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Idaholady
06-03-2020, 09:55 AM
Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?

Stu from NYC
06-03-2020, 10:05 AM
We had considered it but several neighbors have it and the payback is on the side of it might be longer than we have to walk this planet.

retiredguy123
06-03-2020, 10:12 AM
Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?
In my opinion, it is a bad idea. It will not save you money on a life cycle basis because the payback period will probably be 15 years or longer. Also, it may increase the cost to replace the shingles on your roof. And, they may make it harder to sell your house because some people don't want them.

villagetinker
06-03-2020, 10:16 AM
There were several threads on this subject, the general opinion was fairly long payback, and do not get involved with any of the leasing options.

Toymeister
06-03-2020, 11:22 AM
I'm the poster that has a whole house electricity monitor, arguably with millions upon millions of data points on a designer, all electric home, the most informed about electricity consumption here.

I can say without a doubt solar panels do not make economic sense, under current prices and laws, for a couple in the Villages.

It is not that solar isn't noble or will Generate zero electric bills. It is how, when and how much solar is generated. You would generate more at solar noon than you consume, and sell to the utility at wholesale (approx 7 cents a kwh). But buy it at night or non peak hours at 11.7 cents (retail).

Stu from NYC
06-03-2020, 12:06 PM
I'm the poster that has a whole house electricity monitor, arguably with millions upon millions of data points on a designer, all electric home, the most informed about electricity consumption here.

I can say without a doubt solar panels do not make economic sense, under current prices and laws, for a couple in the Villages.

It is not that solar isn't noble or will Generate zero electric bills. It is how, when and how much solar is generated. You would generate more at solar noon than you consume, and sell to the utility at wholesale (approx 7 cents a kwh). But buy it at night or non peak hours at 11.7 cents (retail).

When we were looking to purchase a house very end of last year met a fellow who had solar panels and claimed he was breaking even on electricity.

He did say he got a great deal in purchasing the panels.

Any chance he was on the level?

rjm1cc
06-03-2020, 01:04 PM
The panels can supply all your electric if you install enough panels, lets say 33. For Duke you generate power in the day and send the excess to Duke and they nicely return it to you at night at no charge. At the end of the year (Dec.) if you have excess power they pay you at I think the whole sale rate (very low rate). You start all over in Jan so you could have a small bill that month, but again it depends on the number of panels and how much sun you get for the month. Duke also charges you about $10 a month but this can be paid from the electric you use. (Note when Duke's power goes out your panels stop producing for safety reasons.)

Payback is long and if you are doing this just to make money you probably wan to forget it.

One way to look at it is what you can earn on the money you would spend on solar if you put the money in the bank and used the interest to pay your electric bill. Remember to add in taxes on the interest income. You will have to estimate rising electric rates. Lets say after tax rebates the system cost you 20,000 (probably a little higher) and supplies 100% of your electric. Lets say you spend 1200 a year now on electric. That means your 20,000 has to earn about 6% plus maybe 0.25% to cover taxes. You won't do that in a save investment. Thus you could look at investing 20,000 in solar and you never get it back (but you had no electric bills) vs say putting 60,000 in a 2% bond and leaving the bond in your estate. Its your choice. By the way if you assume a 20 year life for the panels and the 1200 per year does not increase you saved 24,000 in electric bills. This is just a way you might look at return and naturally you have to put real life numbers into your analysis. I would also add an estimate for removal and replacement when you put a new roof on and you may have some maintenance expense.

gogond
06-03-2020, 01:17 PM
I’m not totally up to date on Florida state laws pertaining to solar but I do know they are anti solar. Gotta protect those fossil fuel companies. To much pay back to politians. One gentleman suggested that you pay $1200 a year in electric bills. I find $100 a month hard to believe. I live in Hawaii. Here the state is very pro solar I guess being we have the highest electric rates in the country. With that being said we put solar on our house. 18 panels cost just about $18,000. The state gave us $5,000 and the federal $7500. So the panels cost us just about $6,000. My electric bills are now $10 a month. And that’s an all electric house.

retiredguy123
06-03-2020, 01:52 PM
I’m not totally up to date on Florida state laws pertaining to solar but I do know they are anti solar. Gotta protect those fossil fuel companies. To much pay back to politians. One gentleman suggested that you pay $1200 a year in electric bills. I find $100 a month hard to believe. I live in Hawaii. Here the state is very pro solar I guess being we have the highest electric rates in the country. With that being said we put solar on our house. 18 panels cost just about $18,000. The state gave us $5,000 and the federal $7500. So the panels cost us just about $6,000. My electric bills are now $10 a month. And that’s an all electric house.
My electric bill last month was $78, and about $1100 for the past year. Hawaii may have given you $5000, but I think that was a tax credit. Since Florida doesn't have an income tax, there would be no benefit to a tax credit. The current Federal tax credit is 26 percent, but in 2022, it will be zero. When solar contractors and independent solar panel proponents calculate the payback period for solar panels, they assume that the initial cost to buy the system has no investment value. So, essentially, if you save $20,000 but not installing a solar system, they assume that you will put that money under your mattress for 20 years or so.

Toymeister
06-03-2020, 02:08 PM
I’m not totally up to date on Florida state laws pertaining to solar but I do know they are anti solar. Gotta protect those fossil fuel companies. To much pay back to politians. One gentleman suggested that you pay $1200 a year in electric bills. I find $100 a month hard to believe. I live in Hawaii. Here the state is very pro solar I guess being we have the highest electric rates in the country. With that being said we put solar on our house. 18 panels cost just about $18,000. The state gave us $5,000 and the federal $7500. So the panels cost us just about $6,000. My electric bills are now $10 a month. And that’s an all electric house.
In a few words this isn't Hawaii. Electricity is 65 to 75% less, there are no state incentives. There is not the solar competition here that Hawaii has

This is but one example why you can leave what you know from your home state behind. It is not New Jersey either.

Windguy
06-03-2020, 02:49 PM
I’m not totally up to date on Florida state laws pertaining to solar but I do know they are anti solar. Gotta protect those fossil fuel companies. To much pay back to politians.
Having worked at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for 35 years, I am very pro solar and wind. However, I have done nothing here because the laws here truly are pro fossil fuels. When I need a new roof, I may get solar roof tiles and a battery if the prices continue to drop as they have been. Just because something is not economical today doesn't mean it won't be in our lifetimes.

Think about the fact that the utility unfairly pays you wholesale prices for your excess. Well, you might think, a power plant gets wholesale. What's the difference? Well, the energy from the power plant must go through an expensive distribution system to get to your house and there are losses along the way. If you generate excess electricity, it goes to your next door neighbor and costs the utility nothing. That doesn't seem fair to me. Also, when you are generating excess energy, it's during the heat of the day (sunny!) when demand is high. The utility should pay you more to sell during peak usage than at other times.

If you have an electric car, you should charge it at night when demand is low and pay low rates. If your car holds more than you will use in a day, you could partially discharge your battery into the grid at peak times and sell it at premium prices. You could make money that way. Tesla supposedly has written the software to do it, but has not yet enabled it.

But, the fossil-fuel industry doesn't want this to happen and they exert great pressure on politicians to keep it that way.

Toymeister
06-03-2020, 05:03 PM
I would also toss out this friendly notice not to take general statements like my bill is Xx.Xx as a representative bill unless you get a true base line, like My bill is Xx.xx, I like keeping my A/C at 78 degrees, I am single, and my home is 1100 sq ft.

photo1902
06-03-2020, 05:57 PM
It’d be nice to hear from people who live here that actually have PV panels installed, and get their feedback and opinions. Data points, speculation and hearsay are all wonderful, but let’s hear from some actual owners/users.

biker1
06-03-2020, 06:13 PM
I gave a talk at NREL about 15 years ago. What a great facility and great location. I enjoyed my interaction with the fine people working there.


Having worked at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for 35 years, I am very pro solar and wind. However, I have done nothing here because the laws here truly are pro fossil fuels. When I need a new roof, I may get solar roof tiles and a battery if the prices continue to drop as they have been. Just because something is not economical today doesn't mean it won't be in our lifetimes.

Think about the fact that the utility unfairly pays you wholesale prices for your excess. Well, you might think, a power plant gets wholesale. What's the difference? Well, the energy from the power plant must go through an expensive distribution system to get to your house and there are losses along the way. If you generate excess electricity, it goes to your next door neighbor and costs the utility nothing. That doesn't seem fair to me. Also, when you are generating excess energy, it's during the heat of the day (sunny!) when demand is high. The utility should pay you more to sell during peak usage than at other times.

If you have an electric car, you should charge it at night when demand is low and pay low rates. If your car holds more than you will use in a day, you could partially discharge your battery into the grid at peak times and sell it at premium prices. You could make money that way. Tesla supposedly has written the software to do it, but has not yet enabled it.

But, the fossil-fuel industry doesn't want this to happen and they exert great pressure on politicians to keep it that way.

villagetinker
06-03-2020, 07:28 PM
Having worked at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for 35 years, I am very pro solar and wind. However, I have done nothing here because the laws here truly are pro fossil fuels. When I need a new roof, I may get solar roof tiles and a battery if the prices continue to drop as they have been. Just because something is not economical today doesn't mean it won't be in our lifetimes.

Think about the fact that the utility unfairly pays you wholesale prices for your excess. Well, you might think, a power plant gets wholesale. What's the difference? Well, the energy from the power plant must go through an expensive distribution system to get to your house and there are losses along the way. If you generate excess electricity, it goes to your next door neighbor and costs the utility nothing. That doesn't seem fair to me. Also, when you are generating excess energy, it's during the heat of the day (sunny!) when demand is high. The utility should pay you more to sell during peak usage than at other times.

If you have an electric car, you should charge it at night when demand is low and pay low rates. If your car holds more than you will use in a day, you could partially discharge your battery into the grid at peak times and sell it at premium prices. You could make money that way. Tesla supposedly has written the software to do it, but has not yet enabled it.

But, the fossil-fuel industry doesn't want this to happen and they exert great pressure on politicians to keep it that way.

I have worked in the parallel Generation area from the utility side, and directly with many people from NREL, the points above are very valid, Florida is NOT solar friendly. I helped write the standards that are used for this equipment. I came from PA which is a deregulated state, and is much more solar friendly.

Also as noted above do NOT trust any salesmans pitch about solar. If you cannot make your own independent analysis of the overall costs, call your financial advisor (or someone you trust) to help with an independent review of the actual costs. All of my analysis indicates a 20+ year payback if I buy the panels myself, and no payback for leased arrangements.

Make sure you include the annual maintenance costs (occasional cleaning), repairs, removal for roof replacement (roof 15 to 20 years, solar 25 years+), battery replacements if you go that route, inverter failures, etc.

biker1
06-03-2020, 07:44 PM
I have run the numbers a couple of times and most recently came up with a payback period of about 10 years. The problem is solar panels are still experiencing deflation plus the lost opportunity costs of the money makes it a hard sell. If your decision is not driven by finances then you should go for it.

Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?

Idaholady
06-04-2020, 12:13 AM
Wow! Thanks to all of you. Your answers were terrific and most informative! I think you talked me out of it but I’m certainly more informed than I was before this discussion.

DAIII
06-04-2020, 04:58 AM
Greetings,

I have recently (late 2019) installed solar in my 2 bed patio villa. (Tesla) which did an amazing job out of Orlando. my home mostly natural gas (AC, Fridge, Spa * on electric) so I needed a smaller system 14 panels and a battery. - fabulous! I suggest do your own research and you can start at Tesla's Website-
*Tesla Vehicle , Lithium Cart and bikes (included) essentially living on the sun.
The Tesla system is far superior to the rest (read below) and has an automatic switch- meaning off grid within a nano second you're moved to battery (power loss is a thing of the past)

In my northern home* Tesla doesn't service this far north and I have a 29 panel SUNPOWER system with SONNEN battery 2018 (same home design, larger but mostly natural gas) it sheds winter snow like a metal roof- FUN! The Sunpower system has a mechanical switch so when the power goes out it's a 2 minute switch (automatic still but dated tech) *was featured in green energy magazine

Both systems have tempered glass panels (no plastics) and massive 20-25 yr warranty

It works great for a snow bird, as both homes make power 12 months and I'm using each home for 6 months. The system builds credits and yes - no bill or small 'connection' 10 fee monthly.

# 1 I did it to be more self sufficient (off grid)
# 2 The northern states can lose power for weeks in a brutal ice storm (a generator needs to be ON to power a single device- solar battery only needs the sun to rise)
# 3 The cost was third to me..money in the bank isn't going to help with staying warm on day 12 of power loss at -20 degree temps. The fire department distributing flyers of open shelters was enough for me to think solar/battery. :MOJE_whot:

Tomptomp
06-04-2020, 06:15 AM
I have nine panels on my roof and it has reduced my bill about 40%.

stadry
06-04-2020, 06:22 AM
it appears that, given the avg age of residents, the objective decision would be $ driven therefore its not worth it - subjective decision is feel good
i'm unclear about fl being 'solar friendly' - does that mean tax credits ? if so, then those who refrain from solar would be, in effect, subsidizing those who engage - much as the tesla - who pays for free charging stations in various mall parking lots ? all shoppers pay

RRman77 retired
06-04-2020, 06:31 AM
My Wife and I used to live in TV. We checked out a location close to TV, called Green Keys. All of their homes are totally powered by solar panels.
Go out and talk to owners, they will probably share information with you.
Good luck in your search for information!

photo1902
06-04-2020, 06:36 AM
it appears that, given the avg age of residents, the objective decision would be $ driven therefore its not worth it - subjective decision is feel good
i'm unclear about fl being 'solar friendly' - does that mean tax credits ? if so, then those who refrain from solar would be, in effect, subsidizing those who engage - much as the tesla - who pays for free charging stations in various mall parking lots ? all shoppers pay

Which car charging stations have you seen that are free? Most of the ones I've seen require credit card or a debit type of card to use.

biker1
06-04-2020, 06:40 AM
Tesla superchargers are no cost for many Model S and Model X owners. The policy has morphed several times over the past several years. They recently announced they are eliminating free supercharging for new Model S and Model X customers. Model 3 and Model Y owners pay for supercharging but may have received some free supercharging for referrals. Their rates are about 2x normal electric rates in FL.

Which car charging stations have you seen that are free? Most of the ones I've seen require credit card or a debit type of card to use.

sweethomeru
06-04-2020, 06:43 AM
Hi, I moved to TV last year and installed a new solar system in November. I'd be glad to give you a tour and answer any questions you may have.
The bottom line is that my payback will be approximately 10 years. Some people think that is too long and everything is about a quick payback. I heartily disagree.
I power my home, my pool, my car and even my golf cart with the energy of the sun.
One person can't change the path we're on, but I'm doing my part and that's what we can do.

Feel free to message me and thank you for asking the question

Tomptomp
06-04-2020, 07:01 AM
I have nine panels on my roof in the villages. My bill averaged about $35/mo for the last four months. My house is 1880 sq. I keep the A/C at 75*. I have a gas stove and gas heat. Electric dryer and oven. My savings is about 40%.
Do the math.

MandoMan
06-04-2020, 07:14 AM
Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?

While solar panels may not pay off for you, one thing that WILL pay off, if you haven’t done it yet, is to replace your light bulbs with LEDs, especially if you have lights you leave on for hours per day. You can your lighting cost up to 90%. The LED might cost you a couple hundred for the entire house, but you will make that up in a year, probably. Get the color balance that is right for you. I usually get warmer lights. Get dimmer LEDs if the light is on a dimmer switch. Get three-way LEDs if your light use three-way bulbs. Get natural sunlight LEDs for your garage, as the light is more accurate. If you use those for your bathroom, though, you might feel that you have suddenly aged.

mk1126
06-04-2020, 07:29 AM
We here in Pine Hills checked out Solar last year. Would make sense in the long run , but as many have said - Florida is still in tune with 'fossil fuel' industry. You also need a symbiotic relationship with your 'local' electric provider; that wasn't possible with City of Leesburg. Maybe the whole development south of Rte 44 could have been set up solar after having discussions with standard electric providers. Lot of states are doing it.

unclbuck
06-04-2020, 07:37 AM
I had solar panels installed in 2015. Added panels in 2016. I have 39 panels. I have service from SECO energy in Sumter County. My bills pre-2015 were in the $100 to $250 range across the year. Current monthly runs around $30 to 55. My system makes around 12.9 Mwh per year. Call Jack’s Solar of Ustis for current costs. You can do the math from there to figure if it’s right for you. Saves around 8 tons of Co2 per yr. SMA of Germany/USA makes the equipment and supplies the computer interface. They have great customer help. If your interested let me know for further info.

BeauJangles
06-04-2020, 07:50 AM
In my opinion, it is a bad idea. It will not save you money on a life cycle basis because the payback period will probably be 15 years or longer. Also, it may increase the cost to replace the shingles on your roof. And, they may make it harder to sell your house because some people don't want them.

Also, when you get a new roof, you have to pay to have them removed and then reinstalled.

DAIII
06-04-2020, 07:56 AM
Also, when you get a new roof, you have to pay to have them removed and then reinstalled.

The shingles under the panels never need replaced. (UV kills shingles) the solar array protects from UV , thus you need to only feather the new shingles around the array.

wmc1000
06-04-2020, 07:57 AM
We live in Indiana and for us it is simply an investment in being prepared and semi self-sufficient. Yes, power outages are relatively infrequent but could be worse.

With a large farm population near us and a personal garden we can survive a food apocalypse in the short term but in a major emergency if there was a power apocalypse only those with solar and battery storage have a backup plan in place.

We are not preppers, just retired and trying to avoid a disruption to our regular day to day lives.

biker1
06-04-2020, 07:59 AM
Also, don't forget the bulbs in your lamp post if it is on a light sensor so it burns all night. A surprisingly large amount of power is consumed if they are incandescent bulbs.

While solar panels may not pay off for you, one thing that WILL pay off, if you haven’t done it yet, is to replace your light bulbs with LEDs, especially if you have lights you leave on for hours per day. You can your lighting cost up to 90%. The LED might cost you a couple hundred for the entire house, but you will make that up in a year, probably. Get the color balance that is right for you. I usually get warmer lights. Get dimmer LEDs if the light is on a dimmer switch. Get three-way LEDs if your light use three-way bulbs. Get natural sunlight LEDs for your garage, as the light is more accurate. If you use those for your bathroom, though, you might feel that you have suddenly aged.

rphil11ort
06-04-2020, 08:10 AM
I had them on my vacation home in NY. they were great but we bought them direct and had them installed by relatives. it was a lot less expensive. there where 2 options in NY purchase outright and lease. DO NOT LEASE

bmarasco
06-04-2020, 08:40 AM
I have found that the benefits analysis from a couple of solar vendor, to be pretty accurate ... if the cost of say 30 panels, as was suggested, was $6000 - I do it in a heartbeat !! ... unfortunately it is not !!

oneclickplus
06-04-2020, 08:45 AM
Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?

Personal experience:
Don't waste your time or money. Payback (if any) is miserably slow. There is not enough real estate on your roof to generate the power you need. Those with a small farm that can dedicate several acres to solar panels might have better results. Also, something not well publicized by solar companies ... the panels degrade over time and the voltage output drops precipitously. In 20 years, they are trash for the landfill. If you do decide to put them on your roof, get it in writing that the solar company will remove them (and reinstall them) at no cost should you need a roof replacement down the road. That is another surprise cost to some people.

Had a neighbor who invested $23,000 in solar panels while drooling over the idea of his electric meter running backwards (per the sales guy). He generated less than $25/month of electricity. That's a negative payback. Ignoring interest, it would take 76 years to get his money back. Solar panels don't last that long. The interest on his loan cost more than he saved resulting in a net monthly loss.

I think you're better off attaching small generators to couple million gerbil and hamster cages and just let them go at it.

Solar water heaters for you pool are a different technology. Don't confuse them. Solar panels that generate electricity are what we're discussing here.

Jimbo120
06-04-2020, 08:46 AM
I have solar panels and am happy with them. Don't really want to spend time arguing with those that do not but feel free to Private Message me to discuss the details.There are many pros and cons and you have to look at your situation.

ProfessorDave
06-04-2020, 08:46 AM
Solar sounds great; reality has not been very good. Graveyard of companies in the business - especially for residential use. A few reasons why: a) animals (squirrels, birds, etc.) get in underneath the panels and cause issues, b) they often result in a leaky roof - and have to be totally torn off to replace the roof - very expensive, c) challenges when extreme wind. The ONLY system I'm aware of from friends that remain in the business is from GAF. The reason is that the solar panels ARE THE ROOF TOO -- so they don't experience the issues most all other systems have. Hope that helps.

Jimbo120
06-04-2020, 08:48 AM
Personal experience:
Don't waste your time or money. Payback (if any) is miserably slow. There is not enough real estate on your roof to generate the power you need. Those with a small farm that can dedicate several acres to solar panels might have better results. Also, something not well publicized by solar companies ... the panels degrade over time and the voltage output drops precipitously. In 20 years, they are trash for the landfill. If you do decide to put them on your roof, get it in writing that the solar company will remove them (and reinstall them) at no cost should you need a roof replacement down the road. That is another surprise cost to some people.

Had a neighbor who invested $23,000 in solar panels while drooling over the idea of his electric meter running backwards (per the sales guy). He generated less than $25/month of electricity. That's a negative payback. Ignoring interest, it would take 76 years to get his money back. Solar panels don't last that long. The interest on his loan cost more than he saved resulting in a net monthly loss.

I think you're better off attaching small generators to couple million gerbil and hamster cages and just let them go at it.

Solar water heaters for you pool are a different technology. Don't confuse them. Solar panels that generate electricity are what we're discussing here.

There are too many errors in this post to ignore, everything depends on your situation.

joseppe
06-04-2020, 09:14 AM
Does anyone know anything about solar panels? Good idea? Bad idea? Would they blow away in a hurricane? Do they really save on electric bills?

We had solar on a house in California. It was 'net metering' and was on a lease/purchase plan. Cost nothing to install and we were charged based on monthly production of the panels. I believe we paid .18 per kwh and CA utilities were on a tier system with lowest of .16 per kwh quickly jumping to .25 per kwh and then .31 per kwh. We found the system did save money every month. Total monthly went from about $250 to about $220. Hardley worth it. Florida's rates are somwhere aroud .12 per kwh which makes solar of this type not worth it here.

We also had a lot of trouble when we went to sell that property because of the solar.

I would not do solar again unless it was the only option I had.

sloanst
06-04-2020, 09:17 AM
From what I understand, it would take 20 to 25 years for them to pay for themselves. There is a lot of information on the web but it will take some work with a spreadsheet to make sense of it all. To start, consult you electric bill to find you max usage.

aallbrand
06-04-2020, 09:36 AM
bad idea you will be dead 10 years before breaking even Don't fall for the solar scam

PugMom
06-04-2020, 09:37 AM
Having worked at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory for 35 years, I am very pro solar and wind. However, I have done nothing here because the laws here truly are pro fossil fuels. When I need a new roof, I may get solar roof tiles and a battery if the prices continue to drop as they have been. Just because something is not economical today doesn't mean it won't be in our lifetimes.

Think about the fact that the utility unfairly pays you wholesale prices for your excess. Well, you might think, a power plant gets wholesale. What's the difference? Well, the energy from the power plant must go through an expensive distribution system to get to your house and there are losses along the way. If you generate excess electricity, it goes to your next door neighbor and costs the utility nothing. That doesn't seem fair to me. Also, when you are generating excess energy, it's during the heat of the day (sunny!) when demand is high. The utility should pay you more to sell during peak usage than at other times.

If you have an electric car, you should charge it at night when demand is low and pay low rates. If your car holds more than you will use in a day, you could partially discharge your battery into the grid at peak times and sell it at premium prices. You could make money that way. Tesla supposedly has written the software to do it, but has not yet enabled it.

But, the fossil-fuel industry doesn't want this to happen and they exert great pressure on politicians to keep it that way.

just a quick reminder here: we need evil coal to produce electricity--it's incredible how many people DONT know that.

fheller45
06-04-2020, 10:25 AM
We had considered it but several neighbors have it and the payback is on the side of it might be longer than we have to walk this planet.

Fortunately SECO is working with Solar providers to give us solar sourced electricity, which will be a win-win for us. The more alternative sources like solar and wind are used, the cheaper it will become and the less will be
strain on the supply of fossil fuel sources.

dawnrizo
06-04-2020, 10:43 AM
I believe anything that requires drilling holes on top of your roof allows for potential leaks. Best not to risk it. Electricity is not expensive in TV's.

pcovella
06-04-2020, 12:35 PM
I live in TV and installed PV solar panels a little over a year ago. In the first year of operation, my 11.7KW system produced 17,673KWH of electricity. That electricity was worth 9.9cents/KWH or $1750. My system is returning an 8% IRR assuming steady utility rates, 20 year life, and no salvage value. In order to get that kind of return, two things are required: (1) the panels must face south, (2) you will have to work very hard to find an installer to do the job at a price that gives that kind of return. Specifically, you will need a price of under $2/watt installed before tax credits.

retiredguy123
06-04-2020, 01:46 PM
I live in TV and installed PV solar panels a little over a year ago. In the first year of operation, my 11.7KW system produced 17,673KWH of electricity. That electricity was worth 9.9cents/KWH or $1750. My system is returning an 8% IRR assuming steady utility rates, 20 year life, and no salvage value. In order to get that kind of return, two things are required: (1) the panels must face south, (2) you will have to work very hard to find an installer to do the job at a price that gives that kind of return. Specifically, you will need a price of under $2/watt installed before tax credits.
It looks like you didn't discount the rate of return for the investment value of the initial $20,000+ cost for the system. I would have used a conservative return of about 4 percent, which would cut your rate of return about in half. I have found that most payback calculations done by contractors and even by independent organizations do not include the potential investment value of the system cost. So, $20,000 invested in a solar system today will be worth zero in 20 years. But, $20,000 invested at a rate of return of 4 percent will be worth about $44,000 in 20 years.

Ss6247
06-04-2020, 01:47 PM
Well, As someone that DID get solar, I am highly satisfied! I had 38 panels installed that will last at least 20 years...well at least the warranty is 20 years. They have already been thru hurricane Irma with no damage. My payback will be pretty quick because I took advantage of the federal program and received $10,000 dollars back on my tax refund when I filed. I thought it was just going to be a tax CREDIT, but I actually got the whole amount refunded to me. My payback comes out to 8.4 years before I break even. I have no electric bills, $0.00 from April thru November and roughly $35.00 bills for December, Jan, Feb and March. Duke holds my excess energy generated in the summer for use when the days are shorter in the winter time. I can monitor my usage daily from an app and see if there are any issues with any panel. If you are elderly, like my mother, I recommended that she NOT get solar because she may not live long enough for the payback. Also, I installed mine on a brand new 40 year roof so I checked all the boxes. Don’t install panels on an older roof, you’re asking for trouble. These are just my opinions. I love having little to no electric bills!

Fenster
06-04-2020, 03:02 PM
I'm the poster that has a whole house electricity monitor, arguably with millions upon millions of data points on a designer, all electric home, the most informed about electricity consumption here.

I can say without a doubt solar panels do not make economic sense, under current prices and laws, for a couple in the Villages.

It is not that solar isn't noble or will Generate zero electric bills. It is how, when and how much solar is generated. You would generate more at solar noon than you consume, and sell to the utility at wholesale (approx 7 cents a kwh). But buy it at night or non peak hours at 11.7 cents (retail).

Thanks for your answer.

Im interested to know if a heated pool changes the math enough to make it worth the investment.

CS1987
06-04-2020, 03:18 PM
Has anyone installed a passive solar hot water heater? Since hot water can be 30 to 40% of an electric bill that seems like an inexpensive way to save $$$

charolais
06-04-2020, 07:52 PM
I have Tesla solar panels and two Tesla storage batteries installed on my home. The home is fully powered as well as my two Tesla vehicles. I receive a credit for the power that is put back in he line from SECO.
The Tesla system is a SMART system, I can control it with my smart phone. It is also monitored by Tesla. When a storm is approaching it will store energy in the batteries, so power is available if needed. I have spoken to native Floridan's who were without power for 10 days during hurricanes, it was not a pleasant experience.
A tax CREDIT is currently available, and it will reduce the cost of the by close to one-third.

Toymeister
06-04-2020, 09:19 PM
Thanks for your answer.

Im interested to know if a heated pool changes the math enough to make it worth the investment.
Perhaps, the reason is the pool heater, which I presume is a heat pump, would send your incremental use into the penalty rate of 13.7 per kwh, vice 11.7. further you could schedule the pool heating during prime solar generation hours. Meaning you are using solar solely to heat your pool. The penalty rate is above 1,000 kwh for SECO customers.

I can't say for a fact, though, as I have gas for pool heating.

The overall idea is to use the heavy consumption electric appliances during solar hours, dry clothes, charge the car, super cool the house.

doctorknow
06-05-2020, 11:24 AM
It’d be nice to hear from people who live here that actually have PV panels installed, and get their feedback and opinions. Data points, speculation and hearsay are all wonderful, but let’s hear from some actual owners/users.

I have two 40 watt solar panels that are NOT attached to the roof. I have them in my backyard. They are portable and can be moved during windstorm or hurricane. They generate power into a battery pack on my lanai. I can power my refrigerator and even a second refrigerator during a black out. However, it is convenient not to have to worry about a thawing freezer during a blackout it is an expensive folly.

Debelg
06-06-2020, 08:04 AM
This topic has been debated several times before , there are valid reasons not to do it such as your age , the age of the roof ,your personal decision as far as helping out saving the planet (coal is bad) it is certainly not an investment and I don't think that anyone would buy it as an investment but it will pay you back don't believe for a minute that it will take 20 years . I have a 2200sq ft home have a 15x30 inground pool with heat pump (wife likes the water at 85 all the time ) I just had a system installed in December 34 Panels 11.05kWp I was of course happy to receive 30% back from my fellow taxpayers (thank you ) so far I just have to pay my 10 dollar connecting fee to Duke Energy The installer estimated my system to be paid back in 8.5 years I am very satisfied todays equipment comes with 25 years of warranty on Equipment ,Performance and installation could I have used this money and invested it …….. sure but I already have a lot of money invested therefor this argument does not apply to me ...just my personal opinion

retiredguy123
06-06-2020, 09:13 AM
Several people who have solar systems have said that they have a 20 or 25 year warranty. Is that a full warranty for parts and labor? I don't know any company who sells mechanical/electrical equipment who can provide a warranty anywhere close to that. I would be very skeptical that a solar contractor really intends to honor their warranty, or that they will even be in business in 20 years. It sounds too good to be true.

pcovella
06-06-2020, 09:33 AM
It looks like you didn't discount the rate of return for the investment value of the initial $20,000+ cost for the system. I would have used a conservative return of about 4 percent, which would cut your rate of return about in half. I have found that most payback calculations done by contractors and even by independent organizations do not include the potential investment value of the system cost. So, $20,000 invested in a solar system today will be worth zero in 20 years. But, $20,000 invested at a rate of return of 4 percent will be worth about $44,000 in 20 years.

Suggest you read up on IRR. An 8% IRR means that all cash flows are discounted by 8% to result in a NPV of zero. In other words, If I were to calculate the NPV using 4%, the result would have been a positive number. Or in this case, If were to place the initial investment in an 8% tax free investment and take out $1750 per year, it would last 20 years. Maybe you are saying that my 8% return is 4% better than if I invested in an instrument that yielded 4%. You are correct. You are also correct that the potential investment value in the initial investment is not included in the payback calculation. I did not mention a payback period in my post. I'm not a fan of payback period when doing financial calculations. I prefer IRR.

retiredguy123
06-06-2020, 09:56 AM
Suggest you read up on IRR. An 8% IRR means that all cash flows are discounted by 8% to result in a NPV of zero. In other words, If I were to calculate the NPV using 4%, the result would have been a positive number. Or in this case, If were to place the initial investment in an 8% tax free investment and take out $1750 per year, it would last 20 years. Maybe you are saying that my 8% return is 4% better than if I invested in an instrument that yielded 4%. You are correct. You are also correct that the potential investment value in the initial investment is not included in the payback calculation. I did not mention a payback period in my post. I'm not a fan of payback period when doing financial calculations. I prefer IRR.
All I am saying is that the potential investment value of the initial cost of the system is very important, but it is almost never included in any financial calculations by those who promote solar systems. If I were to invest $20,000 at a rate of 4 percent for 20 years, I would have more than enough money to pay all of my electric bills for the 20 year period.

pcovella
06-06-2020, 10:30 AM
All I am saying is that the potential investment value of the initial cost of the system is very important, but it is almost never included in any financial calculations by those who promote solar systems. If I were to invest $20,000 at a rate of 4 percent for 20 years, I would have more than enough money to pay all of my electric bills for the 20 year period.

A $20,000 investment in a 4% annuity pays $1,472/year for 20 years. Is your electricity bill lower than $1,472/year? Also, $1,472 is less than the $1750 of electricity I produced.

rjm1cc
06-06-2020, 03:54 PM
Duke gives you back what ever you give them. They do not buy at a low price in the day and charge a high price at night. At the end of the calendar they pay you for any excess you gave them at a very low rate.

retiredguy123
06-06-2020, 04:29 PM
A $20,000 investment in a 4% annuity pays $1,472/year for 20 years. Is your electricity bill lower than $1,472/year? Also, $1,472 is less than the $1750 of electricity I produced.
Yes. My electric bill is about $1100 per year for an all electric house. But, it is a small courtyard villa.

CoachKandSportsguy
06-07-2020, 07:48 AM
Good morning, as the debater of concepts with some experience and some expertise, currently working at an electric and gas utility company in finance, doing some regulatory reporting, doing some investment analysis, assisting in rate setting requests:

Observation: always interesting to read who uses a financial reason, who uses a faulty financial reason, and who uses an emotional or generalized reason as their valid point of view. Therefore, as a finance professional supporting or blowing up investment requests, not everyone should financialize their decisions about investing in solar power. There are good non financial reasons to invest in solar power. If you want to invest in them, please by all means do so.
But as in most individual decisions, there is a consequence of many individual decisions which most individuals can't see now, or in the future. So, please beware of unintended consequences of the progress of solar power, which I will explain the concept.
Utility economics:
First, current utility industry is broken down between generation systems, transmission systems, and distribution systems. Generation systems and transmission systems are regulated by FERC, which means the federal government. Retail generation and Distribution systems are regulated by the state department of utilities, different names in different states. By US governmental statute, utility companies are guaranteed a profit rate of return. The utility company applied to the state for the rate structure to charge its customers. The state government approves the rate structure. If the state government doesn't approve a rate structure, the utility has the right to sue in court and the judge will decide the rate structure. If the request is documented well enough and falls within the statutes, the judge can overrule the state regulatory body. likewise the state can pass legislation to force a utility to do something, like accept retail generation, which can bankrupt a utility. True story: State of New York required Niagra Mohawk to accept generation from alternate utilities, which increased their cost of supply above break even, and bankrupted them in the late 1990s. google it if you want, my source is one of the finance controllers who was there. So regulators control the system pricing, whether you like it, agree with it, or not.
So, how does this effect you? first, the initial distribution system was not built for two way electric flow. The unintended consequence is that a different electric usage and monitoring system has to be developed, and then installed, and then monitored for billing. This new system took time to design, develop, install and use. Yes, there was and still is a cost which is recovered with your current distribution rates. And in older systems, the 1950s mechanical switching systems are breaking with the quick reversing between generations flows and sun covering the solar panels. More investments, which the utility company is guaranteed a rate of return, remember from above? so again more background on your now backup system price structure Also, there is a control structure to energy flows, as there is no place to store/put in inventory, electricity for future use, at scale. (home batteries are not the point, FPL system storage is the concept) so the control structure is designed to keep stable system amount available at all times. That control structure now has to include the new uncontrollable incoming generation from your panels. That is a very large investment and task as solar comes on line, as the weather is not stable so neither is your generator to the big system. More investment and technical expertise needed, therefore more increase to your now traditional electric system, or your backup system.
So, the punch line: as more solar comes on line from retail sources, the less traditional energy will be consumed. Given that the distribution system to your house has a very large maintenance cost, million of miles of wires, millions of poles, thousands of transformers, millions of meters, usage collection systems, thousands of remote cell phone monitoring devices, etc, to cover those required costs to your backup system, with a guaranteed rate of return in order to guarantee 24x7 availability, traditional electricity costs will continue to increase, in a non linear, exponential way. As the percentage of customers with solar increases, a smaller traditional base (denominator) usage will have to cover the cost of the backup system, to be available at night, or during storms.
So unless you go off the grid 100% you are slowly for now, raising rates to everyone else, which includes all your grocery stores, retail stores, government offices, public lighting, etc. But the other point is that your current net metering agreement is subject to review and rate adjustments by the governmental regulators. With that uncertainty, you probably didn’t model those real long term changes into your somewhat flawed NPV or IRR model. (For the technical financial types, NPV is primarly a bond pricing model, with stable and predictable cash flows. IRR is better for a variable cash flow models, but still has a weakness of not separating out the different rates of investment return versus financing rates. Therefore, proper detailed financial model should use the MIRR formula to give a more correct answer. But that is the least of the return analysis)
If for any unforeseen reason that solar panels degrade and become a fire hazard, your insurance rates will increase, which may wipe out all the savings, and tesla panels have had lawsuits for roof fires.
The risk of solar investment return is that the current rates, both generation (wholesale) and usage, (retail) are stable. But that is not a guarantee, and with the potential for your usage rates to rise faster than inflation in order to maintain your backup traditional system, and your wholesale price to not go lower, your entire model is based upon the current spread between wholesale and retail pricing and your percentage of backup usage. With regulators being able to change that on a whim, or as a result of an unforeseen event, the societal impact of increasing solar is higher traditional energy prices for everyone.
So in reality your model is only good for about 5 years max. other than fed bond models with guaranteed cash flows, most commercial investment models good for 5 years. The world changes very fast, the cash flows are very uncertain with weather patterns, and cost and price subject to government changes. The best societal solar investment is in large solar farms which have critical mass, which feeds the system through a single entry point for control and monitoring the system, but will not eliminate your backup system cost, and the cost of maintaining the distribution system, unless you go complete off. . .
Which is why, if you want to invest in solar, go for it, but from a purely investment point of view, the investment is very, very difficult to predict and guarantee any payback or investment return to make financial types comfortable with a reasonable return. But please don’t think that your current year savings is the only point for evaluation for the next 10-20 years. . .

Sportsguy

retiredguy123
06-07-2020, 08:42 AM
My issue with solar panels in The Villages is that the solar contractors all advertise that their system will save you money on electricity. I believe that their claims are bogus, but that is the sales pitch. They all calculate a payback period that is too short because it is based on unrealistic and incomplete financial projections. And, who believes that a small contractor can honor a 20 year parts and labor warranty? If you want to help the planet by buying a solar system, then that is a good reason to buy one. But, I think most people buy a solar system because the contractor has deceived them into believing that it is a good financial investment. However, that is the only way the contractors can stay in business.

Debelg
06-11-2020, 10:44 AM
Just an update on the Warranty on my solar system , yes of course the warranty is only as good as the business that provides it . I suggest to buy from a respectable company that provides a great product ,then go with a nationwide company as the installer they have labor included in the Warranty will they still be here 25years from now your guess is as good as mine but renewable energy is going to be here long after anyone that reads this post is long gone . so chances that a good company will still be here are (in my opinion) very good .

Brad-tv
08-24-2020, 12:14 PM
Has anyone used the Tesla roof shingles?

Dana1963
08-24-2020, 12:49 PM
Technology on solar panels from 10 years ago is out dated technology improving everyday. Energy efficient appliances add to savings. Power Companies and industry are enjoying savings by installation of solar technology. Disney has invested in 3 solar farms on their property in Orlando 1 rums their MGM Studio complex along with Disney Springs. We have been here for 10 years if for once I thought out of the box I would love to enjoy a 40% saving on my utility bill than a box of receipts. An investment of $20000 following the rule of 72 would take 48 years to double your return at bank rate of 11/2%. I would gladly take a 40% reduction of my electric bill in return.