Southern heritage.

[TimeForChange]

Born and raised in the South and a proud American. Have lived in four Southern States except for my time serving my Country (AL, GA, TX, FL) in my 74.5 years. My ancestors including my great, great grandfather fought in the Civil War for the South and two of his brothers died defending Atlanta. That is part of my family history and I will never give up my Southern heritage, my Southern accent or my love of Southern food and all the great places in the South. I fought with all races, colors in Vietnam and never really had a problem. They were all brothers to me. We can tear down all the statues we want, change all the names we want but I will never be ashamed of my family or being from the South. You can change "things or objects" but you cannot change the history. It is what it is! Blast away! :boom:

[Byte1]

Today, instead of burning books that don't fit the narrative, they tear down statues and just quietly remove history books from public schools. Kind of reminiscent of Nazi Germany, the USSR, Cuba, etc. Now, street names and monuments also have to be removed or changed. Who's scared of the truth? If we erase the truth, does that mean that it did not happen? Oh well, if they wish to remove reminders of what happened, some will no longer have an excuse.....a crutch for failure.

[Stu from NYC]

All I would say is thank you for your service to our country.

[karostay]

If they want to burn something go back to 70's and burn their Bras.
Then will have something to look forward too...:eek:

[stadry]

amen, change,,, all our blood was the same color

[davem4616]

I wonder how much it would cost a company like Winn-Dixie to rebrand if they decided to change their name

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

I personally don’t have a problem with a statue honoring the common Confederate soldier but all the political and military statues of there leaders should be taken down and put in museums , I have felt this way since high school history.Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis should have been hung as traitors, walk through any graveyard in New York was that England and see the names of the dead to realize what carnage they caused to preserve away of life that so few profited from

[charlieo1126@gmail.com]

I personally don’t have a problem with a statue honoring the common Confederate soldier but all the political and military statues of there leaders should be taken down and put in museums , I have felt this way since high school history.Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis should have been hung as traitors, walk through any graveyard in New York was that England and see the names of the dead to realize what carnage they caused to preserve away of life that so few profited from though any graveyard in New England

[karostay]

History History History at times its not pretty We can't change it. By golly we can learn from it...I don't see that happening sadly

[blueash]

So as I read the OP, he seems to be saying he has no objection to removing statues which in full Confederate regalia, honor those whose fought against the United States and in support of a regime that in its Constitution and the statements of its leaders was formed to protect slavery.

If I were a grandchild of a person who fought for Germany in the 1930's I could well be proud of the courage with which my grandfather fought. If I were the son of a suicide bomber who came out of the Palestinian camps in Gaza I could well be proud of his courage in support of my people against what I honestly believed was intolerable oppression.

But I would not expect the people of France to erect a statue in Paris honoring the Nazi cause or to name a street or a military base in honor of Goering.

Somehow the Israelis have resisted the temptation to put up a nice statue of Arafat in Jerusalem. No one questions the courage or the sincerity of conviction of those who fought for the enemy.

You won't see any General Custer statues on Native lands. You don't see any monuments to General Sherman anywhere in the South. No statues, no street names, no college buildings with his name.

So don't tell me that statues and namings are simply a reflection of history. They are a reflection of support for the ideals fought for by those honored. The Confederacy was built on the promise of the continuation of Slavery. Period. Its constitution which so many think promoted "States Rights" in fact did not. It said that no state in the Confederacy could abolish slavery. It was the unassailable requirement for participation in the CSA.

Remember the words of George Wallace 100 years after the Civil War. Words which reflected his view of how the nation needed to be, how he saw the mixing of black and white people, how the South and much of the North still felt in the 1960's not the 1860's.

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

That is a concise summary of Wallace's platform. Just substitute the world slavery for segregation and you have the summary of the bedrock of the Confederacy. Is that a political system which we should be honoring in the USA? Is that something that just maybe a black person might find offensive? Those are not beautiful statues honoring our history. They are statues honoring those who fought to defend to the death the horrible horrible enslavement of humans.

Please read the "cornerstone" speech given by the VP of the CSA. He explains that the founders of the USA, and refers to Jefferson, all believed that slavery was wrong but were unable to find a way to eliminate it.

It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time.

He admits that slavery was viewed as evil by the USA but, as he goes on to explain, they were wrong.

Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error...our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

This is a concise and very clear statement that the CSA was formed to continue slavery. That the view of those who flew the stars and bars was that it was a moral truth that the negro was an inferior whose natural place was to be subordinate to the white race.

To say that a moral person, black, brown, or white should not find that "truth" extremely offensive astounds me. And to believe that anywhere there should be a statue celebrating people for whom that "truth" was a foundational piece of their belief is no different from honoring those who believed Jews were less than human. Maybe even worse because the Nazis didn't fight for the right to kill Jews. They fought for German economic superiority and the sincerely held belief in Aryan superiority. We don't lionize the German soldier nor the German generals with statues.

Be proud of your southern heritage. But if you are proud of the Confederacy and the deplorable bedrock upon which it was built ...

[ColdNoMore]

I personally don’t have a problem with a statue honoring the common Confederate soldier but all the political and military statues of there leaders should be taken down and put in museums , I have felt this way since high school history.

Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis should have been hung as traitors, walk through any graveyard in New York was that England and see the names of the dead to realize what carnage they caused to preserve away of life that so few profited from.


:bigbow:

[ColdNoMore]

So as I read the OP, he seems to be saying he has no objection to removing statues which in full Confederate regalia, honor those whose fought against the United States and in support of a regime that in its Constitution and the statements of its leaders was formed to protect slavery.

If I were a grandchild of a person who fought for Germany in the 1930's I could well be proud of the courage with which my grandfather fought. If I were the son of a suicide bomber who came out of the Palestinian camps in Gaza I could well be proud of his courage in support of my people against what I honestly believed was intolerable oppression.

But I would not expect the people of France to erect a statue in Paris honoring the Nazi cause or to name a street or a military base in honor of Goering.

Somehow the Israelis have resisted the temptation to put up a nice statue of Arafat in Jerusalem. No one questions the courage or the sincerity of conviction of those who fought for the enemy.

You won't see any General Custer statues on Native lands. You don't see any monuments to General Sherman anywhere in the South. No statues, no street names, no college buildings with his name.

So don't tell me that statues and namings are simply a reflection of history. They are a reflection of support for the ideals fought for by those honored. The Confederacy was built on the promise of the continuation of Slavery. Period. Its constitution which so many think promoted "States Rights" in fact did not. It said that no state in the Confederacy could abolish slavery. It was the unassailable requirement for participation in the CSA.

Remember the words of George Wallace 100 years after the Civil War. Words which reflected his view of how the nation needed to be, how he saw the mixing of black and white people, how the South and much of the North still felt in the 1960's not the 1860's.

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

That is a concise summary of Wallace's platform. Just substitute the world slavery for segregation and you have the summary of the bedrock of the Confederacy. Is that a political system which we should be honoring in the USA? Is that something that just maybe a black person might find offensive? Those are not beautiful statues honoring our history. They are statues honoring those who fought to defend to the death the horrible horrible enslavement of humans.

Please read the "cornerstone" speech given by the VP of the CSA. He explains that the founders of the USA, and refers to Jefferson, all believed that slavery was wrong but were unable to find a way to eliminate it.



He admits that slavery was viewed as evil by the USA but, as he goes on to explain, they were wrong.



This is a concise and very clear statement that the CSA was formed to continue slavery. That the view of those who flew the stars and bars was that it was a moral truth that the negro was an inferior whose natural place was to be subordinate to the white race.

To say that a moral person, black, brown, or white should not find that "truth" extremely offensive astounds me. And to believe that anywhere there should be a statue celebrating people for whom that "truth" was a foundational piece of their belief is no different from honoring those who believed Jews were less than human.

Maybe even worse because the Nazis didn't fight for the right to kill Jews. They fought for German economic superiority and the sincerely held belief in Aryan superiority. We don't lionize the German soldier nor the German generals with statues.

Be proud of your southern heritage.

But if you are proud of the Confederacy and the deplorable bedrock upon which it was built ...

Absolutely NAILED IT! :boom:

:bigbow:

[graciegirl]

This is our family ancestor who won the Congressional Medal of Honor .

Remembering Medal of Honor recipient Charles Schorn - Gallipolis Daily Tribune (https://www.mydailytribune.com/news/52977/remembering-medal-of-honor-recipient-charles-schorn)

[kcrazorbackfan]

If they want to burn something go back to 70's and burn their Bras.
Then will have something to look forward too...:eek:

Uh-oh! Here in TV, that would be an image hard to erase from the mind.

[eyc234]

Born and raised in the South and a proud American. Have lived in four Southern States except for my time serving my Country (AL, GA, TX, FL) in my 74.5 years. My ancestors including my great, great grandfather fought in the Civil War for the South and two of his brothers died defending Atlanta. That is part of my family history and I will never give up my Southern heritage, my Southern accent or my love of Southern food and all the great places in the South. I fought with all races, colors in Vietnam and never really had a problem. They were all brothers to me. We can tear down all the statues we want, change all the names we want but I will never be ashamed of my family or being from the South. You can change "things or objects" but you cannot change the history. It is what it is! Blast away! :boom:


First thank you for your service to defend the freedoms of this great country. Will say that I fully agree with you as a lifelong southerner. Was taught from the day I can remember that we are part of the human race and nothing else. Treat all people as you would like to be treated. That is what I have done and have nothing to be ashamed of doing in my life. How about we eliminate all statues, street names, park names and anything to do with any living human being because we are all flawed and have issues. Stop putting normal human beings on pedestals, they all have flaws.

[GoodLife]

Uh-oh! Here in TV, that would be an image hard to erase from the mind.

They are real...and they are not spectacular :)

[manaboutown]

If they want to burn something go back to 70's and burn their Bras.
Then will have something to look forward too...:eek:

or down upon...

[TimeForChange]

Before his death Wallace denounced all of his prior leanings toward segregation and apologized. Perhaps you are not aware that at the start of the war only one in twenty Confederates owned any slaves. Perhaps you are not aware that according to the majority of historians the Confederates and Union soldiers interpreted the heritage of 1776 in different ways. Confederates professed to fight for liberty and independence from a too radical government. Union solders fought to preserve. At the start of the war my great, great. great grandfather had nine slaves. When the war started and three of his sons went off to fight and die he released all nine. I have the records. One slave named "Granville" elected to stay with my grandfather until he died. I have a poem that Granville wrote about life on that farm. It was a different time and different circumstances. Also many of the Northern officers came from slave owning family's. George Washington himself owned slaves but liberated all. Thomas Jefferson fathered a slave child.

[ColdNoMore]

SNIP...> Perhaps you are not aware that at the start of the war only one in twenty Confederates owned any slaves.<....SNIP



Myths About Slavery (click here) (http://www.history.com/news/5-myths-about-slavery)

5 Myths About Slavery

3. Myth #3: Only a small percentage of Southerners owned enslaved people.

Closely related to Myth #2, the idea that the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were men of modest means rather than large plantation owners is usually used to reinforce the contention that the South wouldn’t have gone to war to protect slavery.

The 1860 census shows that in the states that would soon secede from the Union, an average of more than 32 percent of white families owned enslaved people.

Some states had far more slave owners (46 percent of families in South Carolina, 49 percent in Mississippi) while some had far less (20 percent of families in Arkansas).

But as Jamelle Bouie and Rebecca Onion point out in Slate, the percentages don’t fully express the extent to which the antebellum South was a slave society, built on a foundation of slavery.

Many of those white families who couldn’t afford enslaved people aspired to, as a symbol of wealth and prosperity.

In addition, the essential ideology of white supremacy that served as a rationale for slavery, made it extremely difficult—and terrifying—for white Southerners to imagine life alongside a black majority population that was not in bondage.

In this way, many Confederates who did not enslave people went to war to protect not only slavery, but to preserve the foundation of the only way of life they knew.

[TimeForChange]

Myths About Slavery (click here) (http://www.history.com/news/5-myths-about-slavery)


Glad you know how to "google" and get one opinion. Read some books on how the war started and what caused it. It had just as much to do with the election of Lincoln, the rights of the States. The government we founded was a federation. That is a central government with smaller ones who have rights and control of their on. Otherwise we would be a unitarian government. (I think I have heard this recently when it came to the virus).

[Bay Kid]

Just rename everything that offends you. Replace every statue with a pacifier statue.

[Strongel]

History is the past and the past is dead, the future not yet. We only have now. Is what is occurring about statues, I think not. The pandemic put people on edge. An opportunity to start something and it worked.

[17362]

Today, instead of burning books that don't fit the narrative, they tear down statues and just quietly remove history books from public schools. Kind of reminiscent of Nazi Germany, the USSR, Cuba, etc. Now, street names and monuments also have to be removed or changed. Who's scared of the truth? If we erase the truth, does that mean that it did not happen? Oh well, if they wish to remove reminders of what happened, some will no longer have an excuse.....a crutch for failure.

I agree.
It started with book burning. Went on to union school boards deciding what is being taught to re- write history, only teach what they feel relevant, instead of whole truth and now it’s Ruining statues. Looks like they are winning the fight they started, while the sheep lay silent. Protests are now riots and terrorists.
Honestly, if “YOU are one of them” out there and you think this will change my thoughts- you are wrong.
You are not a human that I value if you do these harmful things including detaining people against their will for no reason except that a skin color is the reason.
Peaceful demonstrations and peaceful protests with no harm to things or beings- I will listen and hear you out then. You will only be heard from me this way.
“You” is meant in a general person way, as a verb, not a noun directly at this person(s) in the thread.

[anothersteve]

Glad you know how to "google" and get one opinion. Read some books on how the war started and what caused it. It had just as much to do with the election of Lincoln, the rights of the States. The government we founded was a federation. That is a central government with smaller ones who have rights and control of their on. Otherwise we would be a unitarian government. (I think I have heard this recently when it came to the virus).

I tried to explain this in a thread a couple of months back, and as always it falls on deaf ears to people that have tunnel vision. Slavery was not the main reason for the start of the Civil War.

Steve

[karostay]

Dust your great granddads jacket off..Just may need it

[blueash]

I tried to explain this in a thread a couple of months back, and as always it falls on deaf ears to people that have tunnel vision. Slavery was not the main reason for the start of the Civil War.

Steve

So Steve, should I take your opinion as to the cause of the Civil war filtered through your point of view as accurate, or should I believe the actual words of the people who led the succession and explained very clearly why the slave owning states acted? Your word or the words in the acts of the state legislatures explaining their actions? Your word or the word of the newspaper editorials and stories written at the time explaining why the election of Lincoln was a problem? Why the term "Black Republican" was so commonly used to describe Lincoln and his supporters?

Just for your education go to the Library of Congress website and use as your search terms abolition and Lincoln or slavery and Lincoln and your date range from late summer 1860 to Jan 1861 and read the newspapers being printed at the time. The only states right issue was the right of the states to own slaves and to enforce the fugitive slave act. There were some minor issues with tariffs but nothing that couldn't be worked out peacefully. It was only with the election of that "Black Republican" who would use the force of the federal government to interfere in the "peculiar institution" that triggered the war.

Do not fall for the revision of history pushed by the Southern apologists and the Klan. Read the original sources. Read the words of those who were the thought leaders, the political leaders and the military leaders of the South. You can post your thoughts about what caused the war as often as you'd like.

Search Results << Chronicling America << Library of Congress (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/pages/results/?dateFilterType=range&date1=09%2F01%2F1860&date2=1860&language=&ortext=&andtext=&phrasetext=&proxtext=lincoln+slavery&proxdistance=5&rows=20&searchType=advanced)

Search Results << Chronicling America << Library of Congress (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/pages/results/?dateFilterType=range&date1=09%2F01%2F1860&date2=1860&language=&ortext=&andtext=&phrasetext=&proxtext=lincoln+abolition&proxdistance=5&rows=20&searchType=advanced)

you want to read the proof that virulent racism wasn't just found in the South? Read this page from the NY Herald from early Nov 1860 (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030313/1860-11-06/ed-1/seq-4/#date1=09%2F01%2F1860&index=2&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Lincoln+negro&proxdistance=5&date2=1860&ortext=&proxtext=lincoln+negro&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=range&page=1) Full of what will happen if Lincoln wins.. Negroes will get to vote. Like Mohomadens they will be privileged to take into their arms the fair Caucasian women of NYC. That the Black Republicans want to abolish the Army and Navy so that the slaves can revolt, that white people will lose jobs to freed slaves.

It is a real eye opener. Not one comment on tariffs. Everything on the page pleading for a vote against Lincoln is about Negroes. Now tell me again about how slavery was not the issue of the day.

[Lindsyburnsy]

There are parts of our heritage that we can be proud of and other parts that we aren’t proud of. We don’t need statues celebrating portions of our heritage that are horrific reminders of someone else's heritage.

QUOTE=TimeForChange;1788457]Born and raised in the South and a proud American. Have lived in four Southern States except for my time serving my Country (AL, GA, TX, FL) in my 74.5 years. My ancestors including my great, great grandfather fought in the Civil War for the South and two of his brothers died defending Atlanta. That is part of my family history and I will never give up my Southern heritage, my Southern accent or my love of Southern food and all the great places in the South. I fought with all races, colors in Vietnam and never really had a problem. They were all brothers to me. We can tear down all the statues we want, change all the names we want but I will never be ashamed of my family or being from the South. You can change "things or objects" but you cannot change the history. It is what it is! Blast away! :boom:[/QUOTE]

[Lindsyburnsy]

Excellent response and I agree wholeheartedly!

[anothersteve]

So Steve, should I take your opinion as to the cause of the Civil war filtered through your point of view as accurate, or should I believe the actual words of the people who led the succession and explained very clearly why the slave owning states acted? Your word or the words in the acts of the state legislatures explaining their actions? Your word or the word of the newspaper editorials and stories written at the time explaining why the election of Lincoln was a problem? Why the term "Black Republican" was so commonly used to describe Lincoln and his supporters?

Just for your education go to the Library of Congress website and use as your search terms abolition and Lincoln or slavery and Lincoln and your date range from late summer 1860 to Jan 1861 and read the newspapers being printed at the time. The only states right issue was the right of the states to own slaves and to enforce the fugitive slave act. There were some minor issues with tariffs but nothing that couldn't be worked out peacefully. It was only with the election of that "Black Republican" who would use the force of the federal government to interfere in the "peculiar institution" that triggered the war.

Do not fall for the revision of history pushed by the Southern apologists and the Klan. Read the original sources. Read the words of those who were the thought leaders, the political leaders and the military leaders of the South. You can post your thoughts about what caused the war as often as you'd like.

Search Results << Chronicling America << Library of Congress (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/pages/results/?dateFilterType=range&date1=09%2F01%2F1860&date2=1860&language=&ortext=&andtext=&phrasetext=&proxtext=lincoln+slavery&proxdistance=5&rows=20&searchType=advanced)

Search Results << Chronicling America << Library of Congress (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/search/pages/results/?dateFilterType=range&date1=09%2F01%2F1860&date2=1860&language=&ortext=&andtext=&phrasetext=&proxtext=lincoln+abolition&proxdistance=5&rows=20&searchType=advanced)

you want to read the proof that virulent racism wasn't just found in the South? Read this page from the NY Herald from early Nov 1860 (https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030313/1860-11-06/ed-1/seq-4/#date1=09%2F01%2F1860&index=2&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Lincoln+negro&proxdistance=5&date2=1860&ortext=&proxtext=lincoln+negro&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=range&page=1) Full of what will happen if Lincoln wins.. Negroes will get to vote. Like Mohomadens they will be privileged to take into their arms the fair Caucasian women of NYC. That the Black Republicans want to abolish the Army and Navy so that the slaves can revolt, that white people will lose jobs to freed slaves.

It is a real eye opener. Not one comment on tariffs. Everything on the page pleading for a vote against Lincoln is about Negroes. Now tell me again about how slavery was not the issue of the day.

"What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the MORAL issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the ECONOMICS of slavery and POLITICAL CONTROL of that system that was CENTRAL to the conflict.

A key issue was STATE'S RIGHTS."

Causes Of The Civil War | History Detectives | PBS (https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/)

I never said slavery wasn't an issue, it started with States rights, and slavery was part of the rights southern states were fighting for. A technicality for sure, but gets overlooked and ignored.
I can post link after link that says the same as above. I think I did that when this subject came up months ago.

I'm not going to get into this again.

Steve

[John41]

The pyramids were built by slaves. Are they to be torn down too?

As for the North being more egalitarian, just look at the hatred that bussing children engendered.

[ColdNoMore]

Glad you know how to "google" and get one opinion. Read some books on how the war started and what caused it. It had just as much to do with the election of Lincoln, the rights of the States. The government we founded was a federation. That is a central government with smaller ones who have rights and control of their on. Otherwise we would be a unitarian government. (I think I have heard this recently when it came to the virus).

While I've known that for quite some time, I'm certainly not going to apologize for using every method available...to learn facts and expand my knowledge and education.

It's hard for me to personally even fathom, anyone being against or trying to denigrate others...for doing the same. :oops:

The "State's Rights" that the traitor's mostly cared about...was to own other human beings. :ohdear:


P.S. It's "hate" NOT "heritage"...that's at the core.

Just ask Bubba Wallace, the only black NASCAR driver, who found a noose in his garage...after NASCAR recently banned the confederate flag.

[JoMar]

And now thay have taken down the statues of Grant and Francis Scott Key because he owned slaves. Streets will be renamed, towns will be renamed. Universities will be renamed. Battlefields will be turned into parking lots and those that sacrificed their lives for what they believed in will be lost in vain. It's so easy for us to judge through what we learned yet none of us have a clue what it was like to live in that moment.

[ColdNoMore]

And now thay have taken down the statues of Grant and Francis Scott Key because he owned slaves. Streets will be renamed, towns will be renamed. Universities will be renamed. Battlefields will be turned into parking lots and those that sacrificed their lives for what they believed in will be lost in vain. It's so easy for us to judge through what we learned yet none of us have a clue what it was like to live in that moment.

So you must not agree with Germany's laws on not allowing any statues or monuments...for Hitler or the Nazi's?

[anothersteve]

Just ask Bubba Wallace, the only black NASCAR driver, who found a noose in his garage...after NASCAR recently banned the confederate flag.
[/SIZE]

Well since you bought up Bubba Wallace

YouTube (https://youtu.be/alWFEI_mB1M)

Steve

[ColdNoMore]

Well since you bought up Bubba Wallace

YouTube (https://youtu.be/alWFEI_mB1M)

Steve

One person on YouTube, who the racists will love, is saying that Wallace couldn't be be hated for his black skin...because he wasn't completely black?

You really think racists don't still believe in the..."one drop rule?" :oops:

Click Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule)

The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was historically prominent in the United States in the 20th century. It asserted that any person with even one ancestor of black ancestry ("one drop" of black blood)[1][2] is considered black (Negro or colored in historical terms).

This concept became codified into the law of some states in the early 20th century. It was associated with the principle of "invisible blackness" that developed after the long history of racial interaction in the South, which had included the hardening of slavery as a racial caste and later segregation. It is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status, regardless of proportion of ancestry in different groups

Do you have any idea, how many "good old boy fans/employees" are livid.... that NASCAR banned confederate flags this week?

Across the street at Talladega, the best selling items at vendors tents were...confederate flags.

Not to mention that cleaning crews, other team's crews, etc...have access to the garage area.

Quite frankly, it is constant attempts like these by certain folks on ANY incident of racism and where there hasn't been a single post in recognizing racism against blacks...that just proves how badly things still are and needs to be changed. :ohdear:

At least his fellow competitors and other crews...are willing to acknowledge it and support him. :ho:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hCZuQqcCzM

[anothersteve]

What you say holds absolutely no water with me.
Call me anything you want.
I'm good.
Steve

[ColdNoMore]

What you say holds absolutely no water with me.
Call me anything you want.
I'm good.
Steve

On THAT...I have no doubt. ;)

[graciegirl]

While I've known that for quite some time, I'm certainly not going to apologize for using every method available...to learn facts and expand my knowledge and education.

It's hard for me to personally even fathom, anyone being against or trying to denigrate others...for doing the same. :oops:

The "State's Rights" that the traitor's mostly cared about...was to own other human beings. :ohdear:


P.S. It's "hate" NOT "heritage"...that's at the core.

Just ask Bubba Wallace, the only black NASCAR driver, who found a noose in his garage...after NASCAR recently banned the confederate flag.


I don't know Bubba Wallace and I feel sorry that he found a noose. I hope someone who was not at all racist didn't put it there to further make a point. I am not black, I can't know how it is to live with the terrible injustices of being treated badly because of my race. I am white and I do understand that the poster known to us as "Time for Change" has all of the feelings and warmth and good connections that we all do with the place of our birth and early life. In Ohio, in School we sang a lot of folk music like "Dixie" and never, ever connected any of it to slavery. When we paint with a broad brush, no matter what it is, we get paint on things we really didn't want to paint.

Anyone can see that some posters are way past being mad. Anyone can see that there are a lot of people who have never harmed another soul who are being chastised for something that isn't their fault. It is so wrong to group people together and think they are all flawed. Two wrongs don't make a right. You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I feel a reverse prejudice against all country people from city people here. Hating is wrong no matter who does it. It hurts all people.

[graciegirl]

Are You Being Passive Aggressive? | The Healthy (https://www.thehealthy.com/mental-health/passive-aggressive-behavior/)

[ColdNoMore]

Are You Being Passive Aggressive? | The Healthy (https://www.thehealthy.com/mental-health/passive-aggressive-behavior/)

Great link.

Education and increasing knowledge is always...a good thing. :thumbup:

[Bay Kid]

Staged. The Wallace troubles are more than likely staged. BLM is a war against whites and Wallace is right there with them.

[TimeForChange]

So it's been ok for 100's of years but not now because of a couple of very wrongful deaths (as a result of not obeying a police officer). I guess reparation for the third generation descendant's of slaves is next. Ancestry.com will love that.

[TimeForChange]

I don't know Bubba Wallace and I feel sorry that he found a noose. I hope someone who was not at all racist didn't put it there to further make a point. I am not black, I can't know how it is to live with the terrible injustices of being treated badly because of my race. I am white and I do understand that the poster known to us as "Time for Change" has all of the feelings and warmth and good connections that we all do with the place of our birth and early life. In Ohio, in School we sang a lot of folk music like "Dixie" and never, ever connected any of it to slavery. When we paint with a broad brush, no matter what it is, we get paint on things we really didn't want to paint.

Anyone can see that some posters are way past being mad. Anyone can see that there are a lot of people who have never harmed another soul who are being chastised for something that isn't their fault. It is so wrong to group people together and think they are all flawed. Two wrongs don't make a right. You shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I feel a reverse prejudice against all country people from city people here. Hating is wrong no matter who does it. It hurts all people.

Today I almost feel like 1968 again when I was in Vietnam when both Bobby Kennedy and MLK were killed. My closet friends (other troops) were black. You cannot imagine the hurt I felt for them being half way around the world fighting in a war that hardly anyone but Pres Johnson supported. Some just would not speak to me anymore. Some got very upset and I was afraid of what they would do (fragging). We are way past that level of feeling today. The pure hate across this Country is at a peak. I'm afraid of what may happen and if will ever end without losing (don't want to say).

[JoMar]

So you must not agree with Germany's laws on not allowing any statues or monuments...for Hitler or the Nazi's?

There is a tour of Germany that takes you to all the sites of the Nazi's and Hitlers locations. Last year I went to Dachau and Eagles Nest. Both tell the story and have photo's of Hitler and others of the time. There are railroad sidings where the trains departed to the camps in various locations in Europe. Eagles Nest is now both histoical and a restaurant. When you stood on the sundeck the photo's showed where hitler stood and Eva Braun sat. The Fuhrerbunker now has tourist signs with photo's and diagrams. Hitlers beer hall putsch tours are always full.Germany is reclaiming their history. We had conversations with the next generation and there is a thirst for knowledge of that period among those we talked to. Statues were destroyed because of the fear that they would be used to further the Nazi movement and start a resurgence. The Germans did not remove statues, the Russians did.

[ColdNoMore]

As I said.

Poke Here (http://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/16/16152088/nazi-swastikas-germany-charlottesville)

there are no statues of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Goebbels gracing public squares in Berlin, let alone Nazi flags or other Nazi art. Public Nazi imagery was long ago destroyed, and swastikas were long since knocked off the walls of Nazi-era buildings.

The only Nazi imagery you’ll find is in exhibits devoted to understanding the horror of the period.

Which I have no problem with doing here.

Put them in central location so that school children can learn...from the despicable parts of our nation's past. :ho:

[JoMar]

As I said.

Poke Here (http://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/16/16152088/nazi-swastikas-germany-charlottesville)



Which I have no problem with doing here.

Put them in central location so that school children can learn...from the despicable parts of our nation's past. :ho:

Not true, Germany has them all over the cities, as we do in the battlefields and locations where battles happened, where those that were involved lived and at the cemetaries where the lost are buried. Japan has left buildings we damaged stand as a monument to their brave soldiers. Hitlers birthplace in Austria still stands and is identified. The suggestion of moving the statures to a central location so kids could go and learn is a great thought but not practical. Schools don't teach history (field trips were part of my schooling), parents don't teach history. Go to any Civil War battlefield or museum and count heads, you might be surprised how many aren't there. We will eliminate any knowledge of the bad parts of our story, and for those that think that's a good thing, congratulations, your revision will happen.

[ColdNoMore]

Not true, Germany has them all over the cities, as we do in the battlefields and locations where battles happened, where those that were involved lived and at the cemetaries where the lost are buried. Japan has left buildings we damaged stand as a monument to their brave soldiers. Hitlers birthplace in Austria still stands and is identified. The suggestion of moving the statures to a central location so kids could go and learn is a great thought but not practical. Schools don't teach history (field trips were part of my schooling), parents don't teach history. Go to any Civil War battlefield or museum and count heads, you might be surprised how many aren't there. We will eliminate any knowledge of the bad parts of our story, and for those that think that's a good thing, congratulations, your revision will happen.

I (as many others) don't see it as "trying to eliminate" the disgusting part of our past, at all.

It's simply a matter of not glorifying it...in prominent public places.

Now is a good time to revisit, when and why the majority...of those statues/monuments were put up.


Jim Crow Support - Intimidation of Blacks (click here) (http://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy)

But the argument that the Confederate flag and other displays represent “heritage, not hate” ignores the near-universal heritage of African Americans whose ancestors were enslaved by the millions in the South.

It trivializes their pain, their history and their concerns about racism — whether it’s the racism of the past or that of today.

And it conceals the true history of the Confederate States of America and the seven decades of Jim Crow segregation and oppression that followed the Reconstruction era.

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/styles/splc_large_rectangle/public/com_whose-heritage_timeline_breaker2019.jpg?itok=2k6qaTAK&timestamp=1549050831

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Said it before in different words:

If your understanding of history relies on a statue or a series of statues, then you need to just stop talking about history at all.

Removing statues is NOT erasing history. It's removing statues. History is still being taught. The books are still in print. The original documents are still in the museums and archives where they were put, precisely so that actual documentation of our history could be preserved for future use/consideration.

Stop with the nonsense about removing statues being an act of removing our history. It just isn't. Most people don't even know who sculpted any of those statues. The artists are part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know what year any of those statues were erected. The year is part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know the actual official names of most of the statues. The names are part of the STATUES' histories.

These statues are, for all intents and purposes, not historical at all. They represent prominent personalities who existed at one point or another in our history, but the statues themselves have no importance of their own.

[graciegirl]

Said it before in different words:

If your understanding of history relies on a statue or a series of statues, then you need to just stop talking about history at all.

Removing statues is NOT erasing history. It's removing statues. History is still being taught. The books are still in print. The original documents are still in the museums and archives where they were put, precisely so that actual documentation of our history could be preserved for future use/consideration.

Stop with the nonsense about removing statues being an act of removing our history. It just isn't. Most people don't even know who sculpted any of those statues. The artists are part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know what year any of those statues were erected. The year is part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know the actual official names of most of the statues. The names are part of the STATUES' histories.

These statues are, for all intents and purposes, not historical at all. They represent prominent personalities who existed at one point or another in our history, but the statues themselves have no importance of their own.

They were strong and fine looking men on elegant horses that someone once loved. Someone worked hard to make a beautiful statue of them. They were someone's father and someone's son and someone's brother..just like the men who are being touted as hero's who were incarcerated many times and didn't stop when they were told to stop and grabbed an officer of the laws tazer and shot at him with it.

People who look for beauty find it in all kinds of places.

If it is wrong to look down on one group of people who have done wrong things, than it is also wrong to look down on another group of people who have done wrong things. It is the same issue. Who has the high ground here?

I have plenty of farmers and hillbillies and rednecks and doctors and lawyers and statesmen in my family and aquaintances. None of them kept slaves or were put in jail for anything. My point is this. No matter how you look at it, there are people who do try their very best to do the right thing, just about every day in their lives. I bet no posters on this site knew anyone who kept slaves and very few know/knew anyone who was put in jail.

[roscoguy]

"What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the MORAL issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the ECONOMICS of slavery and POLITICAL CONTROL of that system that was CENTRAL to the conflict.

A key issue was STATE'S RIGHTS."

Causes Of The Civil War | History Detectives | PBS (https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/)

I never said slavery wasn't an issue, it started with States rights, and slavery was part of the rights southern states were fighting for. A technicality for sure, but gets overlooked and ignored.
I can post link after link that says the same as above. I think I did that when this subject came up months ago.

I'm not going to get into this again.

Steve

While you were picking & choosing portions of that PBS page to quote (and adding YOUR OWN emphasis), you seem to have skipped this: "The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished." (emphasis added :icon_wink:)
I'm quite sure you can find plenty of links to people that share your opinion; once again I'll post a link to the actual declarations of cessation from the 5 original Confederate states: The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States | American Battlefield Trust (https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states) Read it in their own words, not the opinions on anyone else. If you don't want to read it all, I can tell you that 'slave' in various forms appears 83 times, 'right' appears 37 times and largely as a right to keep slaves.

[ColdNoMore]

*Breaking News*

The FBI just released a statement, that in essence stated...Bubba was NOT the target of a hate crime.

Which, as I said in the other thread...is actually a relief. :thumbup:

And I will give it to Goodlife's reports, that it looks like it WAS a door pull rope (that was made to look like a noose sometime last fall and prior to Wallace being assigned the stall at this race)...that was just misconstrued by a crew member.

Good news...all the way around. :cool:

[GoodLife]

*Breaking News*

The FBI just released a statement, that in essence stated...Bubba was NOT the target of a hate crime.

Which, as I said in the other thread...is actually a relief. :thumbup:

And I will give it to Goodlife's reports, that it looks like it WAS a door pull rope (that was made to look like a noose sometime last fall and prior to Wallace being assigned the stall at this race)...that was just misconstrued by a crew member.

Good news...all the way around. :cool:

All the rope door pulls at Talladega have "nooses" on them. They weren't made to look like nooses, they were made to make it easier to grab the rope and pull down the door.

[ONTAP15]

Welcome home, Brother.....I'm a NYC boy who also served in Vietnam and I think it sucks y'all are getting hounded over the Confederate flag..

[TexaninVA]

Said it before in different words:

If your understanding of history relies on a statue or a series of statues, then you need to just stop talking about history at all.

Removing statues is NOT erasing history. It's removing statues. History is still being taught. The books are still in print. The original documents are still in the museums and archives where they were put, precisely so that actual documentation of our history could be preserved for future use/consideration.

Stop with the nonsense about removing statues being an act of removing our history. It just isn't. Most people don't even know who sculpted any of those statues. The artists are part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know what year any of those statues were erected. The year is part of the STATUE's history. Most people don't know the actual official names of most of the statues. The names are part of the STATUES' histories.

These statues are, for all intents and purposes, not historical at all. They represent prominent personalities who existed at one point or another in our history, but the statues themselves have no importance of their own.

So, by that reasoning, are we to conclude you'd have no problem demolishing the Jefferson Memorial and blowing up the Washington Monument? Just asking ...

[TexaninVA]

All the rope door pulls at Talladega have "nooses" on them. They weren't made to look like nooses, they were made to make it easier to grab the rope and pull down the door.

NASCAR looks ridiculous ... talk about an emotional overreaction and adding fuel to the already blazing racial fire. They owe all of us an apology

[ColdNoMore]

All the rope door pulls at Talladega have "nooses" on them. They weren't made to look like nooses, they were made to make it easier to grab the rope and pull down the door.

Proof that they are actually..."nooses?"

You obviously must not have ever been in Scouting, or you would know how many ways there are...to make a "loop" at the end of a rope. :oops:

And no, I never made it to Eagle, because a driver's license, a job that paid for a '63 Fairlane and girls...was waaaaay more fun. :D

[GoodLife]

Proof that they are actually..."nooses?"

You obviously must not have ever been in Scouting, or you would know how many ways there are...to make a "loop" at the end of a rope. :oops:

And no, I never made it to Eagle, because a driver's license, a job that paid for a '63 Fairlane and girls...was waaaaay more fun. :D

LOL I didn't call it a noose, Nascar and Bubba did, that's why I used quotes

Let me help

What do quotes around a word mean?

Quotation marks around single words can occasionally be used for emphasis, but only when quoting a word or term someone else used. Usually, this implies that the author doesn’t agree with the use of the term.

[ColdNoMore]

LOL I didn't call it a noose, Nascar and Bubba did, that's why I used quotes smartypants.:1rotfl:

Actually, you DID call it...a "noose." :oops:

And given the number of different ways to make a loop at the end of a rope, an actual "noose" is very likely the only reason...a concern was made in the first place. :ohdear:


Regardless, I'm really glad it was a false alarm...as I'm a race (any racing) fan. :thumbup:

[ColdNoMore]

FBI said..."fashioned like a noose."

Which is the first hint, that there are lots of ways...to "fashion a loop." :wave:

[GoodLife]

FBI said..."fashioned like a noose."

Which is the first hint, that there are lots of ways...to "fashion a loop." :wave:

And the article you linked in your day of reckoning thread?

Sunday night marked a tipping point for NASCAR. Sunday night, the series disclosed that someone had left a noose — the symbol of this nation’s original sin, the undeniable message of intimidation, a sign so cruel and cutting it defies imagination — in the garage stall of Bubba Wallace, the Cup series’ lone Black driver.

OOPS :1rotfl:

[ColdNoMore]

A noose IS..."this nation’s original sin, the undeniable message of intimidation, a sign so cruel and cutting it defies imagination." :ohdear:

Thank goodness it was not intended to be...AT Bubba. :thumbup:

[GoodLife]

A noose IS..."this nation’s original sin, the undeniable message of intimidation, a sign so cruel and cutting it defies imagination." :ohdear:

Thank goodness it was not intended to be...AT Bubba. :thumbup:

It wasn't intended for anyone, it was a freakin rope pull on a garage door.

Thank god it didn't start more riots. Wait... they are still rioting anyway.

[ColdNoMore]

It wasn't intended for anyone, it was a freakin rope pull on a garage door.

Thank god it didn't start more riots. Wait... they are still rioting anyway.

"They?"

Thank you. :wave:

[GoodLife]

"They?"

Thank you. :wave:

Yes they. Is that racist now?

they
[T͟Hā]

PRONOUN
used to refer to two or more people or things

people in general.

[anothersteve]

Yes they. Is that racist now?

they
[T͟Hā]

PRONOUN
used to refer to two or more people or things

people in general.

Yes along with their, them, those, thugs, and a few others I can't remember, there are quite a few..................
I know 'cause I read that in another thread.
Steve

[GoodLife]

Yes along with their, them, those, thugs, and a few others I can't remember, there are quite a few..................
I know 'cause I read that in another thread.
Steve

I knew that thugs is verboten, didn't get the memo on "they"

How do we refer to groups of people now?

[anothersteve]

I knew that thugs is verboten, didn't get the memo on "they"

How do we refer to groups of people now?

That's a good question. I guess it depends on how, where, when and why that group is congregating.

Steve

Edited to say I'm sorry I said "that group", some might get it misconstrued................I should've said "any particular group" :ohdear:

Steve

[GoodLife]

TEAR DOWN PRESIDENT LINCOLN STATUE IN WASHINGTON DC

Hundreds of (mostly white) protesters have shown up.

Why? Because this statue honoring the signing of the emancipation proclamation is “racist.”

Where did the statue come from? It was paid for and erected by freed slaves.

Noted white supremacist Frederick Douglass was the keynote speaker at the dedication of this statue. :shocked: Bold is sarcasm

Douglass speech here

Oration in Memory of Abraham Lincoln - Teaching American History (https://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/oration-in-memory-of-abraham-lincoln/)

[anothersteve]

There's no cure for cancer

Steve

[fdpaq0580]

I knew that thugs is verboten, didn't get the memo on "they"

How do we refer to groups of people now?

I agree with your sentiment. I sometimes just have shake my head in wonder at how words that have there origin in some other language and have been adopted to describe actions or feeling or some other generic group or place or ... whatever, is suddenly decided by someone to be a racial, gender, etc, epithet.
What I learned many years ago was that the term thug, Sanskrit/Indian, refers to a member of the thuggee, a rather brutal and organized group of thieves and murderers. The term was used later to describe the brutal behavior of individuals or gangsters, totally irrespective of race or culture.
So, who is it that gets to randomly decide which words constitute a racial or cultural epithet? Now we are picking on those, they, them? Some see beauty when others see ugliness. Some see light when others can only see darkness. Some see joy while others see sorrow. Glass is half full or glass is half empty. Where did this silliness come from? Did some antisocial mastermind decide that labelling random common words as racist is a tool to intimidate others and force them to adopt new meanings, just because you have nothing constructive to bring to the table. Is it lack of education or feelings of some kind inadequacy causing the misinterpretation, misreading between the lines that is causing this.
Once we are convinced that all words are now verboten, then we will no longer be able to have any dialogue at all.
Remember "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".
We need to stop nit-pickin, whining, and re-writing the dictionary so we use it as a weapon.
GOOD NIGHT!