Outsiders bringing their golf carts here

[charliets]

Just curious if anybody else experience this. This evening around 6pm their was a group of 5 carts going south on Morse from the Spanish Springs area, they were going 25-30 mph and blowing straight through the red lights, a few were passing each other in the grass and a few were just running in the traffic lanes. When they got to the tunnel going under 466 they were running side by side drag racing through it. They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town. The reason I think they are from outside of the bubble is because most of them had the 6 inch lift kits and big stereos on their carts and they all were in their mid twenties.
If the Villages don’t get a handle on this now, when they finish that residential section by Trailwinds on 466a this place will be overrun by outsiders and coming from a golf cart community in Georgia that every teenager has a golf cart it will not be pleasant.

[ColdNoMore]

////

[charliets]

What does //// mean?

[anothersteve]

Just curious if anybody else experience this. This evening around 6pm their was a group of 5 carts going south on Morse from the Spanish Springs area, they were going 25-30 mph and blowing straight through the red lights, a few were passing each other in the grass and a few were just running in the traffic lanes. When they got to the tunnel going under 466 they were running side by side drag racing through it. They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town. The reason I think they are from outside of the bubble is because most of them had the 6 inch lift kits and big stereos on their carts and they all were in their mid twenties.
If the Villages don’t get a handle on this now, when they finish that residential section by Trailwinds on 466a this place will be overrun by outsiders and coming from a golf cart community in Georgia that every teenager has a golf cart it will not be pleasant.

So you watched all of this going on from Spanish Springs to Sumter landing?
Steve

[ColdNoMore]

What does //// mean?

It means that since you can't delete a post in its entirety once it is posted, I decided my initial response might have been taken as too political...and deleted it the only way you can here. :D

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Just curious if anybody else experience this. This evening around 6pm their was a group of 5 carts going south on Morse from the Spanish Springs area, they were going 25-30 mph and blowing straight through the red lights, a few were passing each other in the grass and a few were just running in the traffic lanes. When they got to the tunnel going under 466 they were running side by side drag racing through it. They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town. The reason I think they are from outside of the bubble is because most of them had the 6 inch lift kits and big stereos on their carts and they all were in their mid twenties.
If the Villages don’t get a handle on this now, when they finish that residential section by Trailwinds on 466a this place will be overrun by outsiders and coming from a golf cart community in Georgia that every teenager has a golf cart it will not be pleasant.

So let me get this straight:

You were in a position to observe 5 golf carts near Spanish Springs, move to Morse, drive all the way to Buena Vista and cross to Sunset Pointe, stop long enough to drink a few beers, go all the way BACK to City Fire.

At 30 mph, that complete experience would have taken probably around 40 minutes (including the stop for the beers).

I'm guessing that the police didn't come to stop them because you chose not to call them, during this entire time.

Why were YOU going so fast by the way?

[charliets]

Never said that I watch all that from SS to LS. I came out of Rio Grande Ave. and as I was turning south onto Morse I almost got sideswiped by the little ****s. Then when I got to the tunnel one was turned around on the down ramp to the tunnel, I stopped to let them get ahead of me then caught up to them again at Sunset Point and again when I parked in front of the theater.
And to Coldnomore, I love to political post.

[anothersteve]

Never said that I watch all that from SS to LS. I came out of Rio Grande Ave. and as I was turning south onto Morse I almost got sideswiped by the little ****s. Then when I got to the tunnel one was turned around on the down ramp to the tunnel, I stopped to let them get ahead of me then caught up to them again at Sunset Point and again when I parked in front of the theater.
And to Coldnomore, I love to political post.

Doesn't pass the smell test.
Steve

[charliets]

Holy s..., never realized I needed to include everything detailed. Before going down Rio Grande I left Outback, before that I stopped at Ross’s but didn’t really think that added anything to me asking if anybody else had that experience, and yes the sheriffs department was called.

[JoMar]

Wonder what the OP thinks The Villages should do about this....sounds like a police issue and since The Villages doesn't have a police force not much they can do. If you called the Sheriff then the followup is with them.

[Nucky]

Ah charliets, I feel your pain. I remember my first time being put on cross-examination. Ain't it just grand? I think you may need Legal Representation! Lemme see somebody comes to mind. Hmmm, Try Morgan & Morgan. :1rotfl::1rotfl: Don't worry about those that were just teasing you, it's all in the spirit of fun and the Holidays. It's their way of saying welcome to the Squad! :1rotfl::1rotfl:

I got your point. Just an innocent post. :boxing2: :faint:

[Marathon Man]

Just curious if anybody else experience this. This evening around 6pm their was a group of 5 carts going south on Morse from the Spanish Springs area, they were going 25-30 mph and blowing straight through the red lights, a few were passing each other in the grass and a few were just running in the traffic lanes. When they got to the tunnel going under 466 they were running side by side drag racing through it. They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town. The reason I think they are from outside of the bubble is because most of them had the 6 inch lift kits and big stereos on their carts and they all were in their mid twenties.
If the Villages don’t get a handle on this now, when they finish that residential section by Trailwinds on 466a this place will be overrun by outsiders and coming from a golf cart community in Georgia that every teenager has a golf cart it will not be pleasant.

So, you saw them stop, drink a few beers, and then leave - as you were driving by?

[coffeebean]

What does //// mean?

That is indication the post was deleted by the poster.

[tsmall22204]

Did you call the police? If they were there long enough to drink "a few beers" plenty of time to end that behavior.

[anothersteve]

Did you call the police? If they were there long enough to drink "a few beers" plenty of time to end that behavior.

Especially with the Sheriff's office being right across the lake less than half a mile away.
Steve

[Kathy_B]

Just curious if anybody else experience this. This evening around 6pm their was a group of 5 carts going south on Morse from the Spanish Springs area, they were going 25-30 mph and blowing straight through the red lights, a few were passing each other in the grass and a few were just running in the traffic lanes. When they got to the tunnel going under 466 they were running side by side drag racing through it. They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town. The reason I think they are from outside of the bubble is because most of them had the 6 inch lift kits and big stereos on their carts and they all were in their mid twenties.
If the Villages don’t get a handle on this now, when they finish that residential section by Trailwinds on 466a this place will be overrun by outsiders and coming from a golf cart community in Georgia that every teenager has a golf cart it will not be pleasant.
:1rotfl:BIG STEREOS went out 25 years ago. Are you sure they were from this planet?

[bmit16]

So that kind of behavior is not acceptable if you are under 55? These were potential Villages of 2055 doing a life style stay. This is what we can expect in 30 years.

[Gcskh@hotmail.com]

It sounds like you are taking exaggeration to the extreme to try to make a valid point. You write a blown out of proportion letter and then top it off out of the blue with commentary about Georgia??!!

[dewilson58]

Pinocchio

[Fuzz323]

So the detractors of the initial post here don't believe that this happens and will happen more in the future? That's what I get out of the this. The Op gets cut up by the professional bunch on TOTV with sarcasm and a some really clever? remarks. Open your eyes people. If you believe this place is not a "target of opportunity" for the type of behavior described you have your head in the sand. Stand By for Incoming!!

[Topspinmo]

Doesn't pass the smell test.
Steve

So, how many villagers has jacked up golf carts with big knobby tires and are in there 20’s? I didn’t mention cart going 30 plus cause we have plenty of them ( mostly golfers). Other than calling the sheriff report careless or drunk driving IMO not much can do.

[Chatbrat]

Stuff happens in TV, people here are so worried about their real estate values, they hate any negativity--look out for the pre-teens driving golf carts during the holiday season, oh, it never happens

Merry Christmas from the Admiral & the Captain

[golfing eagles]

So, how many villagers has jacked up golf carts with big knobby tires and are in there 20’s? I didn’t mention cart going 30 plus cause we have plenty of them ( mostly golfers). Other than calling the sheriff report careless or drunk driving IMO not much can do.

Sounds more like a dune buggy:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Topspinmo]

So that kind of behavior is not acceptable if you are under 55? These were potential Villages of 2055 doing a life style stay. This is what we can expect in 30 years.

Or village moocher’s living with mommy and daddy:popcorn:

[Topspinmo]

Sounds more like a dune buggy:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I see the golfer comment had reaction:duck:

[Topspinmo]

It sounds like you are taking exaggeration to the extreme to try to make a valid point. You write a blown out of proportion letter and then top it off out of the blue with commentary about Georgia??!!

Did you witness it? I didn’t think so:popcorn:

[Bogie Shooter]

Holy s..., never realized I needed to include everything detailed. Before going down Rio Grande I left Outback, before that I stopped at Ross’s but didn’t really think that added anything to me asking if anybody else had that experience, and yes the sheriffs department was called.
And what did the sheriff do/say??

[stan the man]

It's Christmas break for all the college kids. The future of America

[Sglickler]

Never said that I watch all that from SS to LS. I came out of Rio Grande Ave. and as I was turning south onto Morse I almost got sideswiped by the little ****s. Then when I got to the tunnel one was turned around on the down ramp to the tunnel, I stopped to let them get ahead of me then caught up to them again at Sunset Point and again when I parked in front of the theater.
And to Coldnomore, I love to political post.

What theater is at Sunset Point?

[Arctic Fox]

Don't worry about those that were just teasing you, it's all in the spirit of fun and the Holidays. It's their way of saying welcome to the Squad!

I have no problem believing the whole post as being 100% factual and witnessed.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've just bought a bridge in Brooklyn on eBay and I'm keen to go and inspect my new purchase.

[J1ceasar]

Did you bother to call the Police ?

[CWGUY]

What theater is at Sunset Point?

OP has mistakenly called the area on the bridge (where people watch the sunset) Sunset Point. Sunset Point is the name of a Village. That is where all the confusion is coming from. :ho:

[Marathon Man]

OP has mistakenly called the area on the bridge (where people watch the sunset) Sunset Point. Sunset Point is the name of a Village. That is where all the confusion is coming from. :ho:

I caught that, too. But ...

Isn't that area all paved? He talked about driving in the grass.

[anothersteve]

OP has mistakenly called the area on the bridge (where people watch the sunset) Sunset Point. Sunset Point is the name of a Village. That is where all the confusion is coming from. :ho:

Umm..............

They all pulled into Sunset Point skidding through the wet grass with their big knobby tires. After drinking a few beers they tossed their empties in the bushes and raced over the bridge to City Fire like they owned the town.

But ...
Isn't that area all paved? He talked about driving in the grass.

No, there is a grassy area you can pull into before the bridge. Someone should go and see if it's really torn up.
Steve

[Waltdisney4life]

Thanks, that’s the best laugh I’ve had today! Look the sky is falling 😂

[Moderator]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator

[ColdNoMore]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator

:mademyday:

[NoMoSno]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator
Of course it is.
I see carts crossing 42 into Mulberry frequently.
A street legal can access very easily.
Wonder how the OP knows the carts were non-resident carts?

[dewilson58]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator




The answer is no.

[EdFNJ]

Of course it is.
I see carts crossing 42 into Mulberry frequently.
A street legal can access very easily.
Wonder how the OP knows the carts were non-resident carts? They had big tires and loud radios and those driving them didn't have beer bellies and weren't wearing black knee socks with shorts and white leather shoes. :) :D :)

[dewilson58]

Thanks, that’s the best laugh I’ve had today! Look the sky is falling 😂




:bigbow:

[ColdNoMore]

They had big tires and loud radios and those driving them didn't have beer bellies and weren't wearing black knee socks with shorts and white leather shoes. :) :D :)

:1rotfl:


:boom:

[anothersteve]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator

Of course anything's possible, but in the OP's case, I doubt it.
Steve

[New Englander]

Rather than torching the OP, perhaps focus on the general topic/issue he/she brought up. Is The Villages vulnerable to non-residents accessing the multi-modal trails with 'non conventional' golf carts and causing damage?

Moderator

:agree:

[Elklake2]

It sounds like you are taking exaggeration to the extreme to try to make a valid point. You write a blown out of proportion letter and then top it off out of the blue with commentary about Georgia??!!
If the person that witnessed this is correct, they would have had to be where they saw them drag race through the tunnel AND had spent time with them at sunset pt as said witness mentioned they had a couple beers, which were tossed into the bushes. How did the witness keep up with them and want to follow them all the way to city fire??? Just sayin'

[asianthree]

Sounds like ATVs, but they look nothing like a golf cart, but do have tires to off road. Up north they are pretty common, to use on large acres of property. We have a couple at the lake cottage. Speed can average up to 50mph.

[Nucky]

We have a Camouflaged 850CC QUAD. Sounds just like what you described. ������ Earlier on I was just trying to be Nice in the Spirit of the Season.

We do take it out late at night. Like 9.30 but act very nicely

[Win1894]

I suspect these marauders were in actuality terrorists conducting a dry run. Hopefully, everyone here in TV has an escape plan or a fortified safe space!

[Topspinmo]

What theater is at Sunset Point?

I guess you over looked the word “and”

[Topspinmo]

I suspect these marauders were in actuality terrorists conducting a dry run. Hopefully, everyone here in TV has an escape plan or a fortified safe space!

I prefer colt peacekeeper.

[Topspinmo]

Sounds like ATVs, but they look nothing like a golf cart, but do have tires to off road. Up north they are pretty common, to use on large acres of property. We have a couple at the lake cottage. Speed can average up to 50mph.
And here only service vehicles are allowed on MMP.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I saw a Smart Car on the MMP that runs along the side of El Camino Road yesterday. It was pretty weird and I wondered how they could even get on that path at all, considering that there's a pole to block access to anything bigger than a golf cart at the turn heading toward Morse.

[EdFNJ]

I saw a Smart Car on the MMP that runs along the side of El Camino Road yesterday. It was pretty weird and I wondered how they could even get on that path at all, considering that there's a pole to block access to anything bigger than a golf cart at the turn heading toward Morse.
Are you sure it was a Smart? There is a new Atomic GC that looks very much like a Smart at quick glance and is pretty close in size (Smart is a bit wider):

2 Door Version:
https://i.ibb.co/mJf1DvB/2019-12-24-23-21-10.jpg

And 4 door version:
https://i.ibb.co/PTXrPvc/2019-12-24-23-48-45.jpg

[asianthree]

I saw a Smart Car on the MMP that runs along the side of El Camino Road yesterday. It was pretty weird and I wondered how they could even get on that path at all, considering that there's a pole to block access to anything bigger than a golf cart at the turn heading toward Morse.

Smart car is shorter than our golf cart, close to the same width, and fits in our golf cart garage. But If it’s a smart car it’s plated should not be on mmp

[asianthree]

And here only service vehicles are allowed on MMP.


As I stated our quads are still up north, so not a problem for the MMP here

[golfing eagles]

I saw a Smart Car on the MMP that runs along the side of El Camino Road yesterday. It was pretty weird and I wondered how they could even get on that path at all, considering that there's a pole to block access to anything bigger than a golf cart at the turn heading toward Morse.

Smart car, stupid driver?:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Bay Kid]

Are Smart Cars cheaper than a decked out cart? Can we get a golf carrier on the rear w/sand bottle? We might need a dealership in TVs.

[DOGSAREKEEPERS]

The problem here is not what you did after Outback. The problem is that SUNSET POINT is SOUTH of Lake Sumter Landing which is where City Fire and the Theater are located.
If you were coming from Morse you would be at your theater and they would be at City Fire without hitting Sunset Point.

HOLD THE PHONE...I just got it...
:a040:You mean the pull off place on Morse where people watch the sunset, not Sunset Point which is a Village South of Sumter Landing.

Now to your point...Yes there are some people who enter the Villages in golf carts that don't belong here. At the same time many of our resident's visitors drive and act just like you described.:boxing2:

[ColdNoMore]

The problem here is not what you did after Outback. The problem is that SUNSET POINT is SOUTH of Lake Sumter Landing which is where City Fire and the Theater are located.
If you were coming from Morse you would be at your theater and they would be at City Fire without hitting Sunset Point.

HOLD THE PHONE...I just got it...
:a040:You mean the pull off place on Morse where people watch the sunset, not Sunset Point which is a Village South of Sumter Landing.

Now to your point...Yes there are some people who enter the Villages in golf carts that don't belong here. At the same time many of our resident's visitors drive and act just like you described.:boxing2:

Semantics. :oops:


From the time we first rented here over 10 years ago, almost everyone I know (you being an exception, obviously)...have always referred to this pull-off as..."Sunset Point." :ho:


Now back to the regularly scheduled...OP bashing. :ohdear:

[redwitch]

Quite simply, Community Watch AND the Sheriff should have been called when first witnessed on Morse. They were a danger to themselves and others, were driving illegally on a public street rather than just a multi-modal path (where the Sheriff has no jurisdiction). It does sound more like ATVs than golf carts, though, which are not allowed in TV.

I’ve never seen this type of behavior but have seen some incredibly stupid behavior by visitors (normally college grands visiting), such as five on a 2-seater golf cart. And, yes, I did call the Sheriff and, yes, the Sheriff did stop them.

And, yes, neighboring communities do get here by golf cart. Most treat our pathways more respectfully than we and our guests do. The Villages owns the multi-modal paths. The Counties own the golf cart paths that run adjacent to roads, such as on Morse. TV has no say as to what is driven there.

I’m not going to question the veracity of the OP. Things may have been exaggerated to show what can happen. It could have been imagination at what could happen. It could be what was seen in Georgia. It could have actually happened. It’s absolutely irrelevant to the main issue — non-villagers having access to the paths.

[Curtisbwp]

Been here since 2003 and I have NEVER seen such a thing. Not to worry, the police will deal with especially if it is as prevalent as you stated.

[joneil]

The original post is total b.s.
You describe it like you were sitting in their back seat!
C’mon, stand up and admit it. You probably did see them do one thing wrong and then your very imaginative mind took over your keyboard and spewed out the script of “Smokey and the Bandit”!
Stop the madness my friend, just stop.

[kcrazorbackfan]

Ah charliets, I feel your pain. I remember my first time being put on cross-examination. Ain't it just grand? I think you may need Legal Representation! Lemme see somebody comes to mind. Hmmm, Try Morgan & Morgan. :1rotfl::1rotfl: Don't worry about those that were just teasing you, it's all in the spirit of fun and the Holidays. It's their way of saying welcome to the Squad! :1rotfl::1rotfl:

I got your point. Just an innocent post. :boxing2: :faint:

Yeah, everyone wants to be a LEO; but, trust me, 99.9% of the people on here does. not. have. what. it. takes.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year...…….

[EdFNJ]

Smart car is shorter than our golf cart, close to the same width, and fits in our golf cart garage. But If it’s a smart car it’s plated should not be on mmp Actually if what she saw was actually a street legal Smart look-alike like the Atomic which would be plated or any LSV Golf Cart for that matter it can be on the MMP's so it still might be confusing. And for those who dispute that (like the guy who stopped me the other day screaming at me) it is stated on the District Gov website with a letter from District Gov counsel regarding Street Legal/LSV golf carts being permitted on the MMPs.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Actually if what she saw was actually a street legal Smart look-alike like the Atomic which would be plated or any LSV Golf Cart for that matter it can be on the MMP's so it still might be confusing. And for those who dispute that (like the guy who stopped me the other day screaming at me) it is stated on the District Gov website with a letter from District Gov counsel regarding Street Legal/LSV golf carts being permitted on the MMPs.

It was definitely a smart car and not an Atomic. They do look similar from a distance, that's true.

[EdFNJ]

It was definitely a smart car and not an Atomic. They do look similar from a distance, that's true. LOL, I believe it. Wife and I saw a full size Chevy coming down the path leaving the Winn Dixie lot the other morning as we were coming out of the tunnel..

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I also watched a pair of golf carts crossing 441 at Wales onto Avenida Central, yesterday. I was stopped at the red light heading north on 441 on my way home (I turn in at the Boone Gate unless I have to stop to check the mail).

Prettttty sure those weren't "outsiders."

[asianthree]

Actually if what she saw was actually a street legal Smart look-alike like the Atomic which would be plated or any LSV Golf Cart for that matter it can be on the MMP's so it still might be confusing. And for those who dispute that (like the guy who stopped me the other day screaming at me) it is stated on the District Gov website with a letter from District Gov counsel regarding Street Legal/LSV golf carts being permitted on the MMPs.

We had a smart car, I don’t think they look at all like an atomic. But it may be confusing for the older folks here.

[asianthree]

Yeah, everyone wants to be a LEO; but, trust me, 99.9% of the people on here does. not. have. what. it. takes.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year...…….

Nope would rather fix people.

[Nucky]

Yeah, everyone wants to be a LEO; but, trust me, 99.9% of the people on here does. not. have. what. it. takes.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year...…….

You got that rite! Most of them would come up to the level of MeTV Presents the Best of Barney Fife - YouTube (https://youtu.be/b1nuaOg_8NU). I have NOTHING but respect :super: for those who protect us especially in the south. They scare the hell outta me. :pray:

First thing I would have done if I saw what was described is take out the phone and take a picture or ten.

[perrjojo]

It sounds like you are taking exaggeration to the extreme to try to make a valid point. You write a blown out of proportion letter and then top it off out of the blue with commentary about Georgia??!!
If you had ever been to Peachtree City, GA you would get the OPs point.

[pauld315]

Happens everyday. They park their trucks with trailered carts at a shopping center in TV and drive through TV

[Topspinmo]

Actually if what she saw was actually a street legal Smart look-alike like the Atomic which would be plated or any LSV Golf Cart for that matter it can be on the MMP's so it still might be confusing. And for those who dispute that (like the guy who stopped me the other day screaming at me) it is stated on the District Gov website with a letter from District Gov counsel regarding Street Legal/LSV golf carts being permitted on the MMPs.

And I can’t ride my mini-bike on the MMP

[Topspinmo]

The original post is total b.s.
You describe it like you were sitting in their back seat!
C’mon, stand up and admit it. You probably did see them do one thing wrong and then your very imaginative mind took over your keyboard and spewed out the script of “Smokey and the Bandit”!
Stop the madness my friend, just stop.

Just you’re opinion, well all have them like ____.

[Topspinmo]

I also watched a pair of golf carts crossing 441 at Wales onto Avenida Central, yesterday. I was stopped at the red light heading north on 441 on my way home (I turn in at the Boone Gate unless I have to stop to check the mail).

Prettttty sure those weren't "outsiders."

How do you know they were heading for the path to Walmart and beyond?

[Topspinmo]

They had big tires and loud radios and those driving them didn't have beer bellies and weren't wearing black knee socks with shorts and white leather shoes. :) :D :)

And their knees hanging out of the carts further than the mirrors.:)

[skip0358]

Who cares. If they were doing something wrong you should have called 911 instead of posting on TOTV and starting another long winded nothing post

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

How do you know they were heading for the path to Walmart and beyond?

They left Paradise Avenue the Wales gate, ONTO 441, and crossed the road to Avenida Central. The reason I know this is because I was stopped at that red light coming up 441, in my car.