New York State changes COVID-19 mortality reporting standards

[queasy27]

They will now be reporting (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-start-reporting-probable-coronavirus-deaths-cdc-n1184821) "probable" deaths, as opposed to only those that were confirmed through testing. The change caused their 24 hour death rate to increase from around 600-800 to several thousand yesterday.

It just points up again how wildly different the numbers can be and how little we actually know about rates of infections, recoveries, and deaths. More accurate information would go a long way to helping citizens feel more able to make realistic choices for their own health and that of others. The lack of test kits/defective kits, has had far-reaching consequences.

But then, annual estimates for flu deaths range from 20K to 60K, so maybe it's just to be expected with so many variables and reporting agencies.

[DianeM]

They will now be reporting (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-start-reporting-probable-coronavirus-deaths-cdc-n1184821) "probable" deaths, as opposed to only those that were confirmed through testing. The change caused their 24 hour death rate to increase from around 600-800 to several thousand yesterday.

It just points up again how wildly different the numbers can be and how little we actually know about rates of infections, recoveries, and deaths. More accurate information would go a long way to helping citizens feel more able to make realistic choices for their own health and that of others. The lack of test kits/defective kits, has had far-reaching consequences.

But then, annual estimates for flu deaths range from 20K to 60K, so maybe it's just to be expected with so many variables and reporting agencies.


Thank you. I said this on another forum earlier and they jumped on me like white on rice.

[blueash]

Thank you. I said this on another forum earlier and they jumped on me like white on rice.

No what you said on another thread was this

Originally Posted by DianeM
New York is marking anyone who dies as corona related death

But Queasy said

probable" deaths, as opposed to only those that were confirmed through testing


You said anyone who died is listed as corona, Queasy correctly says only those deaths where corona is a probable cause. Huge difference. That's why you got "jumped on"

NY, as I posted earlier and you choose to dismiss, is following the CDC's instructions for completing death certificates. In an environment where there are way too few COVID test kits available the question becomes, if a person dies with cough and pneumonia with disease symptoms consistent with COVID but they did not have a test done either because one was not available or they did not have an opportunity to be tested prior to their death, Should that death certificate indicated COVID as a contributing cause of death? A reasonable person would say, of course.

The CDC wants probable COVID related deaths to be reported. Tests are not being wasted on dead people. It is also well recognized that there are significant numbers of false negative tests in people who have the disease.

NY is not manipulating the data, they are conforming to what should be a national standard as articulated by the CDC. (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)

No agency is faking death records in NY.

Here are the applicable lines, read the whole document to increase your understanding

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely"

[DianeM]

No what you said on another thread was this



But Queasy said



You said anyone who died is listed as corona, Queasy correctly says only those deaths where corona is a probable cause. Huge difference. That's why you got "jumped on"

NY, as I posted earlier and you choose to dismiss, is following the CDC's instructions for completing death certificates. In an environment where there are way too few COVID test kits available the question becomes, if a person dies with cough and pneumonia with disease symptoms consistent with COVID but they did not have a test done either because one was not available or they did not have an opportunity to be tested prior to their death, Should that death certificate indicated COVID as a contributing cause of death? A reasonable person would say, of course.

The CDC wants probable COVID related deaths to be reported. Tests are not being wasted on dead people. It is also well recognized that there are significant numbers of false negative tests in people who have the disease.

NY is not manipulating the data, they are conforming to what should be a national standard as articulated by the CDC. (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)

No agency is faking death records in NY.

Here are the applicable lines, read the whole document to increase your understanding

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely"


I said what was transmitted to me by people actually living there and digesting local news.

Fredo has decided that 3700 people who died of say heart attacks will be categorized as covid death because, without being tested, they probably would have contracted it anyway. Great way to screw up actual results. Guess he gets a discount on body bags if it’s for a covid related death.

[Bay Kid]

Fear. The media loves to create fear. Who do you believe these days? Still more people died in their car yesterday. How about the numbers of babies killed yesterday?

[stan the man]

Did anyone die of the regular flu this year ????

[Koapaka]

And how do you explain the videos leaking out showing NYC hospitals with no one in line to be tested, actually not needing the temp military hospitals and ship, not needing the ventilators that the Gov was screaming for, etc etc. Candace Owens did a great job basically showing the average daily NYC deaths for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc have plummeted to record lows during this virus period which supports how they ARE inflating the Wuhan virus numbers. Nothing about this is making sense other than a method to destroy our economy prior to the elections.

Just a question to ponder, how many people would have died in that city of what 8 million or so depending how you count in the same timeframe? Subtract that number.

I think it comes down to money. ALL deaths where the victim had the virus in their system labeled as virus death. Government pays the costs for those patients (this also for those that live). As mentioned other deaths have plummeted. I believe the virus did not kill the patients, other causes did. But guaranteed payment if labeled virus. Not limited to NYC, but most pronounced there.

[fishon]

As always the criminal element is in charge in New York and has their hands out for more money than they deserve.
Absolutely a hive of scum and villainy.

[DianeM]

and how do you explain the videos leaking out showing nyc hospitals with no one in line to be tested, actually not needing the temp military hospitals and ship, not needing the ventilators that the gov was screaming for, etc etc. Candace owens did a great job basically showing the average daily nyc deaths for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc have plummeted to record lows during this virus period which supports how they are inflating the wuhan virus numbers. Nothing about this is making sense other than a method to destroy our economy prior to the elections.

Just a question to ponder, how many people would have died in that city of what 8 million or so depending how you count in the same timeframe? Subtract that number.

I think it comes down to money. All deaths where the victim had the virus in their system labeled as virus death. Government pays the costs for those patients (this also for those that live). As mentioned other deaths have plummeted. I believe the virus did not kill the patients, other causes did. But guaranteed payment if labeled virus. Not limited to nyc, but most pronounced there.

bingo !

[DianeM]

As always the criminal element is in charge in New York and has their hands out for more money than they deserve.
Absolutely a hive of scum and villainy.

Nailed it!

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Many deaths are reported by "clinical" decision making, which the doctor made a decision based upon the facts presented to him/her, not by a single test. My dad's death was reported as pneumonia, but he also had several bouts of cancer, and had untested tumors on his lungs, and had been losing weight recently. So, what really killed him?

Also, there are guidelines agreed to by states and the federal government, which do change based upon the situation, on how data is to be counted and presented. Currently, the federal government and the states recently came to the agreement or decision to report both confirmed and suspected cases. People who "assume" that a state is changing their methodology just on a whim, are making an incorrect assumption. You should really not get your "information" from main stream media (MSM), because of the bias in reporting involved. There are many healthcare reporting guidelines which come from agreements at levels which MSM doesn't have access, or they are too lazy to perform research while wanting to be the first to report, versus being the most correct and accurate. They know what gets people talking about their reporting. And if that reporting drives page visits and then subsequent advertising revenue. . . you are just being manipulated for revenue.

And yes, medical records do get audited from time to time, and there are standards reviews by governments and CMS. And I agree there is not a lot of other news or happenings to get people agitated, if that's what their preference is, but the reporting standards news is not something to get your underwear in a bunch about.

sportsguy with input from coachk

[DianeM]

Many deaths are reported by "clinical" decision making, which the doctor made a decision based upon the facts presented to him/her, not by a single test. My dad's death was reported as pneumonia, but he also had several bouts of cancer, and had untested tumors on his lungs, and had been losing weight recently. So, what really killed him?

Also, there are guidelines agreed to by states and the federal government, which do change based upon the situation, on how data is to be counted and presented. Currently, the federal government and the states recently came to the agreement or decision to report both confirmed and suspected cases. People who "assume" that a state is changing their methodology just on a whim, are making an incorrect assumption. You should really not get your "information" from main stream media (MSM), because of the bias in reporting involved. There are many healthcare reporting guidelines which come from agreements at levels which MSM doesn't have access, or they are too lazy to perform research while wanting to be the first to report, versus being the most correct and accurate. They know what gets people talking about their reporting. And if that reporting drives page visits and then subsequent advertising revenue. . . you are just being manipulated for revenue.

And yes, medical records do get audited from time to time, and there are standards reviews by governments and CMS. And I agree there is not a lot of other news or happenings to get people agitated, if that's what their preference is, but the reporting standards news is not something to get your underwear in a bunch about.

sportsguy with input from coachk

3700 deaths had their cause of death changed. 3700 in one day ! It was on several channels and news feeds. It’s a way for Cuomo to whine more for money when this is done. I also watched Cuomo’s broadcast where he said that while no covid tests were performed, someone who had a coronary would probably have caught Coronavirus anyway.

[chet2020]

The 3,700 deaths were reported in one day, but were a sum of deaths occurring on multiple previous days. The daily death rate in NYC is fairly consistent and predictable. The deaths during the COVID-19 outbreak, subtracting known C-19 deaths, was much higher than usual. The difference was logically attributed to C-19. There aren't enough tests to test dead people. The same phenomenon was noted in Italy and other countries.

The Fed government pays states or cities for C-19 deaths? News to me.

[roscoguy]

Fredo has decided that 3700 people who died of say heart attacks will be categorized as covid death because, without being tested, they probably would have contracted it anyway. Great way to screw up actual results. Guess he gets a discount on body bags if it’s for a covid related death.

Alright, I guess I have to be the one that asks: who is "Fredo"? You continuously claim that he has, apparantly unilaterally, decided which deaths have resulted from COVID-19. Not only is this extremely unlikely & prejudicial, it has been repeatedly pointed out that "probable" C-19 deaths are being reported according to established guidelines. As in here, for one example:

The CDC wants probable COVID related deaths to be reported. Tests are not being wasted on dead people. It is also well recognized that there are significant numbers of false negative tests in people who have the disease.

NY is not manipulating the data, they are conforming to what should be a national standard as articulated by the CDC. (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf)

No agency is faking death records in NY.

Here are the applicable lines, read the whole document to increase your understanding

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely"


Instead, you only accept as supposed evidence, stories told to you by a few NY'ers...

I said what was transmitted to me by people actually living there and digesting local news.

:ohdear:

[roscoguy]

The Fed government pays states or cities for C-19 deaths? News to me.

Is appears that the Feds actually are reimbursing "hospitals and health care providers for uncompensated care given to COVID-19 patients who do not have health insurance."

Government plans to pay hospitals for COVID-19 care for uninsured (https://www.rollcall.com/2020/04/03/government-plans-to-pay-hospitals-for-covid-19-care-for-uninsured/)

So, definitely not every death or hospitalization - only those for the uninsured.

[Chi-Town]

Alright, I guess I have to be the one that asks: who is "Fredo"? You continuously claim that he has, apparantly unilaterally, decided which deaths have resulted from COVID-19. Not only is this extremely unlikely & prejudicial, it has been repeatedly pointed out that "probable" C-19 deaths are being reported according to established guidelines. As in here, for one example:




Instead, you only accept as supposed evidence, stories told to you by a few NY'ers...



:ohdear:

Fredo is an Italian slur assigned to Chris Cuomo by people who tend to disparage anyone who they don't like. Usually denotes an epsilon outlook.

[blueash]

Is appears that the Feds actually are reimbursing "hospitals and health care providers for uncompensated care given to COVID-19 patients who do not have health insurance."

Government plans to pay hospitals for COVID-19 care for uninsured (https://www.rollcall.com/2020/04/03/government-plans-to-pay-hospitals-for-covid-19-care-for-uninsured/)

So, definitely not every death or hospitalization - only those for the uninsured.

Gee, why would the Federal government not pay for the hospitalization of those who have insurance... Why because those patients have insurance policies that pay for that care, duh. The Feds stepped in so hospitals would not face bankruptcy with the phenomenally high cost of intensive care for prolonged periods required of many of those hospitalized with COVID.

[I suppose we could provide universal health care or have some kind of law that said everyone needs to get insurance... ]

[blueash]

3700 deaths had their cause of death changed. 3700 in one day ! It was on several channels and news feeds. It’s a way for Cuomo to whine more for money when this is done. I also watched Cuomo’s broadcast where he said that while no covid tests were performed, someone who had a coronary would probably have caught Coronavirus anyway.

I'd love to see a link to any report saying that Cuomo, as you claim you watched, said "someone who had a coronary would probably have caught Coronavirus anyway".

Here are Governor Cuomo's words (https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/video-audio-photos-rush-transcript-amid-ongoing-covid-19-pandemic-governor-cuomo-issues-1) that I can find
The total losses, the total number of deaths number. The CDC changed guidelines on how they want information reported. They want deaths and then another category of probable deaths which is a new category that's done by the local departments of health or the coroner.

Sounds exactly like what I wrote earlier. The CDC wants probable COVID deaths included as determined by physicians and coroners. These are cases where the professional attests that COVID while not proven was a likely factor in the patient's death. Nothing about he might have caught it, nothing about maybe he was thinking about COVID crossing the street and didn't look up to see the truck that hit him. Nothing about he had a heart attack but had no probable COVID at the time.

The actually number re-classified was not 3700 but was 3778. I do know one source that used the erroneous 3700 number. Here is NBC's (https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/live-blog/2020-04-14-coronavirus-news-n1183181/ncrd1183936#liveBlogHeader) explanation on 4/15/20

The toll of COVID-19 has hit no city harder than New York, and official counts in the five boroughs might even be understated. While the city's health department listed the confirmed death toll at 6,589 by 1 p.m., the "probable" number of fatalities is at least 3,778 more — which would bring the staggering total to more than 10,000, according to data obtained by NBC News...
The department defines a "probable" victim as someone who had not tested positive, but whose death certificate lists that they were killed by COVID-19, the disease associated with coronavirus.

[blueash]

I found it. (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-claims-nyc-inflating-coronavirus-death-toll) I found where it was stated New York would classify someone with a heart attack as a COVID death. It wasn't Cuomo.

[roscoguy]

Fredo is an Italian slur assigned to Chris Cuomo by people who tend to disparage anyone who they don't like.

Thanks, now I get it.

Usually denotes an epsilon outlook.

Except, now I'm not sure what this means...

[roscoguy]

Gee, why would the Federal government not pay for the hospitalization of those who have insurance... Why because those patients have insurance policies that pay for that care, duh. The Feds stepped in so hospitals would not face bankruptcy with the phenomenally high cost of intensive care for prolonged periods required of many of those hospitalized with COVID.

[I suppose we could provide universal health care or have some kind of law that said everyone needs to get insurance... ]

:agree:Hey, I'm with ya' here! I was just responding to a question from chet2020, arising from Koapaka's post that claimed that "Government pays the costs for those patients...", implying that the Federal Government was paying the costs for ALL C-19 patients.

[blueash]

:agree:Hey, I'm with ya' here! I was just responding to a question from chet2020, arising from Koapaka's post that claimed that "Government pays the costs for those patients...", implying that the Federal Government was paying the costs for ALL C-19 patients.

Yes, we're good. I just wanted to explain why the gov't needs to cover the uninsured. As an aside, some private carriers (https://www.ahip.org/health-insurance-providers-respond-to-coronavirus-covid-19/) are waiving copays and/or deductibles for COVID care. You can see what each carrier is doing at that link.

[Chi-Town]

Thanks, now I get it.



Except, now I'm not sure what this means...

Epsilon is a Brave New World reference.

[roscoguy]

Epsilon is a Brave New World reference.

It's been way too long since I read BNW & I had to look it up. Great point!! :coolsmiley: