No more Star Spangled Banner

[Northwoods]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

[Taltarzac725]

Going way too far. George Washington had slaves I believe. So do they change all the uses of Washington in the United States? George Washington and slavery - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery)

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

[Stu from NYC]

I sure would not go to any game where they would not play our anthem.

Judge people according to the times they lived in not our time.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I for one wouldn't miss it. It's a poorly-written song that is very difficult for most people to sing on key. It's not even a good poem. I'd love to see something new. I don't care who wrote it, it doesn't offend me in the least. It's just a bad song and I'd really hate to think that after over 200 years, that's the best we could do.

[Bikeracer2009]

I agree with orangeblossombaby. When I lived in NOVA I worked near the Pentagon and some of my employees worked inside the Pentagon. The area was very patriotic but also very diverse. I would like to see a more inclusive feel to our national anthem so everyone of all races feel it's their country too. Change is a scary thing but it doesn't have to be. The diversity I experienced gave me what I needed to feel good about change.

[Polar Bear]

I agree with orangeblossombaby. When I lived in NOVA I worked near the Pentagon and some of my employees worked inside the Pentagon. The area was very patriotic but also very diverse. I would like to see a more inclusive feel to our national anthem so everyone of all races feel it's their country too. Change is a scary thing but it doesn't have to be. The diversity I experienced gave me what I needed to feel good about change.
Agree to disagree. Extreme unnecessary change is a scary thing and it should be. Implementation of our country's founding principles has not been perfect, obviously. But the principles are sound and apply to all citizens. I value traditions that celebrate them.

[Mrprez]

I think the next thing that should go is this whole cancel "culture".

[Joanne19335]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

It will NEVER happen!

[MandoMan]

I agree with orangeblossombaby. When I lived in NOVA I worked near the Pentagon and some of my employees worked inside the Pentagon. The area was very patriotic but also very diverse. I would like to see a more inclusive feel to our national anthem so everyone of all races feel it's their country too. Change is a scary thing but it doesn't have to be. The diversity I experienced gave me what I needed to feel good about change.

Like this one? “Red, Brown, yellow, black, and white, all are precious in his sight.” Oh, wait, establishment of religion is not allowed.
Jesus Loves the Little Children (with Lyrics) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/cg6W76q6a2E)

[Mardarlowe]

A nice rap song would be nice before the game. Instead of taking our hats off, we could just turn them sideways.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I agree with orangeblossombaby. When I lived in NOVA I worked near the Pentagon and some of my employees worked inside the Pentagon. The area was very patriotic but also very diverse. I would like to see a more inclusive feel to our national anthem so everyone of all races feel it's their country too. Change is a scary thing but it doesn't have to be. The diversity I experienced gave me what I needed to feel good about change.

What exactly about the Star Spangled Banner is not inclusive? Why would any citizen of this country not feel that it's their country as well. Read up on the story of the Star Spangled Banner.

There is nothing remotely racist, sexist or exclusionary about it. It is about fortitude and strength. It is about how a group of people defending our country refused to give up. It is about the strength of the United States of America. All Americans should feel proud of this great country. We're not perfect and there have been some mistakes, but the good overwhelms the bad by a huge margin.

Battle of Fort McHenry Facts & Summary | American Battlefield Trust (https://www.battlefields.org/learn/war-1812/battles/fort-mchenry?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9b_4BRCMARIsADMUIyqPHvcv4VE1 KQK2j0cDkvJ1bT974J4L4O2LkJ7ENAlil9t4FcKYEkoaAs9ZEA Lw_wcB)

[camaguey48]

This is the most ridiculous and nefarious idea I have ever heard. I came to America seeking freedom and I found it, but I am afraid our freedoms are being eroded by those who want to destroy her. We cannot allow these elements to destroy our beautiful country.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves-Edward R. Murrow.

[George Page]

All are free to move to a country with an anthem they find more to their liking.

[Nazdad]

Ok let’s stop and composes a new national anthem So what do we do when a new group does not like that one. Come on folks history is the past so you can study it and not make the same mistakes. Whites and blacks were slave owners. when is the majority going to stop being silent

[2mnydogs]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)
Someone needs to apply the brakes to this runaway train.

[Dana1963]

How many verses? are sung ONLY ONE.
There are four verses three are not sung or played at sporting events.
The first documented time that we know the song was played at a sporting event is in 1862 in Brooklyn. But the thing is, you had to hire a band. That was expensive, so it was only for special occasions - opening day, holidays - up until the time of World War II, where sound systems come in, so they could play a recording. And thus, they started to play it before every game.
In the 1950s, the Baltimore Orioles, of all teams, decided that playing "The Banner" before every game cheapened its impact. The general manager at the time decided that he was going to only play it during special occasions.

The Chicago Cubs owner felt the same way. And he did not play "The Banner" before every game until the '60s, during the Vietnam War. And even in the 1960s, the Chicago White Sox experimented with substituting "God Bless America."
Page Not Found : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2016/09/04/492)

[GaryKoca]

If they replaced it with God Bless America, that would be just fine with me. Frankly, a much better song about America than the Star Spangled Banner, and much easier to sing. The range is manageable.

[DavidnJeannie]

Enough is enough; when is all this craziness going to stop!

[JanetMM]

The Star Spangled Banner Was never my favorite patriotic song. Have heard it destroyed by too many people! Yep, it’s that hard to sing. But, we have songs like:

You’re A Grand Old Flag
This Land is Your Land
My Country ‘Tis of Thee
America the Beautiful

These are stirring and say something great about the country and they won’t be torn to shreds every time they are sung.

[davem4616]

I agree with orangeblossombaby. When I lived in NOVA I worked near the Pentagon and some of my employees worked inside the Pentagon. The area was very patriotic but also very diverse. I would like to see a more inclusive feel to our national anthem so everyone of all races feel it's their country too. Change is a scary thing but it doesn't have to be. The diversity I experienced gave me what I needed to feel good about change.



I just don't get it....people from around the world come to the United States to escape the BS and lack of opportunity in their own country, then they take exception that the USA is different from their former homeland HELLO?

what's with these folks....

They need to assimilate vs. looking at it as just a change of venue, where they can vent their anger that they had to leave their former homeland

To those that say that it's too difficult of a song for them to sing...just speak the words, it's not that difficult...

[The Caretaker]

Ok you were not a slave your mother and grandmother Were not a slave. GET OVER IT. if our flag insults you move out of this country!!!
Sick of this crap.

[Bay Kid]

We should learn from Venezuela....

[airdale2]

When the feds runs out of money best to prepare for them to require all pension funds to be merged into S.S.I. so that they can redistribute it.

[Bikeracer2009]

I couldn't be more disgusted with any place I've lived in.

The writer of the Star Spangled Banner was a wealthy slave owner and reading his life's story is stomach churning. How can any black person know this man's history and the story behind this song and not be upset?

As far as celebrating traditions is concerned, the song wasn't made our nation anthem until 1931. Hold on to those cherished traditions though, it's too scary to think about changing things to suit the blacks.

From the third verse of “The Star-Spangled Banner”:

No refuge could save the hireling & slave/

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:/

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave/

O’er the land of the free & the home of the brave.

This verse is hardly ever sung anymore and I can't imagine a black person singing it with the same pride as the white folks here at the villages.

I would spend more time on this subject but it would be a waste of my time.

[Martian]

Interesting thread - as a side note, I think this is an excellent example of "conservative" vs "progressive".

Conservatives tend to want to "conserve" things. Historically those things were traditions, culture, religion, etc. The belief (in general) being that traditional values are time tested and worth preserving.

Progressives, on the other hand, want to make changes. It is generally believed by progressives that "we can do better". And while some traditions may be good, some may also be bad.

Sorry for the segue, it just seems we see these types of discussions spring up on almost every topic.

Having volunteered for and served in the Marines, I like to believe I am a very patriotic American. And to me, being patriotic means I want to make America as great as it is possible for it to be. And to do that, I personally believe that righting wrongs and making positive changes is the right thing to do.

But, I can certainly understand why many feel the changes we are experiencing are too much too fast.

Wouldn't it be great if we could discuss things intelligently rather than just jumping straight to "the other guys are trying to destroy our country"...

[robinsdw2]

Hey folks, when we ,if ever, can start attending games again I will not be in attendance without the National Anthem.

[Stu from NYC]

What exactly about the Star Spangled Banner is not inclusive? Why would any citizen of this country not feel that it's their country as well. Read up on the story of the Star Spangled Banner.

There is nothing remotely racist, sexist or exclusionary about it. It is about fortitude and strength. It is about how a group of people defending our country refused to give up. It is about the strength of the United States of America. All Americans should feel proud of this great country. We're not perfect and there have been some mistakes, but the good overwhelms the bad by a huge margin.

Battle of Fort McHenry Facts & Summary | American Battlefield Trust (https://www.battlefields.org/learn/war-1812/battles/fort-mchenry?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9b_4BRCMARIsADMUIyqPHvcv4VE1 KQK2j0cDkvJ1bT974J4L4O2LkJ7ENAlil9t4FcKYEkoaAs9ZEA Lw_wcB)



Well said thank you

[Manhoopty]

A song would be establishing religion?

[Windguy]

I’m all for moving monuments to traitors out of places of honor and putting them in places of context like museums where they are used to tell the story of how divisiveness (like we are experiencing now) can almost destroy a country. But, people of history lived in a world different than we do and just because they behaved in a way that was considered normal at the time doesn’t mean that we should no longer appreciate their contributions. If we did that then we would have no one left to honor. There’s a huge difference between a traitor who attacked our nation and someone who was just a bigot.

That being said, the Star Spangled Banner makes a terrible national anthem for the above-cited reasons. My favorite patriotic song is “This land is your land” by Woodie Guthrie, which talks about the beauty of our country and how it is for all of us. I think it’s perfect.

[WesMan]

Ok you were not a slave your mother and grandmother Were not a slave. GET OVER IT. if our flag insults you move out of this country!!!
Sick of this crap.
You are correct, Thanks!!!

[Polar Bear]

...I want to make America as great as it is possible for it to be. And to do that, I personally believe that righting wrongs and making positive changes is the right thing to do.

But, I can certainly understand why many feel the changes we are experiencing are too much too fast...
Sums up my feelings pretty well.

[Juliebythesea]

It's an awful song it should go

[billethkid]

So one wacko "reporter" in LA gets a bug up his/her a$$ about the national anthem and it get national attention!?!?!?

Who said the media is not leading the discussion!

People who have nothing invested in the core values do not care much about anything other than their participation in a given agenda/organization.

We are fast losing site of what it is that truly makes up America. It is being redefined by special interest, minority and political agenda. The very concept of "we the people" is under attack.

The concept of those in elected positions are the "representatives" of we the people is all but lost in the current special interest cancel culture movement.

The silent/ignored majority can ill afford to stand idly by while this degradation of our country continues.

We have long passed by the not in my backyard hence no big deal. What is happening is obviously under way, yes, here in our back yard. Many of the posts here on TOTV attest to that.

All this divisive partisan/minority/special interest BS will come to an end after the election and after the virus vaccine is in use.

Too many people with nothing to do.....and more and more politicians figuring how to pay them for doing nothing.

[ronharvey2]

I have always thought it was not a good song for our national anthem. Not because of any issues other than the fact the major theme is war and people dying. It sends the wrong message to the world. Why not "America the Beautiful" or something else with a positive theme instead of death and destruction?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What exactly about the Star Spangled Banner is not inclusive? Why would any citizen of this country not feel that it's their country as well. Read up on the story of the Star Spangled Banner.

There is nothing remotely racist, sexist or exclusionary about it.

This is only inclusionary if blacks are slaves, and not free people:

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

That's the third verse of the song. Bold underlined emphasis mine.

In 1931 when this song was made the official anthem, another song was being considered: My Country 'Tis of Thee. It was a new set of lyrics applied to the British anthem, "God Save the Queen." This seems to me SO much more profound and significant, than the lyrics -or- the melody of the anthem we have now. It has more meaning: we were formed from settlers who left Britain in protest of England's religious restrictions. So My Country 'Tis of Thee is a serious statement: "We came here to get away from you, and we are in a much better place now."

Unless of course you don't feel that we are in a better place now, in which case - might want to see if England will let you back in, during the pandemic.

[Caruso9]

REALLY!!! Change the National Anthem. Nothing was said all these years, not we have to bow down to the terrorist group, BLM. If we do this, this country is gone.

[17362]

Ridiculous.
Next they will say our constitution was written by slave owners so our constitution has to be getting rid of.
Perhaps that is their goal all along.
This is all just plain ridiculous

[jammendolia]

Ok let’s stop and composes a new national anthem So what do we do when a new group does not like that one. Come on folks history is the past so you can study it and not make the same mistakes. Whites and blacks were slave owners. when is the majority going to stop being silent
The majority will stop being silent in November

[LowOnCash]

This is a total waste of time News Flash you can't eraser the past and there is nothing wrong with the past. If not for slavery there would be no blacks in the USA nor would we have had a black president. Lets Move On!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

REALLY!!! Change the National Anthem. Nothing was said all these years, not we have to bow down to the terrorist group, BLM. If we do this, this country is gone.

Things were said "all these years." But no one in authority ever listened. This is nothing new. It's just being brought to your attention via internet media, which most people actually participate in.

That's the ridiculous thing about ALL of these issues. The only reason most people don't believe they were issues in the past, is that the internet didn't exist in the past. Cell phones didn't exist in the past. The ability to transport information from one part of the world to another part in a single second didn't exist in the past.

Now, we have instant access to live-stream videos of things that are happening, without having to be in front of our TV sets to see them. So now, we are seeing issues that have ALWAYS been issues, but that some people have not noticed because they were watching the wrong channel at the time, or reading the wrong newspaper at the time.

[Martian]

Things were said "all these years." But no one in authority ever listened. This is nothing new. It's just being brought to your attention via internet media, which most people actually participate in.

That's the ridiculous thing about ALL of these issues. The only reason most people don't believe they were issues in the past, is that the internet didn't exist in the past. Cell phones didn't exist in the past. The ability to transport information from one part of the world to another part in a single second didn't exist in the past.

Now, we have instant access to live-stream videos of things that are happening, without having to be in front of our TV sets to see them. So now, we are seeing issues that have ALWAYS been issues, but that some people have not noticed because they were watching the wrong channel at the time, or reading the wrong newspaper at the time.

Pretty much agree with this statement. I have for years felt that people are suffering from information overload. At some point, I just turn off. I can't deal with all the news.

[Dust Bunny]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

It was fashionable in those days to own slaves. Just like cigarettes was fashionable in the 1930's. Now you are looked down upon if you smoke. Cigarettes were in C rations during WWII. Every Hollywood Actor smoked including women. Times have changed. Grow up people! Everyone is looking under every rock and tree to find something they can say offends them. Well, the BLM offends me! They are anarchists' trying to rewrite history.

[Martian]

It was fashionable in those days to own slaves. Just like cigarettes was fashionable in the 1930's. Now you are looked down upon if you smoke. Cigarettes were in C rations during WWII. Every Hollywood Actor smoked including women. Times have changed. Grow up people! Everyone is looking under every rock and tree to find something they can say offends them. Well, the BLM offends me! They are anarchists' trying to rewrite history.

I agree with most of your post, but why the gross generalization about BLM? Do you know for a fact that every BLM member is an anarchist? That would be like me saying every White person is a racist.

[justjim]

Slowly but truly we (United States of America) seem to be on a path to destroy our country from within. History tells us that it’s not the enemy from the outside but ourselves that allows a society to topple. We better get off this path soon.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Pretty much agree with this statement. I have for years felt that people are suffering from information overload. At some point, I just turn off. I can't deal with all the news.

I've paid attention to the issues since college (in the late 1970's/early 1980's). I wasn't involved in Civics, but I went to school for print journalism so civics was a very important and required aspect of my education. I sat in on court cases in the state house and wrote articles for class, had to do a huge 10-page report using all the rules of investigative journalism as a final exam, had to meet politicians and interview them, went to Washington DC as part of a class trip and met with my Senator and Congressman, had a personal guide from my Senator through the underground tunnels to the Department of Commerce, where my cousin was the assistant deputy press secretary for Ronald Reagan.

My school's population was comprised of a majority of LGBTQ+ people - including the staff. Minorities were the majority. I was the minority white straight girl. I was exposed to "different" and learned that we all breathe the same air, and we all want to be loved, and we all have love to give, no matter what physical attributes or preference in life-mates makes us look different from each other.

I was exposed to "different" for decades. So perhaps that is why I have the perception I have. People who spent their lives in somewhat isolated parts of rural or semi-rural America didn't have that exposure. So "other" might seem intimidating.

Our country isn't about a singular war with bombs bursting in air, or a piece of cloth hanging from a pole. That isn't what our country is about. It never was about that. Our country is about "other." We were founded by "other." People from England who protested their own mandates and regulations and official state religions - wanted out, because they knew their own country would not allow it to change. So they came here - because this was where they could BE "different" and have a chance for survival.

THAT is what our country was created for. THAT is the purpose of America.

Until this concept is embraced and accepted, our country will not succeed. We are still in the learning process. This, this "what song will represent us?" is one lesson that we are still learning. It's a bump in the road, a symbol of transition.

[billethkid]

Things were said "all these years." But no one in authority ever listened. This is nothing new. It's just being brought to your attention via internet media, which most people actually participate in.

That's the ridiculous thing about ALL of these issues. The only reason most people don't believe they were issues in the past, is that the internet didn't exist in the past. Cell phones didn't exist in the past. The ability to transport information from one part of the world to another part in a single second didn't exist in the past.

Now, we have instant access to live-stream videos of things that are happening, without having to be in front of our TV sets to see them. So now, we are seeing issues that have ALWAYS been issues, but that some people have not noticed because they were watching the wrong channel at the time, or reading the wrong newspaper at the time.

I suppose the very best and glaring example is nothing being done when we had a black president......AND control of the house and senate......... wonder why this current outcry went without incident then when the very same issues....every single one were present!

[Kenswing]

I think it's a beautiful song..

[Shyer]

🤬🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺� ��🇺🇸

[harrisimard]

I think all this Change to America is B.S.. We have always been proud to be Americans . those statues they are tearing down are our History, like it or not it is what it is. History is just that History. The way things are going America won't be a place anyone will want to live in. Why can't they look at those statues and think, We've come a long way baby, but they are acting like wild animals with all the rioting and looting , they should be ashamed. if they don't like America as we have known it for the past 200 years they obviously don't belong here. I have never been predjudice but the way they are acting is something to be Proud Of??? I for one want the America we grew up with, everyone getting along, what is happening is a real Shame and I'm glad I'm Old and still remember when we were proud to be American. We saluted the flag in school every morning and would Never think of NOT stand for the National Anthym. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Luisa]

Going way too far. George Washington had slaves I believe. So do they change all the uses of Washington in the United States? George Washington and slavery - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery)
Anything having to do with black people should be removed or not allowed because they had slaves in Africa.

[cherylncliff]

I sure would not go to any game where they would not play our anthem.

Judge people according to the times they lived in not our time.

The times we live in are hopefully a more understanding, diverse and inclusive time. Perhaps it is time to update our National Anthem to be inclusive of all. Also note that the music is originally a British song. Perhaps we should also get an American composer.

[fdpaq0580]

How sad that the attempt to justify The Star Spangled Banner as a racist song is based on one word (which ignores the accompanying word "hireling", which would include anyone who had to work for a living) one word in one sentence in the third verse of a song, taken out of context. How sad indeed.
The Star Spangled Banner is a difficult song to sing. The third verse is almost never sung , only the first verse. So, why not keep the song and, officially strike the questionable third verse? Since the rest of the world recognizes the melody as our anthem, it is easiest solution, imho.
Truth be known, I have always thought America The Beautiful was a better song. However, I never considered changing the national anthem just because I thought there might have been better choices.
I lived through the Watts riots, the era of Equal Opportunity that required quotas in school admissions and hiring regardless of qualification. I thought advancement in race relations was moving forward in the same way that immigrant language skills advance with greater exposure to others. Now, it seems I was wrong.
I am reminded of a movie from 1969, "Putney Swope", that reminds me a lot like what is going on now. For those unfamiliar with the movie, a brief description follows.
A major ad firm has one "token" black man on the board of directors. The chairman dies. The vote for the new chairman does not go as expected. Unable to vote for themselves, each member decides to secretly cast a token vote for Putney Swope. New chairman Putney addresses the board stating "I won't rock the boat, I intend to tip the boat over". All the whites are fired except one "token" white. Chaos ensues until the business goes up in flames at the hands of Putney's more radical followers.
Sounds kind of like what is going on now. An attempt to "turn the boat over".
I am 100% in favor of fair and equal and respectful treatment for all. But it must apply to everyone or it applies to no one. Change should be peaceful and lawful and with respect from all sides. Violence causes the divide to worsen.
Someone said "follow the money". Beyond me.. Who is funding the violence and the destruction of history? BLM, Russia, China, the Taliban, some other group? I don't know.

Stay well. Stay safe. Peace!

[Two Bills]

This is what a National Anthem should sound like!

GOOSEBUMPS! Wales fans deliver incredible rendition of the national anthem - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=ZwdZOHm8r-Y)

[Number 10 GI]

If they replaced it with God Bless America, that would be just fine with me. Frankly, a much better song about America than the Star Spangled Banner, and much easier to sing. The range is manageable.

That won't work, the atheists will object to God and scream about the separation of church and state.

[fdpaq0580]

I couldn't be more disgusted with any place I've lived in.

The writer of the Star Spangled Banner was a wealthy slave owner and reading his life's story is stomach churning. How can any black person know this man's history and the story behind this song and not be upset?

As far as celebrating traditions is concerned, the song wasn't made our nation anthem until 1931. Hold on to those cherished traditions though, it's too scary to think about changing things to suit the blacks.

From the third verse of “The Star-Spangled Banner”:

No refuge could save the hireling & slave/

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:/

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave/

O’er the land of the free & the home of the brave.

This verse is hardly ever sung anymore and I can't imagine a black person singing it with the same pride as the white folks here at the villages.

I would spend more time on this subject but it would be a waste of my time.

Just a thought as I re-read the verse.
I came away with a different interpretation of the meaning.
"No refuge could save the hireling and slave" to me refers to the British, who used mercenaries (hirelings) and those pressed (forced against their will, ie: slaves) into service for the crown. I read it that way since the "hirelings and slaves" are running scared, and in the next few lines"and the Star Spangled Banner in triumph doth wave".
Accepted or not accepted is ,imho, is a result of being able or willing to understand the context/circumstances of the times in which those things happened.
You can't change history, you can only try to hide it by destroying the evidence. Kind of like what extremists and radicals in other parts of the world try to do by destroying ancient temples and educational materials that show us the truth of history.
Just another and more reasonable and likely interpretation, imho. Think about it and don't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit the narrative you want.

Stay well. Stay safe. Peace!

[Topspinmo]

IMO National anthem and sporting event have nothing in common. IMO athletes are NOT hero’s who gave their life for country and freedom for others. They Just play game and wantabee’s fans praise them like there royalty.

[New Adventures]

This is the most ridiculous and nefarious idea I have ever heard. I came to America seeking freedom and I found it, but I am afraid our freedoms are being eroded by those who want to destroy her. We cannot allow these elements to destroy our beautiful country.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves-Edward R. Murrow.

I guess we won't be singing "White Christmas" anymore.

:ohdear:

[Nucky]

Unbelievable! I'm not taking the bait! Leave it alone. Simple.

[mabreyjk]

If things weren't so seriously askew; I would say, "Let's end this clownery." However it is not clownery, it is lunacy. When and where does it stop? For God's sake, removing the John Wayne exhibit at USC (my alma mater) and renaming the airport! Hmm, what about the Jefferson Memorial, Washington Monument, the White House, and the University of Virginia? Destroy them? What was said cannot be unsaid and what was done, was done. No matter is done, the past cannot be undone.

What is past is prologue", inscribed on Future (1935, Robert Aitken) located on the northeast corner of the National Archives Building in Washington, DC

[Byte1]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

Just goes to show you that there are those that are afraid of the truth and have to "disappear" it. Personally, I do not care if it bothers them. They weren't slaves and should be down on their knees every day, kissing the ground and thanking GOD for allowing them to live in such a great country. The BEST country in the world.

If being patriotic bothers some, I will play that proverbial tiny fiddle for them. If the truth and history bothers them, then instead of attempting to erase it, they should be using it as an example for change. Get rid of history and no one will have to feel guilty about anything that happened in the past. No proof of slavery, means no slavery. No racist leader statues, then no proof of racism. Get rid of the flag and no proof of what this country has gone through. Burn the history books, Hello USSA.

[Byte1]

The times we live in are hopefully a more understanding, diverse and inclusive time. Perhaps it is time to update our National Anthem to be inclusive of all. Also note that the music is originally a British song. Perhaps we should also get an American composer.

WHY?

Will you change your lifestyle and religious beliefs if a couple of people think you should? If the majority are fine with something, why should we change our beliefs and lifestyle to coddle a small group of disgruntled and ungrateful folks that have probably been spoiled all their lives? Sorry, but that song has not offended anyone for the last hundred years or whenever it became popular. I do not see why we must destroy street signs, songs, movies, monuments, currency, statues, flags, language, etc. just because it is in vogue today.
Since we are laying it all out this year, I am offended when I see folks displaying Mexican flags or those fake African flags in OUR country. I think displaying the Confederate Battle flag to be stupid, but that is just my opinion. I also believe that we live in a FREE country and if someone wishes to express themselves, we are supposed to treat everyone equally.
If living in "diverse times" means anarchy and allowing abhorrent behavior then this does not prove that we are a country of Freedom and equality. It means we are a country that allows a group of folks to run amok under the guise of civil discourse, when the fact is that some just wish to destroy what makes this country great, law abiding citizenry.
There is NO "systemic racism" in America. That is a LIE that is parroted continuously by the media in hopes to generate dissension and chaos in hopes of inventing news stories instead of just reporting real news.

[Byte1]

Anything having to do with black people should be removed or not allowed because they had slaves in Africa.

And one of the FIRST slave owners in America was a BLACK man. :boom:

[Soxman]

[QUOTE=Dr Winston O Boogie jr;1803865]What exactly about the Star Spangled Banner is not inclusive? Why would any citizen of this country not feel that it's their country as well. Read up on the story of the Star Spangled Banner.

There is nothing remotely racist, sexist or exclusionary about it. It is about fortitude and strength. It is about how a group of people defending our country refused to give up. It is about the strength of the United States of America. All Americans should feel proud of this great country. We're not perfect and there have been some mistakes, but the good overwhelms the bad by a huge margin.


You are absolutely right. There is nothing racist about the National Anthem. Leave it alone. Stop trying to pander to the mobs.

[Byte1]

I agree with most of your post, but why the gross generalization about BLM? Do you know for a fact that every BLM member is an anarchist? That would be like me saying every White person is a racist.

Wasn't it BLM that marched and chanted "pigs in a blanket. fry'em like bacon?" I find it acceptable to disapprove of one bad COP, but the other million law enforcement officers do not deserve the bad rap. In my opinion, BLM would have much more credibility if they turned against the infiltrators that are rioting and destroying property, .....not just saying they are against them. Besides, BLM should not be doing all this during the pandemic. All they are doing is making folks that might have been sympathetic to their cause, turn against them. If this would have been Occupy Wall Street doing the protesting, it would have been squashed by now and everyone knows it. Lets face it, this is an election year and this is a minority group so no one is going to put a stop to it.

[Hancie2]

Always thought that America or God Bless America should have been our anthems.

[jimjamuser]

A nice rap song would be nice before the game. Instead of taking our hats off, we could just turn them sideways.
That WAS funny!

[jimjamuser]

The Star Spangled Banner Was never my favorite patriotic song. Have heard it destroyed by too many people! Yep, it’s that hard to sing. But, we have songs like:

You’re A Grand Old Flag
This Land is Your Land
My Country ‘Tis of Thee
America the Beautiful

These are stirring and say something great about the country and they won’t be torn to shreds every time they are sung.
I vote for, "This land etc".

[jimjamuser]

So one wacko "reporter" in LA gets a bug up his/her a$$ about the national anthem and it get national attention!?!?!?

Who said the media is not leading the discussion!

People who have nothing invested in the core values do not care much about anything other than their participation in a given agenda/organization.

We are fast losing site of what it is that truly makes up America. It is being redefined by special interest, minority and political agenda. The very concept of "we the people" is under attack.

The concept of those in elected positions are the "representatives" of we the people is all but lost in the current special interest cancel culture movement.

The silent/ignored majority can ill afford to stand idly by while this degradation of our country continues.

We have long passed by the not in my backyard hence no big deal. What is happening is obviously under way, yes, here in our back yard. Many of the posts here on TOTV attest to that.

All this divisive partisan/minority/special interest BS will come to an end after the election and after the virus vaccine is in use.

Too many people with nothing to do.....and more and more politicians figuring how to pay them for doing nothing.
If, not when is more accurate with respect to a vaccine.

[jimjamuser]

I've paid attention to the issues since college (in the late 1970's/early 1980's). I wasn't involved in Civics, but I went to school for print journalism so civics was a very important and required aspect of my education. I sat in on court cases in the state house and wrote articles for class, had to do a huge 10-page report using all the rules of investigative journalism as a final exam, had to meet politicians and interview them, went to Washington DC as part of a class trip and met with my Senator and Congressman, had a personal guide from my Senator through the underground tunnels to the Department of Commerce, where my cousin was the assistant deputy press secretary for Ronald Reagan.

My school's population was comprised of a majority of LGBTQ+ people - including the staff. Minorities were the majority. I was the minority white straight girl. I was exposed to "different" and learned that we all breathe the same air, and we all want to be loved, and we all have love to give, no matter what physical attributes or preference in life-mates makes us look different from each other.

I was exposed to "different" for decades. So perhaps that is why I have the perception I have. People who spent their lives in somewhat isolated parts of rural or semi-rural America didn't have that exposure. So "other" might seem intimidating.

Our country isn't about a singular war with bombs bursting in air, or a piece of cloth hanging from a pole. That isn't what our country is about. It never was about that. Our country is about "other." We were founded by "other." People from England who protested their own mandates and regulations and official state religions - wanted out, because they knew their own country would not allow it to change. So they came here - because this was where they could BE "different" and have a chance for survival.

THAT is what our country was created for. THAT is the purpose of America.

Until this concept is embraced and accepted, our country will not succeed. We are still in the learning process. This, this "what song will represent us?" is one lesson that we are still learning. It's a bump in the road, a symbol of transition.
Very impressive.

[jimjamuser]

How sad that the attempt to justify The Star Spangled Banner as a racist song is based on one word (which ignores the accompanying word "hireling", which would include anyone who had to work for a living) one word in one sentence in the third verse of a song, taken out of context. How sad indeed.
The Star Spangled Banner is a difficult song to sing. The third verse is almost never sung , only the first verse. So, why not keep the song and, officially strike the questionable third verse? Since the rest of the world recognizes the melody as our anthem, it is easiest solution, imho.
Truth be known, I have always thought America The Beautiful was a better song. However, I never considered changing the national anthem just because I thought there might have been better choices.
I lived through the Watts riots, the era of Equal Opportunity that required quotas in school admissions and hiring regardless of qualification. I thought advancement in race relations was moving forward in the same way that immigrant language skills advance with greater exposure to others. Now, it seems I was wrong.
I am reminded of a movie from 1969, "Putney Swope", that reminds me a lot like what is going on now. For those unfamiliar with the movie, a brief description follows.
A major ad firm has one "token" black man on the board of directors. The chairman dies. The vote for the new chairman does not go as expected. Unable to vote for themselves, each member decides to secretly cast a token vote for Putney Swope. New chairman Putney addresses the board stating "I won't rock the boat, I intend to tip the boat over". All the whites are fired except one "token" white. Chaos ensues until the business goes up in flames at the hands of Putney's more radical followers.
Sounds kind of like what is going on now. An attempt to "turn the boat over".
I am 100% in favor of fair and equal and respectful treatment for all. But it must apply to everyone or it applies to no one. Change should be peaceful and lawful and with respect from all sides. Violence causes the divide to worsen.
Someone said "follow the money". Beyond me.. Who is funding the violence and the destruction of history? BLM, Russia, China, the Taliban, some other group? I don't know.

Stay well. Stay safe. Peace!
I vote----Russia.

[jimjamuser]

IMO National anthem and sporting event have nothing in common. IMO athletes are NOT hero’s who gave their life for country and freedom for others. They Just play game and wantabee’s fans praise them like there royalty.
The US does overdo hero worship. Wonder if that is tribal as well as worldwide?

[jimjamuser]

Just goes to show you that there are those that are afraid of the truth and have to "disappear" it. Personally, I do not care if it bothers them. They weren't slaves and should be down on their knees every day, kissing the ground and thanking GOD for allowing them to live in such a great country. The BEST country in the world.

If being patriotic bothers some, I will play that proverbial tiny fiddle for them. If the truth and history bothers them, then instead of attempting to erase it, they should be using it as an example for change. Get rid of history and no one will have to feel guilty about anything that happened in the past. No proof of slavery, means no slavery. No racist leader statues, then no proof of racism. Get rid of the flag and no proof of what this country has gone through. Burn the history books, Hello USSA.
If the US IS the best county in the world, why are we around 20th or 30th in world lists of things like "quality of life" and "upward mobility"? We are behind the UK. We were # 1 around 1950 after WW2, not today!

[Byte1]

If the US IS the best county in the world, why are we around 20th or 30th in world lists of things like "quality of life" and "upward mobility"? We are behind the UK. We were # 1 around 1950 after WW2, not today!

It all has to do with opinion. I've been to a lot of countries to live and there is not one that I would rather live in, and none of them have anything that I would use to change this country. I find it amusing if not a bit sad to see spoiled Americans always looking over the fence into that other field for better grass. Sorry, but that field that everyone else wants is OURS. Still the BEST country in the World. I can always tell when someone is ignorant of what is really going on in other countries when it comes to the common man. Most countries have a middle class that is equivalent to our lower class lifestyle. Our welfare recipients live as well as the middle class in many countries, and that is easily proven. There are even studies done that provide insight to that statement. But, all these so called social justice folks think that those that do not produce deserve to have the same lifestyle as those of us that worked for what we have. Why is that?

Nope, in America we have the BEST chance of success, no matter who you are.

[Snowprint]

There’s nothing wrong with having a debate. It’s not being unpatriotic to bring up the bad deeds that are part our history. I, personally, think it’s wrong to condemn someone for being a slave owner when it was a legal and accepted practice, especially since many of our founding fathers were engaged in that peculiar institution. But someone that thinks differently doesn’t threaten me or attack our “freedom.” That’s why America is great, precisely because you can object to past traditions that may be popular. If it was up to the majority, then there wouldn’t be gay marriage, for instance. Despite the wailing and gnashing of the people who claimed that gay marriage was going to “destroy” America, that has proved to be nonsense.
As for there not being systemic racism, that’s just nonsense. This community is full of it, and the proof is seen in the posts that dominate on this site with unending talk about how the “blacks” are going too far, go back to where they came from, etc.
Here’s a clear example from Mississippi. An election supervisor was alarmed that “a lot of Blacks were registering to vote and “people” need to stand up and do something. It’s clear that she doesn’t think “Blacks” qualify to even be considered people. Or Tucker Carlson, surprising no one being on Fox News, is suddenly on vacation after his head writer was discovered to be a racist and misogynistic. You know he’s the guy who said that the Black Lives Matter protesters were going to “be coming for you...”
There’s no reason to be scared of change, like having the disappearance of the Confederate battle flag is probably a good thing. Especially since it only flew for four years, over 150 years ago, and was flown by traitors. The genius of Lincoln was to not punish them, but I doubt he’d approve people celebrating their treason 150 years later. If you don’t think many people fly it because they want everyone to know they don’t like Black people, then I wonder if you’re paying attention. Do you ever wonder why everyone you see with a Confederate battle flag is White?

[kcrazorbackfan]

I think the next thing that should go is this whole cancel "culture".

I totally agree, as should all the “tools” that think it should go away.

[sallybowron]

I sure would not go to any game where they would not play our anthem.

Judge people according to the times they lived in not our time.

I agree

[TomPerrett]

Maybe it’s actually true.
It’s on the internet must be true.
Bonjour

[Brynnie]

If not us, then who?

[Curtisbwp]

It is NOT the statues, the songs, or anything else that has to be erased from our history, it is the America hateing rabble rousers who have to go.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It is NOT the statues, the songs, or anything else that has to be erased from our history, it is the America hateing rabble rousers who have to go.

1. The statues are not part of our history. They are symbolic representations of history that happened long before the statue was ever built.

2. Most people don't know more than the first stanza of the Star Spangled Banner. If it was such a big deal, we ALL would have memorized the entire thing when we were kids. The entire thing wasn't even taught. That is how UNimportant it was, and has always been.

3. The documentation of our history still exists, and is still kept safe in museums and national archives. When was the last time you went to see one? Or have you never bothered?

[JerryLBell]

I for one wouldn't miss it. It's a poorly-written song that is very difficult for most people to sing on key. It's not even a good poem. I'd love to see something new. I don't care who wrote it, it doesn't offend me in the least. It's just a bad song and I'd really hate to think that after over 200 years, that's the best we could do.
I've heard a number of people over the years complain that this was the national anthem instead of "America The Beautiful" or even "This Land Is Your Land". I know I can't carry a tune with a bucket and parts of "The Star Spangled Banner" are WAY beyond my poor capabilities. And judging from many people I've heard sing it, it was beyond theirs as well.

[OhioBuckeye]

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

Well they better check what bills they have in their bill folds! They better get rid of them. Why doesn't our govt. step up & tell them just don't have soccer games. Can't believe that we're bowing down to these racist blacks! I'm not saying that all black people are bad, some of my very best friends are black. Just can't believe our govt. is so wishy washy or maybe it's our legal system. We'll be communist America in 3 yrs. & our legal system is bowing down to this.

[Bikeracer2009]

In reply to Fdpaq0580

I didn't want to waste my time debating with an old, stuck in the past citizen but I guess I'll waste it anyway.

You say the meaning you come away with is that the slaves were not American slaves and that makes the song ok. American blacks shouldn't mind having this song as their national anthem. You did leave out the verse "From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave". From what I've read, this means that the slave is running scared and they will eventually be killed.

You also state that I'm unable or unwilling to understand the context/circumstances of the times in which those things happened.

You go on to talk about destroying the evidence of history, radicals, extremists destroying temples and educational materials that show the truth of history.

You close by saying you're more reasonable and your interpretation is more likely the truth. You want me to think about it and not to dismiss it because it doesn't fit the narrative.

You think you know me and that I'm too stupid and unwilling to learn the truth as you see it. I'm an extremists and I want to destroy history to fit my narrative.

You got all of this data from my comment that supports black Americans wanting to change the national anthem that was written by a slave owner. A man that spent his life going after blacks and anyone that supported their freedom. A song that in a verse glorifies hunting down and killing slaves.

I wonder how the Jewish feel about anti-semitic songs? I already know that answer, they exist and they hate them. I wonder if they wouldn't mind a national anthem that said "gas all the jews" or "cut their throats". I guess if the song was old then, it's their history and it would be considered "extremists" behavior to object to it. Or, a national anthem written by Hitler that had a verse about killing Jewish people. Even if that verse was not sung anymore I think they would still object to it.

My "narrative" is not defined by you. I don't want to change history, I want to change the present. I don't want to destroy temples or educational materials. I don't see myself as an extremist with radical views. I see myself as a person with compassion for anyone that feels like a second class citizen.

I am willing to change my opinion as the facts come in and grow as a person.

[Northwoods]

1. The statues are not part of our history. They are symbolic representations of history that happened long before the statue was ever built.

2. Most people don't know more than the first stanza of the Star Spangled Banner. If it was such a big deal, we ALL would have memorized the entire thing when we were kids. The entire thing wasn't even taught. That is how UNimportant it was, and has always been.

3. The documentation of our history still exists, and is still kept safe in museums and national archives. When was the last time you went to see one? Or have you never bothered?

Well... I've been to most Smithsonian museums, Battle of Little Big Horn, Holocaust museum in DC, walked the Freedom Traill, etc. Not sure what else... but I may have been there too.

You can't judge history by today's standards. If we do, then we pretty much have to erase every "leader" (political and business) up until about 20 years ago.

Washington, Jefferson, etc. all owned slaves. So we have to change money, tear down the Washington monument and Jefferson memorial. Close Mount Vernon and Monticello.

Do we ignore everything they contributed to our history because they were victims of their time in history?

If I see a statue of Jefferson Davis, I understand his place in history. I don't admire or revere him. But I guess we have to "erase" him.

If so, we also have to erase every business leader up to 20 years ago, because women, minorities and LGBTQ pretty much hit that glass ceiling and weren't promoted to senior positions.

Do we "erase" it? Or do we just understand the positive and negative of what happened in the past?

[nn0wheremann]

I for one wouldn't miss it. It's a poorly-written song that is very difficult for most people to sing on key. It's not even a good poem. I'd love to see something new. I don't care who wrote it, it doesn't offend me in the least. It's just a bad song and I'd really hate to think that after over 200 years, that's the best we could do.
Agreed. How about God Bless America, or better yet, America The Beautiful?

[bpascani]

I have banished NFL years ago. If I choose to go to a college football game, (which I LOVE to do!), if they play anything else... I will be taking a knee, and sing our National Anthem right along, with my hand over my heart, and I will take my small flag out of my purse when I do. I think that's called freedom of speech, which is totally in these days, on many subjects and fronts, yes??

[Nucky]

The Accurate Story Behind the Star Spangled Banner - YouTube (https://youtu.be/6hZe8CPGA1E)

I like this one best. If you don't care for it. Tough Toot's! :boxing2:

[tvbound]

In reply to Fdpaq0580

I didn't want to waste my time debating with an old, stuck in the past citizen but I guess I'll waste it anyway.

You say the meaning you come away with is that the slaves were not American slaves and that makes the song ok. American blacks shouldn't mind having this song as their national anthem. You did leave out the verse "From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave". From what I've read, this means that the slave is running scared and they will eventually be killed.

You also state that I'm unable or unwilling to understand the context/circumstances of the times in which those things happened.

You go on to talk about destroying the evidence of history, radicals, extremists destroying temples and educational materials that show the truth of history.

You close by saying you're more reasonable and your interpretation is more likely the truth. You want me to think about it and not to dismiss it because it doesn't fit the narrative.

You think you know me and that I'm too stupid and unwilling to learn the truth as you see it. I'm an extremists and I want to destroy history to fit my narrative.

You got all of this data from my comment that supports black Americans wanting to change the national anthem that was written by a slave owner. A man that spent his life going after blacks and anyone that supported their freedom. A song that in a verse glorifies hunting down and killing slaves.

I wonder how the Jewish feel about anti-semitic songs? I already know that answer, they exist and they hate them. I wonder if they wouldn't mind a national anthem that said "gas all the jews" or "cut their throats". I guess if the song was old then, it's their history and it would be considered "extremists" behavior to object to it. Or, a national anthem written by Hitler that had a verse about killing Jewish people. Even if that verse was not sung anymore I think they would still object to it.

My "narrative" is not defined by you. I don't want to change history, I want to change the present. I don't want to destroy temples or educational materials. I don't see myself as an extremist with radical views. I see myself as a person with compassion for anyone that feels like a second class citizen.

I am willing to change my opinion as the facts come in and grow as a person.


"A song that in a verse glorifies hunting down and killing slaves."


You are correct. Further research of a missing verse in his poem, also shows what Key thought about slaves and black people.

The Missing Verse of The Star Spangled Banner That May Change Your View Of Our Anthem. - YouTube (/watch?v=LEl9gUOgvZQ)

[fdpaq0580]

In reply to Fdpaq0580

I didn't want to waste my time debating with an old, stuck in the past citizen but I guess I'll waste it anyway.

You say the meaning you come away with is that the slaves were not American slaves and that makes the song ok. American blacks shouldn't mind having this song as their national anthem. You did leave out the verse "From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave". From what I've read, this means that the slave is running scared and they will eventually be killed.

You also state that I'm unable or unwilling to understand the context/circumstances of the times in which those things happened.

You go on to talk about destroying the evidence of history, radicals, extremists destroying temples and educational materials that show the truth of history.

You close by saying you're more reasonable and your interpretation is more likely the truth. You want me to think about it and not to dismiss it because it doesn't fit the narrative.

You think you know me and that I'm too stupid and unwilling to learn the truth as you see it. I'm an extremists and I want to destroy history to fit my narrative.

You got all of this data from my comment that supports black Americans wanting to change the national anthem that was written by a slave owner. A man that spent his life going after blacks and anyone that supported their freedom. A song that in a verse glorifies hunting down and killing slaves.

I wonder how the Jewish feel about anti-semitic songs? I already know that answer, they exist and they hate them. I wonder if they wouldn't mind a national anthem that said "gas all the jews" or "cut their throats". I guess if the song was old then, it's their history and it would be considered "extremists" behavior to object to it. Or, a national anthem written by Hitler that had a verse about killing Jewish people. Even if that verse was not sung anymore I think they would still object to it.

My "narrative" is not defined by you. I don't want to change history, I want to change the present. I don't want to destroy temples or educational materials. I don't see myself as an extremist with radical views. I see myself as a person with compassion for anyone that feels like a second class citizen.

I am willing to change my opinion as the facts come in and grow as a person.

Thank you for wasting your time debating (educating) an old (I am) stuck in the past citizen like me.
You are correct when you say that I don't know you. I just went back and re-read the post that you responded to. It seems that you interpreted my "you can't change history" as "you" specific when it was intended as "you" generic. I was never attacking you personally, and I apologize for not making myself more clear.
As to my alternative interpretation, it was intended to demonstrate that by reading the same thing twice one can sometimes see things from a different perspective and come away with a different meaning.
As it was back in the 1960's and 1970's, this is a another pivotal time for us in this country. We all need to be willing to listen and learn from one another. It is my belief and my hope that someday this will be a nation that includes and values all of its people, a true melting pot where all cultures are celebrated.
As to me not defining your narrative, only you can do that. I also don't want to debate with you. To me a debate is fighting with words. I prefer to discuss. Discussion is an open and honest exchange of thoughts and ideas. You have much to share with others who have had life experiences different from yours. Keep learning and keep teaching.
Your last sentence, "I am willing to change my opinion as the facts come in and grow as a person" really resonated with me. That is how we all should be.

Stay safe. Stay well. Peace!

[Bay Kid]

Isn't the Black National Anthem racists? I know for sure if they played a White National Anthem, which there is none, that would be racist.

[Lindsyburnsy]

Hummm. I won't watch Woody Allen movies because he is a pedophile. With that being said, I feel the SSB is a good song with appropriate, thoughtful lyrics and I would like to believe that in this era, Francis Scott Key wouldn't promote slavery. Changes do need to be made as people become more educated. I don't know the answer. I do know the Confederate Generals lost the war for good reason. They do not need statues in their "honor". I don't remember seeing a "Hitler" statue anywhere in Germany, while I was there.

It looks like the Star Spangled Banner is next. An Op Ed in the LA Times says Francis Scott Key was a slave owner so the song has to go. After all, the statue of Francis Scott Key was toppled by protesters in Golden Gate Park.
Major League Soccer announced that the anthem would not be played before games when its season resumed in July following the coronavirus lockdown. A petition posted on Change.org advocated dropping the song as the national anthem, pointing to “elitist, sexist, and racist” verses in Key’s poem, “Defence of Fort M’Henry,” from which “The Star-Spangled Banner” was adapted.
Here's the Op Ed.
Replace The Star-Spangled Banner with a new national anthem - Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-07-14/national-anthem-star-spangled-banner-lean-on-me)

[fdpaq0580]

"A song that in a verse glorifies hunting down and killing slaves."


You are correct. Further research of a missing verse in his poem, also shows what Key thought about slaves and black people.

The Missing Verse of The Star Spangled Banner That May Change Your View Of Our Anthem. - YouTube (/watch?v=LEl9gUOgvZQ)

Thank you for the link to another view. Although I am generally sceptical of you tube as a good source for information, I was willing to give it a try. Several attempts and all I got "site not available" on my tablet. So, I went to dictionary.com for the forgotten verses and read all the verses. Trying to take what (admittedly) little I remember of the history of those times, I could see , depending on ones perspective, it could be taken either way.
I then went to Intercept.com to see what they had to say. They said that the words "hireling and slave" has been interpreted in both ways, depending on ones perspective. They then go on with further information that "hireling and slave" may have referred to a group of former slaves who joined the British and fought against the Americans, but more likely referred to America slaves and wage earners. They continued with a history of Fancis Scott Key, showing first how he was portrayed in history, followed by another and darker portrayal of him. Key himself never spoke of his poem, thus never explained the actual meaning of his usage of " hireling and slave".
Many artists don't feel the need to explain their work and prefer to let the viewer make their own conclusion. I cannot say for certain that he felt that way, but I can see that, while there seems to be some ambiguity here, if one accepts the darker portrait of Key there would be much evidence to support that he was referring to America slaves and wage earners. I am always open to information in hopes of finding truth and common ground.
So, where do we go from here? Earlier, I had suggested striking all but the first verse so that the anthem that the rest of the world recognizes could still be played at venues like the Olympics. If dumping all but the first verse is not acceptable, what song might you recommend?
What now? I believe further discussion is necessary, by those willing to listen as well as speak, and have the power to actually make the changes.
Again, thanks for the info.

Stay safe. Stay well. Peace!

[donassaid]

It's not about diversity or change. It is about destroying our history and you are willingly being sucked in by this anarchy. So sad.

[tvbound]

Thank you for the link to another view. Although I am generally sceptical of you tube as a good source for information, I was willing to give it a try. Several attempts and all I got "site not available" on my tablet. So, I went to dictionary.com for the forgotten verses and read all the verses. Trying to take what (admittedly) little I remember of the history of those times, I could see , depending on ones perspective, it could be taken either way.
I then went to Intercept.com to see what they had to say. They said that the words "hireling and slave" has been interpreted in both ways, depending on ones perspective. They then go on with further information that "hireling and slave" may have referred to a group of former slaves who joined the British and fought against the Americans, but more likely referred to America slaves and wage earners. They continued with a history of Fancis Scott Key, showing first how he was portrayed in history, followed by another and darker portrayal of him. Key himself never spoke of his poem, thus never explained the actual meaning of his usage of " hireling and slave".
Many artists don't feel the need to explain their work and prefer to let the viewer make their own conclusion. I cannot say for certain that he felt that way, but I can see that, while there seems to be some ambiguity here, if one accepts the darker portrait of Key there would be much evidence to support that he was referring to America slaves and wage earners. I am always open to information in hopes of finding truth and common ground.
So, where do we go from here? Earlier, I had suggested striking all but the first verse so that the anthem that the rest of the world recognizes could still be played at venues like the Olympics. If dumping all but the first verse is not acceptable, what song might you recommend?
What now? I believe further discussion is necessary, by those willing to listen as well as speak, and have the power to actually make the changes.
Again, thanks for the info.

Stay safe. Stay well. Peace!

I'm not sure what happened to the other link, so try this one.

The Missing Verse of The Star Spangled Banner That May Change Your View Of Our Anthem. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEl9gUOgvZQ)

it is from the Thom Hartmann Program.

Sorry about that.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It's not about diversity or change. It is about destroying our history and you are willingly being sucked in by this anarchy. So sad.

There is nothing historic about any of these statues.

Do you know who built them? Do you know anything about them, other than who they represent?

The statues themselves are NOT historical. You could easily remove the statues, and put the explanation plaques down on the ground (as many historic places have), so when people walk by, they can see the plaque and read it if they wish, to know what happened in that spot.

Except in MOST cases - nothing happened in that spot. In MOST cases, the only thing that "happened" in that spot, was that a statue was erected to honor someone who promoted slavery.

It's not that they *had* slaves. It's that they *promoted* slavery, and fought to protect the right to continue owning them. Yes, Washington had slaves. But he didn't use slavery as a campaign promise, he didn't fight over the right to own them. Slavery was not on his political agenda.

Statues that honor slave-promotion heroes don't belong in prominent public places. They shouldn't be destroyed, but they should be in museums, which is where all other artifacts depicting or representing the darker side of humanity belong.

[fdpaq0580]

It's not about diversity or change. It is about destroying our history and you are willingly being sucked in by this anarchy. So sad.

Without mentioning which post you are referring to, I assuming it is mine.
As to being sucked into anarchy, I respectfully disagree.
Just because one wishes to learn something does not automatically change there entire point of view. Take religion for example, just because if I was Christian it and wanted to learn about my Jewish friends Faith does not mean I would covert. Same with trying to understand the anger felt by my friends in other communities.
Therefore, sucked in, I think not. Trying to understand, yes.

Stay safe. Stay well. Peace!

[tvbound]

It's not about diversity or change. It is about destroying our history and you are willingly being sucked in by this anarchy. So sad.

I struggle with understanding this type of thinking. Are there really those that believe that accurate history books, first-hand accounts, scholarly thesis, etc. will magically disappear, should a monument or statue be removed or taken to a different location? If so, that seems to me to be a legitimate basis for condemnation of the education, or more accurately the lack thereof, that those types of people received.

[Bay Kid]

No more history to be taught in schools. Evidently some think America's history isn't correct and offensive. So just teach english, reading, writing, science and math. Especially in college.