History

[Bay Kid]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

[Stu from NYC]

Sad that schools do not teach our history and now statues commemorating important people in our history will not even be here.

[DeanFL]

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I must mumble to myself a few times per day now - "our poor kids and grandkids"...

No more of my words required re this topic. These cover the issue quite well.>
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[karostay]

Middle East ideology has infiltrated the US culture

[Stu from NYC]

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I must mumble to myself a few times per day now - "our poor kids and grandkids"...

No more of my words required re this topic. These cover the issue quite well.>
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Very very true

[billethkid]

What's next.
The kind of car one drives.
The color of your house.
Which way is the wind blowing.

When dealing with people who have nothing invested, keep in mind they have nothing to lose.

I am waiting for the time when they ATTEMPT, to attack the American flag.

[New Englander]

What's next.
The kind of car one drives.
The color of your house.
Which way is the wind blowing.

When dealing with people who have nothing invested, keep in mind they have nothing to lose.

I am waiting for the time when they ATTEMPT, to attack the American flag.



The media would just LOVE that

[blueash]

Where are all those statues to Hitler and Stalin and Saddam here in the USA so we can remember our history? Now is certainly the time to begin erecting a few nice Fidel Castro monuments. Let's be sure we have reminders of all the enemies of America in our squares so we don't forget our history. Certainly the Klan was a big part of American history. Be sure to name a few streets Ku Klux Klan way so our grandchildren can ask about the origin of the street name. If you petition the Morse family maybe you can get a new section of the development down South to honor George Wallace and David Duke, Bull Connor and James Earl Ray.

To help remember our history we need Lynching Lane and Segregation Street. We need Poll Tax Path and whatever creative and catchy remembrances you can imagine so we all remember our history better.

Or we can honor our better examples of citizenry. We can find people who believed in equality of whites and blacks, native americans and Asians. We can honor those who fought bigotry instead of those who so strongly believed in inequality that they were willing to kill Americans and died themselves rather than accept that POC were entitled to emancipation, the right to live with their spouse and children, not be subjugated and sold. Is it too much to ask that those statues honoring such traitors be torn down? Is it too much to suggest that naming a building or a street or a military facility for a bigot and a racist be undone? I am sorry it hurts your feelings that "those" people are getting their way finally with this issue. But I'll take you seriously when you suggest we do really need that Adolph statue to be sure we can all remember.

Remember more Americans died because of the war flagged by the Stars and Bars than the total of the wars instigated by Germany, the Viet Nam "conflict" Korea and the Revolutionary War combined. So let us all be sure to erect a few more statues honoring the heroes of the traitorous and racist Confederacy.

[karostay]

[/I][/B]

The media would just LOVE that


Our country is being torn down right before our eyes
Most of Washington embraces it

[jacksonbrown]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?


If you are referring to the anarchists, they will never be happy.

[Arctic Fox]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

We must learn from history; not try to forget it or rewrite it

[Arctic Fox]

Where are all those statues to Hitler and Stalin and Saddam here in the USA so we can remember our history?

Statues are erected to commemorate people who did good, in the context of their time.

Times change; contexts change; but none of that is reason to expunge our history.

Most people are intelligent enough to appreciate that.

Take Alfred Nobel as an example. He made a lot of money and used it to fund a prize program that is benefiting science etc. over a century later. Yet the money was from his invention of dynamite, which has killed thousands of people, so some people want to remove all reminders of him. Will that bring those people back to life? Or should we appreciate that he continues to bring benefits to the World? I vote for the latter.

[Stu from NYC]

Statues are erected to commemorate people who did good, in the context of their time.

Times change; contexts change; but none of that is reason to expunge our history.

Most people are intelligent enough to appreciate that.

Take Alfred Nobel as an example. He made a lot of money and used it to fund a prize program that is benefiting science etc. over a century later. Yet the money was from his invention of dynamite, which has killed thousands of people, so some people want to remove all reminders of him. Will that bring those people back to life? Or should we appreciate that he continues to bring benefits to the World? I vote for the latter.

So very true. People are products of their times and should be considered as such.

[alwann]

If I recall correctly, the Statuary Hall Collection in the U.S. Capitol building includes Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis. When will revisionists demand their removal? Washington and Jefferson too--- slave owners.

[billethkid]

Where are all those statues to Hitler and Stalin and Saddam here in the USA so we can remember our history? Now is certainly the time to begin erecting a few nice Fidel Castro monuments. Let's be sure we have reminders of all the enemies of America in our squares so we don't forget our history. Certainly the Klan was a big part of American history. Be sure to name a few streets Ku Klux Klan way so our grandchildren can ask about the origin of the street name. If you petition the Morse family maybe you can get a new section of the development down South to honor George Wallace and David Duke, Bull Connor and James Earl Ray.

To help remember our history we need Lynching Lane and Segregation Street. We need Poll Tax Path and whatever creative and catchy remembrances you can imagine so we all remember our history better.

Or we can honor our better examples of citizenry. We can find people who believed in equality of whites and blacks, native americans and Asians. We can honor those who fought bigotry instead of those who so strongly believed in inequality that they were willing to kill Americans and died themselves rather than accept that POC were entitled to emancipation, the right to live with their spouse and children, not be subjugated and sold. Is it too much to ask that those statues honoring such traitors be torn down? Is it too much to suggest that naming a building or a street or a military facility for a bigot and a racist be undone? I am sorry it hurts your feelings that "those" people are getting their way finally with this issue. But I'll take you seriously when you suggest we do really need that Adolph statue to be sure we can all remember.

Remember more Americans died because of the war flagged by the Stars and Bars than the total of the wars instigated by Germany, the Viet Nam "conflict" Korea and the Revolutionary War combined. So let us all be sure to erect a few more statues honoring the heroes of the traitorous and racist Confederacy.

What is being completely overlooked is the timing/date of when these remembrances were authorized/constructed.

To look back or at them today measuring by today's standards is unreasonable. The remembrances have been around/accepted for more than one generation.

So now all of a sudden minority and special interest groups have arbitrarily made the decisions for the American people to do away with them.

A comparison? The book burning in the Nazi Germany era.

Shameful that federal, state and local governments continue to allow the dismantling of what was and is America.....like it or not!!

[Velvet]

What's next.
The kind of car one drives.
The color of your house.
Which way is the wind blowing.

When dealing with people who have nothing invested, keep in mind they have nothing to lose.

I am waiting for the time when they ATTEMPT, to attack the American flag.

Yes, in some countries if anyone attempts to dishonor the flag or national anthem, they are removed immediately without ceremony no matter who they are. If you are a conscientious objector, you better live somewhere else. Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to insult the flag and everyone it represents.

[NotFromAroundHere]

Statues are erected to commemorate people who did good, in the context of their time.

I'm interested in what context being a traitor to your country and killing U.S. soldiers is "doing good"?

[Arctic Fox]

I'm interested in what context being a traitor to your country and killing U.S. soldiers is "doing good"?

I have no idea to whom you are referring - you will have to be more specific.

[Two Bills]

The victors write history!!

[GoodLife]

I'm interested in what context being a traitor to your country and killing U.S. soldiers is "doing good"?

I'm interested in what context removing statues is going to solve the problem.

Something to look into if you are concerned about racism. Blacks die by homicide at 8 times the rate of whites, not by Police, not by whites, but by blacks. Thousands of them every year. Last year cops killed 9 unarmed blacks, some of them were shot by black cops.

NCHS - 404 Error - Resource Not Available (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/n...r68_09-508.pdf)

Looking in the wrong places will not solve the problem.

[NotFromAroundHere]

I have no idea to whom you are referring - you will have to be more specific.

That's funny!

[NotFromAroundHere]

I'm interested in what context removing statues is going to solve the problem.

Something to look into if you are concerned about racism. Blacks die by homicide at 8 times the rate of whites, not by Police, not by whites, but by blacks. Thousands of them every year. Last year cops killed 9 unarmed blacks, some of them were shot by black cops.

NCHS - 404 Error - Resource Not Available (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/n...r68_09-508.pdf)



Looking in the wrong places will not solve the problem.

Depends on what problem you're trying to solve. I don't think murder is a statue problem. We could remove every statue in the world, and people would still kill people.

If you're trying to solve the problem that statues honoring traitors are teaching people that those traitors are worthy of esteem and emulation, then taking them down might be a good start.

[Stu from NYC]

I'm interested in what context removing statues is going to solve the problem.

Something to look into if you are concerned about racism. Blacks die by homicide at 8 times the rate of whites, not by Police, not by whites, but by blacks. Thousands of them every year. Last year cops killed 9 unarmed blacks, some of them were shot by black cops.

NCHS - 404 Error - Resource Not Available (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/n...r68_09-508.pdf)

Looking in the wrong places will not solve the problem.

Makes one wonder why black leaders do not address this but instead look to inflame people by bringing hatred to the police.

The only thing that the black community seems to get out of this is free stuff by the ones doing the looting. Wonder how many jobs were lost due to this rioting and destruction?

[GoodLife]

Depends on what problem you're trying to solve. I don't think murder is a statue problem. We could remove every statue in the world, and people would still kill people.

If you're trying to solve the problem that statues honoring traitors are teaching people that those traitors are worthy of esteem and emulation, then taking them down might be a good start.

Please, this whole thing started because a black man was killed during an arrest. BLACK LIVES MATTER. STOP POLICE BRUTALITY. Nobody really gives a frick about statues.

It's all theater, and it's not going to save a single black life.

[Utrix53]

Well said!

[Dahabs]

We must learn from history; not try to forget it or rewrite it

Why equate the removal of these statues with forgetting history? Relocate them to museums. Keeping them in town squares would seem to glorify these guys would it not?

[Dahabs]

Makes one wonder why black leaders do not address this but instead look to inflame people by bringing hatred to the police.

The only thing that the black community seems to get out of this is free stuff by the ones doing the looting. Wonder how many jobs were lost due to this rioting and destruction?

Really? That simple?

[Windguy]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

Can anyone name even one person who is proposing that we remove all remembrances of the past? I sure don’t know anyone who feels that way. Proposing to stop honoring traitors is not the same as erasing history. There are less offensive ways to remember history than keeping statues of traitors in our parks.

[Alana33]

The American Civil War (also known by other names) was a civil war in the United States from 1861 to 1865, fought between northern states loyal to the Union and southern states that had seceded from the Union to form the Confederate States of America.[e] The civil war began primarily as a result of the long-standing controversy over the enslavement of black people. War broke out in April 1861 when secessionist forces attacked Fort Sumter in South Carolina shortly after Abraham Lincoln had been inaugurated as the President of the United States. The loyalists of the Union in the North, which also included some geographically western and southern states, proclaimed support for the Constitution.
They faced secessionists of the Confederate States in the South, who advocated for states' rights to uphold slavery.

Don't see statues of Hitler in Germany.
Why should we be subjected have statues of those who chose to subjugate and enslave humans for profit?

[Dahabs]

The American Civil War (also known by other names) was a civil war in the United States from 1861 to 1865, fought between northern states loyal to the Union and southern states that had seceded from the Union to form the Confederate States of America.[e] The civil war began primarily as a result of the long-standing controversy over the enslavement of black people. War broke out in April 1861 when secessionist forces attacked Fort Sumter in South Carolina shortly after Abraham Lincoln had been inaugurated as the President of the United States. The loyalists of the Union in the North, which also included some geographically western and southern states, proclaimed support for the Constitution.
They faced secessionists of the Confederate States in the South, who advocated for states' rights to uphold slavery.

Don't see statues of Hitler in Germany.
Why should we be subjected have statues of those who chose to subjugate and enslave humans for profit?

Exactly!

[Val656@aol.com]

I was always taught to learn from the past not to tear it down so you can forget. Am I doing it wrong?

[Bellavita]

I will rest easy when any sign of paying tribute to traders and people who fought for the right to own a human being is erased. I will rest when the faces on Stone Mountain are removed. I will rest when racist are ashamed to fly the Confederate flag. I will rest when the KKK is disbanded I will rest when Nazis are gone from the face of the earth I will rest when the Red Man is not looked down on I will rest when we don’t discriminate on people who are different than white men And are equal. We have much work to do.

America won the war the south lost. We don’t honor traders and people who fought to own a human being. That is history Confederacy is dead bury the damn thing forever

[Neils]

Only selective history is being removed. Nothing equal about what is going on.

MLKs dream has been corrupted and shattered

[Strongel]

We are slow to learn. Talk solution, what we have learned. It’s easy to rehearse the problems and takes no critical thinking but solves nothing.
Statue or no statue, what did we learn from this? What did we miss? Are we better or worse for it?

This country imperfect as it is has been the envy of many nations. Why?

Slavery, racism and every other division where people are different has occurred all over the world and still goes on today. We are not the “only” country. We haven’t solved the problem 100% but have made headway. It is not systemic but pockets of individuals. How can we hold individuals responsible? How can we shut up those who stand on a soapbox for profit to blame everyone and stop the corrupt media for showing this along with their misleading stories?

[Strongel]

America won the war the south lost. We don’t honor traders and people who fought to own a human being. That is history Confederacy is dead bury the damn thing forever

I agree with Morgan Freeman. Stop talking about it. You keep it alive by talking endlessly about it.

[Stu from NYC]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

No they will find new things to be offended about.

[noslices1]

They have already attacked the National Anthem. Currently, there is a movement to change it to something less “War like”, like Kumbaya or We are the World, or maybe the “Barney” song.

[NFRicaS]

Makes one wonder why black leaders do not address this but instead look to inflame people by bringing hatred to the police.

The only thing that the black community seems to get out of this is free stuff by the ones doing the looting. Wonder how many jobs were lost due to this rioting and destruction?

FYI...Most of the looting burning, etc. was begun by white nationalists and neo-nazis...To incite chaos so blacks would be blamed...

[mepoole]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?
Never in a million years!!

[Warren]

We have a museum in Washington DC that remembers the holocaust. May be there should be national museum for the American civil war. May be there could be state museums. These statues could be relocated to such places. The black history museum might like some.

May be it is time we start putting a time limit on how long we honor someone with a statue or a name on some land mark.

Be careful of the slippery slope you go down. People like JFK, LBJ and MLK were flawed, too. Where did the money come from to create Yale and Duke university's?

[La lamy]

Where are all those statues to Hitler and Stalin and Saddam here in the USA so we can remember our history? Now is certainly the time to begin erecting a few nice Fidel Castro monuments. Let's be sure we have reminders of all the enemies of America in our squares so we don't forget our history. Certainly the Klan was a big part of American history. Be sure to name a few streets Ku Klux Klan way so our grandchildren can ask about the origin of the street name. If you petition the Morse family maybe you can get a new section of the development down South to honor George Wallace and David Duke, Bull Connor and James Earl Ray.

To help remember our history we need Lynching Lane and Segregation Street. We need Poll Tax Path and whatever creative and catchy remembrances you can imagine so we all remember our history better.

Or we can honor our better examples of citizenry. We can find people who believed in equality of whites and blacks, native americans and Asians. We can honor those who fought bigotry instead of those who so strongly believed in inequality that they were willing to kill Americans and died themselves rather than accept that POC were entitled to emancipation, the right to live with their spouse and children, not be subjugated and sold. Is it too much to ask that those statues honoring such traitors be torn down? Is it too much to suggest that naming a building or a street or a military facility for a bigot and a racist be undone? I am sorry it hurts your feelings that "those" people are getting their way finally with this issue. But I'll take you seriously when you suggest we do really need that Adolph statue to be sure we can all remember.

Remember more Americans died because of the war flagged by the Stars and Bars than the total of the wars instigated by Germany, the Viet Nam "conflict" Korea and the Revolutionary War combined. So let us all be sure to erect a few more statues honoring the heroes of the traitorous and racist Confederacy.

Well said. The argument about statues of evil people being a 'needed' reminder of the past is ridiculous. It's a glorification. Same with naming of streets, squares, buildings, cities etc... Remembering the past of evil people is necessary, but it belongs in museums and history books. Would you keep an abusive partner around you all the time so you don't forget the past?!!

[roscoguy]

What is being completely overlooked is the timing/date of when these remembrances were authorized/constructed.

Ooooh, I think you (inadvertently) hit the nail on the head. How the US Got So Many Confederate Monuments - HISTORY (https://www.history.com/news/how-the-u-s-got-so-many-confederate-monuments) "Most of these monuments did not go up immediately after the war’s end in 1865. During that time, commemorative markers of the Civil War tended to be memorials that mourned soldiers who had died, says Mark Elliott, a history professor at University of North Carolina, Greensboro. “Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson.

[cleanwater]

It’s being re built to be better, and hopefully that’s always the way.

[roscoguy]

I'm interested in what context removing statues is going to solve the problem.

That alone obviously won't heal the damage done by centuries of racial violence & prejudice. It won't "solve" any specific problem, but it would sent a very belated message that we aren't proud of the people that led the fight to preserve the institution of slavery. Maybe if the message is clear and sincere enough, progress could be made.

[riley2011]

Some people will never be happy!

[MandoMan]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

No way! They want reparations for what was done to their ancestors. Here’s a paragraph on what that might cost from a New York Times article on that topic from 2019:

“What would Sherman’s promise [40 acres and a mule] be worth today?

“Mr. Darity has been mulling that question for years, and is writing a book on reparations with Kirsten Mullen, due out next year. He begins with the cost of an acre in 1865: about $10. Forty acres divided among a family of four comes to 10 acres per person, or about $100 for each of the four million former slaves. Taking account of compounding interest and inflation, Mr. Darity has put the present value at $2.6 trillion. Assuming roughly 30 million descendants of ex-slaves, he concluded it worked out to about $80,000 a person.”

What Reparations for Slavery Might Look Like in 2019 - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/business/economy/reparations-slavery.html)

Who pays for that? You do.

[eyc234]

FYI...Most of the looting burning, etc. was begun by white nationalists and neo-nazis...To incite chaos so blacks would be blamed...

Not what I saw on the coverage by all networks. While there were some whites in the videos, the overwhelming majority video of looters coming out of stores were not white.

[Windguy]

Be careful of the slippery slope you go down. People like JFK, LBJ and MLK were flawed, too.
The issue at hand has nothing to do with character flaws. It has to do with the fact that these people were losers who betrayed our country. Who really thinks that honoring traitors and losers is a worthwhile venture?

[oldtimes]

I will rest easy when any sign of paying tribute to traders and people who fought for the right to own a human being is erased. I will rest when the faces on Stone Mountain are removed. I will rest when racist are ashamed to fly the Confederate flag. I will rest when the KKK is disbanded I will rest when Nazis are gone from the face of the earth I will rest when the Red Man is not looked down on I will rest when we don’t discriminate on people who are different than white men And are equal. We have much work to do.

America won the war the south lost. We don’t honor traders and people who fought to own a human being. That is history Confederacy is dead bury the damn thing forever

So does that mean that anyone with an offensive name like Lee or Jackson will now need to change it? Do we need to rename cities and states? Where does the insanity end?

[Windguy]

I have a suggestion for those of you who sincerely think that removing the statues of losing traitors is destroying history.

How about we turn them over on their sides and put up signs saying something like "Here lies the statue of a loser who betrayed our country. He (are any of the statues of women?) fought for the horrific right to own other people." No history is destroyed and a message is sent that not only was slavery a terrible thing, but those who seek change through unconstitutional and violent means will be summarily dealt with.

[deebrock]

According to some they already have.

[butch69]

ALL? That called extending the argument in logic.

[ColdNoMore]

The issue at hand has nothing to do with character flaws. It has to do with the fact that these people were losers who betrayed our country. Who really thinks that honoring traitors and losers is a worthwhile venture?

Pick me, pick me...I know the answer to that question. :ohdear:


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[ColdNoMore]

I have a suggestion for those of you who sincerely think that removing the statues of losing traitors is destroying history.

How about we turn them over on their sides and put up signs saying something like "Here lies the statue of a loser who betrayed our country. He (are any of the statues of women?) fought for the horrific right to own other people." No history is destroyed and a message is sent that not only was slavery a terrible thing, but those who seek change through unconstitutional and violent means will be summarily dealt with.

I personally prefer preserving them in their original state and then putting them in a shared, out of public sight, location where students can be taught...what they REALLY represent and why they even exist. :ho:

[quietpine]

“History is a set of lies agreed upon.” Napoleon

The past isn’t going anywhere, it is being updated to reflect an agreed upon set of values.

[roscoguy]

No way! They want reparations for what was done to their ancestors. Here’s a paragraph on what that might cost from a New York Times article on that topic from 2019:

“What would Sherman’s promise [40 acres and a mule] be worth today?

“Mr. Darity has been mulling that question for years, and is writing a book on reparations with Kirsten Mullen, due out next year. He begins with the cost of an acre in 1865: about $10. Forty acres divided among a family of four comes to 10 acres per person, or about $100 for each of the four million former slaves. Taking account of compounding interest and inflation, Mr. Darity has put the present value at $2.6 trillion. Assuming roughly 30 million descendants of ex-slaves, he concluded it worked out to about $80,000 a person.”

What Reparations for Slavery Might Look Like in 2019 - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/business/economy/reparations-slavery.html)

Who pays for that? You do.

So, maybe the U.S. government should have honored Sherman's promise back then, rather than wringing our hands over 150 years later about the hugely inflated amount it would cost today. It would have made a lot of sense from a fiscal standpoint alone, if you really think about it...

[sloanst]

No, this isn't about happiness. This is revolution. Radical organizations do this when they conquer an area. The destruction of memorials essentially removes that which the conquered population can return to, should an uprising of the defeated occur. They destroy the soul of a nation. If there is no remembrance of what was, then there is no basis for a future uprising. ISIS did this by destroying mosques, shrines, murals and statues that were centuries old. One may question, why do we want to remember generals of the Confederacy. We need to remember the mistakes this country made. We also need to remember that this country was founded by revolution and we need to know that we can revolt, even if the reason for revolution, in some cases, is depraved. More often than not, revolutions are a righteous cause. The secession of the South actually sparked the revolutionary spirit of the abolitionists to apply the Constitution to all people and make those in bondage free. Those statues remind us all, that the struggle for freedom is never ending and it will always be a righteous cause.

I think we should raise more statues. Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Tecumseh come to mind, because that was another horrendous mistake of this nation that we have forgotten all to easily because we have nothing visual to remind us.

[Byte1]

Interesting how if one wishes to have a discussion on a matter, someone else that wishes to dominate or dispose of the conversation will use extremes such as "ALL" or nothing. It only becomes a gray area when it comes to personal freedoms that stomp all over the moral majority's view. It's better to not argue, but to just say "NEWS FLASH: I DON'T CARE." Statues have been there for decades with NO complaint. Now, it's not even the minorities complaining (until an anarchist white tells them they are being wronged). The South demonstrated and protested and it was wrong. Today, thousands come out to demonstrate and protest, destroy, riot and kill and it is considered patriotic. When are we going to destroy our War monuments in D.C. because they might insult Japanese, Germans, Koreans or Vietnamese that we killed with our military? After all, we do not want to make any ethnicity feel bad about LOSING to us.
There will always be someone that is "hurt" by being reminded that we have a tainted history. But, our history has made us the best and greatest country in the world, regardless of implied blemishes. Like someone else has said on other threads, if you don't like what's on TV, then change the channel or turn it off. Someone wishes to watch that channel or it wouldn't get broadcasted. Same with memorials. If you don't like that statue, then don't look at it. If you do not like crosses, then don't look at it. It is an insult to some of us when you demean historically significant reminders. I see no reason why any reminders of the CIVIL war would bother anyone when no one living is part of that period in our history. If reminders of that war bothers folks, then I think they should seek counseling. I think that some folks just have too much time on their hands, or they NEED an excuse for their failures.

[rsibole]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?



For those who haven’t read, or those who have forgotten, here are a few lines from George Orwell’s book, ”1984” . . . .

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

“The Thought Police are the secret police of the Superstate, who discover and punish thoughtcrime, personal and political thoughts unapproved by the government. You can even be punished for a Facecrime if your mind wanders while you are in a public setting and your facial expression reveals your disagreement with the Party.”

George makes Nostradamus look like a amateur at predicting the future . . . . George was just 36-years off the mark but spot on in what he wrote.

[Aloha1]

FYI...Most of the looting burning, etc. was begun by white nationalists and neo-nazis...To incite chaos so blacks would be blamed...

Fake news.

[Byte1]

So, maybe the U.S. government should have honored Sherman's promise back then, rather than wringing our hands over 150 years later about the hugely inflated amount it would cost today. It would have made a lot of sense from a fiscal standpoint alone, if you really think about it...

There has already been reparations in our country. Affirmative action comes to mind. But, how do you figure out who gets what? After all, many former slaves received confiscated land in the South after the Civil War. I would think that everyone having the same Constitutional rights today should be enough to satisfy most, without having certain groups treated better than others, just based on color, gender or sexual preference.

[Red Rose]

What I want to know is why can't I open the article about how the Sumter Landing name is now offensive too? Why is it not downloading?

[Byte1]

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I must mumble to myself a few times per day now - "our poor kids and grandkids"...

No more of my words required re this topic. These cover the issue quite well.>
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Hmm, does that mean that the CIVIL War never happened and there is no real racial problem? Great, discussion is over!

[Holpat39]

Why now? Why wasn't this removal of statues done after MLK march. Why not after the Rodney King killing in California, why not during previous administrations? Can someone explain WHY NOW?

[Byte1]

If I recall correctly, the Statuary Hall Collection in the U.S. Capitol building includes Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis. When will revisionists demand their removal? Washington and Jefferson too--- slave owners.

According to the NEWS, Pelosi has demanded the removal of those statues.

[fdpaq0580]

We are slow to learn. Talk solution, what we have learned. It’s easy to rehearse the problems and takes no critical thinking but solves nothing.
Statue or no statue, what did we learn from this? What did we miss? Are we better or worse for it?

This country imperfect as it is has been the envy of many nations. Why?

Slavery, racism and every other division where people are different has occurred all over the world and still goes on today. We are not the “only” country. We haven’t solved the problem 100% but have made headway. It is not systemic but pockets of individuals. How can we hold individuals responsible? How can we shut up those who stand on a soapbox for profit to blame everyone and stop the corrupt media for showing this along with their misleading stories?

I believe you have it correct. From our deepest past we are all one species, brothers and sisters. We are all out of Africa yet there are many who believe we cannot learn to get along. I sometimes believe that our problems may, in fact, be rooted more in culture than in color since, historically, all races have experienced slavery, often by their own race. Color/race is a convenient and obvious distinction that should be nothing more than a descriptor, like hair or eye color, tall or short. We can, we must be able get through the trivial to get to the important. Peaceful, respectful and open dialogue is essential to bringing us to understanding and equality.
It isn't and it won't be solved over night, but if different species that in nature hate each other (cats and dogs) can learn to get along and accept each other and live together, then why can't we.

[Byte1]

I will rest easy when any sign of paying tribute to traders and people who fought for the right to own a human being is erased. I will rest when the faces on Stone Mountain are removed. I will rest when racist are ashamed to fly the Confederate flag. I will rest when the KKK is disbanded I will rest when Nazis are gone from the face of the earth I will rest when the Red Man is not looked down on I will rest when we don’t discriminate on people who are different than white men And are equal. We have much work to do.

America won the war the south lost. We don’t honor traders and people who fought to own a human being. That is history Confederacy is dead bury the damn thing forever

Since my family arrived in the U.S. way after the Civil War, we found it educational and interesting to travel and view monuments to commemorate battles, leaders and famous people that were part of making this young country the World's Best. Is it true that the white man conquered and stole this country from the "red" man? If so, doesn't that blemish one's view of the white man? Or, should all memorials to the losers (red man) be destroyed, because we do not wish to have reminders of losers in this country?
Isn't it amazing how many folks that hate the South, have moved to the South to exploit it, ever since the carpetbaggers of yesteryear? Southerners have a culture, just like African Americans, Irish, Jews, Italians, etc. Is it called assimilation or elimination? Do we eliminate what a very few find offensive or do not agree with? What happens when Atheists decide they are offended by Christian symbols and demand their removal..............oh wait. :pray:

[Byte1]

That alone obviously won't heal the damage done by centuries of racial violence & prejudice. It won't "solve" any specific problem, but it would sent a very belated message that we aren't proud of the people that led the fight to preserve the institution of slavery. Maybe if the message is clear and sincere enough, progress could be made.

Not interested in "sending a message." Time for folks to get over it and get on with their lives. We live in the best country in the world and there is no need to destroy that just because a few disgruntled folks feel slighted. There are no excuses today. If you commit a crime, regardless of color, you reap the consequences no matter how unfortunate. If you want fair, then don't break the "fair" law. I believe the the expiration date of social injustice has come and gone. Last year, we had a record in this country for employment of ALL colors and genders. No more excuses. The only persons slighted are the anarchists, and they are having the time of their lives right now. Lets get this over with so that we can put this country back on track.

[Stu from NYC]

There has already been reparations in our country. Affirmative action comes to mind. But, how do you figure out who gets what? After all, many former slaves received confiscated land in the South after the Civil War. I would think that everyone having the same Constitutional rights today should be enough to satisfy most, without having certain groups treated better than others, just based on color, gender or sexual preference.

We should all have a level playing field. You want something work for it, simple as that.

[airstreamingypsy]

Why should the USA celebrate traitors? Why have statues of men who took up arms against the United States? Does Germany have statues of Hitler and his men everywhere? I don't think so.

[ColdNoMore]

FYI...Most of the looting burning, etc. was begun by white nationalists and neo-nazis...To incite chaos so blacks would be blamed...

Hard to justify "most," but as recent events prove...it's certainly "some."

Scumbag Caught (click here) (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/scumbag-who-ambushed-police-caught-307682/)


.

[oldtimes]

Why should the USA celebrate traitors? Why have statues of men who took up arms against the United States? Does Germany have statues of Hitler and his men everywhere? I don't think so.

Actually they do. When we visited one of the stops on our tour was Hitlers bunker.

[joedi]

You are mistaking its a White Person Power thing!

[Byte1]

Why should the USA celebrate traitors? Why have statues of men who took up arms against the United States? Does Germany have statues of Hitler and his men everywhere? I don't think so.

What does Hitler have to do with it? Did Hitler start a revolution or split the country in half and succeed from it? I bet if he had won there would be statues of him everywhere, right? I think perhaps that this is comparing apples to oranges.

[stevemac]

I taught American History for 37 years in Massachusetts. Students took a minimum of 2 years American History. Where in the U.S. is it not taught?

[roscoguy]

There has already been reparations in our country. Affirmative action comes to mind.
Affirmative Action probably did help some, and only about 100 years after the end of the Civil War. Hard to figure why that wasn't enough... :ohdear:
But, how do you figure out who gets what? After all, many former slaves received confiscated land in the South after the Civil War. I would think that everyone having the same Constitutional rights today should be enough to satisfy most, without having certain groups treated better than others, just based on color, gender or sexual preference.
Some former slaves received confiscated land, however "Almost all land allocated during the war was restored to its pre-war white owners." Forty acres and a mule - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_acres_and_a_mule)
I'm unsure exactly which groups you feel are being treated better than others... :confused:

[roscoguy]

Actually they do. When we visited one of the stops on our tour was Hitlers bunker.

And there were statues there in his honor??? I don't think so.

[roscoguy]

Not interested in "sending a message."Fine. Then you got exactly what you paid for.
Time for folks to get over it and get on with their lives.Another great point. We white folks have gotten over the fact that some of our ancestors owned slaves here in the U.S. for over 300 years, why can't the slaves' descendants just turn the other cheek? Sheeesh, talk about white denial... :ohdear: :ohdear:

[ColdNoMore]

And there were statues there in his honor??? I don't think so.

It's actually illegal in Germany, to erect statues/monuments of Hitler or Nazi's...as it should be. :thumbup:

German Laws (http://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/16/16152088/nazi-swastikas-germany-charlottesville)

German Chancellor Angela Merkel expressed horror at the racist marches that roiled Charlottesville, Virginia, this past weekend. “It is racist, far-right violence, and clear, forceful action must be taken against it, regardless of where in the world it happens,” she said on German television Monday.

She might have added that such a thing wouldn’t have happened in today’s Germany — because it’s illegal.

While America protects the right of neo-Nazis, white supremacists, the Ku Klux Klan, and other hate groups to hold public rallies and express their views openly, Germany has strict laws banning Nazi symbols and what’s called Volksverhetzung — incitement of the people, or hate speech. Like more than a dozen European countries, Germany also has a law criminalizing Holocaust denial.

And while Confederate statues can be found in many American cities south of the Mason-Dixon Line, there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art.

Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings.

The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period.


:bigbow:

[oldtimes]

And there were statues there in his honor??? I don't think so.

No there aren't but they have not tried to completely eradicate it either.

Take a lesson: How Germany handles monuments from Nazi and communist eras (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opinion/commentary/charlottesville-nazis-germany-communists-monuments-trump-20170817.html?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar)

[Byte1]

Fine. Then you got exactly what you paid for.
Another great point. We white folks have gotten over the fact that some of our ancestors owned slaves here in the U.S. for over 300 years, why can't the slaves' descendants just turn the other cheek? Sheeesh, talk about white denial... :ohdear: :ohdear:

I do not know of anyone that was a slave owner and I do not know of anyone that was a slave (other than a friend that came over here as an indentured servant after WWII). None of my ancestors owned slaves, as far as I know. And if they did, it would have been in Europe, so how would reparations go in that case?
EVERYONE born in this country now has Constitutional Rights, so why would they think they are owed any "reparations?"
Before accusing me of "white denial" it would be well served if you knew my ethnicity. FYI: I come from a multi-ethnicity family, consisting of African Americans, Latino, Japanese, Filipino, and yes some European Americans. My family did not arrive in the U.S. until way after the Civil War, so why would I be obliged to donate my EARNED income toward a frivolous cause? And would our Indigenous Natives (American Indians), Japanese descendants confined to WWII camps, and Chinese RR workers, etc. also have a share in such Gov give aways?
Exactly how many different ways does America have to say they are sorry for unfavorable treatment before enough is considered enough? And is there any reason that I or anyone in my family should need to apologize for something I am not guilty of? I think not.

[ColdNoMore]

No there aren't but they have not tried to completely eradicate it either.

Take a lesson: How Germany handles monuments from Nazi and communist eras (https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opinion/commentary/charlottesville-nazis-germany-communists-monuments-trump-20170817.html?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar)

Per your link...

- The overdue momentum to remove various Confederate symbols, especially about 1,500 statues, from their perches has picked up across the country

- Not out of concern for the preposterous right-wing lament about the erasure of history, but because the task at hand is to purge the imagery in a way that guards against amnesia, while also transforming the statues from celebratory monuments to objective evidence.

- Over the last 70 years, the country has accepted a simple truth: Out of sight hardly means out of mind. The removal of the relics of a hateful social order is not in itself cause for celebration. It is the aftermath that matters.

What decent American could argue...with ANY of that? :ho:


.

[NoMoSno]

Wonder if Senator Byrd's portraits will be removed from the senate halls.
Senator Byrd (D)...member and "kleagle" (recruiter) for the KKK.

[JoMar]

Per your link...



What decent American could argue...with ANY of that? :ho:


.

Which is why we are where we are. Now, if you disagree you not a decent American. Where will it end.

[New Englander]

Our country is being torn down right before our eyes
Most of Washington embraces it

So true!

[fdpaq0580]

I do not know of anyone that was a slave owner and I do not know of anyone that was a slave (other than a friend that came over here as an indentured servant after WWII). None of my ancestors owned slaves, as far as I know. And if they did, it would have been in Europe, so how would reparations go in that case?
EVERYONE born in this country now has Constitutional Rights, so why would they think they are owed any "reparations?"
Before accusing me of "white denial" it would be well served if you knew my ethnicity. FYI: I come from a multi-ethnicity family, consisting of African Americans, Latino, Japanese, Filipino, and yes some European Americans. My family did not arrive in the U.S. until way after the Civil War, so why would I be obliged to donate my EARNED income toward a frivolous cause? And would our Indigenous Natives (American Indians), Japanese descendants confined to WWII camps, and Chinese RR workers, etc. also have a share in such Gov give aways?
Exactly how many different ways does America have to say they are sorry for unfavorable treatment before enough is considered enough? And is there any reason that I or anyone in my family should need to apologize for something I am not guilty of? I think not.

Maybe, the efforts to make you, your children, grandchildren or great grandchildren feel shame and guilt for long past grievances is a form of bullying to extort some kind of benefit (money, land or preferential treatment) under the guise of "reparation" for some awful thing that happened generations before they were born or could possibly have had any control over.
I had a friend that spent WW2 in a Japanese interment camp. He was surprised and shocked at the idea of reparations as he understood the context of the time and felt it unnecessary and insulted that anyone should think it necessary. Not the same as the slavery issue to be sure, still in the same context of depriving a people of their freedom.

[roscoguy]

Time for folks to get over it and get on with their lives.
Before accusing me of "white denial" it would be well served if you knew my ethnicity. FYI: I come from a multi-ethnicity family, consisting of African Americans, Latino, Japanese, Filipino, and yes some European Americans.OK then, how about multi-ethnic denial. Getting over it isn't all that easy for people that have been living with discrimination for hundreds of years and still are.

I do not know of anyone that was a slave owner and I do not know of anyone that was a slave (other than a friend that came over here as an indentured servant after WWII). None of my ancestors owned slaves, as far as I know. And if they did, it would have been in Europe, so how would reparations go in that case?
EVERYONE born in this country now has Constitutional Rights, so why would they think they are owed any "reparations?" My family did not arrive in the U.S. until way after the Civil War, so why would I be obliged to donate my EARNED income toward a frivolous cause? ... And is there any reason that I or anyone in my family should need to apologize for something I am not guilty of? I think not.
First, whether or not you know any slaves or owners is moot. Neither do I, but the practice did legally exist in this country for nearly 250 years.
Second, I never argued for reparations, but did say that following through with Gen Sherman's promise of 40 acres & a mule when it was first made, would have cost relatively little & may have gone a long ways to ease the pain of the released slaves. But obviously, that never happened.
Lastly, IF reparations were ordered by the federal government, your personal or family history in this country would not even be a consideration. A similar situation would be if someone moved to a country that was heavily sanctioned by the U.S. and said, "Why me?!?! What did I do to deserve this?"
And would our Indigenous Natives (American Indians), Japanese descendants confined to WWII camps, and Chinese RR workers, etc. also have a share in such Gov give aways?
Exactly how many different ways does America have to say they are sorry for unfavorable treatment before enough is considered enough?
I dunno. Again, I was not the one who raised the idea of reparations and truthfully, I doubt that it could do a lot of good at this late date. I suppose a lot of people could have a case; none stronger than African-Americans and Native Americans, IMO. Exactly how many different ways does America have to say they are sorry for unfavorable treatment before enough is considered enough?
Saying it hasn't really helped much so far.

[Stu from NYC]

OK then, how about multi-ethnic denial. Getting over it isn't all that easy for people that have been living with discrimination for hundreds of years and still are.


First, whether or not you know any slaves or owners is moot. Neither do I, but the practice did legally exist in this country for nearly 250 years.
Second, I never argued for reparations, but did say that following through with Gen Sherman's promise of 40 acres & a mule when it was first made, would have cost relatively little & may have gone a long ways to ease the pain of the released slaves. But obviously, that never happened.
Lastly, IF reparations were ordered by the federal government, your personal or family history in this country would not even be a consideration. A similar situation would be if someone moved to a country that was heavily sanctioned by the U.S. and said, "Why me?!?! What did I do to deserve this?"

I dunno. Again, I was not the one who raised the idea of reparations and truthfully, I doubt that it could do a lot of good at this late date. I suppose a lot of people could have a case; none stronger than African-Americans and Native Americans, IMO.
Saying it hasn't really helped much so far.

Other than perhaps WASPs every nationality has been discriminated against and the vast majority overcame it and live the American dream.

Some people should stop playing the victim and get on with their lives and work for what they want.

[ColdNoMore]

Which is why we are where we are. Now, if you disagree you not a decent American. Where will it end.

So I was wrong in assuming, "decent American's"...don't admire traitors to our country? :oops:


I guess I should be watching for a Benedict Arnold statue...going up somewhere soon? :ohdear:



I definitely like your sig line though...

"No one believes the truth when the lie is more interesting." :thumbup:

[ColdNoMore]

Wonder if Senator Byrd's portraits will be removed from the senate halls.
Senator Byrd (D)...member and "kleagle" (recruiter) for the KKK.

Wasn't he that guy that had the guts, courage and leadership to admit...that he had been wrong?

Very little of THAT going around these days. :oops:

[ColdNoMore]

Maybe, the efforts to make you, your children, grandchildren or great grandchildren feel shame and guilt for long past grievances is a form of bullying to extort some kind of benefit (money, land or preferential treatment) under the guise of "reparation" for some awful thing that happened generations before they were born or could possibly have had any control over.
I had a friend that spent WW2 in a Japanese interment camp. He was surprised and shocked at the idea of reparations as he understood the context of the time and felt it unnecessary and insulted that anyone should think it necessary. Not the same as the slavery issue to be sure, still in the same context of depriving a people of their freedom.

While the short Japanese internment was definitely shameful and a stain in its own right, it's not even in the same universe...as almost a century of nationally condoned slavery. :oops:


I heard someone, somewhere, say something that really resonated with me.

In essence..."we're just asking for acknowledgement and to address the problem...not revenge." :thumbup:

[NoMoSno]

Wasn't he that guy that had the guts, courage and leadership to admit...that he had been wrong?

Very little of THAT going around these days. :oops:
So I guess it's OK to be a clansman as long as you apologize...barf

[ColdNoMore]

So I guess it's OK to be a clansman as long as you apologize...barf

Wrong, it's never "OK"...and I never even implied that it was. :oops:

What is OK, is admitting you were wrong...and denouncing your old ways, actions & statements.

Or don't you believe people...are allowed to learn, grow and make themselves better?

If you say no, THAT would really...be a depressing thought. :ohdear:

[NoMoSno]

Wrong, it's never "OK"...and I never even implied that it was. :oops:

What is OK, is admitting you were wrong...and denouncing your old ways, actions & statements.

Or don't you believe people...are allowed to learn, grow and make themselves better?

If you say no, THAT would really...be a depressing thought. :ohdear:
Doesn't matter how YOU justify that having a portrait of a KKK kleagle hanging in the senate halls is OK.
It's hypocritical to remove civil war monuments but leave a remembrance of a KKK leader who was instrumental in getting these monuments erected.
Hippocracie at it's finest...:oops:

[ColdNoMore]

Doesn't matter how YOU justify that having a portrait of a KKK kleagle hanging in the senate halls is OK.
It's hypocritical to remove civil war monuments but leave a remembrance of a KKK leader who was instrumental in getting these monuments erected.
Hippocracie at it's finest...

Or don't you believe people...are allowed to learn, grow and make themselves better?

If you say no, THAT would really...be a depressing thought.

OK, you've answered my question...and proved my point. :oops:

You can officially label me as having..."depressing thoughts." :ohdear:

[NoMoSno]

OK, you've answered my question...and proved my point. :oops:

You can officially label me as having..."depressing thoughts." :ohdear:
The thread subject is about removing symbolic images that reflect poorly on our past. A US senator that was a KKK leader is not one to be revered, whether they "apologize" or not. Remove all or none.
Sorry this depresses you.

[ColdNoMore]

:1rotfl:

I get it already, no one is allowed to change, or admit and take actions that show...that they were wrong. :oops:

.

[NoMoSno]

:1rotfl:

I get it already, no one is allowed to change, or admit and take actions that show...that they were wrong. :oops:

.
No you don't "get it"....:oops:

[Dilligas]

FYI...Most of the looting burning, etc. was begun by white nationalists and neo-nazis...To incite chaos so blacks would be blamed...
Maybe they or some other party incited, but you didn’t see the “neo-nazi” doing the looting of the stores.....

[manaboutown]

So I guess it's OK to be a clansman as long as you apologize...barf

As long as you are a democrat. Robert Byrd - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)

or 9 out of 10 times one. Ku Klux Klan members in United States politics - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics)

[roscoguy]

Other than perhaps WASPs every nationality has been discriminated against and the vast majority overcame it and live the American dream.

Some people should stop playing the victim and get on with their lives and work for what they want.
Can I just use what ColdNoMore has said without restating what should be obvious?
While the short Japanese internment was definitely shameful and a stain in its own right, it's not even in the same universe...as almost a century of nationally condoned slavery. :oops:


I heard someone, somewhere, say something that really resonated with me.

In essence..."we're just asking for acknowledgement and to address the problem...not revenge." :thumbup:


Substitute 'discrimination against (whichever WASP nationality you like)' in place of the "short Japanese internment" above.
Some people should also quit denying that there still is racism in this country today and assuming that the playing field is level for all. We could all do better if we really want to fix the problem of racism & inequity in the U.S.

[Strongel]

Does equal mean special?

[Cheiro]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

Since most Americans are totally ignorant of the country's history, the answer is, absolutely. And this is particularly so since these remembrances are of those who were not only disloyal to the country, but actually took up arms to attack the United States. There is a term for those folks.....Traitors!

[Stu from NYC]

Since most Americans are totally ignorant of the country's history, the answer is, absolutely. And this is particularly so since these remembrances are of those who were not only disloyal to the country, but actually took up arms to attack the United States. There is a term for those folks.....Traitors!

Actually they didnt take up arms to attack the US. They took up arms when the south was invaded.

Talk to folks in the south and they will tell you the war was fought for states rights. A very small percentage of southerners owned slaves and the practice was dying out as it was becoming uneconomic.

Having said this slavery was an abhorrent act and should be condemned. However the leaders of that time should be evaluated according to the times.

Robert E Lee did some amazing things after the war and he is an important part of our history and should be remembered.

[coastalnh]

So true. Teaching history in the classroom should be our way of remembrance. We don't need to glorify the bigots with statues or the age of slavery by waving the Confederate flag. Those that stand for these things today are not history buffs. They are racists.

[Dust Bunny]

I doubt it! It's part of our heritage, good , bad or indifferent, it happened.

[fdpaq0580]

So I guess it's OK to be a clansman as long as you apologize...barf

I would think that being a clansman and saying "sorry" might not cut it, but expressing sorrow for having at one time been one before learning to be a better person, might at least be a step in the right direction.
IMHO, a person can apologize till the cows come home, still for some, that will never be enough. By the same token, there will also be those that will accept the apology and let bye gones be bye gones because they understand that continuing to live in the past or live with hatred serves no good purpose. Still, there are relatively small factions on all sides that continue to sow the seeds of hate and distrust for discord is their life blood and they feed on it like vampires.

[Stu from NYC]

I would think that being a clansman and saying "sorry" might not cut it, but expressing sorrow for having at one time been one before learning to be a better person, might at least be a step in the right direction.
IMHO, a person can apologize till the cows come home, still for some, that will never be enough. By the same token, there will also be those that will accept the apology and let bye gones be bye gones because they understand that continuing to live in the past or live with hatred serves no good purpose. Still, there are relatively small factions on all sides that continue to sow the seeds of hate and distrust for discord is their life blood and they feed on it like vampires.

good post

[NoMoSno]

I would think that being a clansman and saying "sorry" might not cut it, but expressing sorrow for having at one time been one before learning to be a better person, might at least be a step in the right direction.
IMHO, a person can apologize till the cows come home, still for some, that will never be enough. By the same token, there will also be those that will accept the apology and let bye gones be bye gones because they understand that continuing to live in the past or live with hatred serves no good purpose. Still, there are relatively small factions on all sides that continue to sow the seeds of hate and distrust for discord is their life blood and they feed on it like vampires.
Ask the black families whose relatives were hung by clansmen that were recruited by clansman Sen. Robert Byrd, if it's OK to have a portrait of him in the senate halls.

[fdpaq0580]

Wrong, it's never "OK"...and I never even implied that it was. :oops:

What is OK, is admitting you were wrong...and denouncing your old ways, actions & statements.

Or don't you believe people...are allowed to learn, grow and make themselves better?

If you say no, THAT would really...be a depressing thought. :ohdear:

"Learn, grow and make themselves better" is right on the money and applies to everyone.
Most of us are well aware of past and current problems and we should be trying to work together peacefully and respectfully if we ever want to move ahead. Those who engage in dialog should be able to see the whole picture, respect and try to understand all points of view, not just focus on a single aspect.
Like you said, and I agree, "we all need to learn, grow and make" ourselves better..

[Byte1]

Other than perhaps WASPs every nationality has been discriminated against and the vast majority overcame it and live the American dream.

Some people should stop playing the victim and get on with their lives and work for what they want.

Totally agree. Would one rather be a victim or a VICTOR? Racism is NOT systemic, period.

[ColdNoMore]

Other than perhaps WASPs every nationality has been discriminated against and the vast majority overcame it and live the American dream.

Some people should stop playing the victim and get on with their lives and work for what they want.

Remind us again, of how many of those immigrants came here in ropes & chains...and were/bought/sold as property?

Much less laws until the 60's, demanding that they have separate restrooms/water fountains/schools/Etc? :oops:

[Stu from NYC]

Remind us again, of how many of those immigrants came here in ropes & chains...and were/bought/sold as property?

Much less laws until the 60's, demanding that they have separate restrooms/water fountains/schools/Etc? :oops:

You do realize that ended 55 plus years ago in terms of separate facilities which of course was incredibly wrong.

Slavery end over 150 years ago perhaps you should get over it.

[billethkid]

And looking back in time applying/making judgements using today's measures is not accurate.

[Stu from NYC]

And looking back in time applying/making judgements using today's measures is not accurate.

For some reason people think they can do that in spite of it making no sense.

[roscoguy]

Actually they didnt take up arms to attack the US. They took up arms when the south was invaded.
These may be the original "alternate facts". "The bloodiest four years in American history begin when Confederate shore batteries under General P.G.T. Beauregard open fire on Union-held Fort Sumter in South Carolina’s Charleston Bay." U.S. Civil War Begins - HISTORY (https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-civil-war-begins)
Talk to folks in the south and they will tell you the war was fought for states rights. A very small percentage of southerners owned slaves and the practice was dying out as it was becoming uneconomic.
More of the same: all 5 of the original states to declare cessation specifically mention slavery. I'm not going to quote each declaration; you can read them for yourself here: The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | American Battlefield Trust (https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#Georgia) Your second statement here is a no-brainer: armies as a rule are made up mostly of commoners. Nobody ever thought it was only slave owners that did the fighting & dying.
Having said this slavery was an abhorrent act and should be condemned. However the leaders of that time should be evaluated according to the times.
They are and were being evaluated according to the time. They each fought against the U.S. government to uphold the southern tradition of slavery.
Robert E Lee did some amazing things after the war and he is an important part of our history and should be remembered.If he should be remembered because of the amazing things he did after the war, how many of the statues of R.E. Lee DO NOT show him in Confederate military uniform?

[roscoguy]

You do realize that ended 55 plus years ago in terms of separate facilities which of course was incredibly wrong. So, everything has been all sunshine & roses for blacks since then?

Slavery end over 150 years ago perhaps you should get over it. Or was it actually since way back then??? :shrug: :rolleyes:

[Bay Kid]

Hitler tried to remove history.

[Stu from NYC]

So, everything has been all sunshine & roses for blacks since then?

Or was it actually since way back then??? :shrug: :rolleyes:

The US is not perfect but we have made a substantial amount of progress in past 50 years.

[slbellmd]

You are missing the point. Acknowledging the mistakes of the past is not equivalent to celebrating them. No one is suggesting we start naming new streets and erecting new statues to past mistakes. The presence of evidence of these things should serve as a reminder of where we have been and where we should go. When your children made mistakes, did you hope they learned from them and became better persons, or did you disown them? And what happens when the next generation of revisionists comes along and obliterates all of your versions of history?

[NotFromAroundHere]

You are missing the point. Acknowledging the mistakes of the past is not equivalent to celebrating them.

I think you might be missing the point.

None of the statues of southern traitors were erected to "acknowledge mistakes". They were all put up to celebrate those traitors.

[slbellmd]

Woodrow Wilson was not a traitor. He was a president. He was a scholar. He supported womens' suffrage and the League of Nations. His racism was only one part of his personna. Should we have removed his statue from Princeton University? Or should Black Americans walk by it every day as proof he was wrong about race. Don't remove it and hide it; talk about it.

[ColdNoMore]

I think you might be missing the point.

None of the statues of southern traitors were erected to "acknowledge mistakes".

They were all put up to celebrate those traitors.

YEP...EXACTLY! :oops:

AND to try and intimidate those protesting about and wanting to eliminate...Jim Crow laws. :ohdear:

[anothersteve]

I just love the way some just skim over the posts they don't like or agree with.
Steve

[ColdNoMore]

You do realize that ended 55 plus years ago in terms of separate facilities which of course was incredibly wrong.

Slavery end over 150 years ago perhaps you should get over it.

I have a better idea.

Are you standing up...after watching this?

And this certainly isn't...55+ years ago. :oops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yrg7vV4a5o

[chet2020]

You are missing the point. Acknowledging the mistakes of the past is not equivalent to celebrating them. No one is suggesting we start naming new streets and erecting new statues to past mistakes. The presence of evidence of these things should serve as a reminder of where we have been and where we should go. When your children made mistakes, did you hope they learned from them and became better persons, or did you disown them? And what happens when the next generation of revisionists comes along and obliterates all of your versions of history?

The statues were not historical, they were propaganda. There is no revisionism going on here, there are no facts in dispute. Society is evolving and the statues are becoming more and more distasteful.

[Bay Kid]

We should remove ALL statues in this country. Someone is always offended by something.

We could replace them all with pacifier statues.

[Stu from NYC]

We should remove ALL statues in this country. Someone is always offended by something.

We could replace them all with pacifier statues.

Sad isnt it

[billethkid]

Where was all this hate for historic statues/etc last month? Last year?

I say once again to be concluding the intent of history using the current social yard stick is unfair/inaccurate/wrong.

The current upheaval is once again sponsored by minority and special interest groups driven by a political/personal agenda, validated and promoted by the same political supported media.

[Byte1]

OK then, how about multi-ethnic denial. Getting over it isn't all that easy for people that have been living with discrimination for hundreds of years and still are.
Like I said, no one should be "living with discrimination" today.

First, whether or not you know any slaves or owners is moot. Neither do I, but the practice did legally exist in this country for nearly 250 years.
Second, I never argued for reparations, but did say that following through with Gen Sherman's promise of 40 acres & a mule when it was first made, would have cost relatively little & may have gone a long ways to ease the pain of the released slaves. But obviously, that never happened.
Lastly, IF reparations were ordered by the federal government, your personal or family history in this country would not even be a consideration. A similar situation would be if someone moved to a country that was heavily sanctioned by the U.S. and said, "Why me?!?! What did I do to deserve this?"

I dunno. Again, I was not the one who raised the idea of reparations and truthfully, I doubt that it could do a lot of good at this late date. I suppose a lot of people could have a case; none stronger than African-Americans and Native Americans, IMO.
Saying it hasn't really helped much so far.
How would ANYONE have a "case" for reparations? Would they be granted it based on the color of their skin?

How many ways does the country have to say that it's sorry for what folks in the past did? When I said this before, I was including the means of saying "sorry" such as affirmative action/quotas, school grants to minorities, quotas, etc. Is holding today's taxpayer accountable for someone else's mistakes, not the same as punishing the innocent?

[Stu from NYC]

Where was all this hate for historic statues/etc last month? Last year?

I say once again to be concluding the intent of history using the current social yard stick is unfair/inaccurate/wrong.

The current upheaval is once again sponsored by minority and special interest groups driven by a political/personal agenda, validated and promoted by the same political supported media.

I do not understand where all this hatred really comes from.

This is the greatest country in the history of the world where we have more freedom and chance to make something of ourselves with people wanting to come here by the millions and yet so many of our citizens hate this country.

Do some groups have it more difficult than others. Yes but they have the opportunity to help themselves but do not see how destruction is the answer.

Burn down my business, cause me to lose my job, block the roads does that really going to get people to look at a cause more favorably?

[LI SNOWBIRD]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?
I add ..In Search of Lost Time - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Lost_Time) all 7 volumes

[mtlee024]

So you are now the great emancipator. You don't have the right to tell me, or anyone, what we should know about our history. I want to know it all, otherwise we will make the same mistakes. If you had it your way, I guess you wouldn't even teach history. As long as race is used as an excuse to make bad or no decisions about your life, you will always lose and racism will not go away. As long as you used race, injustice, or whatever to burn, loot, and hurt other people you are the problem so it will not go away. Instead of removing something about our history, why not add something. All I see is all these people, you included, tell us all of the problems, but I don't see any useful solutions. Certainly, tearing down statues, burning businesses, looting, hurting people and taking over city blocks are not solution. Or, I ask you , are they?

[ColdNoMore]

Where was all this hate for historic statues/etc last month? Last year?

I say once again to be concluding the intent of history using the current social yard stick is unfair/inaccurate/wrong.

The current upheaval is once again sponsored by minority and special interest groups driven by a political/personal agenda, validated and promoted by the same political supported media.

If you actually choose to look/research, you'll find that this issue has been ongoing...for a LONG time.

Please note that this article was written in 2017. :ho:

Opposition to confederate statues and flags (poke here) (http://www.businessinsider.com/confederate-statues-meaning-timeline-history-2017-8)

As you can see in the timeline below, the number of Confederate memorial installations peaked around 1910 — 50 years after the end of the Civil War and at the height of Jim Crow, an era defined by segregation and disenfranchisement laws against black Americans.

Confederate installations spiked again in the 1950s and 1960s, during the Civil Rights Movement.

https://i.insider.com/59972560b0e0b51d008b603e?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp

[ColdNoMore]

So you are now the great emancipator. You don't have the right to tell me, or anyone, what we should know about our history. I want to know it all, otherwise we will make the same mistakes. If you had it your way, I guess you wouldn't even teach history. As long as race is used as an excuse to make bad or no decisions about your life, you will always lose and racism will not go away. As long as you used race, injustice, or whatever to burn, loot, and hurt other people you are the problem so it will not go away. Instead of removing something about our history, why not add something. All I see is all these people, you included, tell us all of the problems, but I don't see any useful solutions. Certainly, tearing down statues, burning businesses, looting, hurting people and taking over city blocks are not solution. Or, I ask you , are they?

Most decent and reasonable folks...don't want them destroyed.

They're too valuable as a learning & teaching moment...to do that.

Just take them off of school grounds, courthouses and other prominent public locations, put them where school children can make field trips...and learn the actual history behind those statues and monuments. :ho:

[nututv]

We could replace them all with pacifier statues.

Amen! And a box of tissues beside them all.
Life has become too easy for people. 50 plus years ago you were too busy working so you and the family didn't starve to death to even wonder who's statue was who.
Now they sit back, collect assistance and ponder what to protest next. Often times in the basements of their parents home where they live.

[roscoguy]

Saying it hasn't really helped much so far.
How would ANYONE have a "case" for reparations? Would they be granted it based on the color of their skin?Like I already said, "... I was not the one who raised the idea of reparations and truthfully, I doubt that it could do a lot of good at this late date. I suppose a lot of people could have a case; none stronger than African-Americans and Native Americans, IMO." And again, IF there were any chance of reparations (emphasis once again on the IF), African-Americans and Native Americans would almost have to be the first groups of people considered. I thought that was easily understood.How many ways does the country have to say that it's sorry for what folks in the past did? When I said this before, I was including the means of saying "sorry" such as affirmative action/quotas, school grants to minorities, quotas, etc. Is holding today's taxpayer accountable for someone else's mistakes, not the same as punishing the innocent?I really don't know "how many ways." If your ancestors endured slavery for hundreds of years, then decades of legalized discrimination, targeted violence such as lynching, etc., and were then continually reminded of the war to retain slavery via flags & monuments to the leaders of the Confederate states, what would it take before you believed that "sorry" was sincere? Since it is impossible to hold guilty parties of the past financially responsible, how exactly would you suggest funding any programs to amend for past mistakes? I really don't feel that I am being punished by affirmative action, school grants or putting Civil War monuments in museums. Interesting that you seem to...

[Madelaine Amee]

How many of us have ever watched the PBS Program "Who do you Think You Are". I have watched episodes where black celebrities have been brought face to face with evidence that they are descended from slaves. When they see the evidence in black and white in front of them it reduces them to tears.

The saying Walk a Mile in my shoes applies.

Having said that, I still cannot agree with removing the history of this country. Whether we like it or not, it happened and removing the evidence does not remove the history books. We keep the remains of the concentration camps in Germany and other Eastern European countries to remind humanity to never let it happen again. Maybe we should be doing the same thing here.

[GoodLife]

How many of us have ever watched the PBS Program "Who do you Think You Are". I have watched episodes where black celebrities have been brought face to face with evidence that they are descended from slaves. When they see the evidence in black and white in front of them it reduces them to tears.

The saying Walk a Mile in my shoes applies.

Having said that, I still cannot agree with removing the history of this country. Whether we like it or not, it happened and removing the evidence does not remove the history books.

Speaking of history, every person on earth has ancestors that were once slaves. It's been going on since the first civilizations in Mesopotamia and China.

Maybe we should erase all history. We could also give everyone some of that sweet reparations money.

[billethkid]

I continue to repeat and thank GOD every day for us having come through life when we did/have.

For now we can only hope the silent majority will get to a point where enough is enough....and start pushing back against the destructive politics and special interest groups.

[karostay]

If they succeed in erasing history how will the future learn from the past

[Stu from NYC]

Saying it hasn't really helped much so far.
Like I already said, "... I was not the one who raised the idea of reparations and truthfully, I doubt that it could do a lot of good at this late date. I suppose a lot of people could have a case; none stronger than African-Americans and Native Americans, IMO." And again, IF there were any chance of reparations (emphasis once again on the IF), African-Americans and Native Americans would almost have to be the first groups of people considered. I thought that was easily understood.I really don't know "how many ways." If your ancestors endured slavery for hundreds of years, then decades of legalized discrimination, targeted violence such as lynching, etc., and were then continually reminded of the war to retain slavery via flags & monuments to the leaders of the Confederate states, what would it take before you believed that "sorry" was sincere? Since it is impossible to hold guilty parties of the past financially responsible, how exactly would you suggest funding any programs to amend for past mistakes? I really don't feel that I am being punished by affirmative action, school grants or putting Civil War monuments in museums. Interesting that you seem to...

There are many shameful things that were done in the past.
However slavery is long gone, no more lynchings, spent trillions on war on poverty.
Is there still some racism, of course but things are a heck of a lot better than before.
We owe everyone a level playing field and equal opportunity but we all must work to get ahead, relying on the govt is a great way to get left behind.
Too many parents do not instill a work ethic in their children and that is a huge failing.

[roscoguy]

Maybe we should erase all history.Who exactly is suggesting that history be erased? Removing statues honoring Confederate Civil War leaders from public display is NOT erasing history. Maybe they belong in a museum or other memorial to the war period instead of being proudly displayed at courtrooms, parks & state government offices.We could also give everyone some of that sweet reparations money.just stirring that pot... :rant-rave:

[roscoguy]

There are many shameful things that were done in the past.
However slavery is long gone, no more lynchings, spent trillions on war on poverty.
Is there still some racism, of course but things are a heck of a lot better than before.
We owe everyone a level playing field and equal opportunity but we all must work to get ahead, relying on the govt is a great way to get left behind.
Too many parents do not instill a work ethic in their children and that is a huge failing.

:agree: Thanks for all of that! I knew there had to be some common ground. :thumbup:

[Bay Kid]

If they succeed in erasing history how will the future learn from the past

2020 history will be embarrassing. No telling what will happen in the next 6 months.

[ColdNoMore]

Who exactly is suggesting that history be erased? Removing statues honoring Confederate Civil War leaders from public display is NOT erasing history. Maybe they belong in a museum or other memorial to the war period instead of being proudly displayed at courtrooms, parks & state government offices.

just stirring that pot... :rant-rave:

The success of certain demographics, is to try and bring out internal rage and vitriol...then finding/manufacturing a target for that rage.

[NoMoSno]

Who exactly is suggesting that history be erased? Removing statues honoring Confederate Civil War leaders from public display is NOT erasing history. Maybe they belong in a museum or other memorial to the war period instead of being proudly displayed at courtrooms, parks & state government offices.just stirring that pot... :rant-rave:
How do you feel about Sen. Robert Byrd's portrait being proudly displayed in the halls of the senate?
He was a KKK member responsible for recruiting other KKK members, responsible for many black lynchings.
He did say "sorry, my bad" tho.

[ColdNoMore]

How do you feel about Sen. Robert Byrd's portrait being proudly displayed in the halls of the senate?
He was a KKK member responsible for recruiting other KKK members, responsible for many black lynchings.

He did say "sorry, my bad" tho.

And after that apology, went on...and walked the talk.

Unlike so many other people, whose overriding mantra is..."NEVER admit to being wrong." :ohdear:

[Aloha1]

Woodrow Wilson was not a traitor. He was a president. He was a scholar. He supported womens' suffrage and the League of Nations. His racism was only one part of his personna. Should we have removed his statue from Princeton University? Or should Black Americans walk by it every day as proof he was wrong about race. Don't remove it and hide it; talk about it.

And Wilson resegregated the military. It took Truman to reverse that. Wilson was also a fan of Eugenics.

[roscoguy]

How do you feel about Sen. Robert Byrd's portrait being proudly displayed in the halls of the senate?
He was a KKK member responsible for recruiting other KKK members, responsible for many black lynchings.
He did say "sorry, my bad" tho.

Don't know that much of his story. After a bit of quick research, I'd say he had a checkered past at the very least. I don't know anything about the lynchings you refer to or where you got that information; my searches came up with nothing.

But honestly, how does this relate to the question of removing Confederate leaders from public display?

[NoMoSno]

Don't know that much of his story. After a bit of quick research, I'd say he had a checkered past at the very least. I don't know anything about the lynchings you refer to or where you got that information; my searches came up with nothing.

But honestly, how does this relate to the question of removing Confederate leaders from public display?
Confederate leaders were racist.
Robert Byrd was racist.
His portrait is displayed in the senate halls.

[Stu from NYC]

And Wilson resegregated the military. It took Truman to reverse that. Wilson was also a fan of Eugenics.

Are you saying that the military was integrated but that Woodrow Wilson resegregated it?

Wow never heard that one before.

[NotFromAroundHere]

The current upheaval is once again sponsored by minority and special interest groups driven by a political/personal agenda, validated and promoted by the same political supported media.

The same could have been said of just about anything. In relation to this thread, that statement would apply perfectly to secession movement of the early 1860's.

[roscoguy]

Confederate leaders were racist.
Robert Byrd was racist.
His portrait is displayed in the senate halls.

Maybe the word "was" is pretty important to consider. Byrd "filibustered against the 1964 Civil Rights Act and supported the Vietnam War, but later renounced racism and segregation" Robert Byrd - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)
Also this: "While in office, he earned the praises of civil rights advocates. However, prior to his political career, Byrd was a high-ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan during the early 1940s." Senator Robert Byrd and the Ku Klux Klan (https://www.thoughtco.com/robert-byrd-kkk-4147055)
You seem almost desperate to make a point here. I can't figure out exactly what it is though. :confused:

[Bay Kid]

My favorite subject was Virginia History. Taught in the 4th grade.

[NoMoSno]

Maybe the word "was" is pretty important to consider. Byrd "filibustered against the 1964 Civil Rights Act and supported the Vietnam War, but later renounced racism and segregation" Robert Byrd - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd)
Also this: "While in office, he earned the praises of civil rights advocates. However, prior to his political career, Byrd was a high-ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan during the early 1940s." Senator Robert Byrd and the Ku Klux Klan (https://www.thoughtco.com/robert-byrd-kkk-4147055)
You seem almost desperate to make a point here. I can't figure out exactly what it is though. :confused:
My point is if we are going to remove symbols of racism on public display, remove them all or none. Not pick and choose.
IMO none should be removed, and use them as a learning tool for future generations.

[Number 10 GI]

Hitler tried to remove history.

So did Stalin and the communists were very good at it.

[Number 10 GI]

I have a better idea.

Are you standing up...after watching this?

And this certainly isn't...55+ years ago. :oops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yrg7vV4a5o

Blah, blah, blah, white people are evil, blah, blah, all white people are racists, blah, blah, blah, it's all white people's fault, blah, blah, BS.

[Number 10 GI]

How many ways does the country have to say that it's sorry for what folks in the past did? When I said this before, I was including the means of saying "sorry" such as affirmative action/quotas, school grants to minorities, quotas, etc. Is holding today's taxpayer accountable for someone else's mistakes, not the same as punishing the innocent?

I am not apologizing for anything, my family never owned slaves. I wasn't alive back then and had no hand in supporting slavery. In fact my maternal bunches of great grandfather came to America as an indentured servant. I guess I should demand some kind of restitution for hardship he endured. I demand that the name "America" be changed because of his servitude.

[Number 10 GI]

And after that apology, went on...and walked the talk.

Unlike so many other people, whose overriding mantra is..."NEVER admit to being wrong." :ohdear:

Explain how it is OK to grant absolution to Byrd for what he did because he "walked the talk" but Lee is the devil incarnate even if after the war he did what he could to atone for his actions.

[roscoguy]

My point is if we are going to remove symbols of racism on public display, remove them all or none. Not pick and choose.
IMO none should be removed, and use them as a learning tool for future generations.

A huge difference seems to be that Byrd, for all his early-life prejudices, seems to have changed his tune & denounced racism during his political career. He also never declared war on the U.S. government nor fought against the U.S. armed forces. Certain people are trying to turn a thread originally about removing heroic monuments of the Confederate leaders into a rant about 'erasing history' and removing all 'symbols of racism'. I have actually seen or heard no such calls anywhere but here.

[roscoguy]

Explain how it is OK to grant absolution to Byrd for what he did because he "walked the talk" but Lee is the devil incarnate even if after the war he did what he could to atone for his actions.

Where did you yank this "devil incarnate" business from??? Like I've already asked, even assuming Lee really was a hero after the war, how many of the statues of him DON'T show him in Confederate military uniform? Whether on not he earned absolution, Byrd's portrait in the Senate sure don't portray him in KKK costume.

[ColdNoMore]

Snip...>

You seem almost desperate to make a point here. I can't figure out exactly what it is though. :confused:

I think your answer is in post #158. :ho:


Blah, blah, blah, white people are evil, blah, blah, all white people are racists, blah, blah, blah, it's all white people's fault, blah, blah, BS.

[ColdNoMore]

Explain how it is OK to grant absolution to Byrd for what he did because he "walked the talk" but Lee is the devil incarnate even if after the war he did what he could to atone for his actions.

Lee was a TRAITOROUS LOSER, who tried to ensure that slavery continued and that there was no longer a...UNITED States of America.

:ho:


.

[Aloha1]

I am SO itching to answer this with actual facts of how a certain demographic left one group and went to another, but can't because...

NO POLITICAL REFERENCES ARE ALLOWED ON THE WEBSITE.


:ho:


.
Curious to see what "facts" you'll pull out. Please do a historical search. Oh, and keep it to the POINT of my comment. I did not reference any particular demographic. Stay on point.

[Fredman]

What is being completely overlooked is the timing/date of when these remembrances were authorized/constructed.

To look back or at them today measuring by today's standards is unreasonable. The remembrances have been around/accepted for more than one generation.

So now all of a sudden minority and special interest groups have arbitrarily made the decisions for the American people to do away with them.

A comparison? The book burning in the Nazi Germany era.



Shameful that federal, state and local governments continue to allow the dismantling of what was and is America.....like it or not!!

I could not have said it any better

[Fredman]

Then u will want them removed from the museums

[Fredman]

I will agree to reparations if they use the money to pay back the welfare system

[thomp679]

Sad that schools do not teach our history .

Can we get a fact check on this? Much of history told in the past was spun by the writers of the time. 'Our' written history hid much of what actually went on.

[Northwoods]

What's next.
The kind of car one drives.
The color of your house.
Which way is the wind blowing.

When dealing with people who have nothing invested, keep in mind they have nothing to lose.

I am waiting for the time when they ATTEMPT, to attack the American flag.

I'll tell you what's next... emoji's. :MOJE_whot:
I feel that the overuse of emoji's :shocked: is condescending to the reader. :blahblahblah:
Do you ever notice that some people have to litter every post with emoji's? :a040:

I feel that the poster is adding an emoji because they feel I am too stupid to understand their point. :ohdear:
I feel victimized by this aggressive action. :boxing2:
So my vote on the next thing to eradicate is overuse of emoji's. :clap2: :coolsmiley:
(DId you know you can only use a maximum of 10 emoji's? I bet some of you knew that...
:popcorn:

[anothersteve]

I'll tell you what's next... emoji's. :MOJE_whot:
I feel that the overuse of emoji's :shocked: is condescending to the reader. :blahblahblah:
Do you ever notice that some people have to litter every post with emoji's? :a040:

I feel that the poster is adding an emoji because they feel I am too stupid to understand their point. :ohdear:
I feel victimized by this aggressive action. :boxing2:
So my vote on the next thing to eradicate is overuse of emoji's. :clap2: :coolsmiley:
(DId you know you can only use a maximum of 10 emoji's? I bet some of you knew that...
:popcorn:

Funny!!
Steve

[manaboutown]

I will agree to reparations if they use the money to pay back the welfare system

It's about time the welfare deadbeats repaid the taxpayers.

[Bay Kid]

The only history that will be left is the destruction of America. So sad.

[coffeebean]

Well said!

You did not quote the person you commented "well said" to. When you don't quote a comment, I have no idea who you addressed this comment to. Who did you say, "well said" to?????? I have no idea because there are several comments before this statement that you could have addressed your comment to.

Now....back to the subject of this thread.................

[LynneH]

I believe if history was more truthful, the statues you mention might remain with identifiable information about the reality of the circumstances that led to the Civil War, but they were erected afterward with a romanticism that never existed... The South formed a resurrection against their country, the United States of America. This was an act of treason. Currently, the statues glorify people who were traitors to their country.

[LynneH]

Your response seems to indicate that you have grouped all African Americans as deadbeats and accepting welfare. This is as untrue as all caucasians live in trailer parks and have their children out of wedlock. Both are demeaning of an entire group of people when in reality, both groups have some people who are deadbeats and others who are not. Both groups have people who are poor and undereducated as well as those who are not. Both groups have children out of wedlock as well as children within a marriage. Your words shape your reality, but not necessarily with the truth.

[LynneH]

I could not have said it any better

You have pinpointed exactly the issue of presenting history accurately, or inaccurately, I should say. History is told with a slant. The books used in classrooms are chosen based upon what story slant "we" want to highlight. What you are calling history being erased is actually history+. It is history that has been excluded and is now being included. The statues can go to a museum without losing history, but the rounding out of the historical narrative is what has been missing throughout our Baby Boomer lifetime.

[LynneH]

Will people be happy once all the remembrance of the past is removed?

We humans do not like change and at some point there will be a balance in the historical narrative. But right now, there is a lot of misinformation about history that should be addressed. Her is a tidbit relating to the Aunt Jemima controversy--

Among the more derogatory images that populated American culture in the century from after the Civil War through the Civil Rights Era were the Coon and the Mammy.
The Mammy caricature was used to justify the myth of happy slaves, devoted to their white families. The caricature served to also mask the sexual exploitation and abuse of black women, both antebellum and during Reconstruction and Jim Crow.
"Mammy was "black, fat, head covered with a kerchief to hide her non-straight hair, strong, kind, loyal, sexless, religious and superstitious" (Christian, 1980, pp. 11-12). She spoke bastardized English as a way to show subservience. She was politically safe. She was culturally safe. She was, of course, a figment of the white imagination, a nostalgic yearning for a reality that never had been."
A popular market version of Mammy is: Aunt Jemima.
Please have a read of this excellent, well researched article from Ferris State University's Jim Crow museum, posted in 2012. It mentions the various ways in which the Mammy caricature has been commercialized in American culture, including the Aunt Jemima brand.
The Mammy Caricature - Anti-black Imagery - Jim Crow Museum - Ferris State University (https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/?fbclid=IwAR08m9U7I4PQv31dauMiZmK0F4n19TrWAhWxfXrF 1gsqcpT4mFWUcOq0vkQ)

[NoMoSno]

...and now thugs are tearing down George Washington statues
Protesters topple George Washington statue in Oregon - New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-oregon-protesters-tear-down-staute-20200620-mthldo4zjjcura4e53c5tnifry-story.html)
Will they be burning their dollar bills?

[fdpaq0580]

We humans do not like change and at some point there will be a balance in the historical narrative. But right now, there is a lot of misinformation about history that should be addressed. Her is a tidbit relating to the Aunt Jemima controversy--

Among the more derogatory images that populated American culture in the century from after the Civil War through the Civil Rights Era were the Coon and the Mammy.
The Mammy caricature was used to justify the myth of happy slaves, devoted to their white families. The caricature served to also mask the sexual exploitation and abuse of black women, both antebellum and during Reconstruction and Jim Crow.
"Mammy was "black, fat, head covered with a kerchief to hide her non-straight hair, strong, kind, loyal, sexless, religious and superstitious" (Christian, 1980, pp. 11-12). She spoke bastardized English as a way to show subservience. She was politically safe. She was culturally safe. She was, of course, a figment of the white imagination, a nostalgic yearning for a reality that never had been."
A popular market version of Mammy is: Aunt Jemima.
Please have a read of this excellent, well researched article from Ferris State University's Jim Crow museum, posted in 2012. It mentions the various ways in which the Mammy caricature has been commercialized in American culture, including the Aunt Jemima brand.
The Mammy Caricature - Anti-black Imagery - Jim Crow Museum - Ferris State University (https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/?fbclid=IwAR08m9U7I4PQv31dauMiZmK0F4n19TrWAhWxfXrF 1gsqcpT4mFWUcOq0vkQ)

As, I believe you mentioned in a previous post, all history is slanted, than it must be possible that this may also be a slanted view. I am not saying it is, just agreeing with your earlier point that history is slanted.
In the text you site, the "Mammy character", "She spoke bastardized English to show subservience". The reason I suspect the afore-mentioned "slant" is that several years ago when someone mentioned "the black way of speaking" it was Jesse Jackson who spoke up in defense of that way of speaking and even legitimized it by calling it Ebonics.
In my humble opinion, many cultures have used a form of "pigeon-English" or a dialect or accent to communicate without it necessarily to show subservience.
Certainly there was racism, and there certainly still is. But focusing on old stereotypes only serves to deflect us from work needed to make real and substantial progress in race relations.
Oh, and by the way, the description of the "Mammy" character in your sited article would have fit my German grandmother exactly when she cooked Sunday dinner for us when I was little. The only thing in that description that did not apply to my grandma was the color reference.

[NotFromAroundHere]

My point is if we are going to remove symbols of racism on public display, remove them all or none. Not pick and choose.
IMO none should be removed, and use them as a learning tool for future generations.

So nobody should ever try to remedy any problem unless they can guarantee 100% success in one fell swoop. Sounds like a recipe for never getting anything done.

[Stu from NYC]

...and now thugs are tearing down George Washington statues
Protesters topple George Washington statue in Oregon - New York Daily News (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-oregon-protesters-tear-down-staute-20200620-mthldo4zjjcura4e53c5tnifry-story.html)
Will they be burning their dollar bills?

The stupidity is disgusting. I do not understand the govt standing by and letting this destruction continue

[Bay Kid]

Monument Ave. in Richmond, VA is now the armpit of the country, 2nd only to Portland. Filthy, rude, and destructive. The history they represent is not our beautiful country.
Do these people ever work?

[alwann]

Now it's getting silly:

Following the graffiting of the signs, though, Liverpool’s Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram made international news after proclaiming the famed street name may be changed if there was evidence it was named after 1700s slave trader James Penny. “If it is as a direct consequence of that road being called Penny Lane because of James Penny, then that needs to be investigated,” Rotheram said. “Something needs to happen and I would say that sign and that road may well be in danger of being renamed.

[Stu from NYC]

Now it's getting silly:

Following the graffiting of the signs, though, Liverpool’s Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram made international news after proclaiming the famed street name may be changed if there was evidence it was named after 1700s slave trader James Penny. “If it is as a direct consequence of that road being called Penny Lane because of James Penny, then that needs to be investigated,” Rotheram said. “Something needs to happen and I would say that sign and that road may well be in danger of being renamed.

I blame the Beatles for this as they made Penny Lane famous as well as Liverpool.

[Bay Kid]

Still trashing Richmond, VA last night/this morning. 2 AM trying to destroy history.