R We Residents the 'Last to Know!'

[Midge538]

R we residents 'the last to know' what 'facts' are available to us.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

http://www.orlandosentinal.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-laurne-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,05465947.column

[The Shadow]

R we residents 'the last to know' what 'facts' are available to us.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

http://www.orlandosentinal.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-laurne-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,05465947.column

Part One

�Villagers can take a deep breath on those fronts. Morse and his family are extremely well capitalized � fabulously wealthy is probably a better description � and because homes in The Villages continue to sell, default on the bonds is an extremely remote possibility.� SNIP���..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

�Last to Know�? This has not been happening for the last three years according to 90% of the people on this forum. Wake up and smell the IRS. 90% of the people will tell you the Orlando Sentinel is fabricating this, I remain undecided.:shocked:

[skip0358]

As was said earlier, this is an ongoing investigation. Who knows what the outcome will be and who it will cost or how much. We'll worry about it then. This is not a secret, anybody who was looking to buy here should have known about before this. God knows it's been on TOTV enough and probably most of the same authors will chime in. One already has.

[nitehawk]

Thank You for the link - I know i will not read anything about the bond issue in the Daily Sun, if it is negitive.
90% of the people will tell you the Orlando Sentinel is fabricating this ???????

[redwitch]

I don't think I've ever heard that it was fabricated. I have heard that the reporting was biased (no question on that one -- for some reason, the Sentinel hates TV and the Morses) and that it was not accurate -- haven't managed to get all the facts on that one). The Sun has done a couple of articles on the IRS and bond issues. I believe them about as much as I believe the Sentinel -- both have their own agendas and, thus, slant the news.

But, no TVers are not the last to know if they choose to stay informed. Are they going to hear the bad things from the Morses? Not if the Morses can help it. Remember, the Sun and the local TV/radio stations are really more of an advertising media for TV than anything else. Are we going to hear the good things from the Sentinel? Nope. So, you have to look at all sources -- other local papers; online articles; local television (other than channel 2); local news radio. You can be as informed or uninformed as you choose to be.

[graciegirl]

R we residents 'the last to know' what 'facts' are available to us.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

http://www.orlandosentinal.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-laurne-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,05465947.column

Creally? Not if you read TOTV. Unfortunately you need to be a forensic auditor to understand the problem. It has been explained many times but it is something that can't be put into one sentence. I don't think that all of these smart people are having the wool pulled over their eyes. I have never regretted buying in The Villages, no matter what.

I think the Democratic Sentinel doesn't like all the money the Morses throw to the Republican party. That is my opinion.

[BlueHeronFan]

GG,

That's it in a nutshell! Florida is such a key state during general elections.
Personally, I'll just wait to see how it play's out, but I believe they have tax lawyers etc
who tell them what is legal and what and how much they would owe the IRS.

I recently read where some dentist got 42 months for tax evasion. Gee, wonder if any politicians we know will get the same????

[The Shadow]

GG,

That's it in a nutshell! Florida is such a key state during general elections. If this is a political thing, why did it start in the days of George Bush?
Personally, I'll just wait to see how it play's out, but I believe they have tax lawyers etc
who tell them what is legal and what and how much they would owe the IRS.
Lawyers do not decide what is owed the IRS.
I recently read where some dentist got 42 months for tax evasion. Gee, wonder if any politicians we know will get the same????

I could be wrong.

[graciegirl]

I do not think that the IRS investigation is a political thing. I think how it is reported in the Sentinel may have a "slant" to it.

I think that it is a matter of internal audit, to the advantage of the Morse family and why not? It isn't taking anything away from us, the residents.

These are strictly my opinions Shadow.

AND.....Shadow? Why don't you buy a home here in The Villages so it can be your problem too?

Sorry, I was teasing you a bit Shadow.

[kentucky blue]

But, no TVers are not the last to know if they choose to stay informed. Are they going to hear the bad things from the Morses? Not if the Morses can help it. Remember, the Sun and the local TV/radio stations are really more of an advertising media for TV than anything else. Are we going to hear the good things from the Sentinel? Nope. So, you have to look at all sources -- other local papers; online articles; local television (other than channel 2); local news radio. You can be as informed or uninformed as you choose to be.

After 3 visits, i have come to the conclusion that the majority of the villagers are more concerned with enjoying retirement than learning about the IRS problems. TV is their escape and they will let the"powers that be" handle the realities associated with the IRS and the outside world. Who can really blame them for wanting to escape and enjoy their retirement as stress free as possible.Hopefully, for the sake of everybody, the emperor , WILL be wearing clothes.

[nitehawk]

Creally? Not if you read TOTV. Unfortunately you need to be a forensic auditor to understand the problem. It has been explained many times but it is something that can't be put into one sentence. I don't think that all of these smart people are having the wool pulled over their eyes. I have never regretted buying in The Villages, no matter what.

I think the Democratic Sentinel doesn't like all the money the Morses throw to the Republican party. That is my opinion.

Now - Now Gracie why bring in politics????
Maybe its all Obama's fault

[graciegirl]

Now - Now Gracie why bring in politics????
Maybe its all Obama's fault

sigh

[Taj44]

There are a number of people who would like to bury their heads in the sand over this issue. I suppose some just can't admit that maybe something is not perfect about The Villages, or that perhaps there were shady dealings by the Morse family. The thing is we just don't know at this point. We don't know how things are going to turn out. We all have opinions, but there is an IRS investigation going on, for a reason, there may be repercussions, and that is all we know. To blithely say there is no problem, is just foolishness. Personally I'm not losing sleep over it. We don't have a lot invested in The Villages, and if something were to happen, we could give up the house, absorb the loss and move elsewhere. And I assume if we Villagers got shafted somehow, there would be a huge lawsuit. I see that the district has already spent over $200,000 of resident's money on high priced lawyers so far. And that's probably just the beginning. In the long run this could get very messy, and expensive for the residents.

[eremite06]

There are a number of people who would like to bury their heads in the sand over this issue. I suppose some just can't admit that maybe something is not perfect about The Villages, or that perhaps there were shady dealings by the Morse family. The thing is we just don't know at this point. We don't know how things are going to turn out. We all have opinions, but there is an IRS investigation going on, for a reason, there may be repercussions, and that is all we know. To blithely say there is no problem, is just foolishness. Personally I'm not losing sleep over it. We don't have a lot invested in The Villages, and if something were to happen, we could give up the house, absorb the loss and move elsewhere. And I assume if we Villagers got shafted somehow, there would be a huge lawsuit. I see that the district has already spent over $200,000 of resident's money on high priced lawyers so far. And that's probably just the beginning. In the long run this could get very messy, and expensive for the residents.

The two things that got my neck up were the $209,000 of our money the developer spent on attorneys and the "Blue-Sky" transactions. I think those were the over-valued assets sold to the CDD by the developer. Not sure, though.:eek:

[Bogie Shooter]

There are a number of people who would like to bury their heads in the sand over this issue. I suppose some just can't admit that maybe something is not perfect about The Villages, or that perhaps there were shady dealings by the Morse family. The thing is we just don't know at this point. We don't know how things are going to turn out. We all have opinions, but there is an IRS investigation going on, for a reason, there may be repercussions, and that is all we know. To blithely say there is no problem, is just foolishness. Personally I'm not losing sleep over it. We don't have a lot invested in The Villages, and if something were to happen, we could give up the house, absorb the loss and move elsewhere. And I assume if we Villagers got shafted somehow, there would be a huge lawsuit. I see that the district has already spent over $200,000 of resident's money on high priced lawyers so far. And that's probably just the beginning. In the long run this could get very messy, and expensive for the residents.

I agree with most of what you say, however, you say "we don't know" and then go on to say "this could get very messy, and expensive for the residents". You just as easily could have said in the long run it won't cost residents anything. This becomes the irony of the issue.....We just do not know at this point. So why speculate and alarm?

[Lou Card]

The Orlando Sentinel for some unknown reason has been critical about the Villages for years. You need to get your information from any source other than them for an accurate take on what we have to worry or not worry about here in Paradise.

[JimJoe]

I do not think the IRS issue will become expensive for the villagers DIRECTLY. The IRS issue I think will be paid IF ANYTHING IS EVER OWED from the amenity fees, or from the amentities themselves. The problem is the fees are capped by the cost of living which does not anticipate the cost of the IRS issue. I think there could be some impact on amenities if some of them have to be sold to pay for the IRS issue, or if future amenities have to be membership based.
I think once it is resolved and who knows when that will be, it could impact the completion of TV if the result is that they can't sell tax free bonds to finance the purchase of the amenities from the developer, unless if it takes long enough for build out to be completed before it is resolved.
The money spent for attorneys was not spent by the developer. My guess is it was amenity fee money spent by the CDD. Does anyone know for sure where that money came from?
I think there are many ways to deal with this issue, but it is a concern of mine. TV is far too beautiful and nice of place to have this issue pending.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[The Shadow]

The Orlando Sentinel for some unknown reason has been critical about the Villages for years. You need to get your information from any source other than them for an accurate take on what we have to worry or not worry about here in Paradise.

You could get your IRS information from �The Villages Daily Sun�. See that�s me being really funny.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsotQL3oe_x8unHJOXlvWuz7QxHja0W go2it5sxlw2arBh7Jg&t=1&usg=__NI9gV-H_RvW-ks4d5emc_cPIc7U=

[Lou Card]

[QUOTE=The Shadow;287877]You could get your IRS information from �The Villages Daily Sun�. See that�s me being really funny.

No offence shadew, but I would take the word of the Villages Daily Sun before the Orlando Sentinel.

[jmitchell]

Part One

�Villagers can take a deep breath on those fronts. Morse and his family are extremely well capitalized � fabulously wealthy is probably a better description � and because homes in The Villages continue to sell, default on the bonds is an extremely remote possibility.� SNIP���..

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

�Last to Know�? This has not been happening for the last three years according to 90% of the people on this forum. Wake up and smell the IRS. 90% of the people will tell you the Orlando Sentinel is fabricating this, I remain undecided.:shocked:

.

[BlueHeronFan]

Bravo!!

[Lou Card]

BE PREPARED -- LONG POST :blahblahblah: Although I don't think "fabricating" is probably accurate, something is not right with these articles. After reading the information sent to me by bkcummingham, edvinmass, the IRS letters to The Villages, TV response to the IRS and the few other documents I have been able to find so far, these articles by the Orlando Sentinel are twisting things at best. IMO

For some reason, this is really upsetting to me. I do not think the Morse's or TV is perfect -- nor do I think TV is anything like these other CDDs that we are being compared to. EdVinnMass seems to have such good info and I am sure there are MANY other TVers that also understand the issues which is probably why it appears that many people aren't worried. I don't know "YET", but I don't think that the Orlando Sentinel information is accurate and IMO may even be purposefully misleading (not sure why, but then some people just like to "stir the pot". Given this, I got fed up and sent Ms. Ritchie the following email:

Ms. Ritchie,

My husband and I are going to be new residents of The Villages in October 2011. We are moving from the D.C. area and have both worked for the Federal Government. I am not sure that your current string of articles on The Villages and the IRS/CDD situation accurately present the facts. Your articles also seem to be scaring quite a few current and potential Villages residents unnecessarily. I for one do not like your "soap opera" reporting style.

Do you understand that most of these people are senior citizens who are trying to enjoy the remaining years they have left on this earth and that your articles are causing many of them unwarranted grief and stress. I am not yet a "senior". I am 50. My husband will be 60 in December. He also has cancer. I am sure that many other Villages residents also have illnesses. They do not need for you to add to their worries. If you have honest and accurate information that will help us preserve the lifestyle that we pay for and love, GREAT. If not, please stop causing us harm. How would you like it if someone was continually creating this kind of grief for your parents just so that they could get readers?

I have NO relationship to the Morse family. I am not a Republican � although I am a strong believer in our Country�s capitalist system. I do believe that you can be held personally liable for what you report. I plan to start looking into the "facts" in your articles, and together with other residents of The Villages, who are fed up with this game that you are playing with our community, will hold you responsible for any harm you have caused through your inaccurate and inflammatory reporting that seems to be meant for self-promotion purposes only.

Dang, Could I have your autograph. All kidding aside, I have never seen anything I could agree with more than this post. My problems is I was raised an Iowa Farm boy and went off to 22 years in the Army; their fore, sometimes I just can't say what I feel without ruffing up some feathers. But hear me clear when I say this: If there is anything I can do to make your move more pleasurable, please do not hesitate to contact me. Consider me available for anything you need to make getting settled made easier and I will be happy to help with whatever you need.

[villa2]

creally? Not if you read totv. Unfortunately you need to be a forensic auditor to understand the problem. It has been explained many times but it is something that can't be put into one sentence. I don't think that all of these smart people are having the wool pulled over their eyes. I have never regretted buying in the villages, no matter what.

i think the democratic sentinel doesn't like all the money the morses throw to the republican party. That is my opinion.

bingo!!!

[JimJoe]

I have read the news articles, and the IRS and CDD letters and have tried to get the facts. I want to be informed.
I do not care to read attacks on the contributors from either "side". If they are wrong, please present the facts and show me.
We need to be informed and urge everyone to get this issue RESOLVED.

[Taj44]

I agree with most of what you say, however, you say "we don't know" and then go on to say "this could get very messy, and expensive for the residents". You just as easily could have said in the long run it won't cost residents anything. This becomes the irony of the issue.....We just do not know at this point. So why speculate and alarm?

I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

[jannd228]

I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

not to ask but has anyone asked a tax attorney or former IRS retiree who may live in TV questions, it might be helpful at some point

I am looking at TV and elsewhere now because of the posts I read here

[The Shadow]

JimJoe,

I apologize if what I wrote came across as an �attack�. I was just trying to make the Orlando Sentinel and Ms. Ritchie take responsibility for their reporting. I too want the facts and I believe that news organizations have the responsibility to present the facts accurately and that we as citizens should make sure they do so.

I am just beginning to gather information and before I post details, I want to make sure my facts are accurate, but I will give you one, very clear example. Below is a sentence from the most recent article.

�The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government.�

I have not read in any of the IRS documents that they asked for �a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government.� What I believe she is trying to make reader believe is that TVCDDs or any CDDs for that matter are not �legitimate governments� � which they are per Florida Statute. Florida Statue also gives CDDs the right to issue bonds, including tax exempts bonds.

I will stop here. This is just one example.
�The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government.�

More accurately,
The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again issue tax free bonds.

Or
The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a government qualified to issue tax free bonds.

�masquerade as a legitimate government� That phrase was not used.

[graciegirl]

I have read the news articles, and the IRS and CDD letters and have tried to get the facts. I want to be informed.
I do not care to read attacks on the contributors from either "side". If they are wrong, please present the facts and show me.
We need to be informed and urge everyone to get this issue RESOLVED.

JimJoe.

It isn't us that can resolve it. It is between the IRS and the Morses.

[graciegirl]

I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

We really cannot make that assumption.

[JimJoe]

jmitchell:
I enjoyed your most recent post. I can see your point about the language used in the article. Maybe a better way to have said it would be they want 14 million dollars in back taxes and a promise not to issue tax free bonds.

I am not sure if CDDs are technically "governments". Do residents get to vote on the directors of the two commerical districts that issued the bonds? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

I doubt the State of Florida can authorize the use of FEDERAL tax free bonds unless someone had a private opinion letter from the IRS, which I do not understand why one was not obtained before these bonds were issued. I would think they had a bond attorney look at this before they were issued.

But my point is still this: whether the article used inflamatory language or not, owners and potential owners in TV have a need and a right to accurate information about this issue so they can make rational decisions about investing in TV. Going after the messengers on any issue only detracts from enlightenment. I understand there are times when it is necessary to point out the use of language that may be inaccurate or misleading. I never like it when discussions are reduced to who is stupid or not. I do give the Orlando Sentinel credit for shedding some light on this topic. I just want it resolved asap, and I would like to know why it is taking so long. Any ideas?

I do appreciate your imput on this topic. I would like to know if it is not too personal if any realtor informed you before you bought about the IRS issue, or did you have to ask about it? Thanks. JJ

[graciegirl]

�The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government.�

More accurately,
The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again issue tax free bonds.

Or
The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a government qualified to issue tax free bonds.

�masquerade as a legitimate government� That phrase was not used.

Do you live here Shadow?

[graciegirl]

I hope you all will read EdvinMass post on Lauren Ritchies latest article. He just posted it.

[JimJoe]

We really cannot make that assumption.

If amenities fees were used to pay those attorney fees, it will be the residents that lost the beneficial use of that money.
Where did the money come from to pay attorneys $209,000 so far if it was not from the amenities fees?.. and they have not even started court proceedings.

This is why I say this needs to be resolved. Having it pending unnecessarily hurts the villagers and has the potential to hurt The Villages growth. The longer it goes, the more expensive it gets, win or lose. Who benefits by it not being resolved?

And I thought the IRS offered to settle for a lot less, something like 3 million with a promise to not issue any more tax free bonds... am I right?
If so, who rejected that offer? Did the villagers get to vote on that decision?
This settlement voting issue is also very complicated and goes to the structure of TV, which is at the heart of the IRS claims.

[JimJoe]

not to ask but has anyone asked a tax attorney or former IRS retiree who may live in TV questions, it might be helpful at some point

I am looking at TV and elsewhere now because of the posts I read here

I do not think you will find anything better than TV, but I do think your idea of asking the retired experts in TV is excellent.
Anyone an expert or know one who can give help on this? Please.

[Carol K]

We have been following this IRS information since we plan on moving to TV. I agree that asking someone with knowledge (like a tax attorney) would be helpful rather than a lot of guessing. There must be someone that lives in TV that is an attorney. This matter would not prevent us from moving to TV, but sure would be nice to know the true facts.

[jmitchell]

jmitchell:
I enjoyed your most recent post. I can see your point about the language used in the article. Maybe a better way to have said it would be they want 14 million dollars in back taxes and a promise not to issue tax free bonds.

I am not sure if CDDs are technically "governments". Do residents get to vote on the directors of the two commerical districts that issued the bonds? I don't think so but I could be wrong.

I doubt the State of Florida can authorize the use of FEDERAL tax free bonds unless someone had a private opinion letter from the IRS, which I do not understand why one was not obtained before these bonds were issued. I would think they had a bond attorney look at this before they were issued.

But my point is still this: whether the article used inflamatory language or not, owners and potential owners in TV have a need and a right to accurate information about this issue so they can make rational decisions about investing in TV. Going after the messengers on any issue only detracts from enlightenment. I understand there are times when it is necessary to point out the use of language that may be inaccurate or misleading. I never like it when discussions are reduced to who is stupid or not. I do give the Orlando Sentinel credit for shedding some light on this topic. I just want it resolved asap, and I would like to know why it is taking so long. Any ideas?

I do appreciate your imput on this topic. I would like to know if it is not too personal if any realtor informed you before you bought about the IRS issue, or did you have to ask about it? Thanks. JJ

JimJoe,

Regarding my agent telling us -- no, he did not, but I found TOTV early on and read about it. TOTV is the greatest.

My life experience has been "it is always something". Life is never without challenges. You can say, well I'm not going to move to TV because of the IRS issue, but other communities have other issues. I'm taking my chances. TV has too many positives, the first, and IMO, the greatest, is the PEOPLE, and then the FUN!

[JimJoe]

Do you live here Shadow?

I do not live in TV but I want to. I have been there many times and everyone I know who lives there loves it. Does it matter that I do not live there? I do not think so.

[Russ_Boston]

�masquerade as a legitimate government� That phrase was not used.

Actually it's right here in your (I mean Ms Ritchie's) article: From the Orlando Sentinel:

The agency wanted $16 million in back taxes and a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government.

[jannd228]

We have been following this IRS information since we plan on moving to TV. I agree that asking someone with knowledge (like a tax attorney) would be helpful rather than a lot of guessing. There must be someone that lives in TV that is an attorney. This matter would not prevent us from moving to TV, but sure would be nice to know the true facts.

it never hurts to ASK, retired or maybe someone has a son or daughter currently in the field (or grandson/granddaughter, relative, friend, etc)

I taught technology, some of the posts on this thread and others we would call "trolled" or put their by someone to cause a positive or negative response, I don't live in TV but the bond question needs light shed on it rather than conjecture just an opinion

[jmitchell]

R we residents 'the last to know' what 'facts' are available to us.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-lauren-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,0,5465947.column

http://www.orlandosentinal.com/news/local/lake/os-lk-laurne-ritchie-bond-dispute-irs20100829,05465947.column



Hope this article helps explain the details that the IRS is questioning with regard to the tax exempt status.

http://www.bondbuyer.com/issues/118_104/-304059-1.html

[missypie]

Thank you for being so articulate with your response. I will be waiting to hear what the Reporter responds to your letter. I'm sure she is enjoying all of the attention.

[JimJoe]

JimJoe,

It is my understanding from reading the IRS complaint against TV that CDDs can issue tax exempt bonds but that they must "qualify". There are a number of factors -- use of the money, etc. What the IRS is now saying is that TV was not "qualified" for some of the bonds. It get very weird IMO because the goverment says and I am paraphasing "o.k. if you pay us XX we will go away, but if you don't we are going after you big time and will look at everything". It seem quite an odd stance for a government agency to take. My husband and I both worked for the Department of Homeland Security and my x-husband was and FBI Agent. TV either broke the law or they didn't. It seems almost like a plea bargain in a criminal case to be bargaining like this and from our experience in the federal government -- that means that the government does not have all their ducks in a row. Again, just my opinion!

Regarding my agent telling us -- no, he did not, but I found TOTV early on and read about it. TOTV is the greatest.

My life experience has be "it is always something". Life is never without challenges. You can say, well I'm not going to move to TV because of the IRS issue, but other communities have other issues. I'm taking my chances. TV has too many positives, the first, and from what I have from the greatest is the PEOPLE, and then the FUN!

I was an attorney for 31 years before I retired. Both criminal and civil cases settle all the time. I do not think there is anything unusual about it, and I do not think it means anything about the strength of either side's case. Sometimes it is a matter of cost of litigation, and sometimes it is a matter of not wanting to look like you are beating up on old people, and sometimes if what you really want is for the other party to change it's behavior, you reduce your claim and require the other party to do what you really want ... like in this instance, issuing tax free bonds. Just a guess and I could be wrong.

Can you please tell me why they did not get an IRS private opinion letter before issuing these bonds?

[Pturner]

One thing to keep in mind is that Lauren Ritchie is an opinion columnist, not a news reporter. Like any and all commentors, she expresses her opinions, some of which she supports with facts.

A fact is empiracal and verifiable. An opinion is just someone's belief, often emotional, often based on selective information, often based one the person's interpretation of facts.

Thus, when Ms. Ritchie states that, "The district already has spent more than $209,000 of residents' money so far, nearly all on (attorneys)", she is making a statement of fact as to the amount and source of spending. Although she did not provide the source of this information, the statement itself is verifyable and I personally am inclined to believe it is accurate unless I find out otherwise. (When she states that the money was spent on "high-powered lawyers," she's providing a subjective if probably accurate assessment.)

When she states that the IRS wants, "...a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government," she is stating her interpretation of the facts.

As a commentator, she is entitled to her opinions, assessments and interpretations, just as we are entitled to ours. We should, however, recognize that as a columnist, she is not reporting news per se, but merely giving her commentary.

I agree with JimJoe that Villagers and would-be Villagers should be educated about issues affecting our community. I think a well-rounded education includes understanding the facts, as well as understanding how knowledgeable people on all sides of the issue interpret those facts.

Too often we want to hear the voices of only those with whom we agree. While I do not agree with all of Ms. Ritchie's assessments and conclusions, I feel no need whatsoever to silence her.

[JimJoe]

One thing to keep in mind is that Lauren Ritchie is an opinion columnist, not a news reporter. Like any and all commentors, she expresses her opinions, some of which she supports with facts.

A fact is empiracal and verifiable. An opinion is just someone's belief, often emotional, often based on selective information, often based one the person's interpretation of facts.

Thus, when Ms. Ritchie states that, "The district already has spent more than $209,000 of residents' money so far, nearly all on (attorneys)", she is making a statement of fact as to the amount and source of spending. Although she did not provide the source of this information, the statement itself is verifyable and I personally am inclined to believe it is accurate unless I find out otherwise. (When she states that the money was spent on "high-powered lawyers," she's providing a subjective if probably accurate assessment.

When she states that the IRS wants, "...a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government," she is stating her interpretation of the facts.

As a commentator, she is entitled to her opinions, assessments and interpretations, just as we are entitled to ours. We should, however, recognize that as a columnist, she is not reporting news per se, but merely giving her commentary.

I agree with JimJoe that Villagers and would-be Villagers should be educated about issues affecting our community. I think a well-rounded education includes understanding the facts, as well as understanding how knowledgeable people on all sides of the issue interpret those facts.

Too often we want to hear the voices of only those with whom we agree. While I do not agree with all of Ms. Ritchie's assessments and conclusions, I feel no need whatsoever to silence her.

Very well said with two great points.
1. Ritchie is a columnist.
2. Hear all the facts on all sides of an issue.

[jmitchell]

One thing to keep in mind is that Lauren Ritchie is an opinion columnist, not a news reporter. Like any and all commentors, she expresses her opinions, some of which she supports with facts.

A fact is empiracal and verifiable. An opinion is just someone's belief, often emotional, often based on selective information, often based one the person's interpretation of facts.

Thus, when Ms. Ritchie states that, "The district already has spent more than $209,000 of residents' money so far, nearly all on (attorneys)", she is making a statement of fact as to the amount and source of spending. Although she did not provide the source of this information, the statement itself is verifyable and I personally am inclined to believe it is accurate unless I find out otherwise. (When she states that the money was spent on "high-powered lawyers," she's providing a subjective if probably accurate assessment.

When she states that the IRS wants, "...a promise by community development districts never again to masquerade as a legitimate government," she is stating her interpretation of the facts.

As a commentator, she is entitled to her opinions, assessments and interpretations, just as we are entitled to ours. We should, however, recognize that as a columnist, she is not reporting news per se, but merely giving her commentary.

I agree with JimJoe that Villagers and would-be Villagers should be educated about issues affecting our community. I think a well-rounded education includes understanding the facts, as well as understanding how knowledgeable people on all sides of the issue interpret those facts.

Too often we want to hear the voices of only those with whom we agree. While I do not agree with all of Ms. Ritchie's assessments and conclusions, I feel no need whatsoever to silence her.

Pturner,

Ohhh... I didn't catch that little "Commentary" above her articles! I agree with you that these types of columnists are entitled to their opinions. Online it is hard to tell that you are reading such an article, especically when someone posts them on TOTV. When reading a newspaper it is clear when you are reading the Op Eds - a little harder in this context, but THANK YOU for pointing it out. I hope everyone reads your post and does not take Ms. Ritchies "opinions" for "fact". As I am sure you have read, her opinions (articles) have and are affecting peoples decision to move to TV and I think that is a shame.

[l2ridehd]

You just need to do the math. Lets say the IRS gets there 16 million in fines. And they have to stop selling these as tax free bonds. I doubt anyone gets 100% of what they want, but assume worst case and they do. So the difference between tax free and taxable bonds right now is very small. So the bond holders get hurt a little bit and future bonds for the rest of the development may not be so attractive. But take the 16 million and assess every home in TV, again worst case. Each home would owe a little less then $300. Probably have to paid over 2 years, so an added assessment of an awful $15 a month with interest for 2 years. My guess would be that will never happen, but even the maximum fine having to paid by the residents, while not great, probably wont change what you have for dinner tonight.

[JimJoe]

You just need to do the math. Lets say the IRS gets there 16 million in fines. And they have to stop selling these as tax free bonds. I doubt anyone gets 100% of what they want, but assume worst case and they do. So the difference between tax free and taxable bonds right now is very small. So the bond holders get hurt a little bit and future bonds for the rest of the development may not be so attractive. But take the 16 million and assess every home in TV, again worst case. Each home would owe a little less then $300. Probably have to paid over 2 years, so an added assessment of an awful $15 a month with interest for 2 years. My guess would be that will never happen, but even the maximum fine having to paid by the residents, while not great, probably wont change what you have for dinner tonight.

Good points! but as usual I have questions.
1. Does your approach account for the possibility the IRS will require TV to redeem the bonds and sell new ones at current rates? I think the current bond holders will want a lot to cover their lost profit with the interest rate on the sold bonds probably being a lot higher than the interest rate they would get on current taxable bonds. The bond holders will not want to give up that profit for nothing. If you idea does, please explain. This is one of the issues that I do not understand, how the bonds would be remedied if they are not tax free. How does the IRS calculate how much money they have lost thus far? Redo the tax returns of the people that bought the bonds and figure out what taxes they avoided and then assess that to the bond sellers? Or do they have a statutory fine that based on the value of the bonds.... that would be my guess.
2. If they were forced to redeem the bonds, can the commercial districts sell taxable bonds in this current market with bond interest so low and real estate in so much trouble?
3. Your solution is assess homeowners in TV but is it possible to assess all of the homeowners in TV for this problem? Who ever issued the bonds would probably have to pay, and what would be the source of their revenue? If it Amenities fees, they are capped by the cola which was a point earlier that amenities COULD suffer SOMEWHAT.
4. Was that 16 million dollar claim for all bonds, or just the ones they originally looked at? As I remember, when there was no settlement, the IRS said they were going to look at all of the bonds.

Your point is very good which is this should not be that big of a problem, and my point is you are right so why can they not get is resolved NOW, instead of leaving it hang, and hurting TV. JJ

[Xavier]

One thing to keep in mind is that Lauren Ritchie is an opinion columnist, not a news reporter. Like any and all commentors, she expresses her opinions, some of which she supports with facts.....

...sort of like Glenn Beck? Now I'm beginning to understand more better! (yeah, I did that on purpose) It makes me even more skeptical of Ms. Ritchie's writings and their purpose - from whence she cometh. (yeah, I did it again)

X

[Taj44]

Originally Posted by Taj44
I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

GracieGirl: We really cannot make that assumption.

If amenities fees were used to pay those attorney fees, it will be the residents that lost the beneficial use of that money.
Where did the money come from to pay attorneys $209,000 so far if it was not from the amenities fees?.. and they have not even started court proceedings.

This is why I say this needs to be resolved. Having it pending unnecessarily hurts the villagers and has the potential to hurt The Villages growth. The longer it goes, the more expensive it gets, win or lose. Who benefits by it not being resolved?

And I thought the IRS offered to settle for a lot less, something like 3 million with a promise to not issue any more tax free bonds... am I right?
If so, who rejected that offer? Did the villagers get to vote on that decision?
This settlement voting issue is also very complicated and goes to the structure of TV, which is at the heart of the IRS claims.

Thanks JimJoe. That's exactly the point. Gracie, the $209,000 is not an assumption. Ms. Ritchie didn't conjure it up from thin air - it is a verifiable fact. As JimJoe said, the longer this whole business goes on, the more expensive it gets. What a stupid waste of money, IMHO.

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Taj44
I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

GracieGirl: We really cannot make that assumption.



Thanks JimJoe. That's exactly the point. Gracie, the $209,000 is not an assumption. Ms. Ritchie didn't conjure it up from thin air - it is a verifiable fact. As JimJoe said, the longer this whole business goes on, the more expensive it gets. What a stupid waste of money, IMHO.

Don't remember any early settlement?
Waste of money......blame the IRS>
Everyone is making too many assumptions!

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Taj44
I could have said that in the long run it won't cost the residents anything, except I don't believe that to be the case. Its already cost the residents $209,000!

GracieGirl: We really cannot make that assumption.



Thanks JimJoe. That's exactly the point. Gracie, the $209,000 is not an assumption. Ms. Ritchie didn't conjure it up from thin air - it is a verifiable fact. As JimJoe said, the longer this whole business goes on, the more expensive it gets. What a stupid waste of money, IMHO.

I am sorry, I was not clear. We cannot make the assumption that the Morses are paying the attorney fees with our amenity money. I would think they have money other than that.

[JimJoe]

I am sorry, I was not clear. We cannot make the assumption that the Morses are paying the attorney fees with our amenity money. I would think they have money other than that.

The IRS problem is not with the Morses. It is with the cdds that sold the bonds. I think the villagers should know where the money is coming from to pay the costs of litigation, especially if it is coming from them. Maybe there is a source other than the amenity fees. That would be great news.

[Taj44]

The IRS problem is not with the Morses. It is with the cdds that sold the bonds. I think the villagers should know where the money is coming from to pay the costs of litigation, especially if it is coming from them. Maybe there is a source other than the amenity fees. That would be great news.

The IRS battle is with the CDD's. According to the CDD website, the CDD's are funded by our amentity fees and annual assessments. The CDD has hired legal representation to fight the IRS. It seems pretty clear to me who is paying for this legal battle.

[villages07]

The CDDs are a form of government and, as such, are required to publicly disclose details of their plans and actions.

There is a tremendous amount of information on the www.districtgov.org (http://www.districtgov.org) website (you may have to copy/paste this link into your browser).

Go to this site, on the main menu line, click on "Your District" and then from the list of choices click on either Village Center or Sumter to get info on the 2 commercial/central districts.

These central CDDs are the ones that manage the amenity fees. On the main page for each of the central CDDs is a link to Proposed FY10-11 budget. Click on this link and it'll bring up a large pdf file with detailed revenue and expense items.

For legal expenses, Village central CDD .... 08/09 actual expenses were $127K; 09/10 budgeted was 80K - spent thru first 7 months of this fiscal year - 36K; proposed budget for FY10-11 is $150K.

For legal expenses, Sumter central CDD .... 08/09 actual expenses were $20K; 09/10 budgeted was 80K - spent thru first 7 months of this fiscal year - 77K; proposed budget for FY10-11 is $100K.

These are basically government entities and they do face various legal issues during the course of a year. It appears as though they have budgeted up to $250K between them for legal expenses into next year. I don't know where Ms Ritchie got that $209K was spent on the IRS issue so far. That figure doesn't match what is published by the CDDs.

Do your research, attend the open meetings each of these two central districts (and your own numbered district) hold, and base your opinions on the facts. I know I still don't fully understand the inter-workings between the two central CDDs and probably lots of other stuff, too.

[NJblue]

Don't remember any early settlement?
Waste of money......blame the IRS>
Everyone is making too many assumptions!

Precisely. Why is it that we just assume that something was done that is wrong just because the IRS claims it to be so? We need to remember that it is we the residents who are the beneficiaries of the current bond arrangement. Are we just supposed to roll over and accept an IRS ruling in an area that is anything but clear?

[graciegirl]

More bad stuff for people who are considering moving here to read.

[RichieB]

More bad stuff for people who are considering moving here to read.

You've got that right ! :sad:

[jblum315]

Be suspicious of anything in the Sentinel about TV. They bash TV every chance they get.

[janmcn]

More bad stuff for people who are considering moving here to read.

Why do you want to rehash this? Didn't we have enough bad news over the week-end with the dog being eaten alive, the stinky smell at Hernandino, the electric generator four feet from the lanai and golf carts capsizing over narrow bridges? I can't take anymore.

[The Village Girl]

Why do you want to rehash this? Didn't we have enough bad news over the week-end with the dog being eaten alive, the stinky smell at Hernandino, the electric generator four feet from the lanai and golf carts capsizing over narrow bridges? I can't take anymore.

I have an answer for you. Don't read what you don't like.

Try to understand that this is a "forum" for everyone. If someone wants to bring up a post for whatever reason, that is their choice. New members may not have read it. Sometimes new members bring them back up because it's new to them.

So, if you don't want to read something, please don't. But, don't try to censor the forum because it's a subject that "you" don't like.

This has been a public service announcement.

Your welcome! :)

[eweissenbach]

I have an answer for you. Don't read what you don't like.

Try to understand that this is a "forum" for everyone. If someone wants to bring up a post for whatever reason, that is their choice. New members may not have read it. Sometimes new members bring them back up because it's new to them.

So, if you don't want to read something, please don't. But, don't try to censor the forum because it's a subject that "you" don't like.

This has been a public service announcement.

Your welcome! :)

Ummmm I beleive jnmcan had tongue in cheek :icon_wink:

[The Village Girl]

Ummmm I beleive jnmcan had tongue in cheek :icon_wink:

I may be a little touchy on the "closing down of threads" and "why are we talking about this" comments. :ohdear:

So, let me go on to say, (saving face) that for anyone except jnmcan who wants to shut down a thread or complain about a thread, this goes for them.

Carry on. Nothing going on here. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Oh, and jnmcan, so sorry.