Paying Buyer versus Lender Title Insurance

[Knighterrant]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.

[Stu from NYC]

My understanding is that in Florida the seller must pay for the title insurance covering the buyer.

[Velvet]

Google:
In Florida, an Owner's Title Insurance Policy is typically paid for by the seller, however, these fees can be negotiated in a sales contract. If the seller pays for the owner's title policy it is also typical for the seller to select the title agency.


When I, Velvet, bought my house the seller paid title insurance (resale home) which says they are in position to sell their house in the first place. They chose the agency, Freedom Title. I chose not to have buyer’s title insurance. But I had no mortgage. I’ll get my title insurance when I am selling.

If you are being pushed to do these things be prepared to walk away. It’s your money. You decide what you pay for. There are so many similar homes in TV you’ll find another one, or a better one.

[retiredguy123]

Very confusing. If you agreed to pay for a buyer's title insurance policy, I would shop around and find a title insurance policy and get a price. If you are paying for it, you should have the right to select the insurance company. I would refuse to pay for any title insurance policy required by the lender. But, I would never have agreed to pay for a buyer's or lender's policy in the first place.

[retiredguy123]

My understanding is that in Florida the seller must pay for the title insurance covering the buyer.
When I bought my house from The Villages, the buyer's title insurance policy was optional, and I paid for it. A got a letter from The Villages giving me the option to buy the policy or to decline it. It says that I could either write a separate check to the title company or they could include the amount in my payment at the closing. But, I definitely paid for the insurance policy. Some buyers decide not to buy a policy. You may be thinking about the cost to search the title and to deliver a clear title to the buyer, but that is not a title insurance policy.

[retiredguy123]

Google:
In Florida, an Owner's Title Insurance Policy is typically paid for by the seller, however, these fees can be negotiated in a sales contract. If the seller pays for the owner's title policy it is also typical for the seller to select the title agency.


When I, Velvet, bought my house the seller paid title insurance (resale home) which says they are in position to sell their house in the first place. They chose the agency, Freedom Title. I chose not to have buyer’s title insurance. But I had no mortgage. I’ll get my title insurance when I am selling.

If you are being pushed to do these things be prepared to walk away. It’s your money. You decide what you pay for. There are so many similar homes in TV you’ll find another one, or a better one.
I think you are confusing title "insurance" with a title "search". A buyer's title insurance policy is a lifetime policy that will protect the buyer/owner for as long as he/she owns the property. You can make a claim against the policy years after you bought the property. But, if the title company who handles the closing makes a mistake and doesn't deliver a clear title to you, your only recourse is to sue them, if you don't buy a title insurance policy. But the insurance policy is optional, and some buyers do not buy a policy. But who pays for it on the settlement papers is irrelevant. As a seller, I would never agree to pay for the buyer's title insurance.

[Velvet]

Possibly, the seller had to show they clearly owned title to sell the house. And there were no liens against the property. It sounded like insurance as I was protected against any past claims.

[manaboutown]

You might want to check with a couple other title companies to see how they would handle it based on the language in your contract of sale. If they would do the same thing that is what it is although to me a buyer's policy is a buyer's policy and a lender's policy is a lender's policy. Also it seems to me that just about everything is handled a little differently in The Villages.

Practices vary from state to state but except in Sarasota County in Florida the seller customarily chooses the title company and pays for the buyer's title policy.

Not that is is likely to be a concern for the OP but title insurance companies do go out of business every once in a while. I owned several commercial properties in Albuquerque, NM when the title insurance company I had used to close became an issue to my lender, not the bank mentioned in this article, but another. The bank holding my mortgages insisted I reinsure every single property with a new policy which I did. It was unexpected and expensive but necessary. Big whoop! I got the reissue rate. Title Insurers''' Low Reserves Stir Worry - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/09/business/title-insurers-low-reserves-stir-worry.html)

[EileenK]

You are right that that is the FL. However, TV makes their own rules.

[jbrown132]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.
What I have never understood about any of this is that when buying a home you pay the attorney to do a title search. So when you go to sell the home if they find a problem with the title shouldn’t the attorney who did the original search be liable to make the title good. To me this is just a money making scheme.

[mikeritz53]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.

I am a Realtor and never had that issue. Both Title Insurances are listed as a Buyers cost abnd then the Lenders Title is listed as a credit, so it washes out the Lenders Title. This has to be done when doing a Mortgage. If it is a Cash Deal then it is just listed as a Credit. Possibly your Lender is not familiar with Florida as to this process. I know I was not coming from doing Mortgages in NYS.

[rjgnj321]

Owners Title Policy is typically paid by a Seller on a pre-owned home in most counties in Florida. It insures clear title to the buyer of the property. Lenders Title Insurance insures the Buyers Lender of Clear Title and is the responsibility of the borrower or buyer and not the seller.

[retiredguy123]

What I have never understood about any of this is that when buying a home you pay the attorney to do a title search. So when you go to sell the home if they find a problem with the title shouldn’t the attorney who did the original search be liable to make the title good. To me this is just a money making scheme.
You are correct that the attorney who does the title search is liable, but you would need to hire another attorney to sue the title seach attorney. Good luck with that. If you have a title insurance policy, you just file a claim against the policy like you would with homeowners insurance. But, it is a money making scheme, like homeowners and auto insurance. A title insurance policy is only paid for once, and it covers you for life, unlike homeowners and auto insurance that you need to pay for year after year.

[Tsalla Apopka]

It's a contract - Florida can say what must be paid but the two parties to the contract can specify who pays. Standard contracts can either be signed or changed.
Complaining on the internet won't change anything - just negotiation will.

[DLJ1657]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.

Many closing expenses and actions are negotiable between buyer and seller. Once you have a breakdown of what the Owner policy cost is, and the Lender policy cost is, tell the realtor you want there to be an adjustment on the closing statement from the seller to you of the Owner policy cost.

[Dlbonivich]

Actually these amounts are not a standard anywhere. Law does not mandate who pays what in the contract. In The Villages with MLS agents, seller pays for clear title and provides a title policy and buyer pays a policy to the lender. Do not know how your contract is worded. You need to be discussing this with your agent, that is what you are paying commissions for, their expertise and help. Andrea Bonivich, Sellstate Superior Realty

[tsmall22204]

Why did your attorney not handle this?

[Rosie1950]

What I have never understood about any of this is that when buying a home you pay the attorney to do a title search. So when you go to sell the home if they find a problem with the title shouldn’t the attorney who did the original search be liable to make the title good. To me this is just a money making scheme.

I have always felt this way too.
In Florida ANY work being done on a property MUST 1) be licensed and 2) place a lien on the property until final inspection of the work and paid in full. Contractors cannot pull a permit unless they are licensed.
That being said the Builders are responsible to pay the subcontractors, so there would be many liens on a property.
Obviously we have to PAY lawyers for shoddy work they might do, the lawyers are paid to make sure there a no incumbencies on-the property.
Raise your hand if you feel like paying for shoddy work. Everyone here KNOWS not to pay for any work to your property until you are satisfied and the work has been inspected.
Maybe the law should require the contractors AND lawyers place liens on their own property to protect people from shoddy work.
Then again WHO protects us from the inspectors? The Builders in the Villages do not care about pride in workmanship. If they did there would be really no need for these home warranties.
I looked a new home during open house in Pine Ridge, the cabinet doors were QUITE obviously not hung straight, when I said something to the agent his response was “that’s what warranties are for”. I asked if this home had been inspected. That’s when I found out, the inspectors only look at codes not shoddy work.
COME ON MAN!!!!!!!

[newgirl]

Title companies are the biggest rip off in the real estate business( and easiest moneymaker) but , sadly are always going to be. Everything is done differently in The Villages then anywhere else I have ever sold real estate . The things done here would have fined or put me in jail in other places had I done them.

[nn0wheremann]

Hire a lawyer. Money well spent.

[LianneMigiano]

We are closing next MON and have the same issue.

[Mayrath]

This gobblygook is what keeps politicians and lawyers in business

[Villages Kahuna]

The Villages owns all three firms you’re dealing with — the Villages brokerage, the bank and the title company. You have next to no chance in prevailing with your argument. They set the rules.

[KRM0614]

Nope. You don’t have to pay buyers title insurance. Don’t listen to TV they dot represent you. Find a real estate attorney.

[pete525]

Negative. Everything is negotiable. My last properties (2) I refused to pay for someone else's title insurance. It doesn't make sense to me to do so. Why should I insure someone else's purchase? Hasn't the lender checked title for any encumbrances?
Everything is negotiable; there is no law stating otherwise.

My understanding is that in Florida the seller must pay for the title insurance covering the buyer.

[Marshaw]

Usually it is predetermined who pays for that. If a buyer's market usually the seller pays if seller the reverse.

[Velvet]

The Villages owns all three firms you’re dealing with — the Villages brokerage, the bank and the title company. You have next to no chance in prevailing with your argument. They set the rules.

Not necessarily, they can set terms but if they are not what I want they don’t get my money. On the other hand, one also needs to be reasonable. I write what I understand and what I am agreeing to on both the sales agreement and the title company’s papers. This way we both understand what we are talking about. Not being a lawyer I have to use my own words to indicate what I think I am signing. It worked out well. I have no trouble with dealing with any Villages department. They have all been very fair to me.

[wamley]

I believe all three entities involved are owned by TV - The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

[kens613]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.

There is two forms of title insurance: Owners Title Policy which insures the property and is normally paid for by the Seller and a mortgage title policy which insures the mortgage for the Buyers Lending institution which is the Buyers cost.. Plain and simple !!

[yankygrl]

I am closing on selling my house with TV. The sales contract states that the seller will pay for the buyer’s title insurance. And that the buyer will pay for the lender’s title insurance.

I have received my closing disclosure, and the disclosure identifies the seller (me) paying for both buyer’s and lender’s title insurance. I questioned the title company regarding this, and the title company assured me that both amounts identified on the disclosure were actually buyer’s title insurance.

The title company stated that they have to identify the buyer’s title insurance in two different amounts and on two different lines on the disclosure form. The smaller amount is identified as “buyer’s title insurance” and the larger amount is identified as “lender’s title insurance”.

I provided the title company with the sales contract showing that the buyer is to pay lender’s title insurance. I am only to pay for the buyer’s title insurance. The title company stated that both amounts were my responsibility, and the title company has to identify a portion of the buyer’s title insurance as “lender’s title insurance” due to government standards.

The sales company is TV. The buyer’s lender is Citizens First. And the title company is Peninsula Land and Title.

I have discussed this with some others, two of whom have sold houses in TV (one within the last month). And both have had similar experiences. One seller had to close and paid both fees. The other seller refused to close the transaction - this transaction ultimately closed with the realtor reimbursing the fees to the seller to facilitate the closing. I fall into the category of having to close.

I Searched TOTV, and did not see any other posts referencing this issue. Given my discussions have identified two additional people, I’m curious to learn if there are others with similar experiences.
Have you check with a bank NOT owed by TV? Also might be wise to ask an outside licensed realtor if they know answer. April at Freedom ReMax is very knowledgeable.

[jimhurtt@twc.com]

What I have never understood about any of this is that when buying a home you pay the attorney to do a title search. So when you go to sell the home if they find a problem with the title shouldn’t the attorney who did the original search be liable to make the title good. To me this is just a money making scheme.
Just adding to your comment of money making add-ons to buying a house, one of the worst is a mortgage company requiring a buyer to buy mortgage insurance to protect the lender against the buyer defaulting on the loan. This is added to the monthly payments for the life of the loan. How they get away with these things is criminal.

[retiredguy123]

Just adding to your comment of money making add-ons to buying a house, one of the worst is a mortgage company requiring a buyer to buy mortgage insurance to protect the lender against the buyer defaulting on the loan. This is added to the monthly payments for the life of the loan. How they get away with these things is criminal.
If you make a 20 percent down payment, you don't need to pay mortgage insurance. I think that should be the minimum standard requirement to buy a house. Buying mortgage insurance should not even be an option.

[JerseyShore]

You are correct that the attorney who does the title search is liable, but you would need to hire another attorney to sue the title seach attorney. Good luck with that. If you have a title insurance policy, you just file a claim against the policy like you would with homeowners insurance. But, it is a money making scheme, like homeowners and auto insurance. A title insurance policy is only paid for once, and it covers you for life, unlike homeowners and auto insurance that you need to pay for year after year.
Typically, you cannot sue the person who did the title search. The law is that a title search is not performed for the home owner. Rather, it is performed for the title company so that they can decide what to insure. If there is an issue with your title, the remedy is to then file a claim under your title policy. Most states do not recognize a cause of action for a “negligent title search”. You can get around this by ordering an abstract of title - which can be more expensive than a standard title search.