The Boundaries of Freedom

[B767drvr]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

[Aces4]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

[B767drvr]

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

Interesting, and hitting upon an important point! Bravo.

One man's health (in today's world) is being balanced upon another man's economic well-being, and in some cases... lest we forget... his very SURVIVAL.

Did anyone miss the 4-mile auto backup for (FREE) food assistance in San Antonio.

I believe it's important to remember that a HUGE number or of US citizens are living pay check to pay check, and can't easily absorb 8+ weeks without income. For many, this goes incredibly far beyond an inconvenience.

[DianeM]

As a child, I was taught by both my grandmother and my mother to “mind your business”. I think that applies to reporting people these days. Unless they’re pointing a gun in my direction, their actions and consequences are on their head.

I think it was ridiculous to shut down a country for this length of time. Be cautious yes, but live our lives.

As for the people, not dollars mindset .... well we need both. What good is being alive if you cannot take care of your family and pay bills. Eventually money and food will run out and anarchy will begin. I do not wish to live in the United States of Venezuela.

[graciegirl]

As a child, I was taught by both my grandmother and my mother to “mind your business”. I think that applies to reporting people these days. Unless they’re pointing a gun in my direction, their actions and consequences are on their head.

I think it was ridiculous to shut down a country for this length of time. Be cautious yes, but live our lives.

As for the people, not dollars mindset .... well we need both. What good is being alive if you cannot take care of your family and pay bills. Eventually money and food will run out and anarchy will begin. I do not wish to live in the United States of Venezuela.

What good is life without (fill in the blank)?

Pretty good. With life you have options...………………….I VOTE FOR LIFE. Yes, I have thought about it again...yes I do.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What good is life without (fill in the blank)?

Pretty good. With life you have options...………………….I VOTE FOR LIFE. Yes, I have thought about it again...yes I do.

I agree with gracie.

Therefore, our combined position is unassailable.

[Schaumburger]

As a child, I was taught by both my grandmother and my mother to “mind your business”. I think that applies to reporting people these days. Unless they’re pointing a gun in my direction, their actions and consequences are on their head.

I think it was ridiculous to shut down a country for this length of time. Be cautious yes, but live our lives.

As for the people, not dollars mindset .... well we need both. What good is being alive if you cannot take care of your family and pay bills. Eventually money and food will run out and anarchy will begin. I do not wish to live in the United States of Venezuela.

According to the statistics on the Johns Hopkins COVID-19 web site, currently the US has 722,000+ cases of COVID-19 and 33,900 deaths. That is with most of the country "shut down" for the past 3 to 5 weeks, depending on where one lives.

What if the governors had not placed any temporary restrictions on businesses, schools, houses of worship, entertainment venues, etc. since mid-March? Where would the number of cases and deaths be now? 10% higher, 20% higher, 30% higher?

Not enough people were "cautious" (i.e, the spring breakers partying on the beaches of Florida in March, people getting too close to one another on Chicago's lakefront a couple of weeks ago).

Until there is a vaccine developed, and by most reports I have heard that is at least 12 months away, "normal" is going to be different for a while.

Several years ago at my former job, I voiced my unhappiness to my former manager about a two week trip I was going to have to make to the company's headquarters in Houston. My manager's reply was "Laura, you're just going to have to suck it up and make the trip."

So as much as I want for things to return to normal tomorrow or next week, I know that's not going to happen; I am "sucking it up" for now.

I am grateful I have a job and an employer that has the technological capabilities to enable its office employees to work from home the past 5 weeks.

The sooner the numbers of new cases start declining, the sooner life can start to return to "normal", however you define normal life for yourself.

[coalminer]

Some people's narrow view reminds me of the old cigarette smokers logic " it's my body and my right" . No, not when your carelessness can I'll affect me. Grow up, buckle down and ride it out Buttercup

[DAN48]

I understand the increasing protests and frustrations of people. Some Governors have clearly taken orders to a level of arbitrary and illogical! It is important to remember mental and economic health is important too. When people are losing their savings, or worse, their ability to pay for rent and food, they will rebel.
We have to move quickly toward a more "moderate normal", but this places responsibilities on all of us. We will need to continue physical distancing and, perhaps, wearing masks for many months. But, that does not mean we cannot return the economy to a more active state. Work rules will have to be revised we will have to change our expectations and lifestyles to a degree.
I have a friend who raises 24,000 hogs per year. He delivers to a packer who has had no virus problems. They distance workers, have employee wear masks, and place plexiglass between employees when necessary.
I abhor government rules and want them removed as quickly as possible. But, that demands more responsibilty from each of us.
Lastly, we need to demand a more responsible media that reports well-researched stories without opinion. The need to fill 24 hours a day has completely destroyed journalism and filled the time with amateur opinion, sensationalism, and distortion.

[jswirs]

As a child, I was taught by both my grandmother and my mother to “mind your business”. I think that applies to reporting people these days. Unless they’re pointing a gun in my direction, their actions and consequences are on their head.

I think it was ridiculous to shut down a country for this length of time. Be cautious yes, but live our lives.

As for the people, not dollars mindset .... well we need both. What good is being alive if you cannot take care of your family and pay bills. Eventually money and food will run out and anarchy will begin. I do not wish to live in the United States of Venezuela.
I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

[allus70]

The virus has killed more than 1,800 Americans almost every day since April 7, and the official toll may be an undercount.

By comparison, heart disease typically kills 1,774 Americans a day, and cancer kills 1,641.

The virus in now spreading to the suburbs and rural areas.

[rustyp]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

It's my neighbors responsibility to stay in their lane driving their car on the other side of the road with exceptions of when it is safe to pass.

[David Fletcher]

Perhaps the real issue is not liberty or freedom, they are very different. The issue may be ”responsibility” and justice.

You can choose to act responsibly and above all remember the word is justice. Most think the word is just us.

If this does not wake up America to the need for universal health care then I don’t know what will.

If everybody has good universal health care ( single payer) the economy will be a lot stronger and everyone will win even the medical community.

[jaye_wolfe]

I value Independence as well as Freedom. These are two different concepts. So before I get involved with my neighbor’s life I ask myself would I want someone in my life the same way? If the answer is “No” I let it be and move on

[Bogie Shooter]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

Wow!

[Michael Charles]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

If you happen to die from this virus that would be very sad.

You or anyone else do not have a right to be out in public if infected and you most certainly do not have the right to infect me. That could possibly be considered a crime. At the very least, please wear a mask when you need to go shopping so you won't pass the virus to others once you get it.

I hope you stay safe and healthy.

[sdeikenberry]

While it's true my business stops at the end of my nose, it's also true that your business shouldn't impact mine. For example, cigarette smoking. Smokers infringe on my health, and that's the reason this country has smoking laws. Seems like a similar analogy to the question posed by the author of this thread.

[Heyitsrick]

What good is life without (fill in the blank)?

Pretty good. With life you have options...………………….I VOTE FOR LIFE. Yes, I have thought about it again...yes I do.

Oh, I can think of a multitude of scenarios where "life" in and of itself would not be considered tenable for most.

I'm going to assume that most everyone here worked for a living, and either had some kind of pension or other investments that afforded them the ability to move here after their working life.

Many - as in millions - of people are now unemployed and there's no guarantee that their erstwhile employers will even return, regardless of an SBA loan. The states are going to be broke and looking for the feds to bail them out. You can already hear governors screaming about that. Of course, the feds bailing out the states just means that federal income tax rates have to go up. If the federal government doesn't bail out the states, the states have to come to you to make up the shortfalls, or cut a lot of programs and services - laying people off in the process. And printing more money (like the Federal Reserve does) is only devaluing the money already in circulation. Your dollars are worth less.

There needs to be a balance between health concerns and economic vitality, even if that involves risk.

[stadry]

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

another thing - where is all this $$ coming from ? states like ny, il, ca, ma, ct, nj, pa - they're not the only 1's who are broke,,, so's the fed,,, why do think the usa sells bonds ? to BORROW MONEY, folks,,, which our grandchildren can pay back w/more worthless $$$
i think we are a very selfish generation

[Heyitsrick]

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

Who's going to tell the medical professionals that they can't make the money they do now? Who's going to tell the pharmaceutical companies that they can't make profits on the successful drugs they make?

[Bikeracer2009]

I don't see much benefit of the shutdown. I wear an N95 mask and rubber gloves when I go out to run errands. I went to Home depot 2 weeks ago in the villages and it was business as usual. People shopping without mask or gloves.

I just went to the super Walmart at the north end of the villages and it was packed. About half of the customers had masks on and fewer had gloves. I saw a newborn baby with her young parents without masks.

My point is, people are still going out in public ignoring social distancing and without wearing personal protective equipment and because fewer businesses are open they're packing into the ones that are open.

I suppose you could open up the economy and let the consumer decide how much they'll risk getting infected.

It looks to me that some people don't care or see a risk and some do. It's up to you to protect yourself.

As for myself, I see this virus as a new era in humanity. I'm surprised terrorists haven't seen this in the past as a way to attack us. It's very easy to weaponize this virus. The virus is easy to come by compared to bomb making materials and you can't detect it on people. This will change everything.

I'm betting this winter we'll see the virus come back with a vengeance and you can't shutdown the world for several months and not run out of food etc.

Gilead is testing a treatment that may be available soon and a vaccine should be available next year.

Protect yourself long enough to get to lower death rates is a good goal and let the risk takers choose their plan.

[Love2Swim]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

People have the right to die any way they like, but they don't have the right or freedom to endanger others with their lifestyle. My friend lives in NYC and she wrote this about people complaining about their "freedom": Silly stupid people. Get them out of the boonies and take them to NYC and give them a guided street tour of all the area hospitals with the refrigerated tractor trailers filled with dead bodies, followed by a boat ride to Hart Island where they can watch the backhoes dig long wide trenches and the stacking of wooden caskets for the mass burials.

[graciegirl]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

My opinion is that your opinion is extreme and not at all realistic. I don't think I believe in predestination. I am astonished by this reaction which seems to be gaining more and more momentum and makes me hate politics even more, although I have always thought of myself as very patriotic. I am just sad. Really sad. What it looks like to me is that older people are disposable. I do hope that this movement would be different if staying home saved beautiful young lives. I do so hope that would be true.

[hollywoodz]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?
I take issue with the use of your word "infringe", though your discussion of the topic is a worthy one. Before responding directly, I need to raise what one of Trump's economic advisors, Stephen Moore, said the other day about equating those on the right being put upon-perhaps in a way like the thrust of your discussion topic- just like Rosa Parks did in her day. That comparison was lunacy, since Ms. Parks was advancing racial equality which, if it did not come about, would not infect and kill others of whatever description. If she had the virus and did not take precautions, then the comparison would be the same to those gun-toting individuals we saw at state capitals in Michigan, Virginia and Minnesota last week. But to respond to your inquiry, we are ALL interdependent upon one another as Americans, regardless of political stripe or viewpoint, color or creed. When we are battling a deadly silent and invisible enemy, we must all draw together to fight it so that we all survive, sans those thousands that have incredulously perished through no fault of their own. If I can draw upon an apt comparison: what this nation had to do to fight Hitler in WWII. Didn't we have to make sacrifices at home to help fight the war and supply our soldiers with what they needed, like ammo, equipment, clothing, and artillery? Are fines required if a government tells us to wear masks and we don't; if a government tells us not to have more than 10 congregate together but do? Yes, since our freedoms, here, are dependent upon us taking heed of what to do to stop this invisible killer; if not, then having a government edict means nothing and those that want to violate them are not only being foolish to themselves, but also seeding the continued spread of the virus among those that are lawfully abiding citizens. To put it more plainly, if we run a red light or stop sign, why should we have to be a fine for a traffic violation?

[graciegirl]

People have the right to die any way they like, but they don't have the right or freedom to endanger others with their lifestyle. My friend lives in NYC and she wrote this about people complaining about their "freedom": Silly stupid people. Get them out of the boonies and take them to NYC and give them a guided street tour of all the area hospitals with the refrigerated tractor trailers filled with dead bodies, followed by a boat ride to Hart Island where they can watch the backhoes dig long wide trenches and the stacking of wooden caskets for the mass burials.

My post took this wonderful post out of view. I do so agree.

[graciegirl]

I take issue with the use of your word "infringe", though your discussion of the topic is a worthy one. Before responding directly, I need to raise what one of Trump's economic advisors, Stephen Moore, said the other day about equating those on the right being put upon-perhaps in a way like the thrust of your discussion topic- just like Rosa Parks did in her day. That comparison was lunacy, since Ms. Parks was advancing racial equality which, if it did not come about, would not infect and kill others of whatever description. If she had the virus and did not take precautions, then the comparison would be the same to those gun-toting individuals we saw at state capitals in Michigan, Virginia and Minnesota last week. But to respond to your inquiry, we are ALL interdependent upon one another as Americans, regardless of political stripe or viewpoint, color or creed. When we are battling a deadly silent and invisible enemy, we must all draw together to fight it so that we all survive, sans those thousands that have incredulously perished through no fault of their own. If I can draw upon an apt comparison: what this nation had to do to fight Hitler in WWII. Didn't we have to make sacrifices at home to help fight the war and supply our soldiers with what they needed, like ammo, equipment, clothing, and artillery? Are fines required if a government tells us to wear masks and we don't; if a government tells us not to have more than 10 congregate together but do? Yes, since our freedoms, here, are dependent upon us taking heed of what to do to stop this invisible killer; if not, then having a government edict means nothing and those that want to violate them are not only being foolish to themselves, but also seeding the continued spread of the virus among those that are lawfully abiding citizens. To put it more plainly, if we run a red light or stop sign, why should we have to be a fine for a traffic violation?

Another articulate and thoughtful post that I so agree with.

[Nevinmann]

Hunter Thompson is the author of the quip you use as a signature addendum. It would be nice to give him credit.

[Plants]

And spread it to everyone else? Thanks

[rlcooper70]

Your questions are direct and complicated. You are asking "what is a moral decision?" and how does one make it? The 16th through 18th century philosophers discussed just this .. is it by looking at "greatest good for the greatest number" or is it "if everyone acted in this manner would society be better or worse" or is it Hobbes' contention that the leader (sovereign) has the right to dictate over the affairs of all the citizens?

There are many ways to look at this ... and although your questions are valid .... are they actually the right questions?

[rlcooper70]

I think that post was meant to be offensive .... it reflects on the writer and only the writer.

[hollywoodz]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

This person saying (s)he would rather die from the virus but live free. I will be polite here, but is this individual all together with it? I would rather take logical precautions guided by government edicts to preserve my life from a silent, deadly killer than have another be so irresponsible (by "living free") that jeopardizes my health, safety and well-being. That is why I figuratively vomited when I saw those in Michgan, Virginia and Minnesota brandishing their guns when protesting their governors' stay-at-home orders. If such individuals want to protest that way, may they all become infected, maybe die? But don't tread on me!

[Windguy]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be: “Is it OK for my indifference, carelessness, or selfishness to endanger someone else?”

Do you think that stop signs infringe on your freedom and that it’s OK to run them? Isn’t running a stop sign and causing an accident that takes someone’s life similar to coughing and spraying someone with your C-19 germs? In the case of the stop sign, you could be charged with manslaughter. By trying to maintain your regular activities and ignoring the guidance to cover your face to stop your germs from being sprayed on others, your are being reckless and are endangering others’ lives. You might not be convicted of reckless endangerment, but if someone dies because of your selfishness you HAVE committed manslaughter and are just as guilty as someone who ignores stop signs.

[Aloha1]

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

Money to feed your family or starvation?

[EviesGP]

Just hoping we get behind this, and our country heals.

However, I also think there's going to be some serious litigation on this topic, in the aftermath. Specifically, the enforcement(fines, arrests, etc). Legislatures create laws, and the executive branch executes and enforces them. Not sure how the courts will view the fines and/or arrests of individuals for not complying with edicts(vs a law/ordinance)? As for the Michigan issue, I think the governor went a bit too far, in deciding what stores could operate and sell? Telling one store they had to close, because their product wasn't essential, but Wal-marts all remain open, and are not restricted in what they sell(which is much of the same product)?! Again, hoping we just come out this whole again.
Cheers!

[Bill1701]

Most of us in The Villages are retired and aren't working so we have a different perspective from those in the real world. While I understand your fear and why you think everyone should stay home, would you feel the same way if you weren't getting your pension or social security check every month? What about if you had already exhausted your savings? Do you really think all the food production people in this country should stay home? What about delivery people?
That fact is, the vast majority of people around the world have to get out and make a living. Yes, many can wear masks while they work but many cannot. Don't they deserve to live just as much as you do? The majority of deaths and serious illnesses from the virus are people over 70. Those people, for the most part, can stay home and try to be safe. The rest of the population needs to balance the need for income with the need for safety, but sooner rather than later they will need to return to work.

[Twiganne]

Notice how the two states, CA and NY, are squealing for a bailout. Hmmm. Sounds like the governors are not managing their budgets very well. NY and CA have the highest taxes yet have spent it all on ridiculous projects or sanctuary cities. Why should be bail them out when they squandered all of the money in taxes. Seems to me if the federal government bails them out it will never create an incentive for them to manage their budgets responsibility.

[Twiganne]

Well said

[600th Photo Sq]

[QUOTE=B767drvr;1748971]A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?[/QUOTE

Your question and comments are ridiculous. The health care profession is what it is taking care of the sick, injured, those in need of hospital care.

They had no idea that this virus was going to happen any more than a person joining the military and find out months later, he/she going to war. It is what it is, dealing with the unexpected.

The Military for example is hit very hard with corona virus, the overseas rotations are on hold pretty much for the foreseeable future. Coming home from an overseas assignment after 2-3 year tour with or without dependents, on hold.

Emergency leave, and those leaving the military are the only exceptions.

Look at the epidemic of 1918 over 100 years ago they didn't have todays medical knowledge, 20,000 people died in Philadelphia alone. People lived in real fear they had no idea what was happening. Compare that with today.

People were expected to live under the very same restrictions that are in place today, yes including wearing a mask in public.

[Twiganne]

That governor in Michigan is bat crazy (no pun intended). She says it is fine to out on the water in a canoe but not a motorboat. How does that make sense. I am glad I live in Fl where we have a partial common sense approach to this problem.

[Topspinmo]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?


Yes, they took and oath-and they signed up for career with excellent pay and opportunities. Like all professions you take the good with the bad. Yes, it tough times and they are earning their pay. I compare it to the typical soldier, it’s great when you NOT getting shot at. But, when first time somebody praised them when they get killed. Some ____ says they knew what they was getting into.

[dougjb]

It seems to me that in the conditions we live in now, we must all sacrifice a bit for the common good.

In my life, I have never been subject to something as nasty as COVID-19. Whole countries and cities do not close down for the heck of it. But, they are. I am a great reader of history. Rarely has anything of this magnitude in human history occured. Perhaps the closest were the several wave of the Black Plague in the Middle Ages. People had the same arguments that many of you have expressed here. There were those who wanted to close down everything until the plague passed. There were those who said no way, I want to go about my business. History does not tell us who was right except in a few instances where cities that closed down better survived the plague.

It also seems to me that we have lost our ability to care about our fellow humans. I am too young to have lived through WWII. But, from what I gather many goods were rationed for the war effort. Each made a sacrifice for the common good. Have we lost that ability?

One other thought: We all comply with rules meant for the common good. If we did not and only cared about making a buck, then why should I wait for a red light in traffic. Why don't I just charge across the road to get to my business; the hell with everyone else. Why do I stay in my own lane? I want my freedom. Why should I care about anyone else's safety? I am sorry but we elect leaders to lead us. It is not just about me. It is about us. If you do not like the constraints imposed upon us by our leaders, then just vote them out. But, they are our leaders and they are charged with making decisions for the common good. Have we lost our ability to comply with rules? License is not what we should seek. We should seek some rules that keep our lanes in life clear. And being able to run about spreading a disease that we may or may not have is like running red lights because we really do not care a whit about others.

Can't we just please take a deep breath, watch another episode of Leave it to Beaver, knowing that the restrictions will be lifted when it is appropriate that be lifted. Perhaps that time will be when we can all be tested?

[Topspinmo]

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important...
one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?


What happen when there aren’t no dollars. Man against man and the strongest survives. If we go another month or two thing are going to get really bad IMO. the scales are tipping.

[HelenLCSW]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?




In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?


Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

This is not really about you being responsible for neighbor safety — it’s about stopping a pandemic from spreading. If your loved ones neighbors don’t know they have it and they don’t follow the guidelines the virus continues to spread and Eventually your loved ones will get the virus. That’s how plagues work.
It’s not about responsibility for neighbors—and what about the health care workers who have to take care of the neighbors you don’t care about —do you care nothing about the sacrifices they are making to take care of your neighbors?

[Topspinmo]

It seems to me that in the conditions we live in now, we must all sacrifice a bit for the common good.

In my life, I have never been subject to something as nasty as COVID-19. Whole countries and cities do not close down for the heck of it. But, they are. I am a great reader of history. Rarely has anything of this magnitude in human history occured. Perhaps the closest were the several wave of the Black Plague in the Middle Ages. People had the same arguments that many of you have expressed here. There were those who wanted to close down everything until the plague passed. There were those who said no way, I want to go about my business. History does not tell us who was right except in a few instances where cities that closed down better survived the plague.

It also seems to me that we have lost our ability to care about our fellow humans. I am too young to have lived through WWII. But, from what I gather many goods were rationed for the war effort. Each made a sacrifice for the common good. Have we lost that ability?

One other thought: We all comply with rules meant for the common good. If we did not and only cared about making a buck, then why should I wait for a red light in traffic. Why don't I just charge across the road to get to my business; the hell with everyone else. Why do I stay in my own lane? I want my freedom. Why should I care about anyone else's safety? I am sorry but we elect leaders to lead us. It is not just about me. It is about us. If you do not like the constraints imposed upon us by our leaders, then just vote them out. But, they are our leaders and they are charged with making decisions for the common good. Have we lost our ability to comply with rules? License is not what we should seek. We should seek some rules that keep our lanes in life clear. And being able to run about spreading a disease that we may or may not have is like running red lights because we really do not care a whit about others.

Can't we just please take a deep breath, watch another episode of Leave it to Beaver, knowing that the restrictions will be lifted when it is appropriate that be lifted. Perhaps that time will be when we can all be tested?

You do realize it’s not about our little bubble. People that make the world go around are suffering. When they suffer we WILL eventually suffer. I go out on limb here and say 98% in villages have never been hungry and I don’t mean missing lunch or supper either

[ColdNoMore]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

Wow!

DOUBLE DITTO. :ohdear:

[Drdoug49]

Most TV residents can’t manage their own lives, over 70% are overweight and their added healthcare costs are born by the rest of us. We need government to set the rules, it’s called living in a civilized society, otherwise people left to their own devices just dig their graves with a knife and fork as proven by the high rate of obesity by residents here. By the way I walk the walk, BMI of 23 and weigh the same now 170lbs at 6ft 1 as I did when I graduated from college in 71. Get outa the golf cart and start walking

[davem4616]

Perhaps the real issue is not liberty or freedom, they are very different. The issue may be ”responsibility” and justice.

You can choose to act responsibly and above all remember the word is justice. Most think the word is just us.

If this does not wake up America to the need for universal health care then I don’t know what will.

If everybody has good universal health care ( single payer) the economy will be a lot stronger and everyone will win even the medical community.



oh quit with the Universal Healthcare BS....England and Canada have it and it didn't stop the spread of/deaths from covid-19 in those countries

[PugMom]

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

another thing - where is all this $$ coming from ? states like ny, il, ca, ma, ct, nj, pa - they're not the only 1's who are broke,,, so's the fed,,, why do think the usa sells bonds ? to BORROW MONEY, folks,,, which our grandchildren can pay back w/more worthless $$$
i think we are a very selfish generation
it's true! speak to someone from a country with single payer & they can tell you they were happy to get out of a socialist 'paradise' with whatever cash in pocket & clothes on their backs. talk to my hubby, he came from a socialist nation & would NEVER go back--same reason we left Connecticut to head straight here: we didnt even see the place personally, just pics, & that was good enuf for us. we sold the house, got cash $$, packed the dogs in the car & here we are,..lovin' the lifestyle,. oxo

[JodyBraga]

Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?[/QUOTE]

We (healthcare workers) do this daily. We “fix” (or at least “patch up”) those that are non compliant with medications and diet, those that smoke, those that are alcoholics, those that are substance abusers...and the list goes on and on. We get them well enough to leave the hospitals and rehabs only so that they can begin the cycle all over again!
As the saying goes, we can’t fix stupid. It’s up to the individual to use the information provided to stay healthy!
And we can’t fix dead.

[VillageLiberal]

Most people I've met, and most stories I've read, people on single payer health care are happy with thier system, and oh by the way, they still pay for thier health care only the money goes to thier government rather than a for profit company. It's kinda like the socialist Social Security and socialist Medicare, which I'm almost certain by your post that you've refused to take money or services from because you know socialism and all.

[Tsego58]

Most veterans fought for the freedom we have. We were trained for all types of warfare to include biological. There were standards we had to measure and meet to neutralize the situations. Forget about your selfish bs and do what we had to do and deal with it maybe when you get through all of it you will understand the real meaning of freedom.

[Windguy]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?
Let me pose a thought experiment for you.

Suppose your best friend has asthma or COPD and has been pretty religious about staying away from people and staying safe because people with lung disease are the most likely to die from the disease. But, you're bored and miss your friend, so you call and ask if you can come over. Your friend says that it wouldn't be a good idea, but you keep pushing and your friend finally relents. You come over and you have a few drinks, laugh a lot and have a great time. Your friend goes back to the solitary life, but the next day you start noticing the C-19 symptoms. But, you're healthy and although you feel poorly you get over it. Your friend comes down with it a week or two later and eventually dies in the hospital due to lung failure.

Tell me. Do you feel sorry for your best friend, who had just retired and was finally getting to live the good life and for all the others who lost someone they cared a lot about? Could you live with yourself for being so selfish and being directly responsible for your friend's death?

Or, would you just be bummed because you no longer have a best friend and you're lonely now? My guess is that the latter is the case because you come across as the kind of person who thinks only of yourself.

[VillageLiberal]

Let me pose a thought experiment for you.

Suppose your best friend has asthma or COPD and has been pretty religious about staying away from people and staying safe because people with lung disease are the most likely to die from the disease. But, you're bored and miss your friend, so you call and ask if you can come over. Your friend says that it wouldn't be a good idea, but you keep pushing and your friend finally relents. You come over and you have a few drinks, laugh a lot and have a great time. Your friend goes back to the solitary life, but the next day you start noticing the C-19 symptoms. But, you're healthy and although you feel poorly you get over it. Your friend comes down with it a week or two later and eventually dies in the hospital due to lung failure.

Tell me. Do you feel sorry for your best friend, who had just retired and was finally getting to live the good life and for all the others who lost someone they cared a lot about? Could you live with yourself for being so selfish and being directly responsible for your friend's death?

Or, would you just be bummed because you no longer have a best friend and you're lonely now? My guess is that the latter is the case because you come across as the kind of person who thinks only of yourself.

Great point, I feel like there are people that only care about themselves. I have a friend who is deathly allergic to nuts, walnuts will kill him. So we make dietary adjustments so as not to kill my friend. However, I feel there are people who'd be like screw your allergies here eat this walnut muffin I made just for you!

[NJRICHARD]

The pools provide exercise for people unable to run or walk. I for one have lower back issues. The only exercise that keeps the pain away is swimming laps/walking in the pool. Now that the snow-birds are gone OPEN UP THE POOLS. The volley ball, sports activities will have to wait. BUT the pools are not crowded this time of the year and those who want to sun bathe can alternate lounge chairs.

I see the beautiful golf courses CLOSED at 4:00...WHY, everything else is closed why not keep the only activity that is going strong open longer...maybe till 7:00pm. I went out on a course at 4:30, alone. It was as beautiful as ever, weather, sun going down, EMPTY! At the 6th hole the AMBASSADOR started YELLING at me. She told me there is a VIRUS going around....WOW!, didn't realize it!! She told me to immediately pick up my golf balls (2) AND NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!! I felt like I had to stand in the corner for an hour. Last time I looked we still pay our HOA FEE? IF, they reduce most of the activities in one area, why not increase them (GOLF) in another to off set it??

[kanoa1kale2]

The virus has killed more than 1,800 Americans almost every day since April 7, and the official toll may be an undercount.

By comparison, heart disease typically kills 1,774 Americans a day, and cancer kills 1,641.

The virus in now spreading to the suburbs and rural areas.

In 2018, according to the CDC, the country had 45,000,000 infected with flu and lost 61,000 people that year. We did NOT have the panic we are experiencing now.

[VillageLiberal]

The pools provide exercise for people unable to run or walk. I for one have lower back issues. The only exercise that keeps the pain away is swimming laps/walking in the pool. Now that the snow-birds are gone OPEN UP THE POOLS. The volley ball, sports activities will have to wait. BUT the pools are not crowded this time of the year and those who want to sun bathe can alternate lounge chairs.

I see the beautiful golf courses CLOSED at 4:00...WHY, everything else is closed why not keep the only activity that is going strong open longer...maybe till 7:00pm. I went out on a course at 4:30, alone. It was as beautiful as ever, weather, sun going down, EMPTY! At the 6th hole the AMBASSADOR started YELLING at me. She told me there is a VIRUS going around....WOW!, didn't realize it!! She told me to immediately pick up my golf balls (2) AND NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!! I felt like I had to stand in the corner for an hour. Last time I looked we still pay our HOA FEE? IF, they reduce most of the activities in one area, why not increase them (GOLF) in another to off set it??

Actually not read anything related to the virus and pools. Clearly you can't swim with a mask on. I wonder if the pool water would kill the virus? If an infected person's mucus was in the water and you ingested it would you get sick? I know they close the pools when people accidentally poop in the pool but that may be because you know... 💩. You can see it and all. At this point I think I'd take my chances with poop over the virus, not sure ingesting someone else's poop will kill you. Hang in there, life will get back together soon.

[merrymini]

Heart disease and cancer kill every day of the year. This virus does not, so your numbers are deceiving and there are many viruses like the common flu which takes many more lives and no one blinks twice!

[Windguy]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?
The answer is a definite NO. It is not your responsibility to keep someone else safe. However, it is your responsibility to avoid doing things that endanger others. By spraying C-19 germs around, your are endangering others.

Let's look at a couple of related moral examples.

Suppose you are rushing down the sidewalk so you don't miss the bus to work. You see a child start to chase a ball into the street just as a car is coming. Is it your responsibility to stop that child from running into the street even though you might be late for the bus? I wouldn't think it was my responsibility, but it would be the moral thing to do. Maybe you would think that it's just fate and that life isn't fair. The kid just won the Darwin award. How would you feel if a stranger let your child die because it wasn't their responsibility? Bitter?

Suppose you are rushing to the train station in your car and were worried that you might miss the train. Now, suppose a child chases a ball into the street. Is it your responsibility to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting the child? Or, is it infringing on your rights to get to the station on time because stopping to avoid killing the child might make you miss the train?

[TNLAKEPANDA]

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

Easy to say when you are retired. But if you are the only one in the family working and you have to feed your family it very scary to say the least. It’s not about The Almighty Dollar bud. Most people can’t go for even two weeks without income! Sad but still true. You need to think a little deeper.

[Fredster]

Most TV residents can’t manage their own lives, over 70% are overweight and their added healthcare costs are born by the rest of us. We need government to set the rules, it’s called living in a civilized society, otherwise people left to their own devices just dig their graves with a knife and fork as proven by the high rate of obesity by residents here. By the way I walk the walk, BMI of 23 and weigh the same now 170lbs at 6ft 1 as I did when I graduated from college in 71. Get outa the golf cart and start walking

What to me is a really scary thought, that there were a lot of people
like you who have little or no faith in individuals capacity to take care of themselves,
involved in an overreaching controlling government.

[VillageLiberal]

The answer is a definite NO. It is not your responsibility to keep someone else safe. However, it is your responsibility to avoid doing things that endanger others. By spraying C-19 germs around, your are endangering others.

Let's look at a couple of related moral examples.

Suppose you are rushing down the sidewalk so you don't miss the bus to work. You see a child start to chase a ball into the street just as a car is coming. Is it your responsibility to stop that child from running into the street even though you might be late for the bus? I wouldn't think it was my responsibility, but it would be the moral thing to do. Maybe you would think that it's just fate and that life isn't fair. The kid just won the Darwin award. How would you feel if a stranger let your child die because it wasn't their responsibility? Bitter?

Suppose you are rushing to the train station in your car and were worried that you might miss the train. Now, suppose a child chases a ball into the street. Is it your responsibility to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting the child? Or, is it infringing on your rights to get to the station on time because stopping to avoid killing the child might make you miss the train?

Great post! Unfortunately since the younger folks tend not to die from the Coronavirus, AKA "Chinese Virus", thier attitude seems to be "screw you boomer, I'm going to the beach, sucks to be you". I believe in karma.

[Grill Meister]

I understand the frustrations that we all share and I understand that in our current situation our life style will and have to change drastically. I know that it hurts to have such a negative impact on ones economy and income. Fortunately, I am not impacted by the economic downturn and so many businesses have to shut their doors and deprive themselves and their employees of income. I also personally feel that I would rather suffer through this situation than to have someone infect the ones I love. I just could not live with that. All that being said, please let me put the situation in a different perspective, which I hope will ameliorate the suffering, pain and frustration:

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE........
1. There are no bombs raining on our heads
2. I am not a prisoner held in solitary confinement, as millions are.
3. I am not a refugee trying to escape with my life.
4. I am not standing in line waiting to fill a pot of water.
5. I have access to fresh food and I'm not starving.
6. I have hot running water.
7. My country has not been ruined by years of war.
8. I can reach my friends by phone and check in on them.
9. My friends check in on me because they care about me.
10. Any whiplash I feel about this strange turn of events is itself a sign of privilege.
11. More than half of the world would gladly trade their everyday problems for the modest inconveniences I am experiencing.
12. I may have anxious dreams but I'm dreaming them on a proper bed and I'm not sleeping on the sidewalk.
13. By staying at home, I'm helping the planet rest.
14. As long as I have my mind I can create, imagine, dream and not be lonely.
15. This global crisis connects me to people around the world and reminds me of our common humanity. This is a good thing.
16. When something tragic happens to another country next time, I will respond to it not with superiority, but humility and recognition. 17. I will fight for positive changes and economically just policies in my own country.
18. I am surrounded by books.
19. I am surrounded by love.
20. The tulips have already begun to bloom.

[GoPacers]

I see the beautiful golf courses CLOSED at 4:00...WHY, everything else is closed why not keep the only activity that is going strong open longer...maybe till 7:00pm. I went out on a course at 4:30, alone. It was as beautiful as ever, weather, sun going down, EMPTY! At the 6th hole the AMBASSADOR started YELLING at me. She told me there is a VIRUS going around....WOW!, didn't realize it!! She told me to immediately pick up my golf balls (2) AND NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!! I felt like I had to stand in the corner for an hour. Last time I looked we still pay our HOA FEE? IF, they reduce most of the activities in one area, why not increase them (GOLF) in another to off set it??

So, you knowingly broke the rules because YOU decided it was OK for YOU to do so...

Then, you call out the ambassador who is only trying to do their job? And we wonder why activities are closed or restricted because "some people" can't follow the rules???

[MandoMan]

When Shakespeare was writing plays and a part owner of the Globe Theatre across the Thames River from London, several times when there was a plague raging in London in the summer, the City Aldermen ordered all the playhouses closed as an aid to social distancing. Most of the actors fled town. Some playhouses went bankrupt. Was this a restriction of freedom? Yes! Was it moral? Yes!

In the great Italian writer Boccaccio’s masterwork, The Decameron, a bunch of people social distancing from the Bubonic Plague around 1348 entertained each other by telling stories. They had the money to flee to the country. Most people didn’t have that option. The tale tellers had the freedom to flee, and they fled. Most of us also have that freedom in The Villages. Other people have to work to serve us. They don’t have that freedom. Is our freedom moral? Yes. Is it moral to not do whatever we can to assure their health? No, that would be immoral.

There are many active diseases around the world that sometimes cause epidemics, and when they aren’t, it is usually because some people are giving up their freedom temporarily to prevent the spread of disease. For example, cholera, typhus, typhoid and malaria. Some of these still kill 300,000 or more people a year. They all have the potential to kill enormous numbers of people. Other diseases have come close to breaking loose and killing millions, but again were prevented because of thousands or millions who temporarily gave up freedoms, and thousands who risked their lives to care for people dying of these diseases, such as SARS, MERS, and Ebola. If everyone had insisted on having the freedom to go wherever they wanted, to visit sick patients as they lay dying, to maintain their usual funeral rites, many millions of people probably would have died.

The Villages pays for insecticidal spraying to decrease the number of mosquitoes and other nasty insects and the attendant diseases. Some people say that robs them of their freedom to not have insecticide on their lawns and shrubs. They say mosquitoes and other insects feed the birds. But sometimes there is a hedonic calculus (see the philosopher Jeremy Bentham—a favorite of Thomas Jefferson) that comes into play, letting us figure out what approach allows the most happiness and the least loss of freedom.

I’m a proud American, just like most of you, and I treasure my freedoms, just as you do, but I am also willing to temporarily surrender some freedoms in order to help others (and also myself) longer enjoy the pursuit of happiness. As far as I’m concerned, people who want to insist on their freedom to spread disease to others because temporary laws requiring social distancing, masks, and closed restaurants or golf courses restrict their precious American freedoms are immoral, un-American, and barely even human.

Go complain to General George Washington, who required that all of his troops at Valley Forge receive smallpox vaccinations, whether they wanted to or not. Several of these men died from the vaccinations, but possibly hundreds were saved.

[VillageLiberal]

I understand the frustrations that we all share and I understand that in our current situation our life style will and have to change drastically. I know that it hurts to have such a negative impact on ones economy and income. Fortunately, I am not impacted by the economic downturn and so many businesses have to shut their doors and deprive themselves and their employees of income. I also personally feel that I would rather suffer through this situation than to have someone infect the ones I love. I just could not live with that. All that being said, please let me put the situation in a different perspective, which I hope will ameliorate the suffering, pain and frustration:

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE........
1. There are no bombs raining on our heads
2. I am not a prisoner held in solitary confinement, as millions are.
3. I am not a refugee trying to escape with my life.
4. I am not standing in line waiting to fill a pot of water.
5. I have access to fresh food and I'm not starving.
6. I have hot running water.
7. My country has not been ruined by years of war.
8. I can reach my friends by phone and check in on them.
9. My friends check in on me because they care about me.
10. Any whiplash I feel about this strange turn of events is itself a sign of privilege.
11. More than half of the world would gladly trade their everyday problems for the modest inconveniences I am experiencing.
12. I may have anxious dreams but I'm dreaming them on a proper bed and I'm not sleeping on the sidewalk.
13. By staying at home, I'm helping the planet rest.
14. As long as I have my mind I can create, imagine, dream and not be lonely.
15. This global crisis connects me to people around the world and reminds me of our common humanity. This is a good thing.
16. When something tragic happens to another country next time, I will respond to it not with superiority, but humility and recognition. 17. I will fight for positive changes and economically just policies in my own country.
18. I am surrounded by books.
19. I am surrounded by love.
20. The tulips have already begun to bloom.

You forgot Netflix! That goodness for the Internet and Netflix.

[Bogie Shooter]

The pools provide exercise for people unable to run or walk. I for one have lower back issues. The only exercise that keeps the pain away is swimming laps/walking in the pool. Now that the snow-birds are gone OPEN UP THE POOLS. The volley ball, sports activities will have to wait. BUT the pools are not crowded this time of the year and those who want to sun bathe can alternate lounge chairs.

I see the beautiful golf courses CLOSED at 4:00...WHY, everything else is closed why not keep the only activity that is going strong open longer...maybe till 7:00pm. I went out on a course at 4:30, alone. It was as beautiful as ever, weather, sun going down, EMPTY! At the 6th hole the AMBASSADOR started YELLING at me. She told me there is a VIRUS going around....WOW!, didn't realize it!! She told me to immediately pick up my golf balls (2) AND NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!! I felt like I had to stand in the corner for an hour. Last time I looked we still pay our HOA FEE? IF, they reduce most of the activities in one area, why not increase them (GOLF) in another to off set it??

So the rules don't apply to you?

[billethkid]

So, you knowingly broke the rules because YOU decided it was OK for YOU to do so...

Then, you call out the ambassador who is only trying to do their job? And we wonder why activities are closed or restricted because "some people" can't follow the rules???

like stop signs and speed limit signs, no enforcement = no penalty = no fear = the violations will continue.....

[Windguy]

I see the beautiful golf courses CLOSED at 4:00...WHY, everything else is closed why not keep the only activity that is going strong open longer...maybe till 7:00pm.
What I heard was that many of the starters and ambassadors are staying home to be safe and those that remain would have to work really long hours.

[davidkath]

The virus has killed more than 1,800 Americans almost every day since April 7, and the official toll may be an undercount.

By comparison, heart disease typically kills 1,774 Americans a day, and cancer kills 1,641.

The virus in now spreading to the suburbs and rural areas.
If you believe false or inaccurate statistics. VERY low percentages

[Windguy]

speak to someone from a country with single payer & they can tell you they were happy to get out of a socialist 'paradise'
Gee. I have a Canadian friend who hates going home every summer but won't move permanently to the US because she is afraid to lose her great healthcare. 90% of the foreigners I know or meet while travelling are astonished at just how stupid we are.

I guess we hang out in different circles.

[Fred2016]

I guess when you drive or ride in your car you don’t bother wearing your seat belt. What the hell, live on the wild side.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What I heard was that many of the starters and ambassadors are staying home to be safe and those that remain would have to work really long hours.

Yup. They can't go home until all the carts have been returned and sanitized, and the starters have brought any money collected to wherever it's supposed to end up in some semi-central location (I don't know the details on this but the Ambassadors have to sometimes escort the starters so obviously it involves "somewhere else.")

The Ambassadors are supposed to be out on the course, making sure that the folks who went out at the end of the tee-time schedule are moving at a reasonable pace. So if they see someone who wasn't ON that schedule, in the middle of the course, then yeah they would be right in telling that person to get off the course.

If you didn't schedule a tee time, it means you went unauthorized onto a course that was still technically open for business (the tee times stop at 4 - the course remains open until the last golfer has returned from their play).

Those are the people who create the problems - not just that the rules don't apply to them, but that the rules are wrong and shouldn't be followed at all.

That is why the rules are enforced more strictly, and new rules made with more severe consequences.

You want your freedoms back? Then exercise some self-restraint. If you are incapable of behaving like an adult, then expect to be treated like a child.

[karostay]

Notice how the two states, CA and NY, are squealing for a bailout. Hmmm. Sounds like the governors are not managing their budgets very well. NY and CA have the highest taxes yet have spent it all on ridiculous projects or sanctuary cities. Why should be bail them out when they squandered all of the money in taxes. Seems to me if the federal government bails them out it will never create an incentive for them to manage their budgets responsibility.

The 2 most clueless Governors in the US Oh! and throw Conn in there while your at it

[Bill1701]

While I agree that the courses should remain open after 4, the reason they are not has to do with staffing. There are simply not enough workers to keep them going in the evenings. It has nothing to do with the virus except that many workers are staying home. The rules are clearly posted. No one is allowed to start on the courses after 4.

[popbaby2]

What I heard was that many of the starters and ambassadors are staying home to be safe and those that remain would have to work really long hours.
So they should hire more ambassadors. I’m not playing but i live on a golf course, and all the players i see are practicing social distancing. I wear a mask when i (rarely) go out, and support the quarantine, but golf should not be limited by the absence of ambassadors.

[Joorn59]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

Wearing masks right now may save the health care SYSTEM. The past six weeks mitigated the virus. It’s not dead, it’s still out there. Wearing a mask will keep the number of new cases suppressed until vaccine.
I for one would rather the hospital be able to resume regular functions.

[Windguy]

So they should hire more ambassadors.

Did I just hear you volunteer to become an ambassador for minimum wage? It's much easier said than done. Could you learn to do all the things ambassadors and starters do and be ready to go tomorrow? What happens when the threat passes? Who do you let go when the regulars come back?

[georgea]

Thank you Bill 1701 for a bit of wisdom here. We have no idea if this virus is worse than the normal flu that goes thru the population and kills about 60,000 anually. The Government has put out edicts based on models that so far have proven to be grossly overexaggerated. Too many politicians are using this as some sort of power play for themselves, the governor of Michigan for example. I applaud those in Michigan fighting for their rights against the nonsensical edict of their Governor.

[CastleSteve]

I believe that the government should require everyone that works in stores that are considered to be Essential should be wearing a facial mask and also require any customer that enters the essentials store also be wearing a mask as long as they are in the store. That way the employees protect the customer's and the customer's protect the employees as long as this 30 day period lasts unless they increase the time.

[Marykschulz]

People who don’t want to maintain social distancing are like the folks who refuse to leave their homes in mandatory hurricane evacuation orders. When the hurricane gets to them, many call rescuers to risk their lives to come help them. When people who don’t like the stay at home orders get sick, they will expect health workers to risk their own lives to treat them. Maybe if they would agree to just die at home in the hurricanes or when they get Covid, the rest of us would not think of them as selfish? Covid is not just the flu or a car accident, or cancer. It is highly contagious and deadly for many. Listen to the scientists.

[toeser]

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

It is a simple fact of life that 99% of the population needs money to survive. To make it either / or is just too simplistic.

[JoelJohnson]

How do we know how many die from heart attacks each year? Data. How do we know how many people die from cars accidents each year? Data. How do we know how many died from the flu last year (and all the years before)? Data.

My point is that without data all you are doing is guessing. At the last time I checked, around 1% (or less) of Americans have been tested, How many have been re-tested? How many people died from this and it didn't get recorded as a Corvid-18 death? How many have gotten it and didn't know it and recovered?
As the doctors and scientist say, we need data.

Yes people are suffering (including my own kids), but I rather see them alive (and hungry) then have to bury them.
This is a great country with lots of resources, no one should starve. We have a federally government for just such situations. Let's get them to do their job!

[bumpygreens]

Confining the sick, and limiting their contact with others is called quarantine. Doing the same to a healthy person is imprisonment. Making excuses to blur the distinction is demagoguery.

[ts12755]

If wearing a mask untill we get to phase II im for it. It will give us freedom and let businesses open. If you are sick and don't know it wearing a mask will keep you from getting others sick

[MandoMan]

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

Answer from a Facebook letter from a Nurse in Michigan:

“I am posting, for once, about something other than my dog.

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 get intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNRs, sweat my butt off during CPR, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss.

All of this in two shifts in a row.

Some of you people have never done EVERYTHING you could to save someone, and watched them die anyway, and it shows.

I would have no problem if you fools worried about your "freedom" all went out and got COVID. If only you could sign a form stating that you revoke your right to have medical treatment based on your cavalier antics and refusal to abide by CDC and medical professionals' advice. If you were the only people who got infected during your escapades to protest tyranny, great. But that's sadly not how this works.

You wanna complain because the garden aisle is closed? If you knew a thing about gardening, you'd know it's too early to plant in Michigan. Your garden doesn't matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the **** out of your "essential" garden beds.

Upset because you can't go boating...in Michigan...in April...in the cold-ass water? You wanna tell my patient's daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the phone) about your first-world problems?

Upset because you can't go to your cottage up north? Your cottage...your second property...used for leisure. My coworkers can't even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms, not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade "tyranny", it's all such bull****. I'm sorry you're bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple hours for me? Yeah, didn't think so. I wouldn't trust most of you with patient care, anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shoutout to my coworkers, the real MVPs.”

[Schaumburger]

Some people's narrow view reminds me of the old cigarette smokers logic " it's my body and my right" . No, not when your carelessness can I'll affect me. Grow up, buckle down and ride it out Buttercup

Spot on!

[Schaumburger]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

In your reckless and selfish pursuit of freedom, if you catch the virus, please don't spread it to your neighbors, friends, relatives, health care workers who may have to take care of you in the hospital or anyone else who wants to spend a few (or many) more years on this earth. SMH.

[Schaumburger]

in that “liberal sink hole” of NY, more people are working TOGETHER with compassion, kindness, generosity to find the COMMON ground of healing. What are you doing? If we could just find what we we all have in COMMON instead of throwing slurs out to one another. Ponder that, if you will.

Well said!

[Schaumburger]

I understand the frustrations that we all share and I understand that in our current situation our life style will and have to change drastically. I know that it hurts to have such a negative impact on ones economy and income. Fortunately, I am not impacted by the economic downturn and so many businesses have to shut their doors and deprive themselves and their employees of income. I also personally feel that I would rather suffer through this situation than to have someone infect the ones I love. I just could not live with that. All that being said, please let me put the situation in a different perspective, which I hope will ameliorate the suffering, pain and frustration:

A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE........
1. There are no bombs raining on our heads
2. I am not a prisoner held in solitary confinement, as millions are.
3. I am not a refugee trying to escape with my life.
4. I am not standing in line waiting to fill a pot of water.
5. I have access to fresh food and I'm not starving.
6. I have hot running water.
7. My country has not been ruined by years of war.
8. I can reach my friends by phone and check in on them.
9. My friends check in on me because they care about me.
10. Any whiplash I feel about this strange turn of events is itself a sign of privilege.
11. More than half of the world would gladly trade their everyday problems for the modest inconveniences I am experiencing.
12. I may have anxious dreams but I'm dreaming them on a proper bed and I'm not sleeping on the sidewalk.
13. By staying at home, I'm helping the planet rest.
14. As long as I have my mind I can create, imagine, dream and not be lonely.
15. This global crisis connects me to people around the world and reminds me of our common humanity. This is a good thing.
16. When something tragic happens to another country next time, I will respond to it not with superiority, but humility and recognition. 17. I will fight for positive changes and economically just policies in my own country.
18. I am surrounded by books.
19. I am surrounded by love.
20. The tulips have already begun to bloom.

Great post...very well said.

[Schaumburger]

Thank you Bill 1701 for a bit of wisdom here. We have no idea if this virus is worse than the normal flu that goes thru the population and kills about 60,000 anually. The Government has put out edicts based on models that so far have proven to be grossly overexaggerated. Too many politicians are using this as some sort of power play for themselves, the governor of Michigan for example. I applaud those in Michigan fighting for their rights against the nonsensical edict of their Governor.

I hope those fighting for their "rights" in Michigan don't come down with COVID-19 in 2 to 3 weeks and spread it to their friends, neighbors, family members, fellow shoppers, co-workers, etc. And the "freedom fighters" certainly shouldn't expect health care workers to risk their lives taking care of them if they do end up in the hospital.

[Bogie Shooter]

Answer from a Facebook letter from a Nurse in Michigan:

“I am posting, for once, about something other than my dog.

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 get intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNRs, sweat my butt off during CPR, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss.

All of this in two shifts in a row.

Some of you people have never done EVERYTHING you could to save someone, and watched them die anyway, and it shows.

I would have no problem if you fools worried about your "freedom" all went out and got COVID. If only you could sign a form stating that you revoke your right to have medical treatment based on your cavalier antics and refusal to abide by CDC and medical professionals' advice. If you were the only people who got infected during your escapades to protest tyranny, great. But that's sadly not how this works.

You wanna complain because the garden aisle is closed? If you knew a thing about gardening, you'd know it's too early to plant in Michigan. Your garden doesn't matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the **** out of your "essential" garden beds.

Upset because you can't go boating...in Michigan...in April...in the cold-ass water? You wanna tell my patient's daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the phone) about your first-world problems?

Upset because you can't go to your cottage up north? Your cottage...your second property...used for leisure. My coworkers can't even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms, not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade "tyranny", it's all such bull****. I'm sorry you're bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple hours for me? Yeah, didn't think so. I wouldn't trust most of you with patient care, anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shoutout to my coworkers, the real MVPs.”

There are a number posters on TOTV that should read this...………...3 times!

[JoMar]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

Easy to say while you are healthy. Wait till you are sick or even very sick, will you look at your spouse, your kids and grand kids and show them, by example, what it is to select death. Is that the image you want to leave for them? Do you want them to know, that having all information, knowing the only cure is your imume system, you walked into death so you could get to the squares to hear music?

[ColdNoMore]

Answer from a Facebook letter from a Nurse in Michigan:

“I am posting, for once, about something other than my dog.

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 get intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNRs, sweat my butt off during CPR, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss.

All of this in two shifts in a row.

Some of you people have never done EVERYTHING you could to save someone, and watched them die anyway, and it shows.

I would have no problem if you fools worried about your "freedom" all went out and got COVID. If only you could sign a form stating that you revoke your right to have medical treatment based on your cavalier antics and refusal to abide by CDC and medical professionals' advice. If you were the only people who got infected during your escapades to protest tyranny, great. But that's sadly not how this works.

You wanna complain because the garden aisle is closed? If you knew a thing about gardening, you'd know it's too early to plant in Michigan. Your garden doesn't matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the **** out of your "essential" garden beds.

Upset because you can't go boating...in Michigan...in April...in the cold-ass water? You wanna tell my patient's daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the phone) about your first-world problems?

Upset because you can't go to your cottage up north? Your cottage...your second property...used for leisure. My coworkers can't even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms, not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade "tyranny", it's all such bull****. I'm sorry you're bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple hours for me? Yeah, didn't think so. I wouldn't trust most of you with patient care, anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shoutout to my coworkers, the real MVPs.”

Your post gives me hope, that there are less selfish/nasty/self-absorbed people out there...than it sometimes seems. :ohdear:

To all of those in that nurse's situation, please take care of yourself as you go day-to-day and try to remember, with comfort & knowledge...that you ARE so very much appreciated. :BigApplause:

You, your coworkers and so many others (some even making poverty wages, who have no health insurance, leave to use or ability to telecommute), ie: convenience/grocery store workers and others like delivery & truck drivers/railroad workers/mail workers/Etc., not to even mention police/fire/first responders/Etc., Etc. ...are MY and many others REAL heroes. :bigbow:

[ColdNoMore]

There are a number posters on TOTV that should read this...………...3 times!

:bigbow:...:bigbow:...:bigbow:

[Scorpyo]

Can you believe they won’t let me a have a bunch of drinks and go site seeing in my car? That’s just wrong. I can’t believe I can’t drive as fast as I want through a school zone or around a stopped school bus. After all I’m late for work and they want me to jeopardize my job. Dam government. Can you believe they won’t let me smoke a carton of cigarettes in a restaurant? Hey if other people don’t like it they should stay home. Can you believe I have to go to a gun range to shoot my weapons. I should be able to shoot cans in my backyard with my .357 magnum. If the neighbors don’t like it they should stay indoors. Based on some of the comments I’ve read it would appear that some would actually want to do some of the things I’ve listed above.

For those who feel we should immediately get back to playing pickelball, dancing, restaurants, etc. let me tell you how I feel. If I should get the virus even though I’m doing what’s right then so be it. What I don’t want to do is spread it to someone else.

I really don’t know the folks that said if I get it while I’m being “free” then that’s the breaks. If you get it that’s fine with me. But if you’re so reckless what makes you think you won’t give it to someone else, maybe even a younger person with a family. Reality check – some younger people do get it and die. Don’t you care about giving it to others? Probably not. Well why don’t you look closer to home? There are plenty of people who, unfortunately, think like you. So, what do you think of them sharing the virus with the younger people in your family such as your children or grandchildren. Actually I’m a little scared of what your answer might be. I have two sons. One with the NYPD the other with the FDNY. They have a better than average chance of contracting the virus, unfortunately that chance is escalated by selfish attitudes of some of the respondents to this subject.

Reminds me of my kids when they were young. You take away their playtime and they rant and rave. Guess some just don’t grow up.

[ColdNoMore]

Easy to say while you are healthy. Wait till you are sick or even very sick, will you look at your spouse, your kids and grand kids and show them, by example, what it is to select death. Is that the image you want to leave for them? Do you want them to know, that having all information, knowing the only cure is your imume system, you walked into death so you could get to the squares to hear music?

In a perfect world, there would be a way to ensure that only those types suffered the consequences...of their selfish and lack-of-a-conscience attitude. :oops:

But alas... :ohdear:

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

So they should hire more ambassadors. I’m not playing but i live on a golf course, and all the players i see are practicing social distancing. I wear a mask when i (rarely) go out, and support the quarantine, but golf should not be limited by the absence of ambassadors.

Well by all means, petition to the powers that be so that you can personally interview all the applicants, weed out the ones that won't qualify, then schedule their group orientation, which would require you to purchase a building and open it just for the occasion - since the offices and halls usually designated for this are closed due to a pandemic you might not have heard about.

Your first world problems are trite and trivial. Play handball against your house wall if you really need to get a ball from point A to point B and not being able to do so during the appropriate tee-times is hurting you in your feelings place.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I believe that the government should require everyone that works in stores that are considered to be Essential should be wearing a facial mask and also require any customer that enters the essentials store also be wearing a mask as long as they are in the store. That way the employees protect the customer's and the customer's protect the employees as long as this 30 day period lasts unless they increase the time.

I wish they'd eliminate the end-dates for everything. The answer to "when will these things re-open" should be "when the virus tapers off and/or a working vaccine is made available to the public."

And anyone who is not at *medical risk* who refuses to take the vaccine, would have to continue isolation/quarantine, until the virus is gone - whether for the season, or forever - whichever comes first.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

Caesar was a dictator, and was assassinated by his own Senators. His rise to power and subsequent assassination on the Ides of March triggered the fall of the Roman Empire.

[xNYer]

Confining the sick, and limiting their contact with others is called quarantine. Doing the same to a healthy person is imprisonment. Making excuses to blur the distinction is demagoguery.

Quarantine from Miriam-Webster
: a restraint upon the activities or communication of persons or the transport of goods designed to prevent the spread of disease or pests

You created a self made definition.

[mjpuleo]

everyone should do their part to stay healthy and safe and there would be no controversy

[coffeebean]

..........Can't we just please take a deep breath, watch another episode of Leave it to Beaver, knowing that the restrictions will be lifted when it is appropriate that be lifted. Perhaps that time will be when we can all be tested?

I can not ever imagine everyone in our country being tested. Those who test negative will need to be tested every couple of days or at most, every week. Are we going to test everyone for as long as it takes for them to test positive? That is an awful lot of testing and, IMHO, an impossible feat.

[jklfairwin]

I don't mind anyone choosing to die for whatever reason, but don't endanger my life in the process.

[BevSparks]

Once people get tested for antibody things will begin to return to normal. In the future it might be a good idea to wear a mask when you are sick and out in public so you don't infect others. I say that because I have no immune system and have to be extra careful every single day, I can't swim in pools and have to be very careful touching anything in public. I am living as if everyone has a virus of some type on a daily basis. I also wear a mask if I have a cold so I do not infect others. :)

[jimmio]

I'll only comment on your first point.
I'm 58, my neighbors are both in their 90's and lovely people.
I look out for them like I was their son and am never asked to do anything outside of the norm.
I love them. God Bless them. Yes, I am my brothers keeper.

[NavyVet]

Answer from a Facebook letter from a Nurse in Michigan:

“I am posting, for once, about something other than my dog.

I have seen 4 patients die, 5 get intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNRs, sweat my butt off during CPR, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss.

All of this in two shifts in a row.

Some of you people have never done EVERYTHING you could to save someone, and watched them die anyway, and it shows.

I would have no problem if you fools worried about your "freedom" all went out and got COVID. If only you could sign a form stating that you revoke your right to have medical treatment based on your cavalier antics and refusal to abide by CDC and medical professionals' advice. If you were the only people who got infected during your escapades to protest tyranny, great. But that's sadly not how this works.

You wanna complain because the garden aisle is closed? If you knew a thing about gardening, you'd know it's too early to plant in Michigan. Your garden doesn't matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the **** out of your "essential" garden beds.

Upset because you can't go boating...in Michigan...in April...in the cold-ass water? You wanna tell my patient's daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the phone) about your first-world problems?

Upset because you can't go to your cottage up north? Your cottage...your second property...used for leisure. My coworkers can't even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms, not able to see their spouses or babies.

All of these posts, petitions online to evade "tyranny", it's all such bull****. I'm sorry you're bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple hours for me? Yeah, didn't think so. I wouldn't trust most of you with patient care, anyway. Not just because of the selfish lack of humanity your posts exude, but because most of those posts and petitions are so riddled with misspellings and grammatical errors, that it makes me question your cognitive capacity.

Shoutout to my coworkers, the real MVPs.”

This! Yes, yes, yes, to all of it. :bigbow: First world problems indeed. Just don't understand the boo-hooing about not being able to play pickleball, etc or get drunk on the squares - a minor inconvenience at best - compared to what the rest of the WORLD is going through. Suck it up. All the people bitching about their civil liberties for having to follow rules for everyone's safety are just showing their unpatriotic selfishness. Maybe martial law would straighten out their priorities. They don't know what sacrifice is. Their attitudes are going to ruin it for the rest of us and we will end up winning the Darwin Award. It's embarrassing to even live here amongst them. All I can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. SMH
To all the medical personnel, first responders, LEOs, military, etc: Thank you so much for your Service. You really are the heroes.

[Skunky1]

Agreed

[rmd2]

universal Perhaps the real issue is not liberty or freedom, they are very different. The issue may be ”responsibility” and justice.

You can choose to act responsibly and above all remember the word is justice. Most think the word is just us.

If this does not wake up America to the need for universal health care then I don’t know what will.

If everybody has good universal health care ( single payer) the economy will be a lot stronger and everyone will win even the medical community.
Key word GOOD universal health care. No one on earth has GOOD universal health care. The reason we are a world leader in health care is competition and capitalism. Even in the UK which has a semi-universal health care system the wait for a biopsy can not days but many months.

[Love2Swim]

This! Yes, yes, yes, to all of it. :bigbow: First world problems indeed. Just don't understand the boo-hooing about not being able to play pickleball, etc or get drunk on the squares - a minor inconvenience at best - compared to what the rest of the WORLD is going through. Suck it up. All the people bitching about their civil liberties for having to follow rules for everyone's safety are just showing their unpatriotic selfishness. Maybe martial law would straighten out their priorities. They don't know what sacrifice is. Their attitudes are going to ruin it for the rest of us and we will end up winning the Darwin Award. It's embarrassing to even live here amongst them. All I can say is Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. SMH
To all the medical personnel, first responders, LEOs, military, etc: Thank you so much for your Service. You really are the heroes.

Agree. We've all seen the crowds at the newly opened up beaches, and how people are completely disregarding social distancing, masks, etc. And that's why the states have to make you stay home. Stop yelling about "rights" and "freedoms". The dumbasses will always ruin it for the rest.

[DanBrew]

I'm sorry to say that "personal accountability and responsibility" appears to be a thing of the past. Journalism without opinion is as well, and it doesn't matter what network you are watching. Soon, the majority of the population will be looking to the almighty government to take care of their every need. So far it has only been want, but soon it will become need. Many in our society today don't understand the difference between the two. This has been an evolving reality since the 80's.

[RRman77 retired]

Wow!

[Bill1701]

Karma could be why the older are being hit harder by the virus.

[RRman77 retired]

Well written!

[oneclickplus]

Interesting, and hitting upon an important point! Bravo.

One man's health (in today's world) is being balanced upon another man's economic well-being, and in some cases... lest we forget... his very SURVIVAL.

Did anyone miss the 4-mile auto backup for (FREE) food assistance in San Antonio.

I believe it's important to remember that a HUGE number or of US citizens are living pay check to pay check, and can't easily absorb 8+ weeks without income. For many, this goes incredibly far beyond an inconvenience.

What about the increased alcoholism / drug use / suicides caused by the shutdown? By your logic, their lives / health / well-being are less important than those who might get coronavirus.

Why is that?

[Aloha1]

Caesar was a dictator, and was assassinated by his own Senators. His rise to power and subsequent assassination on the Ides of March triggered the fall of the Roman Empire.

Uh, no. It caused the Roman Empire. And "dictator" in the Roman Republic had a meaning different from our use of the word today.

[Aloha1]

Here's a data point being ignored by most:
The Stanford study recently concluded tested over 3,000 Santa Clara County, CA residents for ANTIBODIES. The test results pointed to a positive (had the Wuhan virus) result 50 to 85 times the CDC daily positive number. As of this morning, 4/20, the CDC count is 760,000 people have, at some point, tested positive. If the count is off 50 fold then the true positive count is at least 38 million. If off 85 fold then 64.6 million. Why is this important? Two reasons, first it means we may be approaching "herd" immunity without which we'll never get off this merry go round. Second, it means the true death percentage from positive cases may very well be .1% to .2% and not 5, 8 10, or what ever number you see in the media.

Why is the CDC not doing relative population testing across the country. Within a week, we would have enough data to extrapolate and corroborate these findings. Relative testing is something the CDC does all the time. Why not now?

[billethkid]

Here's a data point being ignored by most:
The Stanford study recently concluded tested over 3,000 Santa Clara County, CA residents for ANTIBODIES. The test results pointed to a positive (had the Wuhan virus) result 50 to 85 times the CDC daily positive number. As of this morning, 4/20, the CDC count is 760,000 people have, at some point, tested positive. If the count is off 50 fold then the true positive count is at least 38 million. If off 85 fold then 64.6 million. Why is this important? Two reasons, first it means we may be approaching "herd" immunity without which we'll never get off this merry go round. Second, it means the true death percentage from positive cases may very well be .1% to .2% and not 5, 8 10, or what ever number you see in the media.

Why is the CDC not doing relative population testing across the country. Within a week, we would have enough data to extrapolate and corroborate these findings. Relative testing is something the CDC does all the time. Why not now?

One "could" conclude (right or wrong), those that govern find value in fear factor retention.

[davem4616]

I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be: “Is it OK for my indifference, carelessness, or selfishness to endanger someone else?”

Do you think that stop signs infringe on your freedom and that it’s OK to run them? Isn’t running a stop sign and causing an accident that takes someone’s life similar to coughing and spraying someone with your C-19 germs? In the case of the stop sign, you could be charged with manslaughter. By trying to maintain your regular activities and ignoring the guidance to cover your face to stop your germs from being sprayed on others, your are being reckless and are endangering others’ lives. You might not be convicted of reckless endangerment, but if someone dies because of your selfishness you HAVE committed manslaughter and are just as guilty as someone who ignores stop signs.

I agree with you...

unfortunately the logic in what you're saying will go way over the heads of the very people that really need to stop, listen and get with the program

[Number 10 GI]

Perhaps the real issue is not liberty or freedom, they are very different. The issue may be ”responsibility” and justice.

You can choose to act responsibly and above all remember the word is justice. Most think the word is just us.

If this does not wake up America to the need for universal health care then I don’t know what will.

If everybody has good universal health care ( single payer) the economy will be a lot stronger and everyone will win even the medical community.

How would universal health care have stopped this pandemic any sooner than the current system?????? How would it help the economy??? Let me help you out here, it wouldn't make any difference.

[davem4616]

I'm sorry to say that "personal accountability and responsibility" appears to be a thing of the past. Journalism without opinion is as well, and it doesn't matter what network you are watching. Soon, the majority of the population will be looking to the almighty government to take care of their every need. So far it has only been want, but soon it will become need. Many in our society today don't understand the difference between the two. This has been an evolving reality since the 80's.


I agree with you...and let's throw in integrity. If you have integrity nothing else matters, if you don't have integrity nothing else matters

oh for the days of Huntley/Brinkley and Walter Cronkite....they reported the news...every journalist (and I use that term loosely) today wants to be come the next Woodward or Bernstein....

we have become a nation of selfish people that want everything for free....

I believe in helping others get up on their feet and stay there....but WAY to many people are 'gaming' the system and they want more free stuff...sadly it has become a way of life for too many

Now the country of Bermuda has a welfare system that seems to work....everyone that receives welfare has to have a job, doesn't matter how much you earn at the job, but you must have a job...Bermuda's system will then subsidize them so that they have enough money to live a respectable and secure lifestyle...which after all is how we'd hope everybody is able to live

[davem4616]

How would universal health care have stopped this pandemic any sooner than the current system?????? How would it help the economy??? Let me help you out here, it wouldn't make any difference.


totally agree with you....UK and Canada both have universal healthcare...

oops they're facing the same challenges that we in the USA are facing...how can that be if universal single payer healthcare is the solution???

China and the WHO (the watchdog that wasn't) screwed everybody else by not telling everyone what needed to be said as quickly as possible

[Donb0975]

And the govt will tell you when and where and if you can get health care. No thank you to an ever bigger govt.

[Two Bills]

universal
Key word GOOD universal health care. No one on earth has GOOD universal health care. The reason we are a world leader in health care is competition and capitalism. Even in the UK which has a semi-universal health care system the wait for a biopsy can not days but many months.

If you can afford it!

[stevethepeddler]

Over 125,000 in TV and only a handful have been tested! Amazing. Save ourselves and distance and wear a mask.

[blueash]

Here's a data point being ignored by most:
The Stanford study recently concluded tested over 3,000 Santa Clara County, CA residents for ANTIBODIES. The test results pointed to a positive (had the Wuhan virus) result 50 to 85 times the CDC daily positive number. As of this morning, 4/20, the CDC count is 760,000 people have, at some point, tested positive. If the count is off 50 fold then the true positive count is at least 38 million. If off 85 fold then 64.6 million. Why is this important? Two reasons, first it means we may be approaching "herd" immunity without which we'll never get off this merry go round. Second, it means the true death percentage from positive cases may very well be .1% to .2% and not 5, 8 10, or what ever number you see in the media.

Why is the CDC not doing relative population testing across the country. Within a week, we would have enough data to extrapolate and corroborate these findings. Relative testing is something the CDC does all the time. Why not now?

I don't know what "relative testing" means to you. But I can reply to your misunderstanding of the Stanford study. (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf) Click if you want to read it yourself.
The test results pointed to a positive (had the Wuhan virus) result 50 to 85 times the CDC daily positive number.
None of the tests were for the Wuhan virus That is not a medical term. The CDC has not ever produced a daily number. The numbers are produced by states individually and reported on media sources.

The Stanford study was NOT random. It was done in a county with the 4th highest number of COVID cases in California. They did not go out and randomly sample people for antibodies. Instead they placed an ad on Facebook to recruit people who volunteered to have their blood drawn for antibodies. Does this seem to be a good representation of the population, or maybe, just maybe, it would interest people who wanted to know if they'd been infected because of a mild illness or exposure where they couldn't get nasal swab tests done?

The study likely includes more positive people than a random sample would contain. The authors report that their volunteers were not representative of the county at large. It included far too many middle age white females. Of 3330 samples, only 50 were positive, a rate of 1.5% on a sample I believe tested higher than a random sample.

But there is more: The test kit being used is not FDA approved. The kit was tested for accuracy using known blood samples.
A combination of both data sources provides us with a combined sensitivity of 80.3% (95 CI 72.1-87.0%) and a specificity of 99.5% (95 CI 98.3-99.9%).

Sensitivity means it says positive if you are positive. So between 13 and 28% of people who are positive are mistakenly reported as negative. You are missing positives.
More importantly between 0.1 and 1.7% of negative are being mistakenly reported as positives.
If you test report 3330 tests, from 3 to 56 of your true negatives are being reported a positive. Guess how many positive tests they got.. 50. All of their positives could be false positives within the margin of error of the test. If you use the 99.5% specificity, then 16 of your positives are really negative, a full 1/3 wrong. Be very cautious when your finding is entirely in the margin of error.

And there's more to follow:

[Trophy25]

Take a look at how universal Healthcare works in Canada, Brazil and some European countries. Trust me you do not want it.

[blueash]

It would be very misleading not to do the same analysis for the negative tests. Here the utilized kit is only sensitive at about 80%. A good test is at least 90%, but it is what they were using. This means that of the 3280 negative results between 13% = 425 and 28 % = 918 were wrongly reported and should have been positive. Think about that, they reported 50 positives, but based on the poor quality of the test and of the sample, instead did calculations saying that there were really 139 positives [4.16% times 3330]. Do you see the possibility of a wide range of error?

Hold on, those are not the numbers used because the authors elected to try to use their sample and re-balance so it would better represent the population of Santa Clara county. This is standard. Their sample was badly unbalanced, again possibly reflection selection bias. 63% were female where the county is 50%, 76 % were between 19-64 where the county is 62%, 5% were over 64 where the county is 13%.

The authors balanced 63% female: the real county = female 50, balanced data 50
They balanced the ethnicity tested white 64%; real white = 33%, balanced data 35%
They strangely "balanced" tested over 64 5% : real over 64 = 13% to over 64 = 4.5 % I see no explanation why they failed to correct their data for age which is a major risk factor for disease. And the elderly represent much of the county reported positives.

The study does not break down how many in each tested group were positive. They obviously did not test people in nursing homes or hospitals. The authors did not correct for age but felt they needed to correct for zip code.

Using the correction to balance for the atypical sample population, they then estimate the "real" rate of persons who have had COVID in the county is 50 to 85 times higher than the positive PCR results reported. As you can see there are some significant problems, IMO, with the test used and the way they ignored age as a factor in their analysis. As of today, 26% of positive tests PCR tests in Santa Clara are in people over 64. If you undercount the elderly in your sample, of course you will miss positive cases. PM me if you want to run through some of the math.

And there is more:

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Blueash ! keep going! Spot on!

I was going to add the same!

sportsguy

[Curtisbwp]

Your words should provoke a self examination and soul searching. How many of your neighbors have checked on your wellbeing? Why do some of my neighbors have parties in the evening? Mine do.

[blueash]

Enough about the Stanford study. Now as to your analysis. I do not know if this is your original extrapolation or you read it elsewhere but it is so wrong.
As of this morning, 4/20, the CDC count is 760,000 people have, at some point, tested positive. If the count is off 50 fold then the true positive count is at least 38 million. If off 85 fold then 64.6 million. Why is this important? Two reasons, first it means we may be approaching "herd" immunity without which we'll never get off this merry go round. Second, it means the true death percentage from positive cases may very well be .1% to .2% and not 5, 8 10, or what ever number you see in the media.


You cannot use the national numbers the way you did. And the Stanford study which you are claiming supports your contention, refutes you directly. If the highest estimate of COVID in the study is accurate being 85 times the figures reported, that only applies to a community with the population and incidence reported that is similar to Santa Clara. So use their top number of 85 times, that percentage in Santa Clara is 4.16 % of the population. Stop, read it again.

If the study is perfect, the highest calculated number of people who are immune to COVID in Santa Clara is 4.16% of the population. If you want to use a multiple for the USA that is the one to focus on. 4.16 times 330 million = 14 million. And 96% of the US is not immune if only 4.16% are immune. Nationally today 750,000 positives are reported, out of 330,000,000. That is a rate of 0.23 % If the real rate is 85 times you get 19.2% of Americans have been infected. This still is nowhere near your figure and it completely ignores the huge fraction that is represented by the NYC metro epidemic. If you apply the 85 times figure to hard hit Westchester county NY, population 1 million, known cases 24,000, times 85 = 200,000 which is still only 20% of the people, nowhere near herd immunity. Apply it to Sumter FL, cases 147 * 85 = 12,500, less than 10% of our population. And all of these are using Stanford's highest numbers.

[perrjojo]

Is it my neighbors responsibility to keep me safe / healthy? it brings to mind the Hippocratic oath. First do no harm.

[blueash]

Lastly, and thanks for your patience and persistence..
Your choice to mention the death rate
the true death percentage from positive cases may very well be .1% to .2% and not 5, 8 10, or what ever number you see in the media. is so misleading. I believe the point you are making is that influenza has an estimated death rate of 0.1%, so if that is the "true death percentage" for COVID, it is no worse than seasonal flu.

Fail.
The calculation by the CDC of the fatality rate for influenza is complex. You can read about how they do it HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm) and HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm). Please do so and return. I'll wait

Welcome back. As you learned the flu estimate is based on a calculation, a model, which has as its inputs many factors. How many people are presenting to hospitals and selected outpatient clinics with flu-like illness, how many people after the end of flu season report that had significant flu symptoms even if they did not go for medical care, how many excess deaths there are from diseases known to have flu be a possible trigger, such as death from pneumonia, and information about how often flu tests are being done and how often they are positive at selected hospitals.

The influenza illness death rate is not a count based on what is on a death certificate. It is a much much higher number based on a statistical process looking for any deaths that might be, perhaps for lack of a better term, flu adjacent. The estimate of how many people had the flu includes in its number a best guess of all those with flu, not just those seen in a hospital, or those with a positive flu test, but everyone who had a flu-like illness. This give a large number for the denominator, with estimated deaths as the numerator.

This is totally, completely, astronomically, amazingly, different than the way COVID is now being calculated. At this time, except in some places, only deaths where there is a proven positive test are being listed as COVID deaths. This is the case in Florida. If you have all the COVID symptoms but you didn't get tested, you are NOT a COVID death. This of course artificially keeps the numbers down. Things look better than they really are. And this is especially true if the COVID tests miss a significant number of people who are really positive. This is widely reported. Note that in the Stanford study they missed about 20% of known positive controls. If these had been real patients who died, the official records of that 20% would not have COVID as a cause of death.

This is not how flu deaths were calculated, see above. Flu rate of death is an estimate of how many people died with influenza even if they never knew that had flu divided by an estimate of every person who had influenza like illness over the entire flu season. . It might be interesting to do a community wide test for antibodies to a particular circulating strain of influenza to see how many minimally ill or symptom free people were actually infected. It is not typically done. But that is what the Stanford Study is trying to do. Don't you think the denominator on the flu death calculation would be so much higher if asymptomatic people were included. Yup.
And HERE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586318/) is an article asking the same question as the Stanford study.. How different is the evidence from blood testing for flu from the patient report of a flu illness

in longitudinal studies in which infections were identified using serology the point estimates of the asymptomatic fraction adjusted for illness from other causes fell in the range 65%–85%. And that is the asymptomatic people, not including the low symptomatic people. None of these asymptomatic people are captured in the CDC's estimate of the number of persons who had influenza. And they need not be for the purposes of what the CDC is following. The CDC is very clear that the usual 0.1 % death rate is for persons with influenza like illnesses, and does not included lesser illness or no illness. You are of course saying you'd like to include lesser and no illness in your calculation to prove COVID is just like influenza. It is not. You are in error.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

blueash I understood maybe 1/10 of what you posted. It was strangely compelling, nonetheless! Probability/statistics was my second-favorite math subject (after computer programming), and the only thing I -really- got out of prob/stat was how to play by the rules in Blackjack and craps.

Great posts, blueash. Thank you!

[GoodLife]

Lastly, and thanks for your patience and persistence..
Your choice to mention the death rate
is so misleading. I believe the point you are making is that influenza has an estimated death rate of 0.1%, so if that is the "true death percentage" for COVID, it is no worse than seasonal flu.

Fail.
The calculation by the CDC of the fatality rate for influenza is complex. You can read about how they do it HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm) and HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm). Please do so and return. I'll wait

Welcome back. As you learned the flu estimate is based on a calculation, a model, which has as its inputs many factors. How many people are presenting to hospitals and selected outpatient clinics with flu-like illness, how many people after the end of flu season report that had significant flu symptoms even if they did not go for medical care, how many excess deaths there are from diseases known to have flu be a possible trigger, such as death from pneumonia, and information about how often flu tests are being done and how often they are positive at selected hospitals.

The influenza illness death rate is not a count based on what is on a death certificate. It is a much much higher number based on a statistical process looking for any deaths that might be, perhaps for lack of a better term, flu adjacent. The estimate of how many people had the flu includes in its number a best guess of all those with flu, not just those seen in a hospital, or those with a positive flu test, but everyone who had a flu-like illness. This give a large number for the denominator, with estimated deaths as the numerator.

This is totally, completely, astronomically, amazingly, different than the way COVID is now being calculated. At this time, except in some places, only deaths where there is a proven positive test are being listed as COVID deaths. This is the case in Florida. If you have all the COVID symptoms but you didn't get tested, you are NOT a COVID death. This of course artificially keeps the numbers down. Things look better than they really are. And this is especially true if the COVID tests miss a significant number of people who are really positive. This is widely reported. Note that in the Stanford study they missed about 20% of known positive controls. If these had been real patients who died, the official records of that 20% would not have COVID as a cause of death.

This is not how flu deaths were calculated, see above. Flu rate of death is an estimate of how many people died with influenza even if they never knew that had flu divided by an estimate of every person who had influenza like illness over the entire flu season. . It might be interesting to do a community wide test for antibodies to a particular circulating strain of influenza to see how many minimally ill or symptom free people were actually infected. It is not typically done. But that is what the Stanford Study is trying to do. Don't you think the denominator on the flu death calculation would be so much higher if asymptomatic people were included. Yup.
And HERE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586318/) is an article asking the same question as the Stanford study.. How different is the evidence from blood testing for flu from the patient report of a flu illness

And that is the asymptomatic people, not including the low symptomatic people. None of these asymptomatic people are captured in the CDC's estimate of the number of persons who had influenza. And they need not be for the purposes of what the CDC is following. The CDC is very clear that the usual 0.1 % death rate is for persons with influenza like illnesses, and does not included lesser illness or no illness. You are of course saying you'd like to include lesser and no illness in your calculation to prove COVID is just like influenza. It is not. You are in error.

Here is another antibody study in LA county done by USC and LA county health

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/usc-la-county-study-early-results-antibody-testing-305482/

And a study of realtime R1 for covid 19

covid-19/Realtime R0.ipynb at master * k-sys/covid-19 * GitHub (https://github.com/k-sys/covid-19/blob/master/Realtime%20R0.ipynb)

[ColdNoMore]

Lastly, and thanks for your patience and persistence..
Your choice to mention the death rate
is so misleading. I believe the point you are making is that influenza has an estimated death rate of 0.1%, so if that is the "true death percentage" for COVID, it is no worse than seasonal flu.

Fail.
The calculation by the CDC of the fatality rate for influenza is complex. You can read about how they do it HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm) and HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm). Please do so and return. I'll wait

Welcome back. As you learned the flu estimate is based on a calculation, a model, which has as its inputs many factors. How many people are presenting to hospitals and selected outpatient clinics with flu-like illness, how many people after the end of flu season report that had significant flu symptoms even if they did not go for medical care, how many excess deaths there are from diseases known to have flu be a possible trigger, such as death from pneumonia, and information about how often flu tests are being done and how often they are positive at selected hospitals.

The influenza illness death rate is not a count based on what is on a death certificate. It is a much much higher number based on a statistical process looking for any deaths that might be, perhaps for lack of a better term, flu adjacent. The estimate of how many people had the flu includes in its number a best guess of all those with flu, not just those seen in a hospital, or those with a positive flu test, but everyone who had a flu-like illness. This give a large number for the denominator, with estimated deaths as the numerator.

This is totally, completely, astronomically, amazingly, different than the way COVID is now being calculated. At this time, except in some places, only deaths where there is a proven positive test are being listed as COVID deaths. This is the case in Florida. If you have all the COVID symptoms but you didn't get tested, you are NOT a COVID death. This of course artificially keeps the numbers down. Things look better than they really are. And this is especially true if the COVID tests miss a significant number of people who are really positive. This is widely reported. Note that in the Stanford study they missed about 20% of known positive controls. If these had been real patients who died, the official records of that 20% would not have COVID as a cause of death.

This is not how flu deaths were calculated, see above. Flu rate of death is an estimate of how many people died with influenza even if they never knew that had flu divided by an estimate of every person who had influenza like illness over the entire flu season. . It might be interesting to do a community wide test for antibodies to a particular circulating strain of influenza to see how many minimally ill or symptom free people were actually infected. It is not typically done. But that is what the Stanford Study is trying to do. Don't you think the denominator on the flu death calculation would be so much higher if asymptomatic people were included. Yup.
And HERE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586318/) is an article asking the same question as the Stanford study.. How different is the evidence from blood testing for flu from the patient report of a flu illness

And that is the asymptomatic people, not including the low symptomatic people. None of these asymptomatic people are captured in the CDC's estimate of the number of persons who had influenza. And they need not be for the purposes of what the CDC is following. The CDC is very clear that the usual 0.1 % death rate is for persons with influenza like illnesses, and does not included lesser illness or no illness. You are of course saying you'd like to include lesser and no illness in your calculation to prove COVID is just like influenza. It is not. You are in error.

As is your usual...well done. :thumbup:

[queasy27]

This is a study from England/Wales that looked at average death rates over time and supports the theory that coronavirus deaths may be underreported.

Nick Stripe, the health analysis and life events division at the Office for National Statistics said the ONS figures showed around 8,000 "excess deaths" (above the five-year average) in the week ending 10 April.

Of those, 80% were directly related to coronavirus. Stripe said the ONS is carrying out a research project to establish what was responsible for the other 20%. They might be related to coronavirus or because people are not going to hospital for other illnesses.

Notably, the ONS’s figures for 10 April were 40% higher than the numbers that were officially announced by the government for coronavirus deaths. And the ONS figures were about 20% higher than the latest figures from NHS England.

[Aloha1]

I don't know what "relative testing" means to you. But I can reply to your misunderstanding of the Stanford study. (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf) Click if you want to read it yourself.

None of the tests were for the Wuhan virus That is not a medical term. The CDC has not ever produced a daily number. The numbers are produced by states individually and reported on media sources.

The Stanford study was NOT random. It was done in a county with the 4th highest number of COVID cases in California. They did not go out and randomly sample people for antibodies. Instead they placed an ad on Facebook to recruit people who volunteered to have their blood drawn for antibodies. Does this seem to be a good representation of the population, or maybe, just maybe, it would interest people who wanted to know if they'd been infected because of a mild illness or exposure where they couldn't get nasal swab tests done?

The study likely includes more positive people than a random sample would contain. The authors report that their volunteers were not representative of the county at large. It included far too many middle age white females. Of 3330 samples, only 50 were positive, a rate of 1.5% on a sample I believe tested higher than a random sample.

But there is more: The test kit being used is not FDA approved. The kit was tested for accuracy using known blood samples.


Sensitivity means it says positive if you are positive. So between 13 and 28% of people who are positive are mistakenly reported as negative. You are missing positives.
More importantly between 0.1 and 1.7% of negative are being mistakenly reported as positives.
If you test report 3330 tests, from 3 to 56 of your true negatives are being reported a positive. Guess how many positive tests they got.. 50. All of their positives could be false positives within the margin of error of the test. If you use the 99.5% specificity, then 16 of your positives are really negative, a full 1/3 wrong. Be very cautious when your finding is entirely in the margin of error.

And there's more to follow:
The Stanford test was for ANTIBODIES, not to determine positive or not . Are you saying that Dr. John Ioannidis of Stanford Med went on national TV and lied? However the data on Wuhan Virus cases is gathered, it is the CDC that is providing the aggregate numbers.

Did you bother to research a similar test conducted by USC in LA County that corrected some of the sample population criticisms from the Stanford Study ( over representation of white females)? That test had similar conclusions to the Stanford study. There are also serology tests being done internationally in the UK and Germany showing the same. Another test currently under way in Colorado will provide another reference point.

I have no patience with "politically correct" statements and prefer to use the standard nomenclature in effect before WHO changed it in 2015 so as "not to offend" anyone. The virus originated in Wuhan and therefore it IS the Wuhan Virus.

These studies give us HOPE that we may be a lot closer to herd immunity than currently thought. Throw all the cold water on that you want. I prefer optimism over negativism any day of the week.

[Aloha1]

Lastly, and thanks for your patience and persistence..
Your choice to mention the death rate
is so misleading. I believe the point you are making is that influenza has an estimated death rate of 0.1%, so if that is the "true death percentage" for COVID, it is no worse than seasonal flu.

Fail.
The calculation by the CDC of the fatality rate for influenza is complex. You can read about how they do it HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm) and HERE (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm). Please do so and return. I'll wait

Welcome back. As you learned the flu estimate is based on a calculation, a model, which has as its inputs many factors. How many people are presenting to hospitals and selected outpatient clinics with flu-like illness, how many people after the end of flu season report that had significant flu symptoms even if they did not go for medical care, how many excess deaths there are from diseases known to have flu be a possible trigger, such as death from pneumonia, and information about how often flu tests are being done and how often they are positive at selected hospitals.

The influenza illness death rate is not a count based on what is on a death certificate. It is a much much higher number based on a statistical process looking for any deaths that might be, perhaps for lack of a better term, flu adjacent. The estimate of how many people had the flu includes in its number a best guess of all those with flu, not just those seen in a hospital, or those with a positive flu test, but everyone who had a flu-like illness. This give a large number for the denominator, with estimated deaths as the numerator.

This is totally, completely, astronomically, amazingly, different than the way COVID is now being calculated. At this time, except in some places, only deaths where there is a proven positive test are being listed as COVID deaths. This is the case in Florida. If you have all the COVID symptoms but you didn't get tested, you are NOT a COVID death. This of course artificially keeps the numbers down. Things look better than they really are. And this is especially true if the COVID tests miss a significant number of people who are really positive. This is widely reported. Note that in the Stanford study they missed about 20% of known positive controls. If these had been real patients who died, the official records of that 20% would not have COVID as a cause of death.

This is not how flu deaths were calculated, see above. Flu rate of death is an estimate of how many people died with influenza even if they never knew that had flu divided by an estimate of every person who had influenza like illness over the entire flu season. . It might be interesting to do a community wide test for antibodies to a particular circulating strain of influenza to see how many minimally ill or symptom free people were actually infected. It is not typically done. But that is what the Stanford Study is trying to do. Don't you think the denominator on the flu death calculation would be so much higher if asymptomatic people were included. Yup.
And HERE (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586318/) is an article asking the same question as the Stanford study.. How different is the evidence from blood testing for flu from the patient report of a flu illness

And that is the asymptomatic people, not including the low symptomatic people. None of these asymptomatic people are captured in the CDC's estimate of the number of persons who had influenza. And they need not be for the purposes of what the CDC is following. The CDC is very clear that the usual 0.1 % death rate is for persons with influenza like illnesses, and does not included lesser illness or no illness. You are of course saying you'd like to include lesser and no illness in your calculation to prove COVID is just like influenza. It is not. You are in error.

FALSE. I made NO comparison with the flu. That comment related to Wuhan specifically and was taken directly from Dr. Ioannidis' interview. And again, the test was not for positives, it was for antibodies. I leave you to your statistical immersion therapy as it appears we are talking about two different things and neither of us will convince the other.

[graciegirl]

The Stanford test was for ANTIBODIES, not to determine positive or not . Are you saying that Dr. John Ioannidis of Stanford Med went on national TV and lied? However the data on Wuhan Virus cases is gathered, it is the CDC that is providing the aggregate numbers.

Did you bother to research a similar test conducted by USC in LA County that corrected some of the sample population criticisms from the Stanford Study ( over representation of white females)? That test had similar conclusions to the Stanford study. There are also serology tests being done internationally in the UK and Germany showing the same. Another test currently under way in Colorado will provide another reference point.

I have no patience with "politically correct" statements and prefer to use the standard nomenclature in effect before WHO changed it in 2015 so as "not to offend" anyone. The virus originated in Wuhan and therefore it IS the Wuhan Virus.

These studies give us HOPE that we may be a lot closer to herd immunity than currently thought. Throw all the cold water on that you want. I prefer optimism over negativism any day of the week.

Aloha. I am trying to keep all of this straight and I know Blueash to be a retired M.D. Are you a person who has also been involved in medicine? You sound very smart as well. I was a preschool teacher who has always been interested in medicine since our youngest was born with a syndrome. I just read posts and wonder at the person's background. I try very hard to sift through information and trust only valid sources. I keep wondering about Goodlife too. I hope he/she shares their medical background, if any.

[EnglishJW]

The virus has killed more than 1,800 Americans almost every day since April 7, and the official toll may be an undercount.

By comparison, heart disease typically kills 1,774 Americans a day, and cancer kills 1,641.

The virus in now spreading to the suburbs and rural areas.

Heart disease and cancer kill that number of people EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR. Are you really trying to say that the coronavirus will now be killing 1,800 every day?

[coffeebean]

I wish they'd eliminate the end-dates for everything. The answer to "when will these things re-open" should be "when the virus tapers off and/or a working vaccine is made available to the public."

And anyone who is not at *medical risk* who refuses to take the vaccine, would have to continue isolation/quarantine, until the virus is gone - whether for the season, or forever - whichever comes first.

Has it been confirmed that this virus is seasonal? I haven't heard that as of yet.

[Aloha1]

Aloha. I am trying to keep all of this straight and I know Blueash to be a retired M.D. Are you a person who has also been involved in medicine? You sound very smart as well. I was a preschool teacher who has always been interested in medicine since our youngest was born with a syndrome. I just read posts and wonder at the person's background. I try very hard to sift through information and trust only valid sources. I keep wondering about Goodlife too. I hope he/she shares their medical background, if any.
Although not an MD, I was on staff at the American College of Emergency Physicians and pre -med in College. My son and daughter in law are both physicians, he primary care and she emergency medicine.We talk almost daily regarding the virus. I am an avid reader and always strive to keep up with medical advances.

I am sure Blueash means well but there are times when you need to get back to the foundation of science, empiricism. Ignoring that which is in front of your eyes does not invalidate it. I am an optimist by nature and believe we are on the downside of this wave. The one thing we still lack is a solid handle on the denominator ,ie; how many out there have antibodies?. That will tell us the true infection rate and true death rate, neither of which we have now.

I had the Asian Flu in 1957, was in the hospital for a week. There was no vaccine then either. 70,000 Americans died and 2 million worldwide. We did not shut down the economy then.

My wife had the Hong Flu in 1968. Over 100,000 Americans died and 1 million worldwide according to the CDC. We did not shut the economy down then either. Both of these pandemics struck older Americans the hardest.

My point is, we are far from those numbers at this point and this may turn out to be a milder pandemic than first posited. This takes nothing away from the fact that many have died. Stay safe but also stay hopeful.