17 Times Less Likely to Be Executed? Is It Inequality?

[MandoMan]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

[dewilson58]

Come on! When you post something so irresponsible, you are encouraging clients to drop them and cutting their profits at a tough time and maybe costing people jobs. :ohdear:





(Various state laws impact stats.)

[GoodLife]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

I think the Harvard paper is exhibit A on how to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Besides, I am sure the NYT and Harvard are both against the death penalty anyway.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

They don't reveal this because it would undoubtably reveal reverse racism. More white murderers are executed than black murderers.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

There are charts and graphs and data crunches on all kinds of things. THIS one is exclusively about "murderers executed in the category of the race of the victim."

You can find other charts and graphs and data crunches on "murderers executed in the category of the race of the murderer" online, but this one is not that.

In the very narrow scope of "murderers executed in the category of race of the victim" based on this one singular study - people who kill black people tend to go free significantly more often than people who kill white people.

If you can find a study from a credible source that indicates that murderers of white and black victims are executed equally, or that murderers of black people are executed more often than murderers of white people, I'd love to see the source.

If you're looking at other types of data, well they won't necessarily have anything to do with this type of data. Knowing whether or not (for example) the murderer was wearing a hat at the time of the murder, has nothing to do with the color of his victim.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I think the Harvard paper is exhibit A on how to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Besides, I am sure the NYT and Harvard are both against the death penalty anyway.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

They don't reveal this because it would undoubtably reveal reverse racism. More white murderers are executed than black murderers.

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

[GoodLife]

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

And Blacks kill more per capita than whites

According to 2016 FBI data, black men commit murder 572.8% more than white men. Rapes are committed at a level of 146.1% greater, robbery at 617.9% greater, aggravated assault at 203.3% greater and violent crime in total at 263.6% greater.

[Stu from NYC]

How about we focus on children growing up in two parent households, staying in school to get better jobs and eliminate gangs.

Might be a great way to reduce shootings and lessen police encounters with blacks.

[blueash]

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center (https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/race)

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was

The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.

[billethkid]

one can find a study to match any result/objective favored.
Accuracy is not a given without additional.....study!

For example.....reviewing/studying targets on the side of barns that had an arrow in the bullseye.
What would be the conclusion?
Would those who shoot the arrow into the barn first then paint the bullseye around it be included/concluded?

[MandoMan]

There are charts and graphs and data crunches on all kinds of things. THIS one is exclusively about "murderers executed in the category of the race of the victim."

You can find other charts and graphs and data crunches on "murderers executed in the category of the race of the murderer" online, but this one is not that.

In the very narrow scope of "murderers executed in the category of race of the victim" based on this one singular study - people who kill black people tend to go free significantly more often than people who kill white people.

If you can find a study from a credible source that indicates that murderers of white and black victims are executed equally, or that murderers of black people are executed more often than murderers of white people, I'd love to see the source.

If you're looking at other types of data, well they won't necessarily have anything to do with this type of data. Knowing whether or not (for example) the murderer was wearing a hat at the time of the murder, has nothing to do with the color of his victim.

You seem to misunderstand my point. The “Stop and Frisk” policy was stopped in NYC because most of the people frisked and most of those arrested and most of those imprisoned were African-American, even though they made up a minority of the population. The BLM movement argues that police brutality is mostly against young African-American males. They want equality, which is not for MORE European-Americans to be frisked and arrested and brutalized, but for FEWER African-Americans to be treated that way. That seems like a solid argument, even if one could respond that criminals are being arrested and imprisoned—not innocent people.

But what is the intent of this new study? Is it suggesting that this is another example of the authorities not really caring about African-American victims because if they did, in the name of equality, they would execute 17 times as many murderers of African-Americans in the name of equality? Really? Are they saying that racist juries don’t care enough about African-American lives to sentence more murderers to death? I’m in favor of the death penalty, accomplished quickly and painlessly and inexpensively, for nearly all first degree murderers, but is that really what they are asking for? Most of those executed would be African-Americans. This seems like such a peculiar thing to complain about, given that the Times is opposed to the death penalty.

[MandoMan]

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center (https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/race)

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.



The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.

Sorry. I didn’t make it to the end of the 69 page paper, so I didn’t see those charts. Still, because most people who kill African-Americans are themselves African-Americans, to increase the number executed by 17 times would invariably greatly increase the number of African-Americans executed. It’s a strange argument to make in the light of the BLM movement, though I agree with the idea of more and better policing to make African-American neighborhoods safer. People shouldn’t have to live in fear, even if it’s their neighbors causing the fear.

[blueash]

Sorry. I didn’t make it to the end of the 69 page paper, so I didn’t see those charts. Still, because most people who kill African-Americans are themselves African-Americans, to increase the number executed by 17 times would invariably greatly increase the number of African-Americans executed. It’s a strange argument to make in the light of the BLM movement, though I agree with the idea of more and better policing to make African-American neighborhoods safer. People shouldn’t have to live in fear, even if it’s their neighbors causing the fear.

I am sorry you didn't read to the end of the paper as well. And if you now look at the racial information you will see that even though as you correctly state the overwhelming of black deaths are at the hand of black killers, a very large number of the executions are in cases where the victim was white but the killer was black. How come if most white deaths are caused by whites there are not more white people being executed for killing white people? Oh, systematic racism in the "justice" system might be part of the problem.

You are misunderstanding the point of the authors. The study was done to follow up on an earlier seminal paper looking at imposition of the death penalty in Georgia which showed that black defendants were much more likely to have the death penalty imposed on them especially if they killed a white person. The weakness in the study was not knowing the long term outcome.. how did being sentenced to death relate to actually being executed.

The Supreme Court attempted to address racial inequality in death sentences by saying death could only be imposed if there were aggregating circumstances. This was an attempt to eliminate racial animus in juries or judges sentencing choices. The court has not seriously looked at the outcome of that decision and this paper is addressing how race is still a huge factor in the death penalty and in execution outcome.

[Joe V.]

I am sorry you didn't read to the end of the paper as well. And if you now look at the racial information you will see that even though as you correctly state the overwhelming of black deaths are at the hand of black killers, a very large number of the executions are in cases where the victim was white but the killer was black. How come if most white deaths are caused by whites there are not more white people being executed for killing white people? Oh, systematic racism in the "justice" system might be part of the problem.

You are misunderstanding the point of the authors. The study was done to follow up on an earlier seminal paper looking at imposition of the death penalty in Georgia which showed that black defendants were much more likely to have the death penalty imposed on them especially if they killed a white person. The weakness in the study was not knowing the long term outcome.. how did being sentenced to death relate to actually being executed.

The Supreme Court attempted to address racial inequality in death sentences by saying death could only be imposed if there were aggregating circumstances. This was an attempt to eliminate racial animus in juries or judges sentencing choices. The court has not seriously looked at the outcome of that decision and this paper is addressing how race is still a huge factor in the death penalty and in execution outcome.

///

[GoodLife]

I am sorry you didn't read to the end of the paper as well. And if you now look at the racial information you will see that even though as you correctly state the overwhelming of black deaths are at the hand of black killers, a very large number of the executions are in cases where the victim was white but the killer was black. How come if most white deaths are caused by whites there are not more white people being executed for killing white people? Oh, systematic racism in the "justice" system might be part of the problem.

You are misunderstanding the point of the authors. The study was done to follow up on an earlier seminal paper looking at imposition of the death penalty in Georgia which showed that black defendants were much more likely to have the death penalty imposed on them especially if they killed a white person. The weakness in the study was not knowing the long term outcome.. how did being sentenced to death relate to actually being executed.

The Supreme Court attempted to address racial inequality in death sentences by saying death could only be imposed if there were aggregating circumstances. This was an attempt to eliminate racial animus in juries or judges sentencing choices. The court has not seriously looked at the outcome of that decision and this paper is addressing how race is still a huge factor in the death penalty and in execution outcome.

Know what the biggest factor is? Don't murder people and commit violent crimes. Blacks do this more often per capita than any other race.

Sorry not sorry.

[Stu from NYC]

Know what the biggest factor is? Don't murder people and commit violent crimes. Blacks do this more often per capita than any other race.

Sorry not sorry.

True, black leadership should worry more about one parent families, gang membership and lack of education that makes it hard to earn a good income. Do that and pretty sure crime would plummet.

More of that and think a lot of the racial problems would fade away on its own.

[sunny56]

Number of inmates on death row in the US:

White: 1103; Black: 1089; Latino: 353; Other: 75


In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.

[billethkid]

Number of inmates on death row in the US:

White: 1103; Black: 1089; Latino: 353; Other: 75


In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.

:BigApplause:

[Stu from NYC]

Number of inmates on death row in the US:

White: 1103; Black: 1089; Latino: 353; Other: 75


In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.

But the facts seem very confusing to so many people.

[blueash]

This entire thread is so typical of discussions of race on this and other websites. A story is posted by someone who from reading their past posts would be much more likely be anti - BLM and he hopes to stir up a discussion about race. He doesn't bother to actually read the material and doesn't seem to understand the point of the study or else he is deliberately mistaking the authors' viewpoint.

One anti-BLM poster comes here to make tell us:
Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

They don't reveal this because it would undoubtably [sic] reveal reverse racism. More white murderers are executed than black murderers. [the authors did give the race of killer and victim so your implication is false]

something he thinks is very important about race and murder and that the authors are deliberately withholding data as to present the data would hurt their position.

and that
Don't murder people and commit violent crimes. Blacks do this more often per capita than any other race.

Sorry not sorry.

again to tell us that blacks are criminals and that therefore the justice system has to deal with them in an out of proportional amount.

When it is pointed out that the conclusion of the study is that race, not frequency of crimes, is what is studied and a black death vs a white death is not treated the same by the state of Georgia in the time period examined we are treated to a new set of confused people posting:

In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.


I don't mind be corrected by people who are on topic, but the topic here is not what is the ratio of such crimes. It is how are such crimes punished and you will find a key factor is race. If I used your data and it showed that of the 234 white killers none got the death sentence for killing a black person, but every black person, all 514 who killed a white person was given a death sentence would you tell me that justice is equally applied to black and white? Nope. Of course that is not the rate of sentencing but your data is meaningless to the question addressed in the study which looks at the percentage of death sentences carried out on people who are sentenced to die for killing a white person vs killing a black person.

This paper shows that race plays a role in the administration of the death penalty. It has already been shown to play a role in arrests and convictions. You can all say quit talking about race as it isn't important. Funny how white people say that.

Just today we have two more stories about cops acting all racist against black families in a way that would just not happen if the victims of the police action had been white.

A White State Trooper’s Violent Encounter with Two Black Teens Results in No Charges and Many Questions - INDY Week (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sxOtluahDgEJ:https://indyweek.com/news/northcarolina/johnston-county-state-troopers-violent-encounter/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Aurora Police 'Mistake' Black Family's SUV for Motorcycle | Law & Crime (https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/colorado-cops-mistake-black-family-of-five-in-suv-for-one-stolen-motorcycle/)

Every single day there are stories that show how Black Lives don't Matter to too many cops. How they have the same built in automatic prejudice that a Black face equals a criminal not an innocent citizen which those of us who are white never have to fear or face.

If Black leaders would just make their people not commit so many crimes then all Black people wouldn't be seen as criminals. Do you all recall how cocaine was the scourge of America and lock those people away forever.. until it turned out white people used it too, then it became we need drug addiction treatment not jail.. ditto for heroin now. Race is a critical factor in what is seen as a crime, in how police do their jobs, in how charging decisions are made, in how juries see evidence and judge guilt, in how sentences are handed down, and now also in how executions are carried out. We do not have equal justice, racially blind justice. The authors are showing that to you if you care to read all 69 pages.

The law is required to be applied in a race neutral way to be constitutional, including the imposition of execution. Nor can it be arbitrary such as simply deciding to execute people whose birthday is evenly divisible by 7. As the authors state on page 52

"As applied to executions, the original research presented in this paper would suffice to make a prima facie case of disparate treatment among those sentenced to death,
and so the burden would shift to the state to prove that the system was executing persons in a race-neutral manner."

This paper is just another bit of evidence that our justice system is not just and a plea for making capital punishment a thing of the past.

Sorry, not sorry

[GoodLife]

Blah blah blah systemic racism by cops and courts is the problem

Actual systemic problem: blacks commit more crimes per capita

Stop committing crimes

Race card is a smokescreen

[camaguey48]

True, black leadership should worry more about one parent families, gang membership and lack of education that makes it hard to earn a good income. Do that and pretty sure crime would plummet.

More of that and think a lot of the racial problems would fade away on its own.
Agreed. Don't believe everything you read. Even salt looks like sugar.

[JimJohnson]

I’m in my 70’s and have watched racial equity inch forward very slowly over my lifetime, but nevertheless, inch forward. In the last few years, I see us rushing backwards. I no longer have hope to see racial equality in my lifetime.

[DrBrutyle109]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?
I think you can make numbers look like whatever YOU want.

[tsmall22204]

Not sure where you are coming from. I do feel that anyone who puts this much time into comparing deaths has a problem. Is it racism?

[crash]

OP there is systemic racism in the United States and if you can’t see it you are blind.

[MandoMan]

This entire thread is so typical of discussions of race on this and other websites. A story is posted by someone who from reading their past posts would be much more likely be anti - BLM and he hopes to stir up a discussion about race. He doesn't bother to actually read the material and doesn't seem to understand the point of the study or else he is deliberately mistaking the authors' viewpoint.

One anti-BLM poster comes here to make tell us:
[the authors did give the race of killer and victim so your implication is false]

something he thinks is very important about race and murder and that the authors are deliberately withholding data as to present the data would hurt their position.

and that


again to tell us that blacks are criminals and that therefore the justice system has to deal with them in an out of proportional amount.

When it is pointed out that the conclusion of the study is that race, not frequency of crimes, is what is studied and a black death vs a white death is not treated the same by the state of Georgia in the time period examined we are treated to a new set of confused people posting:



I don't mind be corrected by people who are on topic, but the topic here is not what is the ratio of such crimes. It is how are such crimes punished and you will find a key factor is race. If I used your data and it showed that of the 234 white killers none got the death sentence for killing a black person, but every black person, all 514 who killed a white person was given a death sentence would you tell me that justice is equally applied to black and white? Nope. Of course that is not the rate of sentencing but your data is meaningless to the question addressed in the study which looks at the percentage of death sentences carried out on people who are sentenced to die for killing a white person vs killing a black person.

This paper shows that race plays a role in the administration of the death penalty. It has already been shown to play a role in arrests and convictions. You can all say quit talking about race as it isn't important. Funny how white people say that.

Just today we have two more stories about cops acting all racist against black families in a way that would just not happen if the victims of the police action had been white.

https://indyweek.com/news/northcarolina/johnston-county-state-troopers-violent-encounter/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us]A (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sxOtluahDgEJ:[url) White State Trooper’s Violent Encounter with Two Black Teens Results in No Charges and Many Questions - INDY Week[/url]

Aurora Police 'Mistake' Black Family's SUV for Motorcycle | Law & Crime (https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/colorado-cops-mistake-black-family-of-five-in-suv-for-one-stolen-motorcycle/)

Every single day there are stories that show how Black Lives don't Matter to too many cops. How they have the same built in automatic prejudice that a Black face equals a criminal not an innocent citizen which those of us who are white never have to fear or face.

If Black leaders would just make their people not commit so many crimes then all Black people wouldn't be seen as criminals. Do you all recall how cocaine was the scourge of America and lock those people away forever.. until it turned out white people used it too, then it became we need drug addiction treatment not jail.. ditto for heroin now. Race is a critical factor in what is seen as a crime, in how police do their jobs, in how charging decisions are made, in how juries see evidence and judge guilt, in how sentences are handed down, and now also in how executions are carried out. We do not have equal justice, racially blind justice. The authors are showing that to you if you care to read all 69 pages.

The law is required to be applied in a race neutral way to be constitutional, including the imposition of execution. Nor can it be arbitrary such as simply deciding to execute people whose birthday is evenly divisible by 7. As the authors state on page 52

"As applied to executions, the original research presented in this paper would suffice to make a prima facie case of disparate treatment among those sentenced to death,
and so the burden would shift to the state to prove that the system was executing persons in a race-neutral manner."

This paper is just another bit of evidence that our justice system is not just and a plea for making capital punishment a thing of the past.

Sorry, not sorry

Thanks for your post. Actually, I had spent over an hour reading about thirty pages of the scholarly paper before posting. I doubt that very many read to the end. My interest was simply in the odd fact that apparently equality before the law would require executing killers 17 times as often. It was as if the anti-death penalty NYTimes had failed to notice the contradiction. Even then, that would only be (what was it?) 2.3% of murderers executed? I doubt that executing around three dozen murderers would stop the problem of people killing other people. It may be an equality not to be sought, an inequity not to be righted. If people watching the news saw that headline and thought “this is a terrible inequity,” they would be seriously misunderstanding the numbers.

[MandoMan]

Not sure where you are coming from. I do feel that anyone who puts this much time into comparing deaths has a problem. Is it racism?

Perhaps my point was too subtle. I’m interested in odd contradictions wherever I find them. I’m in favor of rightIng inequity, but it seems so odd for the Times to write an article about an inequity when righting it would seem to require executing more people for the sake of fairness.

For example, if you earn $1,000 for some task and I earn 17 times more than you for doing the same task, $17,000, you might argue that we have the same job, so equity demands that we should earn the same amount. But if you owe the bank $1,000 and I owe the bank $17,000, you probably would not argue that fairness demands that you get to owe the bank $17,000, too. It wouldn’t be sensible. But that seems to be what the Times article was suggesting, if one considers the implications.

Actually, relatively few murderers are put on Death Row, and very few of those are executed. The death penalty is a very complicated issue, and I wasn’t trying to solve it. I was simply interested in an article that seemed not to understand the implications of what it was revealing.

[oneclickplus]

I say execute ALL killers so that we don't have to read stories of statistics about racist policies. Execute them all and the argument goes away. 100% of all murderers executed regardless of race of murderer or victim. Problem solved.

[Girlcopper]

You seem to misunderstand my point. The “Stop and Frisk” policy was stopped in NYC because most of the people frisked and most of those arrested and most of those imprisoned were African-American, even though they made up a minority of the population. The BLM movement argues that police brutality is mostly against young African-American males. They want equality, which is not for MORE European-Americans to be frisked and arrested and brutalized, but for FEWER African-Americans to be treated that way. That seems like a solid argument, even if one could respond that criminals are being arrested and imprisoned—not innocent people.

But what is the intent of this new study? Is it suggesting that this is another example of the authorities not really caring about African-American victims because if they did, in the name of equality, they would execute 17 times as many murderers of African-Americans in the name of equality? Really? Are they saying that racist juries don’t care enough about African-American lives to sentence more murderers to death? I’m in favor of the death penalty, accomplished quickly and painlessly and inexpensively, for nearly all first degree murderers, but is that really what they are asking for? Most of those executed would be African-Americans. This seems like such a peculiar thing to complain about, given that the Times is opposed to the death penalty.
You say stop and frisk was banned due to more blacks being arrested and imprisoned. Well, simple thought.....if they werent found to be violating a law at the time, carrying a weapon, having an outstanding warra nt, then they wouldnt have been arrested. When someone gets the death penalty, they sit on death row for decades until they exhaust all their appeals which means they managed to live for decades more. Did the victim get to? Everyone needs to stop quoting statistics. Yes, some blacks are targeted. Could it be they are known criminals who constantly come in contact with police for crimes? Just like people who are registered sex offenders will be targeted if there happens to be a rape in their area. REGARDLESS of their color. If an area is a majority of black residents, the perpetrators will most likely be black. How about we just look at the crime committed instead of the color of someone. Plus, if you dont want to be targeted by police then dont get the reputation of being a punk.

[Viperguy]

I don't see racists, I see crime. Triple law enforcement and anti drug enforcement and most won't have any reason to commit crime. It's drugs.

[Red White & Blue]

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

Can you say the same if we were living in Africa?

[UseYourBrain]

I would want to know the race of the killers (those being executed) before I made a conclusion that the whole thing is racist. Isn’t that also important to the conclusion ?

[UseYourBrain]

Thank you. It is always important to get all the facts and have context. The “news” usually has an agenda to get you fired up and presents only a portion of the story. So asking questions before you accept their narrative is a good thing.

While I agree there is always more work to do, issues to solve, I also see The media stoking the fires. How about we step back and look at the whole picture and where the issues are for blacks. If you didn’t read all this “news” what would you think would be Most helpful?

[transplanted]

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center (https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/race)

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.



The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.
What is it in the state of Illinois? I'm not interested enough to spend my time researching it, but if someone has bothered, I'm curious. And of course we all know, the statistics can be portrayed in whatever way an agenda has been prepared beforehand, so I take any of it with a grain of salt.

[ProfessorDave]

Brilliant response. If those same differences in stats were two jet aircraft manufacturers people would be astonished versus believe these are small differences.

[Delta479]

Stu, you've identified the problem and solution in one paragraph. I couldn't agree more. As an LEO for a span of 38 years, I saw this first hand. Too bad our nation refuses to address the real solution.

[GoodLife]

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives
matter.

Newsflash; Nobody cares. These are all convicted killers who committed murders so heinous that the death penalty was applied, and the numbers show very few death penalties are actually carried out. The study boils down to 22 executions over a period of several years. Study says 20 murderers of whites were executed, only 2 murderers of blacks executed. Easy fix, execute all death penalty murderers of blacks, stats show that 90% of these killers will be blacks killing other blacks. Happy now?

Let's look at an actual problem - interracial crime:

Conventional “wisdom” maintains that violent crime tends largely to be an intra-racial affair, where whites target mostly whites, and blacks target mostly blacks. This is certainly true for homicide, but much less true for other crimes of violence such as assault, rape, and robbery.

Let us look first at homicides that involved whites and blacks during 2012 and 2013. During those years, white killers nationwide chose to target white victims approximately 93 percent of the time, and black victims 7 percent of the time. Meanwhile, black killers targeted black victims 84.7 percent of the time, and white victims 15.3 percent of the time.

But violence in America crosses racial lines much more frequently when the crimes in question are rape, robbery, and assault. In 2012 and 2013, for instance, blacks in the U.S. committed an annual average of 560,600 violent crimes (excluding homicide) against whites, while whites committed a yearly average of 99,403 violent crimes against blacks. In other words, blacks were the attackers in about 85 percent of all violent crimes involving blacks and whites, while whites were the attackers in 15 percent.

Those broad figures, however, do not even begin to tell the full story about interracial crime. To get a complete picture, we must also look at crime statistics from the perspective of the offender. That is, when a given violent offender chooses a victim to target for a crime, does he tend to target a victim who is a fellow member of his own racial group, or does he tend to go after a victim from another racial group? Here are the facts:

When white offenders committed crimes of violence (excluding homicide) against either whites or blacks in 2012-13, they targeted white victims 95.8 percent of the time, and they went after black victims a mere 4.1 percent of the time.
By contrast, when black offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks in 2012-13, they targeted white victims a whopping 48.5 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 51.4 percent of the time.[2]
If we factor into the equation the relative sizes of America's white and black populations, we find that, statistically, any given black person in 2012-13 was about 27 times more likely to attack a white, than vice versa.

In more recent years, the disproportionate prevalence of black-on-white crime has only gotten worse. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in 2018 there were 593,598 interracial violent victimizations (excluding homicide) between blacks and whites in the United States. Blacks committed 537,204 of those interracial felonies, or 90.4 percent, while whites committed 56,394 of them, or about 9.5 percent. Moreover:

When white offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks in 2018, they targeted white victims 97.3 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 2.6 percent of the time. By contrast, when black offenders committed crimes of violence against either whites or blacks during that same year, they targeted white victims 58 percent of the time, and they went after black victims 42 percent of the time.

City Journal also reports that according to Justice Department data, blacks in 2018 were overrepresented among the perpetrators of offenses classified as “hate crimes” by a whopping 50 percent—while whites were underrepresented by 24 percent.

These numbers are staggering. If America were teeming with white racism, those guilty of interracial crime would be disproportionately white. But instead, the exact opposite is the case. Thus, the enormous amount of attention given to white-on-black attacks – which are statistically rare in the United States – is an obscene and senseless absurdity. The notion of ubiquitous white racism manifesting itself in unacceptably high levels of white violence against blacks, is one of the most destructive and monstrously evil lies of our time, creating levels of racial mistrust and animosity that are wholly unwarranted.

[kendi]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

I’m not really interested in taking the time to read the links you posted. But anytime media quotes a so called “study” or “research” people tend to automatically take it as fact. No matter that the studies more often than not are skewed Or just plain lies due to a variety of reasons. Some of which are bias; agenda; sample studied not large enough; sample studied too narrowly focused so can’t be generalized to the population as whole; do not take into account factors that can’t be controlled in the study but will render it unreliable; too many variables in the samples; etc., etc.

[LoisR]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?
Thank you for continuing the discussion on racial inequality in America. What go the stats you quote mean?
They mean more has to be done in our country to assure all Americans are treated justly, fairly, objectively, impartially, honestly, and without ANY biasis.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I would want to know the race of the killers (those being executed) before I made a conclusion that the whole thing is racist. Isn’t that also important to the conclusion ?

No. That's a different set of data to prove a different set of hypotheses.

In THIS set, this is the hypothesis:

IF the victim is black
THEN the law doesn't consider the murder to be worth harsh punishments (including the death penalty).

IF the victim is white
THEN the law does consider the murder to be worth harsh punishments (including the death penalty).

Therefore

The law values the life of the white victim more than it values the life of the black victim, in the situation of murder victims.

[Taltarzac725]

PolitiFact Florida On Blacks 'Grossly Overrepresented' On State’s Death Row | WLRN (https://www.wlrn.org/post/politifact-florida-blacks-grossly-overrepresented-state-s-death-row#stream/0)

This is interesting about Florida's death row.

I had a friend who was pen pals with two of these inmates at the same time and they seemed a little jealous of one another. The friend was probably in her early 80s when she was writing them both. Have not seen this lady in quite some time and she also went to the demonstrations against the death penalty in Starke, Florida.

[LG999]

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

[donfey]

Figures lie and liars figure. Statistics can be (and usually are) manipulated, depending on the desired outcome. One way to improve race relations, IMO, would be to STOP "reporting" garbage like this. In fact, why not stop collecting and using race as an identifier at all? Drop it from the census, from "news" reports, from job or college applications, from any public mention? This stuff is killing our country.

[Marshaw]

They problem many have is they use the population as a comparison. It's wrong you have to use the percentage of crimes committed. That's the only fair comparison

[blueash]

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

Don't believe what you read in the original post. The author of that post, Choro&Swing did not bother to finish reading the study. The race of both the killer and the victim is given. But that is not what this study was about.

For the third time, at least, this study is a follow up to a previous study done in Georgia which proved that in Georgia the race of the victim and the killer was an important factor in whether the death penalty was imposed by the justice system.

Please stop posting that we should not record race or notice race. The justice system notices race and is unequal in its application. The scales are tilted in favor of white people. This is not necessarily intentional but all you have to do to understand how a black person in the justice system is disadvantaged by his color is read the posts on this thread. There is a presumption that a black person is more likely to be a criminal. You can't undo that in a juror's mind.

This study was done to see what happened to all the persons who were sentenced to death in Georgia in the original study. If race was meaningless after sentencing, as the SCOTUS has suggested it would be, then there would be no difference in the rate at which the death penalty was carried out when race was looked as as a variable.

This study which was not a poll, not based on made up numbers, not manipulated, not contrived... this study looked at the outcome of all death sentences and showed that race matters even after sentencing in how the death penalty is imposed. Executions are not race neutral. That is all this paper showed. And it only examined Georgia's sample. This paper is a legal analysis of death penalty jurisprudence and was presented to argue that the present status of SCOTUS decisions on whether executions are race based needs to be re-examined.

Read the paper. The entire paper.

[wirenail444]

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/us/racial-gap-death-penalty.html?campaign_id=2&emc=edit_th_20200804&instance_id=20949&nl=todaysheadlines&regi_id=58623110&segment_id=35152&user_id=025ec4a03ccfc15efcd68d00b480f13b)

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/07/07.30.2020-Phillips-Marceau-For-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?
1. The NYT is the worst newspaper in the country. They regularly lie.
2. You can make statistics say anything you want.
3. The real crime against the poor is the intercity school systems. The path out of poverty is education and the poor are denied a decent education by the democratic run cities.

If you want to be upset, at least pick the right issue.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

The study is about the value of the victims, not the value of the killers.

Again - it doesn't matter what color the killers are, in the context of THIS topic. There could be 20 black killers, 20 white killers, and 60 Native American killers -

the end result is STILL that if the victim was black, those killers will receive, on average, a less severe punishment than if the victim was white.

[Number 10 GI]

I have the solution to the problem. If someone commits murder they are executed for it. Totally levels the field.

[Heyitsrick]

This study linked by the OP is a study advancing the work done by Professor David Baldus, et al., in 1983. Baldus researched death penalty convictions and executions in Georgia during the 1970's, and found disparities in the racial makeup of those actually executed, based on whether a murder victim was black or white.

First, the time period here was the 1970's. One can only hope that things might be different today than over 40 years ago in Georgia.

I read this paper. We all see things through the our own biases and filters, of course, but I did find the authors jumped through some hoops to make their case at times. For example, they reclassified / modified the stats on a person executed for killing a black individual because that person had also killed a white individual. In actuality, the killer (William Henry Hance) killed two black women and one white woman, and was first sentenced to death for killing one of the black women. That sentence was overturned, but later a resentencing occurred.

The authors go on to say that whenever a white victim is involved, the police response is going to be much greater, and hence a nationwide manhunt ensued to find the killer.

Here's how they justify modifying this "black murder victim" to, instead, a "white murder victim":

"In a technical sense, Hance was sentenced to death and executed for a “case” involving a Black victim, Gail Jackson. In a practical sense, though, Hance’s “case” included three victims who were killed in the same manner during a crime spree, one of whom was a white woman. Considering the facts outlined above, we believe it is appropriate to treat Hance as a white victim case. Such a conclusion is consistent with social science research which has shown that executing an offender for a transgression against a “different victim” is not unprecedented."

The authors later agree that aggravating circumstances in the different murder cases could, in fact, result in why some were eventually executed for their murders and some not. Yet they then go to great lengths to try and quantify various aggravating factors that would portend why an execution would be warranted. It was kind of like you get one point for this factor, one point for that factor, etc. And, not surprisingly, they concluded that the aggravating factors of the cases weren't sufficient to warrant the difference in why more people were executed for white victim deaths than black victim deaths.

At the very start of the study, they state that anyone being executed for a capital crime in this country is quite rare:

"An unexpected feature of the modern death penalty is the fact that most persons sentenced to death are not executed. Between 1973 and June of 2019, more than 8,000 persons have been sentenced to death, but about 1,500 persons have been executed. Death sentences are remarkably poor predictors of who will ultimately be executed."

That's ~32 people / year who have been put to death.

I do take issue with the "17 times more likely to be executed" mantras. The numbers involved in both the original Baldus study and this one are, by any reading, quite small. If you had $17 and I had $1, I'm pretty sure neither of us would be rich.

[Heyitsrick]

I think that some things that studies like these can't really address are variables that are just different in the cases involved.

Were these trials/sentences all conducted in the same court with the same judge and jury? Of course not.

Were the murders in question all similar in the manner in which the victims were killed? Very doubtful. In the end, a life or lives were taken, to be sure. But that's not how juries and judges are going to evaluate them. Was a victim shot? Was a victim kidnapped/raped/killed? You get the picture...and I'm sure I don't have to go into more gory details. Different cases present details that juries and judges are going to evaluate both objectively (to the extent possible) and emotionally. We're all human.

That doesn't mean there's never a racial component in how justice is meted out, and I'm not making that argument. But statistics in and of themselves don't tell a full story. And yes, sometimes those full stories can further a study's conclusions. Sometimes, though, they might add more context where stats in and of themselves can't paint a clear picture of what happened.

[zendog3]

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.

[jimjamuser]

I’m in my 70’s and have watched racial equity inch forward very slowly over my lifetime, but nevertheless, inch forward. In the last few years, I see us rushing backwards. I no longer have hope to see racial equality in my lifetime.
I believe that MLK said that the arc of history moves toward the good and the positive. I hope that eventually proves out.

[jimjamuser]

I don't see racists, I see crime. Triple law enforcement and anti drug enforcement and most won't have any reason to commit crime. It's drugs.
You will have to wait for A.I and Robotics to improve to create "Robo-cops" for tripling law enforcement to be cost effective. No one today wants their property and other taxes raised.

[Topspinmo]

I say execute ALL killers so that we don't have to read stories of statistics about racist policies. Execute them all and the argument goes away. 100% of all murderers executed regardless of race of murderer or victim. Problem solved.

Agree, and do it in timely manner not 20 plus years after the fact.

[Topspinmo]

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.

Yes the study of specific results is now proven which out doubt facts.

[eddie888]

13% of the population commit 84% of the crimes. Can you figure that out.

[bluecenturian]

Please do better research. This was a very easy find on the race of the person executed. The Times is leaning the article toward their viewpoint and is hardly unbiased.

White criminals are executed more than black criminals. The victim comparison would included black on black crimes with gang on gang included. The shooter is less likely to get the death penalty for shooting another gang member shooting at him.

62% of white victims are violated by white criminals. 70% of black victims are violated by black criminals. According to your study the criminals violating black victims are not getting executed at a high enough rate however, 70% are black criminals. If those that violated black victims are facing a higher execution rate there would be people complaining black criminals are getting executed much more.

Executions by Race and Race of Victim | Death Penalty Information Center (https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/executions-overview/executions-by-race-and-race-of-victim)

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

[mitch zajac]

post by Good Life Best and most honest post yet

[JimJohnson]

I believe that MLK said that the arc of history moves toward the good and the positive. I hope that eventually proves out.

What a brilliant man Martín Luther King was. He truly walked in the path of Jesus Christ. Thank you for this post.

[Get real]

I am against the death penalty because it takes too long.

[Bay Kid]

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.

All lives matter. BLM is a terrorists group.

[tvbound]

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.


The saddest part is that all too many whites, mostly the older ones, think this multiplier is too low.

[nn0wheremann]

Trouble is, they forget MarTwain’s maxim. “Before you quote statistics, you have to get your facts straight.”

[GoodLife]

The saddest part is that all too many whites, mostly the older ones, think this multiplier is too low.

Nah We'd actually be more happy if they execute every 1st degree murderer, black or white.

This is cuz we are not racist. :a040:

[ruralgoddess]

Mark Twain said there were three types of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.

[sunny56]

Since I didn't quite get how people are stating the 17% number based on race, and my numbers actually show there are more whites on death row than any other minority, I decided to look further into numbers.

Apparently one item people forgot to look at was gender. I now have found out that female victims cause death penalty more than color. So I believe everyone is looking at this the wrong way entirely.

[Kwenner]

I think color/race needs to be taken out of the equation. You commit the crime, pay the price. End of discussion .

[Kwenner]

Delta,Thank you for your service .