Traffic issues and questions

[NotGolfer]

I needed to go to Creekside complex yesterday morning so had just made the turn from Stillwater going towards the 4-way stop by TooJay's. "JUST" before where the golf-carts cross a gentleman in his cart was buzzing right along, didn't pause--much less stop and appeared not to even look and nearly became a hood ornament on my car. Good thing I wasn't going fast!! He seemed angry that I would have tooted my horn to warn him. Anyway---I've observed carts thinking they have the right of way at these crossings and they truly don't. Tis the season where we all need to be wary when out and about!!

I do have a question though---if folks are walking on those and want to cross, should auto traffic stop and let them go as they would in a cross-walk?? I would think since it's not a marked crossing they'd have to defer to traffic BUT I could be wrong on this one.

[Polar Bear]

Pedestrians do not have the right-of-way at that crossing. The autos do. And I'm a great believer in taking and acting on your right-of-way. Trying to be nice when not necessary is inefficient and even a hazard at most locations. But there are exceptions and that specific location can often be one. There are often cars backed up from the 4-way stop to the roundabout, at least in the winter. I think then...with great caution...it is acceptable to allow pedestrians, bicyclists, and carts to cross until the traffic starts moving again.

[NotGolfer]

Pedestrians do not have the right-of-way at that crossing. The autos do. And I'm a great believer in taking and acting on your right-of-way. Trying to be nice when not necessary is inefficient and even a hazard at most locations. But there are exceptions and that specific location can often be one. There are often cars backed up from the 4-way stop to the roundabout, at least in the winter. I think then...with great caution...it is acceptable to allow pedestrians, bicyclists, and carts to cross until the traffic starts moving again.

Thank you! THAT was my thought too! At that same crossing after my app't there was a couple, walking, and the woman was trying to flag cars to stop and seemed upset when they didn't. I kept driving. The other day I experienced exactly what you said about vehicular traffic being backed up on to Stillwater as well as the round-about and cars coming out of that neighborhood as well. It was truly hairy trying to navigate safely....with impatient drivers along with the back-up. I'm not sure what would be the best way to get to Creekside unless it's to go to the other entrance to LSL off Morse---but then there's the traffic issues with the square etc. too.

[Bogie Shooter]

That is a multi-model path which includes walkers. Why would you not have to stop and let them cross at a crosswalk?

[EdFNJ]

Pedestrians in a crosswalk have the right of way in Florida. Flordia Crosswalk Laws | Pedestrian Rules of the Road | Meldon LawMeldon Law (https://www.meldonlaw.com/library/pedestrian-rules-of-the-road-for-safety-in-florida/) If they let you kill them in a crosswalk it's your fault.

Also from The State of FL: >> Florida Statutes 316.130 – Pedestrians; traffic regulationsLawServer (https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_316-130)

[roob1]

To stop in the road (with no stop sign) because a cart or walker is waiting to cross (not already in crosswalk), is hazardous/illegal.
Of course, if the walker/cart is already in the crosswalk, that is a different story.

That is a multi-model path which includes walkers. Why would you not have to stop and let them cross at a crosswalk?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

A pedestrian crossing at a marked crosswalk has the right of way. A pedestrian crossing anywhere else is supposed to yield to non-pedestrian traffic. This is true in the reverse: vehicles trying to get from point A to point B on a legally authorized public road have the right of way, except at marked pedestrian crosswalks, when they must yield to pedestrian traffic.

That said - if you're dumb enough to not abide by what you were taught when you were a kid "stop and look both ways before crossing the street" then my response when I hear you got hit by a car will be "thoughts and prayers."

[Polar Bear]

That is a multi-model path which includes walkers. Why would you not have to stop and let them cross at a crosswalk?
At the location in question, there is no marked crosswalk and cars have no stop sign. The MMP does have stop signs. Cars have absolute right-of-way.

[Polar Bear]

A pedestrian crossing at a marked crosswalk has the right of way...
An extremely dangerous...and basically wrong...oversimplification.

Signalized intersections have marked crosswalks. So a car approaching the intersection with a green light is going to stop for pedestrians? Please provide a link to that law.

[Two Bills]

At the location in question, there is no marked crosswalk and cars have no stop sign. The MMP does have stop signs. Cars have absolute right-of-way.

Use that crossing quite regularly in golf cart, and some of the shenanigans pulled by cart drivers, bicyclists and pedestians at it, beggers belief sometimes.
Stop signs on both side of MMP.
I trust nothing, and no one at that crossing.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

An extremely dangerous...and basically wrong...oversimplification.

Signalized intersections have marked crosswalks. So a car approaching the intersection with a green light is going to stop for pedestrians? Please provide a link to that law.

An extremely dangerous - and basically wrong - oversimplification of what I said. You missed a very important word: "crossing."

Crossing is present tense. Not pluperfect, not past, not future. Present. It means - someone is actively doing this thing.

If a person is actively in the process of crossing the street at a marked crosswalk, then yes - that person has the right of way. EVEN if someone is approaching that crosswalk on the street in a motor vehicle and they have a green light. They MUST stop and allow the person who is walking to complete their journey to the other side of the street. EVEN if that pedestrian isn't immediately in their path, merely on their way toward it.

Once the pedestrian steps off the curb and into the street at a marked crossroad, he automatically has the right of way on that road.

If he hasn't left the curb yet then no - he doesn't have the right of way if oncoming traffic has a green light. But that wasn't what I was talking about - which is why I used the present tense of "to cross."

[Polar Bear]

An extremely dangerous - and basically wrong - oversimplification of what I said. You missed a very important word: "crossing."

Crossing is present tense. Not pluperfect, not past, not future. Present. It means - someone is actively doing this thing.

If a person is actively in the process of crossing the street at a marked crosswalk, then yes - that person has the right of way...
So drivers are not supposed to run into people who are in the road in front of them??!!?? Thanks so much for pointing that out to all us drivers that would not have known any better. You hear that folks?? DO NOT RUN YOUR CARS INTO PEOPLE!!

:ohdear:

[Bogie Shooter]

Enough already, can we get back to dog pee?:duck:

[EdFNJ]

\\\

[EdFNJ]

So drivers are not supposed to run into people who are in the road in front of them??!!?? Thanks so much for pointing that out to all us drivers that would not have known any better. You hear that folks?? DO NO RUN YOUR CARS INTO PEOPLE!!

:ohdear: The obvious point I believe she was trying to make was if a pedestrian STEPS INTO a marked crosswalk vehicles are supposed to, by law, stop and let them cross even if there was plenty of time to safely drive past them before they knock them down like a bowling pin. Put a foot in crosswalk vehicles must stop. While that rarely happens it is the law and also probably why DAN makes so much money.




from The State of FL: >> Florida Statutes 316.130 – Pedestrians; traffic regulationsLawServer (https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_316-130)

[Polar Bear]

The obvious point I believe she was trying to make was if a pedestrian STEPS INTO a marked crosswalk vehicles are supposed to, by law, stop and let them cross even if there was plenty of time to safely drive past them before they knock them down like a bowling pin. Put a foot in crosswalk vehicles must stop. While that rarely happens it is the law and also probably why DAN makes so much money.

from The State of FL: >> Florida Statutes 316.130 – Pedestrians; traffic regulationsLawServer (https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/florida/statutes/florida_statutes_316-130)
The cited code “allows a pedestrian, WITH A PERMITTED SIGNAL, to cross a roadway“ at a signalized intersection.

Does that mean the driver of a car can just hit a pedestrian who is illegally crossing? No. Duh. But does that mean a person who steps into the crosswalk without a “permitted signal” has the right-of-way? Absolutely not. It is NOT the law.

Now, regarding that dog pee...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The cited code “allows a pedestrian, WITH A PERMITTED SIGNAL, to cross a roadway“ at a signalized intersection.

Does that mean the driver of a car can just hit a pedestrian who is illegally crossing? No. Duh. But does that mean a person who steps into the crosswalk without a “permitted signal” has the right-of-way? Absolutely not. It is NOT the law.

Now, regarding that dog pee...

yes, it's law. here's the actual law:

(c) When traffic control signals are not in place or in operation and there is no signage indicating otherwise, the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way, slowing down or stopping if need be to so yield, to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within a crosswalk when the pedestrian is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger. Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
(8) No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to yield.

From the website where the actual law is published, by the actual state government:

Chapter 316 Section 130 - 2012 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate (https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/316.130)

Seriously - it wasn't that hard to find it. And whaddya know - I was wrong about the part where I said traffic had to yield even if the pedestrian was on the other side of the road. Traffic has the right of way, in that case.

[Polar Bear]

[QUOTE=OrangeBlossomBaby;1722317Chapter 316 Section 130 - 2012 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate (https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/316.130) [/QUOTE]
Read your own quote in the previous post: “When traffic control signals are not in place or in operation”.

I repeated more than once that I was talking about a signalized intersection when a vehicle has a green light. Still no right-of-way for the pedestrian. Thanks for quoting the law that proves my point.

By the way, previous post I referred you too should be pretty easy to find.

[pauld315]

I needed to go to Creekside complex yesterday morning so had just made the turn from Stillwater going towards the 4-way stop by TooJay's. "JUST" before where the golf-carts cross a gentleman in his cart was buzzing right along, didn't pause--much less stop and appeared not to even look and nearly became a hood ornament on my car. Good thing I wasn't going fast!! He seemed angry that I would have tooted my horn to warn him. Anyway---I've observed carts thinking they have the right of way at these crossings and they truly don't. Tis the season where we all need to be wary when out and about!!

I do have a question though---if folks are walking on those and want to cross, should auto traffic stop and let them go as they would in a cross-walk?? I would think since it's not a marked crossing they'd have to defer to traffic BUT I could be wrong on this one.

Pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way

[Polar Bear]

Pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way
I give up. Now I really am off to the dog pee thread.

[JoMar]

And the true arbitrator of the law and who is correct in this thread will be Dan Newlan :)

[ColdNoMore]

It's actually very simple.

If a dog jumps out of a moving car that's driving down the MMP, then wanders out to the solid white line in a roundabout to pee, the non-street legal golf cart barreling in the opposite direction of the roundabout at 32 mph, must swerve around the dog before coming to a complete stop and the duck on the curb waddling past the village gate that is down...has the right-of-way.

See how simple that is? :ho:


:D

[Velvet]

K, not sure I can read any more, I’m dying of laughing already.

[ts12755]

In Florida pedestrians in a crosswalk have the right of way. I believe it's a $100 fine to a driver. If they're on the multimodal trail walking across give him the benefit of the doubt and let him cross.

[NotGolfer]

I realize pedestrians have the right of way "IF" they're in a controlled crosswalk OR if they've already stepped off the curb and are walking. In the case I was talking about it's not truly a "controlled" crosswalk as some are. The cross-traffic is supposed to stop (NOT the vehicles) to let them pass. The pedestrians I saw that day had stopped BUT were trying to flag the vehicles to stop so they could pass. THAT to me is like trying to be traffic controllers. That particular road is already hazardous due to the volumn of cars coming in off Stillwater and the round-about. Guess you'd have to come and try it for yourselves!! It can be crazy there and I have to wonder how many accidents happen at that area. I see cars stopping continually and motioning carts to go on---THAT is againest the law and you can also ask any sheriff in our area. It's the same as at the gate crossings!!

[coffeebean]

So drivers are not supposed to run into people who are in the road in front of them??!!?? Thanks so much for pointing that out to all us drivers that would not have known any better. You hear that folks?? DO NOT RUN YOUR CARS INTO PEOPLE!!

:ohdear:

Very true. Pedestrians who walk in a crosswalk against a red light are in the wrong. They are illegally crossing the street, although in a crosswalk, but they are still wrong. The vehicle has the right of way with the green light.

[coffeebean]

Pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way

Read the actual law which was quoted in the post above. Any pedestrian entering a crosswalk against a red light has a death wish and they will be dead wrong if they are killed by a vehicle who has the green light.

[coffeebean]

it's actually very simple.

If a dog jumps out of a moving car that's driving down the mmp, then wanders out to the solid white line in a roundabout to pee, the non-street legal golf cart barreling in the opposite direction of the roundabout at 32 mph, must swerve around the dog before coming to a complete stop and the duck on the curb waddling past the village gate that is down...has the right-of-way.

See how simple that is? :ho:


:d

I just spewed coffee all over my computer screen. Thanks for the laugh!!!

[bmit16]

Pedestrians always have the right of way. Period! I don't know why anyone would state otherwise. This is basic drivers education lesson 1. In every state, that's the law. Now for that intersection. Set at the outside bar at Sonny's, grab a drink and enjoy the show. Horn blowing and near misses are the norm. You can even hear drivers yelling at each other. It is the best entertainment in The Villages!

[coffeebean]

This excerpt is from Dan Newlin's website FAQ..........

"If a motor vehicle has a green light, pedestrians and bicyclists should yield the right of way to that vehicle. If a pedestrian or bicyclist is crossing a road at a location other than an intersection, and there is no traffic device directing or restricting traffic, the pedestrian or bicyclist should exercise reasonable control and judgment, and not presume an oncoming motor vehicle will yield to them."

[sajoe]

What "legally" defines a "marked crosswalk"? Specifically around the square in Brownwood?

[ladybugsmom]

Yes, I’ve noticed too that many golf cart drivers think they have the right-of-way. Twice now since the beginning of the year, have avoided really, really close accident encounters with cart drivers. They are completely oblivious.

[anothersteve]

Pedestrians always have the right of way. Period! I don't know why anyone would state otherwise. This is basic drivers education lesson 1. In every state, that's the law.

Talk like that will get somebody killed!
Steve

[DeafDeaf]

No matter whether there is a trivial one or not, let it go and think PEACE!

:clap2:

[noslices1]

Just run down someone in the crosswalk and see who has the “right of way” when the police get there.

[DReifinger]

Right, once within a crosswalk a vehicle does have to yield to pedestrians. I get so upset when people just proceed into the crosswalk with oncoming traffic, that's just not right.

[Velvet]

For a pedestrian to walk out on to a road (whatever kind of markings) and hope that a moving 3000 pound vehicle might stop and not hit them, is a great leap of faith. Why would one risk that kind of injury? Even if the driver is at fault, it will be the pedestrian that suffers for the rest of their lives.

Having had “the right of way” will not make up for the metal inside one’s body pinning body parts together. And insurance money doesn’t take away the chronic pain either.

[Tall4mom]

Impatient drivers, speeding, no turn signals used, carts passing and speeding down the middle of the road,not stopping at stop signs seem to be the norm. Would be good if we all slowed down a bit and enjoyed our retirement.

[Michael Charles]

As I get older I find myself remembering my father's words to me that the cemetery has many bodies that had "the right of way"

[EdFNJ]

The cited code “allows a pedestrian, WITH A PERMITTED SIGNAL, to cross a roadway“ at a signalized intersection.

Does that mean the driver of a car can just hit a pedestrian who is illegally crossing? No. Duh. But does that mean a person who steps into the crosswalk without a “permitted signal” has the right-of-way? Absolutely not. It is NOT the law.

Now, regarding that dog pee...

You might want to read the second sentence (paragraph B) under what you PARTIALLY quoted:

(b) The driver of a vehicle at any crosswalk where signage so indicates shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross a roadway when the pedestrian is in the crosswalk or steps into the crosswalk and is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger.

Dumb rule or not (def DUMB) it's the law. Really now, OBVIOUSLY a driver can't just hit a pedestrian, but that isn't the issue in question, the issue is what the law states. If you get a few seconds of free time also read paragraph (C).

[dougjb]

Look...when in doubt...ALWAYS yield. Otherwise, go argue in court that you ran over a pedestrian because you had the right of way...even when you saw that pedestrian and had the opportunity to stop. In The Villages, never be in a hurry! We all have a right to live...even if one has to spend a few extra moments in the car!

[EdFNJ]

What "legally" defines a "marked crosswalk"? Specifically around the square in Brownwood? Good question but I would guess if (for example) the entire road is paved in blacktop and there is an obvious path of stone pavers from one side to the other in the shape of a pathway that likely might be considered a crosswalk.

Here, from Google:

WHAT IS THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF A CROSSWALK?

The 2000 Uniform Vehicle Code and Model Traffic Ordinance (Uniform Vehicle Code) (Section 1-112) defines a crosswalk as: (1)

"That part of a roadway at an intersection included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs, or in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the traversable roadway; and in the absence of a sidewalk on one side of the roadway, the part of a roadway included within the extension of the lateral lines of the existing sidewalk at right angles to the centerline.
Any portion of a roadway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface."

Thus, a crosswalk at an intersection is defined as the extension of the sidewalk or the shoulder across the intersection, regardless of whether it is marked or not. The only way a crosswalk can exist at a midblock location is if it is marked. Most jurisdictions have crosswalk laws that make it legal for pedestrians to cross the street at any intersection, whether marked or not, unless the pedestrian crossing is specifically prohibited.

According to Section 3B.17 of the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD), crosswalks serve the following purposes: (2)

"Crosswalk markings provide guidance for pedestrians who are crossing roadways by defining and delineating paths on approaches to and within signalized intersections, and on approaches to other intersections where traffic stops.

Crosswalk markings also serve to alert road users of a pedestrian crossing point across roadways not controlled by traffic signals or STOP signs.

At intersection locations, crosswalk markings legally establish the crosswalk."
Chapter 1 - Safety Effects of Marked Versus Unmarked Crosswalks at Uncontrolled Locations Final Report and Recommended Guidelines, September 2005 - FHWA-HRT-04-100 (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/04100/01.cfm)

[Polar Bear]

You might want to read the second sentence (paragraph B) under what you PARTIALLY quoted:

(b) The driver of a vehicle at any crosswalk where signage so indicates shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross a roadway when the pedestrian is in the crosswalk or steps into the crosswalk[/U] and is upon the half of the roadway upon which the vehicle is traveling or when the pedestrian is approaching so closely from the opposite half of the roadway as to be in danger.

Dumb rule or not (def DUMB) it's the law. Really now, OBVIOUSLY a driver can't just hit a pedestrian, but that isn't the issue in question, the issue is what the law states. If you get a few seconds of free time also read paragraph (C).
I’ll quote again from your quote above...

“The driver of a vehicle at any crosswalk WHERE SIGNAGE SO INDICATES shall stop and remain stopped to allow a pedestrian to cross a roadway”.

It’s not a dumb rule. It’s just being grossly misinterpreted.

[theruizs]

This all used to drive me nuts. After being away from the rat race for a while now and realizing I just have no reason to hurry about, I try to take all in stride. Yes, I agree, when you have the right away you should take it. But if someone isn’t going to give it to you just let them have it. They likely haven’t had time to mellow out yet, so just cut them some slack. You’ll keep your own peace better too. But with pedestrians, they always have the right away in crosswalks, period. And since that is a multi-modal path, it is a crosswalk there. But even if they aren’t in a crosswalk, is it really worth getting upset about or upsetting someone else?

[coffeebean]

What "legally" defines a "marked crosswalk"? Specifically around the square in Brownwood?

Is it incorrect to assume the pavers in the road are the crosswalk? I know it is not the designated markings but wondering if others also take those pavers to be a crosswalk.

[EdFNJ]

Is it incorrect to assume the pavers in the road are the crosswalk? I know it is not the designated markings but wondering if others also take those pavers to be a crosswalk.Look back 3 posts ... yes, it is a crosswalk.

[coffeebean]

My concern is not who has right of way but who can be sued successfully in the event of an accident. Can a person be sued successfully even if they had right of way? What does the law say about that?

Scenario for above: Vehicle has green light at intersection.
Pedestrian has red light at intersection.
Pedestrian steps into the crosswalk and the driver of the vehicle has little or no time to react and hits the pedestrian.

Can the driver of the vehicle be sued and lose the case because the driver hit a pedestrian in a crosswalk?

[Bogie Shooter]

Is it incorrect to assume the pavers in the road are the crosswalk? I know it is not the designated markings but wondering if others also take those pavers to be a crosswalk.

Check for previous walkers blood stains...…………………………………� �………….or dog pee circles!

[Koapaka]

Brings to mind the old commercials they use to run back in the day telling you to always be careful whenever "right of ways" are in question.....they would remind us that you can be right....DEAD right. I would defer my "right of way" to being hit by a vehicle any day.

[davidkath]

My son went to ONU. Ada?

David Kathary