Virus ... should we just chuck in the towel

[Madelaine Amee]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

[graciegirl]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

As usual, I agree with you but I would have phrased it a little more gently.

[Stu from NYC]

Most people are behaving.

This morning everyone in Big Lots and mostly everyone at Walmarts are masked up

[davem4616]

stay the course...this isn't going to last forever

continue to take control of your life/life choices....do what you feel comfortable doing

avoid those places where you know there will be people there that are not playing it as safe as you are

[Villageswimmer]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

I agree but isn’t your third paragraph pretty much what’s going on now or am I misunderstanding?

[oldtimes]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

:agree:

[DeanFL]

.
.
...after reading your post, one phrase immediately came to mind - 'roll with the punches'. Life always presents those inevitable punches.

That's exactly what we've been doing since March. Life's not over, simply different. I do understand that it's easier for us to roll with those punches. Retired. Live in The Villages. Financially OK. Family settled and healthy. All healthy.

But the "rolling" included canceling plans, esp travel. Less activities. Less friends. Less entertainment out. Less fun.

The impact has been so great on so many worldwide. And it's not over. yet. We do have faith that medicines and healthcare have greatly improved since March. And that vaccines WILL be available within months. And that we will be inoculated in time NOT to get COVID.

So, until then, we will continue to roll with any punches that come our way. And live life to the fullest we can. period.
.
.

[Velvet]

Covid fatigue I’m guessing. The older ones are suicidal, the younger ones are tired of caring. And “if the President can survive it then so can I” thinking.

There is only so much you can do to help other people, and only if they want it in the first place.

[Boomer]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.


I have said it before and I will say it again — we are finding out who we really are and we are finding out who other people really are.

It is not just the aggravation of having to dodge barefaced, angry-looking strangers in grocery stores. It is also the bizarre behavior of people we know — or thought we knew.

In my northern life, I have been a part of a loosely connected social group of women for the past few years. We have been able to get together outside this summer with proper social distancing. We could all scoot our lawn chairs around until we felt OK.

One of the women phoned me for a normal reason, but half way through the conversation she suddenly launched into a harangue about the virus being a hoax and how stupid masks are — and then she fevered up into a creepy ode to the source of her disinformation.

I did not argue with her. I knew there was no point. I simply wrote her off. I figure if she considers me to be disposable, I will not feel bad about disposing of having her in my life, by backing away — backing up, both figuratively and literally.

She has no idea though where I have placed her in my thinking. Actually, that makes me feel kind of guilty, not because I am finished with her but because I did not speak up. I feel guilty because I am so good at the suburban social dance. Damn.

Boomer

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

I would only be "okay" with that if insurance companies refuse to cover anyone with COVID-19 if they didn't have any masks with them (in their glove compartment, in their purses, hanging from the rear view mirror, on the seat, in the house, anything). You can't prove that they weren't wearing a mask when they contracted the virus. But you can prove lack of personal responsibility if they don't even own a mask.

If people want to be responsible for their own health, I say have at it. Just don't expect my tax dollars to pay for your medical care when you screw up.

[asianthree]

Went to Brownwood tonight, for dinner. Spent about 2 hours with a multi course meal. Restaurant had customers, but not overly busy.

But what we did notice was the lack of people at the square listening to music. There were about 30 when we first got to the restaurant, all social distancing. When we left there were fewer. A very helpful ticket taker, asked as we strolled around the square, if we had our tickets to enter.

We mentioned how few people there were and Felt bad the band had very few Patrons.

He mentioned amount of tickets that could be used for Brownwood, not even A 1/4 was there.

The tickets were all taken, but most no shows. He said there were people getting tickets, and then ripping them up, to make sure as many as possible could not attend. He said it was sad that some have decided to control other people lives.

Have no idea if it’s true, but every night tickets are not available, and have very few people attend. But given the fact that some are extremely unhappy people are out and about, it would not surprise me

[Velvet]

Lol, OBB, hubby has a friend who places a mask very prominently around the front of his scooter, his motorcycle, his neck... but never on his face. His masks are obviously symbolic or worn on pain of death, which occasionally hubby alludes to if friend comes too near.

[mermaids]

I agree with you. I can't understand why some people get nasty when they're asked to wear a mask. Please people, this is a world wide pandemic & if wearing masks could save lives, then just do it! It's only a small inconvenience. I will continue to wear one in public places because I care about you 😷

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Lol, OBB, hubby has a friend who places a mask very prominently around the front of his scooter, his motorcycle, his neck... but never on his face. His masks are obviously symbolic or worn on pain of death, which occasionally hubby alludes to if friend comes too near.

Since my issue is with having to foot the bill for someone who refuses to accept personal responsibility, I also have to acknowledge that it's nearly impossible to prove. But if they HAVE a mask - at least they have chosen to be capable of wearing one.

If they don't even have a mask - then they've proven that their choice is to be unconcerned for their own safety. At which point I say - then pay for your own medical bills.

I feel the same way about people who have brain trauma resulting from a car accident during which they were not wearing a seatbelt. You choose not to wear one, then you can pay for your own injuries. And again - the same with people on motorcycles who choose not to wear a helmet.

You are responsible for your own health. You can choose to do what science has already deemed a minimum of appropriate behavior, or you can choose to pay the price for your failure if it comes to it.

And - to be transparent about it: I don't wear a mask outside. Only inside buildings. I do carry one in my purse, have one in my glove compartment in my golf car and my car, and extras in my house. So if I feel like I'm going into an unavoidable crowd situation, even if it's outside, I can put the mask on.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Ever have a conversation with a surgeon who fixes people after they have stupid accidents? yes i have. You will get the exact same answers as OrangeBlossomBaby. Lots of people don't respect the very low probability of something life altering happening. And that turns into society and insurance companies covering everybody through "no fault" insurance. So yes, we all pay for every else's sometimes bad luck and sometimes stupidity, sometimes you can't tell the difference

But ask yourself, what's the difference between stopping at a stop sign and wearing a mask if its an ordinance, law or requested by the store front owner? Not complying with a stop sign has a known, but small probability of death or life altering outcome. Not complying with a mask indoors also has a small probability of death or life altering outcome, both random. The difference is that one was trained and taught from the beginning to respect the stop sign, or there will be a least a fine or in several cases license suspension. With the virus, the only difference is that the request is new, the information is conflicting, as reality and theory are a bit different, but the outcome is the same, small probability of a life altering outcome. So in reality, the only difference is that one was trained early in one's formative years to comply with stop signs, and now your ability to learn/adapt is no more, you are done adapting and learning, whatever the outcome.

sportsguy

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Oh, and from john's hopkins virologist/epidemiologist, these types of virus events typically run 2-3 years, but with today's modern medicine, expect 1 1/2 - 2 years. . . or slightly longer. So yes, the there will be a mental health toll because our lives have been so easy and healthcare research over many many years have learned allot about what has happened previously, and will continue to learn a lot, but the world and all creatures continue in the battle for survival as we have for millions of years.

sportsguy

[Two Bills]

Our family listen to the advice, then look after ourselves in the best way we can.
What others do is up to them.
Dirty word in these "someone else is to blame" days, but personal responsibility is still the best option.

[Tblue]

I agree with you. I can't understand why some people get nasty when they're asked to wear a mask. Please people, this is a world wide pandemic & if wearing masks could save lives, then just do it! It's only a small inconvenience. I will continue to wear one in public places because I care about you 😷. Just what if masks help spread the virus? I am speaking of re using masks, fiddling with the mask, improper storage of a used mask in your pocket, purse of console of your car, wearing the mask underneath your nose. Added all together these things COULD aid with the spread. Children and masks are in a category by them self

[kannon]

Always folks questions whether masks or social distancing or whatever works. Well, look at other countries. I think other countries do better than us, not so much because of masks or social distancing, but rather clear, definitive leadership and people working together to get thru this mess. Our country is the exact opposite - our true colors showing and it ain't nice. For those of us who do mask, do social distance, do small groups indoor, keep up the fight - we are pushing towards the finish line. We are fatigued, but we are getting closer. And remember those who stood with you.

[guitarguy]

Did you consider that a person without a mask may have had COVID and is no longer contagious? If so, they may be asking themselves why bother with a mask.

[jswirs]

Just stay home

[Fanfaron2020]

Unfortunately, 'they' never report how many COVID-19 deaths also had PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS... so we don't really know how many were truly COVID-19 deaths.

[matandch]

You are right. No one cares anymore. We’re doomed! 😳

[Girlcopper]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.
I have rarely seen any of this. When in Walmart I see everyone masked and Publix and other stores. You will always have one nitwit who geels its their right to do what they want. Its not that lrevalent at all

[Skunky1]

I agree. The snowflakes and snowbirds are coming from all parts of the country including foreign countries and they’re carrying a present for us in the villages.Let the natural selection continue.

[Annie66]

IT is an election year. Here is the shot. Check the numbers of the covid against the numbers of the h1n1 in 2009. I have found that we can not believe anything the media tell us. Good friends of mine told me they went to get a covid test. Signed the papers and got inline to take the test. Sitting in their car waiting after an hour and a half decided to come back the next day. Well before coming to complete their task of getting the test got a phone call stating that their test they took yesterday was positive. Quite a shock when in fact not getting the test done the previous day. One other situation of a personal experience. I have a close friend that works in a Hospital in Georgia. The situation there is that if a person dies of covid the hospital got $13,000 vrs $5,000 for a normal passing. well guess what? No matter if one came in and was in a car wreck and was certainly on deaths door and tested positive and died.......It was recorded as a covid case and the hospital got the 13k. Therefore I do not believe the numbers and all thats going on anymore than the regular flu each year and by the way check those numbers against the covid and you will see another comparison of media hype.

Of course the data is not exact because there are thousands of people adding to the database and not all understand or care to follow the exact reporting rules. Your examples, like many others discussed in this forum, are anecdotal. They can be outliers which do not represent the full body of accurate data.

So for the sake of discussion, lets say that 10% of the data is inaccurate. Instead of 210,000 people dying of Covid-19 or from the stress of a Covid-19 infection causing an underlying condition (heart disease, diabetes, etc.) to contribute to a person's death, 189,000 deaths is still a whole lot of suffering. Many of those folks would be alive today had Covid-19 not made its appearance in the world. In that regard, Covid-19 is certainly a contributing cause of death.

The specific Covid-19 numbers are a signal/trend that we have a severe health care problem today which would have been much worse had most people not worn masks or socially distanced. So if you are a disbeliever in the extent of this medical crisis, then hold on to these stories and ignore the overwhelming data that is accurate.

[Eg_cruz]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.
I was reading an article from Weird History and how the 1918 Spanish Flu came to an end....social distance, mask and herd....no meds no vaccine. By the time it finally ended 1/3 of the world population had caught it. The towns and counties that did social distance and mask had the best out comes. So don’t give up because like the Spanish Flu it lasted two years this one is going to last an other year if we learn from history.
I try my best to ride in the middle of the road be safe, keep my family, friends, co-workers, and public workers safe and I realize that is all anyone can do.

[Astron]

Wearing or not wearing a mask is not about public health any more, if it ever was. I guess that some folks are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.
Why do so many Americans refuse to wear face masks? Politics is part of it — but only part (https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/why-do-so-many-americans-refuse-to-wear-face-masks-it-may-have-nothing-to-do-with-politics-2020-06-16)

[superzcomputerz]

Stay home.

[UseYourBrain]

Unfortunately, 'they' never report how many COVID-19 deaths also had PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS... so we don't really know how many were truly COVID-19 deaths.

He cdc has provided this information. The percentage is 6% for Covid only deaths.

[doccraig]

FYI: The CDC just published a study that showed people who wear masks ALL THE TIME made up 70.6% of those people recently diagnosed with COVID 19 while those who NEVER wear masks made up 3.9%. This is from multiple samples direct from the CDC.

Research this yourself... go to cdc.gov.

Knowledge is a very powerful aide in decision making.

[stan the man]

Most people are behaving.

This morning everyone in Big Lots and mostly everyone at Walmarts are masked up

thank you stu for ALL of your wonderful posts, they are so informative

[clwahlstrom]

Well said Boomer

[Gmaf6]

Really? We continue to pay for medical issues caused by bad choices.....smoking, HIV, obesity, alcoholism, abortions, the list goes on and we will continue to do so like it or not.

[La lamy]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

I'm all for protecting oneself against Covid, but it sounds like you think masks do that. What I've learned is they don't protect you, because Covid is too small to be blocked by masks. Masks are useful to protect others from receiving your big droplets which may be infected. But if the virus is in the air, or if you touch your mask with an infected hand, it can pass through your mask just like a bug through a chain link fence. Distancing (especially from anti-maskers!), hand washing, not socializing indoors, not touching your face (including masks which is so hard!) seems to be the best ways to protect oneself. Good health to us all. :pray:

[La lamy]

I agree. The snowflakes and snowbirds are coming from all parts of the country including foreign countries and they’re carrying a present for us in the villages.Let the natural selection continue.

Many of us snowbirds are coming from almost no Covid cases. It is us who are risking a lot for going to Florida this winter. Please don't plunk us all in your premeditated "carrying a present" box.

[graciegirl]

He cdc has provided this information. The percentage is 6% for Covid only deaths.

Six people out of 100 dead as a doornail. I easily know a hundred people and y'all do too. I like them all and love a bunch of them.

[Dana1963]

Went to Brownwood tonight, for dinner. Spent about 2 hours with a multi course meal. Restaurant had customers, but not overly busy.

But what we did notice was the lack of people at the square listening to music. There were about 30 when we first got to the restaurant, all social distancing. When we left there were fewer. A very helpful ticket taker, asked as we strolled around the square, if we had our tickets to enter.

We mentioned how few people there were and Felt bad the band had very few Patrons.

He mentioned amount of tickets that could be used for Brownwood, not even A 1/4 was there.

The tickets were all taken, but most no shows. He said there were people getting tickets, and then ripping them up, to make sure as many as possible could not attend. He said it was sad that some have decided to control other people lives.

Have no idea if it’s true, but every night tickets are not available, and have very few people attend. But given the fact that some are extremely unhappy people are out and about, it would not surprise me
The attendant at the square is probably low on the food chain of employment, do you think they are around when tickets are distributed. With all the hoopla about squares opening, I don't think it's that import to most Villagers.
I have observed the webcams for all three squares and seems to have low attendance.

[golfing eagles]

Six people out of 100 dead as a doornail. I easily know a hundred people and y'all do too. I like them all and love a bunch of them.

That's not what the CDC said. 6% of deaths attributed to COVID are from the virus only, not 6% of every hundred people! YIKES! That would be 20 million "dead as a doornail"
However, that 6% number has been since disputed.

If a person has a co-morbidity but was destined to live 25 more years then died after contracting the virus, that should be counted as a COVID death. If a person with stage 4 pancreatic ca was going to die in 6 hours, then I would not count it. And a 22 year old critically injured in a motorcycle accident who happens to test positive certainly is NOT a COVID death. Remember, statistics don't lie, PEOPLE lie with statistics.

[meridian5850]

I continue be amazed at how many folks seem to think everyone they encounter has the virus, when in fact, several days ago Dr. Mike Ryan, WHO Health Emergencies Program Director, said their best guess is that 10% of the world's population has been infected, or about 750 million people. WHO's data says that about 1 million people have died from it. Disregarding whether they died "from" it or "with" it, doing the basic math:

1,000,000 ÷ 750,000,000 = .0013
.0013 x 100 = 0.13% death rate of those infected

OR 99.87% of everyone who gets it survive.

Covid-19: World in ‘for a hell of a ride’ in coming months, Dr Mike Ryan says (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/covid-19-world-in-for-a-hell-of-a-ride-in-coming-months-dr-mike-ryan-says-1.4370626?fbclid=IwAR19_KH6Q7gkLnCFlBglologLJSmHNo 0_hTIFw59NyFrgwD6xkiX8umEr1s)

There have been 7.7 million cases in the USA, well below the 10% figure above. The 2009 H1N1 flu infected over 60,000,000 people. Which one was more contagious? The average death rate for the seasonal flu is 0.1% vs. 0.13% to Covid-19. No one batted an eye back then thinking they might get the flu and so many ITT in a panic for this.

Also, 40% of the deaths in the USA are from nursing homes because the governors of 4 or 5 states thought it was smart to put covid patients into them.

[Byte1]

I would only be "okay" with that if insurance companies refuse to cover anyone with COVID-19 if they didn't have any masks with them (in their glove compartment, in their purses, hanging from the rear view mirror, on the seat, in the house, anything). You can't prove that they weren't wearing a mask when they contracted the virus. But you can prove lack of personal responsibility if they don't even own a mask.

If people want to be responsible for their own health, I say have at it. Just don't expect my tax dollars to pay for your medical care when you screw up.

I assume that you also wear gloves and eye protection. We might as well do it right.

[Byte1]

Six people out of 100 dead as a doornail. I easily know a hundred people and y'all do too. I like them all and love a bunch of them.

That doesn't figure in The Villages. The death toll attributed to the virus in The Villages is low enough that a rough computation makes it less than a half of one percent.

I wonder what the overall death rate this year is compared to last year or the year before.

[Malsua]

That's not what the CDC said. 6% of deaths attributed to COVID are from the virus only, not 6% of every hundred people! YIKES! That would be 20 million "dead as a doornail"
However, that 6% number has been since disputed.

If a person has a co-morbidity but was destined to live 25 more years then died after contracting the virus, that should be counted as a COVID death. If a person with stage 4 pancreatic ca was going to die in 6 hours, then I would not count it. And a 22 year old critically injured in a motorcycle accident who happens to test positive certainly is NOT a COVID death. Remember, statistics don't lie, PEOPLE lie with statistics.

A similar thing can be said about FLU. People are always tossing about "But flu kills 60,000 a year" or whatever number. The actual number of deaths due only to FLU is under 5k a year. Most of them actually die of Pneumonia. Most of them also had co-morbidities.

I don't know of a single person who ever died of the FLU. I do know two people who died of Covid-19. One was in her 80s, the other was in his 90s. How much longer did either have? I don't know, but Covid certainly accelerated the process.

I think if you look at the charts that show how the infection burns through a geographic region then peters off to nearly nothing, you start to realize that everyone has to take a big ole bite of the poo sandwich. In other words, this thing seems to burn through the weakest among us and then...not so much. I'm all for taking precautions and one thing we aren't getting from any of the "SCIENCE" types is preparing your own terrain to be hostile to the virus.

Studies on Vitamin D have shown it drastically improved outcomes. Reduces death, reduces severity, complications, on and on. Further retrospective studies have shown that most of the worst outcomes came in patients who were deficient. You hear a recommendation on taking a supplement from anyone? No? Why not. The Science is there. Even Web MD ran an article on it. Low Vitamin D Levels Tied to Odds for Severe COVID (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200925/low-vitamin-d-levels-tied-to-higher-odds-for-severe-covid#1)

Spend some time researching it, there has been a lot of research done on it, all of it says the same thing. If your Vitamin D level falls below a certain level and you get CV19, you're going to have a bad go of it.

[Two Bills]

You can play with numbers as much as you like.
Argue obout with Covid or from Covid as much as you like.
Whichever way you think, it still come down to tens of thousand of deaths because of Covid.
Why the big argument about doing something to help reduce the risk?
Even if it is only a few % it must be worth it.
A bullet proof vest doesn't stop you getting your arms legs head or balls being blown off, but it gives some protection, and a mask is a lot easier to wear!

[ts12755]

Wearing a mask won't end this virus... The only way to end the virus is to not let anyone in or out of the country. Shut all business including Walmart, Publix, Postal Service, Publix, etc. And lock all people in their homes, including police for 45 days.

[wmcgowan]

stay the course...this isn't going to last forever

continue to take control of your life/life choices....do what you feel comfortable doing

avoid those places where you know there will be people there that are not playing it as safe as you are

you cant control other people - they will do as they please - take care of yourself - remember it's a virus - there is no cure - there is no vaccine - anybody ever take a sick kid to the Dr. who said - it's a virus - gotta ride it out - be smart be safe

[spubear2]

I have said it before and I will say it again — we are finding out who we really are and we are finding out who other people really are.

It is not just the aggravation of having to dodge barefaced, angry-looking strangers in grocery stores. It is also the bizarre behavior of people we know — or thought we knew.

In my northern life, I have been a part of a loosely connected social group of women for the past few years. We have been able to get together outside this summer with proper social distancing. We could all scoot our lawn chairs around until we felt OK.

One of the women phoned me for a normal reason, but half way through the conversation she suddenly launched into a harangue about the virus being a hoax and how stupid masks are — and then she fevered up into a creepy ode to the source of her disinformation.

I did not argue with her. I knew there was no point. I simply wrote her off. I figure if she considers me to be disposable, I will not feel bad about disposing of having her in my life, by backing away — backing up, both figuratively and literally.

She has no idea though where I have placed her in my thinking. Actually, that makes me feel kind of guilty, not because I am finished with her but because I did not speak up. I feel guilty because I am so good at the suburban social dance. Damn.

Boomer

Boomer - I hear you. I think you did the right thing!

[Katydyd]

Most people are behaving.

This morning everyone in Big Lots and mostly everyone at Walmarts are masked up

I just decided to stop shopping at Wal-Mart. Not at all safe inside, and every time I try pick-up, they say they have my most important item, then when I get there, they don't. Or, they tell me to pick it up inside the store, totally defeating the purpose of doing pick-up or delivery. Life is too short, and there are too many other stores following the rules. Big Lots and Dollar General seem to follow the rules. I have too many immunocompromised people I love in my life to risk infecting them. I have to sadly admit "culling the herd" has crossed my mind, but what about all the innocents they infect in their path of destruction?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

What stands out to me in the original post is the couple claiming that their civil rights would be violated if they are required to wear a mask.

This is not the first time this argument has come about. I saw a video of a guy trying to get into a store screaming that it's still a free country.

Freedom and civil rights have nothing to do with businesses requiring people that enter their premises to wear a mask.

A business has every right to decide with whom and under what circumstances they will do business. Some upscale restaurants require men to wear a coat and tie. Some have signs saying "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Business". These requirements have nothing to do with freedom or civil rights. If you don't like the store's rules, you are free to not go in. The store is also free to set standards on which you may enter.

Some business do not allow firearms. There is not law against someone that has a permit to enter these facilities. All the business can do is to tell you to leave. If you refuse to leave, you can be arrested for trespassing, but not for violating gun laws.

What surprises me is businesses that have a sign stating that masks are required yet fail to enforce their rule. I've seen many people not wearing masks in such businesses and no one does anything about it.

Soon they'll be a vaccine and treatment for Covid-19 and this will all be behind us.

I don't like wearing a mask, but it's not a big deal to wear it when I'm on someone's property that requires it. I'm not giving up my freedom or civil rights. In fact, I just stopped doing business somewhere because they have a sign outside stating that masks are required and half of the staff are not wearing masks and some of the clients were not wearing them. In fact, I was free and it was my right not to do business with them any longer.

[kanoa1kale2]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.

I follow the requirements of the store I'm visiting. I will never disrespect the employees who are following corporate guidelines. With the current population of the U.S. around 328 million and we've only had around 8 million infected, this will be with us for a long time. My suggestion is to follow your own instincts and situation. If you are vulnerable, keep the guidelines. If not, just use common sense but do follow the business rules. My feeling is none of us know how much time we have left, could be tonight, could be 20 years from now. Do I want to spend the time isolated? No and I won't. Will I tempt fate by diving in to a situation where there is a high chance of contracting it, No. Depending on the strain you get, it can be mild or devastating, including death. The country cannot afford to lock down again and I don't expect that to happen.

[FromNY]

Tired of the statement wear the mask to protect others. I tested negative. I wear the Mask to protect me from you. I wear gloves in stores to protect my hands from your germs. Yes I know how to safely remove them. My skin has to many broken areas and requires protection. I do not like to wear them I do not like masks. What I do like is living.. Commodities puts me at risk. So I do what I need to do to protect me. If that helps you too that is an extra point in life's game.
Everyone has a right to move away from those they do not want to swap air or space with. If you approach me without a mask you will see my hand go up as a stop and I will move away from you. Check my eyes for the smile . It is not about you. It is for me. May we all accomplish what it is we think we want and need. Just be kind.

[cherylncliff]

The key is to stay the course while scientists develop vaccines and effective therapies. Those should start coming out by next spring or summer. Once we have vaccines and therapies then it becomes more like colds or flu. During WWII Germany invaded Russia and it looked really bad for the Russians but they held on knowing that come winter, the advantage would turn to them. Just hold out while we rally the defenses.

[Barefoot]

...

[NotGolfer]

I read through all of the responses and the thought came to me about the Far East where they wear masks all the time (because of the air quality---or lack there-of)...yet China had a (what sounded to us) a large group of infected people and deaths back when this started. Why would they get the virus if they were wearing masks? I personally don't have any family or friends who've had it---but have heard of some friends/relatives of friends who have. I've had SARS (I think it was anyway) as well as the H1N1. What was the strain 3 yrs ago that filled up the hospital? I had that one, along with pneumonia but not hospitalized for it. We've ALL heard conflicting reports---numbers, wear the mask/don't wear the mask---with all the conflicting stuff it filled everyone with fear. The fear in turn has made people snappy. People, who otherwise were quite civil prior to this past Feb./March. Will this end? I wonder if the folks back during the flu of 1918 acted the way people are acting now? Many questions on this whole thing that haven't been answered fully.

[Johnsocat]

For those who feel the government should mandate or it is ok for the government to mandate safety measures: how would you feel if the government mandated the covid vaccine when it becomes available?

[Mary Windsor]

Where in the Constitution does it say that you have the right to put others at risk? Where is the thoughtful nature of folks gone? Is this what our service men and women sacrificed their lives for?

[yankygrl]

Tired of the statement wear the mask to protect others. I tested negative. I wear the Mask to protect me from you. I wear gloves in stores to protect my hands from your germs. Yes I know how to safely remove them. My skin has to many broken areas and requires protection. I do not like to wear them I do not like masks. What I do like is living.. Commodities puts me at risk. So I do what I need to do to protect me. If that helps you too that is an extra point in life's game.
Everyone has a right to move away from those they do not want to swap air or space with. If you approach me without a mask you will see my hand go up as a stop and I will move away from you. Check my eyes for the smile . It is not about you. It is for me. May we all accomplish what it is we think we want and need. Just be kind.
Wearing gloves to protect you is fine, however, everything you touch is now contaminated with whatever you have touched. Would happen without gloves also, those who don’t wear gloves are at risk. Are we at an increased risk then before? I think not.

[mrf6969]

WE just got back from Walmart this Monday morning and EVERYONE we saw in the store had a mask on. I think you are speaking to and focusing on an isolated situation. Please take a breath and together we will get through this.

[jklfairwin]

Wearing a mask provides some protection for the wearer, but the more important function is protecting others from you,. If one contracts the virus he/she is contagious for several days before any symptoms appear. So many contagius people are unaware and spreading the virus to others.

[Joe V.]

Where in the Constitution does it say that you have the right to put others at risk? Where is the thoughtful nature of folks gone? Is this what our service men and women sacrificed their lives for?

This has not a thing to do with veterans and their service. As one, please leave me out of this.

[chewy]

Up until recently the governor and others around the country have attempted to "hide" their belief and support of the "herd immunity" approach. They are not open about using the term but by reactions it is obvious at this time they are " all ahead full " to support it.

[Byte1]

Where in the Constitution does it say that you have the right to put others at risk? Where is the thoughtful nature of folks gone? Is this what our service men and women sacrificed their lives for?

Actually, I am putting NO ONE at risk. They are putting themselves at risk if they see me (If I am not wearing a mask) and still approach. It is not my responsibility to retreat. It is your responsibility to be cautious. You do not keep walking toward a snake, gator or a coyote when you spot one, do you? Sorry, but I am not my brother's keeper. If you think otherwise, then you misunderstand the Constitution. If I was a bus driver and I was recklessly operating a bus full of passengers, then I would be putting someone at risk. If I put a sign on my vehicle, warning folks that I am a terrible driver and that if they rode with me they were putting their lives at risk, then it would be their problem if they insisted on riding with me. And if they did ride with me, they would have no right to demand that I change my behavior. Get it?

That said, I wear my mask and sometimes wear gloves. I have been tempted to wear my military gas mask when shopping, just to see the reaction of some folks:clap2: However, I do not care if others wear their mask or not. Friday, I went to a restaurant that continued to fill until it was at full capacity. I enjoyed my meal and left. Far as I know, I do not have the virus.....yet. I have no intention of wearing a mask when I am eating. If they start demanding that we wear a mask I will not eat out.

[Barefoot]

Soon they'll be a vaccine and treatment for Covid-19 and this will all be behind us.
Do you promise? I don't think there will be a vaccine anytime soon.
I don't think there will be a vaccine available until mid-2021.

[Aloha1]

Wearing a mask won't end this virus... The only way to end the virus is to not let anyone in or out of the country. Shut all business including Walmart, Publix, Postal Service, Publix, etc. And lock all people in their homes, including police for 45 days.

That didn't work so well for Europe, did it?

[MandoMan]

.
.
...after reading your post, one phrase immediately came to mind - 'roll with the punches'. Life always presents those inevitable punches.

That's exactly what we've been doing since March. Life's not over, simply different. I do understand that it's easier for us to roll with those punches. Retired. Live in The Villages. Financially OK. Family settled and healthy. All healthy.

But the "rolling" included canceling plans, esp travel. Less activities. Less friends. Less entertainment out. Less fun.

The impact has been so great on so many worldwide. And it's not over. yet. We do have faith that medicines and healthcare have greatly improved since March. And that vaccines WILL be available within months. And that we will be inoculated in time NOT to get COVID.

So, until then, we will continue to roll with any punches that come our way. And live life to the fullest we can. period.
.
.

Last night I had dinner at the home of my girlfriend’s brother and sister-in-law. Their dad died of the virus last month, and their mother nearly died, but has been negative for several weeks now, though her dementia is much worse.

The sister-in-law is in charge of phase three testing for the vaccine being worked on by Sanofi (I think it may also be working on it together with Glaxo-Smith-Kline, but I’m not certain). A month ago she was hopeful that the phase three testing would go fast, but it’s not. She thinks that if the Sanofi vaccine turns out to be safe enough to be approved and marketed, it is more likely to be at the end of 2021, rather than 2020, and she thinks that may be the case with some of the vaccines we are told are ready for approval. This is not some plot by any political party or a failure by a president. It’s just very difficult to run the trials and gather all the information, and a lot of the very promising vaccines may not work.

She says she assumes that most people will get COVID-19 eventually. However, she says it’s a lot better to get it now than it was six months ago, and it will be a lot better to get it in six months than it is now. More is known about treating it, and the treatments are improving, even without a vaccine. Most of the people who die will have other contributing factors, especially age, so their life-expectancy is limited anyway. (My girlfriend’s dad was 91 and had COPD and had had lots of stents put into his arteries, so his days were numbered in any case.)

As for people who catch this because they don’t follow the safety rules because they insist on their freedoms, think about the people who refuse to wear seatbelts because of their need for freedom, or the motorcycle riders or equestrians who don’t wear helmets and die much younger than they might otherwise have died. Maybe I’m lacking in empathy (well, actually, I am, for medical reasons), but I’ll be sorry they are gone, but I will certainly say, “They are sleeping in the bed they made for themselves.” It’s tough, though, if they also infect their loved ones, or the rest of us. Tough luck! Sorry, Charlie, but you’re the one who chose to bite that hook because you lack self-control.

So, I will continue to wear my mask and a new pair of gloves and—most important at all—keep my distance.

Imagine if we were told this virus will be with us from now on, and it will never get better, and what we have to do now is what we will have to do for the rest of our lives. What if you were told that? Would you be willing to be alive if you knew you would never again be able to eat in a crowded restaurant or drink in a packed bar or praise God in a crowded church or praise players in a crowded stadium or go to a movie or hug friends or go on a date? Well, of course, there are plenty of people with low immunity who are in that condition. I have a friend who had his immune system removed in order to stay alive, and he had to live in a “bubble” for a year. He treasures his life. He doesn’t think it’s better to die than wear a mask.

I keep thinking about what would happen as a result of a nuclear war. What if we had to change our way of living for decades or centuries because of radiation? Would some people declare that radiation isn’t real? Would they go out without masks or eat contaminated food? They can’t just declare themselves immune to radiation poisoning.

[LianneMigiano]

Those people who refuse to wear a mask are imposing their potential virus carrying potential onto me. They have no right to potentially expose me to the coronavirus!

[rmd2]

That's not what the CDC said. 6% of deaths attributed to COVID are from the virus only, not 6% of every hundred people! YIKES! That would be 20 million "dead as a doornail"
However, that 6% number has been since disputed.

If a person has a co-morbidity but was destined to live 25 more years then died after contracting the virus, that should be counted as a COVID death. If a person with stage 4 pancreatic ca was going to die in 6 hours, then I would not count it. And a 22 year old critically injured in a motorcycle accident who happens to test positive certainly is NOT a COVID death. Remember, statistics don't lie, PEOPLE lie with statistics.

I agree. Does anyone know the total number of deaths in The Villages attributed to Covid?

[rmhill4]

Agree wholeheartedly. Let nature take its course. Live your life!

[Byte1]

I agree. Does anyone know the total number of deaths in The Villages attributed to Covid?

I think it is a little over 70 deaths total. Something less than a half of a percent of the total residents here.
I would be interested in seeing the total amount of deaths for the past three or four years and compare them with the total deaths in 2020.

[jimjamuser]

Out and about this past few days I am coming to the conclusion that trying to fight this virus is a losing battle.

We, my little family, are doing our part in every way possible, masks, social distancing, dining out or take out, no small groups indoors. But, this weekend I noticed more and more people becoming truly belligerent over the masking for shopping, i.e. WalMart yesterday ... young couple absolutely refusing to wear a mask and just pushed right into the store saying "you cannot take away my civil rights". People, mostly elderly men, in Publix without masks and not socially distancing to cash out. Today at P;aneras in SLS people not wearing masks and not distancing, and then throw in the crazy woman who was screaming about politics to everyone who would stop and listen.

I am sick and tired of this awful situation and am suggesting, we just give up and let nature take its course. If someone is sure that the virus is a hoax and will not kill anyone, let them have at it and cull the herd that way. The rest of us who do want to live without catching this virus can go on our merry way protecting ourselves.

What say you ..... for or against with good reasons.
Its called "Covid fatigue". The US is catching it and also some parts of Europe. Australia and Asian Countries have very little CV problems. Google epidemiologist Michael Osterholm for more information.

[Byte1]

Those people who refuse to wear a mask are imposing their potential virus carrying potential onto me. They have no right to potentially expose me to the coronavirus!

Nope. They have a right until someone mandates by law that everyone wear a mask. Therefore, they are not "imposing" anything. As long as you have the ability to protect yourself from the virus, no one else can be responsible for your putting yourself at risk.

[rmd2]

There are 331,002, 651 total people in the US as of 2020. There have been 210,000 total deaths in the US due to COVID. Could someone check my stats because this shows that .0006% have died in the US due to COVID. A VERY low percent.

[Bucco]

You can play with numbers as much as you like.
Argue obout with Covid or from Covid as much as you like.
Whichever way you think, it still come down to tens of thousand of deaths because of Covid.
Why the big argument about doing something to help reduce the risk?
Even if it is only a few % it must be worth it.
A bullet proof vest doesn't stop you getting your arms legs head or balls being blown off, but it gives some protection, and a mask is a lot easier to wear!

You are correct in total.

Lacking any national doctrine or message on handling this thing, we are on our own.

Those who want to argue this and make it political....well, you are on your own, and obviously you feel the same way about the rest of us.

This is unique. Called for a unique plan back in January. Without it, we are on our own

[Bucco]

There are 331,002, 651 total people in the US as of 2020. There have been 210,000 total deaths in the US due to COVID. Could someone check my stats because this shows that .0006% have died in the US due to COVID. A VERY low percent.

Unless you or yours is one of those stats

[jimjamuser]

.
.
...after reading your post, one phrase immediately came to mind - 'roll with the punches'. Life always presents those inevitable punches.

That's exactly what we've been doing since March. Life's not over, simply different. I do understand that it's easier for us to roll with those punches. Retired. Live in The Villages. Financially OK. Family settled and healthy. All healthy.

But the "rolling" included canceling plans, esp travel. Less activities. Less friends. Less entertainment out. Less fun.

The impact has been so great on so many worldwide. And it's not over. yet. We do have faith that medicines and healthcare have greatly improved since March. And that vaccines WILL be available within months. And that we will be inoculated in time NOT to get COVID.

So, until then, we will continue to roll with any punches that come our way. And live life to the fullest we can. period.
.
.
I agree with everything except the optimism about vaccines. It could take 2 doses. It will be hard to distribute to everyone. It requires extremely low temperature storage. Many groups of people will REFUSE to take it. The problems are large and are not realized by the general public yet.

[Joepearson55804@gmail.com]

Don't give up! Continue to wear the mask. Here is what "smart guy", Dr. Fauci says Dr. Fauci: You Should Have Mask Wearing, Distancing In 'Any Situation, Without Exception' | MSNBC - YouTube (https://youtu.be/vfcznSIQQA4)

[jimjamuser]

I have said it before and I will say it again — we are finding out who we really are and we are finding out who other people really are.

It is not just the aggravation of having to dodge barefaced, angry-looking strangers in grocery stores. It is also the bizarre behavior of people we know — or thought we knew.

In my northern life, I have been a part of a loosely connected social group of women for the past few years. We have been able to get together outside this summer with proper social distancing. We could all scoot our lawn chairs around until we felt OK.

One of the women phoned me for a normal reason, but half way through the conversation she suddenly launched into a harangue about the virus being a hoax and how stupid masks are — and then she fevered up into a creepy ode to the source of her disinformation.

I did not argue with her. I knew there was no point. I simply wrote her off. I figure if she considers me to be disposable, I will not feel bad about disposing of having her in my life, by backing away — backing up, both figuratively and literally.

She has no idea though where I have placed her in my thinking. Actually, that makes me feel kind of guilty, not because I am finished with her but because I did not speak up. I feel guilty because I am so good at the suburban social dance. Damn.

Boomer
That is one beautifully worded post. Like a professional writer, possibly. Anyway, I have had to stop many activities and shut down past friendships because of CV disagreements. I can forgive my former friends for disagreeing with me, no problem. I understand that 1/2 of America is in a propaganda trance - because of polarizing Television channels and social media's math model that drives their users further into one of 2 camps and down a rabbit hole. The US and TV Land are fast approaching a tipping point as to a TOTAL way of life change. So, buckle up and be prepared for a VERY rough next couple of months. Nice to know how aware and smart some TV Landers really are!

[Number 10 GI]

I have rarely seen any of this. When in Walmart I see everyone masked and Publix and other stores. You will always have one nitwit who geels its their right to do what they want. Its not that lrevalent at all

I don't see that many people without masks in the stores either, the majority of people are wearing masks.

[brfree1411@aol.com]

I think if people want to be stupid let them!

[Number 10 GI]

For those who feel the government should mandate or it is ok for the government to mandate safety measures: how would you feel if the government mandated the covid vaccine when it becomes available?

It's been a long time ago, I think in the late 70's or so, there was a flu virus going around that was worrisome, new and improved or whatever. Just don't remember the name of it anymore. There was a new vaccine that was rushed through it's testing and wasn't proved to be totally safe. I was in the army at the time and we were required to be vaccinated, no refusing. Myself and several of my fellow soldiers had adverse reactions to the vaccine, nothing serious, but we had fevers and aches from it. I don't recall any serious reactions or deaths but I didn't like being an involuntary lab rat. The government knew of the risks but decided GI's were a great source for test subjects and seemed to believe that the ends justified the means.

[Malsua]

It's been a long time ago, I think in the late 70's or so, there was a flu virus going around that was worrisome, new and improved or whatever. Just don't remember the name of it anymore. There was a new vaccine that was rushed through it's testing and wasn't proved to be totally safe. I was in the army at the time and we were required to be vaccinated, no refusing. Myself and several of my fellow soldiers had adverse reactions to the vaccine, nothing serious, but we had fevers and aches from it. I don't recall any serious reactions or deaths but I didn't like being an involuntary lab rat. The government knew of the risks but decided GI's were a great source for test subjects and seemed to believe that the ends justified the means.

1976 Swine flu, H1N1. The vaccine caused Guillain-barre syndrome in some people. It's an auto-immune disease. The first GP I worked for was on the front lines for that one and told me the whole sordid story of it. That is the primary reason vaccines take so long these days.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Arizona'''s Coronavirus Cases Declined 75 Percent After Mask Mandates | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/health/arizona-coronavirus-cases-down-75-percent-after-mask-mandates-closed-bars/)

hmmm, somehow magically masks have an effect. Of course the health care industry have been wearing masks for a long time for the same reason, even your dentist probably wore one before COVID. . .

Yes, i know people second hand who have died, and I don't have confidence that I know all my co-morbidities, so I don't really want to gamble on what I don't know, which is how my body will respond, but i do know that as the air conditioning is less needed and people spend more time outside, the rate of infections will drop, and in the north, the opposite will happen, as it is now.

So do you know which co-morbidities you have which will be considered a weakness for the virus to attack?

sportsguy

[Zenmama18]

Mr. and I have gotten used to masks due to family members and friend who are immunocompromised (chemo, transplant, etc). A very small inconvenience to help ensure their safety. Not really different, you don't know who in the Publix or at the mailboxes may be in the same situation.

[coffeebean]

Just stay home
That is not the answer. What a cop out.

[coffeebean]

Unfortunately, 'they' never report how many COVID-19 deaths also had PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS... so we don't really know how many were truly COVID-19 deaths.

How many of those who died of Covid with pre-exiting conditions would have lived many more years taking medication to control their pre-existing conditions?

[Byte1]

That is not the answer. What a cop out.

Actually, it is a legitimate and logical answer. Stay home if you are worried about becoming infected. Protect yourself. You cannot demand others to protect you.

[graciegirl]

Actually, it is a legitimate and logical answer. Stay home if you are worried about becoming infected. Protect yourself. You cannot demand others to protect you.

I agree with that.

Plus we all know about laws forbidding illegal drugs and having guns. Yup.

[tophcfa]

Having spent time recently both in the Villages and at our northern home, I personally feel much safer going out and about, and not catching Covid, while in the Villages. Sure, the Villages has it‘s share of Covidiots and Maskholes, but in general it is much safer in the bubble. Outside of the bubble it is very evident that quarantine burnout is growing daily. Older people are more vulnerable and tend to be more patient, making the Villages relatively safe. In general, wherever younger people are, watch out! This will get even worse up north as it gets colder and more people gather indoors. It’s going to be a long fall and winter, Covid won’t suddenly disappear when the ball drops on New Years : (

[Snowprint]

The key is to shun & make those who disregard those who refuse to wear masks pariahs. Anyone who goes to large gatherings like weddings, bars, etc without following CDC guidelines should be called out for being dangerous to society. It won’t happen now, but if the leadership is changed, it’s time to jail violators or lock them up in their own houses. This was done in China. China has many times more people than America with higher population densities, yet it’s America that is the poster boy for how NOT to handle a pandemic. The Midwest is raging with COVID19 to no one’s surprise when they encouraged an event like Sturgis where a half million drunk bikers were cheered on to come party & the lead act singer proclaims “F..k COVID” to rapturous applause.
No, don’t give up! Do make the people who are blissfully helping COVID19 persona non grata!

[Byte1]

The key is to shun & make those who disregard those who refuse to wear masks pariahs. Anyone who goes to large gatherings like weddings, bars, etc without following CDC guidelines should be called out for being dangerous to society. It won’t happen now, but if the leadership is changed, it’s time to jail violators or lock them up in their own houses. This was done in China. China has many times more people than America with higher population densities, yet it’s America that is the poster boy for how NOT to handle a pandemic. The Midwest is raging with COVID19 to no one’s surprise when they encouraged an event like Sturgis where a half million drunk bikers were cheered on to come party & the lead act singer proclaims “F..k COVID” to rapturous applause.
No, don’t give up! Do make the people who are blissfully helping COVID19 persona non grata!

I am sure that shunning someone will make some feel good about themselves. Those being shunned may not care, or not even notice. So the joke will be on the ones that make the effort to shun. My daughter gave me a "T" shirt that says "I DON'T CARE" on it in big white letters. She sends me a lot of interesting shirts. She will probably get me in trouble some day, but she does make me laugh. But, I digress. The point is that one person's point of view may be important to them, but hardly a thought to others. But, go ahead through the motions if it makes you feel good.
By the way, Sturgis is not all about getting together and drinking. It's big because thousands of folks travel there once a year to see the "bikes." Many of those bikes are owned by wealthy folks that invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in them. A lot of those folks are responsible adults that are hard working or retired, NOT drunken biker gang rejects. But, to some all bikers are the same.

[Byte1]

Having spent time recently both in the Villages and at our northern home, I personally feel much safer going out and about, and not catching Covid, while in the Villages. Sure, the Villages has it‘s share of Covidiots and Maskholes, but in general it is much safer in the bubble. Outside of the bubble it is very evident that quarantine burnout is growing daily. Older people are more vulnerable and tend to be more patient, making the Villages relatively safe. In general, wherever younger people are, watch out! This will get even worse up north as it gets colder and more people gather indoors. It’s going to be a long fall and winter, Covid won’t suddenly disappear when the ball drops on New Years : (

Personally, it is my belief that the reason we do not have more infected by the virus is the lack of school age kids in The Villages. Yes, it does seem like we live in a "bubble" doesn't it? I feel that way also.. But, if you think about it we have less contagious illnesses here than in other parts of the country, that extends year round. It's not just this virus, but the flu, colds, etc. School children interact with contagious children and bring it home. Less children, less chance of infection. Thus, the feeling that we are protected. Same goes with crime. Less adolescent children, less juvenile delinquents and crime.
This is just my opinion, not science and not based on any factual studies.

[coffeebean]

I would like to comment on the mantra, "Stay home" that some people have been spouting........

Staying home does absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy but does everything to promote depression and hopelessness. Shouldn't we be all about getting our economy to be prosperous again? Shouldn't we be all about getting the children back in schools safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting college campuses operating safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting sports up and running again with actual fans in the seats and filling those stadiums and arenas to full capacity? How about being able to do grocery shopping in the store and not having to order on line? Not to mention, dining in restaurants and giving the service people their livelihoods back to what they were prepandemic.

Staying home stifles all of this. Yes, I do believe telling people to "stay home" is absolutely wrong on every level. We have to learn to live with this virus out there. That does not mean we should "stay home". That means social distancing, wearing masks, washing our hands frequently and do not touch our faces when our hands are not freshly washed.

Listen to the experts and do what they say. Don't be a science denier and write your own rules. Most of all, please don't tell people to "stay home".

[golfing eagles]

i would like to comment on the mantra, "stay home" that some people have been spouting........

Staying home does absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy but does everything to promote depression and hopelessness. Shouldn't we be all about getting our economy to be prosperous again? Shouldn't we be all about getting the children back in schools safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting college campuses operating safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting sports up and running again with actual fans in the seats and filling those stadiums and arenas to full capacity? How about being able to do grocery shopping in the store and not having to order on line? Not to mention, dining in restaurants and giving the service people their livelihoods back to what they were prepandemic.

Staying home stifles all of this. Yes, i do believe telling people to "stay home" is absolutely wrong on every level. We have to learn to live with this virus out there. That does not mean we should "stay home". That means social distancing, wearing masks, washing our hands frequently and do not touch our faces when our hands are not freshly washed.

Listen to the experts and do what they say. Don't be a science denier and write your own rules. Most of all, please don't tell people to "stay home".

well said!!!

[Pettys1]

That's just crazy... That's like people who get cancer if there lifestyle is different don't pay for treatment...Most people out are wearing mask. An there are some who don't. So if you have a mask then your protected... So don't worry bout the ones who don't. If you really want to protect yourself live in a bubble no context with anything in the outside world.

[golfing eagles]

That's just crazy... That's like people who get cancer if there lifestyle is different don't pay for treatment...Most people out are wearing mask. An there are some who don't. So if you have a mask then your protected... So don't worry bout the ones who don't. If you really want to protect yourself live in a bubble no context with anything in the outside world.

What gave you THAT idea?

[Malsua]

What gave you THAT idea?

The media has pushed this idea.

Anyone that has paid any attention to this you learn a couple things.

1. You can't hide from it.
2. You can reduce your inoculum. How much? Any helps. You can go from an LD50 dose of virus to a toxic or "therapeutic" dose which might mean you have an asymptomatic case or just some sniffles.
3. Mask wearing seems to be associated with increasing cases. That's bad right? Except that the cases seem to be 95% asymptomatic. That's a win anyway you look at it.

One particular study on it is here:
Masks Do More Than Protect Others During COVID-19: Reducing the Inoculum of SARS-CoV-2 to Protect the Wearer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7393808/)

I don't think wearing masks outside does anything. Driving alone in your car? Asinine. In close proximity, indoors, to people with unknown infection status? Better than nothing. Masks will stop viral laden droplets going both directions, in or out. This will give you the best chance at a low initial inoculum.

By the same token, it certainly looks like this thing burns through a region, taking out the weakest and then it's predominantly done. The Northeast went through it in March and April, the south in June and July, now it's the upper midwest's turn. Then it's mostly done, running out of hosts. It's the same everywhere. Look at where it was active in Spain in the spring, look where it's active in Spain now. They are opposites. Every country, it's the same. I hate to break it to New Zealand but eventually they are going to get the big spike. Locking the doors doesn't work forever. Maybe they can hold on until there's an effective vaccine.

[golfing eagles]

The media has pushed this idea.

Anyone that has paid any attention to this you learn a couple things.

1. You can't hide from it.
2. You can reduce your inoculum. How much? Any helps. You can go from an LD50 dose of virus to a toxic or "therapeutic" dose which might mean you have an asymptomatic case or just some sniffles.
3. Mask wearing seems to be associated with increasing cases. That's bad right? Except that the cases seem to be 95% asymptomatic. That's a win anyway you look at it.

One particular study on it is here:
Masks Do More Than Protect Others During COVID-19: Reducing the Inoculum of SARS-CoV-2 to Protect the Wearer (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7393808/)

I don't think wearing masks outside does anything. Driving alone in your car? Asinine. In close proximity, indoors, to people with unknown infection status? Better than nothing. Masks will stop viral laden droplets going both directions, in or out. This will give you the best chance at a low initial inoculum.

By the same token, it certainly looks like this thing burns through a region, taking out the weakest and then it's predominantly done. The Northeast went through it in March and April, the south in June and July, now it's the upper midwest's turn. Then it's mostly done, running out of hosts. It's the same everywhere. Look at where it was active in Spain in the spring, look where it's active in Spain now. They are opposites. Every country, it's the same. I hate to break it to New Zealand but eventually they are going to get the big spike. Locking the doors doesn't work forever. Maybe they can hold on until there's an effective vaccine.

I agree with most of what you posted, except:
1) You really can't apply the term LD50 to a viral inoculum like you would to a dose of poison---the correlation between dose and death isn't that tight
2) the best way to reduce inoculum size is distance.

[Malsua]

I agree with most of what you posted, except:
1) You really can't apply the term LD50 to a viral inoculum like you would to a dose of poison---the correlation between dose and death isn't that tight
2) the best way to reduce inoculum size is distance.

I agree that distance is best, far and away.

As to LD50 and viral inoculum, they did exactly that with mice. They kept shooting them up the nose with stronger and stronger viral inoculum of H5N1 until they found the LD50 dose of it.

A Mouse Model for the Evaluation of Pathogenesis and Immunity to Influenza A (H5N1) Viruses Isolated from Humans (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC112651/)

Of course with humans, there is a lot more involved since we aren't lab rats and no two humans are identical. There is certainly a correlation with the amount of initial exposure to virus to outcome. It also appears that in many cases, tcells squash the virus before you end up with any level of bcell antibodies. The PCR test in the "asymptomatics" in many cases is probably detecting viral debris, not active virus. This is probably because the initial inoculum was quite low. Either that or they are running the cycle threshold out to 40+.

Best way to get a low inoculum is distance. Second best way is shielding. Since I can't walk around in a plexiglass cocoon, I'll have to settle on masking indoors in close proximity only.

[golfing eagles]

I agree that distance is best, far and away.

As to LD50 and viral inoculum, they did exactly that with mice. They kept shooting them up the nose with stronger and stronger viral inoculum of H5N1 until they found the LD50 dose of it.

A Mouse Model for the Evaluation of Pathogenesis and Immunity to Influenza A (H5N1) Viruses Isolated from Humans (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC112651/)

Of course with humans, there is a lot more involved since we aren't lab rats and no two humans are identical. There is certainly a correlation with the amount of initial exposure to virus to outcome. It also appears that in many cases, tcells squash the virus before you end up with any level of bcell antibodies. The PCR test in the "asymptomatics" in many cases is probably detecting viral debris, not active virus. This is probably because the initial inoculum was quite low. Either that or they are running the cycle threshold out to 40+.

Best way to get a low inoculum is distance. Second best way is shielding. Since I can't walk around in a plexiglass cocoon, I'll have to settle on masking indoors in close proximity only.

All true, of course it is a lot easier to kill a mouse than a person. I agree that severity of illness is proportional to inoculum. The correlation between death and severity of illness would empirically seem correct, but as you know it doesn't always work that way

[coffeebean]

That's just crazy... That's like people who get cancer if there lifestyle is different don't pay for treatment...Most people out are wearing mask. An there are some who don't. So if you have a mask then your protected... So don't worry bout the ones who don't. If you really want to protect yourself live in a bubble no context with anything in the outside world.

Your statement is true but to some small degree. Masking protects the people around the wearer of the mask. Wearing a mask offers less protection to the wearer.

[oldtimes]

I would like to comment on the mantra, "Stay home" that some people have been spouting........

Staying home does absolutely nothing to stimulate the economy but does everything to promote depression and hopelessness. Shouldn't we be all about getting our economy to be prosperous again? Shouldn't we be all about getting the children back in schools safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting college campuses operating safely? Shouldn't we be all about getting sports up and running again with actual fans in the seats and filling those stadiums and arenas to full capacity? How about being able to do grocery shopping in the store and not having to order on line? Not to mention, dining in restaurants and giving the service people their livelihoods back to what they were prepandemic.

Staying home stifles all of this. Yes, I do believe telling people to "stay home" is absolutely wrong on every level. We have to learn to live with this virus out there. That does not mean we should "stay home". That means social distancing, wearing masks, washing our hands frequently and do not touch our faces when our hands are not freshly washed.

Listen to the experts and do what they say. Don't be a science denier and write your own rules. Most of all, please don't tell people to "stay home".

On this we agree. I think there is a very fine line between protecting people from the virus and killing them with the restrictions. My heart bleeds for the people with no job because of this who are unable to pay their bills. I try to support the local businesses as best I can.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

That's just crazy... That's like people who get cancer if there lifestyle is different don't pay for treatment...Most people out are wearing mask. An there are some who don't. So if you have a mask then your protected... So don't worry bout the ones who don't. If you really want to protect yourself live in a bubble no context with anything in the outside world.

If you wear a mask properly (covering your nose and face) then you have REDUCED YOUR RISK of infection. You are not "protected."

If everyone around you is also wearing a mask, that risk is significantly reduced even more. If you don't wear a mask, and everyone else is wearing one, then you might well be spreading that virus to them - because the greatest risk is with people who are infected, and not masked, spreading the infection to everyone else. Because masks don't prevent you from getting sick. It only reduces your risk.

Risk Reduction.

You can google it, or bing it, or duck duck go it, whatever floats your boat. But please look up the term "risk reduction" to learn what it means. It's basic stuff.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

On this we agree. I think there is a very fine line between protecting people from the virus and killing them with the restrictions. My heart bleeds for the people with no job because of this who are unable to pay their bills. I try to support the local businesses as best I can.

It's not a fine line at all. There's plenty of wiggle room here. And the "best practices," the best method of risk reduction while keeping the economy flowing:

Wash your hands.
Wear a mask (properly, covering nose and mouth)
Maintain a respectful distance from others.

At this point, it's not even 6 feet. If you're wearing a mask, stay at arm's length. It's not too much to ask, it's not an unreasonable request, it doesn't infringe on 'mah freedums." Don't touch me, don't breathe on me, don't get in my space. This is something you should've been doing most of your life. It's called common courtesy. Or it used to be, until someone decided that "mah freedums" were more important.

[Boomer]

It's not a fine line at all. There's plenty of wiggle room here. And the "best practices," the best method of risk reduction while keeping the economy flowing:

Wash your hands.
Wear a mask (properly, covering nose and mouth)
Maintain a respectful distance from others.

At this point, it's not even 6 feet. If you're wearing a mask, stay at arm's length. It's not too much to ask, it's not an unreasonable request, it doesn't infringe on 'mah freedums." Don't touch me, don't breathe on me, don't get in my space. This is something you should've been doing most of your life. It's called common courtesy. Or it used to be, until someone decided that "mah freedums" were more important.



Yes. Those 3 things on your list are all we’ve got so why not? It makes no sense not to try.

One thing that really surprises me is that there are women falling into the Orwellian traps.

When women love, really love, that love comes with an almost primitive instinct to protect those they love. Women can love like tigresses or mama bears.

Yet, here we are, seeing women caught up in believing what they WANT to believe about Covid — even though they could end up putting those they love at risk. I don’t get it.

Boomer

PS: I am in Ohio right now. My phone just rang. I have a doc’s appointment today and was planning to go in person. But the office just called to ask if I could do the appointment on Zoom due to increased Covid. We have taken a half step forward and two or three steps backward. . .Damn, right, I am tired of Covid but I am also tired of those who will not do what they can to get us through this. This started in winter, then came spring, summer, now fall. Four seasons — with no end in sight. This is reality.

[PugMom]

was called the hong kong flu, & don't forget the bird flu about 16 years ago

[graciegirl]

Yes. Those 3 things on your list are all we’ve got so why not? It makes no sense not to try.

One thing that really surprises me is that there are women falling into the Orwellian traps.

When women love, really love, that love comes with an almost primitive instinct to protect those they love. Women can love like tigresses or mama bears.

Yet, here we are, seeing women caught up in believing what they WANT to believe about Covid — even though they could end up putting those they love at risk. I don’t get it.

Boomer

PS: I am in Ohio right now. My phone just rang. I have a doc’s appointment today and was planning to go in person. But the office just called to ask if I could do the appointment on Zoom due to increased Covid. We have taken a half step forward and two or three steps backward. . .Damn, right, I am tired of Covid but I am also tired of those who will not do what they can to get us through this. This started in winter, then came spring, summer, now fall. Four seasons — with no end in sight. This is reality.


Be safe. Get your blood drawn and do the virtual visit. My Heart doc saw me in person. I was very insecure about going. He is old. I am old. We are both still here Thank God. Your feelings are echoed by every thinking soul I know. Be smart and safe.

We are all intensely trying to do the right thing. I do believe that the entire world feels exactly the same. This may be a test. It sure as hell isn't a conspiracy theory. That little sucker is real and He/She is waiting............................

[Boomer]

Yes. Those 3 things on your list are all we’ve got so why not? It makes no sense not to try.

One thing that really surprises me is that there are women falling into the Orwellian traps.

When women love, really love, that love comes with an almost primitive instinct to protect those they love. Women can love like tigresses or mama bears.

Yet, here we are, seeing women caught up in believing what they WANT to believe about Covid — even though they could end up putting those they love at risk. I don’t get it.

Boomer

PS: I am in Ohio right now. My phone just rang. I have a doc’s appointment today and was planning to go in person. But the office just called to ask if I could do the appointment on Zoom due to increased Covid. We have taken a half step forward and two or three steps backward. . .Damn, right, I am tired of Covid but I am also tired of those who will not do what they can to get us through this. This started in winter, then came spring, summer, now fall. Four seasons — with no end in sight. This is reality.


Be safe. Get your blood drawn and do the virtual visit. My Heart doc saw me in person. I was very insecure about going. He is old. I am old. We are both still here Thank God. Your feelings are echoed by every thinking soul I know. Be smart and safe.

We are all intensely trying to do the right thing. I do believe that the entire world feels exactly the same. This may be a test. It sure as hell isn't a conspiracy theory. That little sucker is real and He/She is waiting............................


Yes. I will be Zooming with the doc this afternoon. I will have to get my Zoom Room all ready for the background. Will he recognize me with this big silver streak on top of my head? At least my smile will get to show. (Where oh where did I put those Crest Whitestrips? I must be ready for my close-up.)

Gracie, we agree on the reality of Covid, for sure.

I cannot imagine how people, especially women, are falling for the message that tells them that they, and those they love, are disposable. It is surreal.