Do you think that it is safe for Schools to reopen?

[graciegirl]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

[LuvtheVillages]

I think we have to find a way to make it safe. Kids need classroom learning. Too many are being left behind. We have to figure it out.

It might mean half the kids attend in the morning and half in the afternoon, for social distancing. It might mean condensing the curriculum. It might mean omitting gym and chorus. It might mean a mixture of classroom and online learning. It might mean more homework.

I don't know the answer, but we have to do something.

[JimJohnson]

Life threatening right now. How could anyone send their child into a crowded room under these circumstances?
This would be child abuse and WILL cause some children to die. One child dying is too many. Stop this insanity and listen to the medical and scientific experts. Wait for a vaccine before endangering the lives of children.

[GoodLife]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

Yes it is safe, many European countries have already done so without problems. Studies show children tend to not infect adults much at all, it is adults who infect children

CDC death totals per age group. As this chart shows, people under 24 years old are much more likely to die of other causes than from covid 19. Like 1000 times more likely. Under 24 deaths from Covid = 171 Under 24 deaths from other causes = 22,214

Let's keep everything shut down forever because someone might die. :22yikes:

85146

[manaboutown]

Sweden kept its schools open for children 16 and under. Keeping schools open, despite coronavirus, worked in Sweden - Axios (https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-schools-sweden-denmark-5ff88c81-67e3-4c33-8b74-fe57b9555827.html)

[blueash]

That depends on your definition of safe. If schools are reopened children, teachers, staff, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, custodians, PTA members, coaches, etc. are all placed at increased risk. Some are going to die of COVID. Some who do not die are going to become critically ill with lifelong disability from COVID.

Some children are going to be minimally ill but are going to carry the virus home to grandma and she is going to die. Despite more than one person's continuing attempts to minimize the seriousness of this disease, children do catch it and do spread it. They catch it less often, become less ill, and spread it less frequently. But they do all of those things.

Thus this becomes a question of risk vs reward. Are you going to fire all the 50 year old teachers who refuse to work? Are you going to offer comprehensive alternatives for the family where Dad has obesity and diabetes? What do you do if a child tests positive? Do you just send him home? Do you send all his classmates home for 14 days? Do you close the whole school for every sick child? Can a child come if a parent is Covid positive?

I'd love to see schools open. I cannot imagine how families will otherwise work and provide child care. I am glad I am not the one making the decisions. But I hope that the decision is science based not ignoring the advice of the CDC and AAP. And keep in mind that as schools open the data is going to be changing. There is some early suggestion that smaller class size may be a factor in avoiding spread. (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/03/868507524/israel-orders-schools-to-close-when-covid-19-cases-are-discovered)

Data from other countries where there is not an ongoing surge in cases may not translate to here. We are now over a half year into this pandemic. There is still no effective cure nor preventative. There is only risk reduction with social distancing [impossible in a school], mask wearing [extremely unrealistic with children], and handwashing may or may not play a role but it doesn't happen with kids.

[saratogaman]

I think we have to find a way to make it safe. Kids need classroom learning. Too many are being left behind. We have to figure it out.

It might mean half the kids attend in the morning and half in the afternoon, for social distancing. It might mean condensing the curriculum. It might mean omitting gym and chorus. It might mean a mixture of classroom and online learning. It might mean more homework.

I don't know the answer, but we have to do something.

Leave it up to parents, educators and health officials --NOT to politicians who care only about reelection!

[Gulfcoast]

Frontline workers have been going into work from the get go. Just think about all of the workers in retail, food service, police, EMTs, healthcare, transportation, etc that are already out there in the trenches.

I think that it's fine for the vast majority of kids (and school employees) to go back to work. Distance learning will be available for those who prefer it just as it was available this past spring.

If kids can go to the mall, the beach, pool parties with friends, church camps, summer jobs, team sports etc they can go back to school.

[Stu from NYC]

Great question that we are not qualified to answer.

Will talk to our kids about this and what they would do with our grandkids of schools do reopen

[davem4616]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

Wow, talk about a $50K question...

It has to be tough being a parent with school age kids right now...you aren't sure if you should be buying back to school things, or just more wine

I spoke with an elementary principal yesterday...all 12 of the custodians at her school are currently out for 14 days due to one of them testing positive earlier in the week for the virus....although the custodians have been working for awhile, there's no way the building will be ready to open for the deadline.

At least one teacher is in quarantine as are a couple of aids

Do I personally think it's safe...to a degree yes, but this is not a yes or no question. It's a no for anyone (young of old) with a health issue.

It's critical that kids education continue...and they need to get out of the house and socialize with their friends...

IMHO there are too many open questions for those of us that are "beyond arm's length" to make an informed decision on this. I do believe that the adults will be the ones that will be most at risk though, as kids bounce back quickly.

So what happens when a significant number of teachers and aids in a school test positive? Or there's an outbreak among the bus drivers or the custodians? or the cafeteria staff?
Is there a contingency plan...most likely not.

If a teacher tests positive...does the whole class go into quarantine? If the teachers all share a lunch/break room, how many peers would have to go into quarantine?

If someone refuses to wear a mask because this is a free country...what's the school's position?

Are teachers, staff and students going to be screened upon entry daily, will they all wear masks? and will those that show signs of the virus be sent home? (or quarantined somewhere in the school until a parent can come for them)

What's the deal with meal programs? Many families depend upon the school meal program...will the school cafeteria practice social distancing?

Are the classrooms large enough so that the desks can be arranged in a social distancing pattern...or do class sizes need to be smaller?

Will every school have someone empowered to make the right call on all of the above?

We can't continue to 'give up' teaching the arts, history, geography, shop, home economics and gym...these are important too

It's time that a 'new model' for learning is introduced at all levels in the system....a blend of f2f and virtual most likely needs to be embraced. There should be enough folks in the higher ranks in the educational hierarchy to focus on designing a new approach for learning. Universities have done it...no reason that public school systems can't.

The younger generation has grown up with technology...it's the old adults that will have the most challenge making any shift from the traditional f2f format

[karostay]

Lack of proper education far more destructive than a virus.
Our youth are poorly educated as it is..Falling further behind will have much longer consequences that what they are facing now

[blueash]

Sweden kept its schools open for children 16 and under. Keeping schools open, despite coronavirus, worked in Sweden - Axios (https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-schools-sweden-denmark-5ff88c81-67e3-4c33-8b74-fe57b9555827.html)

I went to the link you provided. It discusses the situation in Sweden and Denmark. Neither country had the community spread we have here. Of interest in your link for how Denmark opened
Denmark has placed elementary school students in pods of around 12. They eat lunch together, play together at recess, and are taught by one teacher in one socially distanced classroom.

Spacing restrictions often mean staggering arrival times or even the days on which students attend.

I don't think that is what is being proposed here. For a more comprehensive discussion of what is known and more importantly what is not known. HERE (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks)

How many new cases were identified in Germany, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark yesterday? Can you really use their experience with safety of reopening schools as a guideline to the situation in the US where we are far and away the worst petri dish in the world.

[Two Bills]

In Austria where one of my grandsons lives, they halved the class sizes, and kids go to school three days one week, and twice (two times) the following week. Home work for days not attending.
In UK where my other grandson schools, they are (allegedly) making class years into 'bubbles' where they only mix with the same kids all the time, and stay in that group all day.
Seems a reasonable solution for a school of 1200 pupils, but the bubble bursts when they go to and from school, as all ages and 'bubbles' mix on the busses!
As initiatives, and directives seem to change hourly, and on a whim here in UK, that system could be out the window soon.
Kids are in the least vulnerable group, so I don't see it as a dangerous move for them.
The only problem I could see is if they bring the bug home without them feeling ill.
We shall see.
Most Parents will be happy with any system!!

[billethkid]

They don't have community spread like we do because they do not have the beaches crowd, the protesters shoulder to shoulder, the amount of foreign travel coming and going and they adhere more readily to masking.

There is no big mystery to why the USA has the spiking that it does.

The risk of children getting the virus? Throw a dart to get the percent you like.
The risk of the children dying from having the virus? Extremely low.

To avoid future consequences the kids need to get back to school....and most educators and administrators have what they feel are safe plans to do so.

The goal is to get them back to school. Adjust by exception where issues/incidences occur.

[Gulfcoast]

I'm sure you all are going to hate me for saying this, but I think that they should just go back and resume school as normal. This virus is less dangerous to this age group than the flu is. Symptomatic kids should stay home and if they come to school sick they should be immediately sent home and possibly put on distance learning for the rest of the year.

Beyond that, let kids be kids. Enough with all of the rules and regs that teachers will never be able to enforce. If it all sounds too risky - online school is a perfectly good and 100% safe option.

[GoodLife]

Some children are going to be minimally ill but are going to carry the virus home to grandma and she is going to die. Despite more than one person's continuing attempts to minimize the seriousness of this disease, children do catch it and do spread it. They catch it less often, become less ill, and spread it less frequently. But they do all of those things.

So posting a CDC table listing deaths from covid 19 and other causes by age group is minimizing the seriousness of the disease? The facts are quite clear, people 24 and under represent 31% of the USA population and 171 of them have died from Covid 19. More people in that age group die of the flu every year. According to CDC 185 children under 18 have died from the flu this year. Compared to covid 19, more children catch the flu, are hospitalized by the flu, die from the flu, and most important, children are super spreaders of the flu. Opposite is true for Covid 19 in that age group.

So maybe schools should just stay closed forever because the flu comes every year. Kids die from lots of things, statistically their deaths from covid 19 is almost zero.

Data from other countries where there is not an ongoing surge in cases may not translate to here. We are now over a half year into this pandemic. There is still no effective cure nor preventative. There is only risk reduction with social distancing [impossible in a school], mask wearing [extremely unrealistic with children], and handwashing may or may not play a role but it doesn't happen with kids.


Why wouldn't it translate? Does the virus act differently with kids in Europe than here? Last time I checked we have same virus as them. There's no cure or preventive in Europe either. Social distancing impossible in a school? Sweden just spread the desks out, not using masks, kids are trained to wash hands frequently. No problems!

Coronavirus study finds schools are safe for teachers and students

A study of the NSW school students and staff who have tested positive for COVID-19 found an "extraordinarily" low rate of transmission in schools.

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers," the chief investigator Professor Kristine Macartney told The Sun-Herald.

"We have seen an extraordinarily low rate of transmissions in schools," Prof Macartney said.

Coronavirus study finds schools are safe for teachers and students | SBS News (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/coronavirus-study-finds-schools-are-safe-for-teachers-and-students)

[blueash]

Some children are going to be minimally ill but are going to carry the virus home to grandma and she is going to die. Despite more than one person's continuing attempts to minimize the seriousness of this disease, children do catch it and do spread it. They catch it less often, become less ill, and spread it less frequently. But they do all of those things.

So posting a CDC table listing deaths from covid 19 and other causes by age group is minimizing the seriousness of the disease? The facts are quite clear, people 24 and under represent 31% of the USA population and 171 of them have died from Covid 19. More people in that age group die of the flu every year. According to CDC 185 children under 18 have died from the flu this year. Compared to covid 19, more children catch the flu, are hospitalized by the flu, die from the flu, and most important, children are super spreaders of the flu. Opposite is true for Covid 19 in that age group.

So maybe schools should just stay closed forever because the flu comes every year. Kids die from lots of things, statistically their deaths from covid 19 is almost zero.

Data from other countries where there is not an ongoing surge in cases may not translate to here. We are now over a half year into this pandemic. There is still no effective cure nor preventative. There is only risk reduction with social distancing [impossible in a school], mask wearing [extremely unrealistic with children], and handwashing may or may not play a role but it doesn't happen with kids.


Why wouldn't it translate? Does the virus act differently with kids in Europe than here? Last time I checked we have same virus as them. There's no cure or preventive in Europe either. Social distancing impossible in a school? Sweden just spread the desks out, not using masks, kids are trained to wash hands frequently. No problems!

Coronavirus study finds schools are safe for teachers and students

A study of the NSW school students and staff who have tested positive for COVID-19 found an "extraordinarily" low rate of transmission in schools.

"Our investigation found no evidence of children infecting teachers," the chief investigator Professor Kristine Macartney told The Sun-Herald.

"We have seen an extraordinarily low rate of transmissions in schools," Prof Macartney said.

Coronavirus study finds schools are safe for teachers and students | SBS News (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/coronavirus-study-finds-schools-are-safe-for-teachers-and-students)

You posted a link from april on the school experience in Australia, a country that has had a tiny fraction of the disease compared to here. Somehow you missed all the newer stories about Australian schools being closed down due to Covid cases.

Virus sets off new school closures in Australia (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/asia-today-virus-sets-off-school-closures-australia-71396509)
After 181 cases in a city of 5 million, what did they do in Australia (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53335745) just this week?
Schools will largely return to distance learning and restaurants will, once again, only be permitted to serve takeaway food

Apparently the government of Australia does not believe in keeping the schools open with an incidence of COVID of 181/5,000,000 The population of Florida is about 20 million so that would mean shutting down with 725 positive tests in the state. Do you really want to tell me about how we should be doing what Australia is doing? The study you linked looked at 9 children. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that tiny bit of data.

The point you seem unable to grasp is that the pandemic here is not matched by the experience in any other country except Brazil which is run by a maniac IMO. You want to talk percentages? We are under 5% of the world population but have 25% of the cases and 25% of the world deaths. We are not Europe, they have it under control. We are not Australia, they have it under control. We are not China or South Korea they have it under control. We are Brazil. Except Brazil has its schools closed (https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/04/brazil-government-and-institution-measures-in-response-to-covid.html)in the major cities.

A responsible planning consideration for opening schools (https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/) has been issued by the AAP.

[graciegirl]

You posted a link from april on the school experience in Australia, a country that has had a tiny fraction of the disease compared to here. Somehow you missed all the newer stories about Australian schools being closed down due to Covid cases.

Virus sets off new school closures in Australia (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/asia-today-virus-sets-off-school-closures-australia-71396509)
After 181 cases in a city of 5 million, what did they do in Australia (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53335745) just this week?




Apparently the government of Australia does not believe in keeping the schools open with an incidence of COVID of 181/5,000,000 The population of Florida is about 20 million so that would mean shutting down with 725 positive tests in the state. Do you really want to tell me about how we should be doing what Australia is doing? The study you linked looked at 9 children. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that tiny bit of data.

The point you seem unable to grasp is that the pandemic here is not matched by the experience in any other country except Brazil which is run by a maniac IMO. You want to talk percentages? We are under 5% of the world population but have 25% of the cases and 25% of the world deaths. We are not Europe, they have it under control. We are not Australia, they have it under control. We are not China or South Korea they have it under control. We are Brazil. Except Brazil has its schools closed (https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/04/brazil-government-and-institution-measures-in-response-to-covid.html)in the major cities.

A responsible planning consideration for opening schools (https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/) has been issued by the AAP.





Blueash is a very well qualified pediatrician. He also has a reputation in Cincinnati of truly caring about children and families. He is extremely smart and very well educated. I am prejudiced when he writes about health and science. I am very prone to believe every word he says on these subjects.

[Taltarzac725]

Opening schools should be up to the local communities after extensive discussion between local public health officials, PTA representatives, teachers, bus drivers, librarians, school employees, students, etc.

The Villages' situation will be quite different say from that in NYC, on Cape Cod, a suburb in the Twin Cities, Las Vegas, etc.

[manaboutown]

For some time I have followed and compared the deaths in Sweden, now 5,500 deaths among @10.4M and Switzerland, now 1,966 deaths among @8.3M. As we all know Switzerland is an international financial center and has people come to ski in the winter. People fly there from around the world. Sweden is much less visited; many people live on islands and in small rural enclaves. It seems to me Sweden has paid a price for remaining open although from what I have read many of the deaths have occurred among the elderly and those whose health is compromised with underlying conditions.

In the end the decisions regarding opening schools as well of the rest of the economy need to be made. It will be a tough call based on incomplete information as so much is unknown about the virus.

[GoodLife]

It discusses the situation in Sweden and Denmark. Neither country had the community spread we have here.

I haven't studied Denmark much, but I do know quite a bit about Sweden.

Recall that Sweden never locked down, used masks, or closed their schools for 16 and under ages.

Sweden currently has 7300 confirmed cases per million, USA is 9772 per million

However, USA has tested double the amount per capita that Sweden has. So they could easily have as many cases per capita as USA, lots of asymptomatics are hidden.

The facts are, Sweden never closed their kindergartens, primary or secondary schools
and have had exactly 9 deaths from covid in age groups under 30 years old. Zero from under 19

Can you really use their experience with safety of reopening schools as a guideline to the situation in the US where we are far and away the worst petri dish in the world

Why yes, we can. Remember, Sweden's schools (16 and under) stayed open and never closed. Only 9 deaths under 30 reported in Sweden. Zero under 19

85153

Looky there! Sweden closely matched the "petri dish" of USA in terms of cases per million for the last 3 months, and only recently began to come down. Quoting total cases for one day for a country of 330,000,000 vs one with 10,000,000 is not very scientific.

So in review, Sweden's schools stayed open during several months when their cases per million was closely matching that of USA, but they only had 9 deaths under 30. Zero under 19

Those are the facts.

[jebartle]

Every parent will have to draw their own conclusions, for me, home school. Many, this is not an option, work, eat, pay bills.

[GoodLife]

You posted a link from april on the school experience in Australia, a country that has had a tiny fraction of the disease compared to here. Somehow you missed all the newer stories about Australian schools being closed down due to Covid cases.

Virus sets off new school closures in Australia (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/asia-today-virus-sets-off-school-closures-australia-71396509)
After 181 cases in a city of 5 million, what did they do in Australia (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53335745) just this week?

Apparently the government of Australia does not believe in keeping the schools open with an incidence of COVID of 181/5,000,000 The population of Florida is about 20 million so that would mean shutting down with 725 positive tests in the state. Do you really want to tell me about how we should be doing what Australia is doing? The study you linked looked at 9 children. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that tiny bit of data.

The point you seem unable to grasp is that the pandemic here is not matched by the experience in any other country except Brazil which is run by a maniac IMO. You want to talk percentages? We are under 5% of the world population but have 25% of the cases and 25% of the world deaths. We are not Europe, they have it under control. We are not Australia, they have it under control. We are not China or South Korea they have it under control. We are Brazil. Except Brazil has its schools closed (https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/04/brazil-government-and-institution-measures-in-response-to-covid.html)in the major cities.

A responsible planning consideration for opening schools (https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/) has been issued by the AAP.


Your links describe a hotspot in Melbourne only, where they have reclosed schools. Not the whole country. Nothing about this new hotspot being related to schools, except "a few students tested positive"

Doesn't matter, the study I posted showed very low transmission of covid in schools to teachers and students. Hotspot panic in Melbourne story does not disprove the study.

See post #21 for a clear view of how schools in Sweden stayed open during entire pandemic when their cases per million kept pace with USA. 9 deaths under 30.

I really don't care what Australian government may or may not do. Actual data from Sweden refutes the entire panic over schools reopening, because they never closed and nothing bad happened.

Forget scientific studies and government guidelines, we have actual data from Sweden. Schools stayed open during entire pandemic and we have actual results. NO PROBLEMS

[MandoMan]

I’m a just-retired college professor, so here is my prediction about college campuses. My state university, like many, plans to open this fall, but in crowded classrooms, classes will be divided in half, and one half will be in class every other class day. Thus, for a Tuesday/Thursday class, half the class will come to class on Tuesday and half on Thursday. The teachers will try to teach the same material in both class periods. For Monday/Wednesday/Friday, half the class will come on Monday and Friday one week and Wednesday the next week. (In, say, a Composition class with 20 students in a room that seats 40, students will come every class day, but will sit far from each other. The same goes for small upper division classes.) All students must wear masks walking too and from classes and in the classroom, and so will the teachers.

So far, so good. But every class day, I picked up about 100 new assignments, graded them, and wrote the grades in the gradebook, and I also passed back a hundred, touching each one and walking up and down the rows of desks. Teachers can wear masks, but air conditioning or heating is on, windows are closed, and there isn’t much fresh air. They can if the choose wear gloves all day, including while grading papers. I would. Will most teachers? I don’t know.

The classrooms seem pretty safe, but that’s not the entire story. Some 90% of my students held down part time or full time jobs while going to college. Will all of those jobs be safe? A third lived at home, and more went home on weekends. Many of those homes were small and had a lot of people living there. The rest of my students lived in dorms—two or three to a room, often a badly-ventilated room, with communal showers and toilets down the hall. Or they lived in apartments or houses they rented in town, usually four to six people per apartment with shared bedrooms. If one of those students in an apartment gets sick, there’s an excellent chance that most will. Also, a lot of my students loved partying above all things. What does it matter if the bars are closed if half my students attend large parties several times every week? We are talking parties with 100-200 students there, many kegs of beer, very loud with people shouting at each other from inches away to be heard, often in unventilated basements. Imagine bathrooms with ten people waiting in line to use the shared soap and wet towels.

In short, the colleges are planning relatively safe classrooms. However, when five or ten or twenty or a hundred students get sick (almost as crammed in as Bushnell Prison or a local nursing home), parents will push schools to return to online learning, and many will.

What will happen then? Colleges will have to refund most of the room and board fees. Landlords my be asked to do the same. Janitors and dorm personnel and cafeteria personnel will be laid off. Students on teams may lose their scholarships (and these are often minority students.) Many students will drop out because they find online classes harder. Possibly several hundred colleges will close for good because they can’t afford to stay open. Then several thousand teachers and administrators will unexpectedly enter the job market. But they will find that no school is hiring.

This sounds dire, but I think this is a fair, sober prediction. Expect it to come true.

In late April, the last week of class, one of my students emailed me to request a few extra days to complete her final assignment because her father had been taken to the hospital with Covid-19. I said yes, of course. She was a hard-working Mexican-American girl, an A student. She was working full-time as a custodian in the hospital, and her father had been doing that, too, in the same hospital. A few days later she wrote to say her father was improving and out of the ICU. A few days later I personally sent her her final grade and asked how her father was doing. She wrote back that he had died the day before, unexpectedly. She still had to work and was glad she had a job. Her father was dead! He was barely forty, providing essential services! He had a family he loved, and they loved him.

In early April I got an email from a colleague in another department. I’d never heard of her. Her daughter was in one of my classes. She had come down with the virus and was in the hospital. Imagine being a teacher, and your daughter makes it to college, then gets sick that way. The daughter improved, though, and came home. But she couldn’t focus her eyes enough to read, and she couldn’t think much. She was weak and had a headache all the time. She couldn’t breathe well. Her mother read her the final book of the semester out loud and helped her with the daily homework. Did the mother cheat? Who cares? No way would I even ask. (The mother said she herself loved the novel she read aloud.)

I’m very well aware of the economic costs we are facing. My retirement funds fell a long ways. I’m expecting a crash in the next few months. We need to reopen things. Had we known what we know now, we could have left most stores open and just required masks (not bars or restaurants or sporting events or theaters, though—too dangerous). I’m sympathetic to the Swedish approach, counting on people to take care of themselves and keep the economy going and accepting that thousands will die. I’m retired, so I won’t be teaching, and I don’t have an agenda or a political stance on this. I’m simply saying that in colleges, many students will not practice “safe partying” or “social distancing at home,” and there will be outbreaks on many campuses. Whether or not closing the colleges is the best solution, they WILL be closed because administrations will listen to the risk managers, and the risk managers will say you have to close or face lawsuits. Prudence and caution and job protection are built into the minds of college administrators. The word “lawsuit” strikes fear in their hearts.

There are 400 teachers in my university. Most spent over 23 years on their education. How many of them are you will to see die of the virus this year? What is an acceptable casualty rate for this year? 1%? 2%? 5%? That’s 20 teachers.

This is more difficult than some people believe. Just how precious is human life? How far should we go to Protect the economic well-being of our country? Tough questions!

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

[Two Bills]

Your links describe a hotspot in Melbourne only, where they have reclosed schools. Not the whole country. Nothing about this new hotspot being related to schools, except "a few students tested positive"

Doesn't matter, the study I posted showed very low transmission of covid in schools to teachers and students. Hotspot panic in Melbourne story does not disprove the study.

See post #21 for a clear view of how schools in Sweden stayed open during entire pandemic when their cases per million kept pace with USA. 9 deaths under 30.

I really don't care what Australian government may or may not do. Actual data from Sweden refutes the entire panic over schools reopening, because they never closed and nothing bad happened.

Forget scientific studies and government guidelines, we have actual data from Sweden. Schools stayed open during entire pandemic and we have actual results. NO PROBLEMS

Whatever the numbers for Swedish schools, the rest of their policy was an unmitigated disaster compared to all other Nordic countries, and the much vaunted Herd Immunity is still a pipe dream!

[GoodLife]

You posted a link from april on the school experience in Australia, a country that has had a tiny fraction of the disease compared to here.

Okey dokey, how about we compare schools in Sweden vs Finland. Sweden never closed their schools, never locked down, didn't use masks.

Finland closed their schools for 2 months, locked down, advised use of masks.

Sweden was hit hard by covid 19, with 7300 confirmed cases per million, not quite as high as USA or Brazil but definitely among the highest worldwide.

Finland was not hit too hard, with 1300 cases per million.

So if open schools were very risky, you would expect lots more school age cases in hard hit Sweden where schools remained open, than in Finland where cases were six times less and schools actually closed for 2 months.

You'd be wrong.

Here is a report produced jointly by the Public Health agencies of Sweden and Finland.

There were ZERO deaths from covid 19 in both countries for students aged 1 to 19

Covid 19 case incidents per 100,000 students was 52 in Finland and 49 in Sweden.

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbfde4a7899eb0d8ffdb57b09/covid-19-school-aged-children.pdf

So that's as real world as you can get, actual data, no BS theories or modeling whatsoever.

If you are worried about teachers, scroll down to table 4. Out of 293,038 day care, primary, and secondary teachers in Sweden, 381 have tested positive. Since their average age is between 45-50 very few of them died, and it would be wrong to assume they all caught it while teaching. Anyway, according to Sweden case stats, teachers are among the lowest risk profession.

[Gulfcoast]

I’m a just-retired college professor, so here is my prediction about college campuses. My state university, like many, plans to open this fall, but in crowded classrooms, classes will be divided in half, and one half will be in class every other class day. Thus, for a Tuesday/Thursday class, half the class will come to class on Tuesday and half on Thursday. The teachers will try to teach the same material in both class periods. For Monday/Wednesday/Friday, half the class will come on Monday and Friday one week and Wednesday the next week. (In, say, a Composition class with 20 students in a room that seats 40, students will come every class day, but will sit far from each other. The same goes for small upper division classes.) All students must wear masks walking too and from classes and in the classroom, and so will the teachers.

So far, so good. But every class day, I picked up about 100 new assignments, graded them, and wrote the grades in the gradebook, and I also passed back a hundred, touching each one and walking up and down the rows of desks. Teachers can wear masks, but air conditioning or heating is on, windows are closed, and there isn’t much fresh air. They can if the choose wear gloves all day, including while grading papers. I would. Will most teachers? I don’t know.

The classrooms seem pretty safe, but that’s not the entire story. Some 90% of my students held down part time or full time jobs while going to college. Will all of those jobs be safe? A third lived at home, and more went home on weekends. Many of those homes were small and had a lot of people living there. The rest of my students lived in dorms—two or three to a room, often a badly-ventilated room, with communal showers and toilets down the hall. Or they lived in apartments or houses they rented in town, usually four to six people per apartment with shared bedrooms. If one of those students in an apartment gets sick, there’s an excellent chance that most will. Also, a lot of my students loved partying above all things. What does it matter if the bars are closed if half my students attend large parties several times every week? We are talking parties with 100-200 students there, many kegs of beer, very loud with people shouting at each other from inches away to be heard, often in unventilated basements. Imagine bathrooms with ten people waiting in line to use the shared soap and wet towels.

In short, the colleges are planning relatively safe classrooms. However, when five or ten or twenty or a hundred students get sick (almost as crammed in as Bushnell Prison or a local nursing home), parents will push schools to return to online learning, and many will.

What will happen then? Colleges will have to refund most of the room and board fees. Landlords my be asked to do the same. Janitors and dorm personnel and cafeteria personnel will be laid off. Students on teams may lose their scholarships (and these are often minority students.) Many students will drop out because they find online classes harder. Possibly several hundred colleges will close for good because they can’t afford to stay open. Then several thousand teachers and administrators will unexpectedly enter the job market. But they will find that no school is hiring.

This sounds dire, but I think this is a fair, sober prediction. Expect it to come true.

In late April, the last week of class, one of my students emailed me to request a few extra days to complete her final assignment because her father had been taken to the hospital with Covid-19. I said yes, of course. She was a hard-working Mexican-American girl, an A student. She was working full-time as a custodian in the hospital, and her father had been doing that, too, in the same hospital. A few days later she wrote to say her father was improving and out of the ICU. A few days later I personally sent her her final grade and asked how her father was doing. She wrote back that he had died the day before, unexpectedly. She still had to work and was glad she had a job. Her father was dead! He was barely forty, providing essential services! He had a family he loved, and they loved him.

In early April I got an email from a colleague in another department. I’d never heard of her. Her daughter was in one of my classes. She had come down with the virus and was in the hospital. Imagine being a teacher, and your daughter makes it to college, then gets sick that way. The daughter improved, though, and came home. But she couldn’t focus her eyes enough to read, and she couldn’t think much. She was weak and had a headache all the time. She couldn’t breathe well. Her mother read her the final book of the semester out loud and helped her with the daily homework. Did the mother cheat? Who cares? No way would I even ask. (The mother said she herself loved the novel she read aloud.)

I’m very well aware of the economic costs we are facing. My retirement funds fell a long ways. I’m expecting a crash in the next few months. We need to reopen things. Had we known what we know now, we could have left most stores open and just required masks (not bars or restaurants or sporting events or theaters, though—too dangerous). I’m sympathetic to the Swedish approach, counting on people to take care of themselves and keep the economy going and accepting that thousands will die. I’m retired, so I won’t be teaching, and I don’t have an agenda or a political stance on this. I’m simply saying that in colleges, many students will not practice “safe partying” or “social distancing at home,” and there will be outbreaks on many campuses. Whether or not closing the colleges is the best solution, they WILL be closed because administrations will listen to the risk managers, and the risk managers will say you have to close or face lawsuits. Prudence and caution and job protection are built into the minds of college administrators. The word “lawsuit” strikes fear in their hearts.

There are 400 teachers in my university. Most spent over 23 years on their education. How many of them are you will to see die of the virus this year? What is an acceptable casualty rate for this year? 1%? 2%? 5%? That’s 20 teachers.

This is more difficult than some people believe. Just how precious is human life? How far should we go to Protect the economic well-being of our country? Tough questions!

Retail workers, food service workers, police officers, EMTs, healthcare workers, pharmacy techs, prison guards, the staff taking care of the residents in LTCs...

All public facing positions are dealing with the public right now and have been for months.

I'm not sure why teachers and college professors would face any higher risk than the rest of these workers do. Our kids need an education, they want to be around their friends, they are also at low risk for complications from this virus. Most instructors were hired with the expectation that they would do face to face classroom instruction and they accepted their positions well aware that viruses go around every year.

[GoodLife]

Whatever the numbers for Swedish schools, the rest of their policy was an unmitigated disaster compared to all other Nordic countries, and the much vaunted Herd Immunity is still a pipe dream!

Not sure why this myth of only comparing to Sweden's nordic neighbors is legit. The virus was spread around the world by travelers, some countries got heavily seeded. Some didn't. It also depends on where your visitors were coming from.

Sweden gets more visitors than Finland or Norway.

Can your pipe dream explain these graphs? Sweden's death totals are plummeting just like USA. No lockdown, no masks to explain it.

85157

Sweden's case rate is plummeting now, while USA is going up! What the heck is going on? USA can blame surge of new cases on reopening and protests. What do we blame Sweden's plummeting cases and deaths on?? Give me your best theory.

I wonder if Sweden has reached some sort of immunity threshold, while USA has not.

85159

Also a little known fact, 75% of Sweden's death total came from nursing homes. Everybody got that one wrong. USA is about 40% If Sweden had been smarter about the highest risk group, their overall strategy would be looking great now. If places with huge surges in new cases get more deaths, Sweden might look even better if their cases and deaths continue downward.

[jacksonbrown]

Whether or not closing the colleges is the best solution, they WILL be closed because administrations will listen to the risk managers, and the risk managers will say you have to close or face lawsuits. Prudence and caution and job protection are built into the minds of college administrators. The word “lawsuit” strikes fear in their hearts.

Exactly!

And public schools too could remain closed.

Because, once the lawsuits start, "enterprising" lawyers will sue everyone with even a tertiary relationship to the schools, both public and private.

This includes teachers, professors, support staff, regents, principals, presidents, counselors, janitorial staff, lunch room workers, politicians, school board members, county commissioners ......

[banjobob]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?
My opinion open the schools !! thankfully Florida is moving forward .

[Beyond The Wall]

If your waiting for a vaccine to live life again you might be waiting for a long time. Still waiting for HIV ,which Dr Fauci leads, since 1986.

The danger in in opening schools is to the at risk teachers. If you are a teacher with health issues, might be a good time to consider retiring.

[Cheapbas]

All of us went through this when our kids were small, they were germ factories then and it’s not going to work now. Which one of you would want to see your grandkids forced back into classrooms by someone who’s agenda isn’t their education.

Think ahead now how you are going to feel to the moment you find out one of your grandkid has passed. And add to it it was because some clown who doesn’t know what he is doing made them do it.

They are not ready for this and need one more semester of on-line Class rooms and alternative learning. Many states opened too early, how’d that go?

[asianthree]

Children are falling behind, Parents can only do so much, after all teaching is not their profession. Some students just don’t do well with online classes.

If we choose to not open this generation May have many issues down the road.

Plus think of how many children rely on their meals while they’re in school. Sometimes there’s just no food at their home.

Also think about the uptick in abuse from children being at home 24/7. We could be doing children a great harm by not opening up the schoolS

[trichard]

Yes

[La lamy]

I was always so fearful of getting sick when I taught (compromised lungs). There was always someone sick in the room, coughing, sneezing, and because there wasn't windows that opened in our school, all the air was recycled. They said the air was filtered, but all of us always got sick many times a year. I can't imagine ever wanting to go back to teaching in those circumstances with a deadly virus floating around.

[allsport]

NO not the way this gov is doing it. You have to test everyday, plenty of hand washing stations, 12 kids per classroom, masks mandatory for everyone, temp checks every morning and afternoon. Do it right and you can do it, wrong and end up like the church camp in Missouri, 84 sick people.

[Nucky]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

Safe for children, teachers, administrators staff? That was the real question.

I think a person's answer will depend if they have any skin in the game. For me, it's homeschool till the Vaccination is released and we find out that it works. Nobody is going to die from staying home for a while longer. Toughen up Buttercups!

Too many things have to go perfectly for school to work out properly. Not willing to risk anyone for $$ Money $$. :pray:

As long as everyone is alive all feeding and parenting issues can be figured out.

[allsport]

Is that based on science, no, be better.

[Nucky]

Is that based on science, no, be better.

The OP'S question was not based on science.

What does Be Better mean exactly?

[Dana1963]

It’s all about childcare and to get people back to work. In today’s conditions who would be willing to leave the BUBBLE and assist taking care of grandchildren so parents could go back to work. And assist in home schooling. I rather doubt it.

[toeser]

I am "up North" for the summer. Here, there is zero social distancing by kids. They are playing football, basketball, soccer, softball, etc. There is little league baseball going on. The beach is wall to wall kids, all about 3" apart. For the kids, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by not reopening schools. The issue is will teachers and staff be safe?

Some parents can't go to work if their kids are not in school. I have heard child psychologists talk about how destructive it is for kids not to have a school environment. We have to try to find ways to mitigate the risk for teachers, but go ahead with reopening. We have no idea when and how this pandemic will end. We can't stay closed forever.

[kenoc7]

Frontline workers have been going into work from the get go. Just think about all of the workers in retail, food service, police, EMTs, healthcare, transportation, etc that are already out there in the trenches.

I think that it's fine for the vast majority of kids (and school employees) to go back to work. Distance learning will be available for those who prefer it just as it was available this past spring.

If kids can go to the mall, the beach, pool parties with friends, church camps, summer jobs, team sports etc they can go back to school.
"If kids can go to the mall, the beach, pool parties with friends, church camps, summer jobs, team sports etc they can go back to school."

In states with increasing cases and hospitalizations, kids clearly shouldn't be doing those things.

[toeser]

You posted a link from april on the school experience in Australia, a country that has had a tiny fraction of the disease compared to here. Somehow you missed all the newer stories about Australian schools being closed down due to Covid cases.

Virus sets off new school closures in Australia (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/asia-today-virus-sets-off-school-closures-australia-71396509)
After 181 cases in a city of 5 million, what did they do in Australia (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53335745) just this week?

Apparently the government of Australia does not believe in keeping the schools open with an incidence of COVID of 181/5,000,000 The population of Florida is about 20 million so that would mean shutting down with 725 positive tests in the state. Do you really want to tell me about how we should be doing what Australia is doing? The study you linked looked at 9 children. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that tiny bit of data.

The point you seem unable to grasp is that the pandemic here is not matched by the experience in any other country except Brazil which is run by a maniac IMO. You want to talk percentages? We are under 5% of the world population but have 25% of the cases and 25% of the world deaths. We are not Europe, they have it under control. We are not Australia, they have it under control. We are not China or South Korea they have it under control. We are Brazil. Except Brazil has its schools closed (https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/04/brazil-government-and-institution-measures-in-response-to-covid.html)in the major cities.

A responsible planning consideration for opening schools (https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/) has been issued by the AAP.

The fact is that on a population adjusted basis, looking at deaths, the U.S. is not doing worse than much of Europe. Maybe we will pass them in time, but so far there are still several countries in Europe that have more deaths per million people than the U.S. Also, New York, if it was a country, would be the worst country on earth for COVID-19. Their nursing home policies were a complete and utter disaster. New York's experience has dragged down results for the entire U.S.

[kenoc7]

Wow, talk about a $50K question...

It has to be tough being a parent with school age kids right now...you aren't sure if you should be buying back to school things, or just more wine

I spoke with an elementary principal yesterday...all 12 of the custodians at her school are currently out for 14 days due to one of them testing positive earlier in the week for the virus....although the custodians have been working for awhile, there's no way the building will be ready to open for the deadline.

At least one teacher is in quarantine as are a couple of aids

Do I personally think it's safe...to a degree yes, but this is not a yes or no question. It's a no for anyone (young of old) with a health issue.

It's critical that kids education continue...and they need to get out of the house and socialize with their friends...

IMHO there are too many open questions for those of us that are "beyond arm's length" to make an informed decision on this. I do believe that the adults will be the ones that will be most at risk though, as kids bounce back quickly.

So what happens when a significant number of teachers and aids in a school test positive? Or there's an outbreak among the bus drivers or the custodians? or the cafeteria staff?
Is there a contingency plan...most likely not.

If a teacher tests positive...does the whole class go into quarantine? If the teachers all share a lunch/break room, how many peers would have to go into quarantine?

If someone refuses to wear a mask because this is a free country...what's the school's position?

Are teachers, staff and students going to be screened upon entry daily, will they all wear masks? and will those that show signs of the virus be sent home? (or quarantined somewhere in the school until a parent can come for them)

What's the deal with meal programs? Many families depend upon the school meal program...will the school cafeteria practice social distancing?

Are the classrooms large enough so that the desks can be arranged in a social distancing pattern...or do class sizes need to be smaller?

Will every school have someone empowered to make the right call on all of the above?

We can't continue to 'give up' teaching the arts, history, geography, shop, home economics and gym...these are important too

It's time that a 'new model' for learning is introduced at all levels in the system....a blend of f2f and virtual most likely needs to be embraced. There should be enough folks in the higher ranks in the educational hierarchy to focus on designing a new approach for learning. Universities have done it...no reason that public school systems can't.

The younger generation has grown up with technology...it's the old adults that will have the most challenge making any shift from the traditional f2f format
"If someone refuses to wear a mask because this is a free country...what's the school's position?"

Wearing a mask has - or should - have nothing to do with being a free country. It is about public health, the common good and protecting others, and others protecting us.

[erojohn]

The schools need to be open. Life is not safe. Present the facts the opportunity and the choice to go or not. If the stay at homes can do the assignment. Grade and pass fail as the case may be. If the stay at home parent can help with instructions great if not too bad. Sink or swim. Kinda cold I know. Life isn’t easy.

[TomPerry]

I went to the link you provided. It discusses the situation in Sweden and Denmark. Neither country had the community spread we have here. Of interest in your link for how Denmark opened


I don't think that is what is being proposed here. For a more comprehensive discussion of what is known and more importantly what is not known. HERE (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks)

How many new cases were identified in Germany, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark yesterday? Can you really use their experience with safety of reopening schools as a guideline to the situation in the US where we are far and away the worst petri dish in the world.

What are the number of positive and negative test results in these countries? Probably not testing at the same level as the USA!

[WVB#1]

What I am amazed about is how many people are OBSESSED with this virus. Scouring websites, printing graphs, fact checking each other, taking about it non-stop. Endless threads on this website. Fear mongering. But I guess some people have to find something to do while they have stopped living. I'm also amazed how quickly people have bought into this "world is going to end" mantra. Have you not heard how the numbers are being over reported - drastically over reported. And for those that say one death is too many - give me a break. Name one thing, anything, that doesn't cause someone to die. It's a fact that we live, then we die. Fact check that.

[Jdunn]

Life threatening right now. How could anyone send their child into a crowded room under these circumstances?
This would be child abuse and WILL cause some children to die. One child dying is too many. Stop this insanity and listen to the medical and scientific experts. Wait for a vaccine before endangering the lives of children.

Maybe you should take your own advice and listen to actual doctors and experts.

[Dkay718]

Get a grip. Stop the fear mongering.

[GoodLife]

What are the number of positive and negative test results in these countries? Probably not testing at the same level as the USA!

The comment you are replying to contains a gigantic error.

Originally Posted by blueash
It discusses the situation in Sweden and Denmark. Neither country had the community spread we have here.

Sweden was hit very hard by the virus with 7300 confirmed cases per million, USA is 9772 per million. Sweden is ranked #12 in the world for cases per million, USA is ranked #8. So saying Sweden did not have similar community spread to USA is complete nonsense.

Current COVID-19 situation - COVID 19 graph & data (https://covidgraph.com/)

So when you look at actual data from Sweden which kept schools open during entire outbreak and see zero deaths and very low positive cases in students and teachers you can see that in reality, reopening schools is not dangerous. Lots of people will make erroneous statements or quote irrelevant facts and try to convince you otherwise.

PS In regard to testing, USA has tested double the amount per capita as Sweden as I noted previously.

[Daxdog]

We are the greatest nation on earth, of course we can find a way! If parents don’t think it’s safe keep home schooling, it’s that simple. Now let’s press on with important stuff. How to stop robocalls!

[margearch309@gmail.com]

It seems we can't control the virus in the state of Florida and it grows each day so how can we expect the schools to be safe for our most precious children. Marge

[manaboutown]

I know an American who has for several years taught physics in a South Korean school. When the Chinese coronavirus outbreak started they closed the schools and he flew back to the US with his wife and baby. He taught over the internet for quite a while. Then in May he flew back, going through a two week quarantine after a thorough check at the airport. He then went back to teaching at the school. This is how the South Koreans are conducting school. It is a new norm for sure. South Korea'''s COVID precautions as students head back to school offers a glimpse of what'''s needed to re-open - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/International/high-school-seniors-head-back-school-south-korea/story?id=70784590)

[Aspillaga60@yahoo.com]

It has to be tough being a parent with school age kids right now...you aren't sure if you should be buying back to school things, or just more wine

I spoke with an elementary principal yesterday...all 12 of the custodians at her school are currently out for 14 days due to one of them testing positive earlier in the week for the virus....although the custodians have been working for awhile, there's no way the building will be ready to open for the deadline.

At least one teacher is in quarantine as are a couple of aids

Do I personally think it's safe...to a degree yes, but this is not a yes or no question. It's a no for anyone (young of old) with a health issue.

It's critical that kids education continue...and they need to get out of the house and socialize with their friends...

IMHO there are too many open questions for those of us that are "beyond arm's length" to make an informed decision on this. I do believe that the adults will be the ones that will be most at risk though, as kids bounce back quickly.

So what happens when a significant number of teachers and aids in a school test positive? Or there's an outbreak among the bus drivers or the custodians? or the cafeteria staff?
Is there a contingency plan...most likely not.

If a teacher tests positive...does the whole class go into quarantine? If the teachers all share a lunch/break room, how many peers would have to go into quarantine?

If someone refuses to wear a mask because this is a free country...what's the school's position?

Are teachers, staff and students going to be screened upon entry daily, will they all wear masks? and will those that show signs of the virus be sent home? (or quarantined somewhere in the school until a parent can come for them)

What's the deal with meal programs? Many families depend upon the school meal program...will the school cafeteria practice social distancing?

Are the classrooms large enough so that the desks can be arranged in a social distancing pattern...or do class sizes need to be smaller?

Will every school have someone empowered to make the right call on all of the above?

We can't continue to 'give up' teaching the arts, history, geography, shop, home economics and gym...these are important too

It's time that a 'new model' for learning is introduced at all levels in the system....a blend of f2f and virtual most likely needs to be embraced. There should be enough folks in the higher ranks in the educational hierarchy to focus on designing a new approach for learning. Universities have done it...no reason that public school systems can't.

The younger generation has grown up with technology...it's the old adults that will have the most challenge making any shift from the traditional f2f format[/QUOTE]
This is a free country, is true but kind of self fish not to wear mask when you go out. It is to protect yourself and others. How hard is to understand that???::pray:

[donfey]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

IMO, if we DON'T reopen, pretty much everything, we will never gain the herd immunity few need. Personal responsibility should be what keeps us (a bit) safer, not government mandates - especially when "what we know" changes regularly.

I wear a mask as a courtesy - to protect others from me, not to protect myself. That nothing more than respect for others.

[donfey]

Lack of proper education far more destructive than a virus.
Our youth are poorly educated as it is..Falling further behind will have much longer consequences that what they are facing now

But that our kids could get a "proper education" in our government schools.

[MandoMan]

Retail workers, food service workers, police officers, EMTs, healthcare workers, pharmacy techs, prison guards, the staff taking care of the residents in LTCs...

All public facing positions are dealing with the public right now and have been for months.

I'm not sure why teachers and college professors would face any higher risk than the rest of these workers do. Our kids need an education, they want to be around their friends, they are also at low risk for complications from this virus. Most instructors were hired with the expectation that they would do face to face classroom instruction and they accepted their positions well aware that viruses go around every year.

You are right that college professors are not at more risk than are the other groups you mention. Perhaps less! Elementary and secondary teachers are in a similar position. They all need to take great care. I do know that many viruses go around, and I did accept that. I was careful enough that I was able to accumulate 370 days of sick leave. My intent was not to complain that teachers have it hard. My intent was to answer the original question regarding what is likely to happen this school year. I think many colleges will end up returning to online teaching by mid-semester. This will affect the economy in ways many people haven’t considered. In the town where my university is located, the school is by far the biggest employer, and many of those employees are local people.

[Doglover9409]

Yes it is safe, many European countries have already done so without problems. Studies show children tend to not infect adults much at all, it is adults who infect children

CDC death totals per age group. As this chart shows, people under 24 years old are much more likely to die of other causes than from covid 19. Like 1000 times more likely. Under 24 deaths from Covid = 171 Under 24 deaths from other causes = 22,214

Let's keep everything shut down forever because someone might die. :22yikes:

85146

My granddaughter caught COVID-19 at a Lady Lake daycare in the beginning of June. The school notified the parents that another student was positive and closed the school for cleaning. Seven year old granddaughter only had a sore throat and a deep cough. No fever. She spread to her mom and teenage brothers Before they suspected it was COVID. The teens took 10 days to have mild symptoms. Just sore throat and fatigue that lasted about 10-12 days. My daughter got sick 2 days after exposure and is still sick a month later! She has had a positive test. She had headache, chills, sore throat, deep cough and severe fatigue aches and brain fog. Much worse response than the kids. So yes, kids can get it and spread it to the parents!

[MandoMan]

"If someone refuses to wear a mask because this is a free country...what's the school's position?"

Wearing a mask has - or should - have nothing to do with being a free country. It is about public health, the common good and protecting others, and others protecting us.

I agree with you. When I started teaching at my state university in 1986, students were allowed to smoke in the unventilated hallways and teachers were allowed to smoke in their offices and in the classrooms. (They weren’t allowed to drink on campus, though my department chair kept a bottle of scotch in his desk drawer.) Then students were not allowed to smoke in the halls. Then they weren’t allowed to smoke in their dorm rooms. Then teachers weren’t allowed to smoke in the classroom. The teachers weren’t allowed to teach in their offices. (This led to most teachers who smoked giving it up.) To me this seems like a matter of personal freedom (though I’ve never smoked a cigarette). Oddly, no one complained, not, even the union leaders who were heavy smokers.

I would assume that if masks are required at my school, masks will be worn. It’s not a matter of freedom. I wouldn’t be allowed to go to class without pants, even if I want to. Does that infringe on my freedom? Sure. But I live with it. I wouldn’t have been allowed to make sexist or racist remarks in class. I could lose my job over it. Does that infringe on my freedom of speech? Yes! But I didn’t want to, anyway. Even freedom of expression and speech has many limits in this country. So does freedom od assembly, and the press, and worship. Freedom from face masks was not enshrined in the Bill of Rights.

[Gulfcoast]

You are right that college professors are not at more risk than are the other groups you mention. Perhaps less! Elementary and secondary teachers are in a similar position. They all need to take great care. I do know that many viruses go around, and I did accept that. I was careful enough that I was able to accumulate 370 days of sick leave. My intent was not to complain that teachers have it hard. My intent was to answer the original question regarding what is likely to happen this school year. I think many colleges will end up returning to online teaching by mid-semester. This will affect the economy in ways many people haven’t considered. In the town where my university is located, the school is by far the biggest employer, and many of those employees are local people.

I think that the colleges should reopen their campuses. Period. All of this strange, and quite frankly UNscientific freaking out over this thing is disturbing - especially in higher learning. If someone needs to avoid human contact then they can distance learn.

[jimjamuser]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?
No way Jose! Better to try for after Jan when more is known about CV. Maybe some treatment springs up. Also needed are full PPEs provided through the DPA legislation.

[makani]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening?

I am an actively employed 25-year middle school teacher and a part-time online AP world history teacher in Hawaii researching retirement options, maybe early retirement. I can personally attest educators want to see their kids in the classroom. Most teachers teach because it is important work, not for the salary. Online instruction does not work for every student. Motivated, intelligent students do well. If a student has special needs, lacks support at home, is homeless, and/or lacks motivation, online learning can be challenging. Online instruction takes more time to prepare than face-to-face instruction and many teachers had to be trained because it is different. Many teachers had to teach from home while their own kids were at home competing with computer use, just as any working parent had to do. Nothing beats face-to-face instruction. Parents depend on schools being open so they can go to work. Kids need to socialize with each other. It is not healthy being in front of a screen most of the day. Safety is a huge issue.

We plan on rotating students in secondary schools. We will split the classes - one group attends Mon. and Wed., the other group attends on Tues. and Thurs. When one group is at school, the other half are online. Friday is for students who have special needs or need other interventions, IEP meetings, etc. We do not have the physical space for social distancing. Our class sizes have always been too large. We do not have enough personnel. We have always had a teaching shortage, especially in Hawaii. Believe me, there are not enough people who want to substitute teach, let alone choose a teaching career. We do not have enough resources. I purchase my own disinfectant, tissues, and other supplies yearly and will no doubt increase that this year. Schools are germy Petri dishes. We require 6-foot distancing and masks at stores, but aren't our kids and teachers important too? What happens if, no when, a teacher gets sick and is out for a minimum of 2 weeks? What happens when teachers and students bring the virus home to an at-risk family member? Our COVID numbers are low in Hawaii - totaling approximately 1,100 in the entire state, 19 deaths. The numbers will go up when the 14-day travel quarantine is lifted and tourists from the hot spots visit. I hope to teach 2-5 more years until I retire - hopefully to the Villages. My husband is healthy but had a kidney transplant. He is staying with his 93-year-old mom on the mainland. I suggested he stay there until we have a vaccine because I do not want to risk his health when I return to school in 3 weeks. Be safe everyone. I am praying for a vaccine, it's our only solution right now as opposed to survival of the fittest. Sorry this is so long but thought you may want to hear a working teacher's perspective.

[chet2020]

The comment you are replying to contains a gigantic error.

Originally Posted by blueash
It discusses the situation in Sweden and Denmark. Neither country had the community spread we have here.

Sweden was hit very hard by the virus with 7300 confirmed cases per million, USA is 9772 per million. Sweden is ranked #12 in the world for cases per million, USA is ranked #8. So saying Sweden did not have similar community spread to USA is complete nonsense.

Current COVID-19 situation - COVID 19 graph & data (https://covidgraph.com/)

So when you look at actual data from Sweden which kept schools open during entire outbreak and see zero deaths and very low positive cases in students and teachers you can see that in reality, reopening schools is not dangerous. Lots of people will make erroneous statements or quote irrelevant facts and try to convince you otherwise.

PS In regard to testing, USA has tested double the amount per capita as Sweden as I noted previously.

I too was interested in how the Swedish approach would work out. Not well, as it turns out.

Death Rates per 100,000:

Norway 4.7
Finland 6.0
Denmark 10.5
Sweden 54.0

Sweden's economy is in the tank, just like everyone else's. Just saw an interview with a Swedish restaurateur. She had three restaurants, 150 employees. She's down to one restaurant, 10 employees. You can't fix the economy until you squash the virus. We had our chance when we quenched the first wave - then we blew it.

BTW, South Korea, Japan, Iceland, New Zealand squashed the virus, now their economies are full steam ahead (with the exception of no crowds at sporting events). Simple approach - large-scale testing, tracing, and isolation, something the greatest country in the world couldn't manage.

New Zealand 0.5
South Korea 0.6
Japan 0.8
Iceland 2.8
U.S. 40.7

[jimjamuser]

I too was interested in how the Swedish approach would work out. Not well, as it turns out.

Death Rates per 100,000:

Norway 4.7
Finland 6.0
Denmark 10.5
Sweden 54.0

Sweden's economy is in the tank, just like everyone else's. Just saw an interview with a Swedish restaurateur. She had three restaurants, 150 employees. She's down to one restaurant, 10 employees. You can't fix the economy until you squash the virus. We had our chance when we quenched the first wave - then we blew it.

BTW, South Korea, Japan, Iceland, New Zealand squashed the virus, now their economies are full steam ahead (with the exception of no crowds at sporting events). Simple approach - large-scale testing, tracing, and isolation, something the greatest country in the world couldn't manage.

New Zealand 0.5
South Korea 0.6
Japan 0.8
Iceland 2.8
U.S. 40.7
US still in 1st wave. 2nd will be in fall/winter.

[John41]

Another reason for home schooling. Keep your children safe and give them a better education than indoctrination in public schools.

[Gulfcoast]

I too was interested in how the Swedish approach would work out. Not well, as it turns out.

Death Rates per 100,000:

Norway 4.7
Finland 6.0
Denmark 10.5
Sweden 54.0

Sweden's economy is in the tank, just like everyone else's. Just saw an interview with a Swedish restaurateur. She had three restaurants, 150 employees. She's down to one restaurant, 10 employees. You can't fix the economy until you squash the virus. We had our chance when we quenched the first wave - then we blew it.

BTW, South Korea, Japan, Iceland, New Zealand squashed the virus, now their economies are full steam ahead (with the exception of no crowds at sporting events). Simple approach - large-scale testing, tracing, and isolation, something the greatest country in the world couldn't manage.

New Zealand 0.5
South Korea 0.6
Japan 0.8
Iceland 2.8
U.S. 40.7

How is the virus squashed anywhere when it is still all over the world? Not having a current outbreak doesn't mean that the virus is no longer out there.

People who think that this virus is miraculously going to go away because people are wearing homemade masks are engaging in magical, wishful thinking.

[Nanny32162]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?
I think that it is dangerous to open fully, a modified schedule say Monday, Tuesday for half; thorough cleaning on Wednesday and Thursday, Friday for the other half; the children that were not in school would connect through distance learning, and have interaction with the others in the classroom. Masks should be required. There is no way that there is anyway a school could know all the contacts children have had, they could be carriers and no one would be aware of it. A classroom crowded with children is a germy place under the best of circumstances. The argument that it is hard on working parents doesn't fly, since when were schools a babysitting service?

[JimJohnson]

Being a retired school teacher, Gracie, what is your opinion?

[graciegirl]

Being a retired school teacher, Gracie, what is your opinion?

I was reading some of the responses and wondered how bad it could be to just forget school and formal education for a year to see if things are better and safer later for teachers and kids. I hear arguments that children forget what they learned over summer, but I don't know. I remember my high school French and some really useless higher math and I graduated in '57. Perhaps they could be taught to be helpful keeping the home clean or seeing how it is to plant vegetables and fruit to eat, or even planting flowers and tending them. I mowed the yard with an old fashioned no motor lawn mower and we had a hill in front. It was HOT in July. High school kids could be taught how to run a home and how much it costs and to be careful and prudent with money. There are so many important things like that, that have been neglected. Older kids could make virtual visits to seniors alone in nursing homes for a chat and a laugh together.........so many things in this world need to be learned that are not taught in school.

Teachers could during that time find employment in another field. I have always thought that all education would be improved if our teachers were involved for awhile in retail business.

You asked. That is my fifty cents, sir.

[chet2020]

How is the virus squashed anywhere when it is still all over the world? Not having a current outbreak doesn't mean that the virus is no longer out there.

People who think that this virus is miraculously going to go away because people are wearing homemade masks are engaging in magical, wishful thinking.

Certainly the virus is not squashed worldwide, all any given country can do is worry about themselves. I would call the virus squashed in a country when the population can safely dine-in at restaurants, safely work side by side in offices and factories, and when people arrive from other countries are tested immediately to insure they are not bringing the virus in. Countries like South Korea and New Zealand have done this. They have reached a point where people are not afraid to socialize and go to work. Their economies are functioning at 95% until there is a vaccine or treatment.

We could have spent a few hundred billion to squash the virus here, instead we are slapping band-aids on. We have already spent trillions on emergency aid packages and are no closer to having the virus under control.

[JimJohnson]

I was reading some of the responses and wondered how bad it could be to just forget school and formal education for a year to see if things are better and safer later for teachers and kids. I hear arguments that children forget what they learned over summer, but I don't know. I remember my high school French and some really useless higher math and I graduated in '57. Perhaps they could be taught to be helpful keeping the home clean or seeing how it is to plant vegetables and fruit to eat, or even planting flowers and tending them. I mowed the yard with an old fashioned no motor lawn mower and we had a hill in front. It was HOT in July. High school kids could be taught how to run a home and how much it costs and to be careful and prudent with money. There are so many important things like that, that have been neglected. Older kids could make virtual visits to seniors alone in nursing homes for a chat and a laugh together.........so many things in this world need to be learned that are not taught in school.

Teachers could during that time find employment in another field. I have always thought that all education would be improved if our teachers were involved for awhile in retail business.

You asked. That is my fifty cents, sir.

And wonderfully stated. You carried me back to my own childhood. :bigbow:

[GoodLife]

I too was interested in how the Swedish approach would work out. Not well, as it turns out.

Hmmm Sweden's stats look much better when you compare them to this list of top ten death rates in the World.

Countries and US states with highest death rates per million

1. New Jersey 1757 deaths per million
2. New York 1665
3. Connecticut 1220
4. Massachusetts 1206
5. Rhode Island 921
6. Belgium 853
7. DC 805
8. Louisiana 733
9. United Kingdom 659
10. Michigan 632

So 5 US States have the very worst death rates per million in the world. US States have 7 of the highest death rates in the world. I included District of Columbia because they keep their own stats and made their own policies about lockdown etc. Those 7 states combine for a total of 71,351 covid 19 deaths, which is 52% of all covid 19 deaths in USA. 52% of deaths and only 16% of total population.

[Schaumburger]

I am an actively employed 25-year middle school teacher and a part-time online AP world history teacher in Hawaii researching retirement options, maybe early retirement. I can personally attest educators want to see their kids in the classroom. Most teachers teach because it is important work, not for the salary. Online instruction does not work for every student. Motivated, intelligent students do well. If a student has special needs, lacks support at home, is homeless, and/or lacks motivation, online learning can be challenging. Online instruction takes more time to prepare than face-to-face instruction and many teachers had to be trained because it is different. Many teachers had to teach from home while their own kids were at home competing with computer use, just as any working parent had to do. Nothing beats face-to-face instruction. Parents depend on schools being open so they can go to work. Kids need to socialize with each other. It is not healthy being in front of a screen most of the day. Safety is a huge issue.

We plan on rotating students in secondary schools. We will split the classes - one group attends Mon. and Wed., the other group attends on Tues. and Thurs. When one group is at school, the other half are online. Friday is for students who have special needs or need other interventions, IEP meetings, etc. We do not have the physical space for social distancing. Our class sizes have always been too large. We do not have enough personnel. We have always had a teaching shortage, especially in Hawaii. Believe me, there are not enough people who want to substitute teach, let alone choose a teaching career. We do not have enough resources. I purchase my own disinfectant, tissues, and other supplies yearly and will no doubt increase that this year. Schools are germy Petri dishes. We require 6-foot distancing and masks at stores, but aren't our kids and teachers important too? What happens if, no when, a teacher gets sick and is out for a minimum of 2 weeks? What happens when teachers and students bring the virus home to an at-risk family member? Our COVID numbers are low in Hawaii - totaling approximately 1,100 in the entire state, 19 deaths. The numbers will go up when the 14-day travel quarantine is lifted and tourists from the hot spots visit. I hope to teach 2-5 more years until I retire - hopefully to the Villages. My husband is healthy but had a kidney transplant. He is staying with his 93-year-old mom on the mainland. I suggested he stay there until we have a vaccine because I do not want to risk his health when I return to school in 3 weeks. Be safe everyone. I am praying for a vaccine, it's our only solution right now as opposed to survival of the fittest. Sorry this is so long but thought you may want to hear a working teacher's perspective.

Mahalo for your insightful post. This upcoming school year is going to be challenging for all -- students, parents, teachers, principals, administrators, administrative support staff, bus drivers, cafeteria workers and custodial staff. You are all going into uncharted territory, and I hope all of you can stay safe and healthy.

[Marvic 1]

Life threatening right now. How could anyone send their child into a crowded room under these circumstances?
This would be child abuse and WILL cause some children to die. One child dying is too many. Stop this insanity and listen to the medical and scientific experts. Wait for a vaccine before endangering the lives of children.

Thanks you for your Typical Talking Points.... Nothing but Scare Tactics - "WILL cause some children to die".... :ohdear:

[Marvic 1]

Leave it up to parents, educators and health officials --NOT to politicians who care only about reelection!

Parents - Since when are they experts to stop OTHER children from learning!
Educators - Run by Unions who decides for them!
Health Official - Clueless!

[Gulfcoast]

Certainly the virus is not squashed worldwide, all any given country can do is worry about themselves. I would call the virus squashed in a country when the population can safely dine-in at restaurants, safely work side by side in offices and factories, and when people arrive from other countries are tested immediately to insure they are not bringing the virus in. Countries like South Korea and New Zealand have done this. They have reached a point where people are not afraid to socialize and go to work. Their economies are functioning at 95% until there is a vaccine or treatment.

We could have spent a few hundred billion to squash the virus here, instead we are slapping band-aids on. We have already spent trillions on emergency aid packages and are no closer to having the virus under control.

You can't contain what you don't even know you have. The virus was widespread before we even knew what we were looking at. What happened in March was hysteria. The hysteria has led to some bizarre health mandates like putting COVID-19 positive patients in with vulnerable elderly residents of LtCs, hospital procedures were put into place to prevent the spread to healthcare workers but those same procedures led to deadly delays in treatment. There was that loud cry for ventilators and when they were provided, suddenly they weren't needed anymore.

After months of doing our part to socially isolate and flatten the curve - businesses shut down, professional sports seasons ended, no concerts, bars, casinos, elective medical procedures cancelled or postponed indefinitely, schools and college campuses shut down, gyms, restaurants, salons shuttered, DMV closed....after months of this, we finally start to cautiously reopen only to have massive crowds of protesters, some wearing masks, some not wearing masks allowed to swarm the cities.....

So, now, after just seeing our 4th of July celebrations cancelled, we are being scolded for not doing enough to prevent the spread....it's just this perpetual blame game that just will not end.

The cure is worse than the disease.

[JoMar]

You can't contain what you don't even know you have. The virus was widespread before we even knew what we were looking at. What happened in March was hysteria. The hysteria has led to some bizarre health mandates like putting COVID-19 positive patients in with vulnerable elderly residents of LtCs, hospital procedures were put into place to prevent the spread to healthcare workers but those same procedures led to deadly delays in treatment. There was that loud cry for ventilators and when they were provided, suddenly they weren't needed anymore.

After months of doing our part to socially isolate and flatten the curve - businesses shut down, professional sports seasons ended, no concerts, bars, casinos, elective medical procedures cancelled or postponed indefinitely, schools and college campuses shut down, gyms, restaurants, salons shuttered, DMV closed....after months of this, we finally start to cautiously reopen only to have massive crowds of protesters, some wearing masks, some not wearing masks allowed to swarm the cities.....

So, now, after just seeing our 4th of July celebrations cancelled, we are being scolded for not doing enough to prevent the spread....it's just this perpetual blame game that just will not end.

The cure is worse than the disease.

Only if neither you, your family or those that are close to you don't get sick. When they do you and you see how bad it can be, you might think otherwise. We don't get to see how devastating it can be, only what the mild cases are or what we read. As with everything, nothing is a big deal until it impacts you.

[Gulfcoast]

Only if neither you, your family or those that are close to you don't get sick. When they do you and you see how bad it can be, you might think otherwise. We don't get to see how devastating it can be, only what the mild cases are or what we read. As with everything, nothing is a big deal until it impacts you.

Life comes with risks. If I spent my days obsessively worrying about things that could go wrong I would never allow my teenager to drive or swim in the ocean.

A month or so ago, I was driving home one day when a bolt of lightning came out of a gray cloud hovering up above and struck the ground (Boom!) right next to my car. It was wild and it was freaky. But I haven't stopped going outside because of it.

[JimJohnson]

Thanks you for your Typical Talking Points.... Nothing but Scare Tactics - "WILL cause some children to die".... :ohdear:

That is NOT a talking point. That is a fact known by anyone with normal grey matter.:pray:

[Gulfcoast]

Child drowning deaths have gone up significantly in the state of Florida ever since the virus restrictions were put into place. Most of the deaths are happening in swimming pools.

[Nucky]

Last year in our Oldest Grandson's School children were coming down with terrible respiratory problems. It was Mold. The school was CLOSED until repairs could be made and the children recovered. They eventually all returned and it happened again. They were sent to a different school with a split shift. It worked out fine.

I re-vote for homeschooling until we have a better vaccination some time down the road. If everybody's life is so important nowadays why risk children and the adult who teach and the administrators?

The people who are calling the shots should set an example by simulating themselves as students for two weeks and let's see what happens to them? Let them be the test units.

[Stu from NYC]

Had a conversation with our daughter who lives with our gandchildren 6 and 9.

They go to an excellent charter school in DC.

She thought the education the kids got last spring was not as good as live classroom instruction.

Talking to several teaches and it turns out they are deathly afraid of returning to the classrooms.

Our youngest is going into 1st grade. How does teacher socially distance herself from the younger ones?

[coffeebean]

Certainly the virus is not squashed worldwide, all any given country can do is worry about themselves. I would call the virus squashed in a country when the population can safely dine-in at restaurants, safely work side by side in offices and factories, and when people arrive from other countries are tested immediately to insure they are not bringing the virus in. Countries like South Korea and New Zealand have done this. They have reached a point where people are not afraid to socialize and go to work. Their economies are functioning at 95% until there is a vaccine or treatment.

We could have spent a few hundred billion to squash the virus here, instead we are slapping band-aids on. We have already spent trillions on emergency aid packages and are no closer to having the virus under control.

We shut down our economy with lock downs and our country is in worse shape now with this virus than we were when the lock downs were first mandated. I can not believe this has happened to the most powerful country in the world. What is wrong with this picture?

We have too many people who are denying this pandemic, including our government.

[Gulfcoast]

Had a conversation with our daughter who lives with our gandchildren 6 and 9.

They go to an excellent charter school in DC.

She thought the education the kids got last spring was not as good as live classroom instruction.

Talking to several teaches and it turns out they are deathly afraid of returning to the classrooms.

Our youngest is going into 1st grade. How does teacher socially distance herself from the younger ones?

They won't be able to maintain strict social distancing in the schools, it's not going to happen. Those who feel that the risk is too great to return to the classroom should home school their kids or do distance learning from the safety of home.

If there is a demand for distance learning there will be distance learning teaching jobs.

Healthy kids are getting together now and seeing their friends and they aren't wearing masks when they do it.

[coffeebean]

They won't be able to maintain strict social distancing in the schools, it's not going to happen. Those who feel that the risk is too great to return to the classroom should home school their kids or do distance learning from the safety of home.

If there is a demand for distance learning there will be distance learning teaching jobs.

Healthy kids are getting together now and seeing their friends and they aren't wearing masks when they do it.

Who is to blame? Certainly not the children. The blame lies with the parents. Those parents should be setting a good example to protect their children by wearing masks and making sure their children wear masks. Then the children will feel it is a good practice to wear masks when having close contact with their friends.

[Gulfcoast]

Who is to blame? Certainly not the children. The blame lies with the parents. Those parents should be setting a good example to protect their children by wearing masks and making sure their children wear masks. Then the children will feel it is a good practice to wear masks when having close contact with their friends.

The reality is that healthy kids are very low risk of getting sick. People aren't being callous when they let their kids play with their friends and teens/20 somethings aren't mean for wanting to have a social life. You can't expect young people to stop dating and falling in love. It's a natural and normal stage of life for them.

From what I've seen they are being careful bringing their kids around high risk people. They love their grandparents and don't want to see them get sick.

[GoodLife]

That is NOT a talking point. That is a fact known by anyone with normal grey matter.:pray:

Sweden never closed their schools, zero deaths of school children from 1-19 years old.

[Bucco]

We shut down our economy with lock downs and our country is in worse shape now with this virus than we were when the lock downs were first mandated. I can not believe this has happened to the most powerful country in the world. What is wrong with this picture?

We have too many people who are denying this pandemic, including our government.

One persons opinion...

1. We knew of the possibilities of this virus in January, early February. We, the country did nothing at all. The response to questions was simply that it is nothing, yet we know now that experts were telling a different story.

2. There is zero coordination in information for the public. One person says this, another disputes it. Leaders say one thing today, and the complete opposite the next. We have never, and still do not have “that voice of reason” to calm the country. We are all left to our own devices.

3. Even with the recent spike, we are getting mixed messages. We are told the experts (long time experts) do not know what they are saying, and we are told to trust the politicians.

4. Now our most valuable asset, our children have become a center piece of yet another tug of war.

We are rudderless...it’s that simple

[GoodLife]

1. We knew of the possibilities of this virus in January, early February. We, the country did nothing at all. The response to questions was simply that it is nothing, yet we know now that experts were telling a different story.

January 21. Fauci: This is not a major threat for the people of the United States. And this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about.

Feb 17 Fauci: There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear a mask, the risk is miniscule, people should be more worried about the annual flu.

March 9 Fauci: "If you are a healthy young person, there is no reason if you want to go on a cruise ship, go on a cruise ship...."

[graciegirl]

Sweden never closed their schools, zero deaths of school children from 1-19 years old.

There is a higher risk of serious illness to the teachers, aides and support staff including cafeteria workers and custodians who are precious to a lot of people and those people can spread the illness to seniors who will see one out of ten die if they contract the illness.

In response to GulfCoast, who mentions her/his teenage children and wanting them to be able to swim and drive and take other risks. Younger families are not as dangerously at risk of death as people who live here in The Villages. Many children have been visiting their grandparents here and could be carriers. Still younger people are experiencing some manifestation of the virus that are very worrisome, such as excessive clotting, causing strokes in young adults and skin rashes and congestion that can become quite serious. Long lasting damage to the lungs is also something that happens to younger people. The experts have really not had the time to assess all of the different ways this new corona virus damages the human body.

Many of us who live here in The Villages have had friends be hospitalized in the ICU and have lost friends to the virus. It is real and it is dangerous to seniors.

[Northwoods]

There was an excellent segment on NBC News about children returning to school. NBC talked to 5 leading pediatricians from across the country and ALL said they would send their children back to school. Here's the story:
5 pediatricians on the safety of schools amid pandemic (https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/5-pediatricians-on-the-safety-of-schools-amid-pandemic-87569477784)

[GoodLife]

There is a higher risk of serious illness to the teachers, aides and support staff including cafeteria workers and custodians who are precious to a lot of people and those people can spread the illness to seniors who will see one out of ten die if they contract the illness.

It's not 1 out of 10 seniors who die, according to CDC its 1.3 per 100. I have told you this several times.

Sweden also provided data on number of teachers who tested positive. The numbers are miniscule

85208

[graciegirl]

It's not 1 out of 10 seniors who die, according to CDC its 1.3 per 100. I have told you this several times.

Sweden also provided data on number of teachers who tested positive. The numbers are miniscule

85208
New statistics say 7.8% of 80 year olds will die if they are diagnosed with Covid-19.

Coronavirus death rate: The latest estimate, explained - Vox (https://www.vox.com/2020/3/5/21165973/coronavirus-death-rate-explained)

[graciegirl]

From WebMD.
"COVID-19 Death and Hospitalization Rates
The new analysis confirms earlier studies showing that both rates of death and hospitalization vary by age and increase with age. Children are least likely to die, with death rates in confirmed cases of less than 1% in newborns to 9-year-olds. That rose to 4.28% in people 70 and older, and to 7.8% in people 80 years and above.

While 11.8% of infected people in their 60s were estimated to have symptoms severe enough to need to be hospitalized, 16.6% of those in their 70s did. By age 80, 18.4% needed to be hospitalized."
"

[GoodLife]

Of seniors who are sick with Covid-19, the death rate is ten percent. (Sorry, Eight percent.)

These are the Infection Fatality Rates straight from the CDC website

0-49 years: 0.0005
50-64 years: 0.002
65+ years: 0.013
Overall: 0.004

Maybe someone should tell them they are wrong. :)

[Nucky]

Can you imagine a young child catching this B.S. and not being able to be comforted by a Parent or Adult in the hospital? Forget the numbers. Keep them at home. Which is worse homeschooling or an experience like that?

[mtdjed]

What is your personal opinion on schools opening? Is it safe for children? Teachers? Staff? Will it further spread Covid-19? How safe/dangerous is it?

My opinion is that it is not my opinion that counts. The way our country is organized is that I have ceded my opinion to the Government by the election process. Relative to schools , that decision rests with the local , state and, federal government .

[Gulfcoast]

There is a higher risk of serious illness to the teachers, aides and support staff including cafeteria workers and custodians who are precious to a lot of people and those people can spread the illness to seniors who will see one out of ten die if they contract the illness.

In response to GulfCoast, who mentions her/his teenage children and wanting them to be able to swim and drive and take other risks. Younger families are not as dangerously at risk of death as people who live here in The Villages. Many children have been visiting their grandparents here and could be carriers. Still younger people are experiencing some manifestation of the virus that are very worrisome, such as excessive clotting, causing strokes in young adults and skin rashes and congestion that can become quite serious. Long lasting damage to the lungs is also something that happens to younger people. The experts have really not had the time to assess all of the different ways this new corona virus damages the human body.

Many of us who live here in The Villages have had friends be hospitalized in the ICU and have lost friends to the virus. It is real and it is dangerous to seniors.

I totally understand what you're saying, TV is a higher risk demographic than a neighborhood filled with school children is. Obviously, grandparents would have to use their judgement and it might be that visits with the grandchildren will have to be kept to a minimum while school in session UNLESS the children are distance learning/homeschooling or otherwise socially isolating.

I, myself, am within the age range of people living in TV, I just happen to have one still in HS and another in college. Not quite ready to make the move, yet, but I'm starting the research. Thankfully, there seems to be some promising treatments for this virus being discussed. This might be the answer we have all been praying for!

[JimJohnson]

Is it possible one child could die if the schools are opened before a cure or vaccine is introduced? I feel very strong that until we are positive no child could possibly die, the it is a vile comment to say “open the schools”.

[Northwoods]

Is it possible one child could die if the schools are opened before a cure or vaccine is introduced? I feel very strong that until we are positive no child could possibly die, the it is a vile comment to say “open the schools”.

Every day, eight children aged 14 or younger in the US drown. Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.
So I have to assume based on you comment that you don't believe any child should be allowed to go in the water (or any pool). Because my guess is (and I could be wrong), that more children die from drowning than COVID-19.
So if one child could die.... we need to banish that in the school system.
If a child died playing on the playground... we can't open schools. If I child died because he ate something he was allergic to at lunch... we can't open schools.
Am I following you correctly?

[Gulfcoast]

Every day, eight children aged 14 or younger in the US drown. Drowning ranks fifth among the leading causes of unintentional injury death in the United States.
So I have to assume based on you comment that you don't believe any child should be allowed to go in the water (or any pool). Because my guess is (and I could be wrong), that more children die from drowning than COVID-19.
So if one child could die.... we need to banish that in the school system.
If a child died playing on the playground... we can't open schools. If I child died because he ate something he was allergic to at lunch... we can't open schools.
Am I following you correctly?

The number of drowning deaths for kids in Florida actually doubled once the Coronavirus stay at home orders went into place. Most of the drownings appear to be taking place in pools.

[chet2020]

Hmmm Sweden's stats look much better when you compare them to this list of top ten death rates in the World.

Countries and US states with highest death rates per million

1. New Jersey 1757 deaths per million
2. New York 1665
3. Connecticut 1220
4. Massachusetts 1206
5. Rhode Island 921
6. Belgium 853
7. DC 805
8. Louisiana 733
9. United Kingdom 659
10. Michigan 632

So 5 US States have the very worst death rates per million in the world. US States have 7 of the highest death rates in the world. I included District of Columbia because they keep their own stats and made their own policies about lockdown etc. Those 7 states combine for a total of 71,351 covid 19 deaths, which is 52% of all covid 19 deaths in USA. 52% of deaths and only 16% of total population.

Here, let me summarize this data for you, death rate per 100K population:

Sweden 54.27 #8 in the world
U.S. 41.33 #10 in the world

But you're right, the Federal response to the virus in the U.S. has been abysmal, and we're advancing up the charts (our number was 40.7 when I posted two days ago, Sweden's was 54.0).

[Xxmax@aol.com]

Some teacher’s union want charter school abolished . Seems like they have a different agenda then the safety

Of children

[Travelhunter]

Maybe you should take your own advice and listen to actual doctors and experts.

Which ones?
Some experts masks others no mask
Some educational facilities open others closed
Experts? Please proved your sources

[WVB#1]

Is it possible one child could die if the schools are opened before a cure or vaccine is introduced? I feel very strong that until we are positive no child could possibly die, the it is a vile comment to say “open the schools”.
So do you seriously think no one will die from talking the vaccine? That would be a first.

[GoodLife]

Here, let me summarize this data for you, death rate per 100K population:

Sweden 54.27 #8 in the world
U.S. 41.33 #10 in the world

But you're right, the Federal response to the virus in the U.S. has been abysmal, and we're advancing up the charts (our number was 40.7 when I posted two days ago, Sweden's was 54.0).

The States direct their own response to the pandemic. For instance, the 4 states with the highest death rates in the world NY, NJ, CT and MA all decided to force covid 19 positives into nursing homes. Federal government had nothing to do with it.

We have what's called a Republic.

[Stu from NYC]

The States direct their own response to the pandemic. For instance, the 4 states with the highest death rates in the world NY, NJ, CT and MA all decided to force covid 19 positives into nursing homes. Federal government had nothing to do with it.

We have what's called a Republic.

Some people do not understand our system of govt and with what is being taught today lots will not.

[valuemkt]

Wall Street Journal Editorial Staff this Morning - July 14 2020
The case for Re-Opening Schools - the first two paragraphs -

Everything else about the coronavirus has become politicized in America, so why not a return to school as well? That’s the depressing state of play as President Trump pushes schools to reopen while Democrats heed teachers unions that demand more federal money and even then may not return. The losers, as ever, would be the children.

***
The evidence—scientific, health and economic—argues overwhelmingly for schools to open in the fall. Start with the relative immunity of young children to the disease, which should reassure parents.

[Villagerjjm]

Yes it is safe, many European countries have already done so without problems. Studies show children tend to not infect adults much at all, it is adults who infect children

CDC death totals per age group. As this chart shows, people under 24 years old are much more likely to die of other causes than from covid 19. Like 1000 times more likely. Under 24 deaths from Covid = 171 Under 24 deaths from other causes = 22,214

Let's keep everything shut down forever because someone might die. :22yikes:

85146

So... what you are saying is it is fine to sacrifice a couple hundred children as long as they are allowed to attend school??

[Villagerjjm]

Sweden kept its schools open for children 16 and under. Keeping schools open, despite coronavirus, worked in Sweden - Axios (https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-schools-sweden-denmark-5ff88c81-67e3-4c33-8b74-fe57b9555827.html)

It did NOT work for Sweden. Sweden is rapidly backtracking on the way that COVID-19 was handled. Sweden is saying they made a great miscalculation and regret most of the decisions that were made.

[Villagerjjm]

Wall Street Journal Editorial Staff this Morning - July 14 2020
The case for Re-Opening Schools - the first two paragraphs -

Everything else about the coronavirus has become politicized in America, so why not a return to school as well? That’s the depressing state of play as President Trump pushes schools to reopen while Democrats heed teachers unions that demand more federal money and even then may not return. The losers, as ever, would be the children.

***
The evidence—scientific, health and economic—argues overwhelmingly for schools to open in the fall. Start with the relative immunity of young children to the disease, which should reassure parents.

Children do not have resistance to COVID-19. Children were pulled out of the schools in the spring BEFORE COVID-19 took hold. It is much different now, and the children will suffer from the stupidity and negligence of adults (WHO ARE NOT THEIR PARENTS !).

[valuemkt]

Villagerjim, I'd like to agree with you .. But then we would both be wrong ..

Children belong in school. If you want to hide in your house, that is your decision.
Children need the education and socialization during their formative years. Isolation is not a strategy.

[Bay Kid]

Every year my kids went back to school they would catch colds. Kids spread germs. Teachers are scared they might get sick. Maybe by November this virus will be better?

[GoodLife]

It did NOT work for Sweden. Sweden is rapidly backtracking on the way that COVID-19 was handled. Sweden is saying they made a great miscalculation and regret most of the decisions that were made.

I guess you missed the study I posted up thread. Sweden kept their schools open, not one student under 19 years old died from covid. ZERO

[Travelhunter]

These are the Infection Fatality Rates straight from the CDC website

0-49 years: 0.0005
50-64 years: 0.002
65+ years: 0.013
Overall: 0.004

Maybe someone should tell them they are wrong. :)
Not sure where your info came from but here is the chart June from the CDC
Coronavirus: COVID Deaths in U.S. by Age, Race | American Council on Science and Health (https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/06/23/coronavirus-covid-deaths-us-age-race-14863)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

In states that weren't affected by the virus at all, I think it should be fine to re-open.

In states where there was minimal effect from the start to the present, I think it should be fine to re-open.

In states where there was significant effect from the start, but has seen significant continual reduction in the past 6 weeks, I'd think it should be fine to re-open with some restrictions - such as all kids and teachers have to wear masks, kids must stay in their seats which are spaced so that no kid is more than 3 feet closer to another kid (if they're wearing masks AND distancing 3 feet that should suffice), single-file in hallways, no activities involving any kid touching another during recess or physical education (so no football, softball/baseball, no volleyball, no tag races, etc). No schools should open unless they have a dedicated FULL-time nursing staff. In some parts of the country that are severely underfunded, the nurses are only there part time, and there's only one who moves from school to school on shifts.

In states where there's been a significant case load of positives and deaths, and there has been either no significant reduction OR an increase over the past 6 weeks, I'd say they're not even ready to *plan* a reopening, let alone actually do it.

[chet2020]

The States direct their own response to the pandemic. For instance, the 4 states with the highest death rates in the world NY, NJ, CT and MA all decided to force covid 19 positives into nursing homes. Federal government had nothing to do with it.

We have what's called a Republic.

A pandemic is a threat to national security, the feds should be highly involved. They have resources like the CDC and NIH that states cannot replicate. This Republic of ours could hardly be handling this crisis any worse.