32 countries with universal healthcare

[jebartle]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

[rjn5656]

I recently traveled to several european countries on vacation. Universal health care is not what it seems. Most people tell us you need private health insurance in order to get adequate care. So just be careful what you read.

[l2ridehd]

And of those 32 where does it work well? None that I know of. Costs run out of control and quality of care suffers. There are no good answers that solve the health care issues every country faces. Doctors leave, the tax burden becomes so onerous that those that make good money leave and the problems get worse.

Someone was touting the very low infant death rate in one of the Nordic countries that have socialized health care. So much lower than the US. Once you studied the facts, we count a child at birth, they don't start counting until the baby is 30 days old. So it becomes very difficult to compare statistics from country to country. The UK's system is bankrupt and cutting services to survive. Canada's does work but for a very small population and the waiting list does get long for lots of things. And those that can afford it do come to the US for lots of items.

There has to be many things we can do to improve our current system but am not sure Universal care is the correct answer.

[stan the man]

Make more doctors ..You can't tell me that in a country the size of the United States we don't have millions of people that are qualified to be doctors today. Why is it we have to go to other countries to import doctors to come and work here at big salaries. If I go to India I'm quite sure if i go to a doctor he will not have america accent. Or came from the USA to practice in India. Stop with the baloney the AMA Controls the amount of doctors being produced in the United States and keeps it low so it is really no competition. So as all the experts claim that competition always lowers the price of everything let's make more hospitals produce more doctors. I'm really not quite sure that would work either as I look and see how many lawyers are produced in this country and still they charge a high price. Least the doctor has to go to school for many years to get his doctorates to bring and become an M.D. where real estate salespeople get 6% to do nothing.

[leftyf]

Move to one of those countries for a year then give us a report.

[JoMar]

Make more doctors ..You can't tell me that in a country the size of the United States we don't have millions of people that are qualified to be doctors today. Why is it we have to go to other countries to import doctors to come and work here at big salaries. If I go to India I'm quite sure if i go to a doctor he will not have america accent. Or came from the USA to practice in India. Stop with the baloney the AMA Controls the amount of doctors being produced in the United States and keeps it low so it is really no competition. So as all the experts claim that competition always lowers the price of everything let's make more hospitals produce more doctors. I'm really not quite sure that would work either as I look and see how many lawyers are produced in this country and still they charge a high price. Least the doctor has to go to school for many years to get his doctorates to bring and become an M.D. where real estate salespeople get 6% to do nothing.

Make the hospitals produce more doctors? How do you propose they do that, march the police into homes and drag them to medical school? LOL. I have talked to many doctors about the shortage and they all are in agreement is that it takes a special person today to enter medicine to be a primary care physician. The money and reduced hours are in the specialty areas and that's where medical students focus today. The more medicare provides payment the less attractive primary care becomes. The older the population becomes the more specialized medicine is needed and they don't need to accept government money to do well. There isn't a simple answer. Also have had neighbors return recently from Europe and they talked to a lot of folks about health care. They heard what the previous poster heard, very expensive tax contribution needed but lots of shortcomings, especially as you get older. Don't have first hand knowledge on that.

[kathyspear]

On a river cruise through The Netherlands and Belgium, tour guide tells us how great it is that they get free college and free healthcare. I ask what they pay in taxes. He says anyone making the equivalent of 50k USD pays about 2/3 in taxes.

k.

[blueash]

For all of you who have posted or are going to post that countries with Universal Health Care have poor care, or that their citizens hate it, or that you once met someone from Germany who wished for Americanized health care.. these sorts of questions are regularly asked by pollsters and researchers. You don't hear of citizen movements to scrap universal health care and replace it with private insurance anywhere, not even from the most conservation politicians in Europe. Tweak the system, yes. But copy the USA, no.

2014 US last in health care of 11 Western nations (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-lowest-in-international-survey/)

2011 U.S. had the highest percentage of respondents who reported (https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/journal-article/2013/apr/analysis-survey-data-11-countries-finds-satisfaction-health) being very confident they would receive effective treatment (34.7%) and also the highest percentage saying they were not at all confident they would (9.2%). The U.S., meanwhile, had the highest percentage of respondents who believed that their health system was in need of complete rebuilding (25.4%).

the Nordic countries that have socialized health care. So much lower than the US. Once you studied the facts, we count a child at birth, they don't start counting until the baby is 30 days old.

That is completely wrong. I wish people would post links when they make such outrageous claims. There are very slight differences in definitions of live birth.
Sweden uses exactly the same definition as the US. Norway only counts those born at 12 weeks gestation who exhibit any signs of life, that's 3 months into a pregnancy. Finland uses the WHO definition of liveborn "'Liveborn' is the term for a newborn who breathes or shows other signs of life after birth" Our own CDC has looked very closely at infant mortality. Ours is terrible in part due to higher rates of prematurity [itself a reflection of poor prenatal care and poverty] But it is not just more premies
infant mortality rates for infants born at 37 weeks of gestation or more are generally higher in the United States than in European countries (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db23.htm).

Please, come here and offer thoughts on improving health care for America, but don't make stuff up.

[manaboutown]

I wonder why Mick didn't get his heart surgery done in London rather than in NYC? It would have been "free". Mick Jagger Is '''Feeling Much Better Now''' Post-Heart Surgery | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/music/mick-jagger-feeling-much-better-now-after-heart-valve-replacement-surgery/)

[Boomer]

The answers are somewhere in the middle. Fixing, instead of insidiously dismantling, the ACA is the way to provide truly more affordable access through the open market for those without access through employers.

Also though, the shared premium costs, out-of-pocket, and high deductibles paid by those with employer insurance are now often stunningly high, even for those who have really good jobs. I think those costs might shock those of us who had excellent coverage at no, or very low, cost when we were working.

Continuing protection for pre-existing conditions could be taken away if insurance companies continue to be given more and more power. The protection of pre-existing conditions under the ACA changed many lives for the better.

The complete privatization of Medicare is a goal of those in bed with insurance companies. I like choice which would be taken away if insurance companies end up holding all the cards, which is what total privatization would mean.

We need common sense, fair solutions for our nation’s healthcare problems, solutions with access, affordability, options, and choice. Insurance companies should be included, but not given complete control.

The answers are there, in the middle somewhere, with communication and problem solving skills. But not in grand sweeping gestures or in corrupt backdoor palm-greasing.

[Ben Franklin]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

I have several friends living in Canada, France and The UK. I have spoken to each one of them about their system, and they love it. Their systems are more of a social democracy, and as I understand it, they are still market based. Yes, they pay higher taxes, but I wonder if anyone did a cost comparison between the amount of taxes paid vs. the cost of insurance. Just yesterday I had to pay $100 for a generic drug, because of the donut hole system. And it seems most dentists don't take insurance, or they don't take UHC insurance, and so we just had to pay over $700 for an initial visit.

[karostay]

On a river cruise through The Netherlands and Belgium, tour guide tells us how great it is that they get free college and free healthcare. I ask what they pay in taxes. He says anyone making the equivalent of 50k USD pays about 2/3 in taxes.

k.

Ever buy fuel or alcohol in Canada ? 4 times Us price
nothings free all has cost

[jebartle]

The answers are somewhere in the middle. Fixing, instead of insidiously dismantling, the ACA is the way to provide truly more affordable access through the open market for those without access through employers.

Also though, the shared premium costs, out-of-pocket, and high deductibles paid by those with employer insurance are now often stunningly high, even for those who have really good jobs. I think those costs might shock those of us who had excellent coverage at no, or very low, cost when we were working.

Continuing protection for pre-existing conditions could be taken away if insurance companies continue to be given more and more power. The protection of pre-existing conditions under the ACA changed many lives for the better.

The complete privatization of Medicare is a goal of those in bed with insurance companies. I like choice which would be taken away if insurance companies end up holding all the cards, which is what total privatization would mean.

We need common sense, fair solutions for our nation’s healthcare problems, solutions with access, affordability, options, and choice. Insurance companies should be included, but not given complete control.

The answers are there, in the middle somewhere, with communication and problem solving skills. But not in grand sweeping gestures or in corrupt backdoor palm-greasing.

I agree with you boomer, moderately speaking that those Americans that like their insurance should keep it, along with improvements with ACA.

[blueash]

On a river cruise through The Netherlands and Belgium, tour guide tells us how great it is that they get free college and free healthcare. I ask what they pay in taxes. He says anyone making the equivalent of 50k USD pays about 2/3 in taxes.

k.

So I looked that up. NETHERLANDS: For 2019 the income tax rate for someone making 50K US = 44K Euro is abt 7K Euro or just short of 8K USD. Whereas 2/3 of 50K would be 33K USD. There are no local income taxes, no additional soc security or Medicare taxes in Netherlands, and the top marginal income tax rate is 51%
Belgium is slightly higher taxes. The marginal rate at 50K USD is 45%. There are some local and SSec taxes. The average Belgian pays 42% taxes. The average American pays 26%. This does not include adjustments for employers' payments.

US healthcare cost is now at over 11K per person per year That alone is 22% of that 50K person's income taxed from 1st dollar earned. And if we are only talking about one wage earner in a family of 4, a total of 44K spent on health care with a 50K income. This is why something needs to change.

[retiredguy123]

I cringe whenever I hear someone say that there should be a "public option" for Government health insurance, and that those who like their employer insurance should be allowed to keep it. I just don't think that would work. I think employers would do whatever they could to encourage or force employees to switch to the Government insurance. So, there would be no employer insurance.

[blueash]

Ever buy fuel or alcohol in Canada ? 4 times Us price
nothings free all has cost

Using GasBuddy:
Gasoline Niagara Falls Canada 1.10/liter = 4.20 C$/USGal or 3.20 US dollars per US gallon
Niagara Falls US 2.60/gal
3.2 is NOT 4 times 2.6

Alcohol prices are harder to compare as it depends of beer vs wine vs spirits etc. But I found this (https://www.duifix.ca/alcoholprices.htm):
Alcohol prices in Canada are approximately twice as expensive as in the United States. The sole reason for this price difference is that Provincial Governments regulate minimum prices and taxes on alcohol.

24 cans of Bud (https://dep-quebec.com/en/2019-minimum-price-of-beer-strong-increase/) in Quebec in 2019 costs abt 21 USD Looks like that same item is 19 USD at Walmart
(https://grocery.walmart.com/ip/Budweiser-Beer-24-Pack-12-fl-oz-Cans/10984473)

Again not 4 times the cost. Not even close.

[JGVillages]

Whatever the government estimates the cost of Medicare for All, free college, or any other programs they wish to be in charge of you can be sure, as their past and present performance proves, the costs will be nowhere what they estimate, and the efficiencies necessary to keep performance in line will be non existent. Don’t drink the Kool-Aide they are offering.

[blueash]

I wonder why Mick didn't get his heart surgery done in London rather than in NYC? It would have been "free". Mick Jagger Is '''Feeling Much Better Now''' Post-Heart Surgery | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/music/mick-jagger-feeling-much-better-now-after-heart-valve-replacement-surgery/)

And I'm sure you already know the answer to your question. For the wealthiest of the wealthy, for the 1% and the 0.1% the very best health care in the world is here. So if cost is absolutely not a concern to the health care consumer, come here and spend a lot of money for a likely very good outcome. Mick didn't fly here on Spirit airlines in a middle seat in his Walmart jeans either. No one is arguing that the quality of care in the US for those with excellent insurance and no problems with copays and coinsurance and out of pocket deductibles is very good. The discussion about whether we need to rework our health care payment system is about regular Americans with regular jobs and mortgages for whom the copays and the deductibles and the coinsurance are ruinous.
Those living in the Villages are not typical Americans. You are getting your health care for very low cost. You are very wealthy with retirement savings, pensions, large IRAs etc.
Most Americans, yes most, do not have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/60-percent-of-millennials-cant-cover-a-1000-dollar-emergency.html)

[graciegirl]

And I'm sure you already know the answer to your question. For the wealthiest of the wealthy, for the 1% and the 0.1% the very best health care in the world is here. So if cost is absolutely not a concern to the health care consumer, come here and spend a lot of money for a likely very good outcome. Mick didn't fly here on Spirit airlines in a middle seat in his Walmart jeans either. No one is arguing that the quality of care in the US for those with excellent insurance and no problems with copays and coinsurance and out of pocket deductibles is very good. The discussion about whether we need to rework our health care payment system is about regular Americans with regular jobs and mortgages for whom the copays and the deductibles and the coinsurance are ruinous.
Those living in the Villages are not typical Americans. You are getting your health care for very low cost. You are very wealthy with retirement savings, pensions, large IRAs etc.
Most Americans, yes most, do not have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/60-percent-of-millennials-cant-cover-a-1000-dollar-emergency.html)

I think the majority of people living in The Villages are far from well off. I think they have carefully saved and carefully planned and stringently sacrificed to live here. There are indeed wealthy people living here as well. One of the things I like most about this place is that no one seems concerned about how much money other people have or don't have.

There are all kinds of fairy tales about socialized medicine and education in this world. For instance, College education is free in Austria, IF you are smart enough to get in.

Admission requirements for studies at university in Austria (https://www.studyineurope.eu/study-in-austria/admission-requirements)

[villagesglfr1]

Will not happen in this generation. Why, the focus is on the wrong side of the equation. Health Insurance is expensive because health care costs are expensive. Those " Other " Countries who have Free health Care also have taxes at 50 % or higher. most cases medical school is free and Drs are paid a set salary. The foundation of those health care systems are far different then graduating with Medical School debt, average is near $500,000, paying malpractice insurance to survive in an aggressive Litigious USA, a For profit system based largely on a fee for service, medical costs are not transparent, predictable, consistent or challenged by common market forces of competition. The list goes on for the cost of health care that is out of control. Lastly, Big Pharma, Big Hospital, Big Dr Lobbyist will buy the votes needed to bury any changes that will effect $$$$$. What Say You Rick Scott ?? Stay Healthy !

[npwalters]

Here is the fact that most people don't consider when discussing universal health care. It works - sort of- in countries that have a population in which most adults are productive and pay their version of income tax and (usually) a value added tax.

I cant work in the US where only about half of the citizens actually pay income tax and there is no VAT. There just aren't enough rich folks around to pay the cost. Latest estimate from Sen Warren is 57 Trillion over 10 years that she claims will be paid by the rich and corporations.

[jebartle]

And I'm sure you already know the answer to your question. For the wealthiest of the wealthy, for the 1% and the 0.1% the very best health care in the world is here. So if cost is absolutely not a concern to the health care consumer, come here and spend a lot of money for a likely very good outcome. Mick didn't fly here on Spirit airlines in a middle seat in his Walmart jeans either. No one is arguing that the quality of care in the US for those with excellent insurance and no problems with copays and coinsurance and out of pocket deductibles is very good. The discussion about whether we need to rework our health care payment system is about regular Americans with regular jobs and mortgages for whom the copays and the deductibles and the coinsurance are ruinous.
Those living in the Villages are not typical Americans. You are getting your health care for very low cost. You are very wealthy with retirement savings, pensions, large IRAs etc.
Most Americans, yes most, do not have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/60-percent-of-millennials-cant-cover-a-1000-dollar-emergency.html)

And in addition, there are those with pre-existing conditions with little or no insurance, until ACA was introduced, but those benefits have dwindled as we speak!

[perrjojo]

Why don’t we make more doctors? 12 years to graduate high school. 4 years of medical school 2 to 4 years residency and 2 years internship. 20-22 years of education, go into debt at least $100,000 to open an office and that pay outrageous malpractice insurance...I could go.

[jebartle]

Will not happen in this generation. Why, the focus is on the wrong side of the equation. Health Insurance is expensive because health care costs are expensive. Those " Other " Countries who have Free health Care also have taxes at 50 % or higher. most cases medical school is free and Drs are paid a set salary. The foundation of those health care systems are far different then graduating with Medical School debt, average is near $500,000, paying malpractice insurance to survive in an aggressive Litigious USA, a For profit system based largely on a fee for service, medical costs are not transparent, predictable, consistent or challenged by common market forces of competition. The list goes on for the cost of health care that is out of control. Lastly, Big Pharma, Big Hospital, Big Dr Lobbyist will buy the votes needed to bury any changes that will effect $$$$$. What Say You Rick Scott ?? Stay Healthy !

:bigbow:

[manaboutown]

Medical malpractice insurance premiums are ridiculously high in the US which of course dramatically drives up the costs of medical care for which the consumer ultimately pays. Thank the tort bar. Malpractice awards are capped at reasonable sums in most countries.

[Number 10 GI]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

I don't know where you got the information that Germany has universal healthcare but it is incorrect. My wife was born in Germany and all her family live there. In Germany if you work you are required to buy healthcare insurance, it is deducted from your pay. You can select the level of coverage and deductibles but there is a difference in premiums depending on coverage. The higher the coverage and lower the deductibles the higher the premium. If someone is unemployed, indigent or disabled there is health care for those people provided by the government. Many years ago it used to be there was universal "free" medical care in Germany but it became too expensive and laws were changed to require working people to buy insurance.
I've posted this before, my brother-in-law pays 50% taxes on his annual income, there is a VAT of 20% on everything you purchase, gasoline is close to $7 a gallon, and he also has to pay an income tax at the end of the year.
Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

[Number 10 GI]

And I'm sure you already know the answer to your question. For the wealthiest of the wealthy, for the 1% and the 0.1% the very best health care in the world is here. So if cost is absolutely not a concern to the health care consumer, come here and spend a lot of money for a likely very good outcome. Mick didn't fly here on Spirit airlines in a middle seat in his Walmart jeans either. No one is arguing that the quality of care in the US for those with excellent insurance and no problems with copays and coinsurance and out of pocket deductibles is very good. The discussion about whether we need to rework our health care payment system is about regular Americans with regular jobs and mortgages for whom the copays and the deductibles and the coinsurance are ruinous.
Those living in the Villages are not typical Americans. You are getting your health care for very low cost. You are very wealthy with retirement savings, pensions, large IRAs etc.
Most Americans, yes most, do not have enough savings to cover a $1,000 emergency. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/60-percent-of-millennials-cant-cover-a-1000-dollar-emergency.html)

Based on what you said universal healthcare in the UK is inferior to the system in the US. Doesn't say much for the idea of universal healthcare if it can't provide top level medical care. I had coronary artery by-pass surgery at Valderbilt Hospital in Nashville which is a nationally recognized leader in cardiac care. I couldn't pay Mick Jager's dry cleaning bill but I received top notch care. Is our system perfect, no, but neither is theirs.

[Number 10 GI]

I have several friends living in Canada, France and The UK. I have spoken to each one of them about their system, and they love it. Their systems are more of a social democracy, and as I understand it, they are still market based. Yes, they pay higher taxes, but I wonder if anyone did a cost comparison between the amount of taxes paid vs. the cost of insurance. Just yesterday I had to pay $100 for a generic drug, because of the donut hole system. And it seems most dentists don't take insurance, or they don't take UHC insurance, and so we just had to pay over $700 for an initial visit.

My wife has spoke with a few Canadian citizens and they said their medical system worked great, if you were healthy and young. For older, sicker people it wasn't so great. For expensive diagnostic tests such as CAT scans, MRI, and other similar tests there is a waiting period. A person can't just get those tests done the next day like here. If you are really at risk in the doctor's opinion a patient can have the test done earlier, but it requires the doctor to make a judgement call as to how urgent it needs to be done. Then that is then reviewed by someone in the hierarchy to make their determination how urgent it is. How much do you trust a doctor's best guess as to how sick you are, based on no test results to back up his best guess?

[kathyspear]

Latest estimate from Sen Warren is 57 Trillion over 10 years that she claims will be paid by the rich and corporations.

Based on what I read on one of the MSM news sites, her plan assumes a rollback of the Trump tax cuts which means middle income people WILL pay more in taxes. She might not see a "tax cut rollback" as a tax increase, but anybody with a brain knows it is.

She also wants to pay all doctors at Medicare rates. Many doctors don't take Medicare at all and some take a limited number of Medicare patients because Medicare reimbursements are so pathetic. So some doctors, especially highly paid, in-high-demand ones, will ONLY take cash patients (meaning wealthier people, who can afford to pay cash for treatment).

Also, many people who might otherwise go into medicine will no longer be willing to spend 10 or 15 years of their life to become a physician at which point they will owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in school loans and make a fraction of what doctors used to make. After all, anyone who can get through medical school can become a vet, a CPA, a software developer, or any number of other things and not have their income limited by the government.

Our medical system needs some help but her plan is not the way to do it.

kathy

[retiredguy123]

For those that don't know what 57 trillion dollars is, it would more than double the current Federal budget. So, if it were paid for across the board, everyone who pays taxes would need to pay more than two times what they are now paying, and, even then, the annual deficit would increase from 1 trillion per year to 2 trillion per year.

[Number 10 GI]

Instead of tearing down the system we now have, which isn't perfect by any means, and replacing it with a system with it's own flaws, lets fix the problems with what we have now. Do you even realize the chaos and disruption that would occur if we eliminated the current system and tried to establish a new one? I don't even want to think about it.

[npwalters]

Based on what I read on one of the MSM news sites, her plan assumes a rollback of the Trump tax cuts which means middle income people WILL pay more in taxes. She might not see a "tax cut rollback" as a tax increase, but anybody with a brain knows it is.

She also wants to pay all doctors at Medicare rates. Many doctors don't take Medicare at all and some take a limited number of Medicare patients because Medicare reimbursements are so pathetic. So some doctors, especially highly paid, in-high-demand ones, will ONLY take cash patients (meaning wealthier people, who can afford to pay cash for treatment).

Also, many people who might otherwise go into medicine will no longer be willing to spend 10 or 15 years of their life to become a physician at which point they will owe hundreds of thousands of dollars in school loans and make a fraction of what doctors used to make. After all, anyone who can get through medical school can become a vet, a CPA, a software developer, or any number of other things and not have their income limited by the government.

Our medical system needs some help but her plan is not the way to do it.

kathy

I agree with all you say. Just quoting what Warren has said to illustrate the potential cost and - not that I believe it or endorse it.

[Northwoods]

I have worked with people from Europe and Canada. They love their healthcare system. In a perfect world, Universal Healthcare is a great solution. But, you have to be willing to accept the "cost." Countries with universal healthcare don't have the defense budget we have. Plus, don't be naive and think corporations and wealthy individuals will just "get taxed more and carry the burden." Corporations will move their HQ overseas. Wealthy individuals will either move to another country or find new tax shelters. How many corporations/wealthy individuals pay no taxes now. Do you honestly think that will change?
What I would hate to see is a two tiered system... most of us are under a universal healthcare system, and the wealthy are able to access physicians who have opted out of the universal system.

[Two Bills]

Here in UK, our youngest daughter was referred, had all tests etc. was diagnosed, and started treatment for breast cancer in under three weeks.
She has now been clear for past seven years.

This year my wife has been waiting eight months to see an eye specialist for her cataracts. Two appointments were cancelled days before they were due, and the next available date was in mid December.
We decided to pay for private treatment, and saw the specialist four days after the initial call.
We could have had the first cataract removed next week, seven days from first consultation, but it was too close to our departure to US. for any follow ups required.
We have booked to have the surgery done seven days after we return next year from our winter stay in TV.

Treatment with a Universal Healthcare system is good, but has it's flaws.
People are living longer, and the lists get longer each year.
It is not good for the elderly with age related problems, eg. hip, knee replacement, eye surgery. Waiting lists are long.
The system consumes money, and is Admininistration top heavy.
Most finance seems to be sucked into Admin, before reaching the front line.
Overhaul is desperately needed, but our NHS is a political hot potatoe, and both sides are loathe to take the step to do so.
So Governments keeps throwing money at it, basicly sticking plasters, instead of major surgery.

Liken it to gun laws in USA!!

[Madelaine Amee]

I would like to see some of our Canadian residents weigh in on this subject.

[Craig Vernon]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

I hope not. In my experiences at least the Canadian system sends thousands to the United States for care due to lack of equipment. Wait times for MRI or other routine issues here can take months if not years if the government decides it isn't urgent. They also pay three taxes on everything to pay for it. Boo!

[PersonalChoice]

Competition will keep costs down and increase quality. Insurance companies should be allowed to sell policies in other states, and groups of people/businesses should be allowed to negotiate insurance rates and coverage across state lines. This is what the commerce clause in the U.S. Constitution addresses. The Trump administration, along with Sen. Rand Paul, is addressing these issues. Trump and Sen. Rand Paul lead the way on healthcare reform (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/trump-and-sen-rand-paul-lead-the-way-on-healthcare-reform)

[anothersteve]

Liken it to gun laws in USA!!

Now was that comment really necessary? :ohdear:

Steve

[retiredguy123]

Competition will keep costs down and increase quality. Insurance companies should be allowed to sell policies in other states, and groups of people/businesses should be allowed to negotiate insurance rates and coverage across state lines. This is what the commerce clause in the U.S. Constitution addresses. The Trump administration, along with Sen. Rand Paul, is addressing these issues. Trump and Sen. Rand Paul lead the way on healthcare reform (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/trump-and-sen-rand-paul-lead-the-way-on-healthcare-reform)
I totally agree. But, it is amazing to me how many people believe that the opposite is true. They think that turning over health care to the Federal Government and eliminating competition will result in more efficiency and lower cost. Having worked as an Inspector General in the Federal Government, I observed what happens when you turn over billions of taxpayer dollars to Government employees. There is enormous waste. The money gets wasted because many of them don't view it as real money that hard working people actually worked for and earned. It becomes like Monopoly money to them.

[Carla B]

So, how does Medicare fit in this discussion? Should it be abandoned and all aged 65 and over be forced to buy private insurance on the market place, if they could get it? That would surely help solve the budget deficit.

[Fredster]

I totally agree. But, it is amazing to me how many people believe that the opposite is true. They think that turning over health care to the Federal Government and eliminating competition will result in more efficiency and lower cost. Having worked as an Inspector General in the Federal Government, I observed what happens when you turn over billions of taxpayer dollars to Government employees. There is enormous waste. The money gets wasted because many of them don't view it as real money that hard working people actually worked for and earned. It becomes like Monopoly money to them.

I think everyone should work in a Federal Government agency for a period of time in their lives,
then they might have a quite different outlook on government run healthcare when they see the inefficiency and waste!

[Two Bills]

Now was that comment really necessary? :ohdear:

Steve

Not realy necessary, but made to show that certain subjects cannot be adressed easily, and without huge political and social repercussions.

[Nucky]

It's NEVER going to happen in our lifetime or our children's lifetime or their children's lifetime! Relax it's all just a talking point to get elected.

How are you going to pay for this? Homina Homina - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wK9odsWwfIo)

Relax! it's a Big Zero!

[manaboutown]

I think everyone should work in a Federal Government agency for a period of time in their lives,
then they might have a quite different outlook on government run healthcare when they see the inefficiency and waste!

I did and it was mind blowing how money was pointlessly peed away for nothing and many employees diddled away their time, counting the days until they could retire.

[retiredguy123]

I did and it was mind blowing how money was pointlessly peed away for nothing and many employees diddled away their time, counting the days until they could retire.
I agree. I remember one agency I visited where they reviewed claims for welfare, and they actually had a motto, "WHEN IN DOUBT, SHELL IT OUT". This was no joke. The employees were instructed that, if a welfare applicant could not prove their eligibilty, the employee was required to give them the welfare benefit. After all, it is only taxpayer money, and we have plenty of it to give away. Many applicants knew this and were coached to pretend to not speak English.

Another U. S. Army office I inspected, had hundreds of new Dell desktop computers and printers stacked up in the hallways, and another hundred or so Dell laptops stored in a stock room. When I asked about these, I was told that it was a good way to spend their excess budget money at the end of the year, so they could get the same funding or more next year. This wasteful spending happens almost every year in many Federal Government offices.

I have no doubt that a Government health care system would be operated the same way.

[Fredster]

In order to better deal with healthcare,
maybe the first step would be to get our Federal Government in sound fiscal shape!
In my opinion, growing an inefficient and wasteful government is not the answer.

[perrjojo]

If I recall correctly the government is in charge of VA hospitals. How has that been working for Vetrans?

[canyonblue]

I think everyone should work in a Federal Government agency for a period of time in their lives,
then they might have a quite different outlook on government run healthcare when they see the inefficiency and waste!

If the government had to operate like a corporation with profit/loss accountabilities then maybe it could work. Instead it operates like a drunken sailor on leave and has no accountability on where the money goes. Just saying "government run" anything is enough to make me never want to see the idea at all.

[HimandMe]

I have several friends living in Canada, France and The UK. I have spoken to each one of them about their system, and they love it. Their systems are more of a social democracy, and as I understand it, they are still market based. Yes, they pay higher taxes, but I wonder if anyone did a cost comparison between the amount of taxes paid vs. the cost of insurance. Just yesterday I had to pay $100 for a generic drug, because of the donut hole system. And it seems most dentists don't take insurance, or they don't take UHC insurance, and so we just had to pay over $700 for an initial visit.

Canada’s program began in the sixties. I don’t know if you can compare it to 2019. It has universal healthcare but I wouldn’t call it a socialist country. Taxes are higher... in a country with few people... if you have low-income and under 65, it is a good basic system. Otherwise additional insurance is required. The GST, goods and services tax, lowered prices to a point but it affects low income workers the most. Gas had always been high, like Europe, but less, even though there are so many resources in Alberta. Meds are much cheaper, even half what we pay. Many doctors left as they put a cap on earnings. Many RNs lost their jobs to less qualified help due I think to try and keep some doctors wages, and other expenses. Still, most like it. It’s not perfect. Unlike here 80% of the doctors are primary care GPs. Here, I believe most have specialized (for bigger bucks?) and 80% are specialists who only look at one part of the body. I won’t comment on pharmaceutical companies here, IMHO, a basic healthcare plus the option of purchasing insurance for other than basic needs seems good. Socialized anything is a risk iMHO and needs to be watched carefully. Look at socialization around the world, it’s a sad story and the reason Canada decentralized government in many areas. Yet, now with Trudeau back in, there is fear in many Canadians. Big government means less freedom and it is clearly seen in Canada’s healthcare and in other countries.

[HimandMe]

I hope not. In my experiences at least the Canadian system sends thousands to the United States for care due to lack of equipment. Wait times for MRI or other routine issues here can take months if not years if the government decides it isn't urgent. They also pay three taxes on everything to pay for it. Boo!

I remember reading about Canada having one expensive diagnostic equipment, the only one in Canada, whereas most hospitals of size in the USA had them years before. Canada is a small country population wise 1/10th of the USA.

[billethkid]

If the government had to operate like a corporation with profit/loss accountabilities then maybe it could work. Instead it operates like a drunken sailor on leave and has no accountability on where the money goes. Just saying "government run" anything is enough to make me never want to see the idea at all.

The most valuable job attribute all elected federal and domestic positions enjoy?.....NO ACCOUNTABILITY!

[NotGolfer]

I met a woman who was renting here from Canada a few years back. Her husband developed a medical emergency and was hospitalized for much of their time here. She raved about the hospital and care. Said our hospital (get ready for it) was like a luxuary hotel. I'd not yet been in it so was expecting....oh.I.don't.know....something like from a movie?!!! Also...just today I heard commentary from a radio program where the guest spoke of the what the cost here would be for UHC and it's ridiculous. Someone else in this thread also said it...it would be 2 Trillion dollars and yes...."they" would expect the wealthy and corporations to foot the bill. Really???? I also agree not to let the government have the lead on this as it would become something of a nightmare. IF you are young and productive it "might" work but if you are old and sick....not so much.

[manaboutown]

If it happens prepare to wait, especially if you have cancer. NHS Key Statistics: England, October 2019 - Commons Library briefing - UK Parliament (https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7281)

[mikemalloy]

Why do we try to compare ourselves with other countries. How many of them have over 20 million undocumented individuals "living in the shadows" and not paying taxes?
I visited Cuba last year. Our guide was boasting about their free health care. Considering we were told to bring Kleenex with us because many Cuban bathrooms don't have toilet paper I didn't think that they had much to boast about. If a Cuban owns a car, it's because he had relatives in the US send him enough money to buy it. There once beautiful neighborhoods are now overgrown and in disrepair. But, they don't have to pay for health care. It's amazing Americans aren't trying to relocate there.
"

[Bucco]

Why do we try to compare ourselves with other countries. How many of them have over 20 million undocumented individuals "living in the shadows" and not paying taxes?
I visited Cuba last year. Our guide was boasting about their free health care. Considering we were told to bring Kleenex with us because many Cuban bathrooms don't have toilet paper I didn't think that they had much to boast about. If a Cuban owns a car, it's because he had relatives in the US send him enough money to buy it. There once beautiful neighborhoods are now overgrown and in disrepair. But, they don't have to pay for health care. It's amazing Americans aren't trying to relocate there.
"

Basically, you lay the blame for whatever regarding healthcare. With a blanket, and believe me, taxes are not the answers, even if your statement was true.

With very little research, I offer the following and it is easy to research, but more on that later
---------------------
"Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[2][3][4][5] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[6][7][8][9] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[10] Sanctuary cities—which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally—have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[11][12] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[13][14][11]"
--------------------------https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States


That responds to your blanket blaming of immigrants, but I agree that our immigration needs work, but talking is not something we do any longer

Healthcare can be resolved, but we keep being promised alternatives but never see them.. We HAD a plan that nobody will disagree needed work, and instead of resolving the issue, we are striving to dismay it, and it seems resolvable if we really cared.

I was shocked in reading the thread on "Medicare part D" and wonder why we, the voters don't demand answers. Seems to me that the situation described there is resolvable by elected officials of any party, and hopefully by both.

We talk in such generalities, demand no consequences for those responsible for making the laws. We don't even demand they talk.

I suggest it is all fixable, IF anyone wants to.

I was vocal and loud in my opposition to Obamacare, but I naively believed those who said it would be adjusted, etc and they were not telling the truth.

[eyc234]

How about going after the $6 billion (yes B) in fraud that occurs in the medicare/Medicaid systems. Go after that and then look at fixing the med system in this country. Punish the perpetrators to the max and increase the penalties to reduce/eliminate the fraud. You can hire more people to audit and put people to work.

[Aces4]

Basically, you lay the blame for whatever regarding healthcare. With a blanket, and believe me, taxes are not the answers, even if your statement was true.

With very little research, I offer the following and it is easy to research, but more on that later
---------------------
"Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[2][3][4][5] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[6][7][8][9] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[10] Sanctuary cities—which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally—have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[11][12] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[13][14][11]"
--------------------------https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States


That responds to your blanket blaming of immigrants, but I agree that our immigration needs work, but talking is not something we do any longer

Healthcare can be resolved, but we keep being promised alternatives but never see them.. We HAD a plan that nobody will disagree needed work, and instead of resolving the issue, we are striving to dismay it, and it seems resolvable if we really cared.

I was shocked in reading the thread on "Medicare part D" and wonder why we, the voters don't demand answers. Seems to me that the situation described there is resolvable by elected officials of any party, and hopefully by both.

We talk in such generalities, demand no consequences for those responsible for making the laws. We don't even demand they talk.

I suggest it is all fixable, IF anyone wants to.

I was vocal and loud in my opposition to Obamacare, but I naively believed those who said it would be adjusted, etc and they were not telling the truth.

So if I understand this claim, with which I don’t agree, we are lucky to have paid out $18,500,000,000. in reported medical care for illegals in 2017 alone not to mention the additional housing, food, schooling, etc. paid for by the American taxpayer. (Per Forbes...). Yet, many American citizens long for such “free” services.

Numbers can be skewed to make it look like this is a great deal. It’s not, we need American citizens living within the laws for everyone and not a subset of standards for some people living off hard working Americans.

[Bucco]

So if I understand this claim, with which I don’t agree, we are lucky to have paid out $18,500,000,000. in reported medical care for illegals in 2017 alone not to mention the additional housing, food, schooling, etc. paid for by the American taxpayer. (Per Forbes...). Yet, many American citizens long for such “free” services.

Numbers can be skewed to make it look like this is a great deal. It’s not, we need American citizens living within the laws for everyone and not a subset of standards for some people living off hard working Americans.

Yeah, would it not be great if all American citizens lived within the laws, and everyone lived up to the same standard ?

I digress...you may have a point, but guess what.....our "leaders will not iscuss it. Refuse to. Lots of issues surrounding immigration and health care, LOTS, but we only aim one way.

Get used to it.....I mean the lack of any discussion, the need for something constructive that has unintended consequences. Sometimes, I marvel at the complete lack of caring in this country.

Again, you may have good points, but immigration is NOT the cause of our very serious healthcare problem.

But, we certainly agree that EVERY BODY should live up to the same standards and abide by the law.

[Aces4]

Yeah, would it not be great if all American citizens lived within the laws, and everyone lived up to the same standard ?

I digress...you may have a point, but guess what.....our "leaders will not iscuss it. Refuse to. Lots of issues surrounding immigration and health care, LOTS, but we only aim one way.

Get used to it.....I mean the lack of any discussion, the need for something constructive that has unintended consequences. Sometimes, I marvel at the complete lack of caring in this country.

Again, you may have good points, but immigration is NOT the cause of our very serious healthcare problem.

But, we certainly agree that EVERY BODY should live up to the same standards and abide by the law.

Agreed, the conversation has been a non-starter for too long. There is constant talk of decreasing Medicare coverage to help with the shortfall but $18 and a half billion to $20 billion a year would go along way toward shoring it up.

How long will the American people tolerate lack of action, who knows?

[anothersteve]

Basically, you lay the blame for whatever regarding healthcare. With a blanket, and believe me, taxes are not the answers, even if your statement was true.

With very little research, I offer the following and it is easy to research, but more on that later
---------------------
"Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[2][3][4][5] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[6][7][8][9] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[10] Sanctuary cities—which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally—have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[11][12] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[13][14][11]"
--------------------------https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

That responds to your blanket blaming of immigrants,

No it does not.... "research shows"? whose "research"? And in your very words " With very little research, I offer the following"
That crap is spewed from Wikipedia...where is your proof in links? Let me warn you that for every link you "prove" those wikipedia points, I can post just as many links to disprove.

[kathyspear]

I visited Cuba last year. Our guide was boasting about their free health care. Considering we were told to bring Kleenex with us because many Cuban bathrooms don't have toilet paper I didn't think that they had much to boast about. If a Cuban owns a car, it's because he had relatives in the US send him enough money to buy it. There once beautiful neighborhoods are now overgrown and in disrepair. But, they don't have to pay for health care. It's amazing Americans aren't trying to relocate there.
"

This might be zapped for being off topic, but FWIW: We did a cruise that visited Havana before those trips were stopped. I have been to many poor Caribbean islands but Cuba was the most depressing place I have ever visited. Very sad.

k.

[Topspinmo]

Make more doctors ..You can't tell me that in a country the size of the United States we don't have millions of people that are qualified to be doctors today. Why is it we have to go to other countries to import doctors to come and work here at big salaries. If I go to India I'm quite sure if i go to a doctor he will not have america accent. Or came from the USA to practice in India. Stop with the baloney the AMA Controls the amount of doctors being produced in the United States and keeps it low so it is really no competition. So as all the experts claim that competition always lowers the price of everything let's make more hospitals produce more doctors. I'm really not quite sure that would work either as I look and see how many lawyers are produced in this country and still they charge a high price. Least the doctor has to go to school for many years to get his doctorates to bring and become an M.D. where real estate salespeople get 6% to do nothing.

IMO, Well for one malpractice insurance, USA full of ambulance chasing lawyers. USA invaded by foreign doctors scamming the system with test after test after test to run up the bill, you’re trumped up health problems require several medications which another way scam the system. They stay few years then move back to India live like kings or escape fraud.

[HimandMe]

I think Germany woke up and their healthcare coverage for those who cannot afford it and insurance for the rest (hopefully at reasonable prices works.. Total socialist healthcare with a country with so many not paying taxes and those in congress saying free this, free that and you don’t even need to work shouldn’t make sense to anyone. Kids in colleges promoting such things should go live in their idealized political country and survive for one year there, then talk. That is not to say there is not a system that would work here.

Since on this thread there is comparison of other countries then read this.

This was just sent to me...probably easy to confirm:

Venezuela Time Line

1992 it became 3rd riches country in hemisphere (think of that a minute)
1997 It because 2nd largest purchaser of F-150
2001 Voted for Socialist President (income inequality)
2004 Private HEALTHCARE is completely socialized
2007 All private education becomes “free”
2009 All private ownership of hand guns banned
2012 Bernie Sanders praises their “American Dream”
2014 Opposition leaders are imprisoned
2016 Food / healthcare shortages become widespread
2017 CONSTITUTION and elections are suspended
2019 Unarmed citizens are massacred by their own country

It took only one generation of progressive leadership to plunge this country into Civil War.

[mikemalloy]

Basically, you lay the blame for whatever regarding healthcare. With a blanket, and believe me, taxes are not the answers, even if your statement was true.

With very little research, I offer the following and it is easy to research, but more on that later
---------------------
"Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy/contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[2][3][4][5] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[6][7][8][9] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[10] Sanctuary cities—which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally—have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[11][12] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[13][14][11]"
--------------------------https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States


That responds to your blanket blaming of immigrants, but I agree that our immigration needs work, but talking is not something we do any longer

Healthcare can be resolved, but we keep being promised alternatives but never see them.. We HAD a plan that nobody will disagree needed work, and instead of resolving the issue, we are striving to dismay it, and it seems resolvable if we really cared.

I was shocked in reading the thread on "Medicare part D" and wonder why we, the voters don't demand answers. Seems to me that the situation described there is resolvable by elected officials of any party, and hopefully by both.

We talk in such generalities, demand no consequences for those responsible for making the laws. We don't even demand they talk.

I suggest it is all fixable, IF anyone wants to.

I was vocal and loud in my opposition to Obamacare, but I naively believed those who said it would be adjusted, etc and they were not telling the truth.
So you found a "study" that claims how wonderful things are with border crashers. Here's another.

New FAIR Study: Illegal Immigration Costs $116 billion Annually
September 27, 2017

|

IRLI Staff

Brunt of Costs Fall on State and Local Taxpayers



(Washington, D.C.) - Illegal immigration to the U.S. costs federal, state and local taxpayers a staggering net cost of $116 billion a year - an increase of some $16 billion compared to previous estimates - according to a new study released by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). The study is the most comprehensive to date on the cost to federal, state and local taxpayers of the nation's 12.5 million illegal immigrants and their 4.2 million citizen children.



Costs Soar



The report, “The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers,” examines the cost of illegal immigration through a detailed analysis of federal, state and local programs that are available to the nation’s illegal immigrant population, their U.S.-born children, or accessed via fraud. The study tallies the impact on education, medical, justice/enforcement, welfare and other government programs. The report notes that the $116 billion cost of illegal immigration falls on state and local taxpayers disproportionately – by a ratio of roughly 2 to 1 – with state and local expenditures totaling $88.9 billion and Federal expenditures totaling $45.8 billion, with only approximately $19 billion recouped in taxes.



Taxes Paid Inadequate



The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.



All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid.



On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) third.



At the state and local level, education ($44.4 billion) was by far the largest expense, followed by general public services ($18.5 billion) and medical ($12.1 billion).



The study also includes cost and tax revenue estimates per state. The top three states based on total cost to state taxpayers for illegal immigrants and their children: California ($23 billion); Texas ($10.9 billion), and New York ($7.5 billion).

I do not believe that any countries that have free health care extend coverage to non citizens. They don't have the economic stress we have from porous borders.

[Bucco]

. Total socialist healthcare with a country with so many not paying taxes and those in congress saying free this, free that and you don’t even need to work shouldn’t make sense to anyone. Kids in colleges promoting such things should go live in their idealized political country and survive for one year there, then talk. That is not to say there is not a system that would work here.

Since on this thread there is comparison of other countries then read this.

This was just sent to me...probably easy to confirm:

Venezuela Time Line

1992 it became 3rd riches country in hemisphere (think of that a minute)
1997 It because 2nd largest purchaser of F-150
2001 Voted for Socialist President (income inequality)
2004 Private HEALTHCARE is completely socialized
2007 All private education becomes “free”
2009 All private ownership of hand guns banned
2012 Bernie Sanders praises their “American Dream”
2014 Opposition leaders are imprisoned
2016 Food / healthcare shortages become widespread
2017 CONSTITUTION and elections are suspended
2019 Unarmed citizens are massacred by their own country

It took only one generation of progressive leadership to plunge this country into Civil War.

Yes, you can confirm, an maybe or should have before posting this.

Venezuela refused to admit they had problem when oil income was reduced. Thy welcomed an authoritarian leader who eventually became butal, and that in concert with not acknowledging the economics at play.

I don't think a Bernie Snders jab in the middle makes this a serious anthology.

[Bucco]

So you found a "study" that claims how wonderful things are with border crashers. Here's another.

New FAIR Study: Illegal Immigration Costs $116 billion Annually
September 27, 2017

|

IRLI Staff

Brunt of Costs Fall on State and Local Taxpayers



(Washington, D.C.) - Illegal immigration to the U.S. costs federal, state and local taxpayers a staggering net cost of $116 billion a year - an increase of some $16 billion compared to previous estimates - according to a new study released by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). The study is the most comprehensive to date on the cost to federal, state and local taxpayers of the nation's 12.5 million illegal immigrants and their 4.2 million citizen children.



Costs Soar



The report, “The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers,” examines the cost of illegal immigration through a detailed analysis of federal, state and local programs that are available to the nation’s illegal immigrant population, their U.S.-born children, or accessed via fraud. The study tallies the impact on education, medical, justice/enforcement, welfare and other government programs. The report notes that the $116 billion cost of illegal immigration falls on state and local taxpayers disproportionately – by a ratio of roughly 2 to 1 – with state and local expenditures totaling $88.9 billion and Federal expenditures totaling $45.8 billion, with only approximately $19 billion recouped in taxes.



Taxes Paid Inadequate



The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.



All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid.



On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) third.



At the state and local level, education ($44.4 billion) was by far the largest expense, followed by general public services ($18.5 billion) and medical ($12.1 billion).



The study also includes cost and tax revenue estimates per state. The top three states based on total cost to state taxpayers for illegal immigrants and their children: California ($23 billion); Texas ($10.9 billion), and New York ($7.5 billion).

I do not believe that any countries that have free health care extend coverage to non citizens. They don't have the economic stress we have from porous borders.

I thought I was clear that my lesson was ONLY because of your referring to immigration as the problem with heath care.

If blaming these folks makes you feel good, go for it.

But, if you want to discuss healthcare, you are on a wrong street.

Talk to those who are elected as to why, despite loud protestation, they ignore the problem of healthcare.

This does not mean I favor one form or another....it simply means when our leaders begin to discuss it, we are moving in the right direction on healthcare.

Blaming minorities for everything is just stupid, as we keep jailing those who do not fit the assigned slot

[Aces4]

I thought I was clear that my lesson was ONLY because of your referring to immigration as the problem with heath care.

If blaming these folks makes you feel good, go for it.

But, if you want to discuss healthcare, you are on a wrong street.

Talk to those who are elected as to why, despite loud protestation, they ignore the problem of healthcare.

This does not mean I favor one form or another....it simply means when our leaders begin to discuss it, we are moving in the right direction on healthcare.

Blaming minorities for everything is just stupid, as we keep jailing those who do not fit the assigned slot

This isn’t blaming minorities for everything so that flag doesn’t need to be waved. This is about all of the illegal, non citizens living in the pockets of American citizens.

[Boomer]

Sloooooowly I turn, step by step.

Why does all of this noise have to be in extremes?

A manageable, doable start is to resuscitate the ACA before it is too late. (Yeah. I know. I am repeating myself. I said that a buzillion posts earlier in this thread.)

They are stealthily coming after the protection of pre-existing conditions, the best part of the ACA. The cruelty of taking that protection away makes my skin crawl.

Even though many here are ensconced in Medicare, due to turning 65, surely there must be concern for younger family members and friends — and (in my dreams) concern for the overall health of the nation, both literally and figuratively.

Real solutions are there, but fixing healthcare has to be done in steps. Also, all the players have to be at the table, including insurance companies and corporations that make health insurance available to employees.

What happened to critical thinking skills — independent thinking, analytical thinking, realistic solution-seeking thinking?

Pogo was right.

(I gotta stop looking at this thread and make some phone calls to tell the people who could actually do something sensible what to do. uh huh)

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

For all of you who have posted or are going to post that countries with Universal Health Care have poor care, or that their citizens hate it, or that you once met someone from Germany who wished for Americanized health care.. these sorts of questions are regularly asked by pollsters and researchers. You don't hear of citizen movements to scrap universal health care and replace it with private insurance anywhere, not even from the most conservation politicians in Europe. Tweak the system, yes. But copy the USA, no.

2014 US last in health care of 11 Western nations (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-health-care-system-ranks-lowest-in-international-survey/)

2011 U.S. had the highest percentage of respondents who reported (https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/journal-article/2013/apr/analysis-survey-data-11-countries-finds-satisfaction-health) being very confident they would receive effective treatment (34.7%) and also the highest percentage saying they were not at all confident they would (9.2%). The U.S., meanwhile, had the highest percentage of respondents who believed that their health system was in need of complete rebuilding (25.4%).

.

That is completely wrong. I wish people would post links when they make such outrageous claims. There are very slight differences in definitions of live birth.
Sweden uses exactly the same definition as the US. Norway only counts those born at 12 weeks gestation who exhibit any signs of life, that's 3 months into a pregnancy. Finland uses the WHO definition of liveborn "'Liveborn' is the term for a newborn who breathes or shows other signs of life after birth" Our own CDC has looked very closely at infant mortality. Ours is terrible in part due to higher rates of prematurity [itself a reflection of poor prenatal care and poverty] But it is not just more premies


Please, come here and offer thoughts on improving health care for America, but don't make stuff up.

How many of these systems are financially solvent. I hear many stories of them going broke. They are not able to raise enough money through taxes to keep them going. The French system has been on the verge of collapse. I have friends in The UK that defend their system, and then complain that the government is not putting enough money into it. And of course, they always have the same mantra. "Tax the rich more".

The problem with trying to do this in The US is that it can't be paid for if we taxed the top 5% at 100%.

And even if we did, can we trust to government to run a cost efficient system that provides good service? What other government agencies can you think of that are cost efficient and well run?

[rustyp]

To all retirees not in favor of socialized health care we should give up our Medicare and pay for our fair share of health care on the open market like non retirees do. This way we can insure better and freer choices while preserving democracy. Or are we talking about just the other guys not on Medicare?

[Bucco]

Sloooooowly I turn, step by step.

Why does all of this noise have to be in extremes?

A manageable, doable start is to resuscitate the ACA before it is too late. (Yeah. I know. I am repeating myself. I said that a buzillion posts earlier in this thread.)

They are stealthily coming after the protection of pre-existing conditions, the best part of the ACA. The cruelty of taking that protection away makes my skin crawl.

Even though many here are ensconced in Medicare, due to turning 65, surely there must be concern for younger family members and friends — and (in my dreams) concern for the overall health of the nation, both literally and figuratively.

Real solutions are there, but fixing healthcare has to be done in steps. Also, all the players have to be at the table, including insurance companies and corporations that make health insurance available to employees.

What happened to critical thinking skills — independent thinking, analytical thinking, realistic solution-seeking thinking?

Pogo was right.

(I gotta stop looking at this thread and make some phone calls to tell the people who could actually do something sensible what to do. uh huh)

Discussion seems to have been replaced by "blaming" and disregarding anyone else in this country except US and those exactly like US.

ACA was/is not perfect......I was very opposed, BUT I figured that leaders would discuss it openly and make adjustments.

Obvious it was simply destroyed (openly saving the death knell for an election cycle...look it up...its true), and we are told it will be replaced. BY WHAT ?

Nobody talks anymore except about themselves, and of course WHO is to blame, and it is never US who allow this to go on.

[jebartle]

. Total socialist healthcare with a country with so many not paying taxes and those in congress saying free this, free that and you don’t even need to work shouldn’t make sense to anyone. Kids in colleges promoting such things should go live in their idealized political country and survive for one year there, then talk. That is not to say there is not a system that would work here.

Since on this thread there countries then read this.

This was just sent to me...probably easy to confirm:

Venezuela Time Line

1992 it became 3rd riches country in hemisphere (think of that a minute)
1997 It because 2nd largest purchaser of F-150
2001 Voted for Socialist President (income inequality)
2004 Private HEALTHCARE is completely socialized
2007 All private education becomes “free”
2009 All private ownership of hand guns banned
2012 Bernie Sanders praises their “American Dream”
2014 Opposition leaders are imprisoned
2016 Food / healthcare shortages become widespread
2017 CONSTITUTION and elections are suspended
2019 Unarmed citizens are massacred by their own country

It took only one generation of progressive leadership to plunge this country into Civil War.

Reminder of existing US socialism: fire dept, police dept, medicare, social security, to name a few.

[bagboy]

...

[Bucco]

Reminder of existing US socialism: fire dept, police dept, medicare, social security, to name a few.

Wondering where the huge payouts farmers receivd caused by a trade war fits. It dwarfs the amount that both parties agreed to give to automakers to save that industry.

It is a word that is used simply for politics and the true meaning is long gone.

[Mosells]

When we’re a socialist country we’ll have universal health care. Be careful what you wish for my friends, be careful.

[Fredster]

When we’re a socialist country we’ll have universal health care. Be careful what you wish for my friends, be careful.

Yes, everything has a price, of this you can be sure!

[billethkid]

The post did not appear when quoted.....hence

"Reminder of existing US socialism: fire dept, police dept, medicare, social security, to name a few."

My response:

Not really.
All paid for by most of us.

[Bucco]

I fear much of what you folks fear.

My problem is how the word "socialist" is thrown around with absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.

"A Socialist country is a country where the government or the public as a whole has control over the economy. In a socialist country, the producing and dispersing of goods is owned by the government. Socialism is placed in between capitalism and communism."

Is bailing out our banks "socialism"....is the paying of farmers "socialism"....having PUBLIC services paid with taxes..is that "socialism"

YOU are being fed a lot of garbage....you certainly can object to "socialism"...that is your right......CANADA.....Socialism in Canada has a long history and is, along with conservatism and liberalism, a political force in Canada. Those rotten Canadians.

Our country has a constitution, and laws that basically will not allow a move so far as to deem it socialism.

Please know the definition before throwing things around that you do not even understand. Attacks on our constitution and laws are closer to "socialism" than anything you mention.

A health plan partially subsidized might work, but if you are going to be told that it is extreme, then you just do not understand.

We have two bodies of congress that are supposed to talk to each other......we also have lobby groups that spend more money in lobbying than you can even imagine. Gun laws...bill passed, not discussed ...still awaiting any talk.

Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas.

Would it not be nice to have those folks elected to talk to each other and work out compromises ? BUT, we are always talking in such generalities..we label folks in such a general way blacks, whites etc without even knowing much about any of it...then we blame the other side for doing it. AN IDEA......lets try and discuss ISSUES without the labels and accusations.....it USED to work.

[anothersteve]

I fear much of what you folks fear.

My problem is how the word "socialist" is thrown around with absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.

"A Socialist country is a country where the government or the public as a whole has control over the economy. In a socialist country, the producing and dispersing of goods is owned by the government. Socialism is placed in between capitalism and communism."

Is bailing out our banks "socialism"....is the paying of farmers "socialism"....having PUBLIC services paid with taxes..is that "socialism"

YOU are being fed a lot of garbage....you certainly can object to "socialism"...that is your right......CANADA.....Socialism in Canada has a long history and is, along with conservatism and liberalism, a political force in Canada. Those rotten Canadians.

Our country has a constitution, and laws that basically will not allow a move so far as to deem it socialism.

Please know the definition before throwing things around that you do not even understand. Attacks on our constitution and laws are closer to "socialism" than anything you mention.

A health plan partially subsidized might work, but if you are going to be told that it is extreme, then you just do not understand.

We have two bodies of congress that are supposed to talk to each other......we also have lobby groups that spend more money in lobbying than you can even imagine. Gun laws...bill passed, not discussed ...still awaiting any talk.

Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas.

Would it not be nice to have those folks elected to talk to each other and work out compromises ? BUT, we are always talking in such generalities..we label folks in such a general way blacks, whites etc without even knowing much about any of it...then we blame the other side for doing it. AN IDEA......lets try and discuss ISSUES without the labels and accusations.....it USED to work.

:oops:

"Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas."

"E PLURIBUS UNUM" actually means "one from many", or "out of many, one",
not "one of many". Picky I know but.....................a difference in meaning.

[npwalters]

I fear much of what you folks fear.

My problem is how the word "socialist" is thrown around with absolutely no understanding of what you are talking about.

"A Socialist country is a country where the government or the public as a whole has control over the economy. In a socialist country, the producing and dispersing of goods is owned by the government. Socialism is placed in between capitalism and communism."

Is bailing out our banks "socialism"....is the paying of farmers "socialism"....having PUBLIC services paid with taxes..is that "socialism"

YOU are being fed a lot of garbage....you certainly can object to "socialism"...that is your right......CANADA.....Socialism in Canada has a long history and is, along with conservatism and liberalism, a political force in Canada. Those rotten Canadians.

Our country has a constitution, and laws that basically will not allow a move so far as to deem it socialism.

Please know the definition before throwing things around that you do not even understand. Attacks on our constitution and laws are closer to "socialism" than anything you mention.

A health plan partially subsidized might work, but if you are going to be told that it is extreme, then you just do not understand.

We have two bodies of congress that are supposed to talk to each other......we also have lobby groups that spend more money in lobbying than you can even imagine. Gun laws...bill passed, not discussed ...still awaiting any talk.

Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas.

Would it not be nice to have those folks elected to talk to each other and work out compromises ? BUT, we are always talking in such generalities..we label folks in such a general way blacks, whites etc without even knowing much about any of it...then we blame the other side for doing it. AN IDEA......lets try and discuss ISSUES without the labels and accusations.....it USED to work.

Actually I am smart enough to understand. The fact I don't agree does not mean I don't understand. We have subsidized health insurance. It is called ACA or Obamacare.

[jebartle]

Wondering where the huge payouts farmers receivd caused by a trade war fits. It dwarfs the amount that both parties agreed to give to automakers to save that industry.

It is a word that is used simply for politics and the true meaning is long gone.

Automakers loan, paid in full, fact check proves this, another example of government success!

[Bucco]

:oops:

"Rembmer "E PLURIBUS UNUM".....One of many. That applies to our people as well as ideas."

"E PLURIBUS UNUM" actually means "one from many", or "out of many, one",
not "one of many". Picky I know but.....................a difference in meaning.

Thank you so much for correcting me. Important stuff.

Bottom line, it began with one country from 13 states, but has morphed into representing all heritages.

I am sure I am not the first that you had to correct. For me, personally, it represents a country that is a blend of all colors, all religions , all heritages all coming together as one.

That is what I fought for, and for what so many have died for. It has changed recently, and I worry more about that than I do about how I might type it, but thanks for correcting me.

[Bucco]

Automakers loan, paid in full, fact check proves this, another example of government success!

And the banks....

"In total, the government has realized a $116B profit as of October 2, 2019."

That profit from nterest earned.

https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/

Difference is that this was done TOGETHER

[Tom C]

I sure hope that free medical for all and free education for all and free food or all, and free housing for all and free all for all NEVER COMES. That is the definition of socialism and look how that is FAILING all around the globe!

Like nearly all here in TV, I have worked hard and did without MANY things throughout my life. I put away for my retirement. I did without, and went to bed hungry after working hard every day for many years. I paid my dues, while raising my children, giving them the best I could while doing without for myself.

There is no such thing as a “free lunch”. This is how we keep our freedom from an overpowering government. Don’t be fooled into thinking they have YOUR best interest in mind. They (the government) are going to give to THEMSELVES first.

[Topspinmo]

I have several friends living in Canada, France and The UK. I have spoken to each one of them about their system, and they love it. Their systems are more of a social democracy, and as I understand it, they are still market based. Yes, they pay higher taxes, but I wonder if anyone did a cost comparison between the amount of taxes paid vs. the cost of insurance. Just yesterday I had to pay $100 for a generic drug, because of the donut hole system. And it seems most dentists don't take insurance, or they don't take UHC insurance, and so we just had to pay over $700 for an initial visit.

Dentistry’s have their own insurance coverage, if you policy covers dental most likely you pay higher premiums. Otherwise you have buy dental insurance and with most insurance it’s a rip off cause the fine print clauses won’t pay for anything expensive until you’ve paid double or triple for that procedure.

[Bucco]

I sure hope that free medical for all and free education for all and free food or all, and free housing for all and free all for all NEVER COMES. That is the definition of socialism and look how that is FAILING all around the globe!

Like nearly all here in TV, I have worked hard and did without MANY things throughout my life. I put away for my retirement. I did without, and went to bed hungry after working hard every day for many years. I paid my dues, while raising my children, giving them the best I could while doing without for myself.

There is no such thing as a “free lunch”. This is how we keep our freedom from an overpowering government. Don’t be fooled into thinking they have YOUR best interest in mind. They (the government) are going to give to THEMSELVES first.

Where in this wide wide world did you ever come up with such fears ?

From where ?

[Bucco]

Actually I am smart enough to understand. The fact I don't agree does not mean I don't understand. We have subsidized health insurance. It is called ACA or Obamacare.

Glad you are smart, maybe you can explain.......
----------

"The bottom line: cumulatively from 2010 to 2017 the ACA reduced health care spending a total of $2.3 trillion."

"In 2017 alone, health expenditures were $650 billion lower than projected, and kept health care spending under 18 percent of GDP — basically a tad over where it was in 2010 when the ACA was passed. It did all of this while expanding health coverage to more than 20 million previously uninsured Americans.

Compared to the 2010 projections, the government’s Medicare bill in 2017 was 10 percent ($70 billion) less, and spending for Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program was a whopping $250 billion below expectations (partially — but only partially — due to the failure of some states to expand the program). The actuary had predicted in 2010 that employer-sponsored insurance would cost $1.21 trillion in 2017, but it came in at $1.04 trillion, a difference of $170 billion for that year.

Put another way, health care spending in 2017 was $2,000 less per person than it was projected to be. And for the 176 million Americans who have private employer-sponsored insurance, their lower premiums averaged just under $1,000 per person."

The Affordable Care Act has saved billions in health care costs - STAT (https://www.statnews.com/2019/03/22/affordable-care-act-controls-costs/)
-------------------
These are government numbers and confirmed

Guess I need explained how it saved so much, yet is so horrible, and "socialist".

Compared to....oh, there is nothing to compare it to.....sorry. For the record, and you certainly can check my posts (I have been here that long) to see how I opposed it. Maybe still might but it is working and no other plan exists.

[Aces4]

Glad you are smart, maybe you can explain.......
----------

"The bottom line: cumulatively from 2010 to 2017 the ACA reduced health care spending a total of $2.3 trillion."

"In 2017 alone, health expenditures were $650 billion lower than projected, and kept health care spending under 18 percent of GDP — basically a tad over where it was in 2010 when the ACA was passed. It did all of this while expanding health coverage to more than 20 million previously uninsured Americans.

Compared to the 2010 projections, the government’s Medicare bill in 2017 was 10 percent ($70 billion) less, and spending for Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program was a whopping $250 billion below expectations (partially — but only partially — due to the failure of some states to expand the program). The actuary had predicted in 2010 that employer-sponsored insurance would cost $1.21 trillion in 2017, but it came in at $1.04 trillion, a difference of $170 billion for that year.

Put another way, health care spending in 2017 was $2,000 less per person than it was projected to be. And for the 176 million Americans who have private employer-sponsored insurance, their lower premiums averaged just under $1,000 per person."

The Affordable Care Act has saved billions in health care costs - STAT (https://www.statnews.com/2019/03/22/affordable-care-act-controls-costs/)
-------------------
These are government numbers and confirmed

Guess I need explained how it saved so much, yet is so horrible, and "socialist".

Compared to....oh, there is nothing to compare it to.....sorry. For the record, and you certainly can check my posts (I have been here that long) to see how I opposed it. Maybe still might but it is working and no other plan exists.

There is much to compare to in the ACA and it is a poorly thought out plan. Ask the people who lost their health care coverage from their employers and along with the loss of income due to the premiums for poor coverage and large co-pays. Costs should be down, many people are now not seeking necessary services and tests because the expense to them is exorbitant with deductibles, co-pays and non-covered services.

Talk to the people who are under that coverage and get the real feedback.

[Nucky]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

This was the original question from our OP.

I understand it is a hot topic. It Seems like a Yes or No QUESTION. I believe without pointing anyone out specifically which is against the rules of our Forum that Healthcare of some sort is needed immediately by somebody who has the need to be a "Teacher"!

My answer to the OP is a Simple No Way Jack It'll NEVER happen. EVER!

Keep it Simple, NOT HAPPENING! Thank you very much!

[Bucco]

There is much to compare to in the ACA and it is a poorly thought out plan. Ask the people who lost their health care coverage from their employers and along with the loss of income due to the premiums for poor coverage and large co-pays. Costs should be down, many people are now not seeking necessary services and tests because the expense to them is exorbitant with deductibles, co-pays and non-covered services.

Talk to the people who are under that coverage and get the real feedback.

No, I do not need to talk to anyone.

Those elected officials should be talking to each other to fix something that does save health costs, but needs work

Instead, we erase it, one piece at a time just for so..THAT WILL cause oroblems

[Bucco]

Some don't care to discuss health care....not sure why, but keep it simple Jack...whomever that is...
READ, UNDRSTAND, AND KNOW.

Flippant remarks re for those who do not understand, especially do not understand how people suffer as our leaders play games with their healthcare.....offer no positivity, just "cracks".

I feel for so many who have been caught up in a web of "leaders" trying to top each other, rather than trying to help.

Any remarks aimed at a teacher are, not surprisingly, mistimed. I know very little except I understand misinformation when I see it. If suggesting people read and not be subject to "stories" is an attempt to teach...I plead guilty. I plead guilty to wanting to be fully informed on such a vital subject. It does not affect me, but I have seen enough human suffering, and here we have something to fix, but instead get caught up in games and rods.

[Aces4]

No, I do not need to talk to anyone.

Those elected officials should be talking to each other to fix something that does save health costs, but needs work

Instead, we erase it, one piece at a time just for so..THAT WILL cause oroblems

That information is from when that program was established and has nothing to do with the last 4 years. It was weak and unpopular from the get go.

[ColdNoMore]

Even a small amount of intellectual curiosity and doing a modicum of research, will show many of the same arguments against universal or single-payer health care...as there was against establishing Social Security (and later medicare).

So how many of you want to see SS/medicare...go away now? :oops:

Although I doubt I will ever see it, I hope that my children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren's healthcare will eventually become a priority for our country...and a workable system will eventually be established.

I'm pretty sure that no one will ever catch up to us in military spending (since we outspend the NEXT 7 COUNTRIES COMBINED)... so why shouldn't some of that money go toward the health benefit of our fellow American citizens (especially our neglected veterans)? :ohdear:

Click Here (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/blog/2019/07/18/us-spends-more-its-military-176-countries-combined/)

$121.1 billion.

That’s how much more money the United States spends on its military than 144 other countries combined, according to the latest update to available data on military expenditures compiled by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).

That’s not to mention the number by which the United States also outspends the next 7 largest military budgets combined: $40.1 billion.

[Bucco]

That information is from when that program was established and has nothing to do with the last 4 years. It was weak and unpopular from the get go.

Sorry, the info is current, and yes it is now been watered down, but my point is tat it worked....why scrap it without trying to adjust, and leave so many in the dark.

[manaboutown]

Sorry, the info is current, and yes it is now been watered down, but my point is tat it worked....why scrap it without trying to adjust, and leave so many in the dark.

Obamacare is a terrible and costly mess rammed through by the then dominate party without even being read much less debated. It needs to be completely dismantled as soon as practicable.

How Obamacare Became Law - Brian Sussman (https://www.briansussman.com/politics/how-obamacare-became-law/)

'''Unconstitutional''' ObamaCare is deeply flawed, and it'''s time to do away with it | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/unconstitutional-obamacare-is-deeply-flawed-and-its-time-to-do-away-with-it)

[Bucco]

Obamacare is a terrible and costly mess rammed through by the dominate party without even being read much less debated. It needs to be completely dismantled as soon as practicable.

As a poster who tried to stop the conversation said "where are your links to support your statement " ?

The data I supplied was from our government....I did not make it up.

[ColdNoMore]

Obamacare is a terrible and costly mess rammed through by the dominate party without even being read much less debated. It needs to be completely dismantled as soon as practicable.

And replaced...with what?

Let it go back to the way it was...and forget the tens of millions who it's benefited? :oops:

And yes, I understand some are a little worse off, but mostly it is those of us who had upper/top-tier coverage...to begin with.

Compared to those who had nothing previously and at least now have something, I can live with personally losing a little...but helping millions of my fellow citizens.

[anothersteve]

Thank you so much for correcting me. Important stuff.
That is what I fought for, and for what so many have died for. It has changed recently, and I worry more about that than I do about how I might type it, but thanks for correcting me.

You are quite welcome, and thank you for your service.
Words in there true context mean a lot, words out of context, or "rearranged", as is all too often done, by ALL media, groups or persons, to suite an agenda, is a dangerous thing.
That is why I corrected you.
I served also so don't think you are the only one.
Steve

[Bucco]

You are quite welcome, and thank you for your service.
Words in there true context mean a lot, words out of context, or "rearranged", as is all too often done, by ALL media, groups or persons, to suite an agenda, is a dangerous thing.
That is why I corrected you.
I served also so don't think you are the only one.
Steve

I think my only problem with your post is he implication that "rearranging", "ignoring context" ....all forms of mashing truth is reserved for media types.

You and I both know that's not true.

I KNOW about those who serve, and I do not even mention much about myself, but sometimes it simply demonstrates that you have "Been there" and get it. So many, and the count seems to be increasing have forgotten exactly what they stood for and why. We served to move forwRd the American ideal of integrity, truth in serving, and respect. Thanks for your joining those who have served and honored.

[eyc234]

Even a small amount of intellectual curiosity and doing a modicum of research, will show many of the same arguments against universal or single-payer health care...as there was against establishing Social Security (and later medicare).

So how many of you want to see SS/medicare...go away now? :oops:

Although I doubt I will ever see it, I hope that my children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren's healthcare will eventually become a priority for our country...and a workable system will eventually be established.

I'm pretty sure that no one will ever catch up to us in military spending (since we outspend the NEXT 7 COUNTRIES COMBINED)... so why shouldn't some of that money go toward the health benefit of our fellow American citizens (especially our neglected veterans)? :ohdear:

Click Here (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/blog/2019/07/18/us-spends-more-its-military-176-countries-combined/)

Hey Cold, I would have loved to opt out of SS & Medicare. Guarantee I could have done a million times better with my money. Got to retire early and have been on my own dime for healthcare for 12 years. Never calculated SS in my retirement plans so when it goes belly up I will not miss it.

HEALTHCARE
Traveled and lived in 6 different countries on their economies paying our own way and found good and bad in their healthcare systems. But never found one that was free and that if you wanted care in any decent length of time you bought outside coverage. Close friends in each of these country to this day buy upped coverage to lessen delay time and get into certain Dr's and facilities.

As far as the AHCA there is good and bad in there also, just as private insurance has many issues. In AHCA the deductibles are so high that those that do have insurance from the act see no benefit. It was suppose to be portable, state to state, it is not. When we came to Fl we had to apply at BCBS, which we already had and got less coverage for more cost. Also wife has a fantastic maternity plan, lord help me if we need that. On the other side the powers that be in congress spent our money for 6 or 7 yrs voting over and over to repeal something they had about as much chance of repealing as seeing an elephant fly. Then when they had the ability to fix/repeal they had nothing on the plate to present.

This is a highly complicated and far reaching issue with no easy answers. I still want the first thing done is find out and stop the $60 billion in fraud and waste. Stop the bleeding then look for ways to heal the patient. Wheww that was tiring, it is time for The Villages favorite sport, HAPPY HOUR!!!!:MOJE_whot:

[npwalters]

Glad you are smart, maybe you can explain.......
----------

"The bottom line: cumulatively from 2010 to 2017 the ACA reduced health care spending a total of $2.3 trillion."

"In 2017 alone, health expenditures were $650 billion lower than projected, and kept health care spending under 18 percent of GDP — basically a tad over where it was in 2010 when the ACA was passed. It did all of this while expanding health coverage to more than 20 million previously uninsured Americans.

Compared to the 2010 projections, the government’s Medicare bill in 2017 was 10 percent ($70 billion) less, and spending for Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program was a whopping $250 billion below expectations (partially — but only partially — due to the failure of some states to expand the program). The actuary had predicted in 2010 that employer-sponsored insurance would cost $1.21 trillion in 2017, but it came in at $1.04 trillion, a difference of $170 billion for that year.

Put another way, health care spending in 2017 was $2,000 less per person than it was projected to be. And for the 176 million Americans who have private employer-sponsored insurance, their lower premiums averaged just under $1,000 per person."

The Affordable Care Act has saved billions in health care costs - STAT (https://www.statnews.com/2019/03/22/affordable-care-act-controls-costs/)
-------------------
These are government numbers and confirmed

Guess I need explained how it saved so much, yet is so horrible, and "socialist".

Compared to....oh, there is nothing to compare it to.....sorry. For the record, and you certainly can check my posts (I have been here that long) to see how I opposed it. Maybe still might but it is working and no other plan exists.

as you accurately stated the "decrease" was compared to a 2010 government ESTIMATE that turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Don't you just hate facts.

[anothersteve]

I think my only problem with your post is he implication that "rearranging", "ignoring context" ....all forms of mashing truth is reserved for media types.
You and I both know that's not true.



"reserved for media types"?

Read my post again, I never said that.
This is what I said;

"Words in there true context mean a lot, words out of context, or "rearranged", as is all too often done, by ALL media, groups or persons, to suite an agenda, is a dangerous thing."
Steve

[Bucco]

as you accurately stated the "decrease" was compared to a 2010 government ESTIMATE that turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Don't you just hate facts.

Really, in those days as I recall, the cost was estimated from zero to more money than exists.

I was one from the beginning who was alarmed at the impact on our deficit. I even used the word I have been criticizing.....socialist. I was really upset about the entire thing.

As much negativity as we see here now alarms me. I was happy to see the savings in healthcare costs that we had. THAT was the goal.

Watching the dismantling of something that did actually work, REALLY benefited so many people, and actually reduce the deficit is really sad because those doing that dismantling are doing it in a very mean spirited way. No reason given......just don't like the guy who got it do, so hurting others seems to be just shrapnel because those folks have increased the deficit so much without even offering help to those who need it.

But, to your point, new things, new estimates and they were really off,although you don't hear anyone talk about that. Might think people deserve good news.

[Bucco]

"reserved for media types"?

Read my post again, I never said that.
This is what I said;

"Words in there true context mean a lot, words out of context, or "rearranged", as is all too often done, by ALL media, groups or persons, to suite an agenda, is a dangerous thing."
Steve

Sorry if I misunderstood. I might be a bit sensitive because of the attacks on the media, which I think are obscene. Reading today about a well known broadcaster who denies saying things, as a video of him saying it PRECISELY as reported runs on the screen.

Just dangerous stuff.

Sorry if I offended you

[anothersteve]

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Sorry if I offended you



I'm not that easily offended, but apology(s) accepted.
Steve

[mikemalloy]

I thought I was clear that my lesson was ONLY because of your referring to immigration as the problem with heath care.

If blaming these folks makes you feel good, go for it.

But, if you want to discuss healthcare, you are on a wrong street.

Talk to those who are elected as to why, despite loud protestation, they ignore the problem of healthcare.

This does not mean I favor one form or another....it simply means when our leaders begin to discuss it, we are moving in the right direction on healthcare.

Blaming minorities for everything is just stupid, as we keep jailing those who do not fit the assigned slot
My original post did not BLAME anyone. It pointed out that our country faces different economic stresses from immigration that other countries do. Canada has a form of universal coverage but they do not provide coverage for people who are in the country illegally. I'm sure that is the same in many if not all of the other countries who have "free" healthcare. Instead of recognizing there might be differences, you immediately accused me of blaming illegals for problems. The fact is we're not like the other countries. Our economy is much more robust for starters. Maybe that's because we don't overburden our taxpayers with universal healthcare.

[Bucco]

My original post did not BLAME anyone. It pointed out that our country faces different economic stresses from immigration that other countries do. Canada has a form of universal coverage but they do not provide coverage for people who are in the country illegally. I'm sure that is the same in many if not all of the other countries who have "free" healthcare. Instead of recognizing there might be differences, you immediately accused me of blaming illegals for problems. The fact is we're not like the other countries. Our economy is much more robust for starters. Maybe that's because we don't overburden our taxpayers with universal healthcare.

I m dumb on this. Can you provide more details on healthcare coverage for illegal immigrants in the US ?

I accuse you of nothing, but not that smart......I apparently misunderstood.

I was not aware of the healthcare coverage for illegals, and trust you will provide me with some reading material.

Thanks

[billethkid]

Many countries and their peoples like many of us here do not support providing a health care system for those who are in the country illegally....taking up residence illegally.

[Bucco]

Many countries and their peoples like many of us here do not support providing a health care system for those who are in the country illegally....taking up residence illegally.

I do not recall anyone on this forum ever supporting what you suggest.

Poster said we already have healthcare for illegal immigrants and I simply asked for more details because I was not aware that illegal immigrants could get healthcare.

Of course, all the savings from ACA would be under stress but that savings seems to be going away anyway.

You misread my post...not supporting, simply wondering where someone felt it existed

[Ben Franklin]

Sorry, the info is current, and yes it is now been watered down, but my point is tat it worked....why scrap it without trying to adjust, and leave so many in the dark.

The ACA was attacked by Republicans, even though it was once proposed by a conservative think tank.

Marco Rubio was instrumental in helping to undermind it. Just the facts, as I've seen them. No political agenda here, as I don't believe in political parties. Call me a George Washington patriot.

Marco Rubio Quietly Undermines Affordable Care Act - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/10/us/politics/marco-rubio-obamacare-affordable-care-act.html?_r=0)

[anothersteve]

I do not recall anyone on this forum ever supporting what you suggest.

Poster said we already have healthcare for illegal immigrants and I simply asked for more details because I was not aware that illegal immigrants could get healthcare

You misread my post...not supporting, simply wondering where someone felt it existed

Just one example;

• Illegal aliens can obtain welfare benefits such as Medicaid and food stamps on behalf of their U.S.-born children. Many of the welfare costs associated with illegal immigration, therefore, are due to the Executive Branch’s current (2015) interpretation of the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause. Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011)

Birthright Citizenship Fact Sheet | NumbersUSA (https://www.numbersusa.com/resource-article/birthright-citizenship-fact-sheet)

Now that one link, immigrant welfare use, keeps stating "immigrants" and leave out the "illegal"'

Steve

[retiredguy123]

Just one example;

• Illegal aliens can obtain welfare benefits such as Medicaid and food stamps on behalf of their U.S.-born children. Many of the welfare costs associated with illegal immigration, therefore, are due to the Executive Branch’s current (2015) interpretation of the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause. Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011)

Birthright Citizenship Fact Sheet | NumbersUSA (https://www.numbersusa.com/resource-article/birthright-citizenship-fact-sheet)

Now that one link, immigrant welfare use, keeps stating "immigrants" and leave out the "illegal"'

Steve
Medicaid money is used to fund free clinics and other public health services. I think illegals are technically not supposed to use these services, but I don't think they are screened out. Also, I believe Federal and State money is used to treat illegals in hospital emergency rooms.

[Aces4]

I m dumb on this. Can you provide more details on healthcare coverage for illegal immigrants in the US ?

I accuse you of nothing, but not that smart......I apparently misunderstood.

I was not aware of the healthcare coverage for illegals, and trust you will provide me with some reading material.

Thanks

It’s not difficult to find info regarding illegal health care coverage particularly if one is accustomed to performing online researches. Forbes has an excellent synopsis as to how American citizens in 2017 alone financed healthcare for illegals, $18.5 billion. One can only imagine what those costs are now.

Speak to professionals covering ER’s/trauma centers about healthcare for non-citizens. They can’t provide details but the eye rolls are all telling and they will tell you those patients are not paying. The current media wouldn’t miss a chance to tell you instantly if a runny nose or a booboo wasn’t treated. They appear to have better medical care available than most.

[Bucco]

Just one example;

• Illegal aliens can obtain welfare benefits such as Medicaid and food stamps on behalf of their U.S.-born children. Many of the welfare costs associated with illegal immigration, therefore, are due to the Executive Branch’s current (2015) interpretation of the 14th Amendment’s Citizenship Clause. Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children | Center for Immigration Studies (http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011)

Birthright Citizenship Fact Sheet | NumbersUSA (https://www.numbersusa.com/resource-article/birthright-citizenship-fact-sheet)

Now that one link, immigrant welfare use, keeps stating "immigrants" and leave out the "illegal"'

Steve

"on behalf of their U.S.-born children."

Most posters overlook this and take the generalized way.

Legally these children are US citizens !

[Bucco]

It’s not difficult to find info regarding illegal health care coverage particularly if one is accustomed to performing online researches. Forbes has an excellent synopsis as to how American citizens in 2017 alone financed healthcare for illegals, $18.5 billion. One can only imagine what those costs are now.

Speak to professionals covering ER’s/trauma centers about healthcare for non-citizens. They can’t provide details but the eye rolls are all telling and they will tell you those patients are not paying. The current media wouldn’t miss a chance to tell you instantly if a runny nose or a booboo wasn’t treated. They appear to have better medical care available than most.

BUT still no illegal immigrants are purchasing health insurance for themselves.

Chris Conover makes some good points, none of which is new and all should be discussed and validated....not that he lied buy he took some liberties with some stats for sure.

For those who are interested in reading...here is the link and it is from early 2018.

How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants (https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#1c3a745b12c4)

Now, lets be clear. I am not, nor never was advocating anything. There is so much junk information and actual lies being circulated because nobody talks to each other.

You posted this line to which I responded...."Canada has a form of universal coverage but they do not provide coverage for people who are in the country illegally. I'm sure that is the same in many if not all of the other countries who have "free" healthcare."


You "implication" and statement is not true at all as related to our country. This is what my objection is.....people simply say stuff with no regard to as if it were true.

[retiredguy123]

The problem is that nobody knows how many or who are not legally in the country. And, in most situations, you can't even ask for proof of legality. So, how can anyone claim to know how much or how little money is spent on illegals for health care or for anything else?

[Bucco]

The problem is that nobody knows how many or who are not legally in the country. And, in most situations, you can't even ask for proof of legality. So, how can anyone claim to know how much or how little money is spent on illegals for health care or for anything else?

I surely cannot speak to details, but from the little I do see, it appears that ICE is pretty aggressive in pursuing.

But directly to your point, what you say is true and has been for many years....it is not recent, and all the actions we are taking is making it worse than ever.

I keep beating what I suppose is a dead horse, but NOTHING.....not one single thing will be done as lot as we "proclaim" things and we are not trusted, and both seem to be getting worse. We listen to lobbyists more now than we did before draining the swamp. The divide is far wider than ever which means it will take longer to decrease and be more difficult.

From the GW Bush Presidential Center....

"AMERICA IS STRENGTHENED BY THE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY IMMIGRANTS. FOR THE U.S. ECONOMY TO FLOURISH TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL, OUTDATED IMMIGRATION POLICY MUST BE MODERNIZED."

A Nation Built by Immigrants | Bush Center (https://www.bushcenter.org/publications/resources-reports/reports/immigration.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAno_uBRC1ARIsAB496IX KScAU53HGy8IkR2llB4f0tuNXxT-UKDMbTlnaDb1gPhkjfDCRlaoaAps1EALw_wcB)

Does any of the current actions seem like we are modernizing anything or taking a gigantic step backward.

[Aces4]

I surely cannot speak to details, but from the little I do see, it appears that ICE is pretty aggressive in pursuing.

But directly to your point, what you say is true and has been for many years....it is not recent, and all the actions we are taking is making it worse than ever.

I keep beating what I suppose is a dead horse, but NOTHING.....not one single thing will be done as lot as we "proclaim" things and we are not trusted, and both seem to be getting worse. We listen to lobbyists more now than we did before draining the swamp. The divide is far wider than ever which means it will take longer to decrease and be more difficult.

From the GW Bush Presidential Center....

"AMERICA IS STRENGTHENED BY THE CONTRIBUTIONS MADE BY IMMIGRANTS. FOR THE U.S. ECONOMY TO FLOURISH TO ITS FULL POTENTIAL, OUTDATED IMMIGRATION POLICY MUST BE MODERNIZED."

A Nation Built by Immigrants | Bush Center (https://www.bushcenter.org/publications/resources-reports/reports/immigration.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAno_uBRC1ARIsAB496IX KScAU53HGy8IkR2llB4f0tuNXxT-UKDMbTlnaDb1gPhkjfDCRlaoaAps1EALw_wcB)

Does any of the current actions seem like we are modernizing anything or taking a gigantic step backward.

Exactly! God bless the immigrants who come to this country per the USA guidelines and laws. Who has a problem with them? We need and welcome them to become American citizens.

The elephant in the room is the mass illegal entry of citizens of foreign countries, Mexico primarily, sneaking into the USA and overwhelming the resources of this country. The laws concerned birthright citizenship are also way over due for change.

Is Washington DC at all aware of the frustration that the general population has from their refusal to address this issue? Fix immigration! Thus, more money to fix health care for the American people.

[TexaninVA]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

I'm pretty sure North Korea and Venezuela also offer free health care for all.

[Number 10 GI]

Those 32 countries that have so-called universal health care only represent 16% of all the countries in the world.

[manaboutown]

Exactly! God bless the immigrants who come to this country per the USA guidelines and laws. Who has a problem with them? We need and welcome them to become American citizens.

The elephant in the room is the mass illegal entry of citizens of foreign countries, Mexico primarily, sneaking into the USA and overwhelming the resources of this country. The laws concerned birthright citizenship are also way over due for change.

Is Washington DC at all aware of the frustration that the general population has from their refusal to address this issue? Fix immigration! Thus, more money to fix health care for the American people.

If they gain legal entry and come for the opportunities we have for them to obtain gainful employment, pay taxes and otherwise contribute I say WELCOME immigrants.

If they illegally enter to commit crimes, leach off our welfare or otherwise hurt us and our economy, deport them.

[mikemalloy]

I m dumb on this. Can you provide more details on healthcare coverage for illegal immigrants in the US ?

I accuse you of nothing, but not that smart......I apparently misunderstood.

I was not aware of the healthcare coverage for illegals, and trust you will provide me with some reading material.

Thanks
This is from an earlier post of mine. You'd be amazed at the things you can find to educate yourself when you use google.


The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.



All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid.



On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) thir

[Bucco]

This is from an earlier post of mine. You'd be amazed at the things you can find to educate yourself when you use google.


The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.



All told, the nearly $135 billion paid out by federal and state and local taxpayers to cover the cost of the presence of 12.5 million illegal aliens and their 4.2 million citizen children amounts to approximately $8,075 per illegal alien and citizen child prior to taxes paid, or $6,940 per person after taxes are paid.



On the federal level, medical ($17.14 billion) is by far the highest cost, with law enforcement coming second ($13.15 billion) and general government services ($8 billion) thir

Lets be clear and end this thing.

You insist I am stupid and cannot use google. May I suggest you do some research and you will discover....

There is NO health coverage for illegal immigrants as you insist upon alluding to....NONE.

The American citizen children of those folks can get healthcare.

There are surely associated costs in treating them in emergency wards, etc...same as American citizens with no health insurance.

You continue to perpetuate the false narrative, the parallel universe that says illegal immigrants are covered.

Its not true.....their children born here as American Citizens....yep but not them.

Trust me.....I can use google and this entire thread seems to have become one of those maddening conveyors of false and not true information..

You are looking for a fight instead of having a discussion on a very important issue, and you cannot fight while discussing....it is impossible.

Have a nice day

"In 2010, President Barack Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) into law. To match public opinion and boost popularity for the legislation, the ACA contains language that explicitly excludes undocumented immigrants from being able to purchase health insurance coverage.[11][1]"

Healthcare availability for undocumented immigrants in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_availability_for_undocumented_immigrant s_in_the_United_States#:~:targetText=Federal%20leg islation,to%20purchase%20health%20insurance%20cove rage).

"Most people in the following groups are eligible for coverage through the Health Insurance Marketplace:

U.S. citizens
U.S. nationals
Lawfully present immigrants

Health coverage for immigrants who are U.S. citizens or U.S. nationals | HealthCare.gov (https://www.healthcare.gov/immigrants/us-citizens-and-nationals/)

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ME THE "YEAH BUT" argument.....I misunderstood this as a discussion healthcare costs and how it might relate to government run insurance, but as always a group goes to the immigrants to make a point, irrelevant as to whether that was being discussed

[Aces4]

Lets be clear and end this thing.

You insist I am stupid and cannot use google. May I suggest you do some research and you will discover....

There is NO health coverage for illegal immigrants as you insist upon alluding to....NONE.

The American citizen children of those folks can get healthcare.

There are surely associated costs in treating them in emergency wards, etc...same as American citizens with no health insurance.

You continue to perpetuate the false narrative, the parallel universe that says illegal immigrants are covered.

Its not true.....their children born here as American Citizens....yep but not them.

Trust me.....I can use google and this entire thread seems to have become one of those maddening conveyors of false and not true information..

You are looking for a fight instead of having a discussion on a very important issue, and you cannot fight while discussing....it is impossible.

Have a nice day

"In 2010, President Barack Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) into law. To match public opinion and boost popularity for the legislation, the ACA contains language that explicitly excludes undocumented immigrants from being able to purchase health insurance coverage.[11][1]"

Healthcare availability for undocumented immigrants in the United States - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_availability_for_undocumented_immigrant s_in_the_United_States#:~:targetText=Federal%20leg islation,to%20purchase%20health%20insurance%20cove rage).

"Most people in the following groups are eligible for coverage through the Health Insurance Marketplace:

U.S. citizens
U.S. nationals
Lawfully present immigrants

Health coverage for immigrants who are U.S. citizens or U.S. nationals | HealthCare.gov (https://www.healthcare.gov/immigrants/us-citizens-and-nationals/)

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ME THE "YEAH BUT" argument.....I misunderstood this as a discussion healthcare costs and how it might relate to government run insurance, but as always a group goes to the immigrants to make a point, irrelevant as to whether that was being discussed

They don’t need insurance, their medical care is free.

[Bucco]

They don’t need insurance, their medical care is free.

do not think so.

I mentioned a number of times the cost of emergency services BUT NOT healthcare which is the subject of this thread.

They along with any American with no health coverage is assured by Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act .

I simply object to the false narrative that illegal immigrants can purchase health care....they can not. They also do not get free health care, as those American born who have been dropped from the roles recently do not also get free medical care. Obvious with the many now who cannot either as ACA is being dismantled, they also will get care at emergency rooms and of course that comes with caveats.

BUT IT IS A FALSE NARRATIVE TO......well we all know why such a false narrative is spread....serves a p point of view.

To believe that illegal immigrants can get health care and a born American cannot (maybe due to pre existing conditions) is a reflection of how easy it is to dupe american citizens to believe anything.

[Bucco]

They don’t need insurance, their medical care is free.

I was taken to task and sort o maligned saying I cant use google.....suggesting you use google or whatever and allow everyone that link that says ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS GET FREE HEALTHCARE

Thanks

And remember......They along with any American with no health coverage is assured by Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act .

I simply object to the false narrative that illegal immigrants can purchase health c

[manaboutown]

They don’t need insurance, their medical care is free.

Most illegals do not even have vehicle insurance much less health insurance. That is why I carry uninsured motorist coverage (which I must pay for essentially on behalf of the deadbeat uninsured motorists).

Illegals just show up at hospital emergency rooms for drug overdoses, minor illnesses or wounds and get treated for free. In places their numbers are so great they overwhelm the medical facilities and people needing help are not seen in time. We all are paying for them through increased costs which fall on our backs.

[Aces4]

Most illegals do not even have vehicle insurance much less health insurance. That is why I carry uninsured motorist coverage (which I must pay for essentially on behalf of the deadbeat uninsured motorists).

Illegals just show up at hospital emergency rooms for drug overdoses, minor illnesses or wounds and get treated for free. In places their numbers are so great they overwhelm the medical facilities and people needing help are not seen in time. We all are paying for them through increased costs which fall on our backs.

I believe ER records should be kept regarding illegal healthcare and stats released for the public so those who are convinced they don’t receive free medical services can see with their own eyes. Better yet, talk to an ER employee.

[jebartle]

I was taken to task and sort o maligned saying I cant use google.....suggesting you use google or whatever and allow everyone that link that says ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS GET FREE HEALTHCARE

Thanks

And remember......They along with any American with no health coverage is assured by Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act .

I simply object to the false narrative that illegal immigrants can purchase health c

I agree bucco, so frustrating when Google COULD be their friend!:bigbow:

[Northerner52]

I have a family member that is finishing her internship. It takes 7 years or so after college. She owes $500,000 in student loans.

[retiredguy123]

I have a family member that is finishing her internship. It takes 7 years or so after college. She owes $500,000 in student loans.
Another example of costs going up when the Federal Government takes over. If student loans were not so easy to get for just about any type of education, college tuition and other education costs would not be anywhere near as high as they are. Total student loan debt is now about 1.6 trillion dollars, and college costs keep increasing.

[billethkid]

Student debt is a good subject for a separate thread.

[PersonalChoice]

Alieta Eck, M.D. testifies to Senate about a better way to provide medical care to the poor.

Alieta Eck, M.D. testifies to Senate about a better way to provide medical care to the poor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R_yqQBTRxI)

[perrjojo]

As I recall I have read numerous article about the terrible state of Veteran's Health Care. I do believe this is a government run program. No thank you to Medicare for all.
VA history and failures (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/28/va-veterans-affairs-history-setbacks-missteps.html)

[mirage]

I AM CANADIEN AND OUR SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT(NEVER SAW ANYTHING) RUN BY GOVERNMENT THAT IS EFFECIENT. bUT WITH DUE RESPECT OUR HEALTHCARE FROMWHAT i UNDERSTAND IS SUPERIOR. yES THERE CAN BE LONG WAITS BUT IF YOUR KNEE, HIP, HEART OR ANYTHING ELSE IS SERIOUS YOU WILL BE DONE IMMEDIATELY. eVERYONE RECIEVES THE SAME HEALTH. COULD IT BE IMPROVED YES BUT I BELIEVE IT IS GEAT FOR THE CITIZENS.

[mirage]

i ALSO BY THE WAY TOOK DOWN A MONTHS SUPPLY OF OF A HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE PILL THAT COST MY FRIEND HERE IN THE VILLAGES $150.
mY COST TO HIM WAS 29 AMERICAN

[manaboutown]

I AM CANADIEN AND OUR SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT(NEVER SAW ANYTHING) RUN BY GOVERNMENT THAT IS EFFECIENT. bUT WITH DUE RESPECT OUR HEALTHCARE FROMWHAT i UNDERSTAND IS SUPERIOR. yES THERE CAN BE LONG WAITS BUT IF YOUR KNEE, HIP, HEART OR ANYTHING ELSE IS SERIOUS YOU WILL BE DONE IMMEDIATELY. eVERYONE RECIEVES THE SAME HEALTH. COULD IT BE IMPROVED YES BUT I BELIEVE IT IS GEAT FOR THE CITIZENS.

Why are you shouting?

[Nucky]

Why are you shouting?

Sometimes depending on how far out into Canada they are they have to YELL! It Far Far Away! :1rotfl:

[manaboutown]

Sometimes depending on how far out into Canada they are they have to YELL! It Far Far Away! :1rotfl:

:clap2::clap2::clap2::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[tophcfa]

I AM CANADIEN AND OUR SYSTEM IS NOT PERFECT(NEVER SAW ANYTHING) RUN BY GOVERNMENT THAT IS EFFECIENT. bUT WITH DUE RESPECT OUR HEALTHCARE FROMWHAT i UNDERSTAND IS SUPERIOR. yES THERE CAN BE LONG WAITS BUT IF YOUR KNEE, HIP, HEART OR ANYTHING ELSE IS SERIOUS YOU WILL BE DONE IMMEDIATELY. eVERYONE RECIEVES THE SAME HEALTH. COULD IT BE IMPROVED YES BUT I BELIEVE IT IS GEAT FOR THE CITIZENS.

About 22 years ago my mother and father were on a vacation in Canada and my dad had a heart attack. He got some great health care treatment with no questions asked, and he was not a Canadian resident. I don't know anything other than that first hand about how other health care systems work, but the experience my parents had in Canada during a time of crisis was overwhemingly positive.

[PugMom]

Australia, Germany, France, Canada, UK, Russia to name a few. Will it ever happen in US?

NO, & you don't want it, either. my hubby from a socialist country is the 1st to warn of very poor healthcare when it's controlled by the government

[PugMom]

About 22 years ago my mother and father were on a vacation in Canada and my dad had a heart attack. He got some great health care treatment with no questions asked, and he was not a Canadian resident. I don't know anything other than that first hand about how other health care systems work, but the experience my parents had in Canada during a time of crisis was overwhemingly positive.

my friend's daughter passed-away @ 19 waiting for treatment, she was canadian

[perrjojo]

About 22 years ago my mother and father were on a vacation in Canada and my dad had a heart attack. He got some great health care treatment with no questions asked, and he was not a Canadian resident. I don't know anything other than that first hand about how other health care systems work, but the experience my parents had in Canada during a time of crisis was overwhemingly positive.
Many years ago my husband became very ill in Brussels. At first he was in a very large “ward”with many patients. When they discovered he had US health insurance and was guaranteed payment he was moved to a private room. Yes he then recieved much better care.

[wendyquat]

I don’t understand why people cant just use your common sense! Do you REALLY want the US government controlling your healthcare. They have made a mess of everything they’ve ever been a part of!

[wendyquat]

Make more doctors ..You can't tell me that in a country the size of the United States we don't have millions of people that are qualified to be doctors today. Why is it we have to go to other countries to import doctors to come and work here at big salaries. If I go to India I'm quite sure if i go to a doctor he will not have america accent. Or came from the USA to practice in India. Stop with the baloney the AMA Controls the amount of doctors being produced in the United States and keeps it low so it is really no competition. So as all the experts claim that competition always lowers the price of everything let's make more hospitals produce more doctors. I'm really not quite sure that would work either as I look and see how many lawyers are produced in this country and still they charge a high price. Least the doctor has to go to school for many years to get his doctorates to bring and become an M.D. where real estate salespeople get 6% to do nothing.

I’m surprised you have not been chastised for your comment about real estate sales people getting 6% for doing NOTHING,

I was a real estate broker for over 30 years and it was some of the hardest work I’ve ever done! Until you’ve walked in their shoes, you wouldn’t understand!

[DAVES]

As to healthcare. We start out unwilling to face,to deal with the truth. Everyone gets sick and no one gets out alive.
I've read that 80% of healthcare money is spent on people who are terminally ill.
I've also read that in the US legal suits and avoiding or trying to avoid same adds 40% to the cost. Two recent examples Johnson and Johnson sued for baby powder. I'm sure not one person suing can prove they only used Johnson and Johnson for that matter far as I know the women involved were no using baby powder on a baby. The other current cases. Opioid abuse. Company found guilty. User responsibility?
When Bill Clinton was president I recall telling my dad the elephant in the room is how they will pay for it. Without that information is is simply an empty promise to get votes.
At the time I had a German friend and asked him how it works in Germany. As to how it works he told me that people who can afford it buy private insurance to get better care. We refuse to embrace that.
I also asked him about a limit on what Germany will spend.
At that time they had discovered drugs to keep aids patients alive and the cost was several hundred thousand per year.
He told me that there are wards of people in Germany who are by our definition brain dead. They are kept alive by machines at government expense.
In the US euthanasia is at best difficult to get permission for.
Fact is that we kill cancer patients with over doses of pain killers
and others are allowed to die by withholding water and food.

In the end there are no perfect easy answers.