Hacienda GC

[Burgy]

Anyone know or have an idea what will happen with Hacienda Hills GC.? Will the courses continue or be built over?

[Stu from NYC]

There are two other threads on the subject of Hacienda running now.

Best answer so far is maybe.

[tophcfa]

Anyone know or have an idea what will happen with Hacienda Hills GC.? Will the courses continue or be built over?

Very good question, I wish I knew the answer? It was pointed out in another thread that there does not appear to be enough space to build the monstrosity apartment complex in the space where the pro shop, restaurant, pool, and tennis courts used to be. Time will tell. I think if the developer does eliminate Championship golf they will be shooting themselves in the foot. No one will ever again feel comfortable paying a premium for a golf course lot/home.

[vagent711]

There is 7 acres on which the apartments and amenities will be built. All three 9 holes courses will continue as they have in the past.

[tophcfa]

There is 7 acres on which the apartments and amenities will be built. All three 9 holes courses will continue as they have in the past.

I very much hope that you are correct. Where did you get this information?

[bobnyce]

I think the way things have gone so far, everything is pure speculation. To build 300 apartments they will either be very tall or spread out. One or the other. And what about parking, the suggested pool available to all Villagers, and the restaurant? Really, can anyone imagine what else will go missing?

[JoMar]

Go look at the Lofts in Brownwood. 265 Apartments. We really should stop speculating on something we know nothing about.

[Huskies]

Anyone know or have an idea what will happen with Hacienda Hills GC.? Will the courses continue or be built over?
It’s our understanding that it will be a 9 hole course

[vagent711]

I very much hope that you are correct. Where did you get this information?
Directly from leadership in the Districts Management office, after meetings with the Developer

[Joanne19335]

There is 7 acres on which the apartments and amenities will be built. All three 9 holes courses will continue as they have in the past.

And you know this for sure, how?

[Annabel's Mom]

Unless in writing it cannot now be believed.

[graciegirl]

Anyone know or have an idea what will happen with Hacienda Hills GC.? Will the courses continue or be built over?

NO GOLF COURSE IN THE VILLAGES HAS BEEN BUILT OVER. A Country Club restaurant building has been removed. Period. AMEN.

[George Page]

Let’s build it big and beautiful ... more money!

[Buckeye Bob]

There is absolutely nothing in writing with the developer about a restaurant.

[DonH57]

Very good question, I wish I knew the answer? It was pointed out in another thread that there does not appear to be enough space to build the monstrosity apartment complex in the space where the pro shop, restaurant, pool, and tennis courts used to be. Time will tell. I think if the developer does eliminate Championship golf they will be shooting themselves in the foot. No one will ever again feel comfortable paying a premium for a golf course lot/home.

Imagine buying a golf course lot and the next thing you know you know later you are now facing someone's living room, bedroom, or lanai ? People may have second thoughts on buying pool priority perks as well not knowing which country club will be next.

[Bill Fox]

One of the reasons people get all up in arms ....are due to the rumors that get started on sites like this. The developer will NEED the golf course as a draw for high end renters...They are not taking any of the golf course away.

[JoMar]

Directly from leadership in the Districts Management office, after meetings with the Developer

And the persons name is??

[CanTho]

NO GOLF COURSE IN THE VILLAGES HAS BEEN BUILT OVER. A Country Club restaurant building has been removed. Period. AMEN.

I do appreciate your comments they are well written, direct and better still you make your point crystal clear atleast to me.

But for the others take a guess % wise who just don't get it .... well fill in _______ I bet it's over 75%.

PS: This AM ( Saturday 8/22 ) about a dozen or so people were protesting in front of Panera Bread @Spanish Springs. A complete total waste of time.

Parking Garage or Apartments with all the modern convivences take your pick.

[tophcfa]

I do appreciate your comments they are well written, direct and better still you make your point crystal clear atleast to me.

But for the others take a guess % wise who just don't get it .... well fill in _______ I bet it's over 75%.

PS: This AM ( Saturday 8/22 ) about a dozen or so people were protesting in front of Panera Bread @Spanish Springs. A complete total waste of time.

Parking Garage or Apartments with all the modern convivences take your pick.

I will pick the parking garage. I don't have to compete with parked cars for a t time at an executive golf course or a lane in a sports pool to swim laps in.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Eventually, everything in the The Villages will be turned into apartments. There will be no rec centers, no pools, no golf courses, no tennis courts, no parks and no single family homes. The goal is to turn it into The Bronx of Florida. 😂😂

[Dana1963]

They aren’t Country Clubs they are golf courses with restaurants! Some good some not so good.

[Windguy]

I’m rather shocked by the comments about the developer here. I thought the vast majority of people in TV were conservatives and that most (all?) conservatives were pro business. Here’s a company that has produced this wonderful community and they are constantly being criticized as being greedy. I don’t get it.

A business that doesn’t make money dies. It cannot afford to fund an operation that doesn’t return a profit. This country club and Katy Belle’s were here to make money for the developer and were, apparently, failing at that. They were not amenities here just for our enjoyment. The developer is not a government.

The “greedy” developer sees that there is a huge demand for living the active lifestyle we have here in TV and they are trying to meet it. The Boomers are retiring in huge numbers. Do you think the “greedy” developers should stop building houses and stop turning unprofitable land into land that can help meet that demand?

Not everyone can afford to own a large home on a lot. Not everyone wants to maintain a yard. Some of us are getting too old to deal with all the maintenance issues associated with living in a single-family home and would like to sell their houses to a younger family and move into a maintenance-free apartment. Do you want to force them to move out of TV where their friends are? Apartments are a benefit to the community. Yes, building them on top of a single-family neighborhood is unfortunate, but what else do you think they should do with that land that can actually turn a profit.

Instead of whining about this, how about making suggestions of things they can do with that land that is actually profitable.

[jacksonbrown]

One of the reasons people get all up in arms ....are due to the rumors that get started on sites like this. The developer will NEED the golf course as a draw for high end renters...They are not taking any of the golf course away.

Interesting first post.

Or, one might opine that the oligarchs engage in monopolistic practices in direct violation of the Interstate Commerce and Sherman Anti-trust Acts.

In any case, see Big Yellow Taxi sung by Joni Mitchell (https://youtu.be/ratQlft_G5c)

listening for "They paved paradise to put up a parking lot".

Little did she know then, that she was singing about the Hacienda GC.

[Buckeye Bob]

And what about parking, the suggested pool available to all Villagers, and the restaurant? Really, can anyone imagine what else will go missing?[/QUOTE]

There is nothing in the agreement about a restaurant.

[Buttrcp123]

Was there something so wrong with Hacianda that it couldn't be fixed, but tore down?

[graciegirl]

Was there something so wrong with Hacianda that it couldn't be fixed, but tore down?

I see a lot of posts from new posters and they are either stirring the pot or are negative which makes me wonder if we missed a meeting somewhere that was negative toward either The Villages, the CDD form of government or the developer or all of those things and that someone wants another "power" to lead here.

I feel a movement forming somewhere that feels very controversial and contrary to all of the good things I have seen for fourteen years owning here in The Villages.

I am a woman and I sense it and I smell it and I feel it.

[mcmanirog]

I think residents of The Villages should have "Protest Marches" daily in front of town square sales offices regarding what's happening to Hacienda Hills C.C., Katy Belles, and who knowes what else in the future. It would certainly blemish their image as "Florida's Friendliest Home Town". it's become quite clear they are not interested in what is happening, especially to residents north 466.

[justjim]

I think residents of The Villages should have "Protest Marches" daily in front of town square sales offices regarding what's happening to Hacienda Hills C.C., Katy Belles, and who knowes what else in the future. It would certainly blemish their image as "Florida's Friendliest Home Town". it's become quite clear they are not interested in what is happening, especially to residents north 466.

Welcome to TOTV. I’m wondering how many negative posts regarding the proposed apartments and the Developer are from residents north of 466. Counting Orange Blossom there are five championship golf courses north of 466. Three are 27 holes and two are eighteen holes. That is a lot of championship golf. The owner and Developer is making decisions based on supply and demand which changes over time. Apparently there is a demand for apartments and less demand for championship golf and Country Club restaurants north of 466. Just a thought.

[jacksonbrown]

Apparently there is a demand for apartments and less demand for championship golf and Country Club restaurants north of 466. Just a thought.

Apparent? And you know that how?

[graciegirl]

Apparent? And you know that how?

He knows that because he has been living here since 2012. He knows that because he is a very aware and up on things person. Usually after people live here for awhile they relax and see there is no hidden agenda. This is a mighty fine place to live. In eight years it may well be apparent to you.

[Northwoods]

:bigbow:
I’m rather shocked by the comments about the developer here. I thought the vast majority of people in TV were conservatives and that most (all?) conservatives were pro business. Here’s a company that has produced this wonderful community and they are constantly being criticized as being greedy. I don’t get it.

A business that doesn’t make money dies. It cannot afford to fund an operation that doesn’t return a profit. This country club and Katy Belle’s were here to make money for the developer and were, apparently, failing at that. They were not amenities here just for our enjoyment. The developer is not a government.

The “greedy” developer sees that there is a huge demand for living the active lifestyle we have here in TV and they are trying to meet it. The Boomers are retiring in huge numbers. Do you think the “greedy” developers should stop building houses and stop turning unprofitable land into land that can help meet that demand?

Not everyone can afford to own a large home on a lot. Not everyone wants to maintain a yard. Some of us are getting too old to deal with all the maintenance issues associated with living in a single-family home and would like to sell their houses to a younger family and move into a maintenance-free apartment. Do you want to force them to move out of TV where their friends are? Apartments are a benefit to the community. Yes, building them on top of a single-family neighborhood is unfortunate, but what else do you think they should do with that land that can actually turn a profit.

Instead of whining about this, how about making suggestions of things they can do with that land that is actually profitable.
:bigbow:

[rtrav711]

There is absolutely nothing in writing with the developer about a restaurant.
Many States required a "Property Report" to be prepared by Florida developers due to a 1985 Florida property case. The Villages ..."IN WRITING"...promised many things including the Hacienda CC to have a pool..pro shop..tennis courts..etc. They also laid out the development to HAVE ONLY homes and villas....no multi dwellings as proposed at Hacienda. They can be held accountable for their written commitments via "class action" suit that several groups are now investigating. There are also some Villages Our Hometown pamphlets produced around 2004 that contain similar information and promises. All in writing. Depreciated home values around HHCC can be substantial . Will be interesting to watch this play out.

[JSR22]

Many States required a "Property Report" to be prepared by Florida developers due to a 1985 Florida property case. The Villages ..."IN WRITING"...promised many things including the Hacienda CC to have a pool..pro shop..tennis courts..etc. They also laid out the development to HAVE ONLY homes and villas....no multi dwellings as proposed at Hacienda. They can be held accountable for their written commitments via "class action" suit that several groups are now investigating. There are also some Villages Our Hometown pamphlets produced around 2004 that contain similar information and promises. All in writing. Depreciated home values around HHCC can be substantial . Will be interesting to watch this play out.

Where can I view the report?

[rtrav711]

States like NY, Ct , Mass., etc ....had required them for anyone considering buying property in Florida due to the Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625, 629 (Fla. 1985) case that involved a piece of Florida property. This is just info I've picked up from various people. Perhaps if you contact the controlling department in an individual State they will be able to get you a copy or advise you of where to locate it. Possibly...someone reading this note can better direct you..

[graciegirl]

[QUOTE=rtrav711;1824781]States like NY, Ct , Mass., etc ....had required them for anyone considering buying property in Florida due to the Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625, 629 (Fla. 1985) case that involved a piece of Florida property. This is just info I've picked up from various people. Perhaps if you contact the controlling department in an individual State they will be able to get you a copy or advise you of where to locate it. Possibly...someone reading this note can better direct you..[
/QUOTE

There is no problem or crisis. People who live near the Senior Living building complex on 466 next to Bob Evans have had no issue with devalued property. Nor the ones who live adjacent to Promises across from the High School have no trouble with their property being made less value. Or the ones in Duval behind the huge assisted living building on 466 A. Those folks right next to that building have had no problem getting the proper amount for the homes sold. Why all the new people with messages of dark gloom?

I sense a secret movement to overthrow The Villages as a CDD.

[JSR22]

States like NY, Ct , Mass., etc ....had required them for anyone considering buying property in Florida due to the Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625, 629 (Fla. 1985) case that involved a piece of Florida property. This is just info I've picked up from various people. Perhaps if you contact the controlling department in an individual State they will be able to get you a copy or advise you of where to locate it. Possibly...someone reading this note can better direct you..

You have not read the report, but know the contents?

[Nick Kelly]

I'm a snow bird and behind the times.
One simple question.
Are they building apartments near Hacienda GC ?
Is it too complicated to be answered on this forum ?

[JSR22]

I'm a snow bird and behind the times.
One simple question.
Are they building apartments near Hacienda GC ?
Is it too complicated to be answered on this forum ?

Yes, there will be apartments at Hacienda.

[rtrav711]

To answer whether I have ever read the contents of the Villages real estate report....I had....prior to buying property in the Villages. I probably still have the report among other older stuff in the attic. Suggest if you need a copy, check with the State of Florida, they may have a copy. Otherwise...one of the groups looking into a legal action may have a copy or copies....I know of no group contacts..so if a member of same is reading this....perhaps you can supply a copy of a property Report. Thanks..

[jacksonbrown]

I probably still have the report among other older stuff in the attic. Suggest if you need a copy, check with the State of Florida, they may have a copy..

Great posts!

Please, rtrav711, keep digging.

Those of us that live along the Morse Blvd parking lot (high season) are extremely interested.

[rtrav711]

Just returned from golfing and saw your note. I have two friends who will be greatly impacted by the changes at HH Country Club....so I will be checking into information that will assist them. Will be sharing what I find...if helpful....on this site.

[Patzy]

This isn't exactly correct. The developer has 286 remaining amenity privileges that they can now build North of 466. They dont have to build on HHCC site. The AAC voted against the 200 constituents wishes 4-1. The AAC traded most of the 286 amenity fees for a pool, walking path, and courts. Along with rebuild of the postal station...this is quite simplified. The bottom line is that owners got screwed. And unless you live on an Executive course, the developer can take any championship course, county club, square, developer open/owned anytime they want. But above 466 they will need amenity privileges. Check out Villages Promise Preservation Watch (V2PW) on Nextdoor. We roll out a web page and FB page next couple of days.
One thought that makes some sense is that developer wants to establish some cash streams to make a sale more appealing. The 3rd Generation is nearing retirement.

[jacksonbrown]

the developer can take any championship course, county club, square, developer open/owned anytime they want.

Yes, yes, yes.

And, instead of building the high density housing in a "commercial" zone, aka Brownwood, left unchallenged, this event could mean that the oligarchs will erect other units in the middle of any residential, single family housing neighborhood.

Folks, this is precedent setting.

Don't think it can happen to you?

YES, it can and probably will!

PS: Patzy, I've been watching formation of the "Villages Promise Preservation Watch" (V2PW) on Nextdoor. I applaud your (and others) efforts. And, I will donate to a GoFundMe (https://www.gofundme.com/) account for legal fees, trying to protect my property's value.

[tophcfa]

I was wondering how long it would take before the residents that would be directly effected by the HH apartments started to push back. If this directly effected our property, I would not go away quietly.

Everyone who owns, or is considering owning, a home in proximity to land owned by the developer (including all Championship golf courses), should be watching how this plays out very closely. It could happen to you!

[jacksonbrown]

I was wondering how long it would take before the residents that would be directly effected by the HH apartments started to push back. If this directly effected our property, I would not go away quietly. Everyone who owns, or is considering owning, a home in proximity to land owned by the developer (including all Championship golf courses), should be watching how this plays out very closely. It could happen to you!

Read the latest (Sept. 2020) edition of the POA Bulletin and the current VHA newspaper.

The strong arm tactics used against members of the AAC by the Developer (aka "He") should enrage all current and prospective homeowners.

[JoMar]

So who actually has something where the Developer "promised" something....or where they were prohibited from building on the land they owned. It's always easy to slam the Developer when you have no investment, nor do you want to invest, only want to tell somebody else how to spend their money. We had the same "sky is falling" attitude down here when they announced the lofts. If you can't handle change then this isn't the place for you.

[Huskies]

Was told by an ambassador that their thinking of making it a 9 hole course.

[rtrav711]

As requested by a few folks...finally dug out the Amended and Restated Property Report filed in 2003. The cover from the State of Connecticut states "The developer is responsible for the accuracy and completeness of the report". This written report reflects the developer projects only the building of "Villas and Homes" and there is no mention of multiple dwellings in the areas built to that point. Outlines the lot locations and number of lots. The developer further notes the CC amenities including the swimming pools, tennis courts...and specifically the 27 Holes available at the Hacienda Golf course...and "All of the recreational facilities in The Villages, including the golf courses,swimming pools,tennis courts,game courts, recreational centers and club houses are initially owned and maintained by the developer and/or its assignee." There is much more information in the report ... and was used to describe the development. From our prospective, we gave credibility to the written report when considering a purchase in the Villages.

[npwalters]

[QUOTE=rtrav711;1824781]States like NY, Ct , Mass., etc ....had required them for anyone considering buying property in Florida due to the Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625, 629 (Fla. 1985) case that involved a piece of Florida property. This is just info I've picked up from various people. Perhaps if you contact the controlling department in an individual State they will be able to get you a copy or advise you of where to locate it. Possibly...someone reading this note can better direct you..[
/QUOTE

There is no problem or crisis. People who live near the Senior Living building complex on 466 next to Bob Evans have had no issue with devalued property. Nor the ones who live adjacent to Promises across from the High School have no trouble with their property being made less value. Or the ones in Duval behind the huge assisted living building on 466 A. Those folks right next to that building have had no problem getting the proper amount for the homes sold. Why all the new people with messages of dark gloom?

I sense a secret movement to overthrow The Villages as a CDD.

Because al the sites you mention are in commercial districts - not in the middle of single family housing.

[rtrav711]

On page 4 it indicates I posted a remark that there is "no problem or crisis"...THIS WAS NOT MY QUOTE BUT SOMEONE ELSE"S..... In reality...there were numerous complaints...rightfully so...from several residents of Tall Trees...complaining about the residents of the second and third floors of the building on Parr Drive being able to look over their privacy wall. etc....and so on.

[thecinks1@gmail.com]

Sadly, it seems obvious the developers have concluded they'd rather use property that previously supported 10 to 12 houses to now support 250+ residences! When we moved here in '06, the developers were making a visible effort to make sure amenities kept up with the number of new residences. That is no longer true.

[jacksonbrown]

As requested by a few folks...finally dug out the Amended and Restated Property Report filed in 2003. The cover from the State of Connecticut states "The developer is responsible for the accuracy and completeness of the report". This written report reflects the developer projects only the building of "Villas and Homes" and there is no mention of multiple dwellings in the areas built to that point. Outlines the lot locations and number of lots. The developer further notes the CC amenities including the swimming pools, tennis courts...and specifically the 27 Holes available at the Hacienda Golf course...and "All of the recreational facilities in The Villages, including the golf courses,swimming pools,tennis courts,game courts, recreational centers and club houses are initially owned and maintained by the developer and/or its assignee." There is much more information in the report ... and was used to describe the development. From our prospective, we gave credibility to the written report when considering a purchase in the Villages.

Please go to the Villages Promises Preservation Watch (V2PW) (https://v2pw.com/) website and contact the organizers of this vital movement.

[Patzy]

Actually, 3rd Gen Dev can build anywhere they own the land north of 466 and can get zoning approved. They are not required and it's not likely they will use the 286 amenity privedges on the 7 ac site.

[Patzy]

Those properties are not a comparison for complete residential owners who's championship front properties were sold at premiums and beside a championship country club.

[Patzy]

Amenities and Dev owned Lifestyle features like Country Clubs, premiere pools and tennis courts, the squares, shopping on TV owned property are not the same, especially north of 466.
North of 466 Amenities are owned by cdd and managed by the AAC.

[Patzy]

Actually, 3rd Gen Dev can build anywhere they own the land north of 466 and can get zoning approved. They are not required and it's not likely they will use the 286 amenity privedges on the 7 ac site.

[Patzy]

We have a growing group of residents taking action to increase awareness of the threats to 3rd Gen Dev Marketed Lifestyle features. Please join up on our web page v2pw.com .
We include all of TV. We are researching and sharing to educate on the alphabet soup and who does what when. Also we are engaged in efforts to impact future similar actions as HHCC.
We are on FB v2pw. And if you have a story we are collecting those.

[rtrav711]

I guess I am missing something here. The Developer filed with the State of Connecticut, and I understand other States... a Restated Property Report (2003)...that stated there would be nothing but homes and villas built in the boundaries of the then Villages. That the stated golf courses with all their listed facilities would be maintained by the developer and/or his assignee. This is in writing...and is preempted by the statement" The developer is responsible for the accuracy and completeness of the report". Assume many who purchased property in the Villages depended on the statements made in this report. There has been talk about a "class action" lawsuit...and several groups are looking into that. It would seem that it would be difficult for the developer to avoid compensatory damages and responsibility here...on the devaluation of hundreds of homes; which can possibly amount to many, many millions.In addition, there is also talk of the potential of a "punitive damage" count...due to the actions of the developer, and total disregard to the resident's well being. It is difficult to understand why the developer has not stuck to its' original plan. Then going forward in the new sections of the Villages....with a newly restated plan, allows the developer more latitude...as new buyers are then aware of what to expect.

[PennBF]

It would appear there are a few options that could be used by the residents of that Village to take control of their investments, (homes, etc). One would be to hire some attorney(s) to (a) enforce the current laws and restrictions and (b) to ensure future laws protect the residents. This could be a class action suit? Another is to demonstrate which was done when the Developer/Owner failed to take action when the CC in the old section was being ignored because the Developer did not put reserve funds aside for repairs and replacements. That resulted in a $40 million fine to the Developer. The impact of this kind of action causes the Developer to lose money as sales are down, etc. And when this action causes the Developer to lose as much as he would make from the his actions for the Apartments he may rethink the alleged abuses he is fostering on the current residents in that area. Another option is sending a group of residents to the Florida Legislature and demand control over the abuse of their alleged agreed upon property. There may be other options but these come to mind when people are being ignored when there are abuses to their land. I don't believe the residents who don't live in the Village that is allegedly being abused should stick their nose under the tent. I know of some who live a great life in their current locations and are either supportive of the Developer's actions or against. These are the ones that have no right to a position and should stay out of it unless they feel their property may be next?:popcorn:

[dewilson58]

So who actually has something where the Developer "promised" something....or where they were prohibited from building on the land they owned. It's always easy to slam the Developer when you have no investment, nor do you want to invest, only want to tell somebody else how to spend their money. We had the same "sky is falling" attitude down here when they announced the lofts. If you can't handle change then this isn't the place for you.


There is no place for these people.

[Kerry Azz]

Speculation? I guess that’s what happens when all residents at the meeting opposed approval of putting apartments there. That was the sleaziest deal ever!

[Number 10 GI]

Apparent? And you know that how?

If you will look around outside the bubble of TV you will see a lot of new apartment complexes being built so apparently there is a need for them. I don't believe there are very many investors that will build an apartment complex and hope someone will rent them without some research to see if it is feasible. The Lofts at Brownwood were rented out before they were finished so apparently there is a demand for them.

As far as golf courses go, after reading so many posts on this forum complaining about proper golf etiquette, poor condition of the greens, and jerk golfers, maybe fewer courses isn't a bad idea.

[Number 10 GI]

This written report reflects the developer projects only the building of "Villas and Homes" and there is no mention of multiple dwellings in the areas built to that point.

Projects is the key word here. Investment counselors make projections all the time but they don't always happen. Because there is no mention of multiple dwellings means nothing, does not say there won't be any. I would bet the "Family" pays for some very smart lawyers and investment advisors so I don't think there going to be anything in this that will bite them in the butt.

[jacksonbrown]

I would bet the "Family" pays for some very smart lawyers and investment advisors so I don't think there going to be anything in this that will bite them in the butt.

One would think, but then, there is the matter of the 45 million dollar lawsuit.

See

POA Accomplishments | POA of The Villages (https://poa4us.org/poa-accomplishments/)

The Villages developer settles lawsuit for $40 million - News - Ocala.com - Ocala, FL (https://www.ocala.com/article/LK/20080310/News/604230651/OS)

Every property owner needs to join the POA (https://poa4us.org/) and read the monthly newsletter, delivered to you or available at these locations (https://poa4us.org/distribution-locations/).

[rtrav711]

The "promises" the developer made...say in 2003...that "attracted buyers"...and "promised buyers"...is what the developer would have to over come. Buyers expected to be in home/villa neighborhoods as the sellers presented and envisioned. They (developers)...committed to doing things that the buyers depended upon... just so they could sell more homes at a higher price; than other developments in the area. It would be difficult.." rather impossible" for the developers to justify a change in their commitment regardless of what law firm represented them. Sales brochures touting such things as "Katie Belle's Resident Dining Club", Entertainment each night, recreation centers, etc....were all promises made to attract home buyers. This will be interesting going forward.

[dewilson58]

Sales brochures touting such things as "Katie Belle's Resident Dining Club", Entertainment each night, recreation centers, etc....were all promises made to attract home buyers. This will be interesting going forward.


:1rotfl::1rotfl:
And what was the Katie B promise???......it will always be open, no matter how much money it's losing??
:1rotfl::1rotfl:

[graciegirl]

The "promises" the developer made...say in 2003...that "attracted buyers"...and "promised buyers"...is what the developer would have to over come. Buyers expected to be in home/villa neighborhoods as the sellers presented and envisioned. They (developers)...committed to doing things that the buyers depended upon... just so they could sell more homes at a higher price; than other developments in the area. It would be difficult.." rather impossible" for the developers to justify a change in their commitment regardless of what law firm represented them. Sales brochures touting such things as "Katie Belle's Resident Dining Club", Entertainment each night, recreation centers, etc....were all promises made to attract home buyers. This will be interesting going forward.

We have lived here for fifteen years now and we went to Katie Belle's about a half dozen times in the first five years. People lost interest. So when an entity that used to turn a profit doesn't any more, time to change.....which they tried, and then when the change didn't fly, time to stop. Nobody cheated anybody out of anything. I didn't cry over the Buffalo being gone. We live on that field now. When anyone mentions that law suit and the POA, I want to throw up on someone's shoes. I think someone who doesn't like the prevailing success of this place wants to ruin everything.

[PennBF]

Help me understand how people who don't even live in the effected area and occupy homes in what are protected locations stick their nose under the tent of those who allegedly are being economically abused by the Developer/Village Owner? I would no more tell the residents of this area to forget it and just fold their tents since I have no skin in the game. There is a mention of 4 POA Directors putting up their own money for the lawsuit regarding the CC in the Historic Section. They took the risk and supported the actions to restore the CC for the people in the District. There was an award of $40 Million and the judge was moved by these 4 dedicated residents and awarded them $50K each for their willingness to help their neighbors. I see there was a shooting in the new Hotel in Wildwood. This is what is being proposed for the residents in the general area of the new hotel. NET: If you are not impacted by this intrusion into your peaceful life then stay out of it!!!

[PennBF]

I have read some that defame the POA for it's action regarding the $40M lawsuit because the Developer/Village Owner did not put reserve funds aside to make sure the Country Club in the Historic District was kept up. As a result it had rats in its walls, decay etc. The Court/Judge ruled in favor of the POA Lawsuit and demanded the situation be corrected by the Developer/Village Owner. Thus the $40M fine. Why would anyone take exception for the good work the POA does? What is the motivation?:ho:

[Patzy]

Yes, you are correct.
As with all large organizations, over time, comfort can breed expanded egos and shifting alliances from neutral or for residents and owners. This has happened with the TV local governing bodies and the County Commissioners.
Several contributing factors: most are 1st generation Villagers on the governing bodies and have developed even at a minimum perceived relationships with the dev.
Now next generation Villagers are coming in and are challenging the status quo. And for good reason. A heavily Marketed TV Lifestyle Brand was presented in many forms, forums, and venues. Lifestyle preview, elaborate sales offices, trolley and boat tours, radio station, and newspaper. And we want it, we accept that we pay more we buy we own, sell our family and friends and then this Lifestyle is taken through backdoor deals.

Ck us out,
Villages Promise Preservation Watch v2pw.com
Join if you agree. Join if your undecided. You will receive emails after you join.

[PennBF]

It is one thing to say someone disagrees with the policy and practices of an organization but to say a person would "throw up on their shoes" is crossing the line. It actually may cause another to express their behavior in that manner. The POA is made up of some very good people who deserve respect even if you disagree with them? Lets hope none take that behavior as appropriate and have higher standards. :ohdear:

[jacksonbrown]

If you are not impacted by this intrusion into your peaceful life then stay out of it!!!

Exactly my sentiments.

But Wait! Maybe those folks are posting under an alias (as we all are :icon_wink:)

[John41]

Was there something so wrong with Hacianda that it couldn't be fixed, but tore down?

There are many profitable restaurants in The Villages and HC could have been one of them. But the developers new vision is high rise apartments so the heck with what was promised in sales literature. So unprofitable HC was just a ruse same as the long gone buffalo. There will be many more ruses so not listen to the developers soothsayers on TOTV.

[npwalters]

We have lived here for fifteen years now and we went to Katie Belle's about a half dozen times in the first five years. People lost interest. So when an entity that used to turn a profit doesn't any more, time to change.....which they tried, and then when the change didn't fly, time to stop. Nobody cheated anybody out of anything. I didn't cry over the Buffalo being gone. We live on that field now. When anyone mentions that law suit and the POA, I want to throw up on someone's shoes. I think someone who doesn't like the prevailing success of this place wants to ruin everything.

Now that I would pay to see. But to address your last sentence; recognizing that "prevailing success" is good for some but can harm others is the first step in your Villages Myopia Syndrome (VMS) recovery.

[Topspinmo]

I’m rather shocked by the comments about the developer here. I thought the vast majority of people in TV were conservatives and that most (all?) conservatives were pro business. Here’s a company that has produced this wonderful community and they are constantly being criticized as being greedy. I don’t get it.

A business that doesn’t make money dies. It cannot afford to fund an operation that doesn’t return a profit. This country club and Katy Belle’s were here to make money for the developer and were, apparently, failing at that. They were not amenities here just for our enjoyment. The developer is not a government.

The “greedy” developer sees that there is a huge demand for living the active lifestyle we have here in TV and they are trying to meet it. The Boomers are retiring in huge numbers. Do you think the “greedy” developers should stop building houses and stop turning unprofitable land into land that can help meet that demand?

Not everyone can afford to own a large home on a lot. Not everyone wants to maintain a yard. Some of us are getting too old to deal with all the maintenance issues associated with living in a single-family home and would like to sell their houses to a younger family and move into a maintenance-free apartment. Do you want to force them to move out of TV where their friends are? Apartments are a benefit to the community. Yes, building them on top of a single-family neighborhood is unfortunate, but what else do you think they should do with that land that can actually turn a profit.

Instead of whining about this, how about making suggestions of things they can do with that land that is actually profitable.

Suggestions box is closed, it apartments, now the issue is how much intrusion on the golf course?

I imagine you don’t live on HH golf course which when built was tooted as premier CC and premium homes on golf course. If it don’t affect me I don’t care attitude. That’s why they get away with it.

[graciegirl]

Now that I would pay to see. But to address your last sentence; recognizing that "prevailing success" is good for some but can harm others is the first step in your Villages Myopia Syndrome (VMS) recovery.

Are the independent and assisted living buildings next to Bob Evans hurting the neighborhoods directly behind them?

[npwalters]

Are the independent and assisted living buildings next to Bob Evans hurting the neighborhoods directly behind them?

They are on 466 and in an established commercial area. Same for the other sites you have mentioned. I've explained this to you several times but it doesn't seem to register.

The proposed high density apartments at Hacienda Hills are squarely in the middle of single family housing. Do a search for Hacienda Hills CC on Google earth and it is immediately apparent.

[dewilson58]

They are on 466 and in an established commercial area. .


Actually, residential is just across the street.

[npwalters]

:bigbow:

:bigbow:

I’m rather shocked by the comments about the developer here. I thought the vast majority of people in TV were conservatives and that most (all?) conservatives were pro business. Here’s a company that has produced this wonderful community and they are constantly being criticized as being greedy. I don’t get it.

Most conservatives are pro business and also recognize that successful businesses usually maintain good relations with the community in which they do business. The developer knows that the residents that live near the (former) Hacienda Hills CC site are overwhelmingly opposed to the proposed multi story apartment complex in the middle of their single family home community.

A business that doesn’t make money dies. It cannot afford to fund an operation that doesn’t return a profit. This country club and Katy Belle’s were here to make money for the developer and were, apparently, failing at that. They were not amenities here just for our enjoyment. The developer is not a government.

The conversation isn’t about Katie Belles. We hate to see it go but the proposed apartments are in a commercial district and don’t compromise the area. We all understand the developer is not a government. Duh.

The “greedy” developer sees that there is a huge demand for living the active lifestyle we have here in TV and they are trying to meet it. The Boomers are retiring in huge numbers. Do you think the “greedy” developers should stop building houses and stop turning unprofitable land into land that can help meet that demand?

Of course not – huge leap of logic on your part. They are proceeding to build , literally thousands of houses in the southern areas right now.


Not everyone can afford to own a large home on a lot. Not everyone wants to maintain a yard. Some of us are getting too old to deal with all the maintenance issues associated with living in a single-family home and would like to sell their houses to a younger family and move into a maintenance-free apartment. Do you want to force them to move out of TV where their friends are? Apartments are a benefit to the community. Yes, building them on top of a single-family neighborhood is unfortunate, but what else do you think they should do with that land that can actually turn a profit.

The obvious answer to this is choose one –or several -vacant areas in the other areas of TV that is predominantly commercial or planned and zoned multi-family and build away.

Instead of whining about this, how about making suggestions of things they can do with that land that is actually profitable.

OK, 1) a new single family neighborhood 2) single story professional offices for TV operations 3) the parking garage the developer threatened the AAC with. Would be preferable to high density apartments, or 4) gain some credibility with The Villages residents and do some repair to their reputation by actually spending some of their profit from other operations and create a green space. I'm sure there must be others that are far less intrusive that what is planned.

[npwalters]

Actually, residential is just across the street.

If you are talking about "assisted living buildings next to Bob Evans" it is bordered by commercial on 3 sides.

[dewilson58]

If you are talking about "assisted living buildings next to Bob Evans" it is bordered by commercial on 3 sides.


I know.


But the one side is residential and Gracie's comment was regarding residential values next to the AL buildings.


The AL buildings on 466a have residential on three sides.


Duh.

[tophcfa]

I know.


But the one side is residential and Gracie's comment was regarding residential values next to the AL buildings.


The AL buildings on 466a have residential on three sides.


Duh.

There is a big difference between the two areas. The people who bought the homes in the area surrounded by three sides of commercial space should have known the risk they were taking and did not pay a premium for their homes location. Totally different than the people who are getting screwed in the Hacienda Hills area.

[dewilson58]

There is a big difference between the two areas. The people who bought the homes in the area surrounded by three sides of commercial space should have known the risk they were taking and did not pay a premium for their homes location. Totally different than the people who are getting screwed in the Hacienda Hills area.


The point of this discussion within this thread is the home values next to the AL buildings. Knowing the risk or not is not relevant. The values of the homes on 466 and 466a have not been negatively impacted by non-single family units.


:ohdear:

[tophcfa]

The point of this discussion within this thread is the home values next to the AL buildings. Knowing the risk or not is not relevant. The values of the homes on 466 and 466a have not been negatively impacted by non-single family units.


:ohdear:

Knowing the risk, or not, is very relevant because the price paid for the homes in question had the risk already reflected in the price. Once the risk became reality it was already reflected in the price and therefore did not have a negative impact.

On the other hand, the people who paid a premium for homes at HH had no reasonable expectation of what would eventually happen in their neighborhood. That risk was not priced into their purchase price and will definitely have a negative impact on the value of their homes. I guess it will take time to tell exactly how negative it will be, but it will be negative.

[Topspinmo]

I know.


But the one side is residential and Gracie's comment was regarding residential values next to the AL buildings.


The AL buildings on 466a have residential on three sides.


Duh.


None of those residential areas on the three sides are not premium homes on golf course are they. Duh ! So can’t compare them to total residential area around HH golf course.

[dewilson58]

None of those residential areas on the three sides are not premium homes on golf course are they. Duh ! So can’t compare them to total residential area around HH golf course.


Premium homes???? Is that a new classification in TV??


Premier or Designer or Villa............irrelevant to the discussion. The point within the thread was lost value.



Clueless.

[dewilson58]

On the other hand, the people who paid a premium for homes at HH had no reasonable expectation of what would eventually happen in their neighborhood. .


:1rotfl::1rotfl:


Thanks for the laugh.


No promises were ever made. Everyone is at risk. Things change. ANYTHING can happen to everyone's neighborhood.



(and how much of a premium did they really pay??....$5k, $10k, $20k??? And what is their value now???) :cryin2::cryin2:

[npwalters]

I know.


But the one side is residential and Gracie's comment was regarding residential values next to the AL buildings.


The AL buildings on 466a have residential on three sides.


Duh.

Why the DUH? you actually confirmed exactly what I said. I did not address assisted living on 466A since that is an entirely different discussion.

[Topspinmo]

Are the independent and assisted living buildings next to Bob Evans hurting the neighborhoods directly behind them?


Didn’t know there was Championship golf course around those houses where they overpaid to be on golf course. I see you point totally.

[tophcfa]

:1rotfl::1rotfl:
No promises were ever made. Everyone is at risk. Things change. ANYTHING can happen to everyone's neighborhood.

OK, so if that is true, the lesson learned is that anyone who paid a premium for the location of their lot is a sucker and should never have had any reasonable expectation the developer would suddenly eradicate the feature(s) they paid a premium for. Furthermore, anyone in the future who pays a premium for a home location is an idiot because now it has been PROVEN ANYTHING can happen to everyone’s neighborhood.

Here is hoping that every prospective home buyer is paying close attention to this lesson and the developer never again will get away with charging a premium for a home location. That might just be a wake up call!

[candyco33]

I live in Spanish Springs on a golf course. If they built an apartment complex behind me on the golf course I would be furious!! There is no room for more living quarters in Spanish Springs. The traffic can't handle what we have already during season. It's an impossibility to turn left on Morse in any direction.
I'm adamantly against the building the apartment complex there. As far as the subject of greed and the Developers, they're knocking themselves out building South Non-Stop and if they want to add apartment complexes they can do it all down there. They've forgotten all about Spanish Springs and it has turned into a Shabby mess compared to what it used to be. If they want to come mess around North they should focus on fixing things back the way they should be and taking better care of the grounds and the roads. The service road the post office is on is deplorable and so is the landscape there, and other places.
The developers have more than enough opportunity to make money. One thing they're not hurting in is money. It can't always be about the money in order to keep the design and attention, you've got to give some stuff. They've been making Oodles of money off of us with the amenities fees for almost a year now during covid-19 with everything shut down, pocketing the majority of it, because they surely have not done well at taking care of the north side of the villages! Also, the engineers that do the footprints for the roads, parking lots, landscape, etc. Are deplorable!!! I have no clue what they are thinking with the awkward, hard to navigate angles, tight corners, lost space, dangerous views do to landscape, lost parking spot opportunities and such. Madening and dangerous. Just doesn't make sense in so many scenarios.
I used to really love this place, now it's becoming a very different story and I see it in a whole different light. Not a happy camper!!!

[dewilson58]

Let's just take a handful of houses in the area............look a the original sale price (with site premiums included) and today's estimated value. Zillow estimated values are not 100%, but are good enough for gov't work.


#1 $200k, now $518k
#2 $269k, now $614k
#3 $217k, now $542k
#4 $500k, now $734k
#5 $255k, now $511k
#6 $204k, now $531k


They haven't sold yet, but I don't think anyone will lose their $5k or $15k paid premium.


:faint:

[tophcfa]

Let's just take a handful of houses in the area............look a the original sale price (with site premiums included) and today's estimated value. Zillow estimated values are not 100%, but are good enough for gov't work.


#1 $200k, now $518k
#2 $269k, now $614k
#3 $217k, now $542k
#4 $500k, now $734k
#5 $255k, now $511k
#6 $204k, now $531k


They haven't sold yet, but I don't think anyone will lose their $5k or $15k paid premium.


:faint:

Totally irrelevant, almost all home values have gone up over time.

The relevant comparison will be what were the effected homes in the HH area worth before anyone had any idea what was to become of the area and what will they be worth after this fiasco fully plays out. Time will tell?

[dewilson58]

Totally irrelevant, almost all home values have gone up over time.

The relevant comparison will be what were the effected homes in the HH area worth before anyone had any idea what was to become of the area and what will they be worth after this fiasco fully plays out. Time will tell?


Absolutely, agree.


The valuation point was: They have not lost anything. If they are concerned, they can get out with a nice profit...........if that is their focus. If the value is not their focus, let the fiasco play out.

[Jazzman]

Go look at the Lofts in Brownwood. 265 Apartments. We really should stop speculating on something we know nothing about.

These apartments were built on vacant land adjoining a commercial area Brownwood. Not the same as building in an area surrounded by private residences

[Jazzman]

Let's just take a handful of houses in the area............look a the original sale price (with site premiums included) and today's estimated value. Zillow estimated values are not 100%, but are good enough for gov't work.


#1 $200k, now $518k
#2 $269k, now $614k
#3 $217k, now $542k
#4 $500k, now $734k
#5 $255k, now $511k
#6 $204k, now $531k


They haven't sold yet, but I don't think anyone will lose their $5k or $15k paid premium.


:faint:
At this juncture the data is irrelevant. Once the complex is built and owners of private residences who want to list their homes, the sale price at that time is the data used to make a comparison. And a realtor who doesn’t want to face any legal action for non disclosure would need to tell prospective buyer the plans for the apartment complex in the future. That may bother all or a few of potential buyers based on negotiation of list versus sale price

[graciegirl]

These apartments were built on vacant land adjoining a commercial area Brownwood. Not the same as building in an area surrounded by private residences

In the Village of Duval there is a three story building that houses older people smack dab up against private residences. These are apartments for VILLAGERS. Not college kids.

[dewilson58]

At this juncture the data is irrelevant.


The data shows the owners will not incur a loss.......MAYBE less gain, but not a loss and they have an opportunity to get out if they want to.


The value of the homes across the street from the apartments have not slowed.

[graciegirl]

Didn’t know there was Championship golf course around those houses where they overpaid to be on golf course. I see you point totally.

There is a golf course close to the homes on Day Lily Run in Duval that are adjacent to the large building where older people live. Three story building. I googled, actually I BINGED some of them and they were purchased in the two hundreds and now the "Zestimate" for them are in the four hundreds and five hundreds. You can do that too. It's the truth;

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=2725+day+lily+run+the+villages+fl&cvid=0807fa0d8af7402f95acdadfcae4b6b4&pglt=43&FORM=ANSPA1&PC=DCTS

[chas39]

NO GOLF COURSE IN THE VILLAGES HAS BEEN BUILT OVER. A Country Club restaurant building has been removed. Period. AMEN.

I agree we’re here over 20 years they only added courses

[npwalters]

The data shows the owners will not incur a loss.......MAYBE less gain, but not a loss and they have an opportunity to get out if they want to.


The value of the homes across the street from the apartments have not slowed.

Less gain is just another way of saying a loss. It is a loss of what they would have prior to the incursion of multi-story high density complex. Just a wild guess but....I'm guessing you were never in real estate.

[dewilson58]

Less gain is just another way of saying a loss. It is a loss of what they would have prior to the incursion of multi-story high density complex. Just a wild guess but....I'm guess you were never in real estate.


There is no gain or loss until sale.


Relying on assumed gains or losses is silly.

[npwalters]

There is a golf course close to the homes on Day Lily Run in Duval that are adjacent to the large building where older people live. Three story building. I googled, actually I BINGED some of them and they were purchased in the two hundreds and now the "Zestimate" for them are in the four hundreds and five hundreds. You can do that too. It's the truth;

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=2725+day+lily+run+the+villages+fl&cvid=0807fa0d8af7402f95acdadfcae4b6b4&pglt=43&FORM=ANSPA1&PC=DCTS

The obvious difference between this and HHCC is that these people knew they were adjacent to an area zoned for commercial use and therefore the lots were priced accordingly. BTW there is a wall that surrounds the assisted living place and whatever other commercial entities are there now. All the homes in the area that are nearest back up to it (face the opposite direction).

I couldn't remember so I had to go look (online). There is a Lowe's and several other business concerns right next door to Sumter Place - to the west.

[mneumann02]

So who actually has something where the Developer "promised" something....or where they were prohibited from building on the land they owned. It's always easy to slam the Developer when you have no investment, nor do you want to invest, only want to tell somebody else how to spend their money. We had the same "sky is falling" attitude down here when they announced the lofts. If you can't handle change then this isn't the place for you.

Here is a different perspective in defense for those who are called "whiners", "complainers", and that "this isn't the place for you." TV is a wonderful community with great amenities and friendly people. 95% of the people I've met here are terrific folks, who realize they are nearing the end of life's journey and just want to enjoy their remaining years. (5% are kind of crabby old people.) The best two descriptions of TV I've heard are that it is "Disneyland for adults", and "like going to college without having to go to class." That said, no one wants something good they have taken away from them. Would anyone want an apartment building or a filling station built behind their lanai instead of the golf course view they bought? Yes, The Developer can do whatever they want, but that does not make it right if it negatively affects TV residents. Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it the right thing to do. We all want to be good neighbors, and probably so does The Developer. So kicking up a little fuss over actions that are detrimental to even a single home, let alone a neighborhood, is probably not a bad thing.

[graciegirl]

I live in Spanish Springs on a golf course. If they built an apartment complex behind me on the golf course I would be furious!! There is no room for more living quarters in Spanish Springs. The traffic can't handle what we have already during season. It's an impossibility to turn left on Morse in any direction.
I'm adamantly against the building the apartment complex there. As far as the subject of greed and the Developers, they're knocking themselves out building South Non-Stop and if they want to add apartment complexes they can do it all down there. They've forgotten all about Spanish Springs and it has turned into a Shabby mess compared to what it used to be. If they want to come mess around North they should focus on fixing things back the way they should be and taking better care of the grounds and the roads. The service road the post office is on is deplorable and so is the landscape there, and other places.
The developers have more than enough opportunity to make money. One thing they're not hurting in is money. It can't always be about the money in order to keep the design and attention, you've got to give some stuff. They've been making Oodles of money off of us with the amenities fees for almost a year now during covid-19 with everything shut down, pocketing the majority of it, because they surely have not done well at taking care of the north side of the villages! Also, the engineers that do the footprints for the roads, parking lots, landscape, etc. Are deplorable!!! I have no clue what they are thinking with the awkward, hard to navigate angles, tight corners, lost space, dangerous views do to landscape, lost parking spot opportunities and such. Madening and dangerous. Just doesn't make sense in so many scenarios.
I used to really love this place, now it's becoming a very different story and I see it in a whole different light. Not a happy camper!!!

I sort of feel a barrage of let's blast the developer. I get the sense there is a movement afoot somewhere.

Please remember that a bunch of folks from the "North" side sued the developer several years ago over what to me looked like foolishness and several folks got a big chunk of change for THEMSELVES out of it and an area up NORTH of 466 got the opportunity to rule themselves in many ways.

I don't like the sudden onslaught of foolishness. Again we will wait Grasshopper and it will all be just fine. I remember when the homeowners that lived near the buildings on 466A were so concerned that old men would spy on them from their third floor windows. Haven't heard a peep about any folks who live there bothering anyone and it certainly has NOT hurt the property values of the people who live adjacent to the apartments for older people.

I wonder who the ring leader is to all this?

[JoMar]

These apartments were built on vacant land adjoining a commercial area Brownwood. Not the same as building in an area surrounded by private residences

I guess you don't count Courtyard Villas as private residences.

[JoMar]

I hear a lot of complaining but very few alternatives. What do you propose for the location and what are you willing to invest or support to make it successful? It seems a lot of those in SS area don't support a lot of the business's up there and go outside the bubble to shop and eat unless there is something going on at the Sharon or a popular group at the squares.

[Dana1963]

States like NY, Ct , Mass., etc ....had required them for anyone considering buying property in Florida due to the Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625, 629 (Fla. 1985) case that involved a piece of Florida property. This is just info I've picked up from various people. Perhaps if you contact the controlling department in an individual State they will be able to get you a copy or advise you of where to locate it. Possibly...someone reading this note can better direct you..
The case your citing was for an individual property sale.

Florida “As Is” Real Estate Contracts and the Duty to Disclose in Residential Home Sales

Brice ZoeckleinAugust 12, 2017Blog2 Comments


A recurring source of litigation in Florida revolves around the rights of buyers and sellers operating under an “As Is” contract for sale of residential property.

A. The Seller’s Obligations to Disclose Under Florida Law

Despite the existence of contractual language excusing a seller of a property from representations (ie the “AS IS” language), Florida law provides a separate independent duty to disclose material facts that would substantially affect the value of a piece of property. Johnson v. Davis, 480 So.2d 625 (Fla. 1985). Importantly, the test for determining the materiality of a fact in a transaction of this nature is whether the fact “substantially affects the value of the property.” Dorton v. Jensen, 676 So.2d 437 (Fla. 2nd DCA 1996). That means that when a seller of a home knows of facts materially affecting the value of the property which are not readily observable and are not known to the buyer, the seller is under a duty to disclose them to the buyer. Johnson, 480 So. 2d at 629. The examples of such factors are endless but often include things like prior insurance claims, roof conditions, floods, construction defects, mold, termites, and septic/sewer system issues. Ultimately, the determination of whether the defect or issue if established is material would be question for the jury. A non-disclosure case requires the Plaintiff to establish the following elements:

(1) the seller of a home must have knowledge of a defect in the property,

(2) the defect must materially affect the value of the property,

(3) the defect must be not readily observable and must be unknown to the buyer, and

(4) the buyer must establish that the seller failed to disclose the defect to the buyer.

[tophcfa]

Here is a different perspective in defense for those who are called "whiners", "complainers", and that "this isn't the place for you." TV is a wonderful community with great amenities and friendly people. 95% of the people I've met here are terrific folks, who realize they are nearing the end of life's journey and just want to enjoy their remaining years. (5% are kind of crabby old people.) The best two descriptions of TV I've heard are that it is "Disneyland for adults", and "like going to college without having to go to class." That said, no one wants something good they have taken away from them. Would anyone want an apartment building or a filling station built behind their lanai instead of the golf course view they bought? Yes, The Developer can do whatever they want, but that does not make it right if it negatively affects TV residents. Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it the right thing to do. We all want to be good neighbors, and probably so does The Developer. So kicking up a little fuss over actions that are detrimental to even a single home, let alone a neighborhood, is probably not a bad thing.

Great post.

[tophcfa]

I hear a lot of complaining but very few alternatives. What do you propose for the location and what are you willing to invest or support to make it successful? It seems a lot of those in SS area don't support a lot of the business's up there and go outside the bubble to shop and eat unless there is something going on at the Sharon or a popular group at the squares.

I propose that they build the threatened satellite parking lot for the hospital. No increased stress on the already overused ammenities and no increased traffic since the people using the parking lot would already be in the area of the hospital. Threat called.

[jacksonbrown]

Here is a different perspective in defense for those who are called "whiners", "complainers", and that "this isn't the place for you." TV is a wonderful community with great amenities and friendly people. 95% of the people I've met here are terrific folks, who realize they are nearing the end of life's journey and just want to enjoy their remaining years. (5% are kind of crabby old people.) The best two descriptions of TV I've heard are that it is "Disneyland for adults", and "like going to college without having to go to class." That said, no one wants something good they have taken away from them. Would anyone want an apartment building or a filling station built behind their lanai instead of the golf course view they bought? Yes, The Developer can do whatever they want, but that does not make it right if it negatively affects TV residents. Just because something is legal does not necessarily make it the right thing to do. We all want to be good neighbors, and probably so does The Developer. So kicking up a little fuss over actions that are detrimental to even a single home, let alone a neighborhood, is probably not a bad thing.

Best post ever!

[graciegirl]

I propose that they build the threatened satellite parking lot for the hospital. No increased stress on the already overused ammenities and no increased traffic since the people using the parking lot would already be in the area of the hospital. Threat called.

If YOU owned the property, would YOU opt for a parking lot or an apartment building?

The Morses aren't our mother. People are in business to make money, not lose money. THERE IS NO SHAME IN MAKING MONEY. It keeps the economy alive. It supports the common man. It is a good thing. I cannot wait to see this completed and I know the critics will never come forth and say...Hey. I didn't think that would turn out well but it did. The Morses have made wise decisions all along. They have NO need to be greedy, they are the most successful development of it's kind in the U.S. according to Forbes.

Florida’s New-Home Communities Seen Leading The Nation Amid “Amazing” Rebound (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradhunter/2020/07/31/floridas-new-home-communities-seen-leading-the-nation-amid-amazing-rebound/#3ebc5d5044c8)

[npwalters]

I hear a lot of complaining but very few alternatives. What do you propose for the location and what are you willing to invest or support to make it successful? It seems a lot of those in SS area don't support a lot of the business's up there and go outside the bubble to shop and eat unless there is something going on at the Sharon or a popular group at the squares.

The developer could recoup their money (and probably make some) by developing the previous HHCC area as single family housing. The good will gained with current and future residents would be priceless.

[rtrav711]

Noted the comments re Johnson vs Davis, 480 So.2nd 625 (Fla 1985) as an individual property sale situation, and the narrow application and limitation re defects. Actually, going forward Florida case law, with limited exceptions, notes a home seller must disclose any facts or conditions about the property that have a substantial impact on its' value or desirability and that others cannot readily see for themselves. As duly noted by the writer of that comment, the BZ 2012 comments stated "Florida law provides a separate independent duty to disclose material facts that would substantially affect the value of a piece of property".
So as it evolved, Florida, like many states, requires sellers of homes and residential properties to make certain disclosures to buyers about the property's condition and history. It's based on the fact that sellers are in the best position to know all material facts relating to their properties, especially those that are not visible to the naked eye...or anticipated..and should disclose these to the buyer. Sellers who fail to do so face legal liability I understand.
This may have prompted and/or required developers to submit Property Disclosures such as the one filed by The Villages, to the State of Connecticut in 2003. It is a comprehensive 34 page report...lays out lot by lot where homes or villas were to be built...what to expect re golf courses and their facilities...rec centers...exclusive residents priority memberships..and so on....and is in writing. There is no mention of multi rental units within the boundaries of the Villages as presented. It would seem it was not only a factual portrayal of the offering...but could have been used as a sales tool to attract buyers.
It would then follow...if a proposed structure such as a multiplex building is built at HH Country Club....and the values of many single family homes near the course go down...the developer might be ultimately responsible for that; as it would be a deviation from what was presented.
(Please note...I do not have a legal background...and my comments are solely based on life experience and readings.)

[DonH57]

I hear a lot of complaining but very few alternatives. What do you propose for the location and what are you willing to invest or support to make it successful? It seems a lot of those in SS area don't support a lot of the business's up there and go outside the bubble to shop and eat unless there is something going on at the Sharon or a popular group at the squares.

I know when we first moved here hacienda hills CC was the place to go for good meals. Sunday brunches were always packed and usually a wait to get in. After management changed the decisions to change food vendors was the first mistake. The food sucked. It wasn't supported for good reasons after that. Additional changes came after making things worse. Tierra Del Sol and Katie Belles brunches were the same way till they folded like 2 dollar suitcases. Orange Blossom CC is the last remaining choice for brunches north of 466 or the alternatives are your typical greasy spoon chains on 441. We'll see what happens I guess.

[dewilson58]

I'm just not pre-judging..............I'm betting it will be nicely done and 99.9% will be happy.

[graciegirl]

You obviously don't live near this. There is NO WAY it will improve the area. They propose to shove an additional 500 plus residents in a multi story complex into an existing single family home area.

The developer has chosen to drop a turd in the punch bowl. You keep trying to polish it but it is still a turd.

I know how you see it. Again, I remind you of the three story building built on 466A close to a golf course and of the homes that are right up against it. And I further showed you that their estimated value has more than doubled since the apartments were built. You said "they knew it was near commercial. I say it is right in the middle between Morse and Buena Vista. It has not harmed the neighborhood or the values. I remember clearly when it was being built and there was much worry and angst and the same kind of scenario, along with those old men will be spying on us from the third floor. Now the properties that abut the wall that were purchased in the 200k's are now valued in the 500K's. And you said but there is a wall. Well maybe the developer will build a wall. Although it would be a shame to block the view of the Villagers, older people just like the ones now living here, who would enjoy seeing the golf course. There are only TWO PLACES with residences abut the Hacienda property and they are both the ends of cul-de-sacs.

We will see. I hope it does not harm anyone and that the folks who live close to this building will have the same good luck as the people who live near the three story building on 466A.

It does NOT affect me. You are right. I have no dog in this fight. I just like to quell unfounded rumors. This is MY loved town too, you know.

[graciegirl]

I know how you see it. Again, I remind you of the three story building built on 466A close to a golf course and of the homes that are right up against it. And I further showed you that their estimated value has more than doubled since the apartments were built. You said "they knew it was near commercial. I say it is right in the middle between Morse and Buena Vista. It has not harmed the neighborhood or the values. I remember clearly when it was being built and there was much worry and angst and the same kind of scenario, along with those old men will be spying on us from the third floor. Now the properties that abut the wall that were purchased in the 200k's are now valued in the 500K's. And you said but there is a wall. Well maybe the developer will build a wall. Although it would be a shame to block the view of the Villagers, older people just like the ones now living here, who would enjoy seeing the golf course. There are only TWO PLACES with residences abut the Hacienda property and they are both the ends of cul-de-sacs.

We will see. I hope it does not harm anyone and that the folks who live close to this building will have the same good luck as the people who live near the three story building on 466A.

It does NOT affect me. You are right. I have no dog in this fight. I just like to quell unfounded rumors. This is MY loved town too, you know.


When some people on TOTV found out that people were going to build on 466 they said that the homes would not have value with all that traffic sound. This is the patch where the buffalo used to roam. Properties in MY neighborhood sell in a very short time and at a substantial increase. I remember who said it and he was WRONG.

[jacksonbrown]

It does NOT affect me. You are right. I have no dog in this fight.

Then why do you continue posting counter arguments?

[npwalters]

I know how you see it. Again, I remind you of the three story building built on 466A close to a golf course and of the homes that are right up against it. And I further showed you that their estimated value has more than doubled since the apartments were built. You said "they knew it was near commercial. I say it is right in the middle between Morse and Buena Vista. It has not harmed the neighborhood or the values. I remember clearly when it was being built and there was much worry and angst and the same kind of scenario, along with those old men will be spying on us from the third floor. Now the properties that abut the wall that were purchased in the 200k's are now valued in the 500K's. And you said but there is a wall. Well maybe the developer will build a wall. Although it would be a shame to block the view of the Villagers, older people just like the ones now living here, who would enjoy seeing the golf course. There are only TWO PLACES with residences abut the Hacienda property and they are both the ends of cul-de-sacs.

We will see. I hope it does not harm anyone and that the folks who live close to this building will have the same good luck as the people who live near the three story building on 466A.

It does NOT affect me. You are right. I have no dog in this fight. I just like to quell unfounded rumors. This is MY loved town too, you know.

I encourage anyone reading this post to actually drive by Sumter Place, the area described by graciegirl, and see if it fits her description of smack in the middle of a neighborhood. You can find it easily by looking for the Lowes next door.

I am weary of your rose colored glasses and choose to end this debate with you. As long as the proposed apartments aren't in your neighborhood you will be in favor of them.

[graciegirl]

Then why do you continue posting counter arguments?

I am a Villager. I have been here for about 15 years. We owned a place in Hadley and now own a place at Bridgeport at Laurel Valley. I don't have a dog in the fight I said. And I also said that I love this place. It is now MY home town. I identify with it. It is a great place. I am a fan of how the developers have done things. It is a very successful entity for good reason. People are flocking here for good reason.

Why do you continue trying to see problems and stir up trouble???

[tophcfa]

Why do you continue trying to see problems and stir up trouble???

The person(s) you are responding to are not trying to see problems, and I am sure they would prefer to not be dealing with said problems. The problems got dumped into their neighborhood. They had no choice but to see the problems. And they are not trying to stir up trouble, someone else stirred up trouble for them, they are just responding to the troubles they did not ask for.

This is not directly effecting my wife and I, but I whole heartedly sympathize for the people who are being negatively effected by events that they never either hoped for or expected would happen in their neighborhood. Very sad.

[graciegirl]

The obvious difference between this and HHCC is that these people knew they were adjacent to an area zoned for commercial use and therefore the lots were priced accordingly. BTW there is a wall that surrounds the assisted living place and whatever other commercial entities are there now. All the homes in the area that are nearest back up to it (face the opposite direction).

I couldn't remember so I had to go look (online). There is a Lowe's and several other business concerns right next door to Sumter Place - to the west.

There is no commercial development between Morse and Buena Vista where Day Lily Drive is. You live close to Tierra Del Sol and not close to either the defunct Hacienda Hills Bar and Grill on Morse or La Hacienda Regional Rec Center on Avenida. The Regional Rec center has residential housing around it but Hacienda Hills has two cul de sacs touching it and that is all. It has a golf course to the back and Morse to the front.

[airdale2]

Imagine buying a golf course lot and the next thing you know you know later you are now facing someone's living room, bedroom, or lanai ? People may have second thoughts on buying pool priority perks as well not knowing which country club will be next.

What about the Silver Lake properties ??? They are in the town of Lady Lake.

[graciegirl]

Here are pictures I just found of the inside and out of the Lofts at Brownwood.

{{metaTags.title}} (https://www.thevillages.com/thelofts/)

I am not ready for a smaller space yet, but who knows what might change.

Can everyone use their pool?

[DonH57]

What about the Silver Lake properties ??? They are in the town of Lady Lake.

As far as i know Silver Lake executive course will remain but will be redone with minor changes.

[npwalters]

There is no commercial development between Morse and Buena Vista where Day Lily Drive is. You live close to Tierra Del Sol and not close to either the defunct Hacienda Hills Bar and Grill on Morse or La Hacienda Regional Rec Center on Avenida. The Regional Rec center has residential housing around it but Hacienda Hills has two cul de sacs touching it and that is all. It has a golf course to the back and Morse to the front.

Were you drinking when you wrote this LOL?

[graciegirl]

Were you drinking when you wrote this LOL?

I don't drink alcohol at all. I don't take mind altering drugs. What part do you disagree with? Your name is clear. People can find where people live. You live close to Tierra Del Sol that is now a theater.

The point I was making that there are two buildings with the name Hacienda in the title. One, Hacienda Bar and Grill is the name of the "country club" that was torn down for apartments. It backs on the golf course and fronts on Morse. On the sides of that property are homes at the end of culdesacs. About ten homes total at the most will be directly adjacent to the apartments to be built.

La Hacienda is another big building and it is a regional rec center on Avenida drive. Sometimes people get the two confused when someone says Hacienda in The Villages.

[collie1228]

I'm not a complainer or a whiner, and I am a firm believer in personal freedom, capitalism and the greatness of this United States of America. I also love living in The Villages and would not want to live anywhere else. I have never said that the developer does not have the right to make money. But I will say this. In almost any other place in this great USA, if you want to build a nearly 300 unit apartment complex in a residential area, you would be required to perform several studies before approval. One is an environmental impact study, and another would be a traffic study. I live just up the street from the proposed site, and must travel daily in my golf cart on Morse Blvd. (my mail station is the one in front of the former country club building). I am also a daily bicycle rider who avoids Morse Blvd. at all times. I don't think it's complaining to tell you that I believe traveling by golf cart or bicycle on Morse Blvd. is already one of the most risky things you can do in The Villages. There have been accidents resulting in fatalities and injuries in both golf carts and bicycles on this street. I want the "powers that be" to require the developer to perform a traffic study before final approval of the proposed construction, and for them to make that study available to the public. And I don't think that's too much to ask. I believe such a study would show that Morse Blvd. is woefully inadequate to add this many new residents, and would recommend widening it with the addition of multimode paths and tunnels. Which frankly is what you have just about everywhere else in The Villages.

[graciegirl]

I'm not a complainer or a whiner, and I am a firm believer in personal freedom, capitalism and the greatness of this United States of America. I also love living in The Villages and would not want to live anywhere else. I have never said that the developer does not have the right to make money. But I will say this. In almost any other place in this great USA, if you want to build a nearly 300 unit apartment complex in a residential area, you would be required to perform several studies before approval. One is an environmental impact study, and another would be a traffic study. I live just up the street from the proposed site, and must travel daily in my golf cart on Morse Blvd. (my mail station is the one in front of the former country club building). I am also a daily bicycle rider who avoids Morse Blvd. at all times. I don't think it's complaining to tell you that I believe traveling by golf cart or bicycle on Morse Blvd. is already one of the most risky things you can do in The Villages. There have been accidents resulting in fatalities and injuries in both golf carts and bicycles on this street. I want the "powers that be" to require the developer to perform a traffic study before final approval of the proposed construction, and for them to make that study available to the public. And I don't think that's too much to ask. I believe such a study would show that Morse Blvd. is woefully inadequate to add this many new residents, and would recommend widening it with the addition of multimode paths and tunnels. Which frankly is what you have just about everywhere else in The Villages.

I wonder how many units there is room for? I frequently take the road behind the independent/assisted living on 466 next to Bob Evans and I have never seen anyone go in or out. They must do it. There must be an entry on 466.

I have seen traffic studies done by The Morse family and studies by experts on many things. Maybe this is an established ratio, if you feed in the facts of number of inhabitants.

You are so right that having golf cart paths directly adjacent to Morse is very dangerous. It is one of the things they changed as they built south in most cases. I think that the cart paths should be separate. I wonder if that decision rests with the ACC that was established after the group sued the developer. I think Morse along the roadway doesn't look as nicely kept with ground cover and bushes north of 466. It seems to be better tended south of 466 where the regular CDD is still in control. BUT I may be that I am unfairly judging.

[PennBF]

Darn, I was going to stay out of this as much as I could since it is so loaded with "guesses" and terrible comparisons and conclusions based on poor judgements that it is like bad fiction! Let's take Parr Drive which is behind Bob Evan's and next to Elan Independent living with controlled age restrictions and people paying $6,000-$7,000 a month. In one case there was a comparison of this and the commercial apartments being built in a community of homes, and as one note said, "Only 10 homes will be right next to the Apartments". I promise you that writer would scream to blue heaven if they were one of the 10 homes!! I'm betting they are not! Lets agree that if you don't own a home in the area being developed as Apartments that we don't stick our noses under the tent and pretend we have the 'answers. There was a few comments regarding traffic both Auto and Cart and it was inserted, for reasons I can't understand why, this is related to a law suit the Developer lost and an ACC was created to offset his [Developer's] neglect of the
Country Club in the "Old Section"? :ohdear:

[dewilson58]

I'm looking forward to the apartments. I think it could be like Mardi Gras in NO. Let the Spring Breakers come. Stock up on beads now. (it all started in NO in the mid-70's) We were all much younger than............but what the hell, let's start this in The Villages.


Let's be honest..............who earned their beads in their younger days???


:popcorn:

[graciegirl]

Darn, I was going to stay out of this as much as I could since it is so loaded with "guesses" and terrible comparisons and conclusions based on poor judgements that it is like bad fiction! Let's take Parr Drive which is behind Bob Evan's and next to Elan Independent living with controlled age restrictions and people paying $6,000-$7,000 a month. In one case there was a comparison of this and the commercial apartments being built in a community of homes, and as one note said, "Only 10 homes will be right next to the Apartments". I promise you that writer would scream to blue heaven if they were one of the 10 homes!! I'm betting they are not! Lets agree that if you don't own a home in the area being developed as Apartments that we don't stick our noses under the tent and pretend we have the 'answers. There was a few comments regarding traffic both Auto and Cart and it was inserted, for reasons I can't understand why, this is related to a law suit the Developer lost and an ACC was created to offset his [Developer's] neglect of the
Country Club in the "Old Section"? :ohdear:

What are "commercial" apartments? Will there be the same age folks that now live here with the same restrictions? No one under 19 with a limit?? Will the leases be for a year or more? What will be the problem with people parking their auto or golf cart? Do the lofts have garages for golf carts? Do you think it will be like the Lofts? The Lofts is three story. What do you think will happen to the Village of La Hacienda? Do you think bad older people will live in the apartments? Some people always rent. I don't. Never have and really don't want to but snowbirds might find it more convenient until they can live here full time. Do some people stay snowbirds for always? I could be wrong about this harming the community. Bad mouthing the developer is certainly not doing anybody any good. I suspect it is part of another difficulty and could even have something to do with how some people view people who own big businesses and are financially successful.

[graciegirl]

What are "commercial" apartments? Will there be the same age folks that now live here with the same restrictions? No one under 19 with a limit?? Will the leases be for a year or more? What will be the problem with people parking their auto or golf cart? Do the lofts have garages for golf carts? Do you think it will be like the Lofts? The Lofts is three story. What do you think will happen to the Village of La Hacienda? Do you think bad older people will live in the apartments? Some people always rent. I don't. Never have and really don't want to but snowbirds might find it more convenient until they can live here full time. Do some people stay snowbirds for always? I could be wrong about this harming the community. Bad mouthing the developer is certainly not doing anybody any good. I suspect it is part of another difficulty and could even have something to do with how some people view people who own big businesses and are financially successful.

P.S. I misspoke. We did rent the first year of our marriage. We had dated for four years and saved enough money for the down payment on our first house.

[mike1946]

Hacienda Palms is a prime candidate for homes/apartments ...Lots of space !!

[PennBF]

I agree that people who have not lived or worked in area's with large Apartments rentals can't understand what problems are associated with this kind of a community. Living in a type of mid western state is like living in an open field compared to the density of a city like NY City where I worked for many many years. The Villages is leading to a "density" problem which will bring crime and serious infrastructure problems. It is not the size, it is the density and the problems associate with that kind of profile. To deny this is a strong indication of a lack of experience in high density areas. I think it is a little hypocritical to say the Developer/Owner of the Villages should not be "bad mouthed" but "throwing up" on POA members is acceptable behavior? Does the statement, "Let them eat cake" ring a bell?:ho:

[tophcfa]

Hacienda Palms is a prime candidate for homes/apartments ...Lots of space !!

And on holes 2 - 6 lots of homes that residents paid a big premium for so they could live on a Championship Golf course.

[Jayhawk]

And on holes 2 - 6 lots of homes that residents paid a big premium for so they could live on a Championship Golf course.

Where does it state the Championship Golf Course is being removed?

[tophcfa]

Where does it state the Championship Golf Course is being removed?

Hacienda Palms is a prime candidate for homes/apartments ...Lots of space !!

Responding to the above post, look closer.

[dewilson58]

Responding to the above post, look closer.


The property the CDD owns??

[graciegirl]

There is nothing at all spoken or planned about removing golf courses.

The people who would rent the apartments would have the same criteria as any Village resident. No kids under 19.

This wouldn't be a "Walker-in" rent by the hour day week month. These would be leases of at least a year.

This is not section eight housing.

I just put this header in my browser " people oppose apartments" and came up with this kind of negative reaction everywhere. Yet I KNOW of friends who live in Million dollar apartments in Chicago. Our granddaughter pays over three thousand dollars a month for an apartment in Manhattan. (And I wouldn't live in it for two seconds)

I think it is going to be like the Lofts.

[Jayhawk]

I think it is going to be like the Lofts.

Or even better. It'll have golf course views on some sides, much to the disappointment of about 50 chronic complainers ( most of whom don't really have a dog in the fight, they just like to bitch. It's their hobby).

[rtrav711]

Have read with interest the last couple of days of comments....some pros and some cons re what they want to do with the HH CC property. It must be kept in mind.....that the majority of people purchased in the Villages....for its' amenities and life style....which did not include apartments. And as a reminder...the developer in writing...noted all country club property with their restaurants...pools...tennis facilities...and so on would be available for a lifetime for property owners in The Villages. That written commitment now may be broken; and as a result... possibly hundreds of homes around HH CC will lose tangible value. Several of those who will not be directly effected.....seem to have little sympathy for those who will be.
Sales brochures ( The Villages...Our Hometown) that I have from 2004 for instance....tout Katie Belles as a "resident only" restaurant for lifetime enjoyment...note the variety of restaurants around the square...and " Have a cozy dinner at one of our Country Clubs. Each features a distinctive menu and ambiance from fine gourmet dining to Caribbean island fare". Well it looks like the ambiance at HH CC .... will be replaced....and the restaurants around the square will possibly become apartments, as a lot of owners are becoming victims of the covid-19 problem. (With "tongue in cheek"... one wonders that if the developer is financially hurting that bad due to the troubles restaurant owners have... and the Sharon is closed due to the covid-19 and generating no income....maybe the Sharon Theater should be converted into an "assisted Living" complex to help the developer meet his financial goals....may make about as much sense as the conversion of the HH CC).
One wonders why the developer will not maintain what was promised...in writing.
Going forward...why not be a little more creative. Why not take a parcel of The Villages expansion properties.....ad create a larger apartment complex placed appropriately and blending the complex into the geographic area......with assisted living included. Then gear social amenities and activities appropriately.....putt putt golf...larger centralized social center...bocce ball...on line or phone shopping....maybe even a small executive course...etc.. It would seem to make more sense. Residents would have more in common...activities would be more appropriate...and it could be a very special place...like no other........just as The Villages was once touted.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I just took a ride by Hacienda in my golf cart. With the buildings removed it's surprising how large the lot it. There will be no need to take any holes away from the golf courses to build an apartment building or buildings.

[Jayhawk]

. And as a reminder...the developer in writing...noted all country club property with their restaurants...pools...tennis facilities...and so on would be available for a lifetime for property owners in The Villages. That written commitment now may be broken;

Would you mind showing a copy of this "promise for a lifetime" you referenced? I can't find it in any of my stuff about The Villages, and I believe another poster is offering a reward for PROOF of this claim.

Or did you just "interpret" it this way?

[graciegirl]

I just took a ride by Hacienda in my golf cart. With the buildings removed it's surprising how large the lot it. There will be no need to take any holes away from the golf courses to build an apartment building or buildings.

Us too. We drove by on the way to Doctor's visit. I also wanted to remember just how close La Hacienda Regional Rec Center on Avenida is is to the torn down Hacienda Country Club on Morse.

People should also drive around the neighborhood just back of the assisted living on 466A. And also ON 466A to see that there is golf course, then Buena Vista and then more golf course.

I could be wrong. I am not a renter, but a lot of nice decent, everyday people rent apartments. They will be held to the same restrictions as other Villagers. No kids under 19 for more than 30 days in a calendar year. I don't know about lawn ornaments on their balcony porches. (That is supposed to be sarcastic humor)

We will see. It will happen. The property does not belong to anyone but the people who plan to build apartments on it. If that bothers people, there is probably someone ready to buy their house and live here.

We will see.

[rtrav711]

You can refer to the State of Connecticut Amended and Restated Property Report of the Villages dated 2003..... on page 16 of the report prepared by the Villages Developer it says ..paragraph 7..."The developer or his designee shall own and PERPETUALLY maintain the recreational facilities and grounds...".
Also in "The Villages ...Our Hometown" sales brochure it says "Play Free Golf for the rest of your life on all of our Picturesque Executive Golf Courses".. These items I have...but I understand there is other written material.
Hope this helps.

[dewilson58]

You can refer to the State of Connecticut Amended and Restated Property Report of the Villages dated 2003..... on page 16 of the report prepared by the Villages Developer it says ..paragraph 7..."The developer or his designee shall own and PERPETUALLY maintain the recreational facilities and grounds...".
Also in "The Villages ...Our Hometown" sales brochure it says "Play Free Golf for the rest of your life on all of our Picturesque Executive Golf Courses".. These items I have...but I understand there is other written material.
Hope this helps.


Fake News......................this is not what you stated in your prior post.

[Jayhawk]

"The developer or his designee shall own and PERPETUALLY maintain the recreational facilities and grounds...".

Restaurants are not Recreational facilities


Also in "The Villages ...Our Hometown" sales brochure it says "Play Free Golf for the rest of your life on all of our Picturesque Executive Golf Courses"..

Free golf is still honored. You walk with your own bag hand cart = no cost.

These items I have...but I understand there is other written material.

No one seems to have anything with the "promises" some are referencing. Are you "sure" they exist? Could be money in it for you.


Hope this helps.


See above.

[rtrav711]

Fake news...please explain.
On page 3 of the restated property report...which the developer prepared and states on the first page..."The
developer is responsible for for the accuracy and completeness of this report"....it states in paragraph two..
page 3 "All of the recreational facilities in The Villages, INCLUDING THE GOLF COURSES, swimming pools...etc....are initially owned and maintained by the developer..."
The definition of "perpetuate" (as noted on then page 16 as noted earlier) is "to continue indefinitely".
What that would mean to most folks....is that the developer in writing stated to the State Of Connecticut; that they (developer) would indefinitely maintain the golf courses and recreational facilities.
Please explain...fake news...

[Jayhawk]

Fake news...please explain.
On page 3 of the restated property report...which the developer prepared and states on the first page..."The
developer is responsible for for the accuracy and completeness of this report"....it states in paragraph two..
page 3 "All of the recreational facilities in The Villages, INCLUDING THE GOLF COURSES, swimming pools...etc....are initially owned and maintained by the developer..."
The definition of "perpetuate" (as noted on then page 16 as noted earlier) is "to continue indefinitely".
What that would mean to most folks....is that the developer in writing stated to the State Of Connecticut; that they (developer) would indefinitely maintain the golf courses and recreational facilities.
Please explain...fake news...

Doesn't it state "developer OR his designee?" That means the amenities when transferred from the developer go to a "designee" in legal terms.

Restaurants are NOT amenities or rec facilities.

What are you challenging?

[rtrav711]

When someone is appointed a designee, it does not relieve the entity who made the appointment of continued legal responsibility.
Secondly...as previously mentioned....it stated...in writing......in the 2003-2004 The Villages Our Hometown sales brochure ..." Have a cozy dinner at one of our country clubs. Each features a distinctive menu and ambiance from fine gourmet dining to Caribbean island fare"...Again....in writing that you requested, and ties in with the restated property report.

[dewilson58]

Fake news
...fake news...


Your statement: the developer in writing...noted all country club property with their restaurants...pools...tennis facilities...and so on would be available for a lifetime for property owners in The Villages.



They did not promise how many, or which facilities.

[rtrav711]

Suggest you contact the State of Connecticut or other States for a copy of the Restated property Report filed by the developer. In the Connecticut restated report...the 5 Championship courses are mentioned on page 3 paragraph 3 (included Hacienda); also question (c) on page 19 reflects the 5 courses as well as the then 13 nine hole courses; and again the executive and championship courses are mentioned on page 20 under item 17; and page 21 under recreation; and so on....
Hope this enlightens you.

[Jayhawk]

Suggest you contact the State of Connecticut or other States for a copy of the Restated property Report filed by the developer. In the Connecticut restated report...the 5 Championship courses are mentioned on page 3 paragraph 3 (included Hacienda); also question (c) on page 19 reflects the 5 courses as well as the then 13 nine hole courses; and again the executive and championship courses are mentioned on page 20 under item 17; and page 21 under recreation; and so on....
Hope this enlightens you.

Thank you for proving the document refers to golf courses (which remain), not country clubs (restaurants). It is what it is, and all your want-to ain't gonna change it.

The defense rests.

[rtrav711]

Not sure of what you are sharing.?????? The report refers to the five regulation courses...and then goes on to explain the CHAMPIONSHIP Priority memberships...etc on page 3. does the same on the other pages. The dining is self explanatory and written up in the developer's sales brochure.

And as an additional thought....and not sure how it plays to what they may do with the HH CC property....the restated report filed with the State of Connecticut ...under part VII...ADDITIONAL INFORMATION states under line number 37. How many units in each building? Developer's answer " One detached single-family home may be constructed on each lot in the Villages".and line 39 states..'The units are intended for and restricted solely to single-family home usage".

Just wonder what impact this might have with a multiplex building......when all new Villages owners were restricted to a single family unit. Is it a double standard ? And why impose restrictions and standards, if they are not to be followed.

Interesting !

[rtrav711]

Just as a follow up. Looked thru some of our closing material and found "The Villages Golf and Country Club Living" (dated...Revised 11/20/02)......"All Residents enjoy free Country Club Membership As a resident of the Villages you are automatically entitled to FREE membership in our country clubs"........and it goes on to say......"This free resident membership allows you to DINE in the country clubs,....etc.". Just another written sales tool manufactured by the developer.

[JSR22]

Just as a follow up. Looked thru some of our closing material and found "The Villages Golf and Country Club Living" (dated...Revised 11/20/02)......"All Residents enjoy free Country Club Membership As a resident of the Villages you are automatically entitled to FREE membership in our country clubs"........and it goes on to say......"This free resident membership allows you to DINE in the country clubs,....etc.". Just another written sales tool manufactured by the developer.

There are still "Country Clubs" to dine. A restaurant on a golf course IMO is not a Country Club. The restaurants are open to the public along with the golf courses. There is no membership.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Just as a follow up. Looked thru some of our closing material and found "The Villages Golf and Country Club Living" (dated...Revised 11/20/02)......"All Residents enjoy free Country Club Membership As a resident of the Villages you are automatically entitled to FREE membership in our country clubs"........and it goes on to say......"This free resident membership allows you to DINE in the country clubs,....etc.". Just another written sales tool manufactured by the developer.

Yup, a sales tool and and absolutely useless. They actually are no memberships to the country clubs. They are open to the public restaurants not private country clubs.

[tophcfa]

Or even better. It'll have golf course views on some sides, much to the disappointment of about 50 chronic complainers ( most of whom don't really have a dog in the fight, they just like to bitch. It's their hobby).

Well, it takes a much better person to voice concerns about current events effecting fellow Villagers lifestyles than it does to perpetually gripe about other people’s opinions.

[Dilligas]

It’s our understanding that it will be a 9 hole course
According to my plumber’s daughter who does nails in TV, your hair dresser’s cousin is wrong. All 36 holes remain.