Police Unions

[ColdNoMore]

Putting aside those who are against unions in general, but embrace and support police unions, here's a very good analysis/editorial of a big part of the problem...of rooting out and permanently getting rid of the 1% (or less) of bad cops.

Holding Police Accountable (click here) (http://news.yahoo.com/editorial-heres-hold-police-accountable-100017068.html)

Editorial: Here's how to hold police accountable: Don't let their unions give money to prosecutors.

That's why we need to demand accountability and change from law enforcement and the criminal justice establishment that too often shrugs at police violence.

Police unions have every right to advocate for the pay, benefits and working conditions of their members.

But one of their tasks is to defend officers in misconduct cases, and that makes the conflict of interest readily apparent.

An elected official considering whether to prosecute officers should not be, in essence, on the political payroll of the agency defending the very same people.



:ho:



.

[Topspinmo]

You could say that about any union. Especially the ones that buy career politicians for votes in their interests.

[ColdNoMore]

I also speak from 35+ years experience...in regards to dealing with unions.

Early in my career, I was a union steward who was even sent to a week school outside of Seattle...to be "trained."

A lot of what I heard in that week, is what began making me see my particular union...in a different light.

What was hammered into us, was the fact that we were legally obligated to defend even the "problem children"...as hard as we could.

That didn't make sense to me...but the law was the law.

What I did receive, from our local union President, was some very sage advice.

His attitude was that although we were required to defend the union members, there are some that you "don't have to get up early or stay up late...in their defense."

Later on in my career, when I had worked my way up through the system and had become a senior manager, I was on the other side of the table and negotiated a number of CBA's...with three separate unions.

The old president of my union at the time when I was a steward, had retired and the new/younger group(s) (all 3 unions), did not have the same wisdom and didn't bother to differentiate between the employee that was in a hearing for the umpteenth time...and the one that simply made a mistake.

Needless to say, they were not usually happy when I was at the table, because I often knew their argument and strategy...before they even expressed it. :D

Our standard punishment for a serious rules infraction conviction...was 30 days off without pay.

Recognizing that the time off didn't just affect them, but also affected their families and family finances, I often proposed an "alternative discipline" in cases...where the employee wasn't a constant problem child.

My proposed alternative discipline consisted of determining how much money they would lose with the 30 days off and offering them to keep working, at a lower rate, that would in effect make them pay the same amount of money they would lose...but to do it over a period of up to year.

Since this allowed the employee to keep working and getting a regular paycheck, albeit less than they would normally receive... about 80% accepted this alternative discipline.

The other 20% were financially OK and were actually happy...to have the 30 day "vacation."

Anyway, I saw it as a win-win...for both sides.

I didn't have to replace the employee and the employee was able to continue to pay their bills...even if it meant that they might have to tighten their belts a bit.

My long-winded point is, that I believe we need more "out-of-the-box" thinking with police unions...if we're going to solve this issue.

[ColdNoMore]

You could say that about any union. Especially the ones that buy career politicians for votes in their interests.

Yeah BUT, the last I checked we don't have a real problem with teachers killing, or even using excessive force...with their students. :oops:

[TexaninVA]

Yeah BUT, the last I checked we don't have a real problem with teachers killing, or even using excessive force...with their students. :oops:

Yes, it's worse than that. They are destroying young kids' minds with revolutionary Marxist dogma.

[John_W]

You're not the only one who knows about unions, has been a member, has been an officer, has been involved in a job action!!! Been There - Done That - You're not going to change Unions when they provide protection for the work force.

When I was a controller and you were involved in an accident. The NTSB, the FAA, the Aircrafts owners/operators and the Controllers Union would all investigate. If the aircraft crashed because the controller made an error, that's what the FAA's report would read. If the controller was working three sectors combined without a coordinator or hand-off man, or there was poor radar coverage in that area, or whatever the extenuating factors were, that's what the Union's report would read. Then the NTSB would sort it out. If not for the union, the Controller would hang!!

https://www.rwf2000.com/zau/gifs3/_0ATC001.jpg

https://www.rwf2000.com/zau/gifs3/_Patco4.jpg

https://www.rwf2000.com/zau/gifs3/_0ATCA1.jpg

https://historythings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/air-traffic-controllers-strike.jpg

[ColdNoMore]

THAT explains a lot. :1rotfl:


Not a real Reagan fan...I presume? :D


And I've never said..."I'm the only one." :oops:

[John_W]

THAT explains a lot. :1rotfl:


Not a real Reagan fan...I presume? :D

He did what he was suppose to do, we made a bet and lost!!! Then you make Lemonade out of Lemons!!! The Strike of 17,000 controllers from Puerto Rico to Guam took 3 years to organize. Jimmy Carter was in his first term, how did we know he would turn out to be so bad and get defeated. The plan was, Carter would cave. After three of years planning, too many were ready to give a go and call Reagan's Bluff!!!

[Number 10 GI]

Yeah BUT, the last I checked we don't have a real problem with teachers killing, or even using excessive force...with their students. :oops:

No they just have sex with under age children.

[ColdNoMore]

It was actually about 13,000 that went on strike and a little more than 11,000 that were fired...but don't let those pesty facts get in the way.

The firing of the ATC's was also, the beginning of a long, coordinated, game of reducing the power of union's that has (unfortunately in a lot of cases)...worked quite successfully.

I'm sure it is just a pure coincidence, that the massive reduction in union membership has had a direct opposite effect...of the profits going to the top 10%.

[Number 10 GI]

Ever hear of the AMA push for bad doctors losing their license to practice? Yeah me either. When was the last time that the Bar Association worked to get an unscrupulous lawyer debarred? How many times has our congress over looked or justified egregious behavior of their own? Sounds like a "systemic" problem to me.

[ColdNoMore]

No they just have sex with under age children.

You mean just like....nahhh never mind. :oops:


Just the thought of it...sickens me. :mad:

[Stu from NYC]

Some teachers in NYC could not be fired but could not be trusted with children.

They were sent to an office somewhere and got to read or waste the day and got paid.

The union would not allow them to be fired so they were paid to do nothing.

[anothersteve]

Some teachers in NYC could not be fired but could not be trusted with children.

They were sent to an office somewhere and got to read or waste the day and got paid.

The union would not allow them to be fired so they were paid to do nothing.

Happened in my High School. Well liked teacher having sex with a Sophmore. He was kicked out the High School and sent to the Middle School. He finally got arrested. You can guess why
Steve

[600th Photo Sq]

Well in part, because most blue states collect the highest amount of tax dollars, much of which is then paid to the federal government to cover social service expenses for states that collect the lowest amount of tax dollars - which happens to be the red states.

Go figure. Blue gets poor paying for red, and red demands lower taxes.

Well our choice to move to Florida a conservative run state which has a surplus was a smart move.

Go Capitalism ! Rock on

[biker1]

Pretty much not true. The majority of Federal tax revenues come from individual Federal income tax which are paid directly to the Federal Government. Payroll taxes are the next biggest chunk of Federal tax revenue and that also goes directly to the Federal Government. The states don't collect those taxes. It would be true to say that higher income individuals, regardless of where they live, pay more taxes because the tax system is progressive. Some blue states have serious financial problems because of poor management.

Well in part, because most blue states collect the highest amount of tax dollars, much of which is then paid to the federal government to cover social service expenses for states that collect the lowest amount of tax dollars - which happens to be the red states.

Go figure. Blue gets poor paying for red, and red demands lower taxes.

[Stu from NYC]

Curious observation. The Unions typically back Democrats. Most cities that Democrats control are basically broke.

Chicago, Detroit, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angles, New York, Philadelphia, etc.

Why ? :shocked:

Amazing how these cities are so poorly run and the same people get reelected.

[Topspinmo]

Yes, it's worse than that. They are destroying young kids' minds with revolutionary Marxist dogma.


Hey, you mentioned teachers unions I didn’t. Sorry clicked on wrong post somehow

[600th Photo Sq]

Well in part, because most blue states collect the highest amount of tax dollars, much of which is then paid to the federal government to cover social service expenses for states that collect the lowest amount of tax dollars - which happens to be the red states.

Go figure. Blue gets poor paying for red, and red demands lower taxes.

The Unions demand unrealistic benefits long term. Great until ya run out of money.

Sorry members we did our best, meanwhile the pink slips follow.

The Big Shot's ? Retired somewhere warm and sunny. Living the good life.

The members ? Who knows , Who cares.

[John_W]

Amazing how these cities are so poorly run and the same people get reelected.

The Blind Leading the Blind!!!

[bd20166]

A more accountable police force equals a more accountable public. Think about it.

[iht2209]

Lol really .... I hardly think they have the same capital as a corporate lobbyist. I would suspect 90 % of the politician’s today are owned by several companies and or counties. I really don’t believe unions have enough money to compete.

[Windguy]

Yes, it's worse than that. They are destroying young kids' minds with revolutionary Marxist dogma.

That evoked belly laughs from me.

[jakers]

Teachers don’t normally have to deal with criminals or wrestle with gangbangers and
all sorts of armed bad guys on the street everyday.
The police have a hard job. Without the support of governmental leaders, we won’t have anyone willing to do the job. Who you gonna call...Ghostbusters?!

[jakers]

Teachers don’t normally have to deal with criminals or wrestle with gangbangers and
all sorts of armed bad guys on the street everyday.
The police have a hard job. Without the support of governmental leaders, we won’t have anyone willing to do the job. Who you gonna call...Ghostbusters?!

[Stu from NYC]

Lol really .... I hardly think they have the same capital as a corporate lobbyist. I would suspect 90 % of the politician’s today are owned by several companies and or counties. I really don’t believe unions have enough money to compete.

Does not cost that much to buy a congressman. 100,000 or so gets you one or two

[huange@verizon.net]

Yeah BUT, the last I checked we don't have a real problem with teachers killing, or even using excessive force...with their students. :oops:

OP was about police unions. How did you segue to teachers? But, since you brought them up, how about sex with minors? Not killing nor excessive force, nor as frequent, but illegal whereas killing and excessive force may be justifiable in certain circumstances (armed assaults, terrorism, robberies).

[J1ceasar]

Unions got workers healthcare and $60 an hour .
But unions killed GM and Chrysler etc . you see there is no middle ground to be fair in business or public works . everyone wants MORE . you can say because of unions and over regulation , China has succeeded in taking over our manufacturing.

[Neils]

Retrain and instill a new (old) attitude through the ranks.

Job should be to “Protect and SERVE” Not just “Law Enforcement”

Huge difference

Andy G didnt usually carry a gun but got his job done.

Stop dressing and arming officers to look like storm troopers

[kenoc7]

Yes, it's worse than that. They are destroying young kids' minds with revolutionary Marxist dogma.

That is absurd.

[greenflash245]

union hides the crooked cops. go figure.

[arbajeda]

The whole argument is moot. The Supreme Court has held that monetary contributions are protected free speech. Until that decision is overturned the only real solution is for the electorate to vote in governors/mayors/councilmen (and women)/sheriffs who will implement reforms that outlaw bad behavior, negotiate CBAs that permit dismissal of bad actors and revoke laws that make it impossible to prosecute police whose conduct would put ordinary citizens in jail.

[allsport]

Actually there are many more lawyers that are disbarred than docs who lose their license. I was in a position where I regularly reviewed state board information for nurses who had licensing issues and there were pages in the state who were in trouble. Never were there any docs in trouble because they never policed their own. When I heard them complain about the cost of malpractice insurance, I always told them to police their profession and the cost would drop.

[Dust Bunny]

Bill Clinton was disbarred and paid a fine as well

[coconutmama]

Bill Clinton was disbarred and paid a fine as well

Not disbarred. Arkansas license suspended for 5 years over Monica affair. Did pay a fine.

[jbrown132]

Yeah BUT, the last I checked we don't have a real problem with teachers killing, or even using excessive force...with their students. :oops:

Yeah but, but what the union does do is protect some teachers that are utterly incompetent and should never be in a class room. They may not physically abuse the children but the do leave life long scars on their minds.

[roscoguy]

Unions got workers healthcare and $60 an hour .
But unions killed GM and Chrysler etc . you see there is no middle ground to be fair in business or public works . everyone wants MORE . you can say because of unions and over regulation , China has succeeded in taking over our manufacturing.

Which unions "got workers healthcare and $60 an hour"??? Please show some factual basis for this claim. For the U.S. auto companies, a very large part of the average cost per vehicle difference is due to legacy/retiree costs, something the 'imports' aren't yet paying for. Foreign automakers have also been offered huge incentives to build, primarily in the south, which further reduced their costs.
Unions haven't "killed GM and Chrysler etc". This is a totally one-sided argument & completely exonerates the U.S. auto companies for their uninspiring design & poor business decisions from the 60's onward that concentrated on profitability to the detriment of innovation, quality and design. Unions aren't blameless in regards to the higher costs per vehicle, but dropping it all on their laps is pure BS.

[cheweycat]

That’s a broad generalization!

[cheweycat]

Another broad generalization. The topic is Police Unions.

[cheweycat]

Yes, and I saw ir on Fox news. LOL

[sloanst]

I don't believe in public sector unions at all. We should have a more direct control of our tax dollars and being able to terminate bad apples quickly should be at the forefront of that control.

[Stu from NYC]

Which unions "got workers healthcare and $60 an hour"??? Please show some factual basis for this claim. For the U.S. auto companies, a very large part of the average cost per vehicle difference is due to legacy/retiree costs, something the 'imports' aren't yet paying for. Foreign automakers have also been offered huge incentives to build, primarily in the south, which further reduced their costs.
Unions haven't "killed GM and Chrysler etc". This is a totally one-sided argument & completely exonerates the U.S. auto companies for their uninspiring design & poor business decisions from the 60's onward that concentrated on profitability to the detriment of innovation, quality and design. Unions aren't blameless in regards to the higher costs per vehicle, but dropping it all on their laps is pure BS.

With the automakers plenty of blame to go around. Poor management and unions that allowed their members to do shoddy work and not be accountable for such.

[Stu from NYC]

Yeah but, but what the union does do is protect some teachers that are utterly incompetent and should never be in a class room. They may not physically abuse the children but the do leave life long scars on their minds.

Very true. It is sad that unions do not promote the cause of improving education and getting rid of incompetents or ones who do not perform..

[transplanted]

Okay - I'm going to give you a real life example that I lived through with the FOP and the union and their defense of an accused police officer. January 2019. A police officer was the second on scene of a domestic issue, I'll call him Cliff. A drunk and high woman was, let's say acting out, at her "baby daddy's" home, demanding immediate physical custody of their 5 year-old daughter. The solution decided by the on scene commander was to remove the woman from the scene. Showing a bit of compassion, he chose to relocate her rather than arrest her. Cliff, deciding not to just drive her down the street and dump her at the 7-11, because she would just walk back to the scene and start up again, offered her a ride to the metro (subway) station so she could get home. She didn't have any money, having spent it all on a taxi to take her to another county to get to the scene. Upon arriving at the station and parking under a security camera at 5:30 in the morning, the woman refused to get out of the cruiser. Cliff offers to call a friend to come get her if she didn't want to take the metro. He calls the friend (with his number blocked) and leaves voice message. He calls back a few minutes later and the friend answers. Cliff gets out of the cruiser and walks a few feet away and offers the phone to the woman -- which gets her out of the cruiser, which he immediately locks. The woman talks to her friend on the phone, with people walking by, into the station to get the metro to go to work. When she is done, she demands Cliff take her all the way home - to a county outside his jurisdiction and he refuses. She asks for money to ride the metro and he gives her a $ rather than just totally leave her stranded. She then tells him "if you leave me here, you'll regret it." And Cliff drives off. Ninety minutes later, while finishing up his shift, Cliff gets a call to come straight away to the station. Upon arrival, he is swabbed for dna, his uniform, weapon, credentials, cruiser, etc., is confiscated and he's told he's under suspension due to an accusation of 'inappropriate touching' -- the actual description is over the top, but that's the category used. Allegedly all this touching, by the woman, who was wearing long pants, occurred in the front seat and in the back seat of the cruiser, in the metro parking lot, under the camera, and while all these people were walking by, and she was under NO restraints. The woman walks into the metro station and makes the accusation and is rushed off to a hospital for all kinds of testing. This is in today's world of the phone camera, where anyone would have heard any screams or seen any kind of scuffle, etc... yet there is no one reporting anything, no one filming anything - nothing. Okay - Cliff is sent off to suspension land to guess what the H is going on; having been officer of the year the previous year and awarded a medal of valor for stepping into a shoot-out to save a toddler's life. He must undergo psych therapy, wear civilian clothes to work at a desk job, be buzzed in and out of the office, give up ALL off-duty work and sit at a desk where all he can do is answer the phone and call someone in off the street if a report needs to be taken. Metro says they have jurisdiction to investigate and his own IA can't investigate until metro is finished. Of course the hospital tests reveal all kinds of 'activity' by the woman, but none of the 4 dna's they gather match Cliff's. A multitude of illicit drugs and an elevated level of alcohol are also found. By the next day, the local media catches wind and runs out to the metro to interview random people, telling them of the broad accusation and recording their shock at such behavior by the police. This is played on tv for several days, along with teasers that say "see the evidence at 9". I have recorded all those shows, and am still waiting to see any evidence related to the case. Okay - Cliff asks for an attorney as he wants to have the woman prosecuted when it's all over 'cause he knows he didn't do anything and the investigations will bear it out. He's told he'll get an attorney if he needs one during the investigations. Jump to May - 5 months later - metro has finished it's investigation and has been unsuccessful in finding the woman so they can ask her more about her side of the story, and baby-daddy refuses to cooperate with any investigation, 'cause he's the first to call the police for help, but doesn't want to help with any investigation... stellar citizenry in action. The local prosecutor sends EVERYTHING to a grand jury if it involves police, 'cause she wants to protect her backside - forget about the police officer. And since, you guessed it, this is a white officer and an african-american woman, we better triple make sure he didn't look at her cross-eyed. The grand jury subpoena's baby-daddy who still won't cooperate, and baby-mama is still hiding out. I say tell ME where baby-daddy lives and I'll FIND baby-mama... those two are gonna meet up over that child at some point! Grand jury says the case is BS and doesn't indict. Where is the media and their follow-up reporting... crickets... crickets... the crickets are deafening. So that all happens by May. IA now does their thing and finally, in August, Cliff is returned to duty. Having lost about $50,000 in moonlighting, having been shamed by the accusations, having gotten a good case of PTSD -- he has been refused a body cam, even offered to pay for it himself and told no, only certain units can have them, and he no longer wants to be alone in any fashion with a female 'suspect' for lack of a better word. And, oh by the way, all accusations, unfounded or not, stay in the record. And here's the best prize - for both him and the taxpayer who spent over $60,000 for the investigations, hospital tests, etc., they won't prosecute the woman because it might discourage true victims from coming forward if they think they might be prosecuted. Seriously. So forgive me if I seem a bit jaded about how the police unions, etc., protect the police officer. I lived this one - Cliff is my brother and I was living there when it all happened. Sorry to take up so much space, but this experience has greatly colored my world and vision of what I see on the news and what I know goes on in the background. I know he is not the only one who has experienced such politically correct nonsense.

[John_W]

Some large companies without a union will do anything they want without regard to their employees. My wife worked at Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Maryland from 1969 until 1993. One day they called her into the office and said, you can resign now and we'll give you three months pay or if you go back to your desk, we'll fire you and you will get nothing. Of course she resigned, they replaced her with a temp at $15 an hour with no benefits. She applied for unemployment, and even though she had quit, she received full benefits because they said, they know what Blue Cross does to their employees.

She started as a file clerk and worked her way up to an underwriter, she had great healthcare with zero deductible, six weeks vacation a year but the pay wasn't great, it was in the low $30's. Two years before the new president of the company, William Jews who was paid $5 million a year salary. Decided he liked the suburb of Owings Mills better than Towson, so he bought a million dollar house in Owings Mills. He sold the company's headquarters, a small high-rise building in Towson to Baltimore County for $7 million and they moved their police headquarters into the building.

William Jews, the man who used Blue Cross of Maryland as his own cash cow!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Co3jv-9UkAEXEJ0.jpg:large

The Towson Blue Cross building that Jews determined was no longer suitable and sold for $7 million, the county moved their police headquarters into the building.

https://dome.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.3/28556/116122_sv.jpg?sequence=2

William Jews had the company build two new high-rise buildings on the edge of Owings Mills Mall for several million more and the company moved there.

https://media.merchantcircle.com/37109096/tmpIhnfYf_full.jpeg

The company got such a bad reputation by denying claims, raising premiums. I had my coverage at $200 a month, they attempted to raise it to $250 a month for several years and causing me to raise my deductible every year, until it got to $3,000 deductible and then I finally dropped them. My wife said they many security guards at the new buildings because so many irate customers attempted to do harm to the company. In the end, she was glad she no longer had to work there.

Jews attempted to sell the company in 2001 for $1.3 billion which would of generated him a $39 million bonus. It was eventually blocked and the state assembly stepped in and replaced most of the company's board. Instead Jews gave himself a $9 million bonus in 2002. Jews finally left Blue Cross in 2006 and received a golden parachute of $18 million dollars.

[ColdNoMore]

Okay - I'm going to give you a real life example that I lived through with the FOP and the union and their defense of an accused police officer. January 2019. A police officer was the second on scene of a domestic issue, I'll call him Cliff. A drunk and high woman was, let's say acting out, at her "baby daddy's" home, demanding immediate physical custody of their 5 year-old daughter. The solution decided by the on scene commander was to remove the woman from the scene. Showing a bit of compassion, he chose to relocate her rather than arrest her. Cliff, deciding not to just drive her down the street and dump her at the 7-11, because she would just walk back to the scene and start up again, offered her a ride to the metro (subway) station so she could get home. She didn't have any money, having spent it all on a taxi to take her to another county to get to the scene. Upon arriving at the station and parking under a security camera at 5:30 in the morning, the woman refused to get out of the cruiser. Cliff offers to call a friend to come get her if she didn't want to take the metro. He calls the friend (with his number blocked) and leaves voice message. He calls back a few minutes later and the friend answers. Cliff gets out of the cruiser and walks a few feet away and offers the phone to the woman -- which gets her out of the cruiser, which he immediately locks. The woman talks to her friend on the phone, with people walking by, into the station to get the metro to go to work. When she is done, she demands Cliff take her all the way home - to a county outside his jurisdiction and he refuses. She asks for money to ride the metro and he gives her a $ rather than just totally leave her stranded. She then tells him "if you leave me here, you'll regret it." And Cliff drives off. Ninety minutes later, while finishing up his shift, Cliff gets a call to come straight away to the station. Upon arrival, he is swabbed for dna, his uniform, weapon, credentials, cruiser, etc., is confiscated and he's told he's under suspension due to an accusation of 'inappropriate touching' -- the actual description is over the top, but that's the category used. Allegedly all this touching, by the woman, who was wearing long pants, occurred in the front seat and in the back seat of the cruiser, in the metro parking lot, under the camera, and while all these people were walking by, and she was under NO restraints. The woman walks into the metro station and makes the accusation and is rushed off to a hospital for all kinds of testing. This is in today's world of the phone camera, where anyone would have heard any screams or seen any kind of scuffle, etc... yet there is no one reporting anything, no one filming anything - nothing. Okay - Cliff is sent off to suspension land to guess what the H is going on; having been officer of the year the previous year and awarded a medal of valor for stepping into a shoot-out to save a toddler's life. He must undergo psych therapy, wear civilian clothes to work at a desk job, be buzzed in and out of the office, give up ALL off-duty work and sit at a desk where all he can do is answer the phone and call someone in off the street if a report needs to be taken. Metro says they have jurisdiction to investigate and his own IA can't investigate until metro is finished. Of course the hospital tests reveal all kinds of 'activity' by the woman, but none of the 4 dna's they gather match Cliff's. A multitude of illicit drugs and an elevated level of alcohol are also found. By the next day, the local media catches wind and runs out to the metro to interview random people, telling them of the broad accusation and recording their shock at such behavior by the police. This is played on tv for several days, along with teasers that say "see the evidence at 9". I have recorded all those shows, and am still waiting to see any evidence related to the case. Okay - Cliff asks for an attorney as he wants to have the woman prosecuted when it's all over 'cause he knows he didn't do anything and the investigations will bear it out. He's told he'll get an attorney if he needs one during the investigations. Jump to May - 5 months later - metro has finished it's investigation and has been unsuccessful in finding the woman so they can ask her more about her side of the story, and baby-daddy refuses to cooperate with any investigation, 'cause he's the first to call the police for help, but doesn't want to help with any investigation... stellar citizenry in action. The local prosecutor sends EVERYTHING to a grand jury if it involves police, 'cause she wants to protect her backside - forget about the police officer. And since, you guessed it, this is a white officer and an african-american woman, we better triple make sure he didn't look at her cross-eyed. The grand jury subpoena's baby-daddy who still won't cooperate, and baby-mama is still hiding out. I say tell ME where baby-daddy lives and I'll FIND baby-mama... those two are gonna meet up over that child at some point! Grand jury says the case is BS and doesn't indict. Where is the media and their follow-up reporting... crickets... crickets... the crickets are deafening. So that all happens by May. IA now does their thing and finally, in August, Cliff is returned to duty. Having lost about $50,000 in moonlighting, having been shamed by the accusations, having gotten a good case of PTSD -- he has been refused a body cam, even offered to pay for it himself and told no, only certain units can have them, and he no longer wants to be alone in any fashion with a female 'suspect' for lack of a better word. And, oh by the way, all accusations, unfounded or not, stay in the record. And here's the best prize - for both him and the taxpayer who spent over $60,000 for the investigations, hospital tests, etc., they won't prosecute the woman because it might discourage true victims from coming forward if they think they might be prosecuted. Seriously. So forgive me if I seem a bit jaded about how the police unions, etc., protect the police officer. I lived this one - Cliff is my brother and I was living there when it all happened. Sorry to take up so much space, but this experience has greatly colored my world and vision of what I see on the news and what I know goes on in the background. I know he is not the only one who has experienced such politically correct nonsense.

While there's no question that what happened to your brother was dead wrong and there's probably lots of similar stories, don't lose sight of how many times cops have gotten away with assault (even sexual)...and excessive violence toward suspects.

In other words, one needs to look at the big picture...not just lone anecdotal incidents.

[mahoyd86]

So I though the purpose of the demonstrations was to hold those responsible, accountable for there actions, but yet there are celebrities, politicians and the media defending and donating money to defend those destroying property and looting. The reason for a union to defend the actions of there officers is that about 99% of citizens complaints are dismissed and to insure that the office has a chance to defend himself.

[ColdNoMore]

Okay - I'm going to give you a real life example that I lived through with the FOP and the union and their defense of an accused police officer. January 2019. A police officer was the second on scene of a domestic issue, I'll call him Cliff. A drunk and high woman was, let's say acting out, at her "baby daddy's" home, demanding immediate physical custody of their 5 year-old daughter. The solution decided by the on scene commander was to remove the woman from the scene. Showing a bit of compassion, he chose to relocate her rather than arrest her. Cliff, deciding not to just drive her down the street and dump her at the 7-11, because she would just walk back to the scene and start up again, offered her a ride to the metro (subway) station so she could get home. She didn't have any money, having spent it all on a taxi to take her to another county to get to the scene. Upon arriving at the station and parking under a security camera at 5:30 in the morning, the woman refused to get out of the cruiser. Cliff offers to call a friend to come get her if she didn't want to take the metro. He calls the friend (with his number blocked) and leaves voice message. He calls back a few minutes later and the friend answers. Cliff gets out of the cruiser and walks a few feet away and offers the phone to the woman -- which gets her out of the cruiser, which he immediately locks. The woman talks to her friend on the phone, with people walking by, into the station to get the metro to go to work. When she is done, she demands Cliff take her all the way home - to a county outside his jurisdiction and he refuses. She asks for money to ride the metro and he gives her a $ rather than just totally leave her stranded. She then tells him "if you leave me here, you'll regret it." And Cliff drives off. Ninety minutes later, while finishing up his shift, Cliff gets a call to come straight away to the station. Upon arrival, he is swabbed for dna, his uniform, weapon, credentials, cruiser, etc., is confiscated and he's told he's under suspension due to an accusation of 'inappropriate touching' -- the actual description is over the top, but that's the category used. Allegedly all this touching, by the woman, who was wearing long pants, occurred in the front seat and in the back seat of the cruiser, in the metro parking lot, under the camera, and while all these people were walking by, and she was under NO restraints. The woman walks into the metro station and makes the accusation and is rushed off to a hospital for all kinds of testing. This is in today's world of the phone camera, where anyone would have heard any screams or seen any kind of scuffle, etc... yet there is no one reporting anything, no one filming anything - nothing. Okay - Cliff is sent off to suspension land to guess what the H is going on; having been officer of the year the previous year and awarded a medal of valor for stepping into a shoot-out to save a toddler's life. He must undergo psych therapy, wear civilian clothes to work at a desk job, be buzzed in and out of the office, give up ALL off-duty work and sit at a desk where all he can do is answer the phone and call someone in off the street if a report needs to be taken. Metro says they have jurisdiction to investigate and his own IA can't investigate until metro is finished. Of course the hospital tests reveal all kinds of 'activity' by the woman, but none of the 4 dna's they gather match Cliff's. A multitude of illicit drugs and an elevated level of alcohol are also found. By the next day, the local media catches wind and runs out to the metro to interview random people, telling them of the broad accusation and recording their shock at such behavior by the police. This is played on tv for several days, along with teasers that say "see the evidence at 9". I have recorded all those shows, and am still waiting to see any evidence related to the case. Okay - Cliff asks for an attorney as he wants to have the woman prosecuted when it's all over 'cause he knows he didn't do anything and the investigations will bear it out. He's told he'll get an attorney if he needs one during the investigations. Jump to May - 5 months later - metro has finished it's investigation and has been unsuccessful in finding the woman so they can ask her more about her side of the story, and baby-daddy refuses to cooperate with any investigation, 'cause he's the first to call the police for help, but doesn't want to help with any investigation... stellar citizenry in action. The local prosecutor sends EVERYTHING to a grand jury if it involves police, 'cause she wants to protect her backside - forget about the police officer. And since, you guessed it, this is a white officer and an african-american woman, we better triple make sure he didn't look at her cross-eyed. The grand jury subpoena's baby-daddy who still won't cooperate, and baby-mama is still hiding out. I say tell ME where baby-daddy lives and I'll FIND baby-mama... those two are gonna meet up over that child at some point! Grand jury says the case is BS and doesn't indict. Where is the media and their follow-up reporting... crickets... crickets... the crickets are deafening. So that all happens by May. IA now does their thing and finally, in August, Cliff is returned to duty. Having lost about $50,000 in moonlighting, having been shamed by the accusations, having gotten a good case of PTSD -- he has been refused a body cam, even offered to pay for it himself and told no, only certain units can have them, and he no longer wants to be alone in any fashion with a female 'suspect' for lack of a better word. And, oh by the way, all accusations, unfounded or not, stay in the record. And here's the best prize - for both him and the taxpayer who spent over $60,000 for the investigations, hospital tests, etc., they won't prosecute the woman because it might discourage true victims from coming forward if they think they might be prosecuted. Seriously. So forgive me if I seem a bit jaded about how the police unions, etc., protect the police officer. I lived this one - Cliff is my brother and I was living there when it all happened. Sorry to take up so much space, but this experience has greatly colored my world and vision of what I see on the news and what I know goes on in the background. I know he is not the only one who has experienced such politically correct nonsense.

What happened to your brother was dead wrong.

Just as wrong though, are those who have actually done and gotten away with...that which your brother was wrongly accused of.

[ColdNoMore]

So I though the purpose of the demonstrations was to hold those responsible, accountable for there actions, but yet there are celebrities, politicians and the media defending and donating money to defend those destroying property and looting. The reason for a union to defend the actions of there officers is that about 99% of citizens complaints are dismissed and to insure that the office has a chance to defend himself.

And then we watch as so many (coerced by their union) applaud and support, two cops who shoved a 75 year old man to the ground as we watched it happening, causing a serious head injury...then not even stopping to help.

THIS from the people hired to..."Serve & Protect?"

What's wrong with this picture? :oops:

[John_W]

And then we watch as so many (coerced by their union) applaud and support, two cops who shoved a 75 year old man to the ground as we watched it happening, causing a serious head injury...then not even stopping to help.

THIS from the people hired to..."Serve & Protect?"

What's wrong with this picture? :oops:

That guy is just like the people who get up everyday and try and think of ways to sue Walmart. What am I going to do today to agitate the police and get myself on television. Even the black mayor of Buffalo called out the guy!!!!!! Kind of makes you look silly now to bring this up!!!


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/06/06/05/29283782-8394057-Buffalo_Mayor_Byron_Brown_on_Friday_said_he_would_ not_call_for_t-a-86_1591416000513.jpg

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) on Friday said he was told that the 75-year-old man who was pushed down by police in a viral video was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

“According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator,” Brown told WBEN in a radio interview.

In a graphic video shot by a WBFO journalist earlier in the week, Martin Gugino is seen slowly approaching the police until one officer tells him to move and pushes him.

A person can be heard yelling, “He’s bleeding out of his ear!” and calling out for medics. Gugino is then seen lying on his back with blood spilling from his ear.

Brown claimed that the police asked Gugino to leave the premises several times as law enforcement tried to disperse protesters after an 8 p.m. curfew.

"He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown said. “Those people were there into the darkness. Our concern is when it gets dark, there is a potential for violence. There has been vandalism. There have been fires set. There have been stores broken into and looted. According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those activities."

[roscoguy]

With the automakers plenty of blame to go around. Poor management and unions that allowed their members to do shoddy work and not be accountable for such.

I do agree with your first statement. The last part of the second one, not so much maybe. At least as far as the production part of the business, anyway. Some vehicle problems could be blamed on assembly line workers I have to admit, but there were inspectors that could have, should have and mostly did catch those. There were also antiquated machinery, processes and methods that made it very difficult to build a decent vehicle in years past. There were cases when the inspectors were told to ignore certain types of problems if it meant slowing or stopping production.

[billethkid]

And then we watch as so many (coerced by their union) applaud and support, two cops who shoved a 75 year old man to the ground as we watched it happening, causing a serious head injury...then not even stopping to help.

THIS from the people hired to..."Serve & Protect?"

What's wrong with this picture? :oops:

A specific incident presented as a general condition.
An individual who happens to be "one" of "...the people..." hired that do in fact protect and serve.

[ColdNoMore]

How did you come to that conclusion?? What part didn't you understand??

Here's a lesson in Comprehension 101!!!

That guy is just like the people who get up everyday and try and think of ways to sue Walmart. What am I going to do today to agitate the police and get myself on television. Even the black mayor of Buffalo called out the guy!!!!!! Kind of makes you look silly now to bring this up!!!

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) [I]on Friday said he was told that the 75-year-old man who was pushed down by police in a viral video was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

“According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator,” Brown told WBEN in a radio interview.

In a graphic video shot by a WBFO journalist earlier in the week, Martin Gugino is seen slowly approaching the police until one officer tells him to move and pushes him.

A person can be heard yelling, “He’s bleeding out of his ear!” and calling out for medics. Gugino is then seen lying on his back with blood spilling from his ear.

Brown claimed that the police asked Gugino to leave the premises several times as law enforcement tried to disperse protesters after an 8 p.m. curfew.

"He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown said. “Those people were there into the darkness. Our concern is when it gets dark, there is a potential for violence. There has been vandalism. There have been fires set. There have been stores broken into and looted. According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those activities."

Feeling silly?

Hardly.

I can't help but laugh...and shake my head in disgust.

A lesson in comprehension is definitely in order...but it's not for me.

Read it again..."According to what was reported to me"..."said he was told."

NOW, I wonder exactly who...was "doing the reporting"?

I'll help you.

It's the exact same ones, who support the act and the two that did it...as we ALL watched with our own eyes. :oops:

[lindaelane]

I spent 34 years as a classroom teacher.

In the United States, teachers are trained not to touch students for any reason, not even to protect themselves or others. Every campus I ever worked on had "Security" - workers in uniforms authorized to use "necessary but not excessive" force - plus we had intercoms on which to call them. We also normally had one campus police officer, though the police officer never came to the many fights I saw, basically, security handled it.

There was no "right to peaceful protest" on campus. Students were to be in class (or the library or eating in the cafeteria). A few times, a peaceful protest happened at the end of lunch hour, but there was not time for things to get out of hand. If groups of students refused to go to class, security escorted them. Teachers were hands off.

(It was different when I taught in the United Kingdom and was trained to intervene to prevent a student from harming themselves or another student. I was taught the safest way to restrain a student, going around back and clasping them in my arms at the student's elbow level. I supposed the student could have kicked my shins, but the one time I had to intervene in such a way I was not kicked.)

I was assaulted 3 times in 34 years and I would guess that is a below average number (not seriously harmed, just pushed or given a single punch.) I certainly did not strike back. In no case was the student punished who assaulted me. In no case was I accused of causing the assault by anything I said or did. (Well...in one case students said I put my hands on my hips and said "stay there", which is said to be a provocative gesture in their culture that I was unaware of at the time, but that's hardly an accusation of inciting an assault.)

[Stu from NYC]

I do agree with your first statement. The last part of the second one, not so much maybe. At least as far as the production part of the business, anyway. Some vehicle problems could be blamed on assembly line workers I have to admit, but there were inspectors that could have, should have and mostly did catch those. There were also antiquated machinery, processes and methods that made it very difficult to build a decent vehicle in years past. There were cases when the inspectors were told to ignore certain types of problems if it meant slowing or stopping production.

Years ago it was common knowledge that if you can help it never buy a car assembled on a Friday or a Monday. Apparently lots of workers would regularly use vacation or personal time to get a long weekend and the replacements would put out cars that would be a lemon.

[Stu from NYC]

Okay - I'm going to give you a real life example that I lived through with the FOP and the union and their defense of an accused police officer. January 2019. A police officer was the second on scene of a domestic issue, I'll call him Cliff. A drunk and high woman was, let's say acting out, at her "baby daddy's" home, demanding immediate physical custody of their 5 year-old daughter. The solution decided by the on scene commander was to remove the woman from the scene. Showing a bit of compassion, he chose to relocate her rather than arrest her. Cliff, deciding not to just drive her down the street and dump her at the 7-11, because she would just walk back to the scene and start up again, offered her a ride to the metro (subway) station so she could get home. She didn't have any money, having spent it all on a taxi to take her to another county to get to the scene. Upon arriving at the station and parking under a security camera at 5:30 in the morning, the woman refused to get out of the cruiser. Cliff offers to call a friend to come get her if she didn't want to take the metro. He calls the friend (with his number blocked) and leaves voice message. He calls back a few minutes later and the friend answers. Cliff gets out of the cruiser and walks a few feet away and offers the phone to the woman -- which gets her out of the cruiser, which he immediately locks. The woman talks to her friend on the phone, with people walking by, into the station to get the metro to go to work. When she is done, she demands Cliff take her all the way home - to a county outside his jurisdiction and he refuses. She asks for money to ride the metro and he gives her a $ rather than just totally leave her stranded. She then tells him "if you leave me here, you'll regret it." And Cliff drives off. Ninety minutes later, while finishing up his shift, Cliff gets a call to come straight away to the station. Upon arrival, he is swabbed for dna, his uniform, weapon, credentials, cruiser, etc., is confiscated and he's told he's under suspension due to an accusation of 'inappropriate touching' -- the actual description is over the top, but that's the category used. Allegedly all this touching, by the woman, who was wearing long pants, occurred in the front seat and in the back seat of the cruiser, in the metro parking lot, under the camera, and while all these people were walking by, and she was under NO restraints. The woman walks into the metro station and makes the accusation and is rushed off to a hospital for all kinds of testing. This is in today's world of the phone camera, where anyone would have heard any screams or seen any kind of scuffle, etc... yet there is no one reporting anything, no one filming anything - nothing. Okay - Cliff is sent off to suspension land to guess what the H is going on; having been officer of the year the previous year and awarded a medal of valor for stepping into a shoot-out to save a toddler's life. He must undergo psych therapy, wear civilian clothes to work at a desk job, be buzzed in and out of the office, give up ALL off-duty work and sit at a desk where all he can do is answer the phone and call someone in off the street if a report needs to be taken. Metro says they have jurisdiction to investigate and his own IA can't investigate until metro is finished. Of course the hospital tests reveal all kinds of 'activity' by the woman, but none of the 4 dna's they gather match Cliff's. A multitude of illicit drugs and an elevated level of alcohol are also found. By the next day, the local media catches wind and runs out to the metro to interview random people, telling them of the broad accusation and recording their shock at such behavior by the police. This is played on tv for several days, along with teasers that say "see the evidence at 9". I have recorded all those shows, and am still waiting to see any evidence related to the case. Okay - Cliff asks for an attorney as he wants to have the woman prosecuted when it's all over 'cause he knows he didn't do anything and the investigations will bear it out. He's told he'll get an attorney if he needs one during the investigations. Jump to May - 5 months later - metro has finished it's investigation and has been unsuccessful in finding the woman so they can ask her more about her side of the story, and baby-daddy refuses to cooperate with any investigation, 'cause he's the first to call the police for help, but doesn't want to help with any investigation... stellar citizenry in action. The local prosecutor sends EVERYTHING to a grand jury if it involves police, 'cause she wants to protect her backside - forget about the police officer. And since, you guessed it, this is a white officer and an african-american woman, we better triple make sure he didn't look at her cross-eyed. The grand jury subpoena's baby-daddy who still won't cooperate, and baby-mama is still hiding out. I say tell ME where baby-daddy lives and I'll FIND baby-mama... those two are gonna meet up over that child at some point! Grand jury says the case is BS and doesn't indict. Where is the media and their follow-up reporting... crickets... crickets... the crickets are deafening. So that all happens by May. IA now does their thing and finally, in August, Cliff is returned to duty. Having lost about $50,000 in moonlighting, having been shamed by the accusations, having gotten a good case of PTSD -- he has been refused a body cam, even offered to pay for it himself and told no, only certain units can have them, and he no longer wants to be alone in any fashion with a female 'suspect' for lack of a better word. And, oh by the way, all accusations, unfounded or not, stay in the record. And here's the best prize - for both him and the taxpayer who spent over $60,000 for the investigations, hospital tests, etc., they won't prosecute the woman because it might discourage true victims from coming forward if they think they might be prosecuted. Seriously. So forgive me if I seem a bit jaded about how the police unions, etc., protect the police officer. I lived this one - Cliff is my brother and I was living there when it all happened. Sorry to take up so much space, but this experience has greatly colored my world and vision of what I see on the news and what I know goes on in the background. I know he is not the only one who has experienced such politically correct nonsense.

Wow that stinks, sorry that happened to your brother and hope he has a long and happy and safe career and he should be thanked for his service.

In the future could you please use paragraphs.

[bmit16]

I also speak from 35+ years experience...in regards to dealing with unions.

Early in my career, I was a union steward who was even sent to a week school outside of Seattle...to be "trained."

A lot of what I heard in that week, is what began making me see my particular union...in a different light.

What was hammered into us, was the fact that we were legally obligated to defend even the "problem children"...as hard as we could.

That didn't make sense to me...but the law was the law.

What I did receive, from our local union President, was some very sage advice.

His attitude was that although we were required to defend the union members, there are some that you "don't have to get up early or stay up late...in their defense."

Later on in my career, when I had worked my way up through the system and had become a senior manager, I was on the other side of the table and negotiated a number of CBA's...with three separate unions.

The old president of my union at the time when I was a steward, had retired and the new/younger group(s) (all 3 unions), did not have the same wisdom and didn't bother to differentiate between the employee that was in a hearing for the umpteenth time...and the one that simply made a mistake.

Needless to say, they were not usually happy when I was at the table, because I often knew their argument and strategy...before they even expressed it. :D

Our standard punishment for a serious rules infraction conviction...was 30 days off without pay.

Recognizing that the time off didn't just affect them, but also affected their families and family finances, I often proposed an "alternative discipline" in cases...where the employee wasn't a constant problem child.

My proposed alternative discipline consisted of determining how much money they would lose with the 30 days off and offering them to keep working, at a lower rate, that would in effect make them pay the same amount of money they would lose...but to do it over a period of up to year.

Since this allowed the employee to keep working and getting a regular paycheck, albeit less than they would normally receive... about 80% accepted this alternative discipline.

The other 20% were financially OK and were actually happy...to have the 30 day "vacation."

Anyway, I saw it as a win-win...for both sides.

I didn't have to replace the employee and the employee was able to continue to pay their bills...even if it meant that they might have to tighten their belts a bit.

My long-winded point is, that I believe we need more "out-of-the-box" thinking with police unions...if we're going to solve this issue.


What about police departments that do not have unions? Believe it or not, there are probably more that do not have union representation. Many only have the FOP and that is not a union. You seem to be painting with a very broad brush!

[newgirl]

Watch Patriot act on utube or Netflix-policing. Everyone needs this info about police unions, will terrify you!!!

[jimjamuser]

I also speak from 35+ years experience...in regards to dealing with unions.

Early in my career, I was a union steward who was even sent to a week school outside of Seattle...to be "trained."

A lot of what I heard in that week, is what began making me see my particular union...in a different light.

What was hammered into us, was the fact that we were legally obligated to defend even the "problem children"...as hard as we could.

That didn't make sense to me...but the law was the law.

What I did receive, from our local union President, was some very sage advice.

His attitude was that although we were required to defend the union members, there are some that you "don't have to get up early or stay up late...in their defense."

Later on in my career, when I had worked my way up through the system and had become a senior manager, I was on the other side of the table and negotiated a number of CBA's...with three separate unions.

The old president of my union at the time when I was a steward, had retired and the new/younger group(s) (all 3 unions), did not have the same wisdom and didn't bother to differentiate between the employee that was in a hearing for the umpteenth time...and the one that simply made a mistake.

Needless to say, they were not usually happy when I was at the table, because I often knew their argument and strategy...before they even expressed it. :D

Our standard punishment for a serious rules infraction conviction...was 30 days off without pay.

Recognizing that the time off didn't just affect them, but also affected their families and family finances, I often proposed an "alternative discipline" in cases...where the employee wasn't a constant problem child.

My proposed alternative discipline consisted of determining how much money they would lose with the 30 days off and offering them to keep working, at a lower rate, that would in effect make them pay the same amount of money they would lose...but to do it over a period of up to year.

Since this allowed the employee to keep working and getting a regular paycheck, albeit less than they would normally receive... about 80% accepted this alternative discipline.

The other 20% were financially OK and were actually happy...to have the 30 day "vacation."

Anyway, I saw it as a win-win...for both sides.

I didn't have to replace the employee and the employee was able to continue to pay their bills...even if it meant that they might have to tighten their belts a bit.

My long-winded point is, that I believe we need more "out-of-the-box" thinking with police unions...if we're going to solve this issue.

Impressive "out of the box" thinking. We need more of that.

[Number 10 GI]

Retrain and instill a new (old) attitude through the ranks.

Job should be to “Protect and SERVE” Not just “Law Enforcement”

Huge difference

Andy G didnt usually carry a gun but got his job done.

Stop dressing and arming officers to look like storm troopers

The Andy Griffith show was a television show, absolutely no real life depictions.

[J1ceasar]

Trouble with your viewpoint is that how do you determine what is fair and Equitable from case to case. The point of the law is very simple what's good for one must be good for the next otherwise you have politicians who will decide to fire whoever they don't like.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, it's worse than that. They are destroying young kids' minds with revolutionary Marxist dogma.
Young people seem more "WOKE" than we the disappearing dinosaurs.

[jimjamuser]

Lol really .... I hardly think they have the same capital as a corporate lobbyist. I would suspect 90 % of the politician’s today are owned by several companies and or counties. I really don’t believe unions have enough money to compete.
Point well taken! Can we say "Citizens United"?

[Annie66]

No they just have sex with under age children.

That seems you're painting all those hard working, compassionate teachers who truly care for their students with a very broad brush. I think your comment, while it probably was tongue-in-cheek, was distasteful.

[ColdNoMore]

Young people seem more "WOKE" than we the disappearing dinosaurs.

And thank goodness for that.

Although, it terrifies the living daylights...out of the old dinosaurs.

[jimjamuser]

Unions got workers healthcare and $60 an hour .
But unions killed GM and Chrysler etc . you see there is no middle ground to be fair in business or public works . everyone wants MORE . you can say because of unions and over regulation , China has succeeded in taking over our manufacturing.
Japanese steel and improved manufacturing techniques were more to blame than Unions. In my humble opinion.

[Number 10 GI]

That seems you're painting all those hard working, compassionate teachers who truly care for their students with a very broad brush. I think your comment, while it probably was tongue-in-cheek, was distasteful.

No more so than painting dedicated and honest police officers as racists.

[jimjamuser]

Which unions "got workers healthcare and $60 an hour"??? Please show some factual basis for this claim. For the U.S. auto companies, a very large part of the average cost per vehicle difference is due to legacy/retiree costs, something the 'imports' aren't yet paying for. Foreign automakers have also been offered huge incentives to build, primarily in the south, which further reduced their costs.
Unions haven't "killed GM and Chrysler etc". This is a totally one-sided argument & completely exonerates the U.S. auto companies for their uninspiring design & poor business decisions from the 60's onward that concentrated on profitability to the detriment of innovation, quality and design. Unions aren't blameless in regards to the higher costs per vehicle, but dropping it all on their laps is pure BS.
Yes!

[ColdNoMore]

Japanese steel and improved manufacturing techniques were more to blame than Unions. In my humble opinion.

You are absolutely correct. :thumbup:

And while American automakers kept building junk, that got horrendous gas mileage, then instead of changing to compete with the imports they spent hundreds of millions on advertising...talking about "buy American."

[jimjamuser]

Okay - I'm going to give you a real life example that I lived through with the FOP and the union and their defense of an accused police officer. January 2019. A police officer was the second on scene of a domestic issue, I'll call him Cliff. A drunk and high woman was, let's say acting out, at her "baby daddy's" home, demanding immediate physical custody of their 5 year-old daughter. The solution decided by the on scene commander was to remove the woman from the scene. Showing a bit of compassion, he chose to relocate her rather than arrest her. Cliff, deciding not to just drive her down the street and dump her at the 7-11, because she would just walk back to the scene and start up again, offered her a ride to the metro (subway) station so she could get home. She didn't have any money, having spent it all on a taxi to take her to another county to get to the scene. Upon arriving at the station and parking under a security camera at 5:30 in the morning, the woman refused to get out of the cruiser. Cliff offers to call a friend to come get her if she didn't want to take the metro. He calls the friend (with his number blocked) and leaves voice message. He calls back a few minutes later and the friend answers. Cliff gets out of the cruiser and walks a few feet away and offers the phone to the woman -- which gets her out of the cruiser, which he immediately locks. The woman talks to her friend on the phone, with people walking by, into the station to get the metro to go to work. When she is done, she demands Cliff take her all the way home - to a county outside his jurisdiction and he refuses. She asks for money to ride the metro and he gives her a $ rather than just totally leave her stranded. She then tells him "if you leave me here, you'll regret it." And Cliff drives off. Ninety minutes later, while finishing up his shift, Cliff gets a call to come straight away to the station. Upon arrival, he is swabbed for dna, his uniform, weapon, credentials, cruiser, etc., is confiscated and he's told he's under suspension due to an accusation of 'inappropriate touching' -- the actual description is over the top, but that's the category used. Allegedly all this touching, by the woman, who was wearing long pants, occurred in the front seat and in the back seat of the cruiser, in the metro parking lot, under the camera, and while all these people were walking by, and she was under NO restraints. The woman walks into the metro station and makes the accusation and is rushed off to a hospital for all kinds of testing. This is in today's world of the phone camera, where anyone would have heard any screams or seen any kind of scuffle, etc... yet there is no one reporting anything, no one filming anything - nothing. Okay - Cliff is sent off to suspension land to guess what the H is going on; having been officer of the year the previous year and awarded a medal of valor for stepping into a shoot-out to save a toddler's life. He must undergo psych therapy, wear civilian clothes to work at a desk job, be buzzed in and out of the office, give up ALL off-duty work and sit at a desk where all he can do is answer the phone and call someone in off the street if a report needs to be taken. Metro says they have jurisdiction to investigate and his own IA can't investigate until metro is finished. Of course the hospital tests reveal all kinds of 'activity' by the woman, but none of the 4 dna's they gather match Cliff's. A multitude of illicit drugs and an elevated level of alcohol are also found. By the next day, the local media catches wind and runs out to the metro to interview random people, telling them of the broad accusation and recording their shock at such behavior by the police. This is played on tv for several days, along with teasers that say "see the evidence at 9". I have recorded all those shows, and am still waiting to see any evidence related to the case. Okay - Cliff asks for an attorney as he wants to have the woman prosecuted when it's all over 'cause he knows he didn't do anything and the investigations will bear it out. He's told he'll get an attorney if he needs one during the investigations. Jump to May - 5 months later - metro has finished it's investigation and has been unsuccessful in finding the woman so they can ask her more about her side of the story, and baby-daddy refuses to cooperate with any investigation, 'cause he's the first to call the police for help, but doesn't want to help with any investigation... stellar citizenry in action. The local prosecutor sends EVERYTHING to a grand jury if it involves police, 'cause she wants to protect her backside - forget about the police officer. And since, you guessed it, this is a white officer and an african-american woman, we better triple make sure he didn't look at her cross-eyed. The grand jury subpoena's baby-daddy who still won't cooperate, and baby-mama is still hiding out. I say tell ME where baby-daddy lives and I'll FIND baby-mama... those two are gonna meet up over that child at some point! Grand jury says the case is BS and doesn't indict. Where is the media and their follow-up reporting... crickets... crickets... the crickets are deafening. So that all happens by May. IA now does their thing and finally, in August, Cliff is returned to duty. Having lost about $50,000 in moonlighting, having been shamed by the accusations, having gotten a good case of PTSD -- he has been refused a body cam, even offered to pay for it himself and told no, only certain units can have them, and he no longer wants to be alone in any fashion with a female 'suspect' for lack of a better word. And, oh by the way, all accusations, unfounded or not, stay in the record. And here's the best prize - for both him and the taxpayer who spent over $60,000 for the investigations, hospital tests, etc., they won't prosecute the woman because it might discourage true victims from coming forward if they think they might be prosecuted. Seriously. So forgive me if I seem a bit jaded about how the police unions, etc., protect the police officer. I lived this one - Cliff is my brother and I was living there when it all happened. Sorry to take up so much space, but this experience has greatly colored my world and vision of what I see on the news and what I know goes on in the background. I know he is not the only one who has experienced such politically correct nonsense.
One adverse example does NOT a universe make. Unions work well in Germany. The US is a "melting pot" which needs to be heated and stirred more. The lowest strata of ANY ethnic group has bad examples. Look to the current tax code as a foundation for problems.

[jimjamuser]

That guy is just like the people who get up everyday and try and think of ways to sue Walmart. What am I going to do today to agitate the police and get myself on television. Even the black mayor of Buffalo called out the guy!!!!!! Kind of makes you look silly now to bring this up!!!


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/06/06/05/29283782-8394057-Buffalo_Mayor_Byron_Brown_on_Friday_said_he_would_ not_call_for_t-a-86_1591416000513.jpg

Buffalo, N.Y., Mayor Byron Brown (D) on Friday said he was told that the 75-year-old man who was pushed down by police in a viral video was a “major instigator” and an “agitator.”

“According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator,” Brown told WBEN in a radio interview.

In a graphic video shot by a WBFO journalist earlier in the week, Martin Gugino is seen slowly approaching the police until one officer tells him to move and pushes him.

A person can be heard yelling, “He’s bleeding out of his ear!” and calling out for medics. Gugino is then seen lying on his back with blood spilling from his ear.

Brown claimed that the police asked Gugino to leave the premises several times as law enforcement tried to disperse protesters after an 8 p.m. curfew.

"He was trying to spark up the crowd of people,” Brown said. “Those people were there into the darkness. Our concern is when it gets dark, there is a potential for violence. There has been vandalism. There have been fires set. There have been stores broken into and looted. According to what was reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those activities."
The 75 year old man could have been any one of us in the Villages if we found ourselves in a position where we TRUSTED Police to uphold "serve and protect" and THEY got agitated and out of control. He should have been arrested peacefully. That way he could have a Judge or jury decide his fate. Now he probably has brain damage. He probably can NOT now be rehabilitated, which is ALWAYS better for society.
Since he was given NO rights he might as well have been in China or Russia.

[ColdNoMore]

One adverse example does NOT a universe make. Unions work well in Germany. The US is a "melting pot" which needs to be heated and stirred more.

The lowest strata of ANY ethnic group has bad examples.

Look to the current tax code as a foundation for problems.

Absolutely dead on! :thumbup:

[Byte1]

The police problem is minute compared to the crime problem.
I agree with the premise that unions are bad. They served their purpose and are no longer needed, especially in the public sector. And Private sector, maybe.

[Stu from NYC]

The police problem is minute compared to the crime problem.
.

Agreed but that does not fit the agenda of some people.

[John_W]

The 75 year old man could have been any one of us in the Villages if we found ourselves in a position where we TRUSTED Police to uphold "serve and protect" and THEY got agitated and out of control...

Are you serious? You're Not REALLY serious are you??

It Couldn't of Been Me, You wouldn't find me in a position like that, maybe you will, but I'm not that STUPID!!

The REAL story is, the mayor ordered the police to enforce his curfew. They arrived on the scene, set up a line and moved ahead at a slow pace clearing the street. This bystander, ran down the street and jumped in front of the line of cops, and even though they ordered him several times to move along, he disobeyed and stood erect and was pushed back and the man took a fall that any wimp would of been proud. They should just handcuffed him and hauled his ass to jail, instead they gave him break and he refused to obey, that's called Disobeying a Police Officer's Command, that will get you in trouble.


https://img.particlenews.com/image.php?type=webp_1024x576&url=4VzEX0_0PFkblzz00

[Stu from NYC]

Are you serious? You're Not REALLY serious are you??

It Couldn't of Been Me, You wouldn't find me in a position like that, maybe you will, but I'm not that STUPID!!

The REAL story is, the mayor ordered the police to enforce his curfew. They arrived on the scene, set up a line and moved ahead at a slow pace clearing the street. This bystander, ran down the street and jumped in front of the line of cops, and even though they ordered him several times to move along, he disobeyed and stood erect and was pushed back and the man took a fall that any wimp would of been proud. They should just handcuffed him and hauled his ass to jail, instead they gave him break and he refused to obey, that's called Disobeying a Police Officer's Command, that will get you in trouble.


https://img.particlenews.com/image.php?type=webp_1024x576&url=4VzEX0_0PFkblzz00


Interesting that some people will always think the police are at fault. Why let facts get in the way.

[ColdNoMore]

Interesting that some people will always think the police are at fault. Why let facts get in the way.

Show ONE post that says..."the police are ALWAYS at fault."


Just one.


We'll wait. :popcorn:

[ColdNoMore]

Interesting that some people will always think the police are at fault. Why let facts get in the way.

Who has said that..."the police are always at fault?"

[anothersteve]

Who has said that..."the police are always at fault?"

Just to clarify it was said;

Interesting that some people will always think the police are at fault. Why let facts get in the way.

Some people "think". Why the offence?
Maybe it should have been better phrased.....
"when it's white police dealing with a black person...."the police are always at fault"
Steve

[rlcooper70]

I'm confused about government unions ... who represents the taxpayers when the unions are funding the politicians and the politicians are the ones giving raises to the government unions?





Early in my career, I was a union steward who was even sent to a week school outside of Seattle...to be "trained."

A lot of what I heard in that week, is what began making me see my particular union...in a different light.

What was hammered into us, was the fact that we were legally obligated to defend even the "problem children"...as hard as we could.

That didn't make sense to me...but the law was the law.

What I did receive, from our local union President, was some very sage advice.

His attitude was that although we were required to defend the union members, there are some that you "don't have to get up early or stay up late...in their defense."

Later on in my career, when I had worked my way up through the system and had become a senior manager, I was on the other side of the table and negotiated a number of CBA's...with three separate unions.

The old president of my union at the time when I was a steward, had retired and the new/younger group(s) (all 3 unions), did not have the same wisdom and didn't bother to differentiate between the employee that was in a hearing for the umpteenth time...and the one that simply made a mistake.

Needless to say, they were not usually happy when I was at the table, because I often knew their argument and strategy...before they even expressed it. :D

Our standard punishment for a serious rules infraction conviction...was 30 days off without pay.

Recognizing that the time off didn't just affect them, but also affected their families and family finances, I often proposed an "alternative discipline" in cases...where the employee wasn't a constant problem child.

My proposed alternative discipline consisted of determining how much money they would lose with the 30 days off and offering them to keep working, at a lower rate, that would in effect make them pay the same amount of money they would lose...but to do it over a period of up to year.

Since this allowed the employee to keep working and getting a regular paycheck, albeit less than they would normally receive... about 80% accepted this alternative discipline.

The other 20% were financially OK and were actually happy...to have the 30 day "vacation."

Anyway, I saw it as a win-win...for both sides.

I didn't have to replace the employee and the employee was able to continue to pay their bills...even if it meant that they might have to tighten their belts a bit.

My long-winded point is, that I believe we need more "out-of-the-box" thinking with police unions...if we're going to solve this issue.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[Bay Kid]

Going to be like the wild west. Everyone will be on their own.

[Stu from NYC]

[QUOTE=rlcooper70;1779568]I'm confused about government unions ... who represents the taxpayers when the unions are funding the politicians and the politicians are the ones giving raises to the government unions?

Nobody which is why a number of cities will not be able to pay the pensions owned to union members

[Two Bills]

Back in the day in UK, Fords of Dagenham workers were always on strike for more and more., an amusing story of the time was:

Union shop steward to a workers meeting.
"Good News Comrades!
We have negotiated a very good deal from management.
12 weeks paid holiday a year, another 50% pay rise, private health care for workers and families, and we have negotiated the working hours down to such a level, that we will only have to work on Wednesdays!!"
From the back of the hall a voice shouted out:
"What, every bloody Wednesday?"

[camaguey48]

Unions are there to defend the 3 percenters. Those are the ones who continually break the rules. The others want to do their job competently and safely. This Chauvin guy had 17 incidents of misconduct lodged against him and he was still on the force. How did that happen? The other three did not have the guts to stop him from hurting Mr.Floyd, who, by the way, was not a model citizen himself, but still a human being. Mr. Floyd was under control and was not a threat. Following the blue code was more important to these officers than following their moral code. I support the good police officers, the bad ones need to be found out and fired. May these four be found guilty and thrown in jail for a long, long time. To the demonstrators: demonstrate all you want, but do it peacefully. That's the key word.

[ColdNoMore]

Unions are there to defend the 3 percenters. Those are the ones who continually break the rules. The others want to do their job competently and safely. This Chauvin guy had 17 incidents of misconduct lodged against him and he was still on the force. How did that happen?

The other three did not have the guts to stop him from hurting Mr.Floyd, who, by the way, was not a model citizen himself, but still a human being. Mr. Floyd was under control and was not a threat. Following the blue code was more important to these officers than following their moral code.

I support the good police officers, the bad ones need to be found out and fired. May these four be found guilty and thrown in jail for a long, long time.

To the demonstrators: demonstrate all you want, but do it peacefully. That's the key word.

:agree:...100%

[Cybersprings]

That is absurd.

Unfortunately not. I wish it was absurd to say it was happening.

[TexaninVA]

That is absurd.

No it's accurate unfortunately.

[TexaninVA]

A more accountable police force equals a more accountable public. Think about it.

That's very profound, I think ....

[Cybersprings]

I don't believe in public sector unions at all. We should have a more direct control of our tax dollars and being able to terminate bad apples quickly should be at the forefront of that control.

I am a retired public employee. I was never a "fan" of unions. But do you think "bad apples" only exist in the bargaining unit ranks? What happens when the bad apple is in management and abuses their power to get rid of someone they claim is a "bad apple" but is really just questioning the manager's abuse? That is what the union is for. In many cases it protects the 3%. But the intent of that is to ensure that management follows its own processes (to protect others ...not sure if 97% is an accurate #). If they followed process, the union would not be able to protect the 3%. But it many cases, management does not follow its processes and the 3% are retained.

But to steer my comments back to the original topic, it is not black and white...very gray. So many times the mobs will turn on the police when they did nothing wrong, just followed the law and the rules. They have to stick together, so that when the danger comes, they know they can trust each other. But wouldn't it be great if there was some internal policing among police as well as many other groups. If you could change the culture so that you stand together publicly, and then address the problem children to get them inline or out, that would be amazing...but not holding my breath for that to happen with police, doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers or any other group.

[billethkid]

Lotta talk about the bad apples in the police force and changes needed to get rid of them

What about the "Floyd-types"? Would they be considered bad apples? Of course they would. And they would not even be the baddest apples in the group.
Yet we do not hear condemnation of blacks in general.
Yet we do not see or hear an outcry that something needs to change to assure other's rights/safety.

These issues are emotional, political, special interest driven....when an opportunity real or manufactured presents.

[Stu from NYC]

With all these police shootings and murders of unarmed citizens you would think they would find one case where the person had a clean record.

Amazing how Floyd is being nominated for sainthood.

[billethkid]

Where was all the empathy and protesting the "rampant" mistreatment the days/weeks/months/years before Floyd?

Post Floyd? The looters, rioters, special interest groups and the protestors are certainly milking the hell out of the created crisis!!!

Such hypocrites!!!

[Bay Kid]

I am so glad I am not a policeman. Thankful there are policemen. One of the hardest, most dangerous jobs in the world.

[Stu from NYC]

I am so glad I am not a policeman. Thankful there are policemen. One of the hardest, most dangerous jobs in the world.

So very true and the vast majority do their job properly.

[TOTV Team]

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