Covid and the upcoming elections, planning should start now

[blueash]

With the uncertainty of Covid and the possibility that it will still be an active problem for many months, now is the time for Florida to plan for how Covid might impact election days.
Wisconsin just had a nightmare election. Forced by the court to be held on a technicality they had locations refuse to be voting locations. If you ran a nursing home do you want voters there? They had so few of the volunteer poll workers show up, most being senior citizens that polling places were shut down.

Milwaukee (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2020/03/31/coronavirus-milwaukee-voting-sites-cut-180-fewer-than-12/5099739002/) normally has 180 voting locations. On Tuesday they had 5 (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/07/wisconsin-april-7-presidential-primary-election-updates-voting-pandemic-milwaukee-polling-places/2959757001/). Yes, just 5. All but one county had to use the National Guard in their locations as workers. Politician (https://news.yahoo.com/robin-vos-wisconsin-encourage-voting-election-wearing-protective-equipment-215821587.html) wearing a mask and PPE told voters “You are incredibly safe to go out.” to vote perhaps not understanding his visual message was a mismatch to his words.
Attempts to expand vote by mail were denied. There were multiple stories of counties bungling those vote by mail requests they did receive.
Milwaukee County Executive Chris Abele is one of thousands of residents in Wisconsin who requested but did not get an absentee ballot by Tuesday

It is entirely possible but not certain that people caught Covid voting in person or acting as poll workers. I know who I'd hold responsible for that.

So let's not have it happen in Florida. The primary election is August 18th. The general election is Nov 3rd. In recent years the number of days to early vote has been cut back (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2011/may/23/kurt-browning/flexibility-early-voting-means-possibly-less-hours/) meaning more people vote each of the remaining dates. Also the number of locations is limited.

Florida has no excuse required vote by mail. That's great. One would think it would be easy to, if needed, send a ballot to every voter to vote by mail. Oregon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote-by-mail_in_Oregon) does this for every election.

A detailed article in the Miami Herald (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article241809436.html) inspired this post. It reports that the Florida Supervisors of Elections representing every county in the state has written a letter to the Governor and the Sec of State asking for modifications in state requirements for the upcoming elections. The article mentions that after the recently completed Presidential primary on March 17th, two poll workers in Dade tested positive for Covid. The first positive test result in Dade county was March 12th.

I believe that the state should authorize and require each county to print and be prepared to mail a ballot to every registered voter whether or not they have requested a vote by mail. That those ballots should be able to be returned without requiring the voter pay for postage. If Covid is persisting or returning a trip to buy a stamp should not be needed to vote. Many people do not have stamps at home. And no one should be forced to pay to vote regardless.

Additionally the opportunity to vote early needs to be expanded both as to the number of dates and the locations. This will decrease exposure risks in the situation where Covid is diminished to the point we are no longer under stay at home, but there remains a risk of gathering in groups, especially indoor.

[tophcfa]

Not voting in person raises serious fraudulent voting concerns.

[golfing eagles]

With the uncertainty of Covid and the possibility that it will still be an active problem for many months, now is the time for Florida to plan for how Covid might impact election days.
Wisconsin just had a nightmare election. Forced by the court to be held on a technicality they had locations refuse to be voting locations. If you ran a nursing home do you want voters there? They had so few of the volunteer poll workers show up, most being senior citizens that polling places were shut down.

Milwaukee (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/milwaukee/2020/03/31/coronavirus-milwaukee-voting-sites-cut-180-fewer-than-12/5099739002/) normally has 180 voting locations. On Tuesday they had 5 (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/07/wisconsin-april-7-presidential-primary-election-updates-voting-pandemic-milwaukee-polling-places/2959757001/). Yes, just 5. All but one county had to use the National Guard in their locations as workers.
Attempts to expand vote by mail were denied. There were multiple stories of counties bungling those vote by mail requests they did receive.


It is entirely possible but not certain that people caught Covid voting in person or acting as poll workers. I know who I'd hold responsible for that.

So let's not have it happen in Florida. The primary election is August 18th. The general election is Nov 3rd. In recent years the number of days to early vote has been cut back (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2011/may/23/kurt-browning/flexibility-early-voting-means-possibly-less-hours/) meaning more people vote each of the remaining dates. Also the number of locations is limited.

Florida has no excuse required vote by mail. That's great. One would think it would be easy to, if needed, send a ballot to every voter to vote by mail. Oregon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote-by-mail_in_Oregon) does this for every election.

A detailed article in the Miami Herald (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article241809436.html) inspired this post. It reports that the Florida Supervisors of Elections representing every county in the state has written a letter to the Governor and the Sec of State asking for modifications in state requirements for the upcoming elections. The article mentions that after the recently completed Presidential primary on March 17th, two poll workers in Dade tested positive for Covid. The first positive test result in Dade county was March 12th.

I believe that the state should authorize and require each county to print and be prepared to mail a ballot to every registered voter whether or not they have requested a vote by mail. That those ballots should be able to be returned without requiring the voter pay for postage. If Covid is persisting or returning a trip to buy a stamp should not be needed to vote. Many people do not have stamps at home. And no one should be forced to pay to vote regardless.

Additionally the opportunity to vote early needs to be expanded both as to the number of dates and the locations. This will decrease exposure risks in the situation where Covid is diminished to the point we are no longer under stay at home, but there remains a risk of gathering in groups, especially indoor.

Great----now we can have election fraud and those guilty don't even have to pay $0.49

[manaboutown]

Voting by mail invites tremendous voter fraud. Voter IDs need to be verified.

We would end up with a voter fraud pandemic on top of the Chinese virus pandemic. No thanks!

[billethkid]

You can bet there is planning going on in Washington....both parties.

If the national election (November) is an issue of any sort then we as a country is/will be dealing with a more serious pandemic than currently being viewed.

[DianeM]

I can support early voting but I will not support voting by mail. Voter ID is imperative and voting by mail affords too many opportunities for cheating. Great Aunt Tilley died in 1983 but dad gum she got out of her grave to vote. And not electronic voting either. Show up at a polling place or don’t vote with a few exceptions such as military or out of town.

[blueash]

I can support early voting but I will not support voting by mail. Voter ID is imperative and voting by mail affords too many opportunities for cheating. Great Aunt Tilley died in 1983 but dad gum she got out of her grave to vote. And not electronic voting either. Show up at a polling place or don’t vote with a few exceptions such as military or out of town.

Well "dad gum" I've been voting by mail in Florida for years. How come Florida hasn't shut it down if it is so prone to fraud? Please explain how "out of town" is allowable to you? Wouldn't all those millions of people who want to commit fraud just say they're out of town?

[blueash]

Voting by mail invites tremendous voter fraud. Voter IDs need to be verified.

We would end up with a voter fraud pandemic on top of the Chinese virus pandemic. No thanks!

You know who votes by mail? Donald Trump. If it's good enough for him why isn't it good enough for the average person?

[DianeM]

Well "dad gum" I've been voting by mail in Florida for years. How come Florida hasn't shut it down if it is so prone to fraud? Please explain how "out of town" is allowable to you? Wouldn't all those millions of people who want to commit fraud just say they're out of town?

Were you not around for the debacle over governor DeSantis election where ballots were “lost” to pad one side’s candidate. Not my problem if your lazy ass won’t go to a polling place. Voter ID or you don’t vote is truly the only way. People generally know far in advance if out of town and should be made to prove it before a mail in ballot is supplied.

[DianeM]

You know who votes by mail? Donald Trump. If it's good enough for him why isn't it good enough for the average person?

Seriously? Because he lives in Florida but works his ass off every day in Washington.

[blueash]

I can support early voting but I will not support voting by mail. Voter ID is imperative and voting by mail affords too many opportunities for cheating. Great Aunt Tilley died in 1983 but dad gum she got out of her grave to vote. And not electronic voting either. Show up at a polling place or don’t vote with a few exceptions such as military or out of town.

You do know don't you that your mail in signature must match your on record signature for the ballot to be counted? Your signature is your matching ID. And Florida has used it for years.

[DianeM]

You do know don't you that your mail in signature must match your on record signature for the ballot to be counted? Your signature is your matching ID. And Florida has used it for years.

Hmmm didn’t work so well in the governor election did it ?

[Marvic 1]

I've been voting by mail in Florida for years. How come Florida hasn't shut it down if it is so prone to fraud?

A lot of people in Florida are voting with mail in ballots for those who have out of state address, including our President who now resides in Washington DC but real address is in Florida...
Mail in voting for everyone has been pushed by the Left-Wing for many years not just this election year because of Coronavirus.
Judicial Watch found that their were over 1,000,000 fraud mail in votes just in California alone..

[blueash]

I made a mistake. It happens. I only mentioned Oregon has having elections by mail. I failed to include
Washington state, Colorado, Utah, and Hawaii do the same. All by mail.
California does it in some counties including LA county
1/2 the counties of North Dakota are vote by mail

I am aware that one political party screams a lot about fraud. And there certainly is a potential for someone to hijack an envelope and fill in the form for the legitimate voter, then either forge a signature or compel the voter to sign the outside. Evidence please?

I only know of one example of significant potential fraud. It was in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district _election) in North Carolina where operatives of the GOP did exactly that and an entire election was thrown out by the court.

The argument of potential fraud is important. The evidence of it being a problem is almost nil. In 2016, the last POTUS election, about 25% of all votes cast were by mail. Please find me reports of fraudulent mail in ballots. I don't deny it may happen. What I deny is that is must be happening and that mail in voting is inherently dangerous to democracy. All those states would disagree. They include states run by the GOP.

So all you nay-sayers.. you'd rather risk lots of exposure to Covid and a new major outbreak with a new economic shut down instead of planning an alternative approach to conducting our elections IF Covid is an ongoing problem in August and November?


Apparently Florida's county election supervisors most of whom are GOP also believe something needs to be planned. If you out of hand reject mail in ballots, and I trust none of you vote by mail, what if anything should the state be doing now to plan for the possibility of having Covid still here at the next election period?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Voting by mail invites tremendous voter fraud. Voter IDs need to be verified.

We would end up with a voter fraud pandemic on top of the Chinese virus pandemic. No thanks!

That is political propaganda horsepucky. There are many states that provide mail-in ballots (including Florida), with very little actual fraud going on. The percentage of actual fraud (as opposed to assumed, alleged, accused, or supposed) is not even statistically significant.

With the singular exception of manipulation in North Carolina, during a single election, this just flat out isn't a "thing."

The only people who are fighting against it, are people who have a lot to lose if ALL citizens have better access to casting a vote. They are against it because they are afraid that if more people vote - more people will vote against them. And they would probably be correct.

But it's fear that keeps the votes out of peoples' hands, not fraud.

[golfing eagles]

That is political propaganda horsepucky. There are many states that provide mail-in ballots (including Florida), with very little actual fraud going on. The percentage of actual fraud (as opposed to assumed, alleged, accused, or supposed) is not even statistically significant.

With the singular exception of manipulation in North Carolina, during a single election, this just flat out isn't a "thing."

The only people who are fighting against it, are people who have a lot to lose if ALL citizens have better access to casting a vote. They are against it because they are afraid that if more people vote - more people will vote against them. And they would probably be correct.

But it's fear that keeps the votes out of peoples' hands, not fraud.

You mean fear such as having the new black panthers hanging out just outside polling places?

But you are right in a way, dead people have no fear, and they vote early and often, 99.9% for one party.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud

The woman in Ohio who voted 7 times had no fear either, and she worked for the election board.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud.

I strongly support in person voting and voter ID. An election should be won at the ballot box, not by the candidate that generates the most fraud. This isn't Venezuela

[blueash]

Mail in voting for everyone has been pushed by the Left-Wing for many years not just this election year because of Coronavirus.
Judicial Watch found that their were over 1,000,000 fraud mail in votes just in California alone..

I eagerly await your posting of a link showing that Judicial Watch found one million fraud mail in votes in California [hint you are wrong, totally wrong]

I'd also like you reveal who all those left wingers are in Utah and North Dakota who were able to force those GOP controlled states to adopt vote by mail. I'm still awaiting your actual idea as to what should be done to making voting safe in a Covid environment. If you reject vote by mail, and you'd better change Florida law if you fear it is too risky, what do you support? More voting days to spread out the number of people at the polls? Vote by internet? Longer hours? More voting sites? Outdoor voting sites? Giving everyone PPE as they get to a voting site? What do you want people to do?

Or is it just, if you're too scaredy cat to vote with Covid then stay home and accept the decision of those more courageous or foolish. What is your plan, if any?

[DianeM]

I made a mistake. It happens. I only mentioned Oregon has having elections by mail. I failed to include
Washington state, Colorado, Utah, and Hawaii do the same. All by mail.
California does it in some counties including LA county
1/2 the counties of North Dakota are vote by mail

I am aware that one political party screams a lot about fraud. And there certainly is a potential for someone to hijack an envelope and fill in the form for the legitimate voter, then either forge a signature or compel the voter to sign the outside. Evidence please?

I only know of one example of significant potential fraud. It was in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district _election) in North Carolina where operatives of the GOP did exactly that and an entire election was thrown out by the court.

The argument of potential fraud is important. The evidence of it being a problem is almost nil. In 2016, the last POTUS election, about 25% of all votes cast were by mail. Please find me reports of fraudulent mail in ballots. I don't deny it may happen. What I deny is that is must be happening and that mail in voting is inherently dangerous to democracy. All those states would disagree. They include states run by the GOP.

So all you nay-sayers.. you'd rather risk lots of exposure to Covid and a new major outbreak with a new economic shut down instead of planning an alternative approach to conducting our elections IF Covid is an ongoing problem in August and November?


Apparently Florida's county election supervisors most of whom are GOP also believe something needs to be planned. If you out of hand reject mail in ballots, and I trust none of you vote by mail, what if anything should the state be doing now to plan for the possibility of having Covid still here at the next election period?

Never voted by mail and never will.

[GoodLife]

Never let a crisis go to waste

Hey let's change voting laws because coronavirus!!!

I'd be very careful accepting voting law advice from random internet posters who may have an agenda.

Anybody here have a Doctorate in Voteology or forgery?

[DianeM]

That is political propaganda horsepucky. There are many states that provide mail-in ballots (including Florida), with very little actual fraud going on. The percentage of actual fraud (as opposed to assumed, alleged, accused, or supposed) is not even statistically significant.

With the singular exception of manipulation in North Carolina, during a single election, this just flat out isn't a "thing."

The only people who are fighting against it, are people who have a lot to lose if ALL citizens have better access to casting a vote. They are against it because they are afraid that if more people vote - more people will vote against them. And they would probably be correct.

But it's fear that keeps the votes out of peoples' hands, not fraud.

I call “bull” on that. Every CITIZEN has the right and the responsibility to vote. The more that vote, the better. We are dreadfully apathetic as a nation when it comes to voting. Those that don’t vote now are not going to vote in the mail either. Show your ID and vote as you wish.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Another issue with forcing people to actually be physically present to vote:

People who are citizens of the country, stationed overseas for their jobs, or whose jobs have them out of the country that month (such as international business moguls and their entire staff, including bodyguards, secretaries, clerks, scheduling secretaries, wardrobe coordinators, public relations directors, directors of photography, etc. etc. etc.).

Also low-income people who live in rural areas with no mass transit, and no way to GET to the polls, if they are more than a few miles away (since they would otherwise walk, or ride a bicycle, or ride a tractor).

There's the additional problem with volume: some of these polling centers have been at nursing homes, precisely to allow those people living in the nursing homes the opportunity to vote without dealing with the logistics of getting an entire building's worth of limited-mobility patients to some other place to vote. During a pandemic - do you REALLY want to know that your elderly Aunt Sophie will have to endure EVERYONE who lives NEAR that nursing home showing up to vote that day? Because - those nursing home polling places are not limited to only the residents at the homes. Everyone who lives in that district has the right to show up and vote there.

Preparation - consideration, planning, ruling things out, adding things in, discussing the situation, is crucial or we'll end up with the same disaster of a vote experienced in Wisconsin, but on a national level.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I call “bull” on that. Every CITIZEN has the right and the responsibility to vote. The more that vote, the better. We are dreadfully apathetic as a nation when it comes to voting. Those that don’t vote now are not going to vote in the mail either. Show your ID and vote as you wish.

A significant portion of citizens who vote in this country, vote by mail. INCLUDING IN FLORIDA.

And, there are more people who have voted in the recent primaries (not including Wisconsin, which has been a disaster) than in previous primaries of previous presidential elections. Including more mail-in votes in states that offer it. So - current facts show you are incorrect.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Never let a crisis go to waste

Hey let's change voting laws because coronavirus!!!

I'd be very careful accepting voting law advice from random internet posters who may have an agenda.

Anybody here have a Doctorate in Voteology or forgery?

Current law says mail-in votes are valid, so I agree with what you say. We need to not change laws just because of a virus. We need to encourage all states to reflect the safety of their citizens, by implementing provisions that are already legal and currently implemented in other states.

[DianeM]

Another issue with forcing people to actually be physically present to vote:

People who are citizens of the country, stationed overseas for their jobs, or whose jobs have them out of the country that month (such as international business moguls and their entire staff, including bodyguards, secretaries, clerks, scheduling secretaries, wardrobe coordinators, public relations directors, directors of photography, etc. etc. etc.).

Also low-income people who live in rural areas with no mass transit, and no way to GET to the polls, if they are more than a few miles away (since they would otherwise walk, or ride a bicycle, or ride a tractor).

There's the additional problem with volume: some of these polling centers have been at nursing homes, precisely to allow those people living in the nursing homes the opportunity to vote without dealing with the logistics of getting an entire building's worth of limited-mobility patients to some other place to vote. During a pandemic - do you REALLY want to know that your elderly Aunt Sophie will have to endure EVERYONE who lives NEAR that nursing home showing up to vote that day? Because - those nursing home polling places are not limited to only the residents at the homes. Everyone who lives in that district has the right to show up and vote there.

Preparation - consideration, planning, ruling things out, adding things in, discussing the situation, is crucial or we'll end up with the same disaster of a vote experienced in Wisconsin, but on a national level.

Ah yes - the poor people propaganda. Even lower income areas have sites which could serve as a polling station such as schools or other federal locations.

We already covered the out of town and military.

Nursing homes should never be used as polling places and I truly don’t believe they ever were as they are private property.

We have voted in person for eons and that truly is the only way to keep things honest. Voter ID or you don’t vote.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

You mean fear such as having the new black panthers hanging out just outside polling places?

But you are right in a way, dead people have no fear, and they vote early and often, 99.9% for one party.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud

The woman in Ohio who voted 7 times had no fear either, and she worked for the election board.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud.

I strongly support in person voting and voter ID. An election should be won at the ballot box, not by the candidate that generates the most fraud. This isn't Venezuela

1. The woman in Ohio voted 6 times, was caught, and was punished for it. And - to the shock and surprise of absolutely no one ever - the extra votes had NO impact on the outcome of the vote, because it was statistically insignificant.
2. Please read what I actually posted, instead of your knee-jerk emotional response to something I never wrote. Seems you've been triggered. I'm sorry you feel the need to lash out at anything that causes discomfort to you. Perhaps you should take a big step back and allow for people who enjoy actual discussion, rather than reactive outbursts, to continue discussing.

3. Mail in balloting, unchecked, can create problems. That's why it's important to plan AHEAD and create checks and balances, methods and policies, procedures and fail-safes.

4. When I voted at the Paradise Rec Center in the recent primary, no one checked my ID. They checked the piece of mail that had my address on it - but they didn't check to make sure I was the one bringing that piece of mail in. That was at the actual polling place, in person. I'd be more worried about that, than mail-ins, which require matching signatures.

[blueash]

I'd really prefer to keep this thread focused on what to do for 2020. What planning needs to be done now to have procedures in place in case we have ongoing Covid problems at election time. I am not looking to debate fraud and mail in ballots, but not shy about the issue either. I am not looking to debate general issues of disenfranchisement. This thread was started because ALL the counties, GOP and DEM have asked the governor to make a plan.

[DianeM]

1. The woman in Ohio voted 6 times, was caught, and was punished for it. And - to the shock and surprise of absolutely no one ever - the extra votes had NO impact on the outcome of the vote, because it was statistically insignificant.
2. Please read what I actually posted, instead of your knee-jerk emotional response to something I never wrote. Seems you've been triggered. I'm sorry you feel the need to lash out at anything that causes discomfort to you. Perhaps you should take a big step back and allow for people who enjoy actual discussion, rather than reactive outbursts, to continue discussing.

3. Mail in balloting, unchecked, can create problems. That's why it's important to plan AHEAD and create checks and balances, methods and policies, procedures and fail-safes.

4. When I voted at the Paradise Rec Center in the recent primary, no one checked my ID. They checked the piece of mail that had my address on it - but they didn't check to make sure I was the one bringing that piece of mail in. That was at the actual polling place, in person. I'd be more worried about that, than mail-ins, which require matching signatures.

#1 okay her multiple voting had no effect but what if there were several hundred doing the same thing?

#4 that Rec center should be reported to the voting offices. I have been ID’d every time for the 9 years I have lived in Florida both here and in Orlando. Truly as it should be.

[blueash]

Nursing homes should never be used as polling places and I truly don’t believe they ever were as they are private property.



Churches are private property and used for voting. The rec centers here are private property and used for voting.

What you truly don't believe may not reflect reality. That is why I always encourage people to fact check as well as they can to see if "what they believe" is reality or fiction.
nursing homes as election sites - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=nursing+homes+as+election+sites&ie=&oe=) that might help you correct your belief. Florida uses nursing homes. Do you think those are good spots for the next election cycle?

Tampa Bay Times March 11, 2020
The Pinellas elections office also said Wednesday it was moving polling places for nine precincts that had originally been located at eight different assisted-living facilities because of concerns that voters and poll workers would imperil older residents more susceptible to the virus.

Clickorlando.com Mar 11 2020
DeSantis urged elections officials to move polling places located at nursing homes

Yes, nursing homes and assisted living facilities are often used. The thinking "I believe" was this would make it easier for those residents to be able to vote.

So, does the state need to be making plans now to find alternative voting locations? If you want to use the schools, should election day be a school holiday? Plan now as if there are problems in October it will be too late.

[DianeM]

Churches are private property and used for voting. The rec centers here are private property and used for voting.

What you truly don't believe may not reflect reality. That is why I always encourage people to fact check as well as they can to see if "what they believe" is reality or fiction.
nursing homes as election sites - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=nursing+homes+as+election+sites&ie=&oe=) that might help you correct your belief. Florida uses nursing homes. Do you think those are good spots for the next election cycle?

Tampa Bay Times March 11, 2020
The Pinellas elections office also said Wednesday it was moving polling places for nine precincts that had originally been located at eight different assisted-living facilities because of concerns that voters and poll workers would imperil older residents more susceptible to the virus.

Clickorlando.com Mar 11 2020
DeSantis urged elections officials to move polling places located at nursing homes

Yes, nursing homes and assisted living facilities are often used. The thinking "I believe" was this would make it easier for those residents to be able to vote.

So, does the state need to be making plans now to find alternative voting locations? If you want to use the schools, should election day be a school holiday? Plan now as if there are problems in October it will be too late.

Okay I’ll drink the koolaid on nursing homes.

As for schools - in New York (where thankfully I’m from), elections were always at schools, both public and private, and yes they were closed.

[blueash]

Okay I’ll drink the koolaid on nursing homes.

As for schools - in New York (where thankfully I’m from), elections were always at schools, both public and private, and yes they were closed.

It is not koolaid, it is just you had your fact wrong, as I pointed out. Now I will point out that in Florida which is the topic of this thread, schools are not closed on election day. Should that change? or should schools be eliminated as voting sites? It is not just election day that requires extra activity in the school but the day before which requires that the site be made ready with equipment and wiring and security. So actually two days of school disruption.

[DianeM]

That's the second time you have posted that exact claim. Evidence please? How about actually dealing with the topic of the thread. What should be done now to plan to hold an election in a Covid active situation? Other than not let dead people vote.

Leave it as it is. Likely November will no longer be the insanity we’re seeing now.

[blueash]

Eric Eggers: You Don't Have to Take Trump's Word to See Mail-In Vote Fraud (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/09/eric-eggers-trump-mail-in-vote-fraud/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0d23qDOv6RKrDSpx6ESIrm-hl99NWNBR0z6rpA9fv0l9XvvwlL3w6_V5o&fbclid=IwAR3hAn3npFoaYt5yTAIcC3h1RwmxXMzlDurZOIYQI RUwnqHvwNkOcEq-fvc)

I read your link to a Breitbart story. In the article they cite exactly ONE case of known fraud where a blind person swore that his ballot was stolen. I could find more cases of mail in fraud using google. I also could find more cases of vote in person fraud using google. The rest of the Breitbart article was opinion, unsupported by evidence. After reading the article I guess I am guilt of something they find fraudulent. I may have taken a mail in ballot that was not my own to the mail box. Horrors.

[CarolSells]

I personally believe that every able bodied American should, if at all possible, vote in person at their designated polling place. I recognize that there are many legitimate exceptions.

People complain about standing in line but they’ll cheerfully stand in line for at least an hour to get into the Haunted House attraction at Disney World.

Early voting seems to work; in 2016 I breezed right in and out of my polling place here in TV.

Massive voting by mail here in Florida? What could possibly go wrong? ������

[DianeM]

I personally believe that every able bodied American should, if at all possible, vote in person at their designated polling place. I recognize that there are many legitimate exceptions.

People complain about standing in line but they’ll cheerfully stand in line for at least an hour to get into the Haunted House attraction at Disney World.

Early voting seems to work; in 2016 I breezed right in and out of my polling place here in TV.

Massive voting by mail here in Florida? What could possibly go wrong? ������

Your Disney comparison is perfect and spot on.

[blueash]

You asked me if schools are used should they be closed. I responded with the info I had experience with. It is not a two day process. Voting equipment is delivered the night before when no classes are in session.

Not here in the Villages. As I pointed out I am asking about Florida. The rooms in the rec centers which are to be used for voting are closed the day before, not the night before. Your experience in NY may not apply here. You still didn't tell me if the rules in Florida should be changed so that schools are closed on election day. That would be planning ahead. School calendars are finalized in the summer or before. Some schools need to clear changes well ahead of time because of negotiated contracts. An extra day might need to be added to make up for the cancelled day or days. Planning is what I am asking about.

[Rags123]

You mean fear such as having the new black panthers hanging out just outside polling places?

But you are right in a way, dead people have no fear, and they vote early and often, 99.9% for one party.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud

The woman in Ohio who voted 7 times had no fear either, and she worked for the election board.

Oh yeah, there's no election fraud.

I strongly support in person voting and voter ID. An election should be won at the ballot box, not by the candidate that generates the most fraud. This isn't Venezuela

From recollection, and can trace links for you , but I have read much on this subject and there were election frauds found in the TEENS...less than 20 in Ohio during the election you site.

Actually the only voter fraud I have read of any consequences happened in North Carolina where ballots were manipulated to such a degree, the election had to be re done.

There just has been NO fraud to speak of with mail ins

[golfing eagles]

From recollection, and can trace links for you , but I have read much on this subject and there were election frauds found in the TEENS...less than 20 in Ohio during the election you site.

Actually the only voter fraud I have read of any consequences happened in North Carolina where ballots were manipulated to such a degree, the election had to be re done.

There just has been NO fraud to speak of with mail ins

a) Election fraud does exist, anyone who doesn't believe that must live in Fantasyland

b) To date, I agree that the election fraud in the US has been minimal and has not impacted the results of any national election

c) Mail in ballot fraud is also minimal, mostly because such a small percentage of voting is done by mail, mostly military and those travelling

d) However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, if 100% of the voting was done by mail, you can guarantee the amount of fraud will be huge, and very well might have an impact on the results

[manaboutown]

LBJ won his first elected office with ballot box stuffing, a form of voter fraud. Box 13 scandal - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_13_scandal)

Voters need to be assiduously identified.

[blueash]

I personally believe that every able bodied American should, if at all possible, vote in person at their designated polling place. I recognize that there are many legitimate exceptions.

People complain about standing in line but they’ll cheerfully stand in line for at least an hour to get into the Haunted House attraction at Disney World.

Early voting seems to work; in 2016 I breezed right in and out of my polling place here in TV.

Massive voting by mail here in Florida? What could possibly go wrong? ������

You do know we already have "massive voting by mail" here in Florida. Do you think we should repeal that law? Over 2.5 million of the 8 million total people voted by mail in the general election in 2018. Either that election was a fraud or we should accept the outcome as legitimate. If you accept the results, then why would you reject a result in which more voted by mail. Would you find standing in line during a Covid outbreak as much fun at a line at Disney World. They did close Disney World due to Covid risk.

Voting in person may provide a tiny increased voter security. How many additional deaths is ok by having forced stand in line for that tiny added security? How would you change anything in November if we have an uptick in Covid in October as happened in 1918 after they thought the flu had quieted down? other than getting rid of mail in votes and having people stand in line of course. We could call the Corona-ride!

[Moderator]

This thread is on life support. If you want to discuss the topic, it will survive. If you want to continue throwing rocks at each other, it won’t last long. Your choice.

Moderator

[CarolSells]

“In 2016, the elections department sent out incomplete mail-in ballots. Lawsuits filed after that election also accused the office of opening mail-in ballots in private and illegally destroying ballots prematurely. In 2012, nearly 1,000 ballots were found uncounted in an elections department warehouse.”

Courthousenews.com

[blueash]

Yes they should be closed for Election Day. There! Happy now?. And truly what does schools have to do with registered voters in TV? You vote in your district. But you wouldn’t know that because you’re too lazy to be bothered showing up.

I am asking for a plan for the entire state of Florida, not for here only. Read the first post on the thread. Read about what just happened in Wisconsin. Click the links. See that GOP election officials are asking for a plan and there is not one at this time. So all those people who vote by mail are lazy. Good to know. I have always said lazy people should be denied the vote. You have convinced me and now I support a requirement for completion of an obstacle course before you can get to the ballot box.

It is important that qualified voters be energetic and also prove they have been working out regularly. I'd support no more renewing your driver's license via the mail or pay your real estate tax bill. Go stand in line you lazy person. Oh, no more paying your gas or electric except going to the SECO and TECO building and pay in person. Yes, choosing to do something by mail rather than in person is absolutely evidence of lazy. Thanks for clearing that up.

[DianeM]

I am asking for a plan for the entire state of Florida, not for here only. Read the first post on the thread. Read about what just happened in Wisconsin. Click the links. See that GOP election officials are asking for a plan and there is not one at this time. So all those people who vote by mail are lazy. Good to know. I have always said lazy people should be denied the vote. You have convinced me and now I support a requirement for completion of an obstacle course before you can get to the ballot box.

It is important that qualified voters be energetic and also prove they have been working out regularly. I'd support no more renewing your driver's license via the mail or pay your real estate tax bill. Go stand in line you lazy person. Oh, no more paying your gas or electric except going to the SECO and TECO building and pay in person. Yes, choosing to do something by mail rather than in person is absolutely evidence of lazy. Thanks for clearing that up.

No problem. It truly was my pleasure. Energy has nothing to do with it. Validity does.

[blueash]

“In 2016, the elections department sent out incomplete mail-in ballots. Lawsuits filed after that election also accused the office of opening mail-in ballots in private and illegally destroying ballots prematurely. In 2012, nearly 1,000 ballots were found uncounted in an elections department warehouse.”

Courthousenews.com

Yes Florida elections are a mess. The hanging chads ballot was in person voting. I'm not sure what point you're making about the 2012 ballots that were found late. 83% of them were ballots cast at the voting site. So apparently having people vote in person does not guarantee a perfect election. Is that your point?

[blueash]

This thread is on life support. If you want to discuss the topic, it will survive. If you want to continue throwing rocks at each other, it won’t last long. Your choice.

Moderator

Thanks for trying. I am concerned about whether there are enough ventilators if we need to go on life support. /s

[blueash]

a) Election fraud does exist, anyone who doesn't believe that must live in Fantasyland

b) To date, I agree that the election fraud in the US has been minimal and has not impacted the results of any national election

c) Mail in ballot fraud is also minimal, mostly because such a small percentage of voting is done by mail, mostly military and those travelling

d) However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, if 100% of the voting was done by mail, you can guarantee the amount of fraud will be huge, and very well might have an impact on the results

b may not be true. It is unclear if JFK won Illinois because of fraud. Older elections including Hayes are also in doubt.

c as has been noted, a large % of votes in Florida are by mail, and 100% in several states are by mail. No one has found evidence of significant fraud, nor has it even been alleged to be an issue in those states.

d is an opinion.

[DianeM]

This thread is on life support. If you want to discuss the topic, it will survive. If you want to continue throwing rocks at each other, it won’t last long. Your choice.

Moderator

Probably not the worst idea. It’s going to get uglier and uglier.

[blueash]

Leave it as it is. Likely November will no longer be the insanity we’re seeing now.

Thank you. You have given your reply to my initial question. No need to have a contingency plan for November because it is unlikely there will be a problem.
I certainly hope you are right about the no problem part. I have always thought that planning for foreseeable problems was a good idea. I wear my seat belt just in case.

[CarolSells]

Yes Florida elections are a mess. The hanging chads ballot was in person voting. I'm not sure what point you're making about the 2012 ballots that were found late. 83% of them were ballots cast at the voting site. So apparently having people vote in person does not guarantee a perfect election. Is that your point?

No. My cited source was to emphasize the possible and, IMO, the potential probability (due to human handling of ballots and ensuing errors) of skewed returns.

Mr/Ms Moderator, we are having a civil exchange. 🌞

[Marvic 1]

Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)I eagerly await your posting of a link showing that Judicial Watch found one million fraud mail in votes in California [hint you are wrong, totally wrong]

I'd also like you reveal who all those left wingers are in Utah and North Dakota who were able to force those GOP controlled states to adopt vote by mail. I'm still awaiting your actual idea as to what should be done to making voting safe in a Covid environment. If you reject vote by mail, and you'd better change Florida law if you fear it is too risky, what do you support? More voting days to spread out the number of people at the polls? Vote by internet? Longer hours? More voting sites? Outdoor voting sites? Giving everyone PPE as they get to a voting site? What do you want people to do?

Or is it just, if you're too scaredy cat to vote with Covid then stay home and accept the decision of those more courageous or foolish. What is your plan, if any?

Click here for your question...
Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

I have an ID and can prove of MY American Citizenship, so I vote the way this country intended voting to be held, by showing up and vote at the voting booths...
As for the other questions your asking, I don't watch CNN or MSNBC so I can't answer those..
Have a nice day...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

Click here for your question...
Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

I have an ID and can prove of MY American Citizenship, so I vote the way this country intended voting to be held, by showing up and vote at the voting booths...
As for the other questions your asking, I don't watch CNN or MSNBC so I can't answer those..
Have a nice day...

Okay! So now we know what you'd like to see as a result. What is your idea of a plan to implement it?

Consider:

The possibility that the virus will still be around in November, affecting and killing people who gather in groups.

Consider:

Not all current polling places in this country (or this state) are wheelchair accessible.

Consider:

Some polling places might be closed due to contamination or quarantine, in November, that were supposed to be open in November. That means people who would normally be voting at their usual place would need to find another place to vote. Some of those people rely on Florida's idea of "mass transit" to get to town centers and other central locations, and this might mean having to take the entire day off from work, just so they can get a bus, and a transfer, and another bus, and possibly an Uber from there, just so they can cast their vote. In short, it would be a hardship to certain members of the legally authorized population - and as a result, there would be fewer of these people voting.

Consider:
Some people aren't in the country when the vote is being held.

Consider:
Some people who are in the country, are not in the state of residence on Election Day.

What are your plans for all of these other considerations, to ensure that ALL people with the proper identity and citizenship have the same opportunity to vote, in person, presenting that proper identity?

[Rags123]

Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

Click here for your question...
Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

I have an ID and can prove of MY American Citizenship, so I vote the way this country intended voting to be held, by showing up and vote at the voting booths...
As for the other questions your asking, I don't watch CNN or MSNBC so I can't answer those..
Have a nice day...

I am curious as to exactly what your link has to do with FRAUD ?? Or impact on ANY election ???

Maybe you should try watching other view points...just a suggestion.

[GoodLife]

Okay! So now we know what you'd like to see as a result. What is your idea of a plan to implement it?

Consider:

The possibility that the virus will still be around in November, affecting and killing people who gather in groups.

Consider:

Not all current polling places in this country (or this state) are wheelchair accessible.

Consider:

Some polling places might be closed due to contamination or quarantine, in November, that were supposed to be open in November. That means people who would normally be voting at their usual place would need to find another place to vote. Some of those people rely on Florida's idea of "mass transit" to get to town centers and other central locations, and this might mean having to take the entire day off from work, just so they can get a bus, and a transfer, and another bus, and possibly an Uber from there, just so they can cast their vote. In short, it would be a hardship to certain members of the legally authorized population - and as a result, there would be fewer of these people voting.

Consider:
Some people aren't in the country when the vote is being held.

Consider:
Some people who are in the country, are not in the state of residence on Election Day.

What are your plans for all of these other considerations, to ensure that ALL people with the proper identity and citizenship have the same opportunity to vote, in person, presenting that proper identity?

Consider

We have a government here in Florida who are paid to handle these things and neither you or the poster you are replying to will have to worry about it.

[DianeM]

Consider

We have a government here in Florida who are paid to handle these things and neither you or the poster you are replying to will have to worry about it.

You are incredibly wise. Many, including me, fell into the spiders web. Great response.

[blueash]

Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

Click here for your question...
Calif. Begins Removing 5 Million Inactive Voters on Its Rolls | RealClearPolitics (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/06/20/calif_begins_removing_5_million_inactive_voters_on _its_rolls__140602.html)

I have an ID and can prove of MY American Citizenship, so I vote the way this country intended voting to be held, by showing up and vote at the voting booths...
As for the other questions your asking, I don't watch CNN or MSNBC so I can't answer those..
Have a nice day...

I'm having a nice day. Thank you. Your post which caused me to ask for proof made the claim, let me find it... "Judicial Watch found one million fraud mail in votes in California"

Here is what Judicial Watch found HERE (https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/california-and-los-angeles-county-to-remove-1-5-million-inactive-voters-from-voter-rolls-settle-judicial-watch-federal-lawsuit/)

What you have linked to here are reports that there were people who were registered to vote who could not be verified as living at the address listed. Apparently California had not purged its lists for 20 years. None of your links said anyone actually fraudulently voted and certainly none of them said that one million of them fraudulently cast mail in votes. That is what you claimed. You still have nothing to support that claim. All the links showed is that California had inactive voters still listed. It shows no evidence of in person nor by mail fraud. My oldest daughter was still listed at my home several years after marrying and moving and registering to vote at her new address. There was no fraud.

I know one other person (https://www.factcheck.org/2017/01/more-trump-deception-on-voter-fraud/) who made the same claim of one million fraudulent (https://www.factcheck.org/2019/06/trumps-new-twist-on-false-voter-fraud-claim/) mail in votes in California. Maybe that is where you heard it. That person was also wrong in their understanding of the findings. The Pew report also found over 2 million people were registered in two states. That doesn't mean they were voting in 2 states. It was reported that among those registered in two states were:
Jared Kushner, Steve Mnuchin, Steve Bannon, and Sean Spicer.

[Topspinmo]

That is political propaganda horsepucky. There are many states that provide mail-in ballots (including Florida), with very little actual fraud going on. The percentage of actual fraud (as opposed to assumed, alleged, accused, or supposed) is not even statistically significant.

With the singular exception of manipulation in North Carolina, during a single election, this just flat out isn't a "thing."

The only people who are fighting against it, are people who have a lot to lose if ALL citizens have better access to casting a vote. They are against it because they are afraid that if more people vote - more people will vote against them. And they would probably be correct.

But it's fear that keeps the votes out of peoples' hands, not fraud.

You opinion just like his.

[Number 10 GI]

If the country is still in the same situation as were are now, an election will be the least of our problems. Our economy will be in a shambles and deep into a depression.

[blueash]

I would agree. Nothing posted even close to voter fraud anywhere, thus what is the point of this discussion.

As the OP I might offer that the topic of this thread was not intended to be voter fraud. It was intended to be a discussion of what the state should do in preparation for the possibility that Covid might still be an issue in August or November. The example of the problems encountered in Wisconsin this week when voters were going to the polls in the midst of Covid was referenced. Several people then replied about how mail in votes were a risk to a fair election and it went a bit sideways.

I am still interested in thoughts on what might be in a good plan. No one has commented on increased voting locations, increasing hours per location, increasing the number of days for early voting, provision of PPE to voters or other options that might be considered. And I hope someone will have a clever, maybe off the wall idea to keep voters safe but still allow them to participate fully.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

As the OP I might offer that the topic of this thread was not intended to be voter fraud. It was intended to be a discussion of what the state should do in preparation for the possibility that Covid might still be an issue in August or November. The example of the problems encountered in Wisconsin this week when voters were going to the polls in the midst of Covid was referenced. Several people then replied about how mail in votes were a risk to a fair election and it went a bit sideways.

I am still interested in thoughts on what might be in a good plan. No one has commented on increased voting locations, increasing hours per location, increasing the number of days for early voting, provision of PPE to voters or other options that might be considered. And I hope someone will have a clever, maybe off the wall idea to keep voters safe but still allow them to participate fully.

A possible idea that I just made up out of the vast expanse of nothingness between my ears:

Anyone with a valid ID can go to any authorized location any time between now and Election Week (not day - the idea is to have a week), and acquire a punch card. The card would be uniquely coded to that individual person.

I don't know if non-drivers-license state IDs and "real" IDs have codes on the back, but Florida licenses do. Those folks would show up at any authorized polling place during Election Week, scan their ID, check off the punch card with their voting choices, and slide the card into a machine that will capture and lock the card.

No one gets to see these cards until the end of Voting Week, and the machine does not tally the cards until the Voting Commissioner pushes a button at the end of the week that says "go ahead and tally them." It doesn't keep a running tally, so as not to cause the media to say "this person's doing great, don't bother voting for that person."

No one gets to know who's winning and who's not winning until the Commissioner sees the results, minutes before the announcement.

If there's any dispute, the cards can be manually counted.

The only glitch to this, is for people who are snowbirds. Their licenses prove they live in Florida, but they live here only part time. They live somewhere else part-time. In which state do they vote? If their license is for Ohio, but they're in Florida in November, then their ID would not be recognized as valid for voting in Florida.

If Ohio has the same rules - no absentee votes allowed - then they wouldn't be allowed to vote at all.

And that brings me back to mail-in voting. It's a valid method of voting, it works in the states that have it, the possibility of fraud is minimal (which is already proven because it's been implemented and there's been minimal fraud). I'm also on board with electronic voting via the internet, though I'm less convinced that this wouldn't pose security issues.

[chet2020]

I vote by mail whenever possible. It's simply convenient. I have to submit my photo ID to get the ballot. They can track my request, the blank ballot to my house, my ballot back to them. Easy to audit.

[Klatu]

Extended days and hours for voting? Fine. Vote by mail? No way; it invites, even encourages, fraud. Want to see election results you cannot trust to be honest or reliable? Go to vote by mail.....

[Rags123]

Extended days and hours for voting? Fine. Vote by mail? No way; it invites, even encourages, fraud. Want to see election results you cannot trust to be honest or reliable? Go to vote by mail.....

Like when and where ? Claims unsubstantiated ever.

[Lindsyburnsy]

[QUOTE=tophcfa;1743289]Not voting in person raises serious fraudulent voting concerns.[

There is very little evidence of voter fraud. That’s a conservative talking point. Military have voted by mail for years and other states have voted by mail for years without a problem. If you want to vote in person, you should be given that option. I prefer mailing in My ballot.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Extended days and hours for voting? Fine. Vote by mail? No way; it invites, even encourages, fraud. Want to see election results you cannot trust to be honest or reliable? Go to vote by mail.....

Except this has already been proven false.

Florida has mail-in vote options, so do several other states. Past experience in this country with mail-in votes proves that there is minimal risk of mail-in fraud. How does it prove it? Because - there has been minimal mail-in fraud.

There was actually MORE fraud at the polls themselves, nationwide, than there has been via mail-in.

[golfing eagles]

Except this has already been proven false.

Florida has mail-in vote options, so do several other states. Past experience in this country with mail-in votes proves that there is minimal risk of mail-in fraud. How does it prove it? Because - there has been minimal mail-in fraud.

There was actually MORE fraud at the polls themselves, nationwide, than there has been via mail-in.


Even without a source, I'll bet you're right.

The problem as I see it is this:
In 1992 there was no internet fraud. There was limited use of the internet and limited commerce. The "fraudsters" were dumpster diving, phone soliciting, and door to door.
Now, you can't do anything but delete most e-mails. Why? The "fraudsters" moved on to greener pastures. When Willie Sutton was asked why he robs banks, his reply was "that's where the money is"
I'm afraid that if all voting migrates to mail, or internet, or interactive TV, the "fraudsters" will be out in droves. Just because they aren't here at the moment, just like the early internet, they very well may appear. Why? Because that's where the votes are.
Like the investment ad states----"past performance is no guarantee of future returns"

PS: Despite all this political BS, I still love you OBB, and you too, Blue.

[Cheapbas]

That is political propaganda horsepucky. There are many states that provide mail-in ballots (including Florida), with very little actual fraud going on. The percentage of actual fraud (as opposed to assumed, alleged, accused, or supposed) is not even statistically significant.

With the singular exception of manipulation in North Carolina, during a single election, this just flat out isn't a "thing."

The only people who are fighting against it, are people who have a lot to lose if ALL citizens have better access to casting a vote. They are against it because they are afraid that if more people vote - more people will vote against them. And they would probably be correct.

But it's fear that keeps the votes out of peoples' hands, not fraud.

Voter fraud will start to be promoted as we get closer to Nov. just like last time

[LadyPenO]

How quickly you get..... Remember those dead Democratic voters from the local cemeteries in the south?

[Bonnevie]

lol.....he was at Mar-A-Lago the weekend that early voting started--could easily have voted in person.

fraud?????? Oregon has been using mail in voting exclusively with no problems. Where are all the people who advocate back up paper ballots--you have them with mail in voting.

my recent mail in ballot I couldn't use because the envelope was already stuck together and I had no way of inserting my ballot without damaging the taper proof component. I had to go to the election office, turn that ballot in, and they had to re-issue it with a specific bar code. It's not a matter of just sending ballots out--they are accounted for....

and since Trump won Florida despite all us mail in voters--hard to say there was fraud.

[Windguy]

Not voting in person raises serious fraudulent voting concerns.

It works just fine in Colorado.

[Bonnevie]

frankly, I'm more concerned about hacking of at site voting than I am of mail fraud. with a paper ballot it can investigated. hacked computer records????

the Republicans forced people in Wisconsin to go out during a pandemic to vote at drastically reduced number of sites.

the use of the word "fraud" related to mail in voting is directly correlated to the foolishness spouted everyday by certain members of the administration and Fox News.

there was no "voting the way it was supposed to be". we used to have to vote with paper ballots, then machines with levers, then touch screen. Like everything else in our life, times change. How many people go inside a bank and deal with a teller?

actually, voting by mail takes us back to a time when a paper ballot is handy and available--something that can actually be checked for recounts, etc. seems to be less prone to fraud than computer hacking, etc.

[kenoc7]

Not voting in person raises serious fraudulent voting concerns.

Not true. Five states have voted by mail for a number of years with minimal proven voter fraud. Vote by mail or the internet is a necessity wit COVID-19.

[Windguy]

Judicial Watch found that their were over 1,000,000 fraud mail in votes just in California alone..

And, this is how they describe themselves: “Judicial Watch is an American conservative activist group.”

It’s not like they would be biased or have an agenda. Ha!

[biker1]

No, the President can't easily vote in person. There are substantial logistics and local disruptions wherever the President goes because of his security detail. You don't want him voting in person.

lol.....he was at Mar-A-Lago the weekend that early voting started--could easily have voted in person.

fraud?????? Oregon has been using mail in voting exclusively with no problems. Where are all the people who advocate back up paper ballots--you have them with mail in voting.

my recent mail in ballot I couldn't use because the envelope was already stuck together and I had no way of inserting my ballot without damaging the taper proof component. I had to go to the election office, turn that ballot in, and they had to re-issue it with a specific bar code. It's not a matter of just sending ballots out--they are accounted for....

and since Trump won Florida despite all us mail in voters--hard to say there was fraud.

[tunneystephen50@gmail.com]

Great----now we can have election fraud and those guilty don't even have to pay $0.49

As above, what is the evidence of fraud?

[Bonnevie]

there are substantial disruptions every time he goes to Mar-A-Lago.....from Palm Beach newspaper: In Palm Beach, Trump’s motorcade must drive several miles to reach Trump International Golf Club in West Palm Beach. Those near-daily trips to his golf club require additional security to secure the motorcade route, direct traffic and protect another venue.

so surely if he can spend that much money to play golf, he could have just as easily voted in person.
Absentee Ballots are a great way to vote for the many senior citizens, military, and others who can’t get to the polls on Election Day. These ballots are very different from 100% Mail-In Voting, which is “RIPE for FRAUD,” and shouldn’t be allowed!

— President Trump, on Twitter

so what's the difference between mailing an absentee ballot vs a mail in ballot???? as someone recently wrote sarcastically but truthfully: "An absentee ballot is placed in an envelope, whereas a mail-in vote is enclosed in an envelope. The difference in security should be obvious.

[biker1]

So let me get this straight, you are suggesting that the operation of the polling facility be disrupted and create inconvenience for regular citizens trying to vote? Yeah, that makes sense.

there are substantial disruptions every time he goes to Mar-A-Lago.....from Palm Beach newspaper: In Palm Beach, Trump’s motorcade must drive several miles to reach Trump International Golf Club in West Palm Beach. Those near-daily trips to his golf club require additional security to secure the motorcade route, direct traffic and protect another venue.

so surely if he can spend that much money to play golf, he could have just as easily voted in person.
Absentee Ballots are a great way to vote for the many senior citizens, military, and others who can’t get to the polls on Election Day. These ballots are very different from 100% Mail-In Voting, which is “RIPE for FRAUD,” and shouldn’t be allowed!

— President Trump, on Twitter

so what's the difference between mailing an absentee ballot vs a mail in ballot???? as someone recently wrote sarcastically but truthfully: "An absentee ballot is placed in an envelope, whereas a mail-in vote is enclosed in an envelope. The difference in security should be obvious.

[Hacker1]

We are Wisconsin residents, and we always vote absentee in elections held while we're in Florida. This recent election was no exception. In late March, we received a general email encouraging Wisconsin voters to request absentee ballots in order to avoid having to physically go to the polls during the Covid crisis. So I was (and am) disappointed to learn that so many who requested absentee ballots did not receive them. I suspect this is on the Postal Service, and now I wonder whether our ballots (which were mailed a couple of weeks prior to Nov 7) actually arrived; and I will try to find out.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Even without a source, I'll bet you're right.

The problem as I see it is this:
In 1992 there was no internet fraud. There was limited use of the internet and limited commerce. The "fraudsters" were dumpster diving, phone soliciting, and door to door.
Now, you can't do anything but delete most e-mails. Why? The "fraudsters" moved on to greener pastures. When Willie Sutton was asked why he robs banks, his reply was "that's where the money is"
I'm afraid that if all voting migrates to mail, or internet, or interactive TV, the "fraudsters" will be out in droves. Just because they aren't here at the moment, just like the early internet, they very well may appear. Why? Because that's where the votes are.
Like the investment ad states----"past performance is no guarantee of future returns"

PS: Despite all this political BS, I still love you OBB, and you too, Blue.

I don't think switching completely to internet votes or snail-mail votes is the answer. I feel both should be an option, in addition to in-person poll locations.

In some states that's already the case.

I'm actually against 100% internet-based voting for a few reasons.
1) accessibility. Not everyone has reliable internet. In some rural areas there is no internet at all.
2) security. Not everyone understands the importance of setting up firewalls and virus protection, and voting requires that you identify yourself uniquely. This presents a huge risk to those folks who don't properly set up their internet security. Identity theft should be the #1 concern - imagine someone taking over the voting rights of entire electoral college districts for the NEXT election after this one. No one will even know it was done, until they try to vote 4 years later.
3) a sense of "closure." This is more of a personal thing - I prefer doing things in person, because I can see for myself that my efforts got from point A (my hand) to point B (the ballot box.) It's why I prefer cash transactions and RARELY ever buy anything online. If I need money I go inside a bank and have them give me cash at the teller. I don't "do" ATMs.

[cherylncliff]

Florida already has vote by mail. If you are already registered, you can change to vote by mail online by going to your county Supervisor of elections web page. Do it NOW. If you are a resident of another state, check and see if they already allow vote by mail or absentee ballot. For those states that do not allow absentee, start writing your state and federal representatives and demand vote by mail.

[Rosie1950]

Consider

We have a government here in Florida who are paid to handle these things and neither you or the poster you are replying to will have to worry about it.

You are absolutely correct. I’m from CT. I worked years ago for the registrar if voters.
Around the country these registrars are going to be responsible for keeping their voting lists up to date. Now right now some states are having to bring in extra undertakers to help with the amount of dying people.
NY has over 7,000 deaths so the task will be daunting.
People get away with voting for dead Aunt Tiily then the registrar is not doing their job!
With the amount of soles that will be lost according to projections in a very short time (and people still die from other issues) the task is going to be daunting.

[blueash]

Please try not to tell people how to vote or this is going to be shut down. And this really is not about whether the president should vote in person or how often or where he, or Obama, golfs.

I ask that you try to stick to the topic of what should Florida do to make voting safe in a Covid restricted environment.
Please look at the letter sent by GOP and DEM county election supervisors making suggestions for what they believe needs to be done for the upcoming primary and general elections. It is on the Access Denied (https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article241809436.html) website:

It says they had issues with the recent primary election and anticipate more problems in August and November
It asks for expanded voting days and expanded hours and expanded locations
It asks for PPE
It asks for expanded but not 100% vote by mail
It asks for changes in when mailed votes can be counted.

It has lots of concerns and lots of questions.

[Matthew Wag]

My opinion, vote in person only unless Military. Proof of citizenship. To avoid getting kicked off again, certain parties have more people on voter rolls then people exist in certain states. Certain parties are criminals and can only cheat to get elected. Note I did not pick on a political party so the Sensors should not kick me off again!

[Joe V.]

LOL. Yahoo News. pfft.

[blueash]

My opinion, vote in person only unless Military. Proof of citizenship. To avoid getting kicked off again, certain parties have more people on voter rolls then people exist in certain states. Certain parties are criminals and can only cheat to get elected. Note I did not pick on a political party so the Sensors should not kick me off again!

"Certain parties" cannot in any state have people on voter rolls. Only the government itself can place, or remove, a person from the voter rolls. Your premise is wrong.

Parties and any registered group can provide forms to people to be filled in with information to allow them to register. It is illegal for anyone to force a non-voter to register. It is illegal for anyone to only accept forms from people who will register in a certain way. It is also illegal once a form collector is given a form for that collector to not turn it in to the government. You can read the rules (https://dos.myflorida.com/media/702504/de-guide-0012-third-party-voter-registration-organizations-20191201.pdf) if you care to learn the truth. Perhaps certain parties are less interested in truthful facts than others.

So if you hear of some, say Democratic, organization turns in a voter registration listing a name as Mickey Mouse, residence Disney World... if that is how the "voter" filled in the form the organization MUST turn it in. Then the government decides whether that is a legitimate registration and lists Mickey, or a non-legitimate and does not list Mickey.

Censors not sensors. Spell check won't help if you type a wrong word like that.

[Joe V.]

The governor is a democrat. Ironic, huh?

[blueash]

Here is part of the letter sent to the governor. I would oppose the suggestion to eliminate the requirement that each precinct have a polling place and allow the county to consolidate. People in TV are going to be rightly unhappy if Sumter Co. goes to a consolidated polling place in Sumterville. Keep in mind Milwaukee went from 180 places to 5. Chaos, hours in line, disease spread risk

[blueash]

The governor is a democrat. Ironic, huh?

I'm not sure of the post to which you are replying. Our governor in Florida is GOP. If you are replying about Wisconsin, yes he is DEM. But he ordered the election postponed and the vote by mail allowances expanded. It was the GOP which insisted the election be held on the original date with no expansion of vote by mail. So you really can't blame Wisconsin's governor for the election day problems. His mitigation attempts were blocked by the opposition. Ironic, huh?

What do you think our GOP governor should be ordering now to have our Florida elections in Aug and Nov not be plagued by the problems experienced in Wisconsin?

[Joe V.]

The person from WI complaining about the bad GOP with a dem governor in place.

[Joe V.]

I'm not sure of the post to which you are replying. Our governor in Florida is GOP. If you are replying about Wisconsin, yes he is DEM. But he ordered the election postponed and the vote by mail allowances expanded. It was the GOP which insisted the election be held on the original date with no expansion of vote by mail. So you really can't blame Wisconsin's governor for the election day problems. His mitigation attempts were blocked by the opposition. Ironic, huh?

What do you think our GOP governor should be ordering now to have our Florida elections in Aug and Nov not be plagued by the problems experienced in Wisconsin?

The person from WI complaining about the bad GOP with a dem governor in place.

[blueash]

The person from WI complaining about the bad GOP with a dem governor in place.

See how I added your posting to make it clear to whom I am responding? Use the "reply with quote button" to easily do it. You can even shorten the poster's message if it is too long, or you want to highlight with bold or color or font etc.

The person from WI complaining about the bad GOP with a dem governor in place.

Thank you for the clarification. Do you have any thoughts about what Florida should be doing to plan for possible problems in this state?

[MercerLunatic]

Your VoteByMail (VBM) ballot by mail ballot can't be hacked. It provides a Paper Trail and you can check your ballot's status online.
VBMballots are counted starting from 22 days before the election to noonthe day after the election.
Call the SUPERVISOR OF ELECTIONS or visit Sumter County Supervisor of Elections > Home (http://www.sumterelections.org)

[robsherry]

Way too much fraud voting by mail.

[rbrooks817]

Not voting in person raises serious fraudulent voting concerns.

Where is your proof, Trump himself had an investigation after the 2016 election and there was absolutely no proof of that ridiculous conspiracy theory. Total nonsense.

[brenda4jackson@comcast.ne]

Sorry, this is not true. Read about it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

LOL. Yahoo News. pfft.

Yahoo news is an aggregate website that collects articles from various sources. The one in the above link is from the New York Times.

[blueash]

Sorry, this is not true. Read about it.

Welcome Brenda, your first post. You might want to consider changing your screen name so that it is not your email. Additionally please use the reply with quote button if you are responding to someone else's thoughts. Otherwise people like me can't figure out the point you are trying to present. Again, welcome. Keep it civil if you can.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Joe V.
LOL. Yahoo News. pfft.

Yahoo news is an aggregate website that collects articles from various sources. The one in the above link is from the New York Times.

I'll beat Joe and save him the work..

LOL New York Times, pfft. :icon_wink:

[llmcdaniel]

Oh bs! In Oregon, we had to have picture ID and sign in our own hand writing our designated signature when we registered to vote. We had to sign the envelope which contained our ballot, and the two signatures were compared. If they differed, the ballot was discarded. Oregonians have voted this way for over 20 years, and there has NEVER been any fraud!!

[golfing eagles]

Oh bs! In Oregon, we had to have picture ID and sign in our own hand writing our designated signature when we registered to vote. We had to sign the envelope which contained our ballot, and the two signatures were compared. If they differed, the ballot was discarded. Oregonians have voted this way for over 20 years, and there has NEVER been any fraud!!

That you know of.....

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

That you know of.....

...which brings us back to the whole "statistically insignificant" thing. If voter fraud in those states had been statistically significant, it would've at least created a blip on the fraud radar. Since it didn't, you can conclude that any actual fraud that might have occurred, was statistically insignificant.

Since you can't prove a negative, you can rule out obvious positives.

[golfing eagles]

...which brings us back to the whole "statistically insignificant" thing. If voter fraud in those states had been statistically significant, it would've at least created a blip on the fraud radar. Since it didn't, you can conclude that any actual fraud that might have occurred, was statistically insignificant.

Since you can't prove a negative, you can rule out obvious positives.

Agree. I'm not concerned over the minimal impact of fraud to date, but much more concerned over what MIGHT happen

[Joe V.]

I'll beat Joe and save him the work..

LOL New York Times, pfft. :icon_wink:


The NY Times. I am still laughing.

[golfing eagles]

The NY Times. I am still laughing.

What? You think they're biased? :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Joe V.]

What? You think they're biased? :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:


Let me think ...................................... ah, yes.

[Bonnevie]

So let me get this straight, you are suggesting that the operation of the polling facility be disrupted and create inconvenience for regular citizens trying to vote? Yeah, that makes sense.

yes I am suggesting that. and I'll predict that in Nov. he who shall not be named will vote in person in Florida....as a photo op and reinforce the "fraud" storyline

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Agree. I'm not concerned over the minimal impact of fraud to date, but much more concerned over what MIGHT happen

What might happen can be somewhat predicted by what has already happened. Past precedence demonstrates that we can consider this - not a non-issue, but not even on the top 10 list of "things to be concerned about." There are states that already only do mail-in, and several states that combine it with in-person voting, and some states that do both of those plus internet voting.

The result of all three already-existing systems is - there is nothing happening that shows any statistical significance.

I'd be more concerned about what "might" happen if we forced everyone to show up at the polls while there's still the COVID-19 virus going around in November. Because past precedence shows that "death" and "hospitalization" and "spreading of the virus" IS absolutely positively statistically significant when people congregate in close quarters.

In addition, knowing that you have to risk death in order to vote is likely to scare off those who are most at risk. And those who are most at risk, also have the most to lose if we end up with certain governmental results from votes. They are the ones who need to vote, more than anyone else.

[blueash]

The NY Times. I am still laughing.

Thanks, I never saw that coming.

[edicito]

Wish you all would keep politics out of this platform. Some of you are already disrespecting others, it will turn ugly and you can’t help it.

[Northwoods]

Yeah, let's do this mail in ballot thing. Worked great in WI...
USPS investigating undelivered Wisconsin absentee ballot issues (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/04/10/usps-investigating-undelivered-wisconsin-absentee-ballot-issues/5135563002/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yeah, let's do this mail in ballot thing. Worked great in WI...
USPS investigating undelivered Wisconsin absentee ballot issues (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/04/10/usps-investigating-undelivered-wisconsin-absentee-ballot-issues/5135563002/)

This is EXACTLY why this thread exists. To discuss the planning, in advance, of alternatives to showing up at the polls during a worldwide pandemic.

The problems in Wisconsin are due to a pandemic that no one was able to account for, a request to delay the vote, the rejection of that delay, and the subsequent rush to accommodate more mail-in ballots than anyone would *otherwise* have expected.

It was a disaster from the get-go, because it was an exeptional circumstance.

In states where mail-in ballots are NOT an exceptional circumstance, it's efficient and practical.

Imagine if Wisconsin, and the post offices in Wisconsin, had time to prepare instead of being in a mad rush.

[martynpat]

And, of course, let's bunch the people together so they're easy to watch to make sure they don't cheat.

[Lindsyburnsy]

I'm more concerned about electronic voting machines that are hooked up to the internet. Talk about hijacking the voting system. That's a heck of a lot easier than running around from mailbox to mailbox to grab mail in votes. Someone in DC seems to think that only one party is going to cheat and it's not their's.

[Topspinmo]

I made a mistake. It happens. I only mentioned Oregon has having elections by mail. I failed to include
Washington state, Colorado, Utah, and Hawaii do the same. All by mail.
California does it in some counties including LA county
1/2 the counties of North Dakota are vote by mail

I am aware that one political party screams a lot about fraud. And there certainly is a potential for someone to hijack an envelope and fill in the form for the legitimate voter, then either forge a signature or compel the voter to sign the outside. Evidence please?

I only know of one example of significant potential fraud. It was in 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_North_Carolina%27s_9th_congressional_district _election) in North Carolina where operatives of the GOP did exactly that and an entire election was thrown out by the court.

The argument of potential fraud is important. The evidence of it being a problem is almost nil. In 2016, the last POTUS election, about 25% of all votes cast were by mail. Please find me reports of fraudulent mail in ballots. I don't deny it may happen. What I deny is that is must be happening and that mail in voting is inherently dangerous to democracy. All those states would disagree. They include states run by the GOP.

So all you nay-sayers.. you'd rather risk lots of exposure to Covid and a new major outbreak with a new economic shut down instead of planning an alternative approach to conducting our elections IF Covid is an ongoing problem in August and November?


Apparently Florida's county election supervisors most of whom are GOP also believe something needs to be planned. If you out of hand reject mail in ballots, and I trust none of you vote by mail, what if anything should the state be doing now to plan for the possibility of having Covid still here at the next election period?

” I made a mistake” NO!!!! You kidding right ? don’t tell that!

[blueash]

” I made a mistake” NO!!!! You kidding right ? don’t tell that!

Ok, what I should have written perhaps:

I got it right, it was perfect. What you thought you read is not what I wrote and you took it out of context and I didn't mean those words but other words which you should have known and I wasn't under oath.

Better? Nah, I'll just try to be honest and when needed, apologize. So what should Florida be doing, to get back on topic...

[blueash]

I just found this (https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/orders/2020/EO_20-97.pdf). An election was scheduled for local concerns on April 14th. DeSantis has postponed the election to be rescheduled at a to be determined time.

"Section 2. The municipal elections scheduled on April 14, 2020, for the cities of San
Antonio, Dade City, and Zephyrhills in Pasco County, are hereby delayed.

Section 3. Pursuant to section 101.733(2), Florida Statutes, upon consultation with the
Secretary of State, I will issue a subsequent Executive Order rescheduling the elections as soon as is practicable. "

[blueash]

Federal Data: 16.4M Mail-In Ballots Went Missing in 2016, 2018 Elections (https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/04/10/federal-data-16-4m-mail-in-ballots-went-missing-in-2016-2018-elections/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1PlJ_8X6nBxQaRH7Fgb8dlYeKw7eGRo-OXZTp76Zs45DifKxuPKQzfF8Q)

I do wish instead of just posting a link, you might explain why you believe the information is important.

In this Breitbart story the writer indicates that millions of vote by mail ballots do not get returned. Why is that a problem? Perhaps the person died or moved. See how those ballots were not fraudulently returned.. they were not returned at all.

Perhaps the voter chose to vote in person instead, perhaps they decided not to vote at all. There is no fraud in this story. In fact this is no different than pointing out how many people are listed in the registry at the in-person voting location who didn't bother to vote. Same reasons... died, moved, not interested, but add for in person - ill, car trouble, bad weather, line too long, had to work extra, had to suddenly go out of town, had to be with a grieving friend or a sick grandchild.

No fraud there either, but lots more people whose voice was silenced by the need to show up in person. I vote by mail because I anticipate the chance that something might happen to prevent me from voting in person and it is easier just like other tasks that can be done at home rather than in person. I'm still waiting from my check from George Soros whom the Breitbart author mentions.