View Full Version : To Vaccinate or not to vaccinate
Tmarkwald
03-08-2021, 05:53 AM
It seems like way too many threads are full of opinions one way or the other. Nothing anyone says is going to convince some to go against what their desire is. Attempting to convince someone to follow your lead just causes resentment and confusion.
Vaxxers tell anti-vaxxers that the vaccine is the best preventative measure against contracting Covid-19.
Anti-vaxxers say you're allowing a ticking timebomb to be placed in your system that someday may kill you.
Folks, make up your own mind. Do your own research. You're all smart folks.
And, one way or the other, I'm not incredibly worried about an event that may or may happen, whether it is next month or 30 years from now.....
jswirs
03-08-2021, 06:02 AM
It seems like way too many threads are full of opinions one way or the other. Nothing anyone says is going to convince some to go against what their desire is. Attempting to convince someone to follow your lead just causes resentment and confusion.
Vaxxers tell anti-vaxxers that the vaccine is the best preventative measure against contracting Covid-19.
Anti-vaxxers say you're allowing a ticking timebomb to be placed in your system that someday may kill you.
Folks, make up your own mind. Do your own research. You're all smart folks.
And, one way or the other, I'm not incredibly worried about an event that may or may happen, whether it is next month or 30 years from now.....
EXACTLY! I've been saying the same thing for months now. My take on the never ending comments about mask / anti - mask , vac / anti - vac is that folks just like to complain about others not doing what they are doing. As for me, I just circle back to to the lyrics by Paul McCartney: LET IT BE!
billethkid
03-08-2021, 08:44 AM
Keep in mind we are hearing from a very small minority.
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have received their shots and have been living life without incident.
Seems the majority does not get as much attention these days (as it once did).
stanley
03-08-2021, 08:58 AM
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have received their shots and have been living life without incident.
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have not received their shots and have been living life without incident also.
billethkid
03-08-2021, 09:04 AM
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have not received their shots and have been living life without incident also.
Agreed.
graciegirl
03-08-2021, 09:05 AM
Keep in mind we are hearing from a very small minority.
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have received their shots and have been living life without incident.
Seems the majority does not get as much attention these days (as it once did).
OH yes.
I would like to meet the three of them who try to sway the opinion of this country. I envision them to be two women and one man, all under thirty in some office in Manhattan, at this time looking through children's books and checking in with Oprah.
Bonnevie
03-08-2021, 09:08 AM
well, can only give you one anecdote. of 3 women in neighborhood, two of us got the vaccine. third wanted to wait until one shot available. she's currently sick with covid. she didn't do anything different from what she had been doing so it could be she caught the more transmissible variant. she's been pretty sick but will probably be ok, but maybe could have been avoided had she got vaccine when we did.
JimJohnson
03-08-2021, 09:23 AM
Not to vaccinate is a selfish act
stanley
03-08-2021, 09:44 AM
Not to vaccinate is a selfish act
You can call it what you want, but it's also my personal choice and right not to get vaccinated.
coffeebean
03-08-2021, 10:00 AM
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have not received their shots and have been living life without incident also.
As in the words of Dirty Harry, "You can ask yourself a question. Do I feel lucky?"
stanley
03-08-2021, 10:16 AM
As in the words of Dirty Harry, "You can ask yourself a question. Do I feel lucky?"
Actually.... yes
Kenswing
03-08-2021, 10:27 AM
This is like the movie "Groundhog Day".. :1rotfl:
Swoop
03-08-2021, 10:31 AM
As of today I know 17 people who have had Covid. 16 have fully recovered without any issues the 17th was just diagnosed. None have required hospitalization. Four would never even known that they had it. The only reason they found out was they were tested before traveling. According to the CDC 94% of Covid coded deaths had multiple comorbidities, with the average having 2.6. Among the common comorbidities were obesity, cancer & lung disease. If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low.
OrangeBlossomBaby
03-08-2021, 10:53 AM
If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low.
And the chances of you surviving with new health problems you didn't have before is high.
Meanwhile:
My sister's had asthma for a couple of decades, and has to use steroid medications to manage it. As a result of the steroids, she is overweight. She took the recommended precautions: wore a mask when she left the house, stayed home as much as possible, washed her hands, social distanced when she left her house. She ended up sick, diagnosed with COVID-19. She took precautions, but it seems her housemate chose not to take those precautions. He was sick as well. My sister now has more damage to her lungs, and it took her over a month to recover as much as she has from the virus. It's unknown whether her lung damage will heal.
But hey she lived, right? And her housemate got to exercise his freedom to choose whether or not to be masked when he left his house and went to friends and family, right? Even though - if HE had worn his mask, kept a social distance, didn't go socializing with friends and family in close quarters without masks, and didn't listen to the Qonspiracy horsecrap, she wouldn't have gotten sick at all.
Someone else I know wasn't so "lucky." They're dead.
A few other people in my family all got sick and have recovered completely, but they were out of work for a couple of weeks, had to use their paid sick time. One was in the hospital and wasn't allowed any visitors at all and since they were on an upper floor, they didn't even have the opportunity to have loved ones sit outside the window so they could talk.
The "inconvenience" of having to wear a mask is a trivial insult to anyone who has had to endure the fall-out of being sick, subsequent physical damage to their organs, using up sick time and being out of work (and you know when you return to work you now have 2 weeks of stuff to deal with piled up on your desk, because you weren't there to do it).
The only reason I'm not vaccinated yet is because it's not my turn in my community. I don't want to be "inconvenienced" with the possibility of getting sick and having to isolate from other people. I don't want to be "inconvenienced" with the possibility that I - and everyone else in the family - has to miss my cousin's wedding because too many of us are NOT vaccinated and she won't risk us all getting sick and will therefore postpone the reception or simply not have one at all and keep the wedding restricted to her, her fiance, their parents, and the rabbi.
So for those reasons - because I don't want to even THINK about being inconvenienced anymore, I will get the vaccine when it's my turn.
JohnN
03-08-2021, 11:52 AM
OP, you had me in agreement on everything until you said "You're all smart folks".
graciegirl
03-08-2021, 12:47 PM
As of today I know 17 people who have had Covid. 16 have fully recovered without any issues the 17th was just diagnosed. None have required hospitalization. Four would never even known that they had it. The only reason they found out was they were tested before traveling. According to the CDC 94% of Covid coded deaths had multiple comorbidities, with the average having 2.6. Among the common comorbidities were obesity, cancer & lung disease. If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low .
If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid-19 are lower with the highest being those over 65. If you are over 75, healthy or not your chances of dying from it are one in ten.
I know six people personally who have had Covid. Three are fully recovered, two after being hospitalized, one in intensive care.
The other three have died from Covid 19. Two were over 75 and one was 69 and appeared healthy. I saw him riding his bike a lot.
graciegirl
03-08-2021, 12:49 PM
The CDC announced just a short time ago that fully vaccinated people could gather together, indoors, without masks and without social distancing.
Wonder when we can safely hug?
dhdallas
03-08-2021, 02:34 PM
It seems like way too many threads are full of opinions one way or the other. Nothing anyone says is going to convince some to go against what their desire is. Attempting to convince someone to follow your lead just causes resentment and confusion.
Vaxxers tell anti-vaxxers that the vaccine is the best preventative measure against contracting Covid-19.
Anti-vaxxers say you're allowing a ticking timebomb to be placed in your system that someday may kill you.
Folks, make up your own mind. Do your own research. You're all smart folks.
And, one way or the other, I'm not incredibly worried about an event that may or may happen, whether it is next month or 30 years from now.....
My views are well known. I wasn't that surprised that so many had closed minds but what did catch me off guard was the vileness of the comments and the hatred directed toward me and my family just because I stated an opinion contrary to theirs. This forum doesn't allow for severe personal attacks but I have had Letters to the Editor of local papers published & other online forums and the attacks were just plain mean & evil. People have gone so far as to wish me “homeless at Christmas”, "my house burn down", that my children “die of stomach cancer” and more. I have also been called a “quack”, a “know-it-all”, “part of the problem”, a “disgrace”, “brainwashed by Trump” (of course) and the list goes on and on.
It seems when someone is unable to articulate a reasonable alternate counterpoint, they resort to name calling & insults. Whatever happened to having a civil discussion where one might say, "I understand what you are saying but I disagree and this is why."?
They remind me of radical followers of a religion. Death to the infidel who dares speak blasphemy!
Velvet
03-08-2021, 03:28 PM
My views are well known. I wasn't that surprised that so many had closed minds but what did catch me off guard was the vileness of the comments and the hatred directed toward me and my family just because I stated an opinion contrary to theirs. This forum doesn't allow for severe personal attacks but I have had Letters to the Editor of local papers published & other online forums and the attacks were just plain mean & evil. People have gone so far as to wish me “homeless at Christmas”, "my house burn down", that my children “die of stomach cancer” and more. I have also been called a “quack”, a “know-it-all”, “part of the problem”, a “disgrace”, “brainwashed by Trump” (of course) and the list goes on and on.
It seems when someone is unable to articulate a reasonable alternate counterpoint, they resort to name calling & insults. Whatever happened to having a civil discussion where one might say, "I understand what you are saying but I disagree and this is why."?
They remind me of radical followers of a religion. Death to the infidel who dares speak blasphemy!
What you’re hearing, in my opinion, is fear. People are afraid of the consequences of Covid. It comes out as hate.
Even a mouse will fight if cornered.
Swoop
03-08-2021, 03:29 PM
If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid-19 are lower with the highest being those over 65. If you are over 75, healthy or not your chances of dying from it are one in ten.
I know six people personally who have had Covid. Three are fully recovered, two after being hospitalized, one in intensive care.
The other three have died from Covid 19. Two were over 75 and one was 69 and appeared healthy. I saw him riding his bike a lot.
The fact is that a higher percentage of people over 75 have preexisting conditions. Couple that with a less robust immune system and it makes that segment of the population more vulnerable. However the odds of a 75 year old without preexisting conditions surviving Covid are a lot better than a 75 year old with multiple preexisting conditions. It’s not “If you are over 75, healthy or not your chances of dying from it are one in ten.”
graciegirl
03-08-2021, 03:39 PM
What you’re hearing, in my opinion, is fear. People are afraid of the consequences of Covid. It comes out as hate.
Even a mouse will fight if cornered.
I think that is very close to the real truth and I just read that many people are extremely frightened of injections. When Helene had so many medical procedures when she was tiny, we had to do everything we could to make her not rail against the doctors and nurses for blood draws and we did.
I understand that kind of fear. I don't hate people who don't see the reason for shots and masks. I feel very sad for them.
I just found this, not anything to do with your post velvet, but a recent count of cases and deaths from many countries of the world. From Johns Hopkins, a very reliable source.
Map: Track coronavirus deaths around the world (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/world-map-coronavirus-deaths-country-covid-19-n1170211)
jimjamuser
03-08-2021, 07:11 PM
As of today I know 17 people who have had Covid. 16 have fully recovered without any issues the 17th was just diagnosed. None have required hospitalization. Four would never even known that they had it. The only reason they found out was they were tested before traveling. According to the CDC 94% of Covid coded deaths had multiple comorbidities, with the average having 2.6. Among the common comorbidities were obesity, cancer & lung disease. If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low.
I could agree that there is a low risk of DYING from CV. But, when you add in the factors of "long haul CV symptoms and the numbers of people that have NEAR death experiences in hospitals ( and large hospital bills), you get to a seriously high-risk factor. You could die from CV in 2 weeks' time. Obesity and cancer can take much longer. Cancer is MUCH harder to prevent than CV - there are no simple, specific ways to avoid cancer like to avoid CV - just vaccinations, masks, avoid indoors, and distancing. 80% of CV deaths are to people over 65, most of who are technically and medically obese. So, when someone dies that is BOTH obese and has CV, the cause of death HAS to be listed as CV because they could have lived for MANY years just being obese. It is NOT some grand statistical conspiracy that their death is listed as because of CV.
Swoop
03-08-2021, 07:33 PM
I could agree that there is a low risk of DYING from CV. But, when you add in the factors of "long haul CV symptoms and the numbers of people that have NEAR death experiences in hospitals ( and large hospital bills), you get to a seriously high-risk factor. You could die from CV in 2 weeks' time. Obesity and cancer can take much longer. Cancer is MUCH harder to prevent than CV - there are no simple, specific ways to avoid cancer like to avoid CV - just vaccinations, masks, avoid indoors, and distancing. 80% of CV deaths are to people over 65, most of who are technically and medically obese. So, when someone dies that is BOTH obese and has CV, the cause of death HAS to be listed as CV because they could have lived for MANY years just being obese. It is NOT some grand statistical conspiracy that their death is listed as because of CV.
We seem to agree. If you are obese, if you’re battling cancer or if you lungs are compromised you are in a much higher Covid risk category. If you don’t have preexisting conditions, the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low. No conspiracy, just facts...
OrangeBlossomBaby
03-08-2021, 08:18 PM
We seem to agree. If you are obese, if you’re battling cancer or if you lungs are compromised you are in a much higher Covid risk category. If you don’t have preexisting conditions, the chances of you dying from Covid are extremely low. No conspiracy, just facts...
You're missing the point.
If you don't have pre-existing conditions, there is still an elevated risk of permanent lung and/or heart damage if you get COVID and SURVIVE it.
Boffin
03-08-2021, 08:29 PM
People who think vaccination changes their DNA should look at this as an opportunity.
stanley
03-08-2021, 08:42 PM
You're missing the point.
If you don't have pre-existing conditions, there is still an elevated risk of permanent lung and/or heart damage if you get COVID and SURVIVE it.
How much of an "elevated" risk?
Swoop
03-08-2021, 10:22 PM
You're missing the point.
If you don't have pre-existing conditions, there is still an elevated risk of permanent lung and/or heart damage if you get COVID and SURVIVE it.
According to the WHO:
“Risk factors for persistence of symptoms: high blood pressure, obesity, mental health conditions”
Not healthy people...
chet2020
03-09-2021, 12:18 AM
My views are well known. I wasn't that surprised that so many had closed minds but what did catch me off guard was the vileness of the comments and the hatred directed toward me and my family just because I stated an opinion contrary to theirs. This forum doesn't allow for severe personal attacks but I have had Letters to the Editor of local papers published & other online forums and the attacks were just plain mean & evil. People have gone so far as to wish me “homeless at Christmas”, "my house burn down", that my children “die of stomach cancer” and more. I have also been called a “quack”, a “know-it-all”, “part of the problem”, a “disgrace”, “brainwashed by Trump” (of course) and the list goes on and on.
It seems when someone is unable to articulate a reasonable alternate counterpoint, they resort to name calling & insults. Whatever happened to having a civil discussion where one might say, "I understand what you are saying but I disagree and this is why."?
They remind me of radical followers of a religion. Death to the infidel who dares speak blasphemy!
Your positions on the pandemic are the antithesis of public health and I strongly disagree with them. Still, it is ridiculous that people resort to the kind of distasteful comments that you have experienced.
Love2Swim
03-09-2021, 05:25 AM
To me it seems morally reprehensible to not get the vaccine, and be a person who endangers the health of others, which is what happens when people don't get vaccinated, and become asymptomatic carriers. Unless one has a valid excuse - for example too frail to deal with any side effects of the shot, or allergic, pregnant, etc., I don't see any excuse for not getting vaccinated. Looking at the practical side, one's actions may be limited in the future without having a vaccination card - travel to certain countries may be curtailed, ability to participate in certain group activities. In the future, it may be required for children to attend school, similiar to other vaccines like polio.
jswirs
03-09-2021, 05:47 AM
Not to vaccinate is a selfish act
What is of most value to all of us? The answer is simple, our health. I refuse to be vaccinated with some sort of insufficiently tested substance, which, from what I hear, will never leave your body, and could, at some time in the future, be detrimental to our health. Should I contract Covid, I will most likely survive with no after effects. I do not trust our government, or others who are in some position of power, because many times they have their own agenda which is their first priority. I may, however, get the vaccination at some time in the future. If this is what you call being selfish, then, to me, getting the vaccine now is somewhat less than intelligent, and that is said diplomatically.
jswirs
03-09-2021, 06:13 AM
If you are healthy the chances of you dying from Covid-19 are lower with the highest being those over 65. If you are over 75, healthy or not your chances of dying from it are one in ten.
I know six people personally who have had Covid. Three are fully recovered, two after being hospitalized, one in intensive care.
The other three have died from Covid 19. Two were over 75 and one was 69 and appeared healthy. I saw him riding his bike a lot.
You are equating age with health. There are many folks who, at the age of, for example, 75, have health which exceeds that of someone who is 55. No, I do not believe any statics which you may reply with, because they are not based on complete facts.
Love2Swim
03-09-2021, 06:17 AM
I have a relative who is a microbiologist and researcher who has a patent pending for a vaccine, so he is very familiar with the testing procedures and requirements for FDA approval. He and his wife have been vaccinated against Covid, and they trust the science that went into that vaccine development. But this is what we know - the mRNA vaccines like the Covid vaccine have been studied for a long time before this pandemic for treatment of other issues like HIV, Zika and flu.And the makeup of the vaccine allows scientists to design the mRNA in a way so it does not stay in the cell longer than needed to generate immunity. While concern about long term effects is legitimate, people need to be aware of the misinformation out there. The anti-vaccine industry is very organized and is trying to move people to extreme positions about vaccines using conspiracy theories and false narratives. In some cases these groups simply do not believe in science, and in other cases, they hope to profit by selling other products to "protect" against Covid. In any event, respected scientists are saying that the Covid vaccines would not be expected to cause long term side effects. http://https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/video/what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/video/what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccine)
Tmarkwald
03-09-2021, 06:27 AM
Not much is ever said about the millions and millions worldwide who have not received their shots and have been living life without incident also.
yes, the silent majority. I think the count is over 150 Million vaccinated. No deaths due to the vaccine itself that I can find.
yet the vocal minority will pop up and voice doom and gloom over the vaccine.
Tmarkwald
03-09-2021, 06:35 AM
To me it seems morally reprehensible to not get the vaccine, and be a person who endangers the health of others, which is what happens when people don't get vaccinated, and become asymptomatic carriers. Unless one has a valid excuse - for example too frail to deal with any side effects of the shot, or allergic, pregnant, etc., I don't see any excuse for not getting vaccinated. Looking at the practical side, one's actions may be limited in the future without having a vaccination card - travel to certain countries may be curtailed, ability to participate in certain group activities. In the future, it may be required for children to attend school, similiar to other vaccines like polio.
yes: Once COVID vaccines are available, states could elect to require that people who live within that state be vaccinated.
source: Can COVID-19 Vaccines Be Mandatory in the U.S. and Who Decides? - COVID-19 - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/can-covid-19-vaccines-be-mandatory-in-the-u-s-and-who-decides.html)
coffeebean
03-09-2021, 06:38 AM
What is of most value to all of us? The answer is simple, our health. I refuse to be vaccinated with some sort of insufficiently tested substance, which, from what I hear, will never leave your body, and could, at some time in the future, be detrimental to our health. Should I contract Covid, I will most likely survive with no after effects. I do not trust our government, or others who are in some position of power, because many times they have their own agenda which is their first priority. I may, however, get the vaccination at some time in the future. If this is what you call being selfish, then, to me, getting the vaccine now is somewhat less than intelligent, and that is said diplomatically.
NOT TRUE. This is not what I have read in many articles about the mRNA vaccines. Read about debunked falsehoods here......
Fact check: Genetic materials from mRNA vaccines do not multiply in your body forever | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-genetic/fact-check-genetic-materials-from-mrna-vaccines-do-not-multiply-in-your-body-forever-idUSKBN29I30V)
Love2Swim
03-09-2021, 07:09 AM
yes: Once COVID vaccines are available, states could elect to require that people who live within that state be vaccinated.
source: Can COVID-19 Vaccines Be Mandatory in the U.S. and Who Decides? - COVID-19 - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/can-covid-19-vaccines-be-mandatory-in-the-u-s-and-who-decides.html)
Interesting to see the Supreme Court's reasoning in regards to individual freedoms vs. the common good. In response to the argument about this individual liberty interest, the court said that sometimes individual interests might have to yield to state laws that endeavour to protect the health of everybody—the “common good.” The court said: “The rights of the individual may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint to be enforced by reasonable regulations as the safety of the general public may demand.”
Tmarkwald
03-09-2021, 07:37 AM
Interesting to see the Supreme Court's reasoning in regards to individual freedoms vs. the common good. In response to the argument about this individual liberty interest, the court said that sometimes individual interests might have to yield to state laws that endeavour to protect the health of everybody—the “common good.” The court said: “The rights of the individual may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint to be enforced by reasonable regulations as the safety of the general public may demand.”
The Covid vaccine is an incredibly polarizing topic. Possibly because of the MRNA method of delivery, which has only been around for 10 years or so, but not understood.
I'm confident every one of us had a plethora of mandatory vaccinations just to attend school, and veterans had plenty more when entering service. But, viruses that were killing millions have been beaten back because of those vaccines are now almost a distant memory.
jimjamuser
03-11-2021, 07:25 PM
I have a relative who is a microbiologist and researcher who has a patent pending for a vaccine, so he is very familiar with the testing procedures and requirements for FDA approval. He and his wife have been vaccinated against Covid, and they trust the science that went into that vaccine development. But this is what we know - the mRNA vaccines like the Covid vaccine have been studied for a long time before this pandemic for treatment of other issues like HIV, Zika and flu.And the makeup of the vaccine allows scientists to design the mRNA in a way so it does not stay in the cell longer than needed to generate immunity. While concern about long term effects is legitimate, people need to be aware of the misinformation out there. The anti-vaccine industry is very organized and is trying to move people to extreme positions about vaccines using conspiracy theories and false narratives. In some cases these groups simply do not believe in science, and in other cases, they hope to profit by selling other products to "protect" against Covid. In any event, respected scientists are saying that the Covid vaccines would not be expected to cause long term side effects. http://https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/video/what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccine (https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/video/what-are-the-long-term-side-effects-of-covid-19-vaccine)
As to " the anti-vaccine industry is well organized and trying to move people to extreme positions" - Russian hackers are doing the same thing - for the purpose of sowing doubt and create wedges between US groups and parties.
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