My report on the proposed apartments in TV

[npwalters]

These are my thoughts and my version of the truth. If a fact is wrong I’m sure there will many to rush in and correct me. I am positive there will be a few that do not live close to the Haceinda Hills site that will disagree with most of what I say. I live about 2 miles from the HH site and am concerned because 1) my neighbors in TV are being disrespected and 2) I realize that if it is done at HH it can be done elsewhere and probably will be. For the lawyers: this is based on my recollections and opinion only.

I attended the meeting with the Special Master for Planning and Zoning for Sumter County on Monday night. I was there. Got there at 5:15 for the 6 o'clock meeting and we got he LAST 3 tickets available to actually get in the room where the meeting took place. The exterior at 5:50 (when I was allowed in) was overflowing. Many folks could not find a place to sit or stand and hear the speakers set up in the lobby and left in frustration. Bear in mind this was at Everglades Recreation Center. South of the turnpike, well away from the areas actually being discussed, and not golf cart accessible to any but those living south of the turnpike. A request was made that the next meeting with the commissioners be held at the Savannah Center. That request was not acknowledged.

The county had the “special master", the chief staff member of the Planning and Zoning Board, and a few staff. The Villages had a Orlando based lawyer, a hired traffic engineer, and VP for something (presumably development). The residents had all the residents that would fit into the venue. The "special master" had the charge to recommend approval/disapproval to the Sumter County Commissioners.

The first few hours were spent hearing argument for/against apartments in the Lake Sumter landing area. That centered around amending the language in the current zoning restrictions to “clarify” that apartments can be built in the existing spaces. No actual plan for where or what was required of the developer. The “special master” recommended approval of the change. NOTE THIS: the developer has identified every second story space in Sumter Landing Town Square as potential apartments. The recommended amendment does NOT restrict similar apartments to only Sumter Landing and does NOT limit it to only the upper floors.

The second half of the 6 hour long meeting discussed the former Hacienda Hills CC site. The proposal was to “clarify” the usage language to allow a multi-story (up to 50 feet) apartment complex on the HHCC site. The developer proposes to put up to 286 apartments, a “resort style” swimming pool, sports courts, a restaurant, walking paths, and parking for all the residents on this approximate 8 acre site. Their lawyer actually said all this with a straight face. The Sumter county “planner”, Mr. Holly, classified this site as LARGE in his statement of facts. He later acknowledged that it is classified it as large since the classification for all the sites in this area are based on SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING.

The special master was repeatedly asked to delay this decision until the facts were clearer. He admitted he had not actually visited HHCC site to view the existing neighborhoods. He was pled with to go lay eyes on the site before a decision was made. He did not acknowledge these requests and recommended approval.

There were at least 60 –I didn’t keep a count – residents that spoke. Some were armed with facts, some told their story of how the apartments are going to affect their homes and the small town Villages lifestyle they bought and planned to live for the remainder of their life, and a few were centered on ancillary issues such as the valid concern for increased traffic on Morse Blvd and lack of adequate water resources.

There were NO residents that spoke in favor. Sumter County sent letters to the 68 homes within 500 yards of the proposed apartments. 60 responded and ALL were opposed. This information was not offered by the staff and had to be pried out of Mr. Holly. He also stated he had received “numerous” emails on the subject but had not “had time” to read and classify them.

Both local papers stated there were catcalls from the residents. There were. Some of the things that the developers’ hired guns said in an effort to put lipstick on this pig were CLEARLY untrue and the residents reacted. Some of the things (such as the large tract) that Mr. Holly said were technically correct but were taken from data that applied “across The Villages” as a whole and were based on single family home data. Those comments were met with the derision they deserved.

The worst scorn was reserved for the current Morse generation. The speakers and audience members know full well that these apartments can and should be built in areas that are NOT fully developed. They think that greed is the prime motivator for the apartments. They know that many long term residents that bought into TV lifestyle are being totally disrespected. They believe with good cause that TV actions are causing the value of their homes to decrease dramatically. They KNOW that a 4 story apartment building literally surrounded by single family homes is NOT compatible use. Many quoted assurances from one on one conversations with Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse and KNOW these promises and assurances are being broken by the current generation. They KNOW the current generation is aware of all this and feel betrayed.

One speaker put it well at the end of his 3 minute allocation to speak ‘ There will be no statues built for the current Morse generation.

[birdiebill]

Please clarify one statement "that the developer proposes to build up to 286 apartments at the Hacienda Hills site". I thought he had 286 amenity units available for any/all apartments or independent living units. If that is so, he would use some of those amenity units at any Spanish Spring apartments, or Sumter Landing apartments, or Hacienda Hills site apartments, or for any independent living units. If so, 286 apartments would not be built at HH. Did the developer specify the exact number of apartments at the HH site?

[Stu from NYC]

Very interesting. Wonder if the special master is bought and paid for?

Where the meeting was held is rather revealing.

[BobnBev]

Very interesting. Wonder if the special master is bought and paid for?

Where the meeting was held is rather revealing.

It couldn't be more obvious, could it?

[Stu from NYC]

It couldn't be more obvious, could it?

In todays market place wonder what a special master goes for?

Is that a one time fix or do you get fixes for say a year.

[npwalters]

Please clarify one statement "that the developer proposes to build up to 286 apartments at the Hacienda Hills site". I thought he had 286 amenity units available for any/all apartments or independent living units. If that is so, he would use some of those amenity units at any Spanish Spring apartments, or Sumter Landing apartments, or Hacienda Hills site apartments, or for any independent living units. If so, 286 apartments would not be built at HH. Did the developer specify the exact number of apartments at the HH site?

No, they did not specify the number at Hacienda Hills or anywhere else. I said up to purposely as that is also what was said at the meeting. Could be less at Hacienda Hills and the remainder used somewhere else.

My understanding is that TV already owns the amenities south of 466. The 286 they were given by the AAC apply to north of 466.

[vintageogauge]

Over the years I went to many meetings/hearings such as this where residents were invited to speak their mind. Not once were there changes made based on the input from local residents. Similar to these "officials" at your meeting, in many cases never went to the site being discussed. I figured that I wasted about 100 hours of my life at these meetings/hearings and vowed never to get involved again as it is simply a waste of time. After the last meeting I attended where they were planning to build, and did build homes in a swamp not far from my property line, I sold my home and left town, I was not going to take a chance on having my property flooded when that swamp was built upon. In one way or another many of these "officials" have been bought and paid for. It's best just to let them go and enjoy life as it is.

[New Englander]

These are my thoughts and my version of the truth. If a fact is wrong I’m sure there will many to rush in and correct me. I am positive there will be a few that do not live close to the Haceinda Hills site that will disagree with most of what I say. I live about 2 miles from the HH site and am concerned because 1) my neighbors in TV are being disrespected and 2) I realize that if it is done at HH it can be done elsewhere and probably will be. For the lawyers: this is based on my recollections and opinion only.

I attended the meeting with the Special Master for Planning and Zoning for Sumter County on Monday night. I was there. Got there at 5:15 for the 6 o'clock meeting and we got he LAST 3 tickets available to actually get in the room where the meeting took place. The exterior at 5:50 (when I was allowed in) was overflowing. Many folks could not find a place to sit or stand and hear the speakers set up in the lobby and left in frustration. Bear in mind this was at Everglades Recreation Center. South of the turnpike, well away from the areas actually being discussed, and not golf cart accessible to any but those living south of the turnpike. A request was made that the next meeting with the commissioners be held at the Savannah Center. That request was not acknowledged.

The county had the “special master’, the chief staff member of the Planning and Zoning Board, and a few staff. The Villages had a Orlando based lawyer, a hired traffic engineer, and VP for something (presumably development). The residents had all the residents that would fit into the venue.

The first few hours were spent hearing argument for/against apartments in the Lake Sumter landing area. That centered around amending the language in the current zoning restrictions to “clarify” that apartments can be built in the existing spaces. No actual plan for where or what was required of the developer. The “special master” recommended approval of the change. NOTE THIS: the developer has identified every second story space in Sumter Landing Town Square as potential apartments. The recommended amendment does NOT restrict similar apartments to only Sumter Landing and does NOT limit it to only the upper floors.

The second half of the 6 hour long meeting discussed the former Hacienda Hills CC site. The proposal was to “clarify” the usage language to allow a multi-story (up to 50 feet) apartment complex on the HHCC site. The developer proposes to put up to 286 apartments, a “resort style” swimming pool, sports courts, a restaurant, walking paths, and parking for all the residents on this approximate 8 acre site. Their lawyer actually said all this with a straight face. The Sumter county “planner”, Mr. Holly, classified this site as LARGE in his statement of facts. He later acknowledged that it is classified it as large since the classification for all the sites in this area are based on SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING.

The special master was repeatedly asked to delay this decision until the facts were clearer. He admitted he had not actually visited HHCC site to view the existing neighborhoods. He was pled with to go lay eyes on the site before a decision was made. He did not acknowledge these requests and recommended approval.

There were at least 60 –I didn’t keep a count – residents that spoke. Some were armed with facts, some told their story of how the apartments are going to affect their homes and the small town Villages lifestyle they bought and planned to live for the remainder of their life, and a few were centered on ancillary issues such as the valid concern for increased traffic on Morse Blvd and lack of adequate water resources.

There were NO residents that spoke in favor. Sumter County sent letters to the 68 homes within 500 yards of the proposed apartments. 60 responded and ALL were opposed. This information was not offered by the staff and had to be pried out of Mr. Holly. He also stated he had received “numerous” emails on the subject but had not “had time” to read and classify them.

Both local papers stated there were catcalls from the residents. There were. Some of the things that the developers’ hired guns said in an effort to put lipstick on this pig were CLEARLY untrue and the residents reacted. Some of the things (such as the large tract) that Mr. Holly said were technically correct but were taken from data that applied “across The Villages” as a whole and were based on single family home data. Those comments were met with the derision they deserved.

The worst scorn was reserved for the current Morse generation. The speakers and audience members know full well that these apartments can and should be built in areas that are NOT fully developed. They think that greed is the prime motivator for the apartments. They know that many long term residents that bought into TV lifestyle are being totally disrespected. They believe with good cause that TV actions are causing the value of their homes to decrease dramatically. They KNOW that a 4 story apartment building literally surrounded by single family homes is NOT compatible use. Many quoted assurances from one on one conversations with Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse and KNOW these promises and assurances are being broken by the current generation. They KNOW the current generation is aware of all this and feel betrayed.

One speaker put it well at the end of his 3 minute allocation to speak ‘ There will be no statues built for the current Morse generation.

Excellent post!

[John41]

Thank you for an excellent post and attending the meeting. When the new Sumter commissioners take office the remaining puppets will be removed from office. The residents have won battles against the developer before. My opinion is that no squares are planned south of Rt 44, so the developer will turn all the existing squares into apartments to avoid sales competition in the new areas south of Rt 44. Also no money will be spent to maintain the clubhouses above Rt 44 so they can be demolished for apartments. There is a lot more being hidden from residents in my opinion.

[asianthree]

OP thank you for your time and effort for those who could not get into the meeting. My hope was those directly effected could be in attendance.
We as a few others have bid on a home, that would be in that 500 yard range, actually about half of that. We pulled our bid.
Sadly if these apartments do go through, and the amendments are changed, any ones home could be looking at a new 4 story apartment building, if they are rented 100%

I do get that some who don’t oppose think it’s great, but your pretty view that you paid for dearly could change in a stroke of a pen. After all a golf course is just commercial land.

[golfing eagles]

Thank you for an excellent post and attending the meeting. When the new Sumter commissioners take office the remaining puppets will be removed from office. The residents have won battles against the developer before. My opinion is that no squares are planned south of Rt 44, so the developer will turn all the existing squares into apartments to avoid sales competition in the new areas south of Rt 44. Also no money will be spent to maintain the clubhouses above Rt 44 so they can be demolished for apartments. There is a lot more being hidden from residents in my opinion.

So it's your opinion that all 12 country clubhouses north of 44 will be demolished for apartments????? Reality check much?????

[Stu from NYC]

So it's your opinion that all 12 country clubhouses north of 44 will be demolished for apartments????? Reality check much?????

We have no clue what the developers really are planning.

My guess is they will be building some amount of apartments and if successful and they make money they build more and more until it affects the sale prices of new housing.

[dewilson58]

We have no clue what the developers really are planning.

My guess is they will be building some amount of apartments and if successful and they make money they build more and more until it affects the sale prices of new housing.


When the Developer built the first house, all those living in trailers were up in arms....protested and chanted, "There goes the neighborhood" and "He promised."


:ohdear:

[asianthree]

When the Developer built the first house, all those living in trailers were up in arms....protested and chanted, "There goes the neighborhood" and "He promised."


:ohdear:

That’s not the story that my aunts and uncles told us when they watched the first houses built. It was the amenities that came with the new builds, they were so happy to see.

So you have a different story when you watched the new area with shopping and such. Did you protest with them?

[dewilson58]

That’s not the story that my aunts and uncles told us when they watched the first houses built. It was the amenities that came with the new builds, they were so happy to see.

So you have a different story when you watched the new area with shopping and such. Did you protest with them?


Sarcasm Sheldon, sarcasm.

[asianthree]

Sarcasm Sheldon, sarcasm.

You didn’t post the sign:a040: without an emoji you have to post the sign.

[dewilson58]

You didn’t post the sign:a040: without an emoji you have to post the sign.


I wish that had an emoji

[graciegirl]

We have no clue what the developers really are planning.

My guess is they will be building some amount of apartments and if successful and they make money they build more and more until it affects the sale prices of new housing.

I think I remember you just moved here this year? We have been here since 2007. I don't see any reason why the Morse family would take to shooting themselves in the foot. Up until now they have made wise decisions. At one time I sensed that the family weren't all on board with going forward but they did continue. Those who harbor good feelings toward them will find good reasons and those others will call it greed.

I am not a renter. Really not fond of renters, but people rent their homes out here right and left. It is a fact of life. Many villagers buy homes in order to rent them out. Renting is allowed and will happen. I am of the opinion that it will not harm anyone's property values, but other people think differently. I think. I hope that when these much smaller version of Brownwood Lofts are built and people rent the upstairs at Spanish Springs it will be an..........Oh Well. No big deal.

[npwalters]

I think I remember you just moved here this year? We have been here since 2007. I don't see any reason why the Morse family would take to shooting themselves in the foot. Up until now they have made wise decisions. At one time I sensed that the family weren't all on board with going forward but they did continue. Those who harbor good feelings toward them will find good reasons and those others will call it greed.

I am not a renter. Really not fond of renters, but people rent their homes out here right and left. It is a fact of life. Many villagers buy homes in order to rent them out. Renting is allowed and will happen. I am of the opinion that it will not harm anyone's property values, but other people think differently. I think. I hope that when these much smaller version of Brownwood Lofts are built and people rent the upstairs at Spanish Springs it will be an..........Oh Well. No big deal.

I bought my home here about 5 years ago. I've lived here either as a snowbird or full time since. It doesn't take me (2020 - 2007 = 13) 13 years to figure out what is happening. I think I see it better than you do currently.

[Stu from NYC]

I think I remember you just moved here this year? We have been here since 2007. I don't see any reason why the Morse family would take to shooting themselves in the foot. Up until now they have made wise decisions. At one time I sensed that the family weren't all on board with going forward but they did continue. Those who harbor good feelings toward them will find good reasons and those others will call it greed.

I am not a renter. Really not fond of renters, but people rent their homes out here right and left. It is a fact of life. Many villagers buy homes in order to rent them out. Renting is allowed and will happen. I am of the opinion that it will not harm anyone's property values, but other people think differently. I think. I hope that when these much smaller version of Brownwood Lofts are built and people rent the upstairs at Spanish Springs it will be an..........Oh Well. No big deal.

I certainly hope you are correct. This is not something that I want my suspicions to be right about.

I am concerned that this meeting was held as far away as possible not to mention difficult to get to for the people at Hacienda. The way they tried to rig the recent election for commissioners in Sumter started me thinking on this path.

[golfing eagles]

I bought my home here about 5 years ago. I've lived here either as a snowbird or full time since. It doesn't take me (2020 - 2007 = 13) 13 years to figure out what is happening. I think I see it better than you do currently.

I wouldn't count on that

[Laker14]

So it's your opinion that all 12 country clubhouses north of 44 will be demolished for apartments????? Reality check much?????

that would never happen. Unless it were found to be more profitable than maintaining them as country club restaurants. Then it would happen in a heartbeat. Why wouldn't it? It's their property, and they have every right to maximize profits. Right?

[jimbomaybe]

that would never happen. Unless it were found to be more profitable than maintaining them as country club restaurants. Then it would happen in a heartbeat. Why wouldn't it? It's their property, and they have every right to maximize profits. Right?
No they don't ,anymore than the right to build a waste dump next door to your home, apartments can only reduce the property value of your home, that is why zoning laws and restriction are in place across the country, its your home,your property ,can you do whatever you want? I have recently moved here and if apartments start going up I think I will look elsewhere. I have lived in large cities and have seen homeowners fight changes in zoning to protect their property values and have seen what happen when developers have their way, you will note that no apartments will be built in the new sections, at least until the developer has sold all the property.

[John41]

So it's your opinion that all 12 country clubhouses north of 44 will be demolished for apartments????? Reality check much?????

How many times do you have to be hit in head to see the next one coming??? As soon as major maintenance is required on a clubhouse it will be demolished for apartments. Maybe a few clubhouses will be maintained for ad brochures. In the 14 years we have lived here we have seen a lot of dirty tricks on the part on the developer, and he didn’t usually win because residents didn’t just roll over and hope for the best.

[donassaid]

So much for "representative" government. Amazing that elected officials can be this tone deaf to the will of the people.

[Worldseries27]

When the president of the usa, governor and ag of florida, and all their local minions show up in tv in the eventual campaign stop, i suggest all those who are upset about this issue show up with their own leaflets and signs and put democracy in action instead of merely venting on this thread. Governor mario cuomo, a small queens, nyc local lawyer made his fame fighting for a queens residential neighborhood to limit the size and scope of proposed multi family housing. I'm sure there are other ambitious individuals around who can see the same opportunities to benefit all involved.

[npwalters]

So much for "representative" government. Amazing that elected officials can be this tone deaf to the will of the people.

To be clear and a point I should have emphasized in my original post. I wish I had clarified that up front.

The Sumter County representatives at Monday's meeting are not elected officials. They do not have the authority to approve or deny these actions. They are the body charged with making a recommendation to the Sumter County commissioners.

The commissioners will hear public comment and vote in October. They ARE representatives of the people and subject to reelection. Three of the five are lame ducks.

[mrrmauu]

For what it’s worth. My wife and I were at the Trillium pool the first few days it was open. We met several new residents of the apartments. Guess what. They were all current Villagers that wanted to downsize. One was a Villager who went from a Villa to an independent living facility. The apartments gave her the ability to have a more normal Villager life and she was thrilled to be back.

If you look at the Villages you will see the ultimate 55+ lifestyle in the world that is relatively affordable. This is due to the vision of the developers, from Mr. Schwartz to the current generation. There is a reason the new homes are sold faster than the developer can build them. People want to be here. If you look at everything here you will see the most well planned community in the world. Why is there such distain for the developers?

[rtrav711]

This topic has popped up before...and I posted the following comments on the last one. As it states, the developer was required to put in writing how their property was developed...and how to was to be developed going forward. It would be difficult if not impossible for the developer, to rescind what he/she presented to a legal body such as a State. Going forward...it is also apparent their promises are in writing to those who depended on them when purchasing their home in The Villages. I am not an attorney....but I find it difficult to believe that those effected would not be able to sustain a Class Action suit.
The big problem...is no one will really sustain a real estate value loss until the developer has effected the changes. It should be kept in mind; just because a zoning commission, etc., approves a zoning or building change...doesn't eliminate one's written promise or written vision of how a piece of property is to be developed.
In addition...the developer may also be exposed to a punitive suit....which in many cases far exceeds the value of the compensatory damages.



Déjà vu…..what comes around-goes around.
Recently responded to several comments made re the changes at Hacienda CC.
To reinterate…it was necessary for the developer to file with various States a Property Report which stated on its’ face “The developer is responsible for the Accuracy and completeness of this report”.
The one filed with the State of Connecticut was a 34 page detailed document, revised in 2003.
My personal initiative to purchase in The Villages was partially dependent on this report ;(some would refer to this as "due diligence") which in writing promised a “vision” of how The Villages were developed to that point; and what the developer was to do in the future.
There have been hundreds, if not thousands of purchases in The Villages, by individuals who were led to believe what was presented to them in writing.
There is absolutely no problem for someone to revise a plan going forward in a new area…but there is a problem for one to significantly change what was a written promise and now proves detrimental to one who had depended in it.
Additionally…there has been many pieces of sales material handed out by the developer over a period of time that states the same objectives, etc..
E.g…..Under additional information on the Restated Report filed with the Connecticut authorities…..it states on page 32 ..”40. Describe type of building, such as high rise, cluster, garden, etc….The answer is “The Villages is currently developed in two sections as “units” and “villas”. This follows the previous remark “39. …..The units are intended for and restricted solely to single family home usage”. It does not say anywhere in the report, that apartments will be part of the Villages….nor does it say anywhere in the report that multiplex buildings will become part of the Villages…nor does
it say anywhere in the report, any reference to do with specifically with apartments at Spanish Springs or Sumter Landing.
No one should have any problem….going forward on new expansion areas of The Villages as to what is to be built....as it's going forward you are made aware of the plans.
It’s when you back up and take something away…or radically change what you have promised in writing…that causes a problem.
So what changes have been made against written promises on an Official document in this case filed with the State of Connecticut. The elimination of the pool, pro shop, tennis courts, dining facilities etc., of Hacienda CC which are specifically mentioned in the report, (eg..page 3 paragraph 3,page 20 under #17,page 21 under #18, and so on). This not only effects the adjacent homeowners….but also the greater area surrounding The HH CC …. For the hundreds of homes that considered this course their CC because
of their location to the course.
What other changes have/are occurring …… closing of the restaurant at Chula Vista; restaurant closing at El Santiago… the closing of Katie Belle’s which was a written promise of Resident Dining in a 2004 sales brochure given prospective property buyers….the proposed apartments at Katie Belles….proposed apartments on other Spanish Spring property…proposed apartments at Sumter Landing…and so on.
There has been talk of a Class Action Lawsuit by several groups, for compensatory Damages, on those several hundred homes that may be effected by the complex that is proposed at the HH CC location.
On speculation…say the developers are making 20% on a home…and they are averaging or have averaged about 5,000 homes a year…at about $300,000 a home sales price…the profit would roughly be $300,000,000. Again, this is speculative…and I have no basis for the profit margin…but just a guess. My point would be…that even if it’s half of that….to actually lose 5, 6 or even $700,000 on the promises they have made…. (restaurants…CC..etc)….would literally be nothing…and allow them to maintain what they promised in writing.
In addition to a compensatory Class Action suit…there is a question as to whether or not the developers would be exposed to a Punitive Damage count. Generally, punitive damage judgments involve a tort claim, or contract claim Eg… insurance policy. The problems here arise out of contractual purchases,
based on written promises.
Punitive Damages, or exemplary damages, are damages assessed in order to punish the defendant for outrageous conduct and/or to reform or deter the defendant and others from engaging in conduct similar to that which formed the basis of the lawsuit.
I am not an attorney…but have read about these substantial judgments. Given the importance… of filing a detailed property report with requiring official state entities…the content of these reports cannot be viewed lightly.
In this situation, if the breach of written promise is so egregious, to amount to a breach of the implied good faith and fair dealing; there may be a basis for a punitive damage award. Again….I am not an attorney…and what I have concluded may be all wet…but it might be a consideration for those directly effected by the developer’s actions.
We moved to the Villages many years ago...and will remain regardless of what changes will be made.
It still is a special place...but am disappointed that written promises that have been made are being
broken,

[Laker14]

No they don't ,anymore than the right to build a waste dump next door to your home, apartments can only reduce the property value of your home, that is why zoning laws and restriction are in place across the country, its your home,your property ,can you do whatever you want? I have recently moved here and if apartments start going up I think I will look elsewhere. I have lived in large cities and have seen homeowners fight changes in zoning to protect their property values and have seen what happen when developers have their way, you will note that no apartments will be built in the new sections, at least until the developer has sold all the property.
actually Jimbo, I agree with you. However, it seems that they ARE getting away with doing whatever they want. Some of the same people who claim that the developers SHOULD be able to do whatever they want are the same people who think it's unthinkable that they would do it again with the other CCs. They know how to get what they want, and they usually do. I don't think it's unthinkable at all that if the current plan for apartments proves profitable, they wouldn't do it again, and again.

[ldovermiller]

Great OP!! I think it is time to stop talking, hire and attorney, file an injunction and go to court. This is the only way to handle the
situation.

[FromNY]

Just asking,did this overcrowded meeting mean no social distancing? Were masks worn by everyone?

[wamley]

I guess the sales office could be part of that apartment complex in LSL, since most of the sales could be handled in Brownwood and south of the turnpike.

[Travelhunter]

This topic has popped up before...and I posted the following comments on the last one. As it states, the developer was required to put in writing how their property was developed...and how to was to be developed going forward. It would be difficult if not impossible for the developer, to rescind what he/she presented to a legal body such as a State. Going forward...it is also apparent their promises are in writing to those who depended on them when purchasing their home in The Villages. I am not an attorney....but I find it difficult to believe that those effected would not be able to sustain a Class Action suit.
The big problem...is no one will really sustain a real estate value loss until the developer has effected the changes. It should be kept in mind; just because a zoning commission, etc., approves a zoning or building change...doesn't eliminate one's written promise or written vision of how a piece of property is to be developed.
In addition...the developer may also be exposed to a punitive suit....which in many cases far exceeds the value of the compensatory damages.



Déjà vu…..what comes around-goes around.
Recently responded to several comments made re the changes at Hacienda CC.
To reinterate…it was necessary for the developer to file with various States a Property Report which stated on its’ face “The developer is responsible for the Accuracy and completeness of this report”.
The one filed with the State of Connecticut was a 34 page detailed document, revised in 2003.
My personal initiative to purchase in The Villages was partially dependent on this report ;(some would refer to this as "due diligence") which in writing promised a “vision” of how The Villages were developed to that point; and what the developer was to do in the future.
There have been hundreds, if not thousands of purchases in The Villages, by individuals who were led to believe what was presented to them in writing.
There is absolutely no problem for someone to revise a plan going forward in a new area…but there is a problem for one to significantly change what was a written promise and now proves detrimental to one who had depended in it.
Additionally…there has been many pieces of sales material handed out by the developer over a period of time that states the same objectives, etc..
E.g…..Under additional information on the Restated Report filed with the Connecticut authorities…..it states on page 32 ..”40. Describe type of building, such as high rise, cluster, garden, etc….The answer is “The Villages is currently developed in two sections as “units” and “villas”. This follows the previous remark “39. …..The units are intended for and restricted solely to single family home usage”. It does not say anywhere in the report, that apartments will be part of the Villages….nor does it say anywhere in the report that multiplex buildings will become part of the Villages…nor does
it say anywhere in the report, any reference to do with specifically with apartments at Spanish Springs or Sumter Landing.
No one should have any problem….going forward on new expansion areas of The Villages as to what is to be built....as it's going forward you are made aware of the plans.
It’s when you back up and take something away…or radically change what you have promised in writing…that causes a problem.
So what changes have been made against written promises on an Official document in this case filed with the State of Connecticut. The elimination of the pool, pro shop, tennis courts, dining facilities etc., of Hacienda CC which are specifically mentioned in the report, (eg..page 3 paragraph 3,page 20 under #17,page 21 under #18, and so on). This not only effects the adjacent homeowners….but also the greater area surrounding The HH CC …. For the hundreds of homes that considered this course their CC because
of their location to the course.
What other changes have/are occurring …… closing of the restaurant at Chula Vista; restaurant closing at El Santiago… the closing of Katie Belle’s which was a written promise of Resident Dining in a 2004 sales brochure given prospective property buyers….the proposed apartments at Katie Belles….proposed apartments on other Spanish Spring property…proposed apartments at Sumter Landing…and so on.
There has been talk of a Class Action Lawsuit by several groups, for compensatory Damages, on those several hundred homes that may be effected by the complex that is proposed at the HH CC location.
On speculation…say the developers are making 20% on a home…and they are averaging or have averaged about 5,000 homes a year…at about $300,000 a home sales price…the profit would roughly be $300,000,000. Again, this is speculative…and I have no basis for the profit margin…but just a guess. My point would be…that even if it’s half of that….to actually lose 5, 6 or even $700,000 on the promises they have made…. (restaurants…CC..etc)….would literally be nothing…and allow them to maintain what they promised in writing.
In addition to a compensatory Class Action suit…there is a question as to whether or not the developers would be exposed to a Punitive Damage count. Generally, punitive damage judgments involve a tort claim, or contract claim Eg… insurance policy. The problems here arise out of contractual purchases,
based on written promises.
Punitive Damages, or exemplary damages, are damages assessed in order to punish the defendant for outrageous conduct and/or to reform or deter the defendant and others from engaging in conduct similar to that which formed the basis of the lawsuit.
I am not an attorney…but have read about these substantial judgments. Given the importance… of filing a detailed property report with requiring official state entities…the content of these reports cannot be viewed lightly.
In this situation, if the breach of written promise is so egregious, to amount to a breach of the implied good faith and fair dealing; there may be a basis for a punitive damage award. Again….I am not an attorney…and what I have concluded may be all wet…but it might be a consideration for those directly effected by the developer’s actions.
We moved to the Villages many years ago...and will remain regardless of what changes will be made.
It still is a special place...but am disappointed that written promises that have been made are being
broken,
Well said:
You state that you are not a lawyer. The path forward you describe seems to be a well thought out and winning strategy If you had pursued the law you would have been a great one
To all, this is the way to initiate change

[wamley]

Easy to turn 27 hole course into 18 and build on the vacated 9 holes.

[joseppe]

I get why everyone's upset over this, but I don't understand the thinking that complaining, arguing or fighting it is going to change it. Those promises of a perceived lifestyle were never put in writing and are not defensible. I'd say the only reasonable option you have is to either accept its going to happen or leave the Villages before your property values and lifestyle are infringed upon. Those are the things you can change, the coming of apartments you probably cannot change.

[npwalters]

Just asking,did this overcrowded meeting mean no social distancing? Were masks worn by everyone?

The meeting room was socially distanced (not overcrowded). There were many more residents that tried to attend than the venue could support. All wore masks except when speaking.

[72lions]

Over the years I went to many meetings/hearings such as this where residents were invited to speak their mind. Not once were there changes made based on the input from local residents. Similar to these "officials" at your meeting, in many cases never went to the site being discussed. I figured that I wasted about 100 hours of my life at these meetings/hearings and vowed never to get involved again as it is simply a waste of time. After the last meeting I attended where they were planning to build, and did build homes in a swamp not far from my property line, I sold my home and left town, I was not going to take a chance on having my property flooded when that swamp was built upon. In one way or another many of these "officials" have been bought and paid for. It's best just to let them go and enjoy life as it is.

Your property never flooded, did it?

[npwalters]

actually Jimbo, I agree with you. However, it seems that they ARE getting away with doing whatever they want. Some of the same people who claim that the developers SHOULD be able to do whatever they want are the same people who think it's unthinkable that they would do it again with the other CCs. They know how to get what they want, and they usually do. I don't think it's unthinkable at all that if the current plan for apartments proves profitable, they wouldn't do it again, and again.

This is what Mr. Holly said in an unscripted moment. I'm paraphrasing this from memory .Speaking about the 8 acre Hacieida Hills site "after all the developer owns that land. They can do whatever they want with it. They could have placed a 100,000 ft retail store on that site and the traffic would be much worse".

Yes, the chief staff member of Planning and Zoning for Sumter County said this. This was after the period for public comment so no citizen had the opportunity to ask him if a retail store was actually an approved use at that site.

[Scorpyo]

Sarcasm Sheldon, sarcasm.
That was utterly cruel Leonard. Do you know how incompressible your statement is to the non fan? Go drink a glass of milk.

[caseycasebeer]

Excellent comments and strategy suggestions. As mentioned, no doubt there is some enterprising attorney drafting an injunction as we ‘speak. If nothing else an injunction should permit newly elected commissioners to deal with the situation in a more dispassionate manner.

A SIX HOUR public meeting ... Yeoww! I got there about 5:30, couldn’t be seated (“...tickets? What tickets??”) so I waited with the herd outside the official meeting room. After about a half hour I decided to leave (I have a hearing problem [my problem, not their’s] so I left at 6:35. Thank Goodness ... SIX HOURS, Yeoww!

[Worldseries27]

the meeting room was socially distanced (not overcrowded). There were many more residents that tried to attend than the venue could support. All wore masks except when speaking.
therapy fee

[Worldseries27]

Great answer to bb

[Rzepecki]

Very interesting. Wonder if the special master is bought and paid for?

Where the meeting was held is rather revealing.

The BOCC meetings are regularly held at the Everglades Regional Recreation Center.

Since the BOCC Works for the entire county and not just TV, this location is more convenient for the entire county.

[islandtiempo]

OP, thank you for your informed opinion and effort to educate us.

[graciegirl]

Easy to turn 27 hole course into 18 and build on the vacated 9 holes.

Yes. And they could build a high rise apartment building for college students too but "THEY" won't.

Just a bunch of pot stirring by people who want to overthrow this nice CDD government for nefarious reasons, in my opinion.

[72lions]

No they don't ,anymore than the right to build a waste dump next door to your home, apartments can only reduce the property value of your home, that is why zoning laws and restriction are in place across the country, its your home,your property ,can you do whatever you want? I have recently moved here and if apartments start going up I think I will look elsewhere. I have lived in large cities and have seen homeowners fight changes in zoning to protect their property values and have seen what happen when developers have their way, you will note that no apartments will be built in the new sections, at least until the developer has sold all the property.

No apartments In the South yet but you do have the opportunity to purchase a home with a carport. Give me apartments any day.

[Roberta Forcina]

I think our comments are very well taken. It is clear that the Villages has no thought or concern as to what the residents think or want. Since we pay amenity fees, I am wondering if according to Florida State Law that these people who are proposing these apartments etc., have to take a referendum vote from the people as to what they want. If this has to be done, clearly this was not. Perhaps one should contact the Attorney General's office and look into this matter.
As well, the Villages posts that there are so many clubs etc to join. With all due respect, even now, when one goes to a recreation center to join a class, many times you have to get there at least one hour before so that you can get into the class. This is plain ridiculous. I personally gave up and do my own thing. Now, they want to build even more apartments. How do they plan to accommodate these people and still offer access to these activities. It will be a disaster. As well, the squares will become inaccessible. I do believe that there is a law that states only so many people can congregate in one area otherwise it becomes a safety hazard.
The Villages is not what is was at one time. The theme of the friendliest town has gone right out the window. It is becoming overcrowded due to the greed of the owners and their relationship with the developers. It is a shame. I tell anyone I know who is considering moving here to look elsewhere. I would leave here in a minute if my husband would agree.
The voices of the Villagers need to be heard and not disregarded. Write to newspapers outside. Let others know what is happening. We all moved here for what it once offered. This is no longer the case. Very sad.

[collie1228]

I think I remember you just moved here this year? We have been here since 2007. I don't see any reason why the Morse family would take to shooting themselves in the foot. Up until now they have made wise decisions. At one time I sensed that the family weren't all on board with going forward but they did continue. Those who harbor good feelings toward them will find good reasons and those others will call it greed.

I am not a renter. Really not fond of renters, but people rent their homes out here right and left. It is a fact of life. Many villagers buy homes in order to rent them out. Renting is allowed and will happen. I am of the opinion that it will not harm anyone's property values, but other people think differently. I think. I hope that when these much smaller version of Brownwood Lofts are built and people rent the upstairs at Spanish Springs it will be an..........Oh Well. No big deal.

Gracie, I hope the developer doesn't build an apartment complex less than 1/2 mile from your home so that the traffic, already dangerous, increases significantly, to the point where a left hand turn onto Morse to get your mail will become nearly impossible. But that's what they are doing to my neighborhood.

[Jazzman]

Yes. And they could build a high rise apartment building for college students too but "THEY" won't.

Just a bunch of pot stirring by people who want to overthrow this nice CDD government for nefarious reasons, in my opinion.

Based on this and prior comments you would be okay if this happened in your neighborhood and lived in close proximity to let’s say a three or four story maximum height building within sight line from your home.

[EviesGP]

This is what Mr. Holly said in an unscripted moment. I'm paraphrasing this from memory .Speaking about the 8 acre Hacieida Hills site "after all the developer owns that land. They can do whatever they want with it. They could have placed a 100,000 ft retail store on that site and the traffic would be much worse".

Yes, the chief staff member of Planning and Zoning for Sumter County said this. This was after the period for public comment so no citizen had the opportunity to ask him if a retail store was actually an approved use at that site.

When you(they) say 8 acres, are you(they) referring to the entire CC property(i.e. all 27 holes, along with the CC), or just the CC itself? I ask because I am more concerned if they opt to convert or remove some golf courses?! That would be a trend that I would be disturbed about. Thanks, Nick!

[72lions]

The OP seems to have documented the meeting effectively so no quarrel there. My question is why the presumption that these changes, if implemented, would gravely alter the lifestyle of TV? Is it because they would be rented and not owned? There are units in Spanish Springs and Glenview that function very similar to apartments but are owned privately. It is reported that 80% of new renters with 12 month leases in The Lofts of Brownwood are previous owners in TV. Are these people going to ruin anyone’s life style? Is this worse than thousands of villas purchased specifically as income producing property catering to short term RENTERS. I think not.

Perhaps the OP is simply concerned about the handful of existing residents who actually view this property. And yes, the number is very, very small. Of course such changes are unfortunate for these few, but will it really be that much worse than looking out your lanai and seeing the former HH? The added benefit will be a new restaurant open to all which should satisfy all who complained the HH restaurant was closed. I’m sure the hundreds of golfers there daily will welcome the chance to grab a bite or a beer after the round instead of heading the LSL of SS.

There is a need not driven by the developer but by seniors who live TV who choose to eliminate the risk of an economic downturn, have no maintenance, can predict their living expenses more accurately and wish to congregate with others of like minds.

Let it go. Enjoy the time you have left.

[graciegirl]

Gracie, I hope the developer doesn't build an apartment complex less than 1/2 mile from your home so that the traffic, already dangerous, increases significantly, to the point where a left hand turn onto Morse to get your mail will become nearly impossible. But that's what they are doing to my neighborhood.

Some people in our Village begin turning right as soon as the snowbirds start returning in droves. Some make a U turn and head back west as soon as it gets real busy and have for many years.

I sometimes say bad things about snowbirds, under my breath. But I don't mean them.

The "developer" it appears is building on the site of a business that failed, using a space to make a profit, which is not wrong at all. It may be a mess, with traffic problems, and maybe not. It will happen, and then we will all see. I know for sure that this constant disparagement isn't doing The Villages any good and I really wonder exactly WHAT is behind it. I don't like what I am thinking.

We will see eventually.

[jimbomaybe]

Yes. And they could build a high rise apartment building for college students too but "THEY" won't.

Just a bunch of pot stirring by people who want to overthrow this nice CDD government for nefarious reasons, in my opinion.
With all due respect, if you "know" what they will do you not only can read their minds but see into the future, they are running a business , the bottom line is the bottom line, they will protect your interests as long as and to the extent that those interests coincide, they know what they are doing and they plan farther into the future with more insight than the individual home owner. Can anyone show me where and when any developed single family community has benefited from the introduction of rental units? Yes change is always with us, but the people opposing this are trying to protect their investment in their home, what possible "nefarious" reason could they have?

[pauld315]

Is this worse than thousands of villas purchased specifically as income producing property catering to short term RENTERS. I think not.



.

Two wrongs don't equal a right. In my opinion, the absolute worst problem in The Villages is that there are no rental restrictions. You would be hard pressed to find any other 55+ community certainly in Florida and most likely in the country that allows that.

[graciegirl]

Based on this and prior comments you would be okay if this happened in your neighborhood and lived in close proximity to let’s say a three or four story maximum height building within sight line from your home.

Our village is smack dab on 466 and we have maintained our property values.

[MandoMan]

Thank you for an excellent post and attending the meeting. When the new Sumter commissioners take office the remaining puppets will be removed from office. The residents have won battles against the developer before. My opinion is that no squares are planned south of Rt 44, so the developer will turn all the existing squares into apartments to avoid sales competition in the new areas south of Rt 44. Also no money will be spent to maintain the clubhouses above Rt 44 so they can be demolished for apartments. There is a lot more being hidden from residents in my opinion.

My house backs onto a four square mile section in the middle of The Villages where currently there are retention ponds and a few houses with stables and pasture. I’m wondering if that huge piece of land will be turned into apartments and condos for 10,000 people.

Back about five or six years ago, the state university where I taught proposed to build a fancy new classroom and office building for the English, History, and Math departments. There were a number of meetings between the administration and the faculty. The faculty argued about endless things, such as how big their offices would be, what color their desks would be, how big the classrooms would be. Finally the administration threw up their hands in disgust and canceled the project and told us we could stay where we are. Actually, that was fine with me—I didn’t think the building we had was all that bad. Complaining about new apartments doesn’t mean that if we won this fight, we would get a nice new clubhouse and restaurant and pool. We could just be left with rubble, or a parking lot.

[Laker14]

I don't understand the enmity towards renters. The issue is not if the person sleeping under the roof owns or rents, but rather, the density of units, given the infrastructure. Every dwelling was built to house someone, pay their share of the amenities and infrastructure costs, and in return for that, use the amenities and infrastructure.
If things are getting too crowded, it is not the fault of the homeowner, or the renter, but rather, the fault of whoever overbuilt. It is inconsistent to bemoan the presence of renters, and the overcrowding of amenities due to renters, and not feel betrayed by the shift from single family use to more densely populated apartment complexes.

[CFrance]

Over the years I went to many meetings/hearings such as this where residents were invited to speak their mind. Not once were there changes made based on the input from local residents. Similar to these "officials" at your meeting, in many cases never went to the site being discussed. I figured that I wasted about 100 hours of my life at these meetings/hearings and vowed never to get involved again as it is simply a waste of time. After the last meeting I attended where they were planning to build, and did build homes in a swamp not far from my property line, I sold my home and left town, I was not going to take a chance on having my property flooded when that swamp was built upon. In one way or another many of these "officials" have been bought and paid for. It's best just to let them go and enjoy life as it is.
"It's best just to let them go and enjoy life as it is." This from someone who sold and left. Based on what you did, how can you justify your statement?

[quietpine]

Where is the usual chorus of “if you don’t like it you can move”? Or “this is capitalism, the developer has the right to develop his property as he sees fit”? Or “government is the problem”? Does anyone really believe the Morse family is responsible for your “lifestyle”? Hey folks “The Villages” is a trademark, made to sell and sell quickly. “The Villages lifestyle” is a marketing slogan repeated by a chorus of shills, that’s us. Every apartment built will be rented to people who want the lifestyle without the burdens of home ownership, what’s wrong with that? Or you could move!

[Buckeye Bob]

Thank you for an excellent post and attending the meeting. When the new Sumter commissioners take office the remaining puppets will be removed from office. The residents have won battles against the developer before. My opinion is that no squares are planned south of Rt 44, so the developer will turn all the existing squares into apartments to avoid sales competition in the new areas south of Rt 44. Also no money will be spent to maintain the clubhouses above Rt 44 so they can be demolished for apartments. There is a lot more being hidden from residents in my opinion.


I believe the rec centers are amenities that are owned by the districts north of 44. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

[ctmurray]

Please clarify one statement "that the developer proposes to build up to 286 apartments at the Hacienda Hills site". I thought he had 286 amenity units available for any/all apartments or independent living units. If that is so, he would use some of those amenity units at any Spanish Spring apartments, or Sumter Landing apartments, or Hacienda Hills site apartments, or for any independent living units. If so, 286 apartments would not be built at HH. Did the developer specify the exact number of apartments at the HH site?
In fact when they announced the apartment proposal for the old Katie Belle's, they mentioned they would use some of the amenity units to those apartments. I think the specific plan for the apartments has not been laid out.

[Buckeye Bob]

Excellent post.

[merrymini]

If you pay for a view and they change it, it affects the value of your view and then the value of the home. It is stupid to state otherwise. Get a lawyer and hang em up to buy time. But remember, they have a lot more money than you do. Maybe just enough time for the new Commissioners to take their seats.

[dewilson58]

If you pay for a view and they change it, it affects the value of your view and then the value of the home. It is stupid to state otherwise.


They paid $5k or $10k for the view...................they have and will recap what they paid ten fold.
:boxing2:

Ten steps forward, one step back for a handful of homeowners.

[bargee]

Just wondering if the Villages Developers still lived in Hickory Head Hammock would they be so quick to propose an apartment complex within site of their residences?

[npwalters]

When you(they) say 8 acres, are you(they) referring to the entire CC property(i.e. all 27 holes, along with the CC), or just the CC itself? I ask because I am more concerned if they opt to convert or remove some golf courses?! That would be a trend that I would be disturbed about. Thanks, Nick!

That is just the site where the CC was. To give you a basis of comparison, a developer is building apartments for about 260 people on 466 just east of TV property. They are using roughly 40 acres to accommodate the the buildings and parking.

[npwalters]

Our village is smack dab on 466 and we have maintained our property values.

I'm surprised you can say that with a straight face. It is on 466 insulated by a golf course on 3 sides and a wall and gate on the 466 side.

[rtrav711]

I noted that "Joseppe" stated earlier..

I get why everyone's upset over this, but I don't understand the thinking that complaining, arguing or fighting it is going to change it. Those promises of a perceived lifestyle were never put in writing and are not defensible. I'd say the only reasonable option you have is to either accept its going to happen or leave the Villages before your property values and lifestyle are infringed upon. Those are the things you can change, the coming of apartments you probably cannot change.

The remarks are well taken.

But there are many things in writing by the developer.

The Restated property report we received from the State of Connecticut...before our real estate closing ...which advised us " You are entitled to cancel this contract by midnight or the third day on which you have executed this contract or agreement. You are encouraged to have an attorney review your contract
....to ensure you thoroughly understand the terms.....etc " Attached to that was the "Developer's concept of what the Villages was; and what it would be...(all 34 pages)".
Additionally...we still have a copy of the written sales brochure edition 2004.."The Villages Our Hometown"...which states in writing what The Villages was.and touts all the perks...etc.
Also have The Villages Golf and Country Club Living sales brochure (Revised 11/20/02)...that specifically
notes Hacienda CC and its' amenities..
This is just a few written items...the developer would have to address.
Cannot see someone promising something...to entice another party to buy something...and then totally disregarding what they promised in writing.
Hope this info helps.

[NoMoSno]

That is just the site where the CC was. To give you a basis of comparison, a developer is building apartments for about 260 people on 466 just east of TV property. They are using roughly 40 acres to accommodate the the buildings and parking.
...and that developer was required by the county to finance the building of turn lanes and signals on 466.
It's yet to be seen if anything will be done on Morse Blvd.

[LG999]

Is it contractually legal to sell a certain lifestyle and then change it?

[rustyp]

I believe the rec centers are amenities that are owned by the districts north of 44. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

It sounds like you are confusing rec centers with championship club houses (restaurants). The developer owns all championship golf courses and facilities.

[Villagesgal]

I noted that "Joseppe" stated earlier..

I get why everyone's upset over this, but I don't understand the thinking that complaining, arguing or fighting it is going to change it. Those promises of a perceived lifestyle were never put in writing and are not defensible. I'd say the only reasonable option you have is to either accept its going to happen or leave the Villages before your property values and lifestyle are infringed upon. Those are the things you can change, the coming of apartments you probably cannot change.

The remarks are well taken.

But there are many things in writing by the developer.

The Restated property report we received from the State of Connecticut...before our real estate closing ...which advised us " You are entitled to cancel this contract by midnight or the third day on which you have executed this contract or agreement. You are encouraged to have an attorney review your contract
....to ensure you thoroughly understand the terms.....etc " Attached to that was the "Developer's concept of what the Villages was; and what it would be...(all 34 pages)".
Additionally...we still have a copy of the written sales brochure edition 2004.."The Villages Our Hometown"...which states in writing what The Villages was.and touts all the perks...etc.
Also have The Villages Golf and Country Club Living sales brochure (Revised 11/20/02)...that specifically
notes Hacienda CC and its' amenities..
This is just a few written items...the developer would have to address.
Cannot see someone promising something...to entice another party to buy something...and then totally disregarding what they promised in writing.
Hope this info helps.

Talk is just talk. Get people together to pay for and hire a legal team. It's been tried before and failed every time. People love to sound off but won't stand behind what they say when they have to open their wallets. Good luck trying.

Been here 19 years, heard it all before, changes made that people were screaming no to when suggested all ended up just fine, even traffic problems relieved with stop lights. So either put out for attorneys or sit back and watch the changes take place. Of course, you can always move away too. Me, I'm staying, it's still better than anywhere else I'm aware of.

[dewilson58]

Talk is just talk. Get people together to pay for and hire a legal team. It's been tried before and failed every time. People love to sound off but won't stand behind what they say when they have to open their wallets. Good luck trying.

Been here 19 years, heard it all before, changes made that people were screaming no to when suggested all ended up just fine, even traffic problems relieved with stop lights. So either put out for attorneys or sit back and watch the changes take place. Of course, you can always move away too. Me, I'm staying, it's still better than anywhere else I'm aware of.


100 to 150 people making opposing comments out of 150,000 ........ not a strong showing.


Traffic problems................welcome to Florida. The Villages does not have "Florida traffic" issues.


Rental properties.............welcome to Florida.

[jimjamuser]

...and that developer was required by the county to finance the building of turn lanes and signals on 466.
It's yet to be seen if anything will be done on Morse Blvd.
We need many more turning lanes in the north of 466, but the developers have their attention focused on the south of 466.

[Rsenholzi]

280 apartments in a 4 story building

[npwalters]

280 apartments in a 4 story building

Yes, plus a resort style pool, a restaurant, sports courts, walking paths, and parking for cars and carts - on 8 acres. The lawyer hired to represent the developer assures it it will be wonderful and everyone in TV can enjoy all the amazing amenities.

Gonna be a crowed pool.

[Stu from NYC]

Yes, plus a resort style pool, a restaurant, sports courts, walking paths, and parking for cars and carts - on 8 acres. The lawyer hired to represent the developer assures it it will be wonderful and everyone in TV can enjoy all the amazing amenities.

Gonna be a crowed pool.

He is a lawyer so of course we can believe him when he says how wonderful it will all be.

[dewilson58]

He is a lawyer so of course we can believe him when he says how wonderful it will all be.


Where is that sarcasm emoji when we need it??? :MOJE_whot:

[kathy1516]

Do we know if these apartments are age restricted or will they be for families or any one of any age?

[LuvtheVillages]

Do we know if these apartments are age restricted or will they be for families or any one of any age?

They will be age restricted.

[Stu from NYC]

Where is that sarcasm emoji when we need it??? :MOJE_whot:

You think I was being sarcastic?:faint:

[Bogie Shooter]

Talk is just talk. Get people together to pay for and hire a legal team. It's been tried before and failed every time. People love to sound off but won't stand behind what they say when they have to open their wallets. Good luck trying.

Been here 19 years, heard it all before, changes made that people were screaming no to when suggested all ended up just fine, even traffic problems relieved with stop lights. So either put out for attorneys or sit back and watch the changes take place. Of course, you can always move away too. Me, I'm staying, it's still better than anywhere else I'm aware of.

100 to 150 people making opposing comments out of 150,000 ........ not a strong showing.


Traffic problems................welcome to Florida. The Villages does not have "Florida traffic" issues.


Rental properties.............welcome to Florida.



Yes!

[FishnFool]

I’m hoping someone on here might be able to help me understand something I noticed. I looked at the Exhibit A map on the Revised Master Plan for North of 466. I see where they added the “Multi-Family Residential” for the definition of Mixed Use, but it is also uses that text in the definition of Residential: “Residential may include: Single-Family Residential, Multi-Family Residential”.

Is that a modified definition or has it always been the case and had already included the "Multi-Family Residential" portion? I didn't see anything in the text call out a change of the definition for all the "Residential" areas only to the "Mixed Use" definition? Is that deliberate or an oversight? Either way if approved as written, using one of the new calculations provided in Exhibit 3: Revised Land Use Conversion table, especially of the ".571 single-family units converts to 1 multi-family units" could make things interesting, not quite a duplex but close!

Looks like most folks are focused on the immediate impact of the HH area but doesn't this open the door for request of rezoning to Multi-Family in the future of any of the residential properties on the map?

I sooo hope I'm wrong...

[Dond1959]

I was in Orlando today, had to sit through 3 cycles of traffic lights to make a left turn. Now that place has traffic problems. Here, traffic is a breeze.

I thought the 280 was the total for all areas north of 466 not just HH?

[Whatever]

Does Florida have a SEQRA Law that would require any developer to provide a State Environmental Quality Review of the proposed development? This would require that the developer report on traffic flow, water resources, and pretty much the environmental impact on the community. I believe that in any project must include this requirement to, at the very least, understand what the impact of the development of any property would have in the community.
Said act is currently the law in NY

[dewilson58]

Does Florida have a SEQRA Law


Google is your friend.

[Nucky]

All we ever read about is Deed Restrictions for this that and the other thing. Where in the paperwork that anyone signed anywhere at any time inside The Villages when purchasing Land or a Home did it exclude Apartment, Condos, Town Houses, or anything other than what is in the PRECIOUS Deed Restrictions? Our Deed Restriction was absolutely given to us after we finished the closing process. The paperwork was given to us upstairs from the Citizens First Bank on Main St in SS after they had our money. Fortunately, this Project is in the Neck Of The Woods We live in and I approve and wish them luck in their new venture.

Gotta go. Dinner reservations at the Morrises house at 5.30 PM. Social Distancing of course. :1rotfl:

To those that this hurts I feel sorry for your troubles. I just really don't get why it is such a catastrophe. :pray:

[Northwoods]

How many times do you have to be hit in head to see the next one coming??? As soon as major maintenance is required on a clubhouse it will be demolished for apartments. Maybe a few clubhouses will be maintained for ad brochures. In the 14 years we have lived here we have seen a lot of dirty tricks on the part on the developer, and he didn’t usually win because residents didn’t just roll over and hope for the best.

I must have been hit on the head because I don't remember them demolishing Lopez Legacy Country Club and building apartments. In fact, I remember major maintenance happening at Lopez. It took months.. the Suleiman's pretty much gutted the place. But now there is a beautiful new country club that has excellent food.

[John41]

Fire trap potential. If the proposed high rise apartments are wood framed and not built of steel and concrete, then there is a potential for a devastating fire. Even if there are sprinklers they could be installed by non English speaking workers who can’t read plans correctly. Can we depend on the building department in Sumter county? I hope so for the poor residents who live there. Lots of smokers in The Villages and smoking in bed is a major cause of fires.

[Stu from NYC]

Fire trap potential. If the proposed high rise apartments are wood framed and not built of steel and concrete, then there is a potential for a devastating fire. Even if there are sprinklers they could be installed by non English speaking workers who can’t read plans correctly. Can we depend on the building department in Sumter county? I hope so for the poor residents who live there. Lots of smokers in The Villages and smoking in bed is a major cause of fires.

I would sure hope for the residents sake that the Sumter building inspectors are on top of their game.

[Northwoods]

Yes, plus a resort style pool, a restaurant, sports courts, walking paths, and parking for cars and carts - on 8 acres. The lawyer hired to represent the developer assures it it will be wonderful and everyone in TV can enjoy all the amazing amenities.

Gonna be a crowed pool.

You said 280 apartments. The pool in our Village has to accommodate approx. 600 rooftops. Sounds pretty good to me.

[Chloe Girl]

Power does not corrupt men, fools however, if they get into a position of power, corrupt power.....................George Bernard Shaw

[crash]

I get why everyone's upset over this, but I don't understand the thinking that complaining, arguing or fighting it is going to change it. Those promises of a perceived lifestyle were never put in writing and are not defensible. I'd say the only reasonable option you have is to either accept its going to happen or leave the Villages before your property values and lifestyle are infringed upon. Those are the things you can change, the coming of apartments you probably cannot change.

What you say is probably true but too late the property values around Hacienda are already affected to the negative.

[gregcharlesnelson@gmail]

so glad we live way up north..near Hwy 42..

[riamd1954]

Very well said I hope it doesn’t happen for all the residents who live there !! I think it’s so underhanded!!

[jbrown132]

I think I remember you just moved here this year? We have been here since 2007. I don't see any reason why the Morse family would take to shooting themselves in the foot. Up until now they have made wise decisions. At one time I sensed that the family weren't all on board with going forward but they did continue. Those who harbor good feelings toward them will find good reasons and those others will call it greed.

I am not a renter. Really not fond of renters, but people rent their homes out here right and left. It is a fact of life. Many villagers buy homes in order to rent them out. Renting is allowed and will happen. I am of the opinion that it will not harm anyone's property values, but other people think differently. I think. I hope that when these much smaller version of Brownwood Lofts are built and people rent the upstairs at Spanish Springs it will be an..........Oh Well. No big deal.

I think you should sell your house, take the proceeds and an extra hundred thousand dollars for a golf course view and go buy one of those homes within 500 feet of HH, and see what happens to your investment.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

These are my thoughts and my version of the truth. If a fact is wrong I’m sure there will many to rush in and correct me. I am positive there will be a few that do not live close to the Haceinda Hills site that will disagree with most of what I say. I live about 2 miles from the HH site and am concerned because 1) my neighbors in TV are being disrespected and 2) I realize that if it is done at HH it can be done elsewhere and probably will be. For the lawyers: this is based on my recollections and opinion only.

I attended the meeting with the Special Master for Planning and Zoning for Sumter County on Monday night. I was there. Got there at 5:15 for the 6 o'clock meeting and we got he LAST 3 tickets available to actually get in the room where the meeting took place. The exterior at 5:50 (when I was allowed in) was overflowing. Many folks could not find a place to sit or stand and hear the speakers set up in the lobby and left in frustration. Bear in mind this was at Everglades Recreation Center. South of the turnpike, well away from the areas actually being discussed, and not golf cart accessible to any but those living south of the turnpike. A request was made that the next meeting with the commissioners be held at the Savannah Center. That request was not acknowledged.

The county had the “special master", the chief staff member of the Planning and Zoning Board, and a few staff. The Villages had a Orlando based lawyer, a hired traffic engineer, and VP for something (presumably development). The residents had all the residents that would fit into the venue. The "special master" had the charge to recommend approval/disapproval to the Sumter County Commissioners.

The first few hours were spent hearing argument for/against apartments in the Lake Sumter landing area. That centered around amending the language in the current zoning restrictions to “clarify” that apartments can be built in the existing spaces. No actual plan for where or what was required of the developer. The “special master” recommended approval of the change. NOTE THIS: the developer has identified every second story space in Sumter Landing Town Square as potential apartments. The recommended amendment does NOT restrict similar apartments to only Sumter Landing and does NOT limit it to only the upper floors.

The second half of the 6 hour long meeting discussed the former Hacienda Hills CC site. The proposal was to “clarify” the usage language to allow a multi-story (up to 50 feet) apartment complex on the HHCC site. The developer proposes to put up to 286 apartments, a “resort style” swimming pool, sports courts, a restaurant, walking paths, and parking for all the residents on this approximate 8 acre site. Their lawyer actually said all this with a straight face. The Sumter county “planner”, Mr. Holly, classified this site as LARGE in his statement of facts. He later acknowledged that it is classified it as large since the classification for all the sites in this area are based on SINGLE FAMILY HOUSING.

The special master was repeatedly asked to delay this decision until the facts were clearer. He admitted he had not actually visited HHCC site to view the existing neighborhoods. He was pled with to go lay eyes on the site before a decision was made. He did not acknowledge these requests and recommended approval.

There were at least 60 –I didn’t keep a count – residents that spoke. Some were armed with facts, some told their story of how the apartments are going to affect their homes and the small town Villages lifestyle they bought and planned to live for the remainder of their life, and a few were centered on ancillary issues such as the valid concern for increased traffic on Morse Blvd and lack of adequate water resources.

There were NO residents that spoke in favor. Sumter County sent letters to the 68 homes within 500 yards of the proposed apartments. 60 responded and ALL were opposed. This information was not offered by the staff and had to be pried out of Mr. Holly. He also stated he had received “numerous” emails on the subject but had not “had time” to read and classify them.

Both local papers stated there were catcalls from the residents. There were. Some of the things that the developers’ hired guns said in an effort to put lipstick on this pig were CLEARLY untrue and the residents reacted. Some of the things (such as the large tract) that Mr. Holly said were technically correct but were taken from data that applied “across The Villages” as a whole and were based on single family home data. Those comments were met with the derision they deserved.

The worst scorn was reserved for the current Morse generation. The speakers and audience members know full well that these apartments can and should be built in areas that are NOT fully developed. They think that greed is the prime motivator for the apartments. They know that many long term residents that bought into TV lifestyle are being totally disrespected. They believe with good cause that TV actions are causing the value of their homes to decrease dramatically. They KNOW that a 4 story apartment building literally surrounded by single family homes is NOT compatible use. Many quoted assurances from one on one conversations with Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse and KNOW these promises and assurances are being broken by the current generation. They KNOW the current generation is aware of all this and feel betrayed.

One speaker put it well at the end of his 3 minute allocation to speak ‘ There will be no statues built for the current Morse generation.

There are not different version of the truth. The truth is very narrow. There is simply only the truth. If it is your version before facts have occurred then it is your opinion.

[dewilson58]

I think you should sell your house, take the proceeds and an extra hundred thousand dollars for a golf course view and go buy one of those homes within 500 feet of HH, and see what happens to your investment.


Too late............IF there is going to be a drop in value, it's already happened. Since everyone within the 500 foot range is truthful and 100% transparent and will disclose any & all possible future activity.......they will discount their house for the fallen sky.



:ho:

[jjp2532]

So much for "representative" government. Amazing that elected officials can be this tone deaf to the will of the people.

When we bought here we were fully aware there was no government. We live in a citified resort, not everything is perfect but I can’t find another place as good as here. We were all aware this is not a “representative “ government.

[collie1228]

I live less than one-half mile North of the former HH, just a few steps off Morse, and don't give a whit about my property value. I plan to live right here until the end. But I do drive my golf cart daily to the mail station at HH, and if the developer is allowed to build such a large facility full of new people, cars and golf carts, without major changes in the two-lanes of Morse Blvd., then I will know for certain that the fix is in. It doesn't surprise me, but it does disappoint me. Clearly the safety of local residents is not a big consideration here.

[graciegirl]

What you say is probably true but too late the property values around Hacienda are already affected to the negative.

All of the people with their negative speculations are doing their share . I just found these listings on the street adjacent. I will be watching them. These homes are listed for the middle three hundreds and were last sold for under two hundredK. One appears to be renovated and one needs carpet and wallpaper removed. I doubt this talks helps them sell.

My guess is that if they are hard to sell now because of all of this talk BUT things might change once the apartments are built. That is just my guess. I don't sell real estate but enjoy watching the prices in The Villages.

Here look at them;

1116 San Antonio Ln, The Villages, FL 32159 - realtor.com(R) (https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1116-San-Antonio-Ln_The-Villages_FL_32159_M68138-00377)

1111 San Antonio Ln, The Villages, FL, 32159 | realtor.com(R) (https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1111-San-Antonio-Ln_The-Villages_FL_32159_M68477-86917?view=qv)

[Stu from NYC]

I live less than one-half mile North of the former HH, just a few steps off Morse, and don't give a whit about my property value. I plan to live right here until the end. But I do drive my golf cart daily to the mail station at HH, and if the developer is allowed to build such a large facility full of new people, cars and golf carts, without major changes in the two-lanes of Morse Blvd., then I will know for certain that the fix is in. It doesn't surprise me, but it does disappoint me. Clearly the safety of local residents is not a big consideration here.

One would think that they would modify Morse due to the expected increased traffic.

[dewilson58]

One would think that they would modify Morse due to the expected increased traffic.


Modifications would be determined by the County and related traffic studies. Until a study is complete, no one knows the impact of a couple hundred more units compared to the current traffic volume. Probably not significant.

[npwalters]

I’m hoping someone on here might be able to help me understand something I noticed. I looked at the Exhibit A map on the Revised Master Plan for North of 466. I see where they added the “Multi-Family Residential” for the definition of Mixed Use, but it is also uses that text in the definition of Residential: “Residential may include: Single-Family Residential, Multi-Family Residential”.

Is that a modified definition or has it always been the case and had already included the "Multi-Family Residential" portion? I didn't see anything in the text call out a change of the definition for all the "Residential" areas only to the "Mixed Use" definition? Is that deliberate or an oversight? Either way if approved as written, using one of the new calculations provided in Exhibit 3: Revised Land Use Conversion table, especially of the ".571 single-family units converts to 1 multi-family units" could make things interesting, not quite a duplex but close!

Looks like most folks are focused on the immediate impact of the HH area but doesn't this open the door for request of rezoning to Multi-Family in the future of any of the residential properties on the map?

I sooo hope I'm wrong...

Reference your last paragraph. YES, the board recommended approval to a change in wording that essentially allows the developer to place multi-family in any TV property located in Sumter County. That is my layman's understanding of it anyway.

[npwalters]

When we bought here we were fully aware there was no government. We live in a citified resort, not everything is perfect but I can’t find another place as good as here. We were all aware this is not a “representative “ government.

Actually is is the government who is voting on this. The Lake County government for the SS area and the Sumter county government for the rest.

[Carla B]

Fire trap potential. If the proposed high rise apartments are wood framed and not built of steel and concrete, then there is a potential for a devastating fire. Even if there are sprinklers they could be installed by non English speaking workers who can’t read plans correctly. Can we depend on the building department in Sumter county? I hope so for the poor residents who live there. Lots of smokers in The Villages and smoking in bed is a major cause of fires.

I remember driving by the Lofts at Brownwood during construction and noting that they are wood framed. Fine for a house but for a multi-family building, seem flimsy vs. concrete.

[Buckeye Bob]

It sounds like you are confusing rec centers with championship club houses (restaurants). The developer owns all championship golf courses and facilities.
I'm fully Ware the developer owns the country clubs; i work at one. They don't own the rec centers such as Seabreeze, Canal Street, etc.

[Buckeye Bob]

Yes, plus a resort style pool, a restaurant, sports courts, walking paths, and parking for cars and carts - on 8 acres. The lawyer hired to represent the developer assures it it will be wonderful and everyone in TV can enjoy all the amazing amenities.

Gonna be a crowed pool.

There is absolutely nothing in the agreement about a restaurant.

[mad329]

That was a great post...thank you for all the input you shared.

[kendi]

The BOCC meetings are regularly held at the Everglades Regional Recreation Center.

Since the BOCC Works for the entire county and not just TV, this location is more convenient for the entire county.

Thanks for your comment. I always question when people make unfounded accusations. Label someone (developer) as a bad guy and there goes the open mindedness. Not one person that I saw mentioned if they actually asked why the meeting was held at Everglades. People don't typically like change, but its sad to see that the emotion has elevated to such a high level of anger over the issue. Life is good and its short, enjoy it.

[davem4616]

I remember driving by the Lofts at Brownwood during construction and noting that they are wood framed. Fine for a house but for a multi-family building, seem flimsy vs. concrete.



when I first married I rented the top floor of what is referred to as a "3 decker"...it was a wood framed structure

we were directly across from a large park...nice view, but when it was extremely windy the water in the toilet bowl would actually slosh about a little

they were safe, but a little unsettling if you hadn't lived on the 3rd floor before

[FishnFool]

Reference your last paragraph. YES, the board recommended approval to a change in wording that essentially allows the developer to place multi-family in any TV property located in Sumter County. That is my layman's understanding of it anyway.

Pretty sure that the Multi-Family Residential designation is not just for the developer to use but by adopting that DRI plan from VLS, the county adopts it in their "2035 Future Land Use Map Sumter County Map 1-1", which any property owner(s) could use to justify a rezoning request.

Conventional Wisdom would lead one to believe it to be irrelevant in light of the Deed Restrictions of "only one home on each lot." or similar wording. But if irrelevant then why the change?

[Mikef99]

I attended a meeting held at a subdivision where I lived years ago and it was the same meeting. The meeting is required by law or regulation ( now they can check the box complete). They will do whatever they want, so don't worry about it but do what you need to do. Move, adjust, sell the house by the condo...because the result is already decided.

[PugMom]

Thank you for an excellent post and attending the meeting. When the new Sumter commissioners take office the remaining puppets will be removed from office. The residents have won battles against the developer before. My opinion is that no squares are planned south of Rt 44, so the developer will turn all the existing squares into apartments to avoid sales competition in the new areas south of Rt 44. Also no money will be spent to maintain the clubhouses above Rt 44 so they can be demolished for apartments. There is a lot more being hidden from residents in my opinion.

they are building a new square near our area. it will be called Sawgrass, & some businesses are already scheduled to be set up there.

[Marshaw]

Very interesting. Thanks. This all started because the developer couldn't find a tennant to lease the restaurant. Yet now in the plans there will be one. Sounds like it's going to be a fishy place.

[PugMom]

i hesitate to post this, but maybe there is a market for apartments. i could see myself as renter years from now when i can't manage our villa anymore. idk why some make everything sound so sinister

[DonnaNi4os]

I am opposed to apartments being built here. I did not attend the meeting for fear of crowded, angry people in this pandemic era we are in. I fear that the developers will do as they wish without regard for the people who have purchased homes here. I feel for those living near Hacienda. How their view will change. Their life will be effected by high volume traffic and I wonder who will be next to have their home altered by its surroundings. Will it be my neighborhood? Will it be yours? But don’t you dare put something on your lawn that might offend someone without intending to. I am saddened by what is happening here.

[John41]

they are building a new square near our area. it will be called Sawgrass, & some businesses are already scheduled to be set up there.

It was stated by the developer that the new squares will be much smaller than the current ones. But I hope you do get a square like the current ones.

[village dreamer]

Easy to turn 27 hole course into 18 and build on the vacated 9 holes.
no , just tear up all 27 holes and build.

[npwalters]

There is absolutely nothing in the agreement about a restaurant.

Not sure which agreement you are referring to. The developers attorney stated there would be a restaurant along with the other amenities. This was also reported in the newspaper following the meeting.

[npwalters]

[QUOTE=FishnFool;1838184]Pretty sure that the Multi-Family Residential designation is not just for the developer to use but by adopting that DRI plan from VLS, the county adopts it in their "2035 Future Land Use Map Sumter County Map 1-1", which any property owner(s) could use to justify a rezoning request.

Conventional Wisdom would lead one to believe it to be irrelevant in light of the Deed

Thanks for the clarification. The take away for Villagers is IF the county commissioners vote to approve, it applies to all of TV (and apparently Sumter County). In other words, apartments could be built in Brownwood, or anywhere else in the same zoning class, without having to go back and seek approval.

[npwalters]

i hesitate to post this, but maybe there is a market for apartments. i could see myself as renter years from now when i can't manage our villa anymore. idk why some make everything sound so sinister

I can only speak for me. I am certainly not opposed to apartments. I see nothing to complain about The Lofts at Brownwood for instance. I am opposed to apartments being forced into a long established single family home area against the residents wishes.

[PugMom]

i respect your opinion. thanks.

[chris38mick]

Just an additional thought. I toured the Brownwood Lofts and was astonished by the fact that a one bedroom apartment (782 sq.ft.) Can have 3 residents all must sign the lease. A 2 bedroom can have 5 residents. A 3 bedroom can have 7 residents. All the 55+ rules for TV will apply. The state law is that 20% can be under 55. So, you could potentially have 7, 20something people sharing one apartment.

[graciegirl]

Just an additional thought. I toured the Brownwood Lofts and was astonished by the fact that a one bedroom apartment (782 sq.ft.) Can have 3 residents all must sign the lease. A 2 bedroom can have 5 residents. A 3 bedroom can have 7 residents. All the 55+ rules for TV will apply. The state law is that 20% can be under 55. So, you could potentially have 7, 20something people sharing one apartment.

Welcome. I am so glad that comet missed us too.

[Stu from NYC]

Just an additional thought. I toured the Brownwood Lofts and was astonished by the fact that a one bedroom apartment (782 sq.ft.) Can have 3 residents all must sign the lease. A 2 bedroom can have 5 residents. A 3 bedroom can have 7 residents. All the 55+ rules for TV will apply. The state law is that 20% can be under 55. So, you could potentially have 7, 20something people sharing one apartment.

Wonder if we can sign the lease and sublet?

[FishnFool]

Thanks for the clarification. The take away for Villagers is IF the county commissioners vote to approve, it applies to all of TV (and apparently Sumter County). In other words, apartments could be built in Brownwood, or anywhere else in the same zoning class, without having to go back and seek approval.

It seems I should try to provide more clarification! :icon_wink:
The DRI that contains the "Residential" definition that seems to now include Multi-Family Residence, is the TRI-COUNTY VILLAGES OF SUMTER DRI. It encompasses the portions of the Districts 1, 2 and 3 that are in Sumter County, Period. District 1 is where the HHCC resided. This was one of the documents reviewed for changes at the meeting you attended this week. The TRI-COUNTY VILLAGES OF SUMTER DRI along with other documents are referenced in the 2035 Future Land Use Map Sumter County Map 1-1. So when this DRI is amended, technically so is the 2035 Future Land Use Map Sumter County Map 1-1. The 2035 Future Land Use map is typically used to guide zoning requests.

The question I haven't found the answer to is:
Is this a change or is "Residential" currently defined this way?

[John41]

Just an additional thought. I toured the Brownwood Lofts and was astonished by the fact that a one bedroom apartment (782 sq.ft.) Can have 3 residents all must sign the lease. A 2 bedroom can have 5 residents. A 3 bedroom can have 7 residents. All the 55+ rules for TV will apply. The state law is that 20% can be under 55. So, you could potentially have 7, 20something people sharing one apartment.

Wow multi family housing takes on a new meaning, more than one family in just one apartment.

[champion6]

<snip> Thanks for the clarification. The take away for Villagers is IF the county commissioners vote to approve, it applies to all of TV (and apparently Sumter County). In other words, apartments could be built in Brownwood, or anywhere else in the same zoning class, without having to go back and seek approval.I do not think this is correct.

Attached is the meeting notice that was published in the Daily Sun. It identifies specific parcels, not all of Sumter County, for which zoning is proposed to change, and certainly not all of TV.

It identifies:
1. The parcel where Hacienda Hills CC and pool were located.
2. Specific parcels around and near Lake Sumter Landing Market Square.

I wasn't at the meeting. Based on the reports I read, the discussion focused on only these specific parcels.

[npwalters]

I do not think this is correct.

Attached is the meeting notice that was published in the Daily Sun. It identifies specific parcels, not all of Sumter County, for which zoning is proposed to change, and certainly not all of TV.

It identifies:
1. The parcel where Hacienda Hills CC and pool were located.
2. Specific parcels around and near Lake Sumter Landing Market Square.

I wasn't at the meeting. Based on the reports I read, the discussion focused on only these specific parcels.

The specific parcels in Lake Sumter Landing is every available second story space. A resident that spoke brought up the point that the posting was a representative proposal only (not restricted to just those identified locations) , and the developer could actually use a first floor space for apartments if they chose to. The developers' attorney did not challenge that assertion in their rebuttal.

Like so many things associated with this...we, the residents, don't really know all the facts. We question if the county has more than a rough sketch of the proposals. Several people at the meeting asked the decision be postponed until the entire set of facts are known. The special masters decision was not postponed.

[thelegges]

Just an additional thought. I toured the Brownwood Lofts and was astonished by the fact that a one bedroom apartment (782 sq.ft.) Can have 3 residents all must sign the lease. A 2 bedroom can have 5 residents. A 3 bedroom can have 7 residents. All the 55+ rules for TV will apply. The state law is that 20% can be under 55. So, you could potentially have 7, 20something people sharing one apartment.

2 couples could rent for a year for about $1100 month each. Not bad for lock and walk with full resident ID. So could be 2 couples, or 4 singles or retired parents and their children as long as they are 19

[Stu from NYC]

2 couples could rent for a year for about $1100 month each. Not bad for lock and walk with full resident ID. So could be 2 couples, or 4 singles or retired parents and their children as long as they are 19

I will rent to a bunch of flight attendants say $ 200 per month and if we can get a couple of dozen to rent one could lease a number of units and really clean up.

Should start looking for a couple of investors.

[tophcfa]

Stopped by HH today, very sad, it will never be the same. I don’t care how tasteful (in some peoples opinion) the apartment complex will be, apartments and a single family residential neighborhood, on a Championship Golf Course, are just not right : (

[Northwoods]

I can only speak for me. I am certainly not opposed to apartments. I see nothing to complain about The Lofts at Brownwood for instance. I am opposed to apartments being forced into a long established single family home area against the residents wishes.

How do you feel about apartments in the squares? (Spanish Springs and Lake Sumter)?

[thelegges]

Wonder if we can sign the lease and sublet?

No sublet, IDs are for leasehold only. But if they are only here for couple of nights, don’t need a ID to go to Brownwood.Could be a money maker.( Sarcasm emoji needed):popcorn:

[FishnFool]

This is from a Document on the Sumter County zoning agenda website:

"In order to permit multi-family in the DRI DO the following amendments are needed:

A. Amend DRI DO to state that the approved 11,719 residential units are approved for single-family and multi-family attached or detached units. Also, delete the phrase "not more than" because it is possible that non-residential square footage could be converted resulting in more than 11 ,719 residential units at buildout."

It is not clear to me why it is necessary to modify the definition of 11,719 residential units to include Multi-Family Residence in order to add Multi-Family to the Mixed Use definition on the DRI for the HHCC property?

Also it seems that number is "34,144 residential units" on areas south of 466.

I found the the verbiage for Lake County docs to be slightly different, using the word "Clarify" vs "Amend", I suspect the difference is important and based upon differences of the current documents registered in each county:

"B. Amend the ADO to permit multi-family attached or detached units in the town center through the following revisions:

1) Clarify that the approved 2,108 residential units can be built as single-family or multi-family attached or detached units;"

[John41]

Commissioner Doug Gilpin has said the newly elected commissioners should decide the apartments issue. Hopefully a compromise between the developer and the residents can be reached. I always liked Doug Gilpin. When we had damage to our driveway at move in time he replaced the whole driveway.

[npwalters]

How do you feel about apartments in the squares? (Spanish Springs and Lake Sumter)?

I think it is sad and will cause some unintended problems at the squares such as noise complaints from the residents. I do think I could make a case for or against apartments IN THE SQUARES (only) if I had to.

[npwalters]

This is from a Document on the Sumter County zoning agenda website:

"In order to permit multi-family in the DRI DO the following amendments are needed:

A. Amend DRI DO to state that the approved 11,719 residential units are approved for single-family and multi-family attached or detached units. Also, delete the phrase "not more than" because it is possible that non-residential square footage could be converted resulting in more than 11 ,719 residential units at buildout."

It is not clear to me why it is necessary to modify the definition of 11,719 residential units to include Multi-Family Residence in order to add Multi-Family to the Mixed Use definition on the DRI for the HHCC property?

Also it seems that number is "34,144 residential units" on areas south of 466.

I found the the verbiage for Lake County docs to be slightly different, using the word "Clarify" vs "Amend", I suspect the difference is important and based upon differences of the current documents registered in each county:

"B. Amend the ADO to permit multi-family attached or detached units in the town center through the following revisions:

1) Clarify that the approved 2,108 residential units can be built as single-family or multi-family attached or detached units;"

Good post. Difficult for most of us - me anyway - to wrap my mind around. My non-lawyer take on why they have to request the BOCC change the existing Development of Regional Impact (DRI) is that residential of ANY type was NOT a part of the original intent of mixed use areas in TV. The very few places they spell it out don't show residential. This is a chart from 2005 (I think) that was shown in the developers historic data:

LAND USE NET CHANGES
Residential +54
Mixed Use Areas (Retail/Service in Town/Village Centers) +60
Hospital +3
Regional Recreation Center -24
Parks/Open Space/Buffers +2
Storm water -5
Total Change In Acres 90 al data.

The bolding was mine.

The Hacienda Hills site was designated mixed use because they had a commercial entity in the "country club" - a restaurant. It was NOT planned as a space for residences of any type (same for the town squares).

The developer has decided to make it a high density residential site and now has to convince the county commissioners to go along with that scheme.
The residents that built their homes surrounding that piece of ground 25 years ago are firmly opposed.

disclaimer: I am NOT a lawyer and this is my opinion only based on my research.

p.s. the reason stated for doing this is that the apartments are NEEDED in these areas. They don't explain why the apartments cannot be built on land not already fully developed - like the several thousand acres they own south of CR44.

[Stu from NYC]

I think it is sad and will cause some unintended problems at the squares such as noise complaints from the residents. I do think I could make a case for or against apartments IN THE SQUARES (only) if I had to.

Anyone who moves to a square and complains about noise should be asked if he considered that when he rented.

If not they deserve to be asked if the city they came from is looking for their village idiot.

than promptly ignored

[npwalters]

Anyone who moves to a square and complains about noise should be asked if he considered that when he rented.

If not they deserve to be asked if the city they came from is looking for their village idiot.

than promptly ignored

I agree. There have been many lawsuits filed by individuals that bought around an airport.

[Stu from NYC]

I agree. There have been many lawsuits filed by individuals that bought around an airport.

Just like the people that bought Village home near I 75 for a discount and now want to complain about the noise and want others to build some sort of noise abatement wall for them.

[Northwoods]

I think it is sad and will cause some unintended problems at the squares such as noise complaints from the residents. I do think I could make a case for or against apartments IN THE SQUARES (only) if I had to.

I don't understand why it is sad. To me, it's a great way to provide maintenance-free living to residents who either can no longer keep up a home or someone who doesn't want to. The buildings are already there so no new construction. Plus you're not constructing apartments in a residential area. A number of people on TOTV have said they would be interested in living in an apartment (some specifically said on the square).
Every big city has stores on the ground floor and apartments above. They're very desirable because they are close to shopping, restaurants, etc.
I think it would be sad if The Developer wasn't able to convert the 2nd floor in the squares to apartments because a few people blocked any apartment construction.