How is "income" defined ?

[pauld315]

I will be retiring in a few years and I am just wondering how income is defined and measured at that point. I saw a demographic that the average household income in TV was 93K. My retirement plan is made up of 3 major components. They are my pension, Social Security and a 401K. Would my income be the total of the pension, social security and whatever I decide to take out of my 401 K per year ? Or, would it also include any interest my 401K earned that particular year when they are measuring household income ? I know I still wouldn't have to pay tax on the interest until withdrawal so I know from an IRS poit of view it doesn't count as income until distributed, but when they put together these demographics, do they include that interest ?

[l2ridehd]

Just a guess, but I would think it is what is reported as income to the IRS. Any W2, 1099, SS, and other pension income.

[jblum8156]

First of all, I think it's been said in other discussions here that the 93K average or median includes a lot of people who own homes here but are not retired yet and thus still earning sizable incomes. That skews the average. I know for a fact that there are residents whose only income is Social Security. Let someone else answer the other part of your question.













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[Ohiogirl]

I am not really sure from whence these statistics come. I don't remember offering such info when I bought 4 years ago, and even if they get it from Citizens Mortgage that would include only a fraction of buyers - many, many pay cash and many others use other banks/credit unions/mortgage companies for financing.

Anyone know where this info comes from? And I agree, many buy while still working, might be counting joint incomes, etc.

[Russ_Boston]

Not to dissuade anyone from answering the question but who cares about what is reported as the average TV income.

All any of us really care about is: Can I make MY retirement work? There are homes in TV from 100K to over 1M. There is something for everyone. And you know what? They all live the same basic TV lifestyle. So I wouldn't worry too much about your concern. It seems like you have a good handle on what your income will be and where it will come from. From there make a budget and see what that income will support.

My guess would be that since 401 interest is not reportable to the IRS then it would not be included in any average income calculation.

Just my 2C.

[villa2]

First of all, I think it's been said in other discussions here that the 93K average or median includes a lot of people who own homes here but are not retired yet and thus still earning sizable incomes. That skews the average. I know for a fact that there are residents whose only income is Social Security. Let someone else answer the other part of your question.

I wonder what percentage of population in Villages rely on Social Security alone.











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I wonder what percentage of population in Villages rely on Social Security alone.

[Ohiogirl]

Good point, Russ. As a matter of fact, one of the things we like most about The Villages as compared to other retirement communities is the variety.

Although I haven't lived in them, appears to me that many other retirement communities, particularly when they are built around a (single) golf course with 1 clubhouse/restaurant/rec center, are kind of like belonging to a country club.

Everyone knows, and some care, what job position you retired from, how much you made, what co. you owned, etc. I'm sure they're not all like this, but that's my perception. Maybe I'm wrong.

After 4 years of owning and visiting in The Villages, and talking to a lot of people I meet while golfing, at the pool, etc., seems to me that the major focus here is what activities you like to do, new restaurants, golf carts, new anything in the immediate vicinity of The Villages. I just get a different feeling here - and I think those who care about such status things aren't usually attracted to The Villages anyway - they might be looking for a more homogeneous community of only upscale homes and incomes.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to EVERYONE in TV, but at least the majority seem not to care, or even very interested, in what you USED to do or how much money you appear to have. Pretty refreshing.

[pooh]

Good point, Russ. As a matter of fact, one of the things we like most about The Villages as compared to other retirement communities is the variety.

Although I haven't lived in them, appears to me that many other retirement communities, particularly when they are built around a (single) golf course with 1 clubhouse/restaurant/rec center, are kind of like belonging to a country club.

Everyone knows, and some care, what job position you retired from, how much you made, what co. you owned, etc. I'm sure they're not all like this, but that's my perception. Maybe I'm wrong.

After 4 years of owning and visiting in The Villages, and talking to a lot of people I meet while golfing, at the pool, etc., seems to me that the major focus here is what activities you like to do, new restaurants, golf carts, new anything in the immediate vicinity of The Villages. I just get a different feeling here - and I think those who care about such status things aren't usually attracted to The Villages anyway - they might be looking for a more homogeneous community of only upscale homes and incomes.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to EVERYONE in TV, but at least the majority seem not to care, or even very interested, in what you USED to do or how much money you appear to have. Pretty refreshing.

Well said. People that live here or any other retirement community have worked to achieve that goal. Doesn't matter what you did in your life before moving here, here, everyone has the same standing in TV society. People have just taken different routes and had different adventures on their way to retirement in The Villages.

[getdul981]

Good points everyone. Whenever I fill out a survey that asks for estimated family income, I always leave it blank. That comes under the heading of My Business ane None of Theirs."

[bkcunningham1]

I will be retiring in a few years and I am just wondering how income is defined and measured at that point. I saw a demographic that the average household income in TV was 93K. My retirement plan is made up of 3 major components. They are my pension, Social Security and a 401K. Would my income be the total of the pension, social security and whatever I decide to take out of my 401 K per year ? Or, would it also include any interest my 401K earned that particular year when they are measuring household income ? I know I still wouldn't have to pay tax on the interest until withdrawal so I know from an IRS poit of view it doesn't count as income until distributed, but when they put together these demographics, do they include that interest ?

Anything the IRS website attempts to explain is complicated. But scroll through this page and see if you can find answers to some of your income questions. Remember, the latest information on the IRS website is for 2009. In many discussions on these IRS pages; if the information for 2010 is known, it is shown.



http://www.irs.gov/publications/p554/ch02.html

[taylor111947]

I have been concerned about that statistic too. However, I was not taking into consideration how the people who have bought for the future and are still working now might affect the average.

Since I am still working, I don't have a good feel for what my retirement income should be. I'm not worried about meeting the everyday costs, but more about being in an environment where I can afford the costs incurred to be a part of the community - playing golf, eating out, traveling. I'm glad there appears to be a wide diversity of incomes which would govern one's lifestyle. It makes me feel more confident that I'll fit in.

[Russ_Boston]

I'm glad there appears to be a wide diversity of incomes which would govern one's lifestyle. It makes me feel more confident that I'll fit in.

Think of it this way - For your monthly amenity fee (which is basically the same per household) + a once a year cart trail fee (currently $141.24) you can:

swim at any of the pools
play any executive golf course
play tennis, pickleball, shuffleboard, boccie or join a league of same
join softball teams
dance or enjoy music every night at the squares
enjoy 100's of clubs, card games and other indoor activities
bike, run, walk or golf cart ride any of the golf trails

ALL FOR FREE (some clubs may have a fee like $10 a year dues).

I don't see social or income class being any issue in TV.

[pauld315]

Thanks for the clarification. When I saw the 93K figure, I had to step back and wonder if I was going to be able to afford to live in TV after retiring. Looks like it is still a "GO" !

[bkcunningham1]

According to the US Census,

Sumter County, FL, median household income, 2008: $48,106
Sumter County, FL, per capita money income, 1999: $16,830


Lake County, FL, median household income, 2008: $45,517
Lake County, FL, per capita money income, 1999: $20,199


Marion County, FL, median household income, 2008: $40,266
Marion County, FL, per capita money income, 1999: $17,848


http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12/12119.html

[Ohiogirl]

Think of it this way - For your monthly amenity fee (which is basically the same per household) + a once a year cart trail fee (currently $141.24) you can:

swim at any of the pools
play any executive golf course
play tennis, pickleball, shuffleboard, boccie or join a league of same
join softball teams
dance or enjoy music every night at the squares
enjoy 100's of clubs, card games and other indoor activities
bike, run, walk or golf cart ride any of the golf trails

ALL FOR FREE (some clubs may have a fee like $10 a year dues).

I don't see social or income class being any issue in TV.

Once again I agree with Russ - I just looked at my 2009 spreadsheet where I keep/track all my expenses for our 3 BR CYV, which we're been renting out about 8 mos/yr for 4 years. When I take out Florida Hotel Taxes, cleaning fees, caretaker fees, and some improvements we did, looks like the fixed expenses are easily around $10-12,000.

If you're debt free, just add your other living expenses (stuff like medical and dental - the big ones depending on your coverage and your age - groceries, travel, eating out, haircuts, auto and golf cart repairs/gas/maintenance/insurance, clothing, hobbies, cell phones, etc) and there you are. I'm guessing many, many couples AND singles live on $30,000/year or less. And with so much to do, I bet you'll spend less time (and money) shopping just because you're bored (and also because you won't have any place to put the stuff you don't need anyway)!

[rjm1cc]

Your income would be the total you show on your tax return. Thus income earned and not taken out of your 401k would not count.
When I read the 93,000 figure I thought it was rather high compared to my prior research. Did not think of the possibility that non retired owners were included. Makes sense that they are as I think the 93,000 number was to attract business to the Village for the new town center. The question I had was how much of a person’s assets are being consumed to maintain their life style.
My guess is that there is a wide distribution of income so I would not let the 93,000 figure prevent me from looking at TV. What you have to do is go through the post looking for living expenses and make up a budget for your housing expense. You will see a lot of services being purchased and you might also decide to do this work yourself. Then based on your current life style estimate what you think you will spend on food, clothing, eating out, medical costs, taxes, car, insurance, etc. If this is under your income you will probably be ok. Inflation and medical costs are probably the most uncertain areas and they will be the same no matter where you live. You will also need an emergency/major repair fund so set aside some of your assets for these purposes.

[pauld315]

Thanks, I think I have a pretty good plan and idea of what my income will be. The expense part of living in TV compared to where I currently live was what was concerning me. For me, I basically figured out how much I would need in retirement by taking my income today and subtracting out the items I would no longer have to pay for (ie: further retirement savings, SS payments, college expenses for my daughter, mortgage etc) to come up with a number that I could essentially live the same way as I do now by paying cash for a place at TV. When I saw that 93 K figure though it surprised me. I agree that may just be put out there to encourage business to open here.

[Russ_Boston]

Remember - even if the 93K figure is accurate, it by no means should be used as "what is required to live in TV" figure.

[bkcunningham1]

$44,629 is the average median household income according to the US Census figures for 2008. That is a far cry from $93,000.

There are only about 11 counties in the entire US where the median household income is $93,000 and above. Four of those are in Northern Virginia, two are in Maryland (just across the border from Virginia), three are in New Jersey, one in Colorado and one in New York.

[2BNTV]

:agree: with Russ_Boston.

:agree: with Ohiogirl:

I always said to my friends that nobody will care what you did for a living after you retire. While working, you may be known as the computer guy. the electrician guy, etc. You are define by what you do.

IMHO - Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

My uncle has said,"first you see what you like and you buy what you can afford".

Off Soapbox!!!!

[Pturner]

Not to dissuade anyone from answering the question but who cares about what is reported as the average TV income.

All any of us really care about is: Can I make MY retirement work? There are homes in TV from 100K to over 1M. There is something for everyone. And you know what? They all live the same basic TV lifestyle. So I wouldn't worry too much about your concern. It seems like you have a good handle on what your income will be and where it will come from. From there make a budget and see what that income will support.

My guess would be that since 401 interest is not reportable to the IRS then it would not be included in any average income calculation.

Just my 2C.

Good point, Russ. As a matter of fact, one of the things we like most about The Villages as compared to other retirement communities is the variety.

Although I haven't lived in them, appears to me that many other retirement communities, particularly when they are built around a (single) golf course with 1 clubhouse/restaurant/rec center, are kind of like belonging to a country club.

Everyone knows, and some care, what job position you retired from, how much you made, what co. you owned, etc. I'm sure they're not all like this, but that's my perception. Maybe I'm wrong.

After 4 years of owning and visiting in The Villages, and talking to a lot of people I meet while golfing, at the pool, etc., seems to me that the major focus here is what activities you like to do, new restaurants, golf carts, new anything in the immediate vicinity of The Villages. I just get a different feeling here - and I think those who care about such status things aren't usually attracted to The Villages anyway - they might be looking for a more homogeneous community of only upscale homes and incomes.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to EVERYONE in TV, but at least the majority seem not to care, or even very interested, in what you USED to do or how much money you appear to have. Pretty refreshing.

Think of it this way - For your monthly amenity fee (which is basically the same per household) + a once a year cart trail fee (currently $141.24) you can:

swim at any of the pools
play any executive golf course
play tennis, pickleball, shuffleboard, boccie or join a league of same
join softball teams
dance or enjoy music every night at the squares
enjoy 100's of clubs, card games and other indoor activities
bike, run, walk or golf cart ride any of the golf trails

ALL FOR FREE (some clubs may have a fee like $10 a year dues).

I don't see social or income class being any issue in TV.

What they said!

[pauld315]

bkcunningham - I understand but the 93K number is on TV website for commercial property.

Go here

http://www.thevillagescommercialproperty.com/the-villages-market.asp

scroll down a bit on the page and you will see a link for

Fig 1. Average Income per Household

[bkcunningham1]

That's pretty interesting. Did you notice the asterick for the first two bars in the graph explains the information is "Per US Census Bureau." The last bar in the graph, the one with the $93,000 figure doesn't have the asterick and it doesn't say where that information came from.

It also says, "The Villages Average Home Buyer" regarding the income. I wonder if that information comes from the mortgage company.

The average home buyer in TV may have had that reportable/taxable income when they bought their home, but years later, that may not be the case. Plus there are quite a few people who buy homes in TV and lease them for income. There are many scenerios for "home buyer" income being different than the US Census resident income.

Does that make sense?

[zcaveman]

bkcunningham - I understand but the 93K number is on TV website for commercial property.

Go here

http://www.thevillagescommercialproperty.com/the-villages-market.asp

scroll down a bit on the page and you will see a link for

Fig 1. Average Income per Household

What does it take to get some of these links to open? If I click on it, I get a new window with this same page. If I cut and paste I get Cannot display web page. (Even with Firefox)

[ajbrown]

What does it take to get some of these links to open? If I click on it, I get a new window with this same page. If I cut and paste I get Cannot display web page. (Even with Firefox)

I right click on link, "copy shortcut", then paste that.

[zcaveman]

I right click on link, "copy shortcut", then paste that.

Damn!!! That was easy. Thanks!!!

Maybe the Talk Hosts should put this in the FAQ.