America's Path to Permanent War

[Guest]

I'd like to change the subject from the regular threads blaming or defending the administration, and concentrate on the subject which distresses me most; The War.

I'd like to think after living a long time, trying to listen and read a lot, I could figure out at least the major stuff. But until now, I haven't been able to finally decide whether we should continue, or just stop our active military efforts, especially in Afghanistan.

I've previously described the decision to invade Iraq as "perhaps the worst decision ever made by a US President". Such an extreme statement seems to be more a part of conventional wisdom with each passing year. The cost of war, now beginning it's tenth year, has been profound; it is the major component of our national budget deficit. But that is nothing compared to the thousands lost, thousands horribly wounded and thousands suffering from those losses.

What have we learned from recent history? Can terrorism be defeated by drones and surges, or do those whose lives are disrupted by our armed forces vow to do anything - even kill themselves - to destroy us in return? Have we actually created more terrorists than we have defeated?

Andrew Bacevich has finally convinced me. I didn't know who he was but was intrigued to learn that he was a graduate of West Point, taught there, got a doctorate from Princeton, and was a fast-track Army officer. This, by the way, is an identical biography to that of David Petraeus, five years younger. Bacevich began to lose his belief in the 'we can defeat the enemy' philosophy with the collapse of the Soviet Union and especially after personally witnessing the fall of the Berlin Wall. His book, "America's Path to Permanent War", is a powerful argument to end what we are doing and take a whole new course.

I admire what the Obama administration has done to attempt to fix the huge domestic problems we are facing, but I now believe it is a tragic mistake to continue the war in Afghanistan.

[Guest]

I'd like to change the subject from the regular threads blaming or defending the administration, and concentrate on the subject which distresses me most; The War.

I'd like to think after living a long time, trying to listen and read a lot, I could figure out at least the major stuff. But until now, I haven't been able to finally decide whether we should continue, or just stop our active military efforts, especially in Afghanistan.

I've previously described the decision to invade Iraq as "perhaps the worst decision ever made by a US President". Such an extreme statement seems to be more a part of conventional wisdom with each passing year. The cost of war, now beginning it's tenth year, has been profound; it is the major component of our national budget deficit. But that is nothing compared to the thousands lost, thousands horribly wounded and thousands suffering from those losses.

What have we learned from recent history? Can terrorism be defeated by drones and surges, or do those whose lives are disrupted by our armed forces vow to do anything - even kill themselves - to destroy us in return? Have we actually created more terrorists than we have defeated?

Andrew Bacevich has finally convinced me. I didn't know who he was but was intrigued to learn that he was a graduate of West Point, taught there, got a doctorate from Princeton, and was a fast-track Army officer. This, by the way, is an identical biography to that of David Petraeus, five years younger. Bacevich began to lose his belief in the 'we can defeat the enemy' philosophy with the collapse of the Soviet Union and especially after personally witnessing the fall of the Berlin Wall. His book, "America's Path to Permanent War", is a powerful argument to end what we are doing and take a whole new course.

I admire what the Obama administration has done to attempt to fix the huge domestic problems we are facing, but I now believe it is a tragic mistake to continue the war in Afghanistan.

First of all, I agree with you generally, however you had the necessity to add things that were not a "change of subject". You admire what this administration has done which means you support the backroom deals, the payoffs, the constant politics, the total lack of any leadership, the lack of understanding of the american people.

I agree, in hindsight, that Iraq was a mistake but not nearly as monumental as you do. Also, given even the possiblity that there were WMD's available to a man who was already shooting at our planes would have made it credible to topple the regime.

But, your main topic was Afghanistan, and while I share your frustration, I know that Bacevich supports replacing our war efforts with more negotiations and my frustration is that WITH WHOM do we negotiate. We did drive the Taliban out once, and in the matter of Afghanistan, I am not sure anymore what the mission is. But, if we leave that region it will for sure fall into hands who will be very close to nuclear weapons and not distracted by our presence. That combination scares me !!

Our world is so different.....if you read the NYTIMES today, the administration won a court case concerning rights and privacy. The administration has even gone further than the previous administration with secrecy...and actually this is from that article..."Its counterterrorism programs have in some ways departed from the expectations of change fostered by President Obama’s campaign rhetoric, which was often sharply critical of former President George W. Bush’s approach.

Among other policies, the Obama national security team has also authorized the C.I.A. to try to kill a United States citizen suspected of terrorism ties, blocked efforts by detainees in Afghanistan to bring habeas corpus lawsuits challenging the basis for their imprisonment without trial, and continued the C.I.A.’s so-called extraordinary rendition program of prisoner transfers — though the administration has forbidden torture and says it seeks assurances from other countries that detainees will not be mistreated.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/us/09secrets.html?_r=1&ref=politics

Point is, again this administration does things that previously were front page news and cause for outrage !

I have got to support him in this venture in Afghanistan though simply because we must not allow nuclear weapons to become available to this monsters and should we leave that area, it will be inevitable. I would support Bacevich if I knew with whom we could have reasonable discussions that would lead to some end.

I have not read his book but your post will cause me to do just that.


PS....just want to make clear that the point about the world changing is due to I WANT to agree with you and Bacevich, but as someone who has done a little bit of negotiations, I KNOW that BOTH parties have to want a resolution ! Plus I just dont get WHO you negotiate with. I dont write as well as you do and thus I hope I am making the point I hope to make

[Guest]

Ijusluvit,

First I agree with you that the latest invasion of Iraq was a mistake, a mistake that incredibly compounded by our deBathevacation (sp?) of Iraq combined with the destruction of the Republican Guard. Clearly the National leaders had to go, but not the mayor, police force and utility management from every little town. Likewise the Republican Guard needed to be stripped of field grade officers and under US direction could have quickly brought stability eliminating Al Qaeda, the Mahdi Army and the Shiite – Sunni violence. We needed the NCOs’ but did not need the Generals. As we have painfully discovered, we needed the police and the armed forces. We have spent far too much blood, money and ability to confront rouge nations since the invasion.

This is unfortunately a repeat of a much larger mistake – the decision by the Kennedy/Johnson administrations to pour over 500,000 of our fighting force into Vietnam without a strategy for winning, but with a loss of more than ten times the number we have lost in Iraq. There is another wonderful book I can recommend to you. It is a book by Gen Maxwell Taylor called, “The Uncertain Trumpet”. It is an analysis of how we lost in Vietnam – the title tells the story. Once again, in the Iraq and Afghanistan war we are sounding an ‘uncertain trumpet’. We are caught with a tar baby. It does not matter what we do, so long as we do not do it as a nation united, we are doomed to lose.

Both of these pale by comparison to our greatest mistake of the 20th century – failing to support the Shah when Iran faced an uprising from fundamentalist Islam. We did not need to send troops or weapons. All we needed to do was assure our military’s counterparts in the Iranian Armed Forces that we supported the Shah. They would have taken it from there. Instead we advised them to do nothing and, unfortunately, they listened to us. A theocracy headed by the Allatolah Khomeini. Equality of women went out the window followed shortly by the occupation of the US Embassy. Carter continued to twiddle his thumbs rather than accept it as what it was – a declaration of war upon the United States.

Growing out of this failure has been Hamas, the support of terrorist groups around the world by Iran through Hamas, the killing of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Iran/Iraq war, the invasion of Kuwait, the need for our involvement in Afghanistan and the specter of Iranian weapons. I could go on for many paragraphs on this subject, but I will not. We gave away the recognition of the United States to be a nation with strong values and strong commitment to our friends to once again portray to the world that we were a nation with an uncertain trumpet. Jimmy Carter is the father of Islamic extremism and may well prove to be the man most responsible for the triumph of radical Islam over the Western World.

[Guest]

war is not the appropriate term as I am old fashioned i.e. when one is in a war, voluntarily or other wise, one sets out to win.
That is my personal view of it.
Any war(s) we are involved in for what ever reason are now too politically motivated/guided/influenced.

It is so obvious isn't it. When the most powerful nation on earth takes on a bunch of dis organized hooligans with stupid rules of engagement that endanger our troops lives, preventing them from "winning"....the objective of course is not winning.

We all know what happens when the goal becomes to please everybody and upset as few as possible...the goal is not achievable.

As I am not a politician and I totally dislike political actions especially those geared by political correctness. I still subscribe to the age old standard of right or wrong.

Politicians do not.
Examples? We are not winning the war(s). We do not enforce immigration laws.

btk