Things Not To Plant in your yard.

[bobdeb]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

[John_W]

Oak Trees, I bought a new home in Pinellas Park Florida in 1976, that's between Clearwater and St. Pete. Since it was new, the developer had cleared out all the trees as so many do. So I left one year later in '77 there only shrubs in the front yard.

A couple of years ago I googled the address and on google maps street view the front had the biggest oak tree you can fit. I just took a screen shot of the home. This tree did not exist in 1977. A little extra info, I paid $35,500 for the home new and it sold a couple of years ago for $212K, and it was tiny, only 1200 sf, it was tan with dark brown Bahama Shutters over the front two windows.

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152327721_1869803583184165_5447527174296892646_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sT7hN9tPcwoAX-7Jwuk&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=9ce8eeb8f91ecbbe2e98b94f0e398f17&oe=6055B696

[Fredman]

When I was looking for a home I eliminated every house with a live oak

[Malsua]

When I was looking for a home I eliminated every house with a live oak

My mother's first home in TV(on Gonzales in Mira Mesa) had a Live Oak. We never heard the end of it. She was out there sweeping every day.

My sister bought her a new house, got mom moved into it. Guess what we never heard the end of then? How much she loved that other house. lol

[Two Bills]

Do not plant husband/wife in garden.
Police these days have dogs trained to sniff out cadavers!

[Bjeanj]

We bought a home that has a magnolia and queen palm. The OP is correct on both his points about these trees. The magnolia dumps its huge leaves twice a year and makes a lot of work (for my husband). The seed pods from the queen palm can kill someone, they’re so heavy, and woe to anyone who lets those pods open up to dump the seeds!

Also, if you’re going to plant Mexican petunias, make sure you plant them in a container. These plants are so invasive it took me three years and a lot of roundup to get rid of them.

We also inherited a growth of bamboo. We cut it all down and dumped roundup on all of it, and now we are dealing with a thatch of interwoven roots that are impossible to dig out, and are slowly breaking off the base of each shoot as it rots. Still don’t know what we’re going to do with the root thatch yet. Set it on fire? Don’t know yet.

We are careful with the roundup, but it definitely has its uses.

[Rosebud2020]

Live oaks are probably my most favorite tree. However, they grow a minimum of 50" tall and 50' wide, and the postage-size lots in TV are not large enough to accommodate them. They will cause a problem as they mature.

Don't worry about leaves from trees ruining your grass. Invest in a blower and you will be happy. You probably have a lawn guy doing your property, so the leaves aren't an issue for you, anyway.

Palm trees??? Rats live in their canopy. Need I say more?

There are many varieties of Magnolias that can be planted here because of their smaller size. Their leaves are easy to simply pick up when they shed.

Sorry, but citrus trees are easy. They don't require a lot of water and only need to be fertilized a couple of times a year. Your neighbors will thank you for what they produce.

[Pricey]

One word: Bougainvilleas.
They have thorns, invade everything, and are impossible to remove unless they're dug up.
Word has it that the crown of thorns placed on the brow of Jesus Christ was the bougainvillea. I believe it.

[bobdeb]

Bougainvillea plants are quite beautiful, at a distance. I meant to add them to my original list.

The thorns on these plants are hard to imagine. I agree with not planting in a small yard.

[Polar Bear]

I love our oak tree. (Might be Laurel Oak.) And it’s far enough from our house it’s no threat. Yep, a little leaf raking or blowing for a short time each year. But it’s beautiful and well worth it. And it provides shade and filtering of direct sunlight for our west facing house. We sit on our porch and watch the sunsets regularly. Beautiful. :)

[graciegirl]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

I agree with every one. Good advice.

[Villageswimmer]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.


You nailed it. And if anyone says their magnolia is “dwarf,” we’re talking 40 feet. I think TV has stopped planting them (and others) in residential yards. Right plant, right place.

Like an up thread poster, I would not buy a home with a live oak.

[Topspinmo]

One word: Bougainvilleas.
They have thorns, invade everything, and are impossible to remove unless they're dug up.
Word has it that the crown of thorns placed on the brow of Jesus Christ was the bougainvillea. I believe it.


I agree, I’ve got two. Every time I trim them I pull out bloodily stub of hand along with scratched up arms.

[Bjeanj]

I agree, I’ve got two. Every time I trim them I pull out bloodily stub of hand along with scratched up arms.

Yep.

[tsmall22204]

It appears your glass is half empty.

[ckbenjamin]

Where were you 8 1/2 years ago? I wish I'd never planted palms. What a mess! Can't wait till they are dead and gone but then I might be before they are.

[SeanAndrews]

Thank you for all the great advice! So, what trees WOULD you recommend? Thanks!

[JerseyGurl]

Hi all, new to FL and TV. So what would you suggest planting in a small area for privacy? The landscaper suggested 2 Bougainville. After reading your comments I told him definitely not. Thank you.

[Bellavita]

You just don’t like or appreciate the Beaty and air they provide the sHade from the relentless sun[how sad a yard without a tree


QUOTE=bobdeb;1904808]Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.[/QUOTE]

[Donaz1]

I had two queen palms removed just recently for just the reasons you stated. In addition, an irrigation line near the tree had a large leak. I had to use a sawzall to get to the line due to all of the roots from the queen palm. One question - Is there any tree that would be appropriate?

[JimJohnson]

Hemp

[Diane F]

We have 3 Sylvesters, a Ribbon palm, and several Sugar palms too around are pool, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. After all we do live in Florida. To not have them would be like not having firs and pine trees in the mountains! Yes there upkeep is a hassle, but if you like them and can afford the upkeep, plant them!

[matandch]

Depends on the individual. I like trees and all they do for the environment. Plus I’m still in pretty good health and am not averse to doing work. Yard work is good exercise that in the long run might contribute to a longer life.

[coconutmama]

Oak Trees, I bought a new home in Pinellas Park Florida in 1976, that's between Clearwater and St. Pete. Since it was new, the developer had cleared out all the trees as so many do. So I left one year later in '77 there only shrubs in the front yard.

A couple of years ago I googled the address and on google maps street view the front had the biggest oak tree you can fit. I just took a screen shot of the home. This tree did not exist in 1977. A little extra info, I paid $35,500 for the home new and it sold a couple of years ago for $212K, and it was tiny, only 1200 sf, it was tan with dark brown Bahama Shutters over the front two windows.

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152327721_1869803583184165_5447527174296892646_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sT7hN9tPcwoAX-7Jwuk&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=9ce8eeb8f91ecbbe2e98b94f0e398f17&oe=6055B696

Thanks for the photo. Folks don’t seem to realize how fast trees grow here, including “slow” growth species.

We have a live oak on the property behind us. Although we cut off any limbs coming over the fence to our side, a day will come when we can no longer reach it. The squirrels that it attracts climb our birdcage, are destructive, and like to tease the dog. The tree has grown quite a bit in the 5 years since we moved into this house.

Wish I knew then what I know now!

[Cheese]

Agave Cactus is another one that should be added to your list. They multiply, get big and some have sharp points. Also, if they should flower they die and a mess to get rid of.

[airdale2]

Black snakes are your friend and harmless, let them be.

[coconutmama]

I agree, I’ve got two. Every time I trim them I pull out bloodily stub of hand along with scratched up arms.

Lowe’s & other stores sell palm gloves for pruning. They are heavy gauge & long sleeved. I use them while working with my palm trees & this plant

[bilcon]

I went back and looked at my first villa on the golf course in Mallory and could not believe the size of the magnolia that was planted there when I bought it. It would be 16 years old now and it must be 15 feet above the villa fence. No thank u. They are on the golf course I live on, but 50 feet away and are great to look out.

[quietpine]

There is a live oak tree behind our house. It’s on TV property but is close enough to shed its leaves on our yard. That happens once a year. It’s a nuisance for about a month but our lawn service removes them when they mow. But the majestic tree is beautiful to look at from the lanai, it provides shade in the back yard, blocks the sun and during storms becomes a wind screen. So yes, the leaves are a bother but the tree gives more than it takes and that is a good measure.

[La lamy]

Oak Trees, I bought a new home in Pinellas Park Florida in 1976, that's between Clearwater and St. Pete. Since it was new, the developer had cleared out all the trees as so many do. So I left one year later in '77 there only shrubs in the front yard.

A couple of years ago I googled the address and on google maps street view the front had the biggest oak tree you can fit. I just took a screen shot of the home. This tree did not exist in 1977. A little extra info, I paid $35,500 for the home new and it sold a couple of years ago for $212K, and it was tiny, only 1200 sf, it was tan with dark brown Bahama Shutters over the front two windows.

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152327721_1869803583184165_5447527174296892646_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sT7hN9tPcwoAX-7Jwuk&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=9ce8eeb8f91ecbbe2e98b94f0e398f17&oe=6055B696

:1rotfl: :1rotfl: :1rotfl: That tree IS ENORMOUS!!!!

[davem4616]

Add "Boston Fern" to the list

after a tour of the canals over in Mt Dora and seeing all the beautiful Boston Ferns along the banks we waited and waited for Home Depot to have them....bought three one quart plants and planted them in the front beds along the house

well in six months they were approaching four feet across....the bark mulch needed to be refurbished and I had a contractor coming to do that, but I figured I'd knock the ferns back with a 'weed wacker' beforehand

trimmed two successfully, when I went to the third for some reason I paused and decided to go at it from the side...within moments
an unseen 5+ foot gator that had been laying under the fern came scooting out across the front walk way (this is within 6 feet of our front door).....

he must have come from two streets over where there's a preserve....scared the living you know what out of me that something that big was hiding in our front bed (my wife is behind me yelling 'pocketbook, pocketbook, I hosie, pocketbook) we laugh about it now, but not at the time

When the landscaper came he told me that gators love to rest in Boston ferns....yes I had him take them out

[CFrance]

One word: Bougainvilleas.
They have thorns, invade everything, and are impossible to remove unless they're dug up.
Word has it that the crown of thorns placed on the brow of Jesus Christ was the bougainvillea. I believe it.
Ditto about bougainvilleas. The flowers fall/blow all over the place, the bush grows like a weed and is hard to prune because of the thorns. In fact, in California they are considered to be weeds, and they grow wild on the sides of the freeways.


Magnolias--they should be put in parks where they can grow into beautiful big trees. The little ones are ugly in shape. The flowers turn brown after one day, and you will be picking up leaves (of yours, and the neighbors' across the street or next to you) forever.


Depending on the prevailing wind, it may not be a problem; it may be a neighbors' problem. Our garage gets full of them from the tree across the street.

[La lamy]

Agreed about the magnolia trees. Their roots busted through the irrigation system's pipes of my villa and created a nice little flood around the house for days until I figured out the new hissing sound wasn't coming from my neighbours. Who knows what might be busted under the house too!

[Guitarman1951]

I have one king Sylvester, one Robollini and 6 queen palms. The Sylvester has surpassed my ability trim off the never ending dying limbs that have thorns 4 to 6 inches long. The Robollini is a much smaller palm but it's limbs have very sharp 3" thorns. It's limbs are constantly dying and need cutting. The queen palms are starting to become an ongoing problem as well with those huge seed pods and limbs occasionally needing cutting. My one live oak was planted by the developers only about 8 feet from the patio of a neighbor behind me. I have to have it trimmed 2 to 3 times a year to preclude encroachment over my neighbor's patio. Since it is a live oak, I'm not allowed to cut it down and it is a significant liability during storms. I am spending around a $1,000+ a years to maintain these nuisance trees. I wish the developer would have included some landscaping advice like yours in that big thick worthless binder they gave us called "How to be a Villager".

[davephan]

If I had oak trees, especially close to the house, I would try to have them cut down, and replaced by palm trees. There’s no shortage of oak trees, and the world will not miss an oak tree. The oak trees also rot from the inside out. So the oak trees could be weak if too much of the inside is rotted. I’d want palm trees because this is Florida, not a snow belt state!

Some people also avoid plants that deer like to eat. If you have trouble with the deer attacking your plants, there’s a solution that I tried and found works. There’s a product called “Deer Scram!” that actually works! You apply the granular product on the ground near the plants you want to protect. The deer hate the smell of the “Deer Scram!” and avoid the area. After the granular product is sprinkled on the ground, humans can’t smell it. You have to reapply the product about every two weeks. It’s sold on Amazon in 5 gallon buckets for about $75. It comes in much smaller sizes, if you want to test the product on your garden. A 5 gallon bucket of “Deer Scram” will probably last for several months. After about a month using the “Deer Scram!” product, the groups of many deer still avoid our property, and eat the neighbors plants instead of our plants.

[Ashimp]

Robellini Pygmy Date Palm isn't so bad. Has the thorns and berries, but is short and easy to trim.

[JMintzer]

Do not plant husband/wife in garden.
Police these days have dogs trained to sniff out cadavers!

If you do, be sure to cover them with a "protected" species of flower...

The Police can't dig that up! :police: ;)

[rmd2]

My neighbor has a live oak and those pesky leaves even find their way inside MY garage. They are almost impossible to sweep away. They way they cling to the cement floor is amazing and not in a good way. I don't know why we don't have other types of trees here. Is it the weather or the price or what?

[ron32162]

Bougainvillea's can be dangerous 1 thorn out of 1 million contain a bacteria that causes a flesh eating sore. After spending 8 days in the hospital on 3 different types of antibiotics on a drip 16 hours a day. I was ok but It took someone from the CDC after 3 days to figure out why none of the antibiotics were working. That one little thorn stick in my ankle had now grown to half of my ankle being eaten and local Doctors in the Hospital in Orlando did mention amputation if they could not figure it out. The cdc doctor said 2 or 3 cases in Florida of this a year usually in Nursery workers. Just a scar now but I did have the Bougainvillea taken out.

[DAVES]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

The point is read before you buy. Most any plant will have pluses and minuses. The catch all line is the right plant in the right place. We are all guilty. You go to the garden center or the box store and they all look great in the pot ready to be sold to you.

Mistakes? I am growing blueberries. Our soil ph is 7-8 and they need 4.5-5. For success you will need to grow them in pots-really big pots. Read that as heavy.
Truth they produce tons of fruit. The birds? I figure they are welcome to say 10%
First couple of years they took half. A sign that if they want to take more than 10% they should pay part of the expense. Seems they can't read. A few years they did leave me 10%. Now it is a race and they are either getting fast or I am getting slower.

I am an ex-northerner. At least up north the birds wait for the blueberries to ripen before stealing them. Up north the birds always left me more than enough. Florida birds have no class. They will eat them green and do not care to leave me any for my labor.

[bobdeb]

First, I use an incredible deer repellent up north that is a wonderful fertilizer and is inexpensive to purchase. Forget any deer repellent products. They're a rip off. Get an inexpensive 32 lb bag of Milorganite at ACE or wherever you shop! It's a granular fertilizer and easy to spread. Like feeding chickens. Won't burn your plants or lawn. Deer hate it and it lasts! And I live on an island up north with no hunting so there are plenty of hungry deer around. You're welcome...

Secondly, dont plant violets! They will cast spores or seeds, or whatever, and your yard will be full of them, everywhere!

[davephan]

First, I use an incredible deer repellent up north that is a wonderful fertilizer and is inexpensive to purchase. Forget any deer repellent products. They're a rip off. Get an inexpensive 32 lb bag of Milorganite at ACE or wherever you shop! It's a granular fertilizer and easy to spread. Like feeding chickens. Won't burn your plants or lawn. Deer hate it and it lasts! And I live on an island up north with no hunting so there are plenty of hungry deer around. You're welcome...

Secondly, dont plant violets! They will cast spores or seeds, or whatever, and your yard will be full of them, everywhere!

The “Deer Scram!” deer repellent actually works! There’s packs of 2 to 14 deer that roam the area, and they used to visit our property frequently. They now avoid getting too close to our property!

I’ll check out your Milorganite suggestion for extra protection from the deer.

[DAVES]

My neighbor has a live oak and those pesky leaves even find their way inside MY garage. They are almost impossible to sweep away. They way they cling to the cement floor is amazing and not in a good way. I don't know why we don't have other types of trees here. Is it the weather or the price or what?

Other types of trees? I recall going to one of the cooperative extension lectures and the speaker asked how many of you are northerners. After a show of hands the next line was forget everything you knew about gardening. You can work with or against nature.
If, you choose the second one you will sooner or later lose.

As to oak leaves, first of all I do not have an oak tree. Instead of oak leaves I get to pick up, palm fronds. An easy solution to leaves in your garage, a shop vac. Those blowers the gardeners use are just blowing problems onto the next person's property. If, they are still made, I had a blower that would convert to a vacuum and had a cloth collection bag. I left it behind when we moved.

[Marie Lynn]

Thank you for that info.

[tophcfa]

Thank you for all the great advice! So, what trees WOULD you recommend? Thanks!

We jumped through hoops to get ARC approval to take down the mess making Magnolia that came with our house and replaced it with an East Palatka Holly. The EPH is easy to trim and keep in control and does not make a mess. It is also on the ARC’s list of qualified shade trees.

[willbush]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.
As a person (with the help of my lovely wife) who does his own landscaping, you are spot on with your recommendations; one note, if you have a live oak that is I believe 4inches or less in diameter you can remove it without permission; also some have requested removal that was granted. Those items you mentioned require a lot of extra work; our yard is filled with easy to maintain bushes requiring little maintenance; PS we get a lot of comments on how nice our yard looks

[Art cov]

This thread has been informative and entertaining! I love plants and trees, however after suffering through storms (in other areas of the country) I don’t want any trees in close range of my home. I enjoy seeing them, as I cruise around. Some are so beautiful! Others can take the risk, clean them, deal with rodents and bugs while I enjoy them from a distance.

[The Mountaineer]

Sorry, but not having any of those trees around would be leaving great beauties of nature out of my life. But to each his own, of course.

[JoeinFL]

Do not plant husband/wife in garden.
Police these days have dogs trained to sniff out cadavers!

I guess I need to get out my shovel again. 😂

[Charlesp]

Actually it was Euphorbia milii, the crown of thorns, Christ plant, or Christ thorn that was placed on Jesus Head...

[Bwolf1]

Oak Trees, I bought a new home in Pinellas Park Florida in 1976, that's between Clearwater and St. Pete. Since it was new, the developer had cleared out all the trees as so many do. So I left one year later in '77 there only shrubs in the front yard.

A couple of years ago I googled the address and on google maps street view the front had the biggest oak tree you can fit. I just took a screen shot of the home. This tree did not exist in 1977. A little extra info, I paid $35,500 for the home new and it sold a couple of years ago for $212K, and it was tiny, only 1200 sf, it was tan with dark brown Bahama Shutters over the front two windows.

https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/152327721_1869803583184165_5447527174296892646_o.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=sT7hN9tPcwoAX-7Jwuk&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=9ce8eeb8f91ecbbe2e98b94f0e398f17&oe=6055B696

I bought a house in LA in 1975 for $65,000. Today on Zillow it’s est. value is $1,250,000. I sold it in 1978 for $211,000 and all I added was a pool and TLC.

[OhioBuckeye]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

BOBDEB: I totally agree with your expertise. This is about all the Landscapers want to sell you because I think they know you’ll have to call a lawn maintenance crew to maintain these trees.

[toeser]

We have a home surrounded by oaks. There are a couple of pluses. One is being outside in your yard without being fried. Two is the lowest air conditioning bill I have ever had at any other home.

[MandoMan]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

So what is left? Grass and rocks? Is there any tree you recommend! Crepe Myrtle is beautiful, but it can be messy, too. There are neighbors down the street from me who have papaya trees. Those are interesting, but I don’t know if they ever ripen. There are live oaks and pines right behind my property, on the golf course. I love them. Pruning? Raking? Blowing? Weeds? Fertilizing? Mowing? That’s what the yard guys do. I’m retired.

[emb2458]

You are so on point. My neighbor has an oak that was planted by the builder that makes a lot of work for me. My drive way is a mess all the time. If you can take it down when it is small, do it.

[NancyLillian]

Thank you for your information on what NOT to plant.....how about some suggestions for good things TO plant?

[John_W]

Here's what landscaping can do for property. This is the home I sold in 2011 in the Baltimore suburbs to move to TV. I bought the home new in '98 and over the 13 years I bought some shrubs every spring when I bought new bags of mulch, and did all the landscaping myself. The tree in the middle was the only thing I saved from the original builder's landscaping.

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67213569_1347007352130460_2385089918943625216_o.jp g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=nIrsE0Z7RKoAX9zWB4C&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=7a3388bffd3595c4ebc926ba416f38a8&oe=60576354

Since I sold the home about ten years ago, it has been resold three times. The most recent seller posted this photo on zillow. They basically removed everything but the tree.

https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/7adc27f07107a65f4d1787cba82b0d08-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.webp

[E Cascade]

Too many of ditto complaints......so what works?

Small pineapple bush, aloe, geraniums, dichondra instead of grass, juniper, pansies, roses, impatience, ......any others that you've found?

[Bjeanj]

One mistake (of many) that I made up north was buying what I thought were supposedly small Japanese bushes for close to the house. Turns out someone had replaced the plastic plant sticks with the incorrect description, and I ended up with willow trees. SUCH a mistake so close to the house!

[stebooo]

Excluding the oak, I have all of these trees in my
immediate neighbors yards. The large magnolia especially is really aggrevating . The leaves when falling accumulate and the wind blows them all over to neighbor's yard. We all get to share in the cleanup.

[Dgodin]

When our house was built, the landscaper installed 2 oak trees. In PA our house had a 40ft oak out front. Leaves galore.
When the landscaper came to do the irrigation system orientation I asked if he could just take them out. He replied that he was required to plant the 2 trees per some rule. But he did tell me the trees could be removed as the trunks were under 4in diameter. And that is just what we did. I have a nice flag pole where the front yard tree used to be.

[Rosebud2020]

One word: Bougainvilleas.
They have thorns, invade everything, and are impossible to remove unless they're dug up.
Word has it that the crown of thorns placed on the brow of Jesus Christ was the bougainvillea. I believe it.

Bougainvilleas do not invade everything!
Yes, they have thorns, and as long as you know that (you know that now!), they need to be planted responsibly, meaning in the proper place. They are beautiful, thrive on neglect (!), and are easily pruned back, if necessary.

The Crown of Thorns is a completely different plant from Bougainvilleas and the Bougainvillea was not the plant adorning the head of Jesus.

[Rosebud2020]

You nailed it. And if anyone says their magnolia is “dwarf,” we’re talking 40 feet. I think TV has stopped planting them (and others) in residential yards. Right plant, right place.

Like an up thread poster, I would not buy a home with a live oak.

If someone desires a "dwarf" Magnoia, there are a few varieties. There is such a thing!

However, the caveat is that you purchase one from a reliable source, i.e. a garden center or a landscaper who is reliable and who knows what he/she is doing.

[Maryland Girl]

Petticoat palm trees. TV planted a line of them along the wall outside our property line and after every heavy rain or storm, our yard is full of their debris. I resent having to clean up after these trees that TV planted when they built the community. Some landscaper somewhere made this decision I am sure. They are ugly, too.

[Villagevip]

Agave Cactus is another one that should be added to your list. They multiply, get big and some have sharp points. Also, if they should flower they die and a mess to get rid of.

I wish, I read this post a three years ago...So true, finally had to rip it out, and the little baby ones still pop up in the lawn...

[dadoiron]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

Must have dwarf ones only 3-4 feet tall and never enough limes or lemons for the wife. Easy to grow and very forgiving.

[Rosebud2020]

Petticoat palm trees. TV planted a line of them along the wall outside our property line and after every heavy rain or storm, our yard is full of their debris. I resent having to clean up after these trees that TV planted when they built the community. Some landscaper somewhere made this decision I am sure. They are ugly, too.

I will assume you are speaking about Washingtonia Palms and what you have called a "petticoat" is called a skirt. I cannot imagine that your yard is "full of their debris" because they shed very infrequently (perhaps only one or two fronds) in high winds and that is why they have a skirt.
,
You will find Washingtonia Palms all over Florida and in California, interestingly, a variety of the Washingtonia Palm is their state palm!

I have a feeling those palms were there before you. If you resent having to pick up the fronds -- don't! Let your yard man pick them up..

[Maryland Girl]

I will assume you are speaking about Washingtonia Palms and what you have called a "petticoat" is called a skirt. I cannot imagine that your yard is "full of their debris" because they shed very infrequently (perhaps only one or two fronds) in high winds and that is why they have a skirt.
,
You will find Washingtonia Palms all over Florida and in California, interestingly, a variety of the Washingtonia Palm is their state palm!

I have a feeling those palms were there before you. If you resent having to pick up the fronds -- don't! Let your yard man pick them up..

You are so wrong so let me correct you. We bought our home NEW and TV planted the PETTICOAT palms when they built our house and community. We have watched these trees grow from small trees to very tall trees of about 35 ft. The squirrels love to jump from the wall into the trees and then chase each other jumping from one tree to another. I assure you, we are not imagining the long palm fronds and other debris that we pick up after heavy winds and/or storms. I DO resent, which is my prerogative, having to clean up this mess from trees not on our property. I don't have a 'yard man' but would be happy to have you come over. May I suggest you PM your name and phone number so, after the next storm, I can call you so you can come over and clean up. I'll leave the gate open. Thanking you in advance for knowing more about my situation than my husband or I do.

PS TV landscape workers told us that they are called PETTICOAT palms so if you don't want them called that, perhaps you should contact TV and register your complaint.

[Maryland Girl]

Here's what landscaping can do for property. This is the home I sold in 2011 in the Baltimore suburbs to move to TV. I bought the home new in '98 and over the 13 years I bought some shrubs every spring when I bought new bags of mulch, and did all the landscaping myself. The tree in the middle was the only thing I saved from the original builder's landscaping.

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67213569_1347007352130460_2385089918943625216_o.jp g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=nIrsE0Z7RKoAX9zWB4C&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=7a3388bffd3595c4ebc926ba416f38a8&oe=60576354

Since I sold the home about ten years ago, it has been resold three times. The most recent seller posted this photo on zillow. They basically removed everything but the tree.

https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/7adc27f07107a65f4d1787cba82b0d08-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.webp

John, are you by any chance from Harford County? We also moved here in 2011 and I remember seeing posts by you saying you were from Harford County. We still have family there. The past ten years (almost for us) have gone by so quickly.

[Villageswimmer]

You are so wrong so let me correct you. We bought our home NEW and TV planted the PETTICOAT palms when they built our house and community. We have watched these trees grow from small trees to very tall trees of about 35 ft. The squirrels love to jump from the wall into the trees and then chase each other jumping from one tree to another. I assure you, we are not imagining the long palm fronds and other debris that we pick up after heavy winds and/or storms. I DO resent, which is my prerogative, having to clean up this mess from trees not on our property. I don't have a 'yard man' but would be happy to have you come over. May I suggest you PM your name and phone number so, after the next storm, I can call you so you can come over and clean up. I'll leave the gate open. Thanking you in advance for knowing more about my situation than my husband or I do.

PS TV landscape workers told us that they are called PETTICOAT palms so if you don't want them called that, perhaps you should contact TV and register your complaint.

You are 100% correct. They are copernicia macroglossa—petticoat palms, and they are exactly as you describe.

[John_W]

John, are you by any chance from Harford County? We also moved here in 2011 and I remember seeing posts by you saying you were from Harford County. We still have family there. The past ten years (almost for us) have gone by so quickly.

Yes, we sold our home to the new Wegman's manager. They were a couple from NY, one managed Hunt Valley Wegmans and the other was assistant manager of the one that was still under construction in Abingdon at the time. I lived just about across the street from the new Wegmans, we were in Constant Friendship. When go west on 24 from I-95 toward Bel Air, they were the homes on the right that you would see the back of. We went back in 2013 on the Autotrain and we finally got to shop at the new Wegmans. I don't know if you can tell, but the cap in my avatar is a Ravens hat.

[Two Bills]

You are so wrong so let me correct you. We bought our home NEW and TV planted the PETTICOAT palms when they built our house and community. We have watched these trees grow from small trees to very tall trees of about 35 ft. The squirrels love to jump from the wall into the trees and then chase each other jumping from one tree to another. I assure you, we are not imagining the long palm fronds and other debris that we pick up after heavy winds and/or storms. I DO resent, which is my prerogative, having to clean up this mess from trees not on our property. I don't have a 'yard man' but would be happy to have you come over. May I suggest you PM your name and phone number so, after the next storm, I can call you so you can come over and clean up. I'll leave the gate open. Thanking you in advance for knowing more about my situation than my husband or I do.

PS TV landscape workers told us that they are called PETTICOAT palms so if you don't want them called that, perhaps you should contact TV and register your complaint.

To be honest, I would just throw all the rubbish back over the wall, and let TV maintainance clear up.
Their trees, their problem!

[SteveT]

Hi all, new to FL and TV. So what would you suggest planting in a small area for privacy? The landscaper suggested 2 Bougainville. After reading your comments I told him definitely not. Thank you.

Podocarpus is perfect for privacy, it's an evergreen shrub/hedge. Low maintenance, cold hardy, and used everywhere as a privacy hedge. You can see a large podocarpus hedge in front of Target to the right of the entrance.

[Maryland Girl]

Yes, we sold our home to the new Wegman's manager. They were a couple from NY, one managed Hunt Valley Wegmans and the other was assistant manager of the one that was still under construction in Abingdon at the time. I lived just about across the street from the new Wegmans, we were in Constant Friendship. When go west on 24 from I-95 toward Bel Air, they were the homes on the right that you would see the back of. We went back in 2013 on the Autotrain and we finally got to shop at the new Wegmans. I don't know if you can tell, but the cap in my avatar is a Ravens hat.

That is what I remember about your earlier posts; the fact they had built a new Wegman's near your home. We go to Wegman's whenever we go north and there is one nearby. We haven't been back to Bel Air for several years. The last time we were there the amount of growth was staggering. We lived in Linthicum near BWI in the same house from 1976-2011. My sister and her family and my mom lived across the street. Eventually my mom died, my niece and nephew went away to college and then got married and my sister and brother-in-law sold and moved to Bel Air to be near their daughter and her family. I'm not a big football fan, but my husband is a Raven's and Oriole's fan. He has an Orioles cap and a Raven's sweatshirt.

[Maryland Girl]

To be honest, I would just throw all the rubbish back over the wall, and let TV maintainance clear up.
Their trees, their problem!

We do that, too but sometimes it is just easier to clean and bag it ourselves.

[Maryland Girl]

You are 100% correct. They are copernicia macroglossa—petticoat palms, and they are exactly as you describe.

Thank you.

[2newyorkers]

Thank you for your information on what NOT to plant.....how about some suggestions for good things TO plant?

I have dwarf bottle brush. Almost zero maintenance. People often stop to ask about them.

[Bjeanj]

I have dwarf bottle brush. Almost zero maintenance. People often stop to ask about them.

I had to look that up. Those are striking!

[John_W]

...We lived in Linthicum near BWI in the same house from 1976-2011. My sister and her family and my mom lived across the street. Eventually my mom died, my niece and nephew went away to college and then got married and my sister and brother-in-law sold and moved to Bel Air to be near their daughter and her family. I'm not a big football fan, but my husband is a Raven's and Oriole's fan. He has an Orioles cap and a Raven's sweatshirt.

We were always in the northeast area, Parkville, White Marsh or Abingdon. I did work for a couple of years at a company just off I-97 right next to BWI, it was a business park and I didn't really see much else. Before the company moved there, they were located off West Patapsco Ave, not the greatest area but I found a really good sub shop in Arbutus I would go for lunch.

When we moved in 2011 we bought new, so we had the choice of Pennecamp, Buttonwood, St.James or Tamarind Grove depending on the type home we wanted and at what time. We went with a masonry CYV for immediate sale, so we ended up in Tamarind Grove near Sterling Hgts Rec Center. What village did you move to?

[jimjamuser]

We have 3 Sylvesters, a Ribbon palm, and several Sugar palms too around are pool, and I wouldn't trade them for the world. After all we do live in Florida. To not have them would be like not having firs and pine trees in the mountains! Yes there upkeep is a hassle, but if you like them and can afford the upkeep, plant them!
We like our red maple and sweet gum trees. Plant away from the house if possible. Also, like viburnum for a quasi-fence line - recommended for Fl. Boxwood hedges work in Fl. Podocarpus are hardy in Fl. Maybe one (only 1) Carolina Pine ( called Arizona out west) - they are a VERY pretty bluish-green color and smell great - their downside is that they take a lot of work and space. We had a Sycamore (AKA cottonwood out west), which was a BIG mistake. Don't make that mistake - giant leaves blowing around your yard and making your neighbors hate you. Also grows too large.

[Maryland Girl]

We were always in the northeast area, Parkville, White Marsh or Abingdon. I did work for a couple of years at a company just off I-97 right next to BWI, it was a business park and I didn't really see much else. Before the company moved there, they were located off West Patapsco Ave, not the greatest area but I found a really good sub shop in Arbutus I would go for lunch.

When we moved in 2011 we bought new, so we had the choice of Pennecamp, Buttonwood, St.James or Tamarind Grove depending on the type home we wanted and at what time. We went with a masonry CYV for immediate sale, so we ended up in Tamarind Grove near Sterling Hgts Rec Center. What village did you move to?

We came down in Nov., 2011 for a lifestyle preview and impulsively bought a lot in Buttonwood. After we returned home, we realized what we really wanted was an expanded CYV, which we didn't think existed at that time. In Dec., 2011, I happened to go onto TV website and new CYV's in Edgewater Bungalows were up for sale. While on the phone with our realtor, who was driving through the Bungalows, I said the only house we really wanted was an expanded, two-car garage one that had sold. He kept saying, "but that house is sold." I know I was frustrating him no end, but then he got really quiet and finally said, "I don't think the sale of that house is going through." He then said he would get in the queue and try to get it for us. A couple of days later, he called and said the house was ours. He said a man from Georgia had bought it without his wife seeing it and she had said no way was she going to buy a house she had not seen. Well, that is how we ended up in our CYV. We had two doggies when we moved down so our large yard was a good thing for them. They have since both died. Anyway, that is the saga of how we came to live in our CYV, which we like and enjoy to this day.

I know there are a lot of business parks around BWI now and we know Arbutus well. Linthicum started as a farming community and has a lot of history attached to it. When we moved there in 1976, it was just a sleepy small town community. Over the years, the airport, Baltimore City and the Light Rail have put a lot of pressure on it. So many of the small businesses have been sold and small shopping plazas have sprung up with new businesses in them. We probably would have stayed if not for the snow and ice and the interior stairs. Now how we ended up in TV is another story altogether.

[Waddling Eagle]

Sylvester palms are not bad. The males bear no fruit; the females, however, produce large clusters of orange dates which need to be cleaned up once a year. The dates are edible, but there is not much meat on them. Neither is it difficult to trim a Sylvester yourself. And if your palm becomes a nuisance, there is no approval required to remove it as palms are a species of grass and not true trees.

Citrus trees are not high maintenance items, but you do have to keep them picked as you would any fruit tree.

Most trees have one problem or another. But any tree is better than a barren wasteland.

You can grow all kinds of subtropical fruit, including bananas, pineapples, guavas, papayas, and many others. While some of these can be damaged by frost, they grow back quickly. I do not recommend mangos if you don't like giant trees.

[bobdeb]

If you really, really really want to plant a palm go with a pindo.

They are pricey, but quite lovely. Very slow growing, thankfully, and cold hardy.

They still have nasty leaf spikes but are much more manageable than a king (Sylvester) or queen palm.

European fan palms are also slow growing and cold hardy... and pricey too.

Wonder why they cost more? duh.

[flflowers]

So what is left? Grass and rocks? Is there any tree you recommend! Crepe Myrtle is beautiful, but it can be messy, too. There are neighbors down the street from me who have papaya trees. Those are interesting, but I don’t know if they ever ripen. There are live oaks and pines right behind my property, on the golf course. I love them. Pruning? Raking? Blowing? Weeds? Fertilizing? Mowing? That’s what the yard guys do. I’m retired.

I'm not from Florida, but recently moved to the Villages...I inherited a "banana bush", it's in the Magnolia family. The previous owner trimmed it into rounded shape and it is right now about 6' tall and about 4' wide. After some research, I found out that to leave it grow natural is it's best show of beauty. Suggested places to plant is near a bedroom window or courtyard area where you can most appreciate the wonderful fragrance of it's blossoms. I have not been able to do that yet, but right now it is absolutely covered with buds...I cannot wait. I have decided to trim all the bottom branches and then let it grow into natural state. They grow about 15'. I do not have a picture of mine but you can google to see and read about care. Also, it's an evergreen.

[Sherry8bal]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

Palm trees are a great hangout place for cockroaches too. They love them!!

Live oaks are so messy, I would never ever have one, same goes for a magnolia tree!

[bobdeb]

What to plant?

After 11 years in TV I'm still no expert but I've had wonderful results with small leaf azaleas. Not sure why small leaf is so much better but they are over the larger leaf varieties.

The colors are endless and what says spring more in the South than a blooming azalea bush? They are hardy and seem to be disease and insect tolerant. Do fairly well in sun or partial sun. Easy to maintain. (Don't prune until the blossoms are gone. But why would you?)

Gardenias are lovely plants. Can't get them to flower much. Suggestions welcomed.

I couldn't wait to plant a hibiscus when I moved here. Gorgeous bush, but they will grow and will need some maintenance. Don't plant on the north side of your home.

We've had a variety of other things with mixed results.

Planted a rosemary bush. Seems to grow slowly but will offer a lifetime of seasoning. Lol. Still waiting for it to blossom. Rather plain looking without flowers... so far.

Crepe myrtle is manageable.

There have been other successes for sure along with some failures.

[karen gay]

Here's what landscaping can do for property. This is the home I sold in 2011 in the Baltimore suburbs to move to TV. I bought the home new in '98 and over the 13 years I bought some shrubs every spring when I bought new bags of mulch, and did all the landscaping myself. The tree in the middle was the only thing I saved from the original builder's landscaping.

https://scontent-mia3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67213569_1347007352130460_2385089918943625216_o.jp g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=nIrsE0Z7RKoAX9zWB4C&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-1.xx&oh=7a3388bffd3595c4ebc926ba416f38a8&oe=60576354

Since I sold the home about ten years ago, it has been resold three times. The most recent seller posted this photo on zillow. They basically removed everything but the tree.

https://photos.zillowstatic.com/fp/7adc27f07107a65f4d1787cba82b0d08-uncropped_scaled_within_1536_1152.webp
Oh, so bare...

[Bjeanj]

What to plant?

After 11 years in TV I'm still no expert but I've had wonderful results with small leaf azaleas. Not sure why small leaf is so much better but they are over the larger leaf varieties.

Gardenias are lovely plants. Can't get them to flower much. Suggestions welcomed.

I have about 8 azaleas, which I think are gorgeous, and 3 gardenias. You’re right, my gardenias haven’t flowered much and am trying MiracleGro for acid-loving plants. Will see how that works.

[Finchs]

There is a live oak tree behind our house. It’s on TV property but is close enough to shed its leaves on our yard. That happens once a year. It’s a nuisance for about a month but our lawn service removes them when they mow. But the majestic tree is beautiful to look at from the lanai, it provides shade in the back yard, blocks the sun and during storms becomes a wind screen. So yes, the leaves are a bother but the tree gives more than it takes and that is a good measure.

I have lived thru enough Fl summers (it only takes one if you are paying attention) to appreciate the value of the Live Oaks and Magnolias for the shade they provide! The little oak leaves and acorns are truly an annual nuisance, but I am happy to let my gardener blow them weekly and use my garden blower as needed in between to clear the driveway because they give me precious shade from the setting western sun. I begged my neighbor to not take theirs down because that blistering sun would hit my house full on if the tree across the street were gone.
Driving thru the southern new homes being built, I noticed a preponderance of palm trees (very few oaks and magnolias) and a lack of green golf courses winding thru those houses down there. I think they will swelter will all the rooftops and concrete with nothing but palms over them in the summertime.
Take down the Oaks and Magnolias at your peril, IMO!!!

[John_W]

We came down in Nov., 2011 for a lifestyle preview and impulsively bought a lot in Buttonwood. After we returned home, we realized what we really wanted was an expanded CYV, which we didn't think existed at that time. In Dec., 2011, I happened to go onto TV website and new CYV's in Edgewater Bungalows were up for sale. While on the phone with our realtor, who was driving through the Bungalows, I said the only house we really wanted was an expanded, two-car garage one that had sold. He kept saying, "but that house is sold." I know I was frustrating him no end, but then he got really quiet and finally said, "I don't think the sale of that house is going through." He then said he would get in the queue and try to get it for us. A couple of days later, he called and said the house was ours. He said a man from Georgia had bought it without his wife seeing it and she had said no way was she going to buy a house she had not seen. Well, that is how we ended up in our CYV. We had two doggies when we moved down so our large yard was a good thing for them. They have since both died. Anyway, that is the saga of how we came to live in our CYV, which we like and enjoy to this day.

I know there are a lot of business parks around BWI now and we know Arbutus well. Linthicum started as a farming community and has a lot of history attached to it. When we moved there in 1976, it was just a sleepy small town community. Over the years, the airport, Baltimore City and the Light Rail have put a lot of pressure on it. So many of the small businesses have been sold and small shopping plazas have sprung up with new businesses in them. We probably would have stayed if not for the snow and ice and the interior stairs. Now how we ended up in TV is another story altogether.

We came in April of 2011 on a LSV for 7 days and stayed in the real nice cottage homes on the east side of LSL sales office, at the base of the Morse Bridge. I remember seeing those Edgewater Bungalows for sale on the internet, my budget was $185K so that eliminated them. Although I remember some went in the low 2's and I probably could of stretched the budget, but decided not to. I wish we did have a 2 car garage, I had a Camaro for a short while, but one of the reasons I got rid of it was because it was so a tight fit with the golf cart.

We closed July 5th of 2011, we arrived in late June but because of 4th of July Holiday we couldn't close beforehand, all the dates were already taken. We didn't have a lot of notice, we sold our home the morning after we listed it, in less than 18 hours. We had been here 3 weeks earlier on our LSV, so rather than make another trip, we bought our villa sight-unseen ourselves. The photos had not been put on the website yet. So our salesman drove over that night and took photos and emailed them to us.

So we stayed at the Holiday Inn at SS for about a week waiting to close. I actually like our location just below Buttonwood. We're 3-1/2 miles to LSL and 3-1/2 miles to Brownwood. We were going to BW five days a week to MVP, so this was convenient, we've cut it back to just 2 or 3 days a week now. My wife likes Zumba and I do the treadmill and weights. To me, the two best squares are both very close and I have 7 championship golf courses within 20 minutes by cart and Glenview is 25 minutes.

I grew up in Florida (St. Petersburg), I was born in Baltimore but my parents moved to Florida when I was in the 4th grade. However, in '89 I went back to Baltimore to visit and ended up getting married and staying for the next 22 years.

[JayK!]

Bismark Palm (will overtake your small yard). Christmas palm (not frost resistant).

[Girlcopper]

Just my opinion, however, I do have some experience with the following.

These are some things I highly recommend you Do Not plant in your yard in The Villages. Please add whatever else you feel is appropriate.

1. Live Oak. Well, you may not have a choice here as one may already exist on your property. I love oak trees, and the shade they offer is welcomed from the heat of the sun.

However, you be forever dealing with relentless and testy little leaves and acorns that are difficult to control and clean up. They will ruin your lawn.

Personally, I would resist buying a home that already had an oak tree in the yard. And your nearby neighbor's live oak tree will also add to your endless yardwork.

They grow slowly but will eventually become enormous and offer yet more leaves and acorns.

2. Magnolia trees. These also grow very large and add to your relentless yard work. The flowers are lovely but I'm not a big fan of the huge leaves.

3. Citrus trees. Don't do it. It's tempting I know. Citrus trees take more care than one might imagine. So many of these grow unattended. There may be exceptions with some folks but the fruit will be beyond your ability to process or give away. It will fall and rot and attrack rats. And, in turn, the rats will attract snakes. Fruit trees are especially problematic for snow birds to manage.

The upside is that many citrus trees are quite attractive and the scent of the blossoms is exquisite.

4. Palm trees. I have four sylvester (king) palms, one pindo and one European fan.

The king and queen palms will grow beyond your ability to prune yourself. You will have to hire a crew annually to do that for you. Also, all palms have incredibly nasty thorns. You could lose an eye if not careful. The immature leaves are sharp spikes. Queen palm pods are extremely heavy and they will fall. The fruit from the king palms is significant to clean up.

European fan palms are full of needle like black slivers.

Face it, these trees evolved to protect themselves. It's tempting but don't plant palm trees. You'll thank me some day.

5. Anything else with nasty thorns unless you want a barrier between your home and your neighbors.

Agreewith everything except palm trees. Mine are pruned annually and look gorgeous

[Jewelz]

I had to look that up. Those are striking!

I have seen them around and they are beautiful!!

[Jewelz]

Thanks for all of the great info! We are new homeowners and plan to do a little freshening up to our 9 year old villa landscaping- I found some little specimen palms at Home Depot that will stay small and hopefully easy to maintain!

[almondz]

We specifically bought a house with no shedding trees. However, the neighbor behind us has one and guess where all the leaves end up? Yep, in the flower bed around our bird cage. I hate it, and the flower bed is not taken care of by lawn people - we have to do it. The squirrel's, as someone else pointed out, run all over the birdcage and mess with our dogs. The tree is near the end of the neighbor's driveway so offers no shade to his house or anything. It is a useless tree and boy do I wish it gone!

[bobdeb]

Live oaks are lovely to look at, on your property or in a park.

We have two homes here in TV. One has St Augustine grass. The annual cleanup of live oak leaves and acorns now fills 8 of those huge leaf bags. Eight! Yes, the huge paper bags.

And my neighbor's tree has huge limbs that go over my home. Yes, need to deal with that now.

And my rain gutters need cleaning out twice a year. Guess I need to invest in those screen things.

I love trees. I just don't want live oaks on my property or near by.

My neighbor, across the street no less, has a huge one and leaves will flood my garage if I leave the doors open. Yes, I have garage screens there too.

Look it's not like you have to defend trees with me. It's a huge mess for me rather than a cozy afternoon of raking.

No thanks.

[DaisyDE]

The wild lime plant s thorny, but should be welcomed to any garden, just placed in an area people won't often frequent. They are beautiful and the best part is they attract the most beautiful Giant Swallowtail butterflies. These yellow and black butters will lay eggs on the plant, so be sure not to spray or plant in an area treated (poisoned) with chemicals.

[EviesGP]

Where were you 8 1/2 years ago? I wish I'd never planted palms. What a mess! Can't wait till they are dead and gone but then I might be before they are.

Exactly what I was going to say...where were you 2 1/2 years ago, when I was looking to buy??? JK:). Seriously, I kind of violated 2 out of the 4 recommendations(plus 1). I say kind of, because I bought a pre-owned with 2 palms(I trim myself, but they're not as appealing as I thought). I planted 2 lime trees for wife(for her Patron). And I just bought a Bougainvillea from HD(beautiful flowers), but it's only in a pot! I'll have to watch for the thorns! Thanks for the info.

[Maryland Girl]

We came in April of 2011 on a LSV for 7 days and stayed in the real nice cottage homes on the east side of LSL sales office, at the base of the Morse Bridge. I remember seeing those Edgewater Bungalows for sale on the internet, my budget was $185K so that eliminated them. Although I remember some went in the low 2's and I probably could of stretched the budget, but decided not to. I wish we did have a 2 car garage, I had a Camaro for a short while, but one of the reasons I got rid of it was because it was so a tight fit with the golf cart.

We closed July 5th of 2011, we arrived in late June but because of 4th of July Holiday we couldn't close beforehand, all the dates were already taken. We didn't have a lot of notice, we sold our home the morning after we listed it, in less than 18 hours. We had been here 3 weeks earlier on our LSV, so rather than make another trip, we bought our villa sight-unseen ourselves. The photos had not been put on the website yet. So our salesman drove over that night and took photos and emailed them to us.

So we stayed at the Holiday Inn at SS for about a week waiting to close. I actually like our location just below Buttonwood. We're 3-1/2 miles to LSL and 3-1/2 miles to Brownwood. We were going to BW five days a week to MVP, so this was convenient, we've cut it back to just 2 or 3 days a week now. My wife likes Zumba and I do the treadmill and weights. To me, the two best squares are both very close and I have 7 championship golf courses within 20 minutes by cart and Glenview is 25 minutes.

I grew up in Florida (St. Petersburg), I was born in Baltimore but my parents moved to Florida when I was in the 4th grade. However, in '89 I went back to Baltimore to visit and ended up getting married and staying for the next 22 years.

That is nice that you got to stay in one of the cottages. I remember they went on sale around the same time the Edgewater Bungalows did. I think they were going in the 500-700 thousand range but I could be off on that. I told my husband about your giving up your Camaro and that got a reaction out of him.

That is great that you sold your MD home so quickly. It took us about 3 months and we were glad when it sold. We bought our home in TV before selling the one in MD so it was a relief to get settled and not have to worry about selling or buying anymore. That was brave of you to buy your home sight unseen but I'm sure the photos helped. It sounds like you and your wife made the right decision. You are centrally located to all the activities you enjoy. I had never heard of Zumba until moving down here. You must really like to golf. I don't golf but my husband does. He took lessons after moving here but he sticks to the Executive courses.

From the age of 2, I lived in Baltimore City until I was 16 and then we moved to Baltimore County. Eventually, after college and marriage, my husband and I settled in Anne Arundel County and lived there from 1970-2011. I have so many memories of Baltimore including riding public transportation across town to and from school starting in Jr. HS at age 12. For better or worse, I haven't been there for many years. TV is amazing in that most everyone is from somewhere else. We run into people from MD and NY state (where my husband is from) regularly.The retired teacher's association of Anne Arundel County held their annual FL trip in TV, staying at the Waterfront Inn and posting numerous photos taken around TV. You have probably had similar experiences. TV is just a unique place.

[jimjamuser]

The point is read before you buy. Most any plant will have pluses and minuses. The catch all line is the right plant in the right place. We are all guilty. You go to the garden center or the box store and they all look great in the pot ready to be sold to you.

Mistakes? I am growing blueberries. Our soil ph is 7-8 and they need 4.5-5. For success you will need to grow them in pots-really big pots. Read that as heavy.
Truth they produce tons of fruit. The birds? I figure they are welcome to say 10%
First couple of years they took half. A sign that if they want to take more than 10% they should pay part of the expense. Seems they can't read. A few years they did leave me 10%. Now it is a race and they are either getting fast or I am getting slower.

I am an ex-northerner. At least up north the birds wait for the blueberries to ripen before stealing them. Up north the birds always left me more than enough. Florida birds have no class. They will eat them green and do not care to leave me any for my labor.
Get out the Red Ryder. Put up a target in the pot. Something like a bell that when hit will startle them. Pretend they are Black Bart. They might get that hint.

[mjpuleo]

I have dwarf pindo palm in my front yard. love it!!! just trim off the bottom branches if they fall too far to the ground. Blue daze flowers are wonderful for accents and very hardy.

[tvbound]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. While we won't have a choice in the plants and landscaping of the used home we eventually purchase, it has certainly been educational on what might end up being removed and what to plant in the future.

[Villageswimmer]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. While we won't have a choice in the plants and landscaping of the used home we eventually purchase, it has certainly been educational on what might end up being removed and what to plant in the future.

Good luck to you in your new home and landscaping. The Sumter County Master Gardeners offer a free, informative session titled “Florida Friendly Landscaping.” It’s usually offered at Rohan Rec Center. Watch the Daily Sun for the schedule. I think you will find the content interesting and helpful, and it will likely save you money by avoiding mistakes. Right plant, right place.

Take your time in making decisions.

The plants installed by the developer, even though you’re not thrilled with them now, are typically Florida friendly. Give them a chance while you learn as much as possible about available options.

[bobdeb]

The previous owner next door planted two loquat trees right close to his house. (I think I got the name right.) What a mess. Large leaves continually in my yard. Like daily.

The new owners thankfully had them removed as the branches were rubbing against their home. Not to mention the rotten fruit.

Can you say wahoo!

[Rosebud2020]

[=Jewelz;1905581]Thanks for all of the great info! We are new homeowners and plan to do a little freshening up to our 9 year old villa landscaping- I found some little specimen palms at Home Depot that will stay small and hopefully easy to maintain![/QUOTE]

Would you happen to know the name of the palms?

Are you planting them in the ground or in pots?

[big guy]

There is a live oak tree behind our house. It’s on TV property but is close enough to shed its leaves on our yard. That happens once a year. It’s a nuisance for about a month but our lawn service removes them when they mow. But the majestic tree is beautiful to look at from the lanai, it provides shade in the back yard, blocks the sun and during storms becomes a wind screen. So yes, the leaves are a bother but the tree gives more than it takes and that is a good measure.

Those live oaks lose something year round.....not just a month.

[big guy]

Depends on the individual. I like trees and all they do for the environment. Plus I’m still in pretty good health and am not averse to doing work. Yard work is good exercise that in the long run might contribute to a longer life.

I agree completely. Trees and plants in tropical environments often have thorns. I grew up with poisonous thorny plants but learned to keep my distance. And I learned an appreciation for them. Yards and gardens weren't so "controlled" because of the thorns. But they were pretty.

[big guy]

Live oaks are probably my most favorite tree. However, they grow a minimum of 50" tall and 50' wide, and the postage-size lots in TV are not large enough to accommodate them.

I agree completely with you but your quote of 40 X 40 is off. They get 40 to 80ft high and 80 to 140 ft wide. They should have never been planted here. They are a tree to be planted a distance from the house. They will cause a problem as they mature.

[Tmarkwald]

Yes, we sold our home to the new Wegman's manager. They were a couple from NY, one managed Hunt Valley Wegmans and the other was assistant manager of the one that was still under construction in Abingdon at the time. I lived just about across the street from the new Wegmans, we were in Constant Friendship. When go west on 24 from I-95 toward Bel Air, they were the homes on the right that you would see the back of. We went back in 2013 on the Autotrain and we finally got to shop at the new Wegmans. I don't know if you can tell, but the cap in my avatar is a Ravens hat.

Well, good to meet ya! We are from Chesapeake Beach. I commute between TV and MD often... still working in MD, although remote..

[Topspinmo]

I will assume you are speaking about Washingtonia Palms and what you have called a "petticoat" is called a skirt. I cannot imagine that your yard is "full of their debris" because they shed very infrequently (perhaps only one or two fronds) in high winds and that is why they have a skirt.
,
You will find Washingtonia Palms all over Florida and in California, interestingly, a variety of the Washingtonia Palm is their state palm!

I have a feeling those palms were there before you. If you resent having to pick up the fronds -- don't! Let your yard man pick them up..

So why are they laying everywhere after storm? IMO the ugliest palm of the all.

[bgamble3]

Hi all, new to FL and TV. So what would you suggest planting in a small area for privacy? The landscaper suggested 2 Bougainville. After reading your comments I told him definitely not. Thank you.
Try planting Bayberry (bush that can grow into tree). Fast growing, very little maintenance, has fragrance that attracts birds and butterflies. Original use was to make candles.

[timt@reagan.com]

Bougainvilleas do not invade everything!
Yes, they have thorns, and as long as you know that (you know that now!), they need to be planted responsibly, meaning in the proper place. They are beautiful, thrive on neglect (!), and are easily pruned back, if necessary.

The Crown of Thorns is a completely different plant from Bougainvilleas and the Bougainvillea was not the plant adorning the head of Jesus.

Don't you think, Jesus was smarter than that?