Censorship

[davem4616]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

[Stu from NYC]

Perhaps part of the problem is they do a terrible job of teaching our history in school.

It is terrible they are removing statues of people who have helped make us the country we are.

Very strangely a statue of Columbus was tossed in a lake.

[Tom52]

RI'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

Strange that general Grant has a statue at Gettysburg seeing as he was concluding the siege of Vicksburg Mississippi at that time. General George Meade was the commander of Union forces at the battle of Gettysburg.

[Number 10 GI]

Seems like they did something like this in the 1930's and 1940' in Germany, except they burned books. The USSR edited or destroyed a lot of media material that they didn't like.

[davem4616]

R

Strange that general Grant has a statue at Gettysburg seeing as he was concluding the siege of Vicksburg Mississippi at that time. General George Meade was the commander of Union forces at the battle of Gettysburg.


Tom, I stand corrected...it was a statue of Meade that represented the Union forces

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

These statues belong in a museum in an exhibition about the slave trade and the Civil War. Maybe in an entire wing dedicated to what happens when you don't embrace differences.

Columbus is irrelevant. As has been pointed out for decades now, he didn't actually discover NORTH America at all. He never set foot on this continent and he has nothing to do with North American history.

[Stu from NYC]

Columbus is irrelevant. As has been pointed out for decades now, he didn't actually discover NORTH America at all. He never set foot on this continent and he has nothing to do with North American history.

He didsnt discover NA but guess the protesters just for the thrill of it decide to toss his statue in the river. Wonder if they even know who he was.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

He didsnt discover NA but guess the protesters just for the thrill of it decide to toss his statue in the river. Wonder if they even know who he was.

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?

[Velvet]

Lol... the Communist do this type of thing so much better. They just rewrite history to say the way they think it SHOULD have happened. Then teach it at school as if it did.

[Two Bills]

By sanitising half of the history of any country to suit political ccorrectness and social trends, how do future generations learn from past mistakes?
Teach it, warts and all, and let the kids see where our leaders went wrong in the past.
Having said that, looking at the present state of the world, most of todays world leaders, all flunked their history exams!

[newgirl]

Hopefully they take it down today !!!! Sad

[Viperguy]

The bias won't stop until our education system educates. That includes primary, secondary and university systems. The reason that at home education is taking off.

[bowlingal]

will book burning be next?

[Hayek1957]

There are very few leaders and influential people in our history that have done nothing that may be regarded as reprehensible in today’s “enlightened” culture. We need to accept that people we respect have their faults regardless of their significant accomplishments.

To demonize historically significant people by contrasting their lifestyle without historical perspective is myopic. This tendency robs our society of the opportunity to appreciate the sacrifice of leaders while still appreciating the fact that they are still human.

[Stu from NYC]

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?

Our school system is doing a terrible job teaching our kids the history of our country or for that matter world history. And please notice the word all.

Why do you think that so many comments are racist?

[Two Bills]

In UK they are taking down Baden Powells (Scouts Founder) monument today.
Evidently he is no longer acceptable to certain factions.

[Stu from NYC]

By sanitising half of the history of any country to suit political ccorrectness and social trends, how do future generations learn from past mistakes?
Teach it, warts and all, and let the kids see where our leaders went wrong in the past.
Having said that, looking at the present state of the world, most of todays world leaders, all flunked their history exams!

Agreed. Our founding fathers were products of their times and many did own slaves.

Many people in many parts of the world were part of the slave trade including Africans who captured and sold people as slaves.

Unless you learn where the world was and how we reached this point how do you understand history?

[Windguy]

The bias won't stop until our education system educates. That includes primary, secondary and university systems. The reason that at home education is taking off.
What could be more biased than home schooling?

Kids are exposed to only one viewpoint—their parents. They interact only with families like their own and they are ill prepared to deal with this great melting pot known as America when they go out into the world. It sows the seeds of racism and hatred. It promotes an us versus them mentality. It’s one of the big things that is destroying our great country. It’s one of the reasons why there is so much division in our country now.

[jrg908369]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

As a southerner born and raised I always wondered why we named military bases after losing generals. And why we put up statutes to losers. Made no sense to me. I was a history major in college and a history buff and I don't see statutes of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. They are embarrassed and did something about it. I guess you are also upset that NASCAR has banned the confederate flag and all confederate stuff from their race tracks?

[Denvercane]

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?

There are no known actual portraits of Columbus.

[Windguy]

Statues of rebel soldiers are inappropriate in our parks and what not. They were traitors and should be vilified and not glorified. If you want them to serve as history lessons, put them in museums that teach about the horrors of slavery and what happens when people stress our differences more than what we have in common.

[golfing eagles]

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?

Definitely a possibility to consider.....

Here's an example of a highly educated "protester":

[Bikeracer2009]

I grew up in Richmond Va and at one time I live near Monument Avenue. I had some black friends growing up and did see things from their point of view. It was odd to see a statue of Arthur Ashe being installed not far from the Confederate statues. To me it was just history, to my friends it was a painful reminder of a time when their race was treated like property.
I would tell them that words had no power until you give it power over you and to ignore racism etc. It's easy for me to say. I could give examples one after another to share what I saw happen to my black friends throughout the years but I don't think it would help you understand what it's like living in your country that doesn't understand what it's like being black. I do see the crime, social services abuse and the other statistics whites point to. I can tell that a black child isn't born that way.

At some point our country has to take some crazy measures to try and fix what's going on. I don't have the answers but if getting rid of symbols that upset the black race and addressing racism openly helps get some healing then I'm all for it.

I'm not a historian or statistician so my opinions are not coming from an expert.

[jbrown132]

The same can be said for our universities

[camaguey48]

Lovely, just lovely.

[kanoa1kale2]

Statues of rebel soldiers are inappropriate in our parks and what not. They were traitors and should be vilified and not glorified. If you want them to serve as history lessons, put them in museums that teach about the horrors of slavery and what happens when people stress our differences more than what we have in common.

I guess that makes soldiers in our war of independence from Great Britain part of the same category. What do we do when a generation decides WWI and WWII soldiers were wrong and starts tearing down their memorials? Those who deny history are doomed to repeat it. We learn from mistakes that have been made. Civil wars have been fought since time began. The soldiers who fought in them were honorable and fought for their side. Just because they lost, they should not be vilified or hated. Perhaps in the future, we veterans in the Villages may find ourselves on the wrong side of this argument over Korean, Viet Nam and Middle Eastern wars. Once we are gone, there will be no one to refute the mob mentality that exists today. Reminds me of the Farenheit 451 movie where all books were burned so history and knowledge would disappear.

[17362]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

The schools are ran by unions. The agenda was to indoctrinate the young, not teach actual history and let us learn from it, but teach them what to think, instead of common sense. No wonder these individuals don’t have common sense and know how to weigh things out and decided for themselves.
I’m grateful that some parents are finally seeing through it and teaching at home the entire history instead of a slant towards to hate our history. Re-writing was the next step. It’s winning cause people don’t want to take initiative and look beyond their lessons. No curiosity for the truth. Just spoon fed by xxxx. That’s what they prefer.
Why else do you think that journalisms went beyond just reporting facts at the big name media? It’s all hype and slants- spoon feeding.

[Pedrocarrasco01@yahoo.com]

Seems like they did something like this in the 1930's and 1940' in Germany, except they burned books. The USSR edited or destroyed a lot of media material that they didn't like.
A Communist-Fascist trait is to erase all history, Yes Hitler burned books, Stalin toppled statues and controlled all schools teaching, any teachers that deviate from their mandate in Russia were sent to a Gulag in Germany they were taken by the Gestapo and beaten badly. In Cuba the G2 would jail and beat you badly to ensure that you would comply, all books were rewritten and all their leaders were exalted as heroes. Please don’t say “it won’t happen here” that is what the Cuban people said 70 years ago. I know, I was in Cuba then!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless America

[stadry]

[QUOTE=Windguy;1781753]What could be more biased than home schooling?

' Kids are exposed to only one viewpoint—their parents' - Is this an ' it takes a village ' post ? ? ? or an invitation to discuss home schooling bias vs public schooling bias ? ? ?
imo, it would be a terrific improvement if schools taught history as it happened, if schools taught students to think, & if schools taught objectively.

perhaps this challenge could be reworded as home schoolers are generally better able to confront life's challenges than public school graduates

as you, i'm curious why there is so much division in our country,,, is it political, racial, emotional, professional ? or is it increasing due to the generations of 'public giving' for any social need,,, destitute voters can now vote themselves $$$ if raising their voices to the right decibel in the right direction

[fdpaq0580]

By sanitising half of the history of any country to suit political ccorrectness and social trends, how do future generations learn from past mistakes?
Teach it, warts and all, and let the kids see where our leaders went wrong in the past.
Having said that, looking at the present state of the world, most of todays world leaders, all flunked their history exams!

I agree with you . Sanitized history isn't history, it is fiction.
Pick any in time in history and any culture and you will find thoughts, deeds and conditions that would be considered unacceptable in today's world. Even in today's world we can find much that needs fixing, and not just here.

[kenoc7]

There are very few leaders and influential people in our history that have done nothing that may be regarded as reprehensible in today’s “enlightened” culture. We need to accept that people we respect have their faults regardless of their significant accomplishments.

To demonize historically significant people by contrasting their lifestyle without historical perspective is myopic. This tendency robs our society of the opportunity to appreciate the sacrifice of leaders while still appreciating the fact that they are still human.

I'm not. just referring to this post but all those that criticize the removal of the glorification of men who were traitors and fought against the United States of America.

[Girlcopper]

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?
This comment is exactly what causes issues. Jumping to conclusions without knowing what the poster meant. How about it meaning that some people are just jumping into the crowd and have no clue whats going on. Its called the mob mentality

[davem4616]

In UK they are taking down Baden Powells 9Scouts Founder) monument today.
Evidently he is no longer acceptable to certain factions.


how sad to hear this

[davem4616]

As a southerner born and raised I always wondered why we named military bases after losing generals. And why we put up statutes to losers. Made no sense to me. I was a history major in college and a history buff and I don't see statutes of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. They are embarrassed and did something about it. I guess you are also upset that NASCAR has banned the confederate flag and all confederate stuff from their race tracks?


I don't watch NASCAR...never have, never will...that's not even as much fun as watching grass grow...

[MandoMan]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

I agree with you about some of this. I believe in showing things as they were or as people thought they were, even if wrong. (From what I hear, much of what Margaret Mitchell wrote about race relations was highly romanticized.) I loved “Song of the South” and the singing crows in “Dumbo.”

However, as a vet, you might like to consider this thought about the statues and military bases. Most of the Confederate generals went to West Point, and when they entered the U.S. Army, they swore solemn oaths to uphold and protect the United States of America. Then they broke their oaths, turned traitor, and took up arms against the country they had promised to protect and tried to destroy it. Why should we have these generals celebrated on our town squares? Why should traitors like Bragg and Pickett and Beauregard have their names on military bases? (And is it significant that there is no Camp Longstreet, given that he repented, became friends with Grant, and led African-American troops?)

Robert E. Lee is a distant relative of mine (through his wife), and I was born in Virginia, and some of my ancestors fought and even died for the South (though one was a captain under Sherman when they rode through Georgia). Even so, I think this is worth considering, on the basis of whether oaths matter.

[Chatbrat]

What sort term memory you'll must have, have you forgotten the constant stream of news clips depicting ISIS, destroying artifacts, temples etc.--because they deemed them unfit for the way they wanted things to be.

[Eg_cruz]

By sanitising half of the history of any country to suit political ccorrectness and social trends, how do future generations learn from past mistakes?
Teach it, warts and all, and let the kids see where our leaders went wrong in the past.
Having said that, looking at the present state of the world, most of todays world leaders, all flunked their history exams!
Agree....because those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat.

[ColdNoMore]

Statues of rebel soldiers are inappropriate in our parks and what not. They were traitors and should be vilified and not glorified. If you want them to serve as history lessons, put them in museums that teach about the horrors of slavery and what happens when people stress our differences more than what we have in common.

Exactly! :thumbup:

[karostay]

Tones of IsIs

[fastboat]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

Think about it, we're being told what "to think." The controllers are trying to change history by removing the statues and mouments recording it. As it is most millennial know little about anything prior to the Vietnam war, to them even that it ancient history. Live PD and Cops have been removed from our TV screens. Why, is someone afraid we will see life as it really is? This whole effort is how Stalin, Hitler, Castro and every other dictator came to power. It's like the Taliban blasting religious icons from the mountains in Afghanistan. That was bad THERE but it's okay to do it here. You can't change history by trying to erase it, it's still history.

[graciegirl]

Why do you wonder that? Do you think every picture and statue depicting Christopher Columbus isn't recognizable by anyone who has ever attended grade-school history classes? Or are you suggesting that people protesting against racism never attended grade-school history classes?

It really doesn't matter. IT REALLY doesn't, in the context of today and it's issues. To me what matters is lack of personal responsibility. AND empathy. Does anyone ever not smile back at you because you like or dislike Christopher Columbus? Does anyone ever not smile back at you because of your color? That began to happen to me after Trayvon Martin was killed. I didn't do anything wrong but people are mad at me.

People are using propaganda to rile up people as if it isn't bad enough. People are ignoring important stuff in order to get all het up. People are looking to get mad. You cannot legislate morality and you can't make lazy people work, but you can pass laws that at least on the face of things makes thing equal. People are gonna be grungy awful and bully weaker people and make fun of people with less and those with handicaps, and people are going to continue to talk down to nice people who worked hard and never did anything wrong but get a speeding ticket when they were 17.

People see what they want to see. Patience goes a long way to solve the problems of the world and also working for a living and saving some money for when things go down the drain so you don't have to have your hand out to the "gubmunt" or pass a fake twenty.....let alone, all should try to stay off the sauce. No matter if the sauce is too many martini's or Fentynal.

[davem4616]

I agree with you about some of this. I believe in showing things as they were or as people thought they were, even if wrong. (From what I hear, much of what Margaret Mitchell wrote about race relations was highly romanticized.) I loved “Song of the South” and the singing crows in “Dumbo.”

However, as a vet, you might like to consider this thought about the statues and military bases. Most of the Confederate generals went to West Point, and when they entered the U.S. Army, they swore solemn oaths to uphold and protect the United States of America. Then they broke their oaths, turned traitor, and took up arms against the country they had promised to protect and tried to destroy it. Why should we have these generals celebrated on our town squares? Why should traitors like Bragg and Pickett and Beauregard have their names on military bases? (And is it significant that there is no Camp Longstreet, given that he repented, became friends with Grant, and led African-American troops?)

Robert E. Lee is a distant relative of mine (through his wife), and I was born in Virginia, and some of my ancestors fought and even died for the South (though one was a captain under Sherman when they rode through Georgia). Even so, I think this is worth considering, on the basis of whether oaths matter.



Choro&Swing, I also am a Vet and I totally agree with your comment about honoring oaths/pledges/commitments.

I wonder how many of today's demonstrators would actually 'answer the call' like our forefathers did in WWII and Korea and so many of us did during the Viet Nam era on our own or when our number was called?

I'm guessing that these protestors have all made the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag at some point during their young lives.

My hope is that they are never 'tested'...

[ldivens]

It amazes me the people opposed to the destruction of history will not start to protest. The squeaky wheel gets oiled and the people who yell the loudest get their way. We are all Americans and history cannot be changed why do we want to change it now!

[Singerlady]

Perhaps part of the problem is they do a terrible job of teaching our history in school.

It is terrible they are removing statues of people who have helped make us the country we are.

Very strangely a statue of Columbus was tossed in a lake.

As a former teacher, it is not that they do a poor job teaching history in school. When you are taught at home by parents who teach you these issues it is bound to be ingrained in you. Students will usually learn the information for the test but it does not mean that they really believe those things. Speaking from many years of experience…

[Two Bills]

Cecil John Rhodes has a statue at Oxford University, and he too has fallen foul of the PC protest.
His statue is to be removed.
However, no one is giving up their Rhodes Scholarships, the oldest, and most prestigeous scholarship at the university in protest, and I am pretty sure, refusing one in the future!!

[Singerlady]

The bias won't stop until our education system educates. That includes primary, secondary and university systems. The reason that at home education is taking off.

That could be dangerous as well...see my other comment.

[Singerlady]

Our school system is doing a terrible job teaching our kids the history of our country or for that matter world history. And please notice the word all.

Why do you think that so many comments are racist?

As a former teacher with many years of experience it is not that the schools are not teaching the students well. The students learn the material for the test but that does not mean that they necessarily believe it. Parents teach their ideals to their children and those beliefs are ingrained in those children. We can only do what we can do with the children. History teachers have them at most 50 minutes per day (high school). How many minutes do they spend with their parents?

[dlb8159@yahoo.com]

What’s next.....on censorship, burning books, closing libraries?

[regas56]

If we rid ourselves of all the proof of the atrocities of our past then in the future we will know longer have the reminders or the proof that they truly did happen.. In today's world if you can't prove it most will argue it didn't happen. What then pray tell will we use as our crutch or our excuse for the failures we're sure to face? If we ask WHY do you want to destroy that statue or burn that book the answer is always, we no longer want the memory of our oppression, yet you passionately continue to support the very party that willingly went to war, killed their own brothers, fathers or sons and died by the 100's of 1000's to keep you oppressed. How does that not remind you of your past oppression?

[MD5443]

It's terrible that they are destroying all of our National Monuments especially sad is the destruction of memorials honoring our Veterans! 🇺🇸 I'm concerned also about Mt. Vernon which has been preserved all these years!! Scary times!! 🙏

[Number 10 GI]

As a former teacher with many years of experience it is not that the schools are not teaching the students well. The students learn the material for the test but that does not mean that they necessarily believe it. Parents teach their ideals to their children and those beliefs are ingrained in those children. We can only do what we can do with the children. History teachers have them at most 50 minutes per day (high school). How many minutes do they spend with their parents?

Schools should get back to teaching the basics, reading, writing and math. Teachers that try to indoctrinate young minds in any ideology should be fired and teaching certificate revoked. Schools that allow this activity should be decertified and the entire decision making staff fired.

[valuemkt]

Yes, let's burn all the books. Forget our history.. Which President should we start with . or shall we conclude we really don;t need a government .. if we dont need police, might as well ditch the constitution - it was just slapped together by a bunch of racist white men anyway. Wait, wasn't there a book named Fahrenheit 451 ??

Just remember, those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[LG999]

I dont see how or why opinions would be changed unless and until schools do. Children are not taught American history or civics in school. How can people vote when they have not been taught how our country actually works and why. I do not know if they are taught world history where they would learn the importance of the world wars. Instead, children are taught to be ashamed of themselves and of the US. Therefore it is reasonable to expect them to dismantle it.

[d and k kertesz]

I agree with you about some of this. I believe in showing things as they were or as people thought they were, even if wrong. (From what I hear, much of what Margaret Mitchell wrote about race relations was highly romanticized.) I loved “Song of the South” and the singing crows in “Dumbo.”

However, as a vet, you might like to consider this thought about the statues and military bases. Most of the Confederate generals went to West Point, and when they entered the U.S. Army, they swore solemn oaths to uphold and protect the United States of America. Then they broke their oaths, turned traitor, and took up arms against the country they had promised to protect and tried to destroy it. Why should we have these generals celebrated on our town squares? Why should traitors like Bragg and Pickett and Beauregard have their names on military bases? (And is it significant that there is no Camp Longstreet, given that he repented, became friends with Grant, and led African-American troops?)

Robert E. Lee is a distant relative of mine (through his wife), and I was born in Virginia, and some of my ancestors fought and even died for the South (though one was a captain under Sherman when they rode through Georgia). Even so, I think this is worth considering, on the basis of whether oaths matter.
Like taking an oath to uphold the Constitution!

[BaylorBear]

Statues of rebel soldiers are inappropriate in our parks and what not. They were traitors and should be vilified and not glorified. If you want them to serve as history lessons, put them in museums that teach about the horrors of slavery and what happens when people stress our differences more than what we have in common.

At one time the south was its own country. It no longer is, but it is still a part of their collective history. Try not to be quite so judgmental and unpleasant.

[Jerry Leinsing]

I answered the call in 1966 and joined the NH Air National Guard while still in college. So that meant put of graduation and devote some time helping our country with the war effort...whether I agreed if we should be in this war or not. We were told we weren’t allowed to wear our uniforms off base and when we did people called us baby killers. I put in an extra year and came out in 1973. Even though I wore the uniform, had the Vietnam ribbon, and worked on the aircraft sending supplies over seas, I am not considered a Vet. The American Legion says I am not a vet...But thank you for your service. The Veterans Administration says I am not a vet but thank you for your service. Why? Not a day of Active Duty service on my DD214. What? Thank you for your service...now stop complaining. Inside I did my part...outside I am embarrassed. Hard to forget.

[jimjamuser]

These statues belong in a museum in an exhibition about the slave trade and the Civil War. Maybe in an entire wing dedicated to what happens when you don't embrace differences.

Columbus is irrelevant. As has been pointed out for decades now, he didn't actually discover NORTH America at all. He never set foot on this continent and he has nothing to do with North American history.
That is a good post. I would like to add my opinion (worth 2 cents). Am agnostic about the statues. But like to add that it believed that the Vikings set foot on North America 1st. Also, Asian people crossed the land bridge (now the Bering Strait) into Alaska then to Ca., the West and then the east. Then became named Indians and redmen, and etc...blah..blah. So, my opinion is that they were the 1st.
The Vikings and the Indians had no one person like Columbus who could be commemorated with a statue. Plus he was European, which was the dominant area at the time. The History of America was written by the winning or dominate culture. So, US History picked one person to focus on and it was Columbus.

[sloanst]

Fine, tear down all of the statues, burn all of the books that reference the Civil War. Reduce that history to the spoke word only. Some generation in the future will relegate those stories as a myth on the level of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny because there would be no proof it ever occurred. Then the word "racist" will have no meaning and no power.

[smacquart]

Glorifying past atrocities and the men who made them is not the way to move forward, but we must never forget them in order for us to change for the better of our country. Please help toward making a better America. Thank you.

[jimjamuser]

will book burning be next?
A lot of what's happening today reminds me of the movie "Big Brother". Hate the Eurasians!!!!

[jimjamuser]

There are very few leaders and influential people in our history that have done nothing that may be regarded as reprehensible in today’s “enlightened” culture. We need to accept that people we respect have their faults regardless of their significant accomplishments.

To demonize historically significant people by contrasting their lifestyle without historical perspective is myopic. This tendency robs our society of the opportunity to appreciate the sacrifice of leaders while still appreciating the fact that they are still human.
Well thought out post. Kudos.

[GoodLife]

Agreed. Our founding fathers were products of their times and many did own slaves.

Many people in many parts of the world were part of the slave trade including Africans who captured and sold people as slaves.

Unless you learn where the world was and how we reached this point how do you understand history?

Slavery existed in the New World long before Europeans arrived. Native Americans conquered neighboring tribes and made them their slaves.

Looks like we're going to have to tear down any statues of them as well. :icon_wink:

[jimjamuser]

What could be more biased than home schooling?

Kids are exposed to only one viewpoint—their parents. They interact only with families like their own and they are ill prepared to deal with this great melting pot known as America when they go out into the world. It sows the seeds of racism and hatred. It promotes an us versus them mentality. It’s one of the big things that is destroying our great country. It’s one of the reasons why there is so much division in our country now.
I agree with that. Staying dry was easy when Bobby sang the blues.

[collie1228]

I believe that if I had the opportunity to attend one day of "liberal arts" classes in any major university in this country, I would be flabbergasted at what the radical, far left wing professors are teaching our children. Academia at the high school and college levels in this country have been taken over and dominated by a left wing ideology that doesn't want to change this country; it wants a revolution. And it's in position to make it happen, not caring a whit about the constitution. And one of the most effective means they have to effect their revolution is in the compliant media, where certain voices and opinions are simply not tolerated (see New York Times, op ed by Sen. Tom Cotton).

[Neils]

Politics politics The world turns

Next the future Native American rioters will tear down MLK statues and rename the streets again. They will demand to be paid for their stolen land from both white and black americans.

[Joe C.]

How about we all riot, loot, burn and protest against political correctness?

[Singerlady]

As a southerner born and raised I always wondered why we named military bases after losing generals. And why we put up statutes to losers. Made no sense to me. I was a history major in college and a history buff and I don't see statutes of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. They are embarrassed and did something about it. I guess you are also upset that NASCAR has banned the confederate flag and all confederate stuff from their race tracks?

When I was in Germany in 1977 at a bazaar at an Army Base, I was shocked
to see framed pictures of Hitler being sold. I asked my sister, her husband was in the military, and she told me that people buy them ‘lest we forget’. Don’t know if or where they hung them. I was shocked.

[jimjamuser]

I would not consider them as TRAITORS. They were products of their environment. They thought they were right. I am agnostic toward the question of their being traitors or patriots/heroes. They were products of their time and birthplace. ALL humans are (in the past or today). The philosophy----child is father to the man----applies here, I believe.

[PHILLY RICHARD]

For me, next is Happy Hour.
The entire world is going insane. I give up!

[Cranford61]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next?? What’s next?? Slave owner George Washington will become a pariah. Washington DC will be renamed “Justicetown” and the mall will become BLM Mall. The White House will be repainted in a blend of rainbow colors, brown and black with white window trim. Every town will have a George Floyd Boulevard that intersects with MLK Boulevard. The privileged in thIs new awakened society will be stripped of their ill gotten gains. A new political party, the Boko Hogan will supersede the Conservative Democratic Party. As Obama declared, “new America will be brown” sic.

[NoMoSno]

I guess they should be burning all the dollar bills that are offensive.

[Buckeye Bob]

I'm not. just referring to this post but all those that criticize the removal of the glorification of men who were traitors and fought against the United States of America.

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”



“How could you make appeal to the future when not a trace of you, not even an anonymous word scribbled on a piece of paper, could physically survive?”



“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”



“Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense.”



“We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it.”



--1984 (George Orwell)

[cassjax2]

Personally I do not understand why the removal of statues, etc., is happening. It is our history and it makes me angry that this is happening.

[Singerlady]

I dont see how or why opinions would be changed unless and until schools do. Children are not taught American history or civics in school. How can people vote when they have not been taught how our country actually works and why. I do not know if they are taught world history where they would learn the importance of the world wars. Instead, children are taught to be ashamed of themselves and of the US. Therefore it is reasonable to expect them to dismantle it.

Former teacher here....in the state I taught in, students ARE taught American History (required in junior year), required to pass a Constitution test twice (In order to graduate) before High school graduation (8th grade and 11th grade). Information is not shoved down their throats. They have books to read, papers to write, debates and discussions. The problem with history is ....there is not enough time in any one year of curriculum to teach EVERYTHING. And, every day/week/month/year, etc....more information is ‘added’ to history! Plus, there is no national framework with what is to be taught in each grade. It’s a state by state curriculum.

[Singerlady]

I believe that if I had the opportunity to attend one day of "liberal arts" classes in any major university in this country, I would be flabbergasted at what the radical, far left wing professors are teaching our children. Academia at the high school and college levels in this country have been taken over and dominated by a left wing ideology that doesn't want to change this country; it wants a revolution. And it's in position to make it happen, not caring a whit about the constitution. And one of the most effective means they have to effect their revolution is in the compliant media, where certain voices and opinions are simply not tolerated (see New York Times, op ed by Sen. Tom Cotton).

Wow...are you a teacher? Did you attend college? Not ALL teachers/college professors are as you describe. Too broad a statement.

[bpascani]

I don't thing American History or World History are taught in jr or high school anymore, not even civics...oddly enough, social studies is!!

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

I don’t mind a few statues honoring the common southern soldier , but the statues of generals and southern political leaders should never be in a public place, put them in a private museum for a teaching moment . Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee should have been hanged or spent long years in prison for the evil destruction they caused, so rich men could go on living a lifestyle off cheap labor . No other country in the world would honor the traitors in there countries like we do. Walk through any town in New England , and look at the long list of deaths caused by the so called Noble Cause of the Confederacy.

[jimjamuser]

I grew up in Richmond Va and at one time I live near Monument Avenue. I had some black friends growing up and did see things from their point of view. It was odd to see a statue of Arthur Ashe being installed not far from the Confederate statues. To me it was just history, to my friends it was a painful reminder of a time when their race was treated like property.
I would tell them that words had no power until you give it power over you and to ignore racism etc. It's easy for me to say. I could give examples one after another to share what I saw happen to my black friends throughout the years but I don't think it would help you understand what it's like living in your country that doesn't understand what it's like being black. I do see the crime, social services abuse and the other statistics whites point to. I can tell that a black child isn't born that way.

At some point our country has to take some crazy measures to try and fix what's going on. I don't have the answers but if getting rid of symbols that upset the black race and addressing racism openly helps get some healing then I'm all for it.

I'm not a historian or statistician so my opinions are not coming from an expert.
Great post! As to answers, I have multiple suggestions. Around 1965 civil rights legislation advanced social integration. A big problem was not legislating for ALL new neighborhood/developments needed to have rentals and houses filled by people in the % proportion that the nearby older city and area had. If 15% Black then they ONLY get 15% of the new house. Then 70 or whatever % would be White. And then Asian and Brown and etc. The point being the '60s was a great time to REALLY integrate and blend. It did NOT happen. That was a HUGE social failure and opportunity. It haunts us today. we have white ghettos and black ghettos
in many cities. The alternative of busing cost too much and accomplished too little. Busing lead to privileged charter schools and home schooling, again too costly in resources and social stability.
I have many other solution-like to look at Europe for their better social solution. Like strong unions in Germany yet little strife between unions and managemen/owners. Germany makes better automobiles than the US. Why not give them some credit and mimic that which they do right. Their is to much ethno-centricity and jingoism clouding our eyes. .....sermon over, thank you.

[jimjamuser]

A Communist-Fascist trait is to erase all history, Yes Hitler burned books, Stalin toppled statues and controlled all schools teaching, any teachers that deviate from their mandate in Russia were sent to a Gulag in Germany they were taken by the Gestapo and beaten badly. In Cuba the G2 would jail and beat you badly to ensure that you would comply, all books were rewritten and all their leaders were exalted as heroes. Please don’t say “it won’t happen here” that is what the Cuban people said 70 years ago. I know, I was in Cuba then!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless America
Good for you. I lived in Miami for a while. Cubans are smart, beautiful people.

[Byte1]

That is a good post. I would like to add my opinion (worth 2 cents). Am agnostic about the statues. But like to add that it believed that the Vikings set foot on North America 1st. Also, Asian people crossed the land bridge (now the Bering Strait) into Alaska then to Ca., the West and then the east. Then became named Indians and redmen, and etc...blah..blah. So, my opinion is that they were the 1st.
The Vikings and the Indians had no one person like Columbus who could be commemorated with a statue. Plus he was European, which was the dominant area at the time. The History of America was written by the winning or dominate culture. So, US History picked one person to focus on and it was Columbus.

Good post. I would like to suggest that Columbus is recognized as being the first in his world (Europe) to discover the New World, not the first to venture into what is now known as America. And I do believe that I recall some place up North where there is mention, or a monument that suggests that the Vikings (Northsmen?) were early explorers on this continent. I also was taught that Asians (?) migrated to this continent when the continents were connected and became what we now call American Indians, or for those that are PC, indigenous natives. American history is fascinating and if taught by a good teacher, does not have to be embarrassing. Our fore fathers thought they were doing a good thing, regardless of how we see it now. It should not be changed if we are to learn how to correct our current conduct. The TRUTH should not hurt but it should lead to enlightenment.

[Byte1]

Good for you. I lived in Miami for a while. Cubans are smart, beautiful people.

And I love their version of the empanada. :coolsmiley:

[jimjamuser]

ditto that

[cathy34787]

I think it’s interesting that my grandchildren are colorblind and that they acquired that attitude from their parents. Schools teach nothing but how to pass tests that are state mandated. There is no context today for what happened in the past. It’s shameful actually.

[Byte1]

As a southerner born and raised I always wondered why we named military bases after losing generals. And why we put up statutes to losers. Made no sense to me. I was a history major in college and a history buff and I don't see statutes of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. They are embarrassed and did something about it. I guess you are also upset that NASCAR has banned the confederate flag and all confederate stuff from their race tracks?

If losers are bad, does that mean that we should take Gen. Custer out of our history books? Perhaps we should never speak of Sitting Bull again? Didn't we lose something like 50,000 American casualties in the battle of Gettysburg?
Just being facetious, but it is my opinion that we leave history alone and use it to learn from it. If statues of slave owners bother some as being embarrassing, then perhaps wearing African colors by those that had ancestors that were sold into slavery by Africans should also be avoided? Just a thought, not attempting to insult anyone.

[jimjamuser]

If we rid ourselves of all the proof of the atrocities of our past then in the future we will know longer have the reminders or the proof that they truly did happen.. In today's world if you can't prove it most will argue it didn't happen. What then pray tell will we use as our crutch or our excuse for the failures we're sure to face? If we ask WHY do you want to destroy that statue or burn that book the answer is always, we no longer want the memory of our oppression, yet you passionately continue to support the very party that willingly went to war, killed their own brothers, fathers or sons and died by the 100's of 1000's to keep you oppressed. How does that not remind you of your past oppression?
Can you say beware the military-industrial complex? Dwight D. said it and then people forgot it I say--Beware the all-volunteer Military. It could become mercenary and bite US society into something we would NOT LIKE!

[Byte1]

Great post! As to answers, I have multiple suggestions. Around 1965 civil rights legislation advanced social integration. A big problem was not legislating for ALL new neighborhood/developments needed to have rentals and houses filled by people in the % proportion that the nearby older city and area had. If 15% Black then they ONLY get 15% of the new house. Then 70 or whatever % would be White. And then Asian and Brown and etc. The point being the '60s was a great time to REALLY integrate and blend. It did NOT happen. That was a HUGE social failure and opportunity. It haunts us today. we have white ghettos and black ghettos
in many cities. The alternative of busing cost too much and accomplished too little. Busing lead to privileged charter schools and home schooling, again too costly in resources and social stability.
I have many other solution-like to look at Europe for their better social solution. Like strong unions in Germany yet little strife between unions and managemen/owners. Germany makes better automobiles than the US. Why not give them some credit and mimic that which they do right. Their is to much ethno-centricity and jingoism clouding our eyes. .....sermon over, thank you.

It seems to me that we had a lot to do with rebuilding Germany after the war.

I do not see unions as being any answer today. They had their day, but not anymore.

[jimjamuser]

I answered the call in 1966 and joined the NH Air National Guard while still in college. So that meant put of graduation and devote some time helping our country with the war effort...whether I agreed if we should be in this war or not. We were told we weren’t allowed to wear our uniforms off base and when we did people called us baby killers. I put in an extra year and came out in 1973. Even though I wore the uniform, had the Vietnam ribbon, and worked on the aircraft sending supplies over seas, I am not considered a Vet. The American Legion says I am not a vet...But thank you for your service. The Veterans Administration says I am not a vet but thank you for your service. Why? Not a day of Active Duty service on my DD214. What? Thank you for your service...now stop complaining. Inside I did my part...outside I am embarrassed. Hard to forget.
Sorry hombre, that is a rip-off. Like a "catch 22".

[Ajiveson]

I don’t understand the tie in of not wanting to glorify the past and serving in the armed forces.

[ALadysMom]

Lol... the Communist do this type of thing so much better. They just rewrite history to say the way they think it SHOULD have happened. Then teach it at school as if it did.

Stay tuned. That’s next.

[jimjamuser]

It seems to me that we had a lot to do with rebuilding Germany after the war.

I do not see unions as being any answer today. They had their day, but not anymore.
That could? be correct about OUR unions, but THEIR unions ??? I never lived in Germany, but I have read about them. My general statement was for the US to be able to adopt the best parts of European society and infuse it with the best parts of our society. Finland and Sweden have good ideas also. Norway Has have zero incidents of Police killing any citizen in about 10 years.

[Bellavita]

When you think like a black person could be the answer.

It always amazes me that racists believe the civil war was about states rights. IT was about slavery and the right to own a human being. IT was for the North a fight to save the nation. The South seceding from the United States of America was treason.

No one puts up monuments for losers. They lost, they fought and lost.
Under your notion we should have a statue of Hitler, he lost?
Lets put up a few monuments for the Vietnamize Generals here in America because they lost.
How about we put up monuments for all losers.
Lets give out rings to the losers of professional sports after all they fought bravely to win the title.
Statues of confederate losers are to intimidate black people, pure and simple and it perpetuates hate. Like flying the confederate flag.
The Whitest sport in America NASCAR just banned confederate flags, kudos to them. There is no place to condone support of the confederacy, traders and slave owners. Period.
So yeah, as far as I am concerned Gen Lee had a chance to fight for the right side he choose poorly and he lost, rip down his statue in Gettysburg and promote the winners, blow up the side of Stone Mountain and stop paying homage to losers and traitors.

When you argue for these symbols you are part of the problem and not a good study of history.

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

Put them in museums or private property for teaching moment and that if you think schools aren’t doing enough we all can pass on the history My mother took me around Boston and told me stories I . knew quite a bit of history before I went to school Traitors to this country should not be honored on there birthday I love ft Bragg I trained and operated many places In the world from there first as a soldier and later as a civilian . There are plenty of American hero’s that the fort could be named for not for a trailer. I can think of many men I knew personality soldier and civilian who died in some of the worst hell holes in the world who would look good up there at the gate way

[Rosebud1949]

You cannot and should not try to eradicate history.. but try to learn from it. However changing, removing, and renaming Forts, Bases and Statues etc will not change the divide between north and south, and B & W... you must meet in the middle. The future is what matters

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

Sorry for your problem but you joined a state national guard and like many of my friends who were lucky enough to get in probably relieved as they were. It got harder and harder as the war went on to get into the guard. I thank you for your service and no disrespect but if you wanted to be a veteran you could have joined , all the services we’re happily accepting

[ALadysMom]

As a southerner born and raised I always wondered why we named military bases after losing generals. And why we put up statutes to losers. Made no sense to me. I was a history major in college and a history buff and I don't see statutes of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy. They are embarrassed and did something about it. I guess you are also upset that NASCAR has banned the confederate flag and all confederate stuff from their race tracks?

Most people would agree that glorification the confederate flag was and is insensitive and wrong.

I think the earlier post about the relocating statues & other historical public art to a museum or another place where the person’s historical significance can be learned within the broader context of that period would much be better for future generations than destroying them. We risk eradicating future knowledge of the good, along with all of the bad. Future generations may be condemned to relive the past because of their ignorance. They cannot learn from what they do not know. It’s a shame that today’s young so much to learn about human imperfection & sin as well as about peace, forgiveness & respect. It’s easy for all of us to judge past transgressors without even attempting to put ourselves in their shoes.it’s not so easy to recognize our own faults and change ourselves. BTW some black people are far more racist than those the white privilege they condemn. Unfortunately racism and superficial judgment of others who are different is not a unique characteristic exclusive to the white race.

Ironically, the foundational American ideals of respect & justice for all is what many of our historical leaders imperfectly defended, earning them a bronze or marble likeness.

[sallybowron]

My son lives in the Lake Calhoun region in Minneapolis. A few years ago they changed the name of Lake Calhoun to some Indian name because President Calhoun was a slave trader. Talk about censorship!

[Number 10 GI]

As a former teacher with many years of experience it is not that the schools are not teaching the students well. The students learn the material for the test but that does not mean that they necessarily believe it. Parents teach their ideals to their children and those beliefs are ingrained in those children. We can only do what we can do with the children. History teachers have them at most 50 minutes per day (high school). How many minutes do they spend with their parents?

Yes, the Nazis had the Hitler Youth and the Soviets had Komsomol that indoctrinated the young people in what was right and just.

[ALadysMom]

In many places, the South tends to cling to glorified representations of the civil war seemingly without consideration to the continuing negativity & pain slavery has actually caused but the ownership & oppression of others wasn’t uniquely perpetrated by male white colonial Americans. But we are condoning & perpetuating a falsely myopic perspective of human history now. Slaves historically were not always black. Jews & some Eastern Europeans come to mind as well as historically indentured or oppressed women and children. It’s too easy to focus on one situation and ignore the bigger picture.

Imagine if there were prolific public art or statues paying homage to England’s King George or to Spain or Mexico in locales that they previously owned and ruled before they lost them in wars or by purchases pre-America.

Truthfully, much of the South’s public art symbolism is weird & offensive to me, kind of like “the last great act of defiance!”

Do we know what the Cherokee Trail of Tears was? Do we actively rectify the perpetual—sometimes violent—oppression of women?

Why do the rioters violently destroy other’s property, with reckless disregard for others safety, yet they are ironically supposed to be protesting oppressive unjust violence.

[CatskillBill]

Apparently students aren't learning much about history. See the videos below.
It's really unbelievable that these people are so dumb.
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Talking with Millennials - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oHwaSs0HsE)
Some Americans are ignorant and proud (S1E90) How much History do they know? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoUSx7RF-28)


I dont see how or why opinions would be changed unless and until schools do. Children are not taught American history or civics in school. How can people vote when they have not been taught how our country actually works and why. I do not know if they are taught world history where they would learn the importance of the world wars. Instead, children are taught to be ashamed of themselves and of the US. Therefore it is reasonable to expect them to dismantle it.

[Number 10 GI]

Apparently students aren't learning much about history. See the videos below.
It's really unbelievable that these people are so dumb.
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Talking with Millennials - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oHwaSs0HsE)
Some Americans are ignorant and proud (S1E90) How much History do they know? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoUSx7RF-28)

Our educational system is top notch! We rank 14th in the world, if I was an educator I'd go hide in a cave.

[Byte1]

Statues of rebel soldiers are inappropriate in our parks and what not. They were traitors and should be vilified and not glorified. If you want them to serve as history lessons, put them in museums that teach about the horrors of slavery and what happens when people stress our differences more than what we have in common.

Interesting. Maybe we should have Federal Laws to mandate what is permissible and what is not when expressing 1st Amendment Rights. We need to know exactly what we are allowed to have in our parks. The other day, I passed a pond in The Villages where I could only see white birds, and not one brown one. Shame on them, not being inclusive.
I remember when AG Lynch wanted to have a law against "hate speech" so that if one didn't like what another was saying, they could be arrested for "hate speech." Can't wait to see what new "ideas" the PC culture comes up with next. This is exciting, isn't it?

[Byte1]

Slavery existed in the New World long before Europeans arrived. Native Americans conquered neighboring tribes and made them their slaves.

Looks like we're going to have to tear down any statues of them as well. :icon_wink:

Totem poles must be eliminated, ASAP!

[Mickedamouse24]

By act of Congress in 1958 all soldiers/sailors who were members of The Confederacy are US Veterans and enjoy the same status as all members of the US Military throughout history!

[ALadysMom]

I dont see how or why opinions would be changed unless and until schools do. Children are not taught American history or civics in school. How can people vote when they have not been taught how our country actually works and why. I do not know if they are taught world history where they would learn the importance of the world wars. Instead, children are taught to be ashamed of themselves and of the US. Therefore it is reasonable to expect them to dismantle it.

True story: When my son was in college he was required to go to a tiny local history museum. He needed a ride so I went with him while visiting. He had been raised with good morals & ethics, an honor student in the public schools. There was a little exhibit on the historical contributions of American women which showed inventions, Rosie the riveter, and the hard work & sacrifices of raising babies on the farm, etc. My son turns to me—his Mom—and says, “why did they waste space on this? Women have contributed very little. They should have a real history exhibit, like one about the wars.” I nearly collapsed. He is a caring, respectful (but obviously privileged) young man who did not even recognize how disrespectful, hurtful and wrong his indoctrination was. He explained that his history classes had focused exclusively on important events, especially on wars, because they had been such pivotal events in history. (Insert sad sigh here) I knew he was being accurate & honest but it was still painful to me. We went home & watched “What Women Want” with Mel Gibson for insightful humor.

Our kids’ elementary school tried to teach inclusion for kids with disabilities. Each able-bodied student took on a physical disability for a week then wrote a paper about the hardships & other surprises they encountered. It was transformative and reduced the bullying of disabled kids.

In a very similar way, it’s a shame we don’t better educate policemen about the way they are perceived. Training could let them become compassionate after seeing what it is like for awhile.

History shouldn’t be a tribute to atrocities and bad actors but we need to learn from them. What if we expressed gratitude that we have evolved past those awful times? A living history museum provides a detailed reminder that none of us who is living now can really understand what life was like back in the day so we should be reluctant to judge.

Negativity and destruction won’t incubate positive, lasting change. That’s why leaders like Martin Luther King and Billy Graham are so respected & revered. They got it. Positive change must come peaceably to last.

[ALadysMom]

By act of Congress in 1958 all soldiers/sailors who were members of The Confederacy are US Veterans and enjoy the same status as all members of the US Military throughout history!

Newsflash: That was the outcome of the Civil War. ONE United States of America.

[Jaffreyboy]

Lets ask all the parents who, out of necessity and not choice, have HAD to "home-school" for the last 3 months if they are anxious to keep up that responsibility in the fall. Home schooling falls short of a comprehensive education in so many ways it is deleterious to children. Give public school teachers the credit and respect they deserve.

[ALadysMom]

Politics politics The world turns

Next the future Native American rioters will tear down MLK statues and rename the streets again. They will demand to be paid for their stolen land from both white and black americans.

Token Reparations and Reservations are nothing to joke about. Did you know that white men forcibly took native children away from their mothers & families to “re-educate” (read that: indoctrinate) them in “civilized culture.” Sounds a lot like an earlier version of the present Muslim re-education by the Chinese, doesn’t it? That way the native children would not be taught their rightful cultural legacy and would be taught European customs , values and English.

Xinjiang re-education camps - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps)

Once American history is scrubbed, our progeny may not even realize how redundant their errors will be.

[ALadysMom]

Lets ask all the parents who, out of necessity and not choice, have HAD to "home-school" for the last 3 months if they are anxious to keep up that responsibility in the fall. Home schooling falls short of a comprehensive education in so many ways it is deleterious to children. Give public school teachers the credit and respect they deserve.

This is off-topic for this thread.

But thankfully American parents are responsible for raising their children, it does not require a village’s consensus. BTW I am grateful to all of our educators. They are very under appreciated but not infallible. ‘One size fits all’ doesn’t work well for clothing nor for education.

[ALadysMom]

...I have many other solution-like to look at Europe for their better social solution. Like strong unions in Germany yet little strife between unions and managemen/owners. Germany makes better automobiles than the US. Why not give them some credit and mimic that which they do right. Their is to much ethno-centricity and jingoism clouding our eyes. .....sermon over, thank you.[/QUOTE]

If Europe and Germany are so superior, why waste your time & resources in America?

[jimbomaybe]

yes by all means let the state decide what your children should know and think and some day report their parents for improper thinking

[Lindsyburnsy]

Any and all references to suppression of anybody is indeed a part of our history and thereby belongs in historical museums and history books. It’s a tragedy to see these things damaged or destroyed when the municipalities could have removed them and used them for educational purposes. Remember the Confederates lost and for good reason.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Thank you!

[ColdNoMore]

Any and all references to suppression of anybody is indeed a part of our history and thereby belongs in historical museums and history books. It’s a tragedy to see these things damaged or destroyed when the municipalities could have removed them and used them for educational purposes. Remember the Confederates lost and for good reason.

I've said the same things...for a long time.

Keep those monuments and statues (even though most of them were erected decades after the Civil War, to try and intimidate blacks) and put them in a location where every school can make field trips...and students can be told the truth of why they exist. :thumbup:

[jimbomaybe]

Exactly! :thumbup:

The colonist were traitors as well,just ask King George, at the time of the civil war states rights were a very big thing, reading the contemporary literature I find it hard to imagine any state would have joined the union if they thought it could not leave it , i am certainly not saying slavery was in any way acceptable but putting in context. It was a matter of time before slavery fell of its own weight depending just how long it might have been better that way considering the cost

[Stu from NYC]

as far as problems in the black community Dr Williams has some thoughts
The True Plight of Black Americans
By... - Walter E. Williams | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2983548751734689&id=215204795235779&__tn__=K-R)

That was an excellent and thought piece he wrote. He should be a leader of the black community.

[ColdNoMore]

The bias won't stop until our education system educates. That includes primary, secondary and university systems. The reason that at home education is taking off.

Yeah, that's the answer.

Make sure children don't have the opportunity to be exposed to a variety of viewpoints and history that maybe the parent(s)...don't want to acknowledge.

It's been known forever, that if you want to brainwash someone, start when they're young...and minimize the input they receive.

That should work out real well...for future generations. :oops:

[ALadysMom]

The colonist were traitors as well,just ask King George, at the time of the civil war states rights were a very big thing, reading the contemporary literature I find it hard to imagine any state would have joined the union if they thought it could not leave it , i am certainly not saying slavery was in any way acceptable but putting in context. It was a matter of time before slavery fell of its own weight depending just how long it might have been better that way considering the cost

Isn’t it stunning that Europe also had African slaves yet there is rarely any mention of the pervasiveness of it internationally. Their shared history is the basis for the recent solidarity protests abroad. Slavery was not exclusively a white Colonial American phenomenon yet white Americans believe we alone carry the guilt. Oppression and prejudice is real but it is not only dealt to blacks. The strife will only end when we all have respect for the sanctity and dignity of all human life. No one is more valuable than another. The violent destruction of statues and looting of commercial enterprises certainly won’t cause LESS prejudice.

[Number 10 GI]

Lets ask all the parents who, out of necessity and not choice, have HAD to "home-school" for the last 3 months if they are anxious to keep up that responsibility in the fall. Home schooling falls short of a comprehensive education in so many ways it is deleterious to children. Give public school teachers the credit and respect they deserve.

The US is rated 14th in the world for education, doesn't sound very comprehensive to me. Friends of ours have 6 children, all home schooled. The oldest girl was accepted to college but declined to start her own business and has done very well. The oldest boy has a scholarship for college and starts this year. The rest of the kids have excellent grades as they are monitored by the state. They have like age friends in their neighborhood so they are experiencing socializing with other children.

[Number 10 GI]

Yeah, that's the answer.

Make sure children don't have the opportunity to be exposed to a variety of viewpoints and history that maybe the parent(s)...don't want to acknowledge.

It's been known forever, that if you want to brainwash someone, start when they're young...and minimize the input they receive.

That should work out real well...for future generations. :oops:

And that is exactly what the public school systems in the US are doing, brainwashing and indoctrinating young minds with left wing ideology. You just don't want to recognize it.

[GoodLife]

And that is exactly what the public school systems in the US are doing, brainwashing and indoctrinating young minds with left wing ideology. You just don't want to recognize it.

Here's the result of that "education"

Social Justice Warriors’ Deface Statues Of Actual Social Justice Warriors

While self-proclaimed antifascists deface literal antifascists, monuments paying tribute to another group of legacy leaders have fallen victim to the demise of “social justice warriors” purging the nation’s history in an ironic twist: civil rights heroes.

'Social Justice Warriors' Deface Statues Of Literal Social Justice Warriors (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/11/social-justice-warriors-deface-statues-of-actual-social-justice-warriors/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The Confederacy lost. The south lost. The Confederate army, led by generals of the southern states, lost, because those generals failed.

I never understood, and still can't understand, why ANYONE would want to display them prominently in a municipality-owned or state-owned or federal-government-owned park. UNLESS they're all lined up with a big sign at each end proclaiming it the Path of Shame.

[ColdNoMore]

And that is exactly what the public school systems in the US are doing, brainwashing and indoctrinating young minds with left wing ideology. You just don't want to recognize it.

LOL :1rotfl:

Just the fact that public students will have been exposed to at least 12 different teachers and around 400 other students, all who have their own experiences, by the time they graduate, versus 1 or 2 people who only have their own viewpoints/bias'/prejudices to pass on and drill into them...shows how silly (and dangerous) you're argument really is. :ohdear:

[ColdNoMore]

The Confederacy lost. The south lost. The Confederate army, led by generals of the southern states, lost, because those generals failed.

I never understood, and still can't understand, why ANYONE would want to display them prominently in a municipality-owned or state-owned or federal-government-owned park. UNLESS they're all lined up with a big sign at each end proclaiming it the Path of Shame.

Here's why they were built.

Confederate Monuments (click here) (http://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments)

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which maintains a list of these monuments, the memorials are spread over 31 states plus the District of Columbia—far exceeding the 11 Confederate states that seceded at the outset of the Civil War.

“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.”

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

And they were so desperate to intimidate blacks, they just grabbed any old general they could find...regardless of how inept they were in the war. :1rotfl:

[thomp679]

Think about it, we're being told what "to think." The controllers are trying to change history by removing the statues and mouments recording it. As it is most millennial know little about anything prior to the Vietnam war, to them even that it ancient history. Live PD and Cops have been removed from our TV screens. Why, is someone afraid we will see life as it really is? This whole effort is how Stalin, Hitler, Castro and every other dictator came to power. It's like the Taliban blasting religious icons from the mountains in Afghanistan. That was bad THERE but it's okay to do it here. You can't change history by trying to erase it, it's still history.

Slow the boat, you are going too fast. What is happening is not the eridication of history. They are not taking down statues of American heroes and presidents. Hitler, Castro, Stalin did not go in and remove statues of former traitors.

Now onto your argument about COPS and LivePD. Not sure that should be a major concern. In fact, I think LivePD has not been cancelled. COPS has lived a long life and had already dwindled in popularity enough that it has been airing new episodes on Paramount Network.

History is safe; books are safe. The ironic thing is much of published history has been polished to various leanings. Do you really think George Washington chopped down a cherry tree?

Cherry Tree Myth * George Washington's Mount Vernon (https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/cherry-tree-myth/#:~:text=The%20cherry%20tree%20myth%20is,became%20 angry%20and%20confronted%20him.)

[SPRINGOLO]

Liberal Media is pushing this agenda. Anything to destroy our once proud country. Wonder how they would react if we destroyed black history & monuments.

The only ones benefiting are not black or white but non law abiding. Americans.

[GoodLife]

Slow the boat, you are going too fast. What is happening is not the eridication of history. They are not taking down statues of American heroes and presidents.

Apparently you missed post #126 above

'Social Justice Warriors' Deface Statues Of Literal Social Justice Warriors (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/11/social-justice-warriors-deface-statues-of-actual-social-justice-warriors/)

abolitionist Matthias Baldwin

84555

Lincoln Statue in London

84556

[kcrazorbackfan]

I'm beginning to wonder if and when the pendulum on censorship will swing back to the middle...

Movies like "Gone With The Wind" are now being pulled from the likes of HBO and other streaming services because companies are fearful of backlash....Military bases and streets named after Southern Civil War generals are now subject to being changed...

for decades Disney has hidden it's movie "Song of the South"

statues of Southern Civil War leaders are being torn down...

when will protesters demand that the beautiful statue of General Lee that sits across the field of battle from General Grant's statue in Gettysburg be forced to be taken down??

When will the cry to erase Thomas Jefferson's name from our history come because he owned slaves?

What's next??

Anything can be next; too many people nowadays are so scared they might offend someone if they don’t BOW DOWN to their idiotic, senseless demands.

Defund the Police? Really damn stupid idea. Disband Police departments? Really damn stupid idea also.

[thomp679]

By act of Congress in 1958 all soldiers/sailors who were members of The Confederacy are US Veterans and enjoy the same status as all members of the US Military throughout history!

It may be best if you do a bit more research in your position. This is a debunked interpretation. Think about it - If this was true, it would be a black eye to every US veteran who served our country honorably.

FACT CHECK: Did Congress Designate Confederate Soldiers as United States Veterans? (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/confederate-soldiers-veterans/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Liberal Media is pushing this agenda. Anything to destroy our once proud country. Wonder how they would react if we destroyed black history & monuments.

The only ones benefiting are not black or white but non law abiding. Americans.

Our once proud country was built on the backs of slaves. The agenda is to stop glorifying the people who LOST the war. They lost. You don't want a statue of George Floyd in the town square do you? Why not? Because he LOST. He lost as a member of an oppressed minority, he lost as a man who disobeyed the law several times and was punished for some of it, he lost as a human being when he was murdered by a (currently ex-) cop.

So then what's your problem with tearing down statues of other people who lost? Having lost the Civil War is nothing to be proud of, if you're a Southerner or a "conservative." Your side lost.

Forget about Columbus because as mentioned - he never got into the competition in the first place. His "discovery" of the Americas did not extend to North America, at all. On none of his trips (he took more than one).

[thomp679]

Apparently you missed post #126 above

'Social Justice Warriors' Deface Statues Of Literal Social Justice Warriors (https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/11/social-justice-warriors-deface-statues-of-actual-social-justice-warriors/)

abolitionist Matthias Baldwin

84555

Lincoln Statue in London

84556

Ok...but the main discussion is the removal of statues of Confederate soldiers and the naming of US military bases after Confederates who tried to secede from the US. And yes...I have since heard Live PD was cancelled.

[anothersteve]

Since we are talking about tearing down statues, this was at a "protest" in Virginia.
George Floyd protesters: Virginia demonstrator critically injured after being hit by toppled Confederate statue | Newshub (https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2020/06/george-floyd-protesters-virginia-demonstrator-critically-injured-after-being-hit-by-toppled-confederate-statue.html)

Too bad!

Man struck in head by toppling Confederate statue in Portsmouth, Virginia. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlZJKkMf09w)

I saw a video that had some foul language and would have been deleted. Fun to watch though, again and again and again.........
Steve

[manaboutown]

And that is exactly what the public school systems in the US are doing, brainwashing and indoctrinating young minds with left wing ideology. You just don't want to recognize it.

Our public educators are doing a poor job. Far too much time is spent conditioning our children into being PC and pushing leftist ideologies rather than truly educating them.

U.S. academic achievement lags that of many other countries | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/)

[fdpaq0580]

Isn’t it stunning that Europe also had African slaves yet there is rarely any mention of the pervasiveness of it internationally. Their shared history is the basis for the recent solidarity protests abroad. Slavery was not exclusively a white Colonial American phenomenon yet white Americans believe we alone carry the guilt. Oppression and prejudice is real but it is not only dealt to blacks. The strife will only end when we all have respect for the sanctity and dignity of all human life. No one is more valuable than another. The violent destruction of statues and looting of commercial enterprises certainly won’t cause LESS prejudice.

I agree with your assessment when you point out the need for us to respect all human lives. You point out that slavery was not exclusive to white Colonial America. When you point to Europe and only include Africans I don't think it goes far enough. Over thousands of years slavery was (although wrong imo.) common in many if not most cultures. And all slaves did not come from Africa. There were slaves from all parts of the world being sold and sent to all parts of the world. I'm not trying to justify it for, imo it can never be justified.
The phrase that prompted me to respond was "carry the guilt". Since my family, like millions of others, emigrated from various parts of Europe, Scandinavia to Canada and the US to avoid oppression and poverty long after slavery had ended, having never approved of or supported it, why is there this intense and insistent attempt to lay blame and guilt for it on all whites? We all know wrongs have been done,. We now need to quit the shouting and finger pointing, for that behavior only slows our progress toward a country and a world where all are welcome, respected and appreciated.

[Windguy]

I guess that makes soldiers in our war of independence from Great Britain part of the same category. etc., etc.
Not even close. They did not betray us. Why would we want statues honoring people who betrayed us? They are not our heroes. They attacked our great country.

[Windguy]

How about we put up monuments for all losers.

Maybe just Participation Trophies...

[Windguy]

Slavery existed in the New World long before Europeans arrived. Native Americans conquered neighboring tribes and made them their slaves.

Looks like we're going to have to tear down any statues of them as well. :icon_wink:
That is completely different! The South were our brothers and they turned on us. We don't want to remove their statues because of slavery--it's because they were losing traitors. And, now, the statues are there to intimidate black people. Statues of the earliest Americans aren't there to intimidate anyone. They were a noble people who fought to defend their land. They didn't betray us.

[Windguy]

If we rid ourselves of all the proof of the atrocities of our past then in the future we will know longer have the reminders or the proof that they truly did happen.
I think many people think some of that stuff should go in museums as a reminder of our darkest hours.

[Windguy]

Yes, let's burn all the books. Forget our history. etc., etc.
Can you name even one person who thinks that's a good idea? Just one?

Nobody is arguing for destroying history. They just don't want statues of traitors in a place of honor.

[manaboutown]

%*&

[Windguy]

The colonist were traitors as well
But, they didn't betray us. Can you not see the difference?

[John41]

Slavery was not the horror some make it to be. In fact after emancipation many slaves chose to stay with their masters. These slaves were sold from tribes in Africa to slave traders and had no skills to succeed in their new home in America. Plantation life provided an extended family that provided for economic and social needs of the slaves. Some slave owners like some parents were neglectful but that does not reflect on the whole institution of slavery which was a necessary transition phase to freedom. How fortunate are today’s blacks that were brought to this country that fought a civil war for their freedom instead of living through the genocide in their African homeland. Today many blacks such as Ben Carson contribute greatly to society thanks to the transition phase of slavery.

[edp411@yahoo.com]

As long as they don’t pull Amos ‘N Andy 😃

[Windguy]

Slavery was not the horror some make it to be.

Wow!

[Velvet]

In Europe in olden times, slavery was a way of life, and the slaves were your own people. Masters were instructed to be kind to their slaves. But with time it was found that hiring servants was a better and fairer way.

[ColdNoMore]

Some slave owners like some parents were neglectful but that does not reflect on the whole institution of slavery which was a necessary transition phase to freedom.

Wow!

Exactly..."WOW." :oops:


Maybe we just missed all of those historical books, or comments in said books, from actual slaves...about how slavery wasn't all that bad? :ohdear:

[Velvet]

Excellent observation, where is history from the slaves point of view?

[GoodLife]

That is completely different! The South were our brothers and they turned on us. We don't want to remove their statues because of slavery--it's because they were losing traitors. And, now, the statues are there to intimidate black people. Statues of the earliest Americans aren't there to intimidate anyone. They were a noble people who fought to defend their land. They didn't betray us.

How are statues of losing traitors intimidating black people?

PS Native Americans had slaves long before Europeans arrived. Were their slaves the wrong color?

[ColdNoMore]

Excellent observation, where is history from the slaves point of view?

Just the thought of someone trying to justify the 'owning of other human beings,' with the primary difference between them and a set of golf clubs is that the slaves had to be fed...is beyond revolting. barf

And yet, the basis and foundation of this country's wealth and power, came off of the backs of basically...free black slave labor. :ohdear:

[Stu from NYC]

Just the thought of someone trying to justify the 'owning of other human beings,' with the primary difference between them and a set of golf clubs is that the slaves had to be fed...is beyond revolting. barf

And yet, the basis and foundation of this country's wealth and power, came off of the backs of basically...free black slave labor. :ohdear:

Lets not consider the industrial revolution at all. Before that we only supplied raw materials to other countries factories.

[ColdNoMore]

Lets not consider the industrial revolution at all. Before that we only supplied raw materials to other countries factories.

Revisionist history, only works on those who don't want to know (or find out)...the truth. :ohdear:

Slavery and Capitalism (poke here) (http://www.vox.com/identities/2019/8/16/20806069/slavery-economy-capitalism-violence-cotton-edward-baptist)

How slavery became America’s first big business

Historian and author Edward E. Baptist explains how slavery helped the US go from a “colonial economy to the second biggest industrial power in the world.”

Of the many myths told about American slavery, one of the biggest is that it was an archaic practice that only enriched a small number of men.

The argument has often been used to diminish the scale of slavery, reducing it to a crime committed by a few Southern planters, one that did not touch the rest of the United States. Slavery, the argument goes, was an inefficient system, and the labor of the enslaved was considered less productive than that of a free worker being paid a wage. The use of enslaved labor has been presented as premodern, a practice that had no ties to the capitalism that allowed America to become — and remain — a leading global economy.

But as with so many stories about slavery, this is untrue.

Slavery, particularly the cotton slavery that existed from the end of the 18th century to the beginning of the Civil War, was a thoroughly modern business, one that was continuously changing to maximize profits.

To grow the cotton that would clothe the world and fuel global industrialization, thousands of young enslaved men and women — the children of stolen ancestors legally treated as property — were transported from Maryland and Virginia hundreds of miles south, and forcibly retrained to become America’s most efficient laborers.

[Bay Kid]

If not for slavery there would be no African Americans here today. Captured and sold by their own and sent to America. So sad, but that is the way life was. It is history.

We still have slavery to free things.

[bilcon]

Tell your grandkids to be very careful what they post on social media. It may come back to bite them. I was told that a girl wrote something offensive about a race when she was 15 yrs old. This year she was accepted to the college of her choice. Last week she was informed that they were pulling her acceptance. Somehow they discovered what she posted on social media 2 yrs ago. Hard to believe, but true. I am not saying what she posted was acceptable, just sending a warning.