I miss the Old Katie Belles

[justjim]

I miss the “Old Katie Belles”. When we had guests we always went there for a meal and the entertainment. Katie Belles was for residents and their guests only. It was important to have a place like that in The Villages IMHO. Yes, it needed some fresh paint and makeover but the concept was “right on”. Many people I know felt it was a special place for just us, the residents, of The Villages. Unfortunately it’s gone and like a fast moving stream the flow that passes by will never pass again. I usually embrace change but not this one.

[Bucco]

I miss the “Old Katie Belles”. When we had guests we always went there for a meal and the entertainment. Katie Belles was for residents and their guests only. It was important to have a place like that in The Villages IMHO. Yes, it needed some fresh paint and makeover but the concept was “right on”. Many people I know felt it was a special place for just us, the residents, of The Villages. Unfortunately it’s gone and like a fast moving stream the flow that passes by will never pass again. I usually embrace change but not this one.

I totally agree. I have fond memories of Katie Belles.

Just did not make it economically for a number of reasons.

But, it was truly special.

Actually, miss Hacienda Hills Country Club as well, was the only place with a “dress code” (coat and tie for gentlemen)

[manaboutown]

I loved it!

[kaydee]

So many of the favorites have been taken away & personally, those favorites could have & should have been kept in operation. I feel fortunate to have lived here long enough to have many great memories. Unfortunately the higher ups call the shots & most of the time the residents have no say!

[JohnN]

I miss Katie Bell's too.

And $2 Tuesdays at Church on the Square too. We saw some really good entertainment there.

Somehow, it's all about $$$$, all the time.
We won't even go into tearing down rec centers to build apartments

[dewilson58]

What you miss were not profitable.
No entitlements.

[rustyp]

What you miss were not profitable.
No entitlements.

In my mind this is a myth that keeps getting perpetuated. Anyone have proof from the Developers themselves that red ink drove closure ? Can you point to the "evening with the developer" or the Villages Sun article that declared this. If this were true how is it that any restaurant in The Square can make money when the Developers who carry the least amount of overhead could not. I have a totally different theory why KB closed. Anyone else ?

[dewilson58]

In my mind this is a myth that keeps getting perpetuated. Anyone have proof from the Developers themselves that red ink drove closure ? Can you point to the "evening with the developer" or the Villages Sun article that declared this. If this were true how is it that any restaurant in The Square can make money when the Developers who carry the least amount of overhead could not. I have a totally different theory why KB closed. Anyone else ?
:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Yep, it was making money and TV decided to close it......"we don't want the cashflow".
Let's close it and get no cashflow.
Let's close it and invest millions to make apartments and HOPE we get our cash back.
Yep, just a myth.

[rustyp]

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:
Yep, it was making money and TV decided to close it......"we don't want the cashflow".
Let's close it and get no cashflow.
Let's close it and invest millions to make apartments and HOPE we get our cash back.
Yep, just a myth.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

FYI Cash flow and profit are not equivalent.
Profit is the revenue remaining after deducting business costs, while cash flow is the amount of money flowing in and out of a business at any given time.

[dewilson58]

[/SIZE]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: FYI Cash flow and profit are not equivalent.
Profit is the revenue remaining after deducting business costs, while cash flow is the amount of money flowing in and out of a business at any given time.
:bigbow:

[dadspet]

Please >> Bring back Katie Belles - It was unique and a real + for The Villages. Can't believe its gone and hasn't come back. Perhaps we need to form a protest march (right after my knee surgery and if I can fit it in between my other Dr apts ).

[Chi-Town]

I miss Cattle Baron. It was a go to restaurant for out of town company. Like
taking them to a private club.

[justjim]

What you miss were not profitable.
No entitlements.

As I remember, Katie Belles was totally remodeled ($$$$$$), opened to all, and then closed. You spend all that money, and close to build apartments? Wait, that was turned down by the city of Lady Lake, Anyway, Katie Belles was unique and The Villages marches on. So be it.

[John_W]

...

[Bucco]

Katie Belles had a problem.

So many coming, one or two drinks, and sit all night watching the performers.

Economically, a restaurant cannot survive like that

[alwann]

I miss Cattle Baron. It was a go to restaurant for out of town company. Like
taking them to a private club.

There's still a private club in The Villages. The Angler's Club. But you can't go there unless you are family, friends, associates or politically influential chums of the developer. I wonder if it is profitable. I doubt whether he cares.

[JSR22]

There's still a private club in The Villages. The Angler's Club. But you can't go there unless you are family, friends, associates or politically influential chums of the developer. I wonder if it is profitable. I doubt whether he cares.

I had dinner there and the food was excellent. A monthly fee to be a member.

[rustyp]

Katie Belles had a problem.

So many coming, one or two drinks, and sit all night watching the performers.

Economically, a restaurant cannot survive like that

I am not saying this didn't happen however if this was the real issue why would they simply not institute a minimum spend policy. Instead they closed down half of it, spent the money to revamp on the second floor of a senior citizen community and then use the same model ? It still has a stage, a dance floor, but more a restaurant than "saloon" . Again wouldn't minimum spend accomplish the same with twice space and capacity. KB's never lacked for drawing a crowd. Many nights there was a line to get in. The entertainment is/was the same performers as when the stage was downstairs. More than meets the eye here. Me thinks they were setting up for closure but had to deal with their own personal quilt of closing Harold's pride and joy named after his mother. I also believe H. Gary Morse would never allowed for the closure also.

Let's try this as a starting point:
- Didn't fit with the atmosphere/clientele they thought The Sharon was going to draw I.E. upscale dinning.
- Too many restaurants in The Square were competing for good wait staff. Thus The Developers were the competition of other businesses they were charging rent. All were beginning to lose.
- Lack of dependable / quality staffing was causing high turnaround and the drug trafficking started to increase.
- The Developers simply lost interest as they have with other items throughout the years (which is their right- it's their kingdom). The profit simply wasn't worth the headaches.

Other theories exist. BUT I don't fall for this it was because the patrons were drinking water. That's putting the blame on us and that's BS. We, the same patrons are still living here.

[alwann]

So, tell me. Can anybody join if the can afford the monthly fee?

[JSR22]

So, tell me. Can anybody join if the can afford the monthly fee?

You need to be invited by a Morse or a local business owner. I wish I could join the food and service were excellent. Interestinfact no prices on the menu.

[manaboutown]

The original KB's was a well designed club that was run right for a long time. I am aware that some people would spend time there sipping on a glass of water and literally buying nothing. If folks don't spend at a club it folds.

KB's reminded me of a club in my old home town where I spent a lot of time (and money). They had good house bands, ladies night a couple days a week and brought in some top bands. Men always paid a cover charge. The place opened at 5:00 p.m., ran a two for one happy hour until 7:00 p.m., and was always filled and so popular the owners eventually bought the land next door and built a new much larger club using the same floor plan but greatly expanded. They tore down the old building and used that land for parking. They maybe had two acres of parking at this point. This club was a success for fifty years.

This video shows the layout. While a latin band is playing in the video the Caravan East was primarily a country-western venue. Caravan East Night Club in Albuquerque, Features Live Music by Severoy Grupo Fuego on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/97300001)

The neighborhood changed over the years and became so rough the locals started calling it the "war zone". That is likely why they closed. It became unsafe to even drive in the neighborhood, especially at night.

[dewilson58]

Developers develop.


Once developed, if profitable developers tend to sell off and go onto the next project.
There are not many who want to be in the retail business, the bar business, the restaurant business..................mostly when (say) half of the population is season.


:icon_wink:

[Stu from NYC]

Katie Belles had a problem.

So many coming, one or two drinks, and sit all night watching the performers.

Economically, a restaurant cannot survive like that

They could have fixed that in two seconds flat. Institute a minimum that would allow them to make money.

[Number 10 GI]

There's still a private club in The Villages. The Angler's Club. But you can't go there unless you are family, friends, associates or politically influential chums of the developer. I wonder if it is profitable. I doubt whether he cares.

It's their money, their property and none of our business how they spend THEIR money. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Number 10 GI]

They could have fixed that in two seconds flat. Institute a minimum that would allow them to make money.

People who were too cheap to buy a meal and some drinks to fund the operation of that venue definitely would be too cheap to pay a cover charge. They took advantage of the situation to their detriment.

[Number 10 GI]

I am not saying this didn't happen however if this was the real issue why would they simply not institute a minimum spend policy. Instead they closed down half of it, spent the money to revamp on the second floor of a senior citizen community and then use the same model ? It still has a stage, a dance floor, but more a restaurant than "saloon" . Again wouldn't minimum spend accomplish the same with twice space and capacity. KB's never lacked for drawing a crowd. Many nights there was a line to get in. The entertainment is/was the same performers as when the stage was downstairs. More than meets the eye here. Me thinks they were setting up for closure but had to deal with their own personal quilt of closing Harold's pride and joy named after his mother. I also believe H. Gary Morse would never allowed for the closure also.

Let's try this as a starting point:
- Didn't fit with the atmosphere/clientele they thought The Sharon was going to draw I.E. upscale dinning.
- Too many restaurants in The Square were competing for good wait staff. Thus The Developers were the competition of other businesses they were charging rent. All were beginning to lose.
- Lack of dependable / quality staffing was causing high turnaround and the drug trafficking started to increase.
- The Developers simply lost interest as they have with other items throughout the years (which is their right- it's their kingdom). The profit simply wasn't worth the headaches.

Other theories exist. BUT I don't fall for this it was because the patrons were drinking water. That's putting the blame on us and that's BS. We, the same patrons are still living here.

Just like you said, its all theories (actually nothing but baseless guesses), nothing supported by fact. How many restaurants have you successfully operated?

[rustyp]

Just like you said, its all theories (actually nothing but baseless guesses), nothing supported by fact. How many restaurants have you successfully operated?

None - I had enough smarts to make money in a much easier way.

[rustyp]

People who were too cheap to buy a meal and some drinks to fund the operation of that venue definitely would be too cheap to pay a cover charge. They took advantage of the situation to their detriment.

Theory - Proof ?

[dewilson58]

People who were too cheap to buy a meal and some drinks to fund the operation of that venue definitely would be too cheap to pay a cover charge. They took advantage of the situation to their detriment.
Agree.
About the only place where minimum's work are country clubs.
(not many even work there)

They are a form of dues that creates volume for a food service operation to survive.

[rustyp]

They could have fixed that in two seconds flat. Institute a minimum that would allow them to make money.

Agree

Instead they fixed it by spending a boatload of money remodeling and downsizing but keeping true to the same old formula. Something wrong with this picture !

[Bogie Shooter]

the party is over song don meridth - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+party+is+over+song+don+meridth&docid=608020880726951082&mid=2EC276064094428A67B52EC276064094428A67B5&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)

[Number 10 GI]

Theory - Proof ?

Proof? The restaurant closed.

[Stu from NYC]

People who were too cheap to buy a meal and some drinks to fund the operation of that venue definitely would be too cheap to pay a cover charge. They took advantage of the situation to their detriment.

Why buy the meal and drinks when you can have a very inexpensive evening out.

Would have been very easy to experiment by putting in a minimum purchase but for some reason they were happy to let it fail.

[rustyp]

Proof? The restaurant closed.

Exactly - the same as my hypothesis which is not tied to the drinking water theory. But have you tested your null hypothesis theory. I have !

[Bucco]

Why buy the meal and drinks when you can have a very inexpensive evening out.

Would have been very easy to experiment by putting in a minimum purchase but for some reason they were happy to let it fail.

Stop assuming.

They did, as i recall, insist on patrons buying seperate tickets for the shows, and for a bit of time had a minimum. Did not work.

And keep in mind this is all against the backdrop of converting The Church on the Square into a theater right across the street at the same time. Also, I believe this may have been about the time they first purchased the land south of 466 which opened the flood gates for going south.

What you are saying was "easy" ignores a lot of happenings in the same time frame, along with ignoring the lack of customers.

But, they did experiment....did not work

[rustyp]

I lived within walking distance of KB's for 5 plus years. I have many hours logged into KB's over the years. What many are claiming as the downfall (the place was full of water drinkers) is simply not true in my live experience. The majority of the time the kitchen staff could not keep up with demand. Are your claims first hand or hearsay ?

[mike1946]

Anyone else remember the Chula Vista Rec Centre Sunday Brunch and the Silver Lake Club ?? We've been in TV since 1999 - 3 years renting then bought in CC Hills and boy Oh boy have we lost some stuff ..I also loved the Brewery in SS ...the 5 oz sampler was great - Main St. Bistro was also a fun place to go !! the list goes on !! stand by for more closures and more apartments.

[hav7979]

Why buy the meal and drinks when you can have a very inexpensive evening out.

Would have been very easy to experiment by putting in a minimum purchase but for some reason they were happy to let it fail.

We went to the new Mac's comedy club first night at Sumter. They had a ticket price and a minimum purchase. The food was marginal. Service was worse. BUT the comedy was 5 Star's all the way.

This was no substitute for KB

[Bucco]

Anyone else remember the Chula Vista Rec Centre Sunday Brunch and the Silver Lake Club ?? We've been in TV since 1999 - 3 years renting then bought in CC Hills and boy Oh boy have we lost some stuff ..I also loved the Brewery in SS ...the 5 oz sampler was great - Main St. Bistro was also a fun place to go !! the list goes on !! stand by for more closures and more apartments.

The Spanish Springs Brewery was a definitive thumbs up.

Then make sure you stop at the Bichara Bakery.

[Bogie Shooter]

Anyone else remember the Chula Vista Rec Centre Sunday Brunch and the Silver Lake Club ?? We've been in TV since 1999 - 3 years renting then bought in CC Hills and boy Oh boy have we lost some stuff ..I also loved the Brewery in SS ...the 5 oz sampler was great - Main St. Bistro was also a fun place to go !! the list goes on !! stand by for more closures and more apartments.

And more new stuff!

[LG999]

I miss KB too. Always felt special. I loved the singing servers.

[Villages Kahuna]

Lots of people miss Katie Belle’s and the very good restaurant. I’m guessing that the Developer had plans to convert that space to apartments for a long time and they didn’t want to be in the restaurant business. A definite “take away” from residents, particularly those of us who have been here awhile.

[Aviator1211]

Has anyone approached the developer with a proposal to support *some* apartments downtown in exchange for restoring the *original* KB? I would volunteer to teach swing dance lessons!

[rustyp]

Approach ? Who ? How ? Anyone remember when we were sent the resident's survey from the developers once per year and the results were actually tallied up and published ? Didn't that turn into a suggestion box at the mail stations run by residents not the developer. Did I not just read those suggestions boxes have now been removed ? Slowly I turn, inch by inch, step by step.

[tophcfa]

More than KB’s, I miss actually going into the Clubhouse at Hacienda Hills when golfing there. When golfing at a Championship course it is nice to be able to check in at a clubhouse, with nice restrooms and golfing accessories available, rather than going to a starter shack like your playing an executive course. I also miss being able to go into the bar to have a couple beers with fellow golfers after the round. At least golfers don’t YET have to look at a monstrosity multi story rental apartment complex : (

[OhioBuckeye]

I agree with all or most of the comments. But we all know TV are going to make money the way they think they can make money. I think most people & like me when I came to TV I was fascinated with everything there was to do, didn’t know anything about some of the things that closed down. So I think the Morse’s or TV Board that’s made millions of dollars or maybe billions of dollars know more about what makes money & what doesn’t! So just relax & go with flow because nobody is held prisoner in TV.

[stebooo]

Me too The problem was that people went there and just didn't spend enough money or sold the developer reports. I'm not so sure that I doubt that that's true. Sure do miss it and now of course hacienda aloha hacienda might have been great way back in its day but in recent decades it was very outdated poor service bad owners. Not that any of that means it should have been torn down it just was very ill-managed. Now of course we know the real reason why it went to Helena handbasket as we wait to see the new development being made

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I miss the “Old Katie Belles”. When we had guests we always went there for a meal and the entertainment. Katie Belles was for residents and their guests only. It was important to have a place like that in The Villages IMHO. Yes, it needed some fresh paint and makeover but the concept was “right on”. Many people I know felt it was a special place for just us, the residents, of The Villages. Unfortunately it’s gone and like a fast moving stream the flow that passes by will never pass again. I usually embrace change but not this one.

I don't miss it at all. The food was mediocre at best and as far as being for residents and guests only, that must have been a joke. I was never asked to show my ID. It was open to anyone that had money.

[Topspinmo]

I miss La Hacienda tennis courts. But, beings I don’t own it I have no say so. I imagine KB’s was loosing money or breaking even at best. Now, if I owned business loosing or breaking even leaves bad taste in my mouth. Time for chain.

[jimjamuser]

Katie Belles had a problem.

So many coming, one or two drinks, and sit all night watching the performers.

Economically, a restaurant cannot survive like that
The individual profit center of Katie Belles might NOT make a profit, but since the residents liked it and took guests there and had a GOOD time, it had PR value. If that brought in NEW residents to buy into TV Land, then it had value to the Developers. Maybe they should have considered KB a "loss leader" and made the profits up in larger sales. How can anyone put a price on how much sales business was LOST by NOT having a Katie Belles? Think about it? I would guess that nearby restaurants put pressure on the developers to LOSE KB! Lots of good ideas go by the wayside due to shortsightedness. US businesses typically pick short-term profits over long-term goals.

[Big O]

I don't miss it at all. The food was mediocre at best and as far as being for residents and guests only, that must have been a joke. I was never asked to show my ID. It was open to anyone that had money.

How quickly we forget. Moved here on 2013 and all we heard was how bad the food was as was the service. It was too crowded. It was too noisy. Funny how now that it's closed we forget all that.

[JSR22]

I thought the downstairs Katie Belle's was awful. I was never asked for a Village ID when I went to KB or the Cattle Baron. I nver felt it was clean especially the restrooms.

[Stu from NYC]

The individual profit center of Katie Belles might NOT make a profit, but since the residents liked it and took guests there and had a GOOD time, it had PR value. If that brought in NEW residents to buy into TV Land, then it had value to the Developers. Maybe they should have considered KB a "loss leader" and made the profits up in larger sales. How can anyone put a price on how much sales business was LOST by NOT having a Katie Belles? Think about it? I would guess that nearby restaurants put pressure on the developers to LOSE KB! Lots of good ideas go by the wayside due to shortsightedness. US businesses typically pick short-term profits over long-term goals.

I do not think the developers would have closed KB due to pressure from nearby restaurants. Appears it is their way or the highway.

[manaboutown]

My feeling is that it was put there and maintained as a sales tool regardless of profit or the lack thereof. As the new development had moved so far south KB's was not all that convenient to those buying new homes, the developer's target market. Also it may not have been appealing to the younger demographic as it was to old geezers like me, I don't really know.

The Cattleman restaurant was mediocre at best, but it and the drinks were cheap. I remember picking up my first mug of beer and expecting a heavy glass mug, almost throwing the beer into my face as the lightweight plastic mug surprised me. KB's had a road house feel to it I enjoyed immensely.

[bpascani]

you and me!! We came here on LifeStyle a few years before we rented for a year, to take our time buying. Our 1st guests we took to Katie B, not realizing it had changed. It was horrible. I wish the original one would come back. Everyone.....guests and staff, seemed to love it!

[jimjamuser]

Approach ? Who ? How ? Anyone remember when we were sent the resident's survey from the developers once per year and the results were actually tallied up and published ? Didn't that turn into a suggestion box at the mail stations run by residents not the developer. Did I not just read those suggestions boxes have now been removed ? Slowly I turn, inch by inch, step by step.
I wondered myself what happened to the resident surveys.

[jimjamuser]

I agree with all or most of the comments. But we all know TV are going to make money the way they think they can make money. I think most people & like me when I came to TV I was fascinated with everything there was to do, didn’t know anything about some of the things that closed down. So I think the Morse’s or TV Board that’s made millions of dollars or maybe billions of dollars know more about what makes money & what doesn’t! So just relax & go with flow because nobody is held prisoner in TV.
Nothing wrong with some constructive criticism for the powers that be in TV Land - TV Land is nice, but it is far from perfect. We vote with our dollars for the better parts of the experience. Dollar totals can not be completely ignored.

[jimjamuser]

I don't miss it at all. The food was mediocre at best and as far as being for residents and guests only, that must have been a joke. I was never asked to show my ID. It was open to anyone that had money.
I liked Katie Belles and I remember showing my ID card every time. That's why the line backed up.

[rustyp]

Redirection - the real issue is we old timers were sold KB's as if it were an amenity. They gave you KB dollars as part of the lifestyle visit. One of the first stops by the salesperson was "residents only private club with free entertainment". They proudly disclosed The Villages founder Harold Schwartz named the club after his mother. That and the OB waterfalls pool were the flagships every salesperson was armed with. And for the ones that are going to say next that was not in writing, I ask you do you have anything in your deed that says you will have "free" executive golf for life ?

[jimjamuser]

you and me!! We came here on LifeStyle a few years before we rented for a year, to take our time buying. Our 1st guests we took to Katie B, not realizing it had changed. It was horrible. I wish the original one would come back. Everyone.....guests and staff, seemed to love it!
Everyone that I knew seemed to love it. They had cheap drinks. I did NOT go there for the food! Last I heard, restaurants make most of their profits on the drinks, not the food.

[Kenswing]

Nothing wrong with some constructive criticism for the powers that be in TV Land - TV Land is nice, but it is far from perfect. We vote with our dollars for the better parts of the experience. Dollar totals can not be completely ignored.
Do you honestly think that any criticism you aim toward the Developer on this board even has a remote possibility of being seen by the Developer? :1rotfl:

[Nucky]

Do you honestly think that any criticism you aim toward the Developer on this board even has a remote possibility of being seen by the Developer? :1rotfl:

It is possible. I'm reading it now. :1rotfl::1rotfl::ohdear:

[Stu from NYC]

Do you honestly think that any criticism you aim toward the Developer on this board even has a remote possibility of being seen by the Developer? :1rotfl:

No but it does allow me to get something off my chest.

[Kenswing]

No but it does allow me to get something off my chest.

At 25 posts a day you must have a lot to get off your chest. :1rotfl:

[Jayhawk]

If everyone who is ****ed at Katie Belle's closing ever WENT to Katie Belle's and spent a few $, it never would have closed.

[Jayhawk]

At 25 posts a day you must have a lot to get off your chest. :1rotfl:

:bigbow:

[mamamia.thebern@gmail.com]

We bought in the Villages because we enjoyed dancing inside away from the heat and fine dining we moved when they took Katy Belles away as they will soon take all promises away as they get to big for britches

[Stu from NYC]

At 25 posts a day you must have a lot to get off your chest. :1rotfl:

Have a lot of wisdom to impart to some of the posters here.:bigbow:

BTW believe my average is only 12 but will work on it for you

[JSR22]

We bought in the Villages because we enjoyed dancing inside away from the heat and fine dining we moved when they took Katy Belles away as they will soon take all promises away as they get to big for britches

Downstairs Katie Belle's had nothing to do with fine dining.

[raynan]

The original Katie Belle's (downstairs) was unique. We always had to show our ID's and I agree that the people that bought their mug of beer hogged their table for the night. I wish they would reinstitute Katie Belle's with the original western decor, charge a minimum or a 2 hr time limit per table and put it in Brownwood at the corner opposite Blue Fin and Prima which has been sitting there empty for years. It really would fit in with the ambiance of Paddock Sq. OR a restaurant with a piano bar. It's a real shame seeing that corner with nothing on it for so long.

[Stu from NYC]

The original Katie Belle's (downstairs) was unique. We always had to show our ID's and I agree that the people that bought their mug of beer hogged their table for the night. I wish they would reinstitute Katie Belle's with the original western decor, charge a minimum or a 2 hr time limit per table and put it in Brownwood at the corner opposite Blue Fin and Prima which has been sitting there empty for years. It really would fit in with the ambiance of Paddock Sq. OR a restaurant with a piano bar. It's a real shame seeing that corner with nothing on it for so long.

We would love to see a restaurant with a piano bar. We have grown to love them during cruising and sure miss them.

[CWGUY]

We bought in the Villages because we enjoyed dancing inside away from the heat and fine dining we moved when they took Katy Belles away as they will soon take all promises away as they get to big for britches

:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl: