Solar Energy In TV

[Jimbo120]

I recently installed a solar system to my home which should cover 90 to 95 percent of my demand and I would be
happy to discuss my experience if there is anyone out there thinking about solar

For those moving into the new areas of The Villages this might be something to consider as your roof is new and you may be a bit younger than me as payback is just under 10 yearsl

A couple of things I learned...
Forget those zero down offers, paying cash drastically reduces the system costs
Look closely at the warranty, in my case I have 25 years on everything including labor
Buy the most efficient panels and digital inverters suited for Florida weather (high temps limit production)

In case anyone asks, I am not selling anything, just passing along my experience

[Toymeister]

More details please. Your home style (frame or block) age, square footage. Any significant energy consumers (pool, cooled Lanai). Average Kwh per month/year before solar. What temp do you cool your home to? Are you full time?

How much is generated? How much surplus is sold back to SECO?

What size system do you have, what direction does it face?

Do you also have natural gas?

What sort (brand/model) energy management system do you use? I have reams of consumption data for a non solar home. That is what is driving my line of questions.

[sweethomeru]

Jimbo,

Congrats. I just moved to the Village's from Maryland and I'm in the process of installing a new solar system as well. It'll be my second system as I installed one in Maryland a few years ago.

Both times I debated whether to install the system as it's a chunk of change and electricity prices are low. I decided twice now to take the plunge not just for the fiscal reasons, but that it's the right thing to do if you're concerned about the environment.

I also drive an electric car that will be charged by the sun.

I live in a courtyard villa (1650sqft) with a pool. The panels will be facing toward the west. Of course the best exposure is to the south. The interesting point I learned was even though the panels will face south, they will be as efficient as my panels southern facing panels in Maryland because of the lower latitude.

Installation should begin soon (I'll post pictures).

[rjm1cc]

Jimbo,

Congrats. I just moved to the Village's from Maryland and I'm in the process of installing a new solar system as well. It'll be my second system as I installed one in Maryland a few years ago.

Both times I debated whether to install the system as it's a chunk of change and electricity prices are low. I decided twice now to take the plunge not just for the fiscal reasons, but that it's the right thing to do if you're concerned about the environment.

I also drive an electric car that will be charged by the sun.

I live in a courtyard villa (1650sqft) with a pool. The panels will be facing toward the west. Of course the best exposure is to the south. The interesting point I learned was even though the panels will face south, they will be as efficient as my panels southern facing panels in Maryland because of the lower latitude.

Installation should begin soon (I'll post pictures).
I used the East side due to afternoon rain storms. Did not have any statistics to make the decision.

[Toymeister]

I can get the hours sunlight and I have all the consumption data that I need. What I am lacking is my 5KwH unit generated XX kwh during these hours for a certain month. It is probably data that no one is tracking.

The reason the hours are important is surplus energy is sold to SECO at wholesale and purchased at retail.

With all this I can get an independent idea of the pay off. I prefer to diy than rely upon an on line estimator or someone in solar sales.

[rjm1cc]

I can get the hours sunlight and I have all the consumption data that I need. What I am lacking is my 5KwH unit generated XX kwh during these hours for a certain month. It is probably data that no one is tracking.

The reason the hours are important is surplus energy is sold to SECO at wholesale and purchased at retail.

With all this I can get an independent idea of the pay off. I prefer to diy than rely upon an on line estimator or someone in solar sales.
Not sure what you are looking for, this site might help.
SolarEdge (https://monitoring.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/home#/dashboard)

[pauld315]

I recently installed a solar system to my home which should cover 90 to 95 percent of my demand and

Check back in a year or two and update us on how this works out for you

[retiredguy123]

I think solar panels are great if you are doing it for the environment, but I am skeptical about the economics. I would be interested in knowing who calculated the 10 year payback period and what it includes. Does it include the lost 10 year investment value for the upfront cost? What rate of return was used? Does it include projected future electricity costs? Does it include repairs and maintenance, especially if you have a roof leak? Are the panels covered by a homeowners policy? I would also like to know how the solar panels affect the market value of the house. It would be interesting to hear an experienced Realtor's opinion about that. An interesting topic.

[rjm1cc]

I think solar panels are great if you are doing it for the environment, but I am skeptical about the economics. I would be interested in knowing who calculated the 10 year payback period and what it includes. Does it include the lost 10 year investment value for the upfront cost? What rate of return was used? Does it include projected future electricity costs? Does it include repairs and maintenance, especially if you have a roof leak? Are the panels covered by a homeowners policy? I would also like to know how the solar panels affect the market value of the house. It would be interesting to hear an experienced Realtor's opinion about that. An interesting topic.

About 3 o4 years ago the payback was mentioned at 11 years by a few people. Costs are probably a little lower now. But I calculated about 13 years to 18 years. 18 years included 5,000 for maintenance and repairs - primarily cost of removing for a new roof. Did not increase or decrease electric rates. Add $60 or so in annual insurance costs. I compared the return to the interest I could earn on a bond (5 to 6% not what they pay now). I sort of concluded it might be a breakeven but investments in stock could (or maybe not) do better.

[retiredguy123]

FYI, I did an online calculation for my house using solar-estimate.org. The results showed that the upfront cost, after the tax credit, would be $12,489. This amount is supposed to be an average cost from four local solar contractors. The payback period is 16 years, and the total life cycle energy cost savings over 25 years would be $4,647. But, they did not include any potential investment return that I would forfeit by not being able to invest my $12,489. They also did not include any repair, maintenance, or insurance costs. So, I cannot see how a solar system would make financial sense for my house. Also, I think the 30 percent Federal tax credit is due to expire this year.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

FYI, I did an online calculation for my house using solar-estimate.org. The results showed that the upfront cost, after the tax credit, would be $12,489. This amount is supposed to be an average cost from four local solar contractors. The payback period is 16 years, and the total life cycle energy cost savings over 25 years would be $4,647. But, they did not include any potential investment return that I would forfeit by not being able to invest my $12,489. They also did not include any repair, maintenance, or insurance costs. So, I cannot see how a solar system would make financial sense for my house. Also, I think the 30 percent Federal tax credit is due to expire this year.

Having and maintaining grass for a lawn doesn't give anyone any return at all, compared with having and maintaining a Better Homes and Gardens quality rock garden with cactii, but people do it all the time.

Sometimes people do things because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes they do it because the idea is appealing. Sometimes they do it because hey - if your neighborhood's electricity goes out, and you're not on the grid to begin with - you'll be the only one in the neighborhood who doesn't have to fire up the generator to keep the lights on and the refrigerator cold.

[Toymeister]

FYI, I did an online calculation for my house using solar-estimate.org. The results showed that the upfront cost, after the tax credit, would be $12,489. This amount is supposed to be an average cost from four local solar contractors. The payback period is 16 years, and the total life cycle energy cost savings over 25 years would be $4,647. But, they did not include any potential investment return that I would forfeit by not being able to invest my $12,489. They also did not include any repair, maintenance, or insurance costs. So, I cannot see how a solar system would make financial sense for my house. Also, I think the 30 percent Federal tax credit is due to expire this year.
Here is the flaw in on line calculators that I have used.

They assume every watt generated is offset by a watt that would have been purchased. It is not as measured by dollars. You exceed your use during solar noon and sell to the utility at 7 cents a KwH but when you need electricity at midnight you pay 11.7 cents.

To a degree, with this knowledge, you can avoid some, but not all delta. Example charge your electric car at noon, super cool your house, run water heater.

The math changes the economics of purchase, if you thrive on facts, as I do.

[coffeebean]

I can not wrap my head around all the fiscal aspects of a home solar system. I do care about the environment as I recycle diligently. But....for me, the solar panels on home roofs are an eyesore. I do not like what they do to the appearance of homes. We will never install one of these systems. But that's just me.

[Jimbo120]

Great discussion, glad there are others out there looking at solar

To start your journey get your last year's electric bill and get a calculation from PVWatts Calculator (https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/) of potential power production and to size your unit (This is a government site where you can select historical solar radiation data from near your home, I used data from under a mile away) I paid just under $2500 per KWH for my top end system.

As far as panel placement, put as many as possible on the southern exposure and the rest on the east side as afternoon storms make the western exposure less productive ! Every solar installer will ask for your electric bills for the last year and be able to project how many panels will fit where by using Google Earth. My installer, Unicity, provides a cell phone (not WiFi) based system where I can look at each panel performance and daily usage and production data. So far I am selling a little more back to SECO than I am using.

Energy Sage is an excellent site to learn about the different panels available. I purchased the most efficient panels for Florida Panasonic with EnPhase digital inverters. One caution, don't have Energy Sage send contractors to you because if you deal direct your price may be cheaper. I found excellent contractors thru the Panasonic Site which lists their best contractors.

On the question of payback, I did not consider the lost investment cost of my purchase. Nor did I figure anything for maintenance as my warranty covers product, labor, and roof penetrations for 25 years. My thought was that I am locking in the cost of electricity and figure my next car, if I have to buy one, will be electric. Unless your system size is very large (I think over 6.2) you do not have to carry any extra insurance. Your homeowners should cover it.


Also be aware that the 30% tax credit is scheduled to be reduced in 2020 not eliminated. My understanding is that resale is higher but I do not plan to care about that 20 years from now.

Thanks Jimbo120

[Debelg]

I just signed a contract for 34 panels and yes of course I could have taken the money and invested it but then you need to take in consideration the risk/reward factor and if you are already a investor then solar is just another way to invest . I will bring your bills down as soon as it is hooked up to the grid . also take a look at your utility bills from a year ago and even a couple years ago if you still have them ,like clockwork the rates increase yearly how much will you pay 10 years from now . D uke Energy is building Solar fields (why do you think that is? ) My system should be paid back in about 8 years so what if it takes 10 Every month I will be putting my Energy invoices in my desk with a big smile on my face ,,,,,,,,, will you ? just my 2 cents
enjoy your day

[biker1]

I went back two years (as far back as I keep the bills). The cost per kWh has increased 0.5% over two years when dividing the total bill by the number of kWhs used. The actual rate that is being charged has not changed in at least two years. The total bill contains items other than the number of kWhs used times the rate such as a "customer charge" per month (regardless of the amount of electricity used, essentially the cost of being connected to the grid). It appears that the 0.5% increase over two years has come from the increase in the "customer charge". Since you will still be hooked up to the grid, you will continue to pay the "customer charge" each month. During the spring and fall, when electric use is low, the monthly "customer charge" is about 33% of my total bill.

I just signed a contract for 34 panels and yes of course I could have taken the money and invested it but then you need to take in consideration the risk/reward factor and if you are already a investor then solar is just another way to invest . I will bring your bills down as soon as it is hooked up to the grid . also take a look at your utility bills from a year ago and even a couple years ago if you still have them ,like clockwork the rates increase yearly how much will you pay 10 years from now . D uke Energy is building Solar fields (why do you think that is? ) My system should be paid back in about 8 years so what if it takes 10 Every month I will be putting my Energy invoices in my desk with a big smile on my face ,,,,,,,,, will you ? just my 2 cents
enjoy your day

[Debelg]

of course the increase is always small but it is there to be multiplied by the number of KWH don't forget the increase when you go over 1000KWH and what about the Asset Securitizatation another .254 nothing seems big but over the years it all adds up but this is just what the utilities want …….. happy customers .
as for me I opted for nearly $$0.00$$ bills that will make me Happy .
Remember
not one system will ever make us ALL happy
enjoy your day

[biker1]

I think you missed my point. The rates (up to 1000 kWhs and over 1000 kWhs) haven't increased for the last two years. Your bill won't go to nearly $0.00 because you will always be paying a "customer charge", and any other charges if you are still connected to the grid, currently $24 per month for SECO, and that is where the recent increases have come from. I would love to install solar panels but the economics just aren't there. My own calculations put the payback time at over 10 years, excluding future value of money calculations, plus the panels are still experiencing deflation. Please do report on the installation procedure and your bills for the first couple of months.

of course the increase is always small but it is there to be multiplied by the number of KWH don't forget the increase when you go over 1000KWH and what about the Asset Securitizatation another .254 nothing seems big but over the years it all adds up but this is just what the utilities want …….. happy customers .
as for me I opted for nearly $$0.00$$ bills that will make me Happy .
Remember
not one system will ever make us ALL happy
enjoy your day

[retiredguy123]

The U.S. Department of Energy claims that, nationwide, the market value of a house increases by an average of 4 dollars per watt of solar panels installed. So, a house with a 5 kilowatt solar panel system is worth $20,000 more than one without a solar system. I think that is more than the actual initial cost for the solar system. Call me skeptical, but I don't believe the DOE's claim is true in The Villages, or other places I have lived. Personally, I don't think I would even buy a house with a solar system because of the unknown factors involved, such as maintenance. But, I would really like to hear from someone who sells houses for an expert opinion. Are home buyers willing to pay more for a house with a solar system?

[PrudentLifer]

The U.S. Department of Energy claims that, nationwide, the market value of a house increases by an average of 4 dollars per watt of solar panels installed. So, a house with a 5 kilowatt solar panel system is worth $20,000 more than one without a solar system. I think that is more than the actual initial cost for the solar system. Call me skeptical, but I don't believe the DOE's claim is true in The Villages, or other places I have lived. Personally, I don't think I would even buy a house with a solar system because of the unknown factors involved, such as maintenance. But, I would really like to hear from someone who sells houses for an expert opinion. Are home buyers willing to pay more for a house with a solar system?



I would expect a deep discount, naw. I just wouldn't buy the white elephant.


"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears..."
George Orwell

[UpNorth]

A house that runs with a ZERO electric bill is something most buyers would find attractive IMO.

[vintageogauge]

I'm soooooo confused.

[NatureBoy]

How much surplus is sold back to SECO?

You guys are lucky that SECO will buy your surplus. Where I am in VA the local power company does not. I recently had a solar salesperson out and it made more financial sense to put fewer panels on my home. Nope, not worth it.

When we move to TV, I’ll think real hard about it since we plan to move down in our 50s. But if we move a few times within TV, that may negate the value. Solar only makes sense if you stay somewhere 10+ years after it’s put in.

[Toymeister]

You guys are lucky that SECO will buy your surplus. Where I am in VA the local power company does not. I recently had a solar salesperson out and it made more financial sense to put fewer panels on my home. Nope, not worth it.

When we move to TV, I’ll think real hard about it since we plan to move down in our 50s. But if we move a few times within TV, that may negate the value. Solar only makes sense if you stay somewhere 10+ years after it’s put in.

Florida's utilities lobbied very hard and later placed an amendment on the ballot within the past two years to stop any pro-solar efforts for consumers in the state. The solar group won, hopefully this will be the end of this anti solar movement by the utilities.

[rjm1cc]

I think you need to be able to send your surplus electric to the utility and have it returned on cloudy days and at night to make it reasonable to install solar. You can in Fl.
As an alternative you would need battery walls but these may have to support your for a couple of days so they may not be a reasonable option.

[Two Bills]

I am in UK and have Mitsubishi Air Source heating system installed. House is all electric.
Had it for two years and it has cut my electricity bill by about 30% per year, and lets face it, we here do not get the same amount of sunshine or temperatures as Florida.
Just another source of energy saving to consider.

[sweethomeru]

Just turned on my 7.44kw 24 panel system by Solar Energy World in Tampa. Feel free to message me if you'd like a tour.

[Arctic Fox]

"Your bill won't go to nearly $0.00 because you will always be paying a "customer charge", and any other charges if you are still connected to the grid, currently $24 per month for SECO, and that is where the recent increases have come from."

A good reason for buying the battery storage as well and going "off grid". However, can anyone enlighten me on the cost of a typical "whole house" battery and its likely lifespan?

This is an interesting read:
7 Best Batteries for Solar Panels 2019 [Including Buying Guide] (https://greencoast.org/best-batteries-for-solar/)
but I should like to hear any personal experience too.

Thank you

[Bigmike18]

This an interesting topic,, I wonder why we as village residents don’t ask that solar fields be built by the villages on some lands not suitable for construction. Or lands outside the villages,, perhaps we could generate enough electricity, that the entire villages area would be energy neutral.

[UpNorth]

This an interesting topic,, I wonder why we as village residents don’t ask that solar fields be built by the villages on some lands not suitable for construction. Or lands outside the villages,, perhaps we could generate enough electricity, that the entire villages area would be energy neutral.

You would have to hook it up to the grid that SECO runs and maintains, and I doubt if SECO would want you to compete with them in selling electricity to Villagers.

[retiredguy123]

This an interesting topic,, I wonder why we as village residents don’t ask that solar fields be built by the villages on some lands not suitable for construction. Or lands outside the villages,, perhaps we could generate enough electricity, that the entire villages area would be energy neutral.
Because the village residents would not be willing to pay a lot more money for their electricity. Only about 1.5 percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. comes from solar, as compared to 63 percent from fossil fuels, like coal and natural gas. Generating electricity from fossil fuels is much cheaper than solar.

[biker1]

Tesla Powerwall (lithium-ion based): 13.5 kWh for $7.6K and a 10 year warranty (I assume warrantied to maintain 70% of initial capacity) and multiple units can be installed. Probably not the lowest cost but probably one of the best technical solutions. Going off the grid would not be cheap.

"Your bill won't go to nearly $0.00 because you will always be paying a "customer charge", and any other charges if you are still connected to the grid, currently $24 per month for SECO, and that is where the recent increases have come from."

A good reason for buying the battery storage as well and going "off grid". However, can anyone enlighten me on the cost of a typical "whole house" battery and its likely lifespan?

This is an interesting read:
7 Best Batteries for Solar Panels 2019 [Including Buying Guide] (https://greencoast.org/best-batteries-for-solar/)
but I should like to hear any personal experience too.

Thank you

[rjm1cc]

Because the village residents would not be willing to pay a lot more money for their electricity. Only about 1.5 percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. comes from solar, as compared to 63 percent from fossil fuels, like coal and natural gas. Generating electricity from fossil fuels is much cheaper than solar.
If all the residences installed solar would that eliminate the use of oil, natural gas and coal for the production of electricity for the Village?
How would this be done?

[retiredguy123]

If all the residences installed solar would that eliminate the use of oil, natural gas and coal for the production of electricity for the Village?
How would this be done?
Maybe, but who would pay for it? See Post No. 10. Most people cannot afford to install the panels. The people who install solar panels can afford it, and they do it because they believe in energy conservation. Which is fine. But, I don't think it is a good financial investment, especially when the Federal tax credit is totally eliminated in 2022.

[Rosebud2020]

As many have commented, solar is a great way to go for a multitude of reasons.
However, from all I have read, a retrofit is generally not a cost-effective thing to do, mainly because of costs and payback.
Solar as a new system for a new home is an entirely different story.

The Green Key development on Lake Ella Road is a success story; if you aren't familiar with it, it's worth a visit.

[DAIII]

I have full solar in my northern home (the tempered glass panels shed snow like a metal roof) with battery backup (auto switch when power is out) - haven't paid for electricity in years. @TV having solar and battery added (tesla) and I'll enjoy living and driving (tesla) by the power of the sun. 30% tax credits run out by year end. (down to 26%) so act fast to help save the planet!

[Arctic Fox]

This an interesting topic,, I wonder why we as village residents don’t ask that solar fields be built by the villages on some lands not suitable for construction. Or lands outside the villages,, perhaps we could generate enough electricity, that the entire villages area would be energy neutral.

It amazes me that new Rec Centers don't have solar installed on the roof when they are built (and the old ones when they get new roofs). It is space that can't be used for anything else and, since Rec Centers use the vast majority of their electricity during daylight hours, would provide sufficient electricity to run the air-con, pool heating and hot showers etc. Since TV can buy in bulk, the cost of solar should be cheaper than buying electricity in.

[TCRSO]

As background, we have lived in an off grid home (Florida Keys) and currently own to off grid homes in Canada. Solar works (as long as you are not trying to run AC). It is not in our view as economical as grid electricity. The one economic exception would be using a solar powered pump on a swimming pool.

[rjm1cc]

I have full solar in my northern home (the tempered glass panels shed snow like a metal roof) with battery backup (auto switch when power is out) - haven't paid for electricity in years. @TV having solar and battery added (tesla) and I'll enjoy living and driving (tesla) by the power of the sun. 30% tax credits run out by year end. (down to 26%) so act fast to help save the planet!

I have not paid a lot of attention to batteries as I was concerned that when we had a couple of cloudy days the batteries may run dry. Can you tell me your experience with reliability and how big a battery back up you have? I figure I use about 1000 watts a day but it varies a lot by the time of year. I would guess that I might need a two or three day backup for the summer.

[joldnol]

Florida should make solar more consumer friendly

[biker1]

I don’t know what size house you have but it would not be unusual to be using 40 kWhs per day during the summer.

I have not paid a lot of attention to batteries as I was concerned that when we had a couple of cloudy days the batteries may run dry. Can you tell me your experience with reliability and how big a battery back up you have? I figure I use about 1000 watts a day but it varies a lot by the time of year. I would guess that I might need a two or three day backup for the summer.

[biker1]

How would you suggest that be accomplished?


Florida should make solar more consumer friendly

[Packer Fan]

Great discussion, glad there are others out there looking at solar

To start your journey get your last year's electric bill and get a calculation from PVWatts Calculator (https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/) of potential power production and to size your unit (This is a government site where you can select historical solar radiation data from near your home, I used data from under a mile away) I paid just under $2500 per KWH for my top end system.

As far as panel placement, put as many as possible on the southern exposure and the rest on the east side as afternoon storms make the western exposure less productive ! Every solar installer will ask for your electric bills for the last year and be able to project how many panels will fit where by using Google Earth. My installer, Unicity, provides a cell phone (not WiFi) based system where I can look at each panel performance and daily usage and production data. So far I am selling a little more back to SECO than I am using.

Energy Sage is an excellent site to learn about the different panels available. I purchased the most efficient panels for Florida Panasonic with EnPhase digital inverters. One caution, don't have Energy Sage send contractors to you because if you deal direct your price may be cheaper. I found excellent contractors thru the Panasonic Site which lists their best contractors.

On the question of payback, I did not consider the lost investment cost of my purchase. Nor did I figure anything for maintenance as my warranty covers product, labor, and roof penetrations for 25 years. My thought was that I am locking in the cost of electricity and figure my next car, if I have to buy one, will be electric. Unless your system size is very large (I think over 6.2) you do not have to carry any extra insurance. Your homeowners should cover it.


Also be aware that the 30% tax credit is scheduled to be reduced in 2020 not eliminated. My understanding is that resale is higher but I do not plan to care about that 20 years from now.

Thanks Jimbo120

My main concern is Hurricanes and roof replacement. Will they survive a hurricane and is there a warranty for this? Also, what happens when you have to replace the roof?

[Packer Fan]

This an interesting topic,, I wonder why we as village residents don’t ask that solar fields be built by the villages on some lands not suitable for construction. Or lands outside the villages,, perhaps we could generate enough electricity, that the entire villages area would be energy neutral.

I can answer that one. We looked at going solar for our manufacturing plants so I understand the calculations. They would have to cover a HUGE area - like the are of all the land they own that they have not built on to supply all of TV. The most efficient way to do this is with panels on the roofs of homes - it is basically free space. The problem is that the power grid is really not built to handle the up and down production if every house had solar panels. The panels are also not cost effective. When they get down to like $6000 a house instead of $13-14K, that will be when the discussion changes and everyone starts installing panels.

[retiredguy123]

I can answer that one. We looked at going solar for our manufacturing plants so I understand the calculations. They would have to cover a HUGE area - like the are of all the land they own that they have not built on to supply all of TV. The most efficient way to do this is with panels on the roofs of homes - it is basically free space. The problem is that the power grid is really not built to handle the up and down production if every house had solar panels. The panels are also not cost effective. When they get down to like $6000 a house instead of $13-14K, that will be when the discussion changes and everyone starts installing panels.
See Post No. 10. The panels for my very small house would cost more than $20K before applying a 30 percent tax credit. My current electric bill for the entire year is only about $1,000.

[DAIII]

16KW lithium batteries. (takes about 3 days to run them flat without any sun*) now again this is based on usage. (as example I don't run AC often- only in summer) most of the new homes in TV are gas supplied - so electric usage is very low to begin with.
Batteries are designed to run things after the sun goes down-if you only have solar and no batteries and the grid is out it auto shuts off (you cannot use the panels to power anything) unless you have battery storage then you can run independently.

*a cloudy day makes solar- sun hitting panels on an angle makes solar. (in fact panels with up to a foot of snow makes solar) the new panels do not need direct sun. If you have two homes in different locations you can send power from one home to another based on which has more sun.

I did it for the off grid life, the feeling of saving the planet - it's about a 10 year return (most panels have a 25 yr warranty) but it's not free electric.

Hope this helps.