrators, to encourage teachers to not end their education at the bachelor's level and 30 years down the road have not added to their skills and education. Having said that, of course the "best" teachers in all the districts where I was privileged to be a building and district central administrator, were not always the highest paid. It is exactly like those of us who have spend out careers in school administration know, the number of dollars spent per student (past a base level of course), does not translate to an outstanding education. When I worked as a principal and central office administrator, when zero based budgeting was "imposed" on us, the truth is, money was no longer foolishly spent. Just some thoughts. Interesting that those in the most affluent schools and districts are turning against "bookless" schools where children spend the school hours the same as home and recreation hours; staring at screens. The public CAN have fabulous schools, for free, NO, but most outside the education community have no idea how much can really be accomplished with actually a minimum budget. Food for thought from 40 years experience at every level, elementary school to inner city high school principal, to central office administrator, to university professor, money is not what needs to change. Hope this sparks thoughts, not nasty remarks and hateful statements without thinking..... everyone, even "poor" communities can have exceptional schools.

[graciegirl]

The moderator asked that we not discuss this topic in another thread so I have started this thread.

Jump in with Statistics. I will try to find fair and valid and recent ones.

Here's the first one;

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com (https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/)

According to this one Jazuela, there is not a lot of difference between Connecticut and Florida.

[Chatbrat]

Every morning, I look @ several newspapers online-one of them is the Morris County Daily Record, its states that in NJ teachers salaries vary very differently from town to town, there are over 700 different school districts in NJ--where I lived the Median was $88 K, with the high being $107--in NJ teachers are allowed to bank unused sick days, it adds up to a nice severance package upon retirement also teachers get extra pay for coaching and other duties

[theorem painter]

I volunteered at a new Habitat for Humanity house in Wildwood in the spring that was being built for a Wildwood teacher and her daughter. Her income was so low that she qualified. It is pathetic.

[graciegirl]

Here is quality of education by state according to U.S. News;
Access Denied (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education)


However as Chatbrat says; Quality in public education varies a lot within the State.

[graciegirl]

I volunteered at a new Habitat for Humanity house in Wildwood in the spring that was being built for a Wildwood teacher and her daughter. Her income was so low that she qualified. It is pathetic.

teacher salaries in wildwood, florida - Bing (https://www.bing.com/search?q=teacher+salaries+in+wildwood%2C+florida&form=EDGHPT&qs=PF&cvid=5d2d8ee83c0b46b4a9905779dc50b396&refig=8c1fd05a9cd34e8ab8b8c0834e09323b&cc=US&setlang=en-US&elv=AXK1c4IvZoNqPoPnS%21QRLOO13vksAdWUtdwxh8K8KIpO q5yhBgHnYzzRjD*%21IaQ8BRe2MuE4oueA7aW*SwGPdTUaKeXk kwbVeyC6iAX0nlmC&plvar=0&PC=DCTS)

[Chatbrat]

Not just teachers, Florida salaries are @ least 30 years behind what they were in NJ, --when you go to sell a house in NJ one of the most important factors is"the school report" if a school district is excellent it drives real estate values--,go to Zillow & look up Chatham Boro & Chatham Twp- in 1985 a house that was sold for $165,000 is now valued for $985000--people who move there don't have to pay for a private school

[dewilson58]

Hi All !!!!




Does anyone have a suggestion as to how "we" determine a fair wage?? What's a formula which would work, district by district??


There should be a way to determine a fair starting wage and index by CoL by district, but I've never seen a proposal.


Just wondering, not helpful.

[stan the man]

Every morning, I look @ several newspapers online-one of them is the Morris County Daily Record, its states that in NJ teachers salaries vary very differently from town to town, there are over 700 different school districts in NJ--where I lived the Median was $88 K, with the high being $107--in NJ teachers are allowed to bank unused sick days, it adds up to a nice severance package upon retirement also teachers get extra pay for coaching and other duties

Not bad for a part time job ....Also negotiated is a calendar work year that limits teachers to 181 work days. Most Americans work 245 days per year meaning teachers get nearly 13 weeks more vacation time than the typical US worker. Michael Robertson: The Myth of the Underpaid Teacher (http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=357)
Thank you for bring this topic to my attention

[ColdNoMore]

It's not a stretch to say that the future of a country's success...lies in the quality of their teachers and school systems.

Research China's latest push to increase their higher education systems and their buying up of foreign universities...as well as building more of their own.

I am always amazed, and disheartened/disgusted, at those who think most teachers here in the US...already make too much money. :oops:

That a lot of blue-collared, mostly HS educated, often make so much more than those we trust to guide and teach our children & grandchildren to become successes in the future...tells me something is really wrong.

[Chatbrat]

Teachers get credit for educating students; however,in affluent comities were both parents have college degrees,IMHO they are the real reason for the teachers success--In Baltimore there is not a single HS that has ONE student who is up to passing the state requirement for math proficiency

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The moderator asked that we not discuss this topic in another thread so I have started this thread.

Jump in with Statistics. I will try to find fair and valid and recent ones.

Here's the first one;

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com (https://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/)

According to this one Jazuela, there is not a lot of difference between Connecticut and Florida.

There's a HUGE difference. Maybe you were reading the wrong states. You're definitely reading the wrong website.

If you want to know salaries, you have to go to the actual district's official website, not some aggregate that collects data from all kinds of sources and doesn't fact-check.

Sumter County's schedule of salaries for public education teachers for last year (2018-2019) is here:

http://assets.sumter.k12.fl.us/HumanResources/SCEA-Salary-Schedule.pdf

Teachers starting with a BS degree start at $40,875. The most they can earn, after 25 years of service, is $59,248. If they get a Master's degree they can tack another $2,667 on that, and if they're a specialist or have a PhD in Education they can add $3,667.

There are incentives for them to work in underserved schools - but the incentives are just a bump up the existing schedule, the max doesn't change, they just reach it sooner because they start out further up the pay level.

Compare to Waterbury, CT, a valley town with some fairly tony areas, and a lot of underserved areas. Their contract is here, the schedule of salaries is on page 69: https://www.waterbury.k12.ct.us/userfiles/4/my%20files/2016-2019%20wta-boe%20agreement%20(v.final).pdf?id=548457

Teachers starting with a Bachelor's degree enter at $43,110. Not much difference there. But after only 12 years of service they cap out at $77,369. That's almost a $20k per year difference, and they achieve it after 12 years rather than 25 years.

A PhD starts at $52,491 and caps at $93,365, which is more than $30,000 higher than the max cap for Sumter County Florida. And again, that's after 12 years, not 25.

They also get significant incentives, such as an additional $5,542 if they double as an assistant Baseball coach with a JV team for the whole season.

Florida usually ranks in the bottom 5-10 in public school quality. Connecticut is consistently in the top 10 and often makes it to the top 5.

Florida public schools are horrible, their teachers are poorly paid, well under the national average, and their systems are given insufficient funding to educate their kids. Connecticut schools typically perform very well, their teachers are well paid, always much higher than the national average, and the systems are given funding that can cover at least the minimum costs. Even when they don't, the teachers don't have to get a second job to afford to pick up extra pencils for their students.

That doesn't mean you should just randomly pour money into schools and expect them to suddenly become good schools. But proper training, higher standards of education, comprehensive education, providing a safe, effective, productive education that isn't focused on "graduation" but instead is focused on "kids who know more stuff" costs money.

So many school systems only care about how many kids graduate, that they're teaching them how to pass tests and not teaching them anything they actually need to know, in order to succeed in life after school.

Connecticut has entire programs dedicated to internships and civil service, social programs - all things the students are required to participate in, if they want to graduate. They are required to "be good citizens" in addition to learning how to read and write.

[graciegirl]

It's not a stretch to say that the future of a country's success...lies in the quality of their teachers and school systems.

Research China's latest push to increase their higher education systems and their buying up of foreign universities...as well as building more of their own.

I am always amazed, and disheartened/disgusted, at those who think most teachers here in the US...already make too much money. :oops:

That a lot of blue-collared, mostly HS educated, often make so much more than those we trust to guide and teach our children & grandchildren to become successes in the future...tells me something is really wrong.

Many blue collared, mostly HS educated people are successful because they learned the same things in another place...LIFE.

Of course most of us value education, but most of us also value knowledge, no matter how it is acquired. Disclaimer. I have never failed to vote for a school levy.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Not bad for a part time job ....Also negotiated is a calendar work year that limits teachers to 181 work days. Most Americans work 245 days per year meaning teachers get nearly 13 weeks more vacation time than the typical US worker. Michael Robertson: The Myth of the Underpaid Teacher (http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=357)
Thank you for bring this topic to my attention

It is not a part time job. It is a full time job with mandatory overtime. That 181 days is days that the teacher spends in the classroom, not the days the teacher works.

Teachers are expected to work outside the classroom on lesson plans, grading papers, continuing education, mandatory upkeep on certifications, scheduling, parent-teacher meetings, field trips. That "vacation" time usually results in being little more than the same 4 weeks that most full-time people get after they've been working for a few years in the same company.

Except teachers work MUCH more than 7.5 hours per day, and they are responsible for the lives of children. School children spend more time with teachers than they spend with their own parents, in most cases.

[CFrance]

Here is quality of education by state according to U.S. News;
Access Denied (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education)


However as Chatbrat says; Quality in public education varies a lot within the State.
I can attest to the superior quality of New Jersey's school system, and the way they tracked and team-taught their students back when we lived in Morris County, NJ (Randolph School District). When we moved to Michigan, which you might note doesn't even make the top 15 on your list, our eighth grader was a year ahead of his class on every subject. We eventually took him out of that school system and sent him back East to a private school.

When the teachers in Randolph struck, we parents went to bat for them. They were excellent teachers and had an individual plan for each student. They deserved every cent they got and then some.

[Chatbrat]

When I retired back in 95, always wanted to be a teacher-well tried it for 6 weeks, could not believe what was being taught as HS math-gave up--a real eye opener was , when I found out that most teachers in the schoolt,I tried out sent their kids to private schools

A final thought, if you worked in Fl, in your career-do you think you would be able to retire when you did and could you afford to live in TV

[graciegirl]

North Haven School District Average Teacher Salary & How to Become a Teacher (https://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/connecticut/teacher-salary-in-north-haven-school-district/)

Sumter Average Teacher Salary & How to Become a Teacher (https://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/florida/teacher-salary-in-sumter/)

You are right Jazuela. On this one it is 44k vs. 55k for average salary. I have heard wonderful things about Connecticut Schools and Florida Schools not so much. Very grateful to be from Ohio and raised our kids and saw our grandkids go through the wonderful Lakota Local School District.

Our grandson who started college with 13 advanced placement credits said college was easier than high school.

[tophcfa]

Given that Rory Mcllroy just won $15,000,000 for winning the Fed Ex Cup, it appears our society values golf way more than just about all other professions, including teachers? If you have not already done so, get your Grandkids a set of clubs for their next birthday!

[Velvet]

Hi All !!!!




Does anyone have a suggestion as to how "we" determine a fair wage?? What's a formula which would work, district by district??


There should be a way to determine a fair starting wage and index by CoL by district, but I've never seen a proposal.


Just wondering, not helpful.

Just a thought, fair wage should be tied to the cost of living in the area. In Hawaii the teachers’ salaries are so low that Hawaii cannot keep their teachers. People leave this paradise because they can’t even minimally live there.

[Velvet]

When I retired back in 95, always wanted to be a teacher-well tried it for 6 weeks, could not believe what was being taught as HS math-gave up--a real eye opener was , when I found out that most teachers in the schoolt,I tried out sent their kids to private schools

A final thought, if you worked in Fl, in your career-do you think you would be able to retire when you did and could you afford to live in TV

One school does not a school system make, perhaps the teacher profession lost a great one in you.

I do remember my calculus teacher in high school. We had a double 40 minute class. He came in, put incomprehensible math on the board, asked “Any questions?” If you asked a question of any kind he belittled you or made fun of you to make sure there were no questions. Then after 5 minutes he left to go to the staff room or something for the rest of the time. We as a group tried to figure out the math problems from the assignment, from the text book, helped each other, encouraged each other. Those who were applying for university (I went into engineering) had to have A or higher achievement in the national test for calculus to be considered for admission.

Yes, there are some bad apples among teachers too.

[vintageogauge]

Just a tad of topic but a question that has been bothering me. As we all know there has been a ton of building in Wildwood with every homeowner and commercial building owner paying school taxes as well as Wildwood city taxes but no additional children going to the schools to speak of. Why does it take volunteers to paint the Junior High School football facilities? Where is this tax money going, I don't recall seeing any new schools being built or raises for teachers? I don't mind paying taxes for schools even without having children reside with us but it would be nice to know that the money is being spent for the betterment of the children.

[EdFNJ]

in NJ teachers are allowed to bank unused sick days, it adds up to a nice severance package upon retirement also teachers get extra pay for coaching and other duties "Banked sick day payment at retirement" has to do with the contract negotiated with the local school district as well and not the State (in NJ). In our school district my wife had many hundreds of "banked" sick days which we REALLY thought she could get when she left. She rarely ever used one unlike a lot of employees who took every one every year. When she retired after ~35 years she received 50% payment for only 100 of them. Not quite the "windfall" for barely ever calling in sick for 35 years. She "donated" what was left to the "district sickday pool" where employees with serious illnesses and ran out of sick days could draw from them to which she and others donated over the years as well. Again, all based on the local school district contract negotiations not just living in NJ. The variance between districts with regard to benefits and "perks" is quite high. The only thing I believe that was fully controlled by just the State was the actual pension amounts and the medical benefits upon retirement.

[retiredguy123]

This argument about teacher pay has been going on forever and will not be solved here. Here are my opinions:

I don't like teacher unions or tenure. You should be able to fire a bad teacher.
Teacher salaries are fine. If you don't want the job, get another one. If they pay more in Connecticut or New Jersey, move there.
Higher pay should be based on better results, but, over the years, I have not seen better results in the schools. And, too much money goes to administrators.
As compared to most full time jobs, teaching is a part time job. Always has been.
Rory Mcilroy was not paid $15 million by the taxpayers.

[graciegirl]

This argument about teacher pay has been going on forever and will not be solved here. Here are my opinions:

I don't like teacher unions or tenure. You should be able to fire a bad teacher.
Teacher salaries are fine. If you don't want the job, get another one. If they pay more in Connecticut or New Jersey, move there.
Higher pay should be based on better results, but, over the years, I have not seen better results in the schools. And, too much money goes to administrators.
As compared to most full time jobs, teaching is a part time job. Always has been.
Rory Mcilroy was not paid $15 million by the taxpayers.

I am seeing a lot I agree with here.

[Velvet]

If teaching is a part time job, why do so many teacher suffer burn out and have to leave their chosen profession? Stress level is just under those of surgeons.

Tenure was introduced at universities to insure academic freedom. That you cannot be fired by a predominantly left leaning economic department, for example, because you have conservative views.

Unions seem to be best in small amounts. Unionizing the workforce say around 30% of the total labor force in a country, ensures better working conditions, higher than that it becomes protectionist and worker entitlement progressively. Below 30% encourages slave labor.

[Velvet]

Someone mentioned merit pay, ie. pay for student performance. Let me say why I don’t think it is a good idea (at least in elementary schools). A teacher does not work alone. One is good at math, one is good in music. Our school had an outstanding music teacher and we won all the competitions from choir, to boy’s quartet etc etc. We (the other teachers) got the uniforms, bused the kids to music performances, looked after all the paperwork necessary so the music teacher could concentrate on composing and teaching only. That was part of the reason why we were the best in our district. We pulled together. Another example was sports teams. One person taught the kids but the rest of us helped him with his regular class. Another is specialist, I was good in math, taught my colleague’s class too and she was great with language, she taught my class too in that area.

And then, student performance is absolutely related to student IQ. If teachers were paid merit pay they could demand that no student be placed with them who did not meet a certain level of IQ.

[retiredguy123]

Teaching is a part time job because they work fewer hours per day, get more holidays and breaks, and have most of the summer off, as compared to a full time worker who is on the job about 2080 hours per year, except for a few holidays and a couple of weeks vacation. Some teachers claim to spend extra hours after the school day, but, that time is not clearly defined, monitored, or mandated, and I have known teachers who do not spend very much time after the regular hours. If they burn out, they are probably in the wrong profession. My opinion.

[Velvet]

Teaching is a part time job because they work fewer hours per day, get more holidays and breaks, and have most of the summer off, as compared to a full time worker who is on the job about 2080 hours per year, except for a few holidays and a couple of weeks vacation. Some teachers claim to spend extra hours after the school day, but, that time is not clearly defined, monitored, or mandated, and I have known teachers who do not spend very much time after the regular hours. If they burn out, they are probably in the wrong profession. My opinion.

I am sorry that this is the public perception. In general, it is inaccurate.

However, there are teachers who try to take advantage and that deadwood needs to be trashed.

[Ben Franklin]

When I retired, I wanted to give back what I had learned in business. I went to a large meeting of people who were interested in becoming teachers. The speaker told us, that, if we were serious, we should all spend at least 5 days following a teacher around every class they taught. She then said, "and if you don't feel a need to see a psychologist after those 5 days, then teaching might be for you." I then spoke with a childhood friend who taught at a University, and he said, the biggest problem was that the kids weren't motivated, and blamed the parents for their lack of parenthood in raising their children. Obviously, teaching wasn't for me, but I came to realize that teachers should be paid much more.

[Velvet]

The ones who burn out are the ones usually who give their all to the profession and are not supported adequately. For most teachers, teaching is a calling, not a job.

[retiredguy123]

I am sorry that this is the public perception. In general, it is inaccurate.

However, there are teachers who try to take advantage and that deadwood needs to be trashed.
Florida defines a school year as being 900 hours of class time. That would equate to only about 112 eight hour work days. Most people who work full time jobs can only charge for the time that they are actually working. No wonder there is a "perception" that teaching is a part time job.

[Velvet]

Yes, but classroom time is only a fraction of the work. If you have any doubts, please volunteer for a short time in any elementary class. All kinds of help is usually appreciated. You need to prepare for classroom time, much as a performer needs to prepare for the stage. Should we be paying say, Cher, by the hours she spends on stage?

[Wiserbud47]

Florida defines a school year as being 900 hours of class time. That would equate to only about 112 eight hour work days. Most people who work full time jobs can only charge for the time that they are actually working. No wonder there is a "perception" that teaching is a part time job.

Some people always seem have a negative comment about teachers work schedules and salaries. I believe it is based on jealousy and the lack of knowledge as to what is expected of a teacher today. They really have no respect for teachers. The salaries in FL and the Charter School are very low for a person who must have at least a 4 year college degree and have passed State exams in their field. To think a person could only reach $59,000 after 25 years in FL (less in the Charter School) is disgraceful. I just had a teacher retire from my department on Long Island, NY after 32 years with a Masters Degree and they were earning $144,000. The people in that district are not rich, but they want a good school system and that means paying the teachers well. They appreciate their teachers. They don't count how many hours a year the teacher "clocks in".

[Number 10 GI]

Teachers aren't the only workers who put in extra hours. In the army my normal day was 10 hours and sometimes 12. When we went to the field it was 24 hour a day until the training exercise was over which could run as long as 30 days. No we didn't stay awake for 24 hours straight but you only got about 4-6 hours of sleep a night. Check the pay for a soldier, no where near the starting salary for a teacher. My wife worked in the cash management section for a very large corporation. The salaried people were expected to put in 50-60 hours a week and most took work home at night. Even on vacation they had to respond to e-mails and usually took work with them. A lot of the salaries were about what a teacher makes. Prison guards work in extremely dangerous and stressful jobs for far less than a teacher makes. Many of them have to work double shifts due to manpower shortages or replacing sick guards. Police officers in smaller cities or towns also perform dangerous and stressful work, perform required overtime for pay less than a teacher. Many police officer moonlight as security guards to supplement their income. My nephew, a blue collar high school educated peon, works as a mechanic. He routinely puts in 10 - 12 hour days working in an unairconditioned and a poorly heated shop that is miserable in the summer and winter in the midwest. At the end of the day the pain in his feet and back make it difficult for him to sleep at night. He makes good money, more than most teachers, but he earns every penny of it because of the work environment and the fact that he is a hard working, skilled and certified mechanic. There are a lot of professions that are stressful and require long work hours and pay no better than teachers.

[retiredguy123]

Some people always seem have a negative comment about teachers work schedules and salaries. I believe it is based on jealousy and the lack of knowledge as to what is expected of a teacher today. They really have no respect for teachers. The salaries in FL and the Charter School are very low for a person who must have at least a 4 year college degree and have passed State exams in their field. To think a person could only reach $59,000 after 25 years in FL (less in the Charter School) is disgraceful. I just had a teacher retire from my department on Long Island, NY after 32 years with a Masters Degree and they were earning $144,000. The people in that district are not rich, but they want a good school system and that means paying the teachers well. They appreciate their teachers. They don't count how many hours a year the teacher "clocks in".
My comments were not intended to be negative. I'm just doing the math. Teachers constantly claim that they have a full time job. I disagree. If teachers want to have a full time job, then, yes, they should "clock in" the hours like other full time workers. Then, there would be no argument about whether they have a full or part time job. But, I have known teachers who didn't do any work outside of the classroom.

[Velvet]

Let me give another example, in rural India some places cannot pay their teachers adequately for them to live on. How the teacher survives is by taking the children, half the class time, to work the teacher’s fields. One of my students came from such a place.
We were at one point talking about what is a fair wage, I think it should be one related to the cost of living in the area.

[Velvet]

My comments were not intended to be negative. I'm just doing the math. Teachers constantly claim that they have a full time job. I disagree. If teachers want to have a full time job, then, yes, they should "clock in" the hours like other full time workers. Then, there would be no argument about whether they have a full or part time job. But, I have known teachers who didn't do any work outside of the classroom.

That could be done, like lawyers charge by the hour etc, teacher’s could do the same. How much overtime do you think an average teacher might get?

[retiredguy123]

That could be done, like lawyers charge by the hour etc, teacher’s could do the same. How much overtime do you think an average teacher might get?
Well, if they are currently full time workers, then, apparently, they are already being paid for more than two times the actual time (900 hours) that they spend in class. So, I guess the overtime would start from there. I would be happy to pay for overtime that is required as long as it can documented, verified, and proven to benefit the students.

[Velvet]

Would lawyers do that for you? To that extent so would teachers, and you’d probably get the same type of people too.

The teaching profession is one of the oldest, and practiced internationally, pretty well everywhere. If you have a better solution than what we have so far, many people would be interested.

[retiredguy123]

I will say that I have a higher opinion of teachers than of lawyers. And, I would never ever agree to pay a lawyer by the hour.

[graciegirl]

The ones who burn out are the ones usually who give their all to the profession and are not supported adequately. For most teachers, teaching is a calling, not a job.

I believe what you just said with all my heart.

[Wiserbud47]

I will give you an example of another profession that some may think do not deserve a full salary because they work "part-time". I have a young friend that I helped get through nursing school here in FL, but she does not yet have her 4 year degree. She was immediately hired in a training program that was completely paid for and she also received a salary. After a few months, she was hired full-time in Ocala. She works 3 days a week and is off 4 days a week. She also gets vacation, personal days and sick days. She works a maximum of 144 days a year and the starting salary was $75,000. Part-time job? No! It's what she accomplishes while she is working that matters. Some people work 250 days a year and accomplish almost nothing. If you or your child (or grandchild) had a special teacher that made a difference in your life, you do not care how many days they worked a year. The same holds true with nurses.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Florida defines a school year as being 900 hours of class time. That would equate to only about 112 eight hour work days. Most people who work full time jobs can only charge for the time that they are actually working. No wonder there is a "perception" that teaching is a part time job.

Again, since you didn't absorb it the first time: that is CLASS time. Teachers are REQUIRED to do work outside the classroom. It's not an option. They are REQUIRED to grade papers, attend parent-teacher meetings, arrange field trips, maintain their certifications which requires them to keep going to school, at their OWN expense. They are REQUIRED to create daily and weekly lesson plans, attend staff-wide meetings. They are REQUIRED to come to school and be ready to start their day before the homeroom bell rings, and they are REQUIRED to remain until after the end of school bell rings.

They are also REQUIRED to prepare the new school year's summary plan for their classes (all of them, most teachers don't teach only one set of 15-20 students). They are also REQUIRED to very carefully check every single student's personal file to look out for red flags such as allergies, medic alerts, behavioral problems, serious issues that would require special care that don't qualify for "special needs."

They are required to do ALL of these things outside the classroom. The actual classroom time may well be 900 hours. But that is not all the work they are required to do.

[Number 10 GI]

Again, since you didn't absorb it the first time: that is CLASS time. Teachers are REQUIRED to do work outside the classroom. It's not an option. They are REQUIRED to grade papers, attend parent-teacher meetings, arrange field trips, maintain their certifications which requires them to keep going to school, at their OWN expense. They are REQUIRED to create daily and weekly lesson plans, attend staff-wide meetings. They are REQUIRED to come to school and be ready to start their day before the homeroom bell rings, and they are REQUIRED to remain until after the end of school bell rings.

They are also REQUIRED to prepare the new school year's summary plan for their classes (all of them, most teachers don't teach only one set of 15-20 students). They are also REQUIRED to very carefully check every single student's personal file to look out for red flags such as allergies, medic alerts, behavioral problems, serious issues that would require special care that don't qualify for "special needs."

They are required to do ALL of these things outside the classroom. The actual classroom time may well be 900 hours. But that is not all the work they are required to do.

There are a whole lot of jobs that require as much or more effort on the employees part for the same or less pay than a teacher. No one has a gun at the head of teachers forcing them to work. If the job is too much find another line of work. Teachers are paid at what the market will bear, just like all other jobs.

[GoPacers]

There are a whole lot of jobs that require as much or more effort on the employees part for the same or less pay than a teacher. No one has a gun at the head of teachers forcing them to work. If the job is too much find another line of work. Teachers are paid at what the market will bear, just like all other jobs.

And just like all other jobs you largely get what you pay for. Do you want the plumber who makes $15/hr to run plumbing in your new designer home or the one who makes $50/hr? How about having your heart bypass surgery performed by the surgeon who makes $50K/year vs. the surgeon who makes $400K/year? Why not just pay teachers minimum wage - we'll still have plenty of teachers.

The old saying "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind here. Teachers are the front line when it comes to helping the younger generation survive. In fact, in many school districts teachers have to overcome inept parents in addition to administrative challenges to have any chance of educating today's youth.

I do agree that our education system needs a lot of attention and improvement but exhorbitant teacher's salaries are nowhere near the number one problem.

[retiredguy123]

And just like all other jobs you largely get what you pay for. Do you want the plumber who makes $15/hr to run plumbing in your new designer home or the one who makes $50/hr? How about having your heart bypass surgery performed by the surgeon who makes $50K/year vs. the surgeon who makes $400K/year? Why not just pay teachers minimum wage - we'll still have plenty of teachers.

The old saying "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind here. Teachers are the front line when it comes to helping the younger generation survive. In fact, in many school districts teachers have to overcome inept parents in addition to administrative challenges to have any chance of educating today's youth.

I do agree that our education system needs a lot of attention and improvement but exhorbitant teacher's salaries are nowhere near the number one problem.
I think we are already paying more per student for education then almost every other country. And, I have never heard anyone say that teacher pay is "exhorbitant". But, as long as I can remember, I have heard teachers complaining about being underpaid. However, they knew what teachers made before they decided to become teachers. If they wanted to make more money, they should have chosen another profession. So, I wish they would stop complaining about the pay. In my opinion, higher pay is not going to yield better results.

[Number 10 GI]

And just like all other jobs you largely get what you pay for. Do you want the plumber who makes $15/hr to run plumbing in your new designer home or the one who makes $50/hr? How about having your heart bypass surgery performed by the surgeon who makes $50K/year vs. the surgeon who makes $400K/year? Why not just pay teachers minimum wage - we'll still have plenty of teachers.

The old saying "penny wise and pound foolish" comes to mind here. Teachers are the front line when it comes to helping the younger generation survive. In fact, in many school districts teachers have to overcome inept parents in addition to administrative challenges to have any chance of educating today's youth.

I do agree that our education system needs a lot of attention and improvement but exhorbitant teacher's salaries are nowhere near the number one problem.

All those professions you mention are paid at what the market will bear. A heart surgeon at $50K a year, please! Use realistic facts not hyperbole.

[GoPacers]

All those professions you mention are paid at what the market will bear. A heart surgeon at $50K a year, please! Use realistic facts not hyperbole.

No, they are not all paid at what the market will bear. Not all professions operate in a free market. That is fact, not hyperbole.

The earlier point was intended to be hyperbole - thank you for noticing and reinforcing the point of my comment. :MOJE_whot:

[Number 10 GI]

No, they are not all paid at what the market will bear. Not all professions operate in a free market. That is fact, not hyperbole.

The earlier point was intended to be hyperbole - thank you for noticing and reinforcing the point of my comment. :MOJE_whot:

All professions operate in a free market. If the pay isn't sufficient the employer will raise the salary to attract the people necessary. Even the government will raise the pay level to keep and attract employees. Colleges keep cranking out teachers every year and the majority of them find employment in that profession, so the pay must be sufficient.

Government employees, which most teachers are, receive benefits that exceed what non-government workers receive. Pensions, generous sick leave that can be saved and turned in for money, medical coverage, generous vacation time, and tenure. All that costs money and is figured into the offered salary. Name me a non-government job that offers tenure, there isn't one. Job security comes at a price.

The only thing proven by your hyperbole is that you don't have a logical argument.

[tophcfa]

All professions operate in a free market. If the pay isn't sufficient the employer will raise the salary to attract the people necessary. Even the government will raise the pay level to keep and attract employees. Colleges keep cranking out teachers every year and the majority of them find employment in that profession, so the pay must be sufficient.

Government employees, which most teachers are, receive benefits that exceed what non-government workers receive. Pensions, generous sick leave that can be saved and turned in for money, medical coverage, generous vacation time, and tenure. All that costs money and is figured into the offered salary. Name me a non-government job that offers tenure, there isn't one. Job security comes at a price.

Agree with the above post, except that not all professions operate in a free market. Only professions that are not bound by labor unions operate in a truly free market.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Agree with the above post, except that not all professions operate in a free market. Only professions that are not bound by labor unions operate in a truly free market.

...which puts teachers right out of the equation, since they are bound by labor unions.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, teachers become teachers because they have a calling for teaching. Years ago, teachers in some states were earning decent pay. But they never got raises. Fourteen years later, they are still earning what they were earning 14 years ago. They still want to teach. Their certifications are in the states they started in, they can't afford to just up and move to a better paying state. Why not? Because - they aren't getting paid enough to just leave. They might own property and be paying a mortgage. They might be in a lease where they can't just walk out.

Some of them are already working two, and even three jobs. They're not trying to get rich. They're trying to pay the bills. They want to be teachers. And kids in underpaying districts are the ones losing out, because some of the better teachers ARE burning out and leaving the profession, or moving to better paying districts.

This isn't news, it's not hyperbole. I guess some of you don't remember the strikes that have occurred in several states in the past year. Do you really think it's because they wanted to pay off their Mercedes? They WANT to teach. It's why they became teachers. But they can't afford to be teachers anymore, because the school systems they're in are refusing to pay them more. The town officials are refusing to approve higher budgets, and some of them are refusing to even propose higher budgets.

That has nothing to do with what the market will bear. It has everything to do with politics, and promises by politicians to keep costs down, at the expense of the children who live in their districts.

[Fraugoofy]

Not all states have teacher unions... Wisconsin does not. This happened in 2011 with the passing of Act 10 under Governor Scott Walker.

Our pension is a match fund. We pay 5% and it is matched by the school district.

Starting teacher salaries are about $40,000 a year. A manager at Taco Bell makes about $34,000 a year and can do this with a high school diploma.

Many Wisconsin teachers have not had a raise in eight years. Not a dime.

There is a teacher shortage in Wisconsin. I am not surprised.

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

[Packer Fan]

You obviously have never spent much time around a teacher. My wife was one for 40 years and I assure you that you are dead wrong.

I have several teacher friends and my mom was a teacher. Like any other profession some work more than others. When I was single I stopped dating Teachers because they always whined about pay and hours, and they work a lot less than most people just due to all the time off. They have Pensions that we in the private sector don't get either. What I saw during the Act 10 fights in Wisconsin was they cared way more about their Union than about anything else.

BTW- I spent 15 years as an adjunct Professor teaching college courses - WAY easier than my normal job. Teaching is not hard work, I rather enjoyed it, and I was teaching at night on top of my normal job. After you teach a class one time, it is repetitive and their is very little prep.

One last thing - no teacher has ever lost a job to the Chinese- unlike manufacturing where MILLIONS were lost. I lost 2 jobs that way.

I have no problem paying for education - but the TRIM notices I just got where crazy- they reassessed my house way higher and even without a tax increase my taxes go up $200 or $600 if the increases go through. I say we march on the county courthouse!

[Packer Fan]

Ahhh, someone who never lived with (or was) a teacher. You have no idea. Spend 30+ years in an urban school system and you just might change your attitude. I DARE YOU. ;)

Edit: Make that ONE year.

I dare you to spend one year in Manufacturing, or dealing with the UAW or USW unions. The corporate politics, etc. Driving around in your foreign car and buying cheap Chinese junk at Walmart while saying it was inevitable that all the jobs went overseas I bet.

How do you know what I have done. If you did not like it you should have changed jobs. Not that hard to do. The thing you people forget is we ALL spent 12 years in school - I saw how hard teachers worked then, and then I had kids in school for 16 years - saw it there too... Not an easy job but not that hard- but NURSES work WAY harder and are paid more poorly - worse hours, no pensions, and need just as much education as teachers --- and teachers don't get crapped on or puked on(well maybe kindergarten teachers do).

Every job has plusses and minuses, but only teachers whine incessantly about it.

[Fraugoofy]

Dear PackerFan:

I am a teacher. I am also a fellow Wisconsinite. I didn't protest in 2011. I don't whine.

I do my job each and every day in the jail with the most difficult students in the State.

I am leaving teaching at the end of this year (after 30 years) to pursue my own business. There is zero incentive for me to continue teaching until I reach age 67...

Please don't lump us all together. Steroetyping may have been hip in the 70's...but not so much today.

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

[graciegirl]

All professions operate in a free market. If the pay isn't sufficient the employer will raise the salary to attract the people necessary. Even the government will raise the pay level to keep and attract employees. Colleges keep cranking out teachers every year and the majority of them find employment in that profession, so the pay must be sufficient.

Government employees, which most teachers are, receive benefits that exceed what non-government workers receive. Pensions, generous sick leave that can be saved and turned in for money, medical coverage, generous vacation time, and tenure. All that costs money and is figured into the offered salary. Name me a non-government job that offers tenure, there isn't one. Job security comes at a price.

The only thing proven by your hyperbole is that you don't have a logical argument.

You just posted an excellent argument. Welcome to this Forum, sir. And thank you for your service.

[graciegirl]

Dear PackerFan:

I am a teacher. I am also a fellow Wisconsinite. I didn't protest in 2011. I don't whine.

I do my job each and every day in the jail with the most difficult students in the State.

I am leaving teaching at the end of this year (after 30 years) to pursue my own business. There is zero incentive for me to continue teaching until I reach age 67...

Please don't lump us all together. Steroetyping may have been hip in the 70's...but not so much today.

Sent from my SM-N920R4 using Tapatalk

Thank you for your service.

[Boomer]

wow I see the teacher-bashers are out in force. (I really need to stop starting my day by looking at TOTV.)

(I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread.)

To whoever it was who said they taught as an adjunct at a college and how easy it was: Sure, it was easy. The students all wanted to be there or knew they needed to pass the class. (I bet they were all well-fed and clean and cared for, too.) They were there by choice. Adjunct is not a good comparison to teaching in a public high school.

I don’t think it is much of a stretch to look at public ed, hear the bashing, and to suspect there are those who dream of the day when kids stay home in front of screens: No faculty. No buildings. No buses. Cheap, huh? Just a talking head on a screen.

I, personally, am alarmed at the time even the youngest kids spend with their screens.(The infinitely patient babysitter that parents are too eager to hand over.) Human interaction, socialization, manners, and language development are already suffering.

Look around sometime at a young family out to dinner. You often see everybody staring at their personal device. Parents included. Very little interaction with those they love best, and yet, their individual screens pull them away from precious time together. I have seen it too many times. Screen addiction is taking its toll on our society. Therefore, it is not a big leap to imagine kids isolated with only their screens to be the public education of the future. (I guess that would happy up the teacher-bashers, those who believe in keepin’ teachers down, whether it is because it might cost them a few extra bucks or because they just need somebody to kick around or they just like to pontificate, no matter how ill-informed they may be. Who knows and why am I wasting my time bothering with this thread? Damn.)

(Geesh. For somebody trying to not get caught in a thread, I sure seem to be.. Actually, I prefer to debate in-person, but here we are, behind our screens. Ironic.)

If you are still reading this, may I leave you with another of my thoughts: I believe that funding public ed with property taxes by district has caused an insidious building of our own version of a caste system in this country.

(Well, even though I could write volumes on the topic of teachers, I am going to leave this screen now to go hang out with people I can actually see. Retired teachers among them.)

[Kenswing]

I dare you to spend one year in Manufacturing, or dealing with the UAW or USW unions. The corporate politics, etc. Driving around in your foreign car and buying cheap Chinese junk at Walmart while saying it was inevitable that all the jobs went overseas I bet.

How do you know what I have done. If you did not like it you should have changed jobs. Not that hard to do. The thing you people forget is we ALL spent 12 years in school - I saw how hard teachers worked then, and then I had kids in school for 16 years - saw it there too... Not an easy job but not that hard- but NURSES work WAY harder and are paid more poorly - worse hours, no pensions, and need just as much education as teachers --- and teachers don't get crapped on or puked on(well maybe kindergarten teachers do).

Every job has plusses and minuses, but only teachers whine incessantly about it.
Not sure where you get that idea. My wife has been a nurse for a little over 35 years. I guarantee she makes more than any teacher and probably more than most college professors..

[graciegirl]

wow I see the teacher-bashers are out in force. (I really need to stop starting my day by looking at TOTV.)

(I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread.)

To whoever it was who said they taught as an adjunct at a college and how easy it was: Sure, it was easy. The students all wanted to be there or knew they needed to pass the class. (I bet they were all well-fed and clean and cared for, too.) They were there by choice. Adjunct is not a good comparison to teaching in a public high school.

I don’t think it is much of a stretch to look at public ed, hear the bashing, and to suspect there are those who dream of the day when kids stay home in front of screens: No faculty. No buildings. No buses. Cheap, huh? Just a talking head on a screen.

I, personally, am alarmed at the time even the youngest kids spend with their screens.(The infinitely patient babysitter that parents are too eager to hand over.) Human interaction, socialization, manners, and language development are already suffering.

Look around sometime at a young family out to dinner. You often see everybody staring at their personal device. Parents included. Very little interaction with those they love best, and yet, their individual screens pull them away from precious time together. I have seen it too many times. Screen addiction is taking its toll on our society. Therefore, it is not a big leap to imagine kids isolated with only their screens to be the public education of the future. (I guess that would happy up the teacher-bashers, those who believe in keepin’ teachers down, whether it is because it might cost them a few extra bucks or because they just need somebody to kick around or they just like to pontificate, no matter how ill-informed they may be. Who knows and why am I wasting my time bothering with this thread? Damn.)

(Geesh. For somebody trying to not get caught in a thread, I sure seem to be.. Actually, I prefer to debate in-person, but here we are, behind our screens. Ironic.)

If you are still reading this, may I leave you with another of my thoughts: I believe that funding public ed with property taxes by district has caused an insidious building of our own version of a caste system in this country.

(Well, even though I could write volumes on the topic of teachers, I am going to leave this screen now to go hang out with people I can actually see. Retired teachers among them.)

???

[Chi-Town]

wow I see the teacher-bashers are out in force. (I really need to stop starting my day by looking at TOTV.)

(I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread. I cannot get caught up in this thread.)

To whoever it was who said they taught as an adjunct at a college and how easy it was: Sure, it was easy. The students all wanted to be there or knew they needed to pass the class. (I bet they were all well-fed and clean and cared for, too.) They were there by choice. Adjunct is not a good comparison to teaching in a public high school.

I don’t think it is much of a stretch to look at public ed, hear the bashing, and to suspect there are those who dream of the day when kids stay home in front of screens: No faculty. No buildings. No buses. Cheap, huh? Just a talking head on a screen.

I, personally, am alarmed at the time even the youngest kids spend with their screens.(The infinitely patient babysitter that parents are too eager to hand over.) Human interaction, socialization, manners, and language development are already suffering.

Look around sometime at a young family out to dinner. You often see everybody staring at their personal device. Parents included. Very little interaction with those they love best, and yet, their individual screens pull them away from precious time together. I have seen it too many times. Screen addiction is taking its toll on our society. Therefore, it is not a big leap to imagine kids isolated with only their screens to be the public education of the future. (I guess that would happy up the teacher-bashers, those who believe in keepin’ teachers down, whether it is because it might cost them a few extra bucks or because they just need somebody to kick around or they just like to pontificate, no matter how ill-informed they may be. Who knows and why am I wasting my time bothering with this thread? Damn.)

(Geesh. For somebody trying to not get caught in a thread, I sure seem to be.. Actually, I prefer to debate in-person, but here we are, behind our screens. Ironic.)

If you are still reading this, may I leave you with another of my thoughts: I believe that funding public ed with property taxes by district has caused an insidious building of our own version of a caste system in this country.

(Well, even though I could write volumes on the topic of teachers, I am going to leave this screen now to go hang out with people I can actually see. Retired teachers among them.)

I like the part where a poster said they wouldn't even date a teacher.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[Taltarzac725]

Love teachers. They have had profound influences on my life. Some good and some bad.

I must have liked education as I have four degrees earned at five institutions of higher learning in five different states. And took a lot of extra courses as well.

I would certainly date a teacher and some of my favorite people here in the Villages are retired teachers. One was a Spanish teacher in an Ohio high school who married an Ohio High School French teacher.

[jebartle]

Our priorities are screwed up when our teachers make a fraction of college coaches, really!!!!!

[retiredguy123]

I think they are just responding to an education system that continues to demand more and more money, while delivering poorer results, and not willing to accept responsibility for the results. Right or wrong, teachers always say they are underpaid, but they are never responsible if their students don't learn. Very frustrating for the taxpayers who pay for the system.

[ColdNoMore]

Snip...>wow I see the teacher-bashers are out in force.<...Snip


I completely agree. :thumbup:

[ColdNoMore]

Our priorities are screwed up when our teachers make a fraction of college coaches, really!!!!!

Yep. :oops:

I'm sure I don't have to tell you, that a good football coach can temporarily bring in revenue to a college/university with a good team, whereas a great teacher/professor can only produce students...that might someday positively improve everyone's lives.

Pretty easy to see, where some people...put their priorities. :ohdear:

[justjim]

My comments were not intended to be negative. I'm just doing the math. Teachers constantly claim that they have a full time job. I disagree. If teachers want to have a full time job, then, yes, they should "clock in" the hours like other full time workers. Then, there would be no argument about whether they have a full or part time job. But, I have known teachers who didn't do any work outside of the classroom.

My wife was in education. From my observations, suffice it to say that the skill level and work ethic of teachers differs very little from any other so called “professional” job. Some work very hard and some are very good at what they do. From my observations, other employees not so much. My home State (Illinois) ranked 7th (pre-K-12) by one poll (there are many different polls/surveys and ways to rank) but always in the top 20, currently has a severe shortage of teachers. Many variables can go into teacher pay ranking and you should take into account the cost of living in a given area of the country or State. Within a State the cost of living can be very different and thus a big difference in pay for teachers.

Bottom line: Given the cost of living in Sumter County Fl., teacher pay is about average IMHO. Of course, reasonable people can disagree. :ho: