Vaccine "Passports"?

[coffeebean]

I don’t understand this. If I have covid and wear a mask, you don’t have covid and don’t wear a mask is my mask protecting you? If this is true does this mean if I have covid and don’t wear a mask and you don’t have covid and wear a mask the mask is NOT protecting you? How is the mask only keeping covid inside mask but it allows covid to enter a mask? Are these masks one-way?

Yes. Your mask is protecting others from your Covid germs. Your mask acts as source control. Just wondering...........where have you been this past year??????????

[jamorela]

Just wondering if Epinephrine was administered to you. Sorry you are suffering with this adverse reaction.

It was not. They wanted to give me a shot of something but I would have to be transported to the hospital. I declined.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Somehow you are trying to represent the governor’s position against a vaccine passport as more government interference as opposed to less. That is the spin I am referring to. I did not comment on the pros or cons of a vaccine passport, just on your assertion that the governor’s stance is somehow more government regulation...

OK, thanks for the clarification. The way I see it, and it's just my opinion, the act of DeSantis enacting any kind of law encroaching on anyone's or any business' freedom for any reason is an act of government interference.

But it's sometimes necessary to do so. Take your pick - does regulation such as we're discussing infringe on a person or on a business? Doesn't matter. Government intervention is government intervention and it's one of the things that unites conservatives and liberals even though conservatives love to hate such intervention.

To your point, it's hard to assess if DeSantis' position is "more" or "less" intervention than something else, but it's an interesting question to ponder. The point is it's intervention. Period. And as someone else said here, the conservative guiding principle should be keep DeSantis out of it and let the free market decide.

Your mileage, of course, may vary. (I wonder if the young'uns even know what that means.)

[coffeebean]

Biden is now calling on Governors to re-instate or start a "mask mandate"...

So yeah, he want's us to HAVE to wear masks... For how long? No one knows...

If our previous administration had this stance on masks, America would not have had nearly the amount of deaths with Covid that we have had. This is what Deborah Birx stated in an interview I watched on CNN. Covid experts were interviewed. Very enlightening BTW. Dr. Birx said many deaths beyond the first surge of 100,000 deaths could have been mitigated. She seemed fractured as she divulged that information.

[golfing eagles]

It was not. They wanted to give me a shot of something but I would have to be transported to the hospital. I declined.

Most likely diphenhydramine and methylprednisolone

[BettyInFL]

I would have to agree. I've had Covid (March 2020), I've had the vaccines. Why do I have to continued to be punished? If YOU still feel vulnerable, stay home, mask up, or wear a hazmat suit. Up to you. Not MY problem.

I don't read anywhere in the constitution about a right to 'feel' safe.

[golfing eagles]

I do not agree with you or our governor. Public Health is at the helm of these vaccine passports for a disease that has caused a 100 year global pandemic. Enough is enough with this talk about showing proof of vaccination is infringement on our freedoms. Hogwash!

All my opinion, of course.

I have no problem with "showing". I have a huge problem with making a piece of paper the requirement for travel, dining, stadiums, etc. It has been pointed out that such a system is not "perfect". The problem is that it is so far from "perfect" as to be useless.

[Pat2015]

Is this a serious post? The vaccine is free and there’s nothing racist about it!

[coffeebean]

Today vaccination passport Tomorrow passport to leave your home. Too much government control.

A bit too dramatic. Don'tcha think?

[Lindsyburnsy]

We have to prove certain vaccinations to get children admitted into schools and some colleges, so I'm not sure what the big deal is. Besides, if we want to travel abroad, the other countries may require something to prove COVID 19 Vaccination.


I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal to ban vaccine passports. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing, and as such, DeSantis is in favor of imposing government regulation.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)

[coffeebean]

500K people died "with" Covid, not "due to" Covid...

But......how many of those people who died with Covid would still be alive today? Think about it. I have.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I would have to agree. I've had Covid (March 2020), I've had the vaccines. Why do I have to continued to be punished? If YOU still feel vulnerable, stay home, mask up, or wear a hazmat suit. Up to you. Not MY problem.

I don't read anywhere in the constitution about a right to 'feel' safe.

How does the airport know this? How do they know that you, of all the hundreds of thousands of people trying to catch a plane that day, are the ONE person not wearing a mask, has had COVID and had the vaccine? How do they know that ALL the other passengers in the airport are safe from you? How do they know that you are NOT the next Typhoid Mary?

Answer: some kind of written certified documentation. Such as, hm, oh I don't know - a passport with a stamp on a page showing the date and type of vaccine you had, maybe.

[coffeebean]

Great point but the facts are a little lacking.

Let us use CDC’s own numbers back in 8/2020. It had been reported that about 165,000 people in the USA expired from COVID-19. CDC admitted that the tabulation criteria were wrong and only about 6% of those were C-19 deaths. The remainder were folks who died and the pathogen was found in their blood. So the number was actually less than 10,000.
Now coupled that with testing that had up to 40% false positives and if further reduces the number. Don’t believe it? Well a week after the inauguration the CDC and the WHO recommended changes in the testing to reduce the number of false positives in the interest of improved accuracy.
You don’t hear much of that in the mass media do you?

You see they are using numbers from an inaccurate testing system and they purposely utilize the wrong words. They should be using “died WITH C-19 in their system” NOT “died FROM C-19”. There is a difference and they know it.
EVEN WITH THE BAD TESTS, 99% of those who contract it, recover, conclusion, we surrendered our freedom, our rights and our economy for something with less than 1% fatality rate AND that is IF you get this 5% contagion pathogen.

The Office of Management & Budget has investigated the CDC reporting anc found ghat they created their own reporting system for C-19 which is a violation of at least two legislative acts and this is why the CDC since late last year has been revising the numbers. But still the media is not covering those releases.
I have a difficult time buying what you say. What is your response to our overwhelmed health care system in parts of our country? What about those refrigerated trucks that were used as makeshift morgues because morgues had no room? What about the on site make shift hospitals that were popping up in ramp garages and such? These scenarios have NEVER occurred in our lifetimes. I don't give a flying fig for the numbers, the stats and the graphs. They are all skewed and do not have a common denominator for reporting. I saw with my own eyes our health care systems overwhelmed. That was real to me.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I never said they were unsafe or implied anything I simply corrected the statement that the vaccines are FDA approved, as they are not and that is not “nonsense!”

From the FDA website:
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has authorized three COVID-19 vaccines for emergency use. The vaccines are:

Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine
Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine
Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine (Johnson & Johnson)
Emergency use authorization (EUA) allows these vaccines to be distributed in the U.S. Learn more about EUAs for COVID-19 vaccines from the FDA’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER).

Your accusation that the FDA hasn't approved the vaccines IS, in fact, nonsense.

Learn More About COVID-19 Vaccines From the FDA | FDA (https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/learn-more-about-covid-19-vaccines-fda)

[vinnytalk]

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal to ban vaccine passports. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing, and as such, DeSantis is in favor of imposing government regulation.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports (https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-governor-ron-desantis-will-ban-vaccine-passports-2021-3)
I think the Governor was only trying to protect your personal info.
If the government wants a passport why didn't they collect the info when you got vaccined , the government gas no records and the gorm you filled out is only at a level and mist likely be discarded.
The only place you will need a vaccine passport is to travel outside the country , and that's good if other countries accept it.
FLA GOVERNOR IS doing one heck of a goid job.

[coffeebean]

Why would anyone support a person who has no regard for your health and well being.

DeSantis did put seniors first for the vaccine and I appreciate that. Hubby just read a headline to me just now that 80% of seniors in Sumter County have had at least one shot of the vaccine. We can thank DeSantis for that.

[coffeebean]

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

No one if forcing people to get vaccinated. It is your choice and only your choice. Where are you getting the idea that you are forced to be vaccinated?

[coffeebean]

Funny thing, that "freedom to choose whom they serve" notion. You must mean it's ok for a company to enforce a policy such as "we don't serve Englishmen here" or some such, right? That's the "freedom" you're referring to?

No shirt, no shoes, no service. Get it? Got it? Good!

[Tmarkwald]

O

Your mileage, of course, may vary. (I wonder if the young'uns even know what that means.)

Good Grief, I hope everyone reading this understands that!!

[Tmarkwald]

How does the airport know this? How do they know that you, of all the hundreds of thousands of people trying to catch a plane that day, are the ONE person not wearing a mask, has had COVID and had the vaccine? How do they know that ALL the other passengers in the airport are safe from you? How do they know that you are NOT the next Typhoid Mary?

Answer: some kind of written certified documentation. Such as, hm, oh I don't know - a passport with a stamp on a page showing the date and type of vaccine you had, maybe.


Brilliantly obvious!

[Tmarkwald]

Very true.....I was asked if I have allergies to any medication or vaccines before I was given the Moderna vaccine.

And when I got Pfizer, I was specifically asked about anaphylactic shock, rashes, and reactions to immunizations at all.

So, either somebody was not doing their job and asking the questions, or .........

They never asked me that at boot camp, though. I just got in line and got about 10 injections in a row and went to do pushups "to work it out of your system' LOL.

[JMintzer]

I don't understand the "wow"
Vaccine is basically proven to prevent, getting covid with hospital stay cost insurance thousands. So why should insurance company pay for the whiners that " don't wanna get it".
Unless you have a medical reason for not getting this vaccine that could prevent......well, I say, you are on your own sister.
Ps...same should go for smokers

I hope your weight and cholesterol levels are perfect, or else your "on your own" when you develop heart disease...

[JMintzer]

Oh, trust me...I see the problem, you are right, weight, drug use etc,etc.

But we can't expect our premiums to stay constant while we continue to stretch their bottom line, especially when it only takes a vaccine to avoid, which btw, they are paying for.

No, the federal government is paying for it...

[JMintzer]

Um, read my original post again, jmintzer. The GOP supports the ban on vaccine passports, thereby tolerating the government's interference in the freedom of offices, restaurants and businesses to decide whom they want to serve. This is contrary to conservative principles.

Sorry you misunderstood.

Sorry, but you're still contradicting yourself...

By banning the use of the vaccine passport, they are telling "offices, restaurants and businesses" that they cannot use that parameter to decide whom they serve...

[JMintzer]

See what I mean? (Yet?!?)

The government, via DeSantis, is trying to control businesses' freedom to choose whom they serve.

The government (without input from DeSantis) has already told business that they do not have that freedom...

[JMintzer]

Okay, but aren't restaurants, offices and businesses also free to determine who they wish to serve? Otherwise we're interfering with their freedom, which is a conservative no no.

Only in certain, very limited cases...

A certain baker in Colorado comes to mind...

[jaj523]

I recall having to take a yellow shot record with me whenever I travelled, which documented vaccines against certain illnesses, two of which were smallpox and yellow fever. Can't remember the others. Some countries required it, and others didn't. This wasn't that long ago--seventies and eighties. I don't think these yellow "passports" are still required, but don't know for sure. So such things are nothing new.

[Tmarkwald]

Very true.....I was asked if I have allergies to any medication or vaccines before I was given the Moderna vaccine.

I recall having to take a yellow shot record with me whenever I travelled, which documented vaccines against certain illnesses, two of which were smallpox and yellow fever. Can't remember the others. Some countries required it, and others didn't. This wasn't that long ago--seventies and eighties. I don't think these yellow "passports" are still required, but don't know for sure. So such things are nothing new.

I have mine right in my passport holder - they're made the exact size as the passport so you keep them together.

And, yes, the yellow passport sized vaccine record is checked - especially when going to the middle east.

[JMintzer]

Flu about 60,000 a year since 2010. Not saying that Covid is not a huge pandemic, but keep to the facts as reported by CDC. Also keep in mind that every Covid death is reported. The Flu data is estimated. Still, don't downplay the flu. Just saying.

Not to mention that there is a huge difference in dying "from" covid then dying "with" covid...

That line has been erased...

[JMintzer]

But......how many of those people who died with Covid would still be alive today? Think about it. I have.

No way of knowing...

People sent to hospice to die of cancer were listed as "covid deaths"...

People who died in traffic accidents were listed as "covid deaths"...

Just because the tested positive...

[JMintzer]

I recall having to take a yellow shot record with me whenever I travelled, which documented vaccines against certain illnesses, two of which were smallpox and yellow fever. Can't remember the others. Some countries required it, and others didn't. This wasn't that long ago--seventies and eighties. I don't think these yellow "passports" are still required, but don't know for sure. So such things are nothing new.

Foreign countries have their own rules... We cannot control that...

[Tmarkwald]

Yes, it will disappear, just like polio and the bubonic plague (which we've seen come back in recent years)...

Why has polio disappeared? Because for over 50 years the polio vaccine has been MANDATORY everywhere in the world!

The same with Small Pox, etc....

Are you forgetting how many diseases are gone because of VACCINES?

[coffeebean]

OK, let's see - EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE? Nope, not even close

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor Dashboard | KFF (https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/dashboard/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-dashboard/?gclid=CjwKCAjwu5CDBhB9EiwA0w6sLeylsOPaSvzC61Vl3n4 H-7-hJQjJFSoZ4rFkCLpMdmYH5P6xjhFHbRoCMRAQAvD_BwE)
Coronavirus vaccine development: from SARS and MERS to COVID-19 - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33341119/)


'THOUSANDS GET SICK? Nope again!

Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html)


People dying by the dozens from the vaccine? TRIFECTA! Wrong on all THREE !

No detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html)

Ok, YOUR turn to source where your 'facts' are coming from....
Don'tcha just love to debunk those asinine conspiracy theories?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Sorry, but you're still contradicting yourself...

By banning the use of the vaccine passport, they are telling "offices, restaurants and businesses" that they cannot use that parameter to decide whom they serve...

...and thereby being subject to government regulation. The businesses would be under the government's thumb and be forced to do what the government wants them to do...and that is refrain from requiring a vaccine passport. I'm agreeing with what you're saying. I don't see the contradiction, it's what I've been saying all along.

And the bigger issue and the real theme of this thread is that the action of regulating what businesses can and cannot do, which DeSantis is advocating, is contrary to conservative principles. This conundrum is the heart of the thread. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

The government (without input from DeSantis) has already told business that they do not have that freedom...

Good point and I believe you are correct (except in the case of religious objection). So why is DeSantis piling on then? If businesses already do NOT have the freedom to decide whom they serve, what's the point of banning a requirement to show proof of vaccination?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Maybe it's you?

Yes, that's been hashed out here already. My phrase "...but they support this proposal..." was apparently ambiguous. Some thought the "proposal" was vaccine passports even though I specified the proposal in question was DeSantis' plan to ban them in the previous paragraph. Nonetheless, I edited the original post for clarity.

[C. C. Rider]

Those who think that businesses are going to turn away customers who don't have proof of having a vaccine are simply wrong about business. We went through an almost identical situation 20+ years ago when Florida made it simple and easy for nearly all law abiding citizens to obtain permits to carry a concealed weapon on them.

Many of the opponents of the law claimed that businesses will simply exercise their right to refuse service to those people carrying firearms. Turns out that they were wrong. Businesses are in business to make money. That means serving the public, and the more customers, the better the business likes it.

Sure, the law prohibits the carrying of firearms in schools, courthouses, and a few places like that. But other than the handful of exceptions provided for in the law, I don't know of any business that refuses service to people legally carrying a concealed weapon where the law does not prohibit the carrying.

Many people carry all the time everywhere they go and no one else even knows about it. It would be the same way with this Vaccine Passport thing. Those who think that their favorite restaurant or little hideaway is going to put up signs and prohibit customers who don't have a vaccine card are simply dreaming. The businesses are not going to turn away customers regardless what you think of it. However, you're still free to leave if you want. You just won't have the right to tell the business whom they can serve and whom they can't.

[jswirs]

I'll just say this - nobody is, or intends to, wear a mask at the squares in an effort to protect the anti-vaxxers from contracting the virus.

That is blatantly obvious. If you refuse to get vaccinated, then be prepared for the possible consequences. I saw a friend die from lung cancer at 60. He asked me if I had quit smoking, which I had 20 years earlier. He said he wished he had quit as well.

I couldn't get him to quit, the same way I can't get an anti-vaxxer to get a vaccine.

So, there will be people, anti-vaxxers - on their death beds wishing they'd made different choices in lif

IMHO

If you continue to drive your vehicle, motorcycle, or continue to cross a busy street, or continue to eat red meat, or go hiking, or rock climbing etc., etc., these people also could be on their death beds, wishing they had made different choices in life. This is called living. If you like living, be prepared for the possible consequences.

[jswirs]

Your "information" is incorrect. Where did you get it? The medical experts (not the pillow guy or Scott Atlas, a radiologist) have said that the vaccine effectiveness will protect you from being seriously ill or hospitalized. They state that it is too early to say that people who have contracted Covid 19 will not pass it to someone else. Florida governor (aka Mini Me) as usual doesn't know what he is talking about. How is a vaccine verification card different than having a passport or driver's license?
Because you don't have to have chemicals injected into your body to get a passport, or a driver's license.

[jswirs]

Read it again, Jswirs... "Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

You are stating that the support of the proposal to ban vac. ID cards is supporting government interference. Not true. To a conservative, supporting the "ban" of vaccine passports is NOT supporting government interference. Quite the opposite, if our Governor were supporting vac. ID cards, this, then would be government interference. Therefore, supporting legislation to ban vac. ID cards is what a conservative would support.
In other words, the proposal to ban vac. ID cards is, in and of itself, conservative, meaning, less government interference. If no one has ID cards, then restaurants, businesses, etc., would not be able to segregate possible patrons thru the use of ID cards. And hopefully, someday, get back to "normal".

[Two Bills]

If everyone had a V tattooed on their forehead, with an information Chip inserted after being vaccinated, there would be no need for passports.
This would save a lot of paper, and trees, which would also stop Climate Change in its tracks.
Win Win!
V and Chip is the way to go!:icon_wink:

[Tmarkwald]

Don'tcha just love to debunk those asinine conspiracy theories?

We must have some very young (or forgetful) people on here. The comment that polio just 'disappeared by itself' really threw me for a loop!

Even an anti-vaxxer knows that without the polio vaccine we'd have people everywhere with polio. As well as small pox, rubella, measles, etc....

The whole premise of declining the vaccine I find irresponsible, but to quote virus and disease we've managed to keep under control because of a vaccine?

Yes, at this time, you have the right, here in the US, to refuse the virus. But be prepared for the consequences.

And the argument that " I'm not getting the virus because I'll have herd immunity " is simply asinine. A person doesn't get herd immunity - a herd does - in this case humanity. And how do we get there? Exposure and recovery maybe 10%, but vaccines do all the rest.

So, waiting for herd immunity is an incredibly selfish attitude. Those people are letting everyone else take responsibility for their personal health.

Spock would not approve (another blast form the past - wonder how many will get it?)

[JMintzer]

Why has polio disappeared? Because for over 50 years the polio vaccine has been MANDATORY everywhere in the world!

The same with Small Pox, etc....

Are you forgetting how many diseases are gone because of VACCINES?

I guess you missed my sarcasm...

Polio has NOT disappeared... It's making a comeback...

[JMintzer]

Good point and I believe you are correct (except in the case of religious objection). So why is DeSantis piling on then? If businesses already do NOT have the freedom to decide whom they serve, what's the point of banning a requirement to show proof of vaccination?

Because the new powers that be are trying to use the vaccine passport to usurp what freedoms the people still have...

[JMintzer]

Those who think that businesses are going to turn away customers who don't have proof of having a vaccine are simply wrong about business. We went through an almost identical situation 20+ years ago when Florida made it simple and easy for nearly all law abiding citizens to obtain permits to carry a concealed weapon on them.

Many of the opponents of the law claimed that businesses will simply exercise their right to refuse service to those people carrying firearms. Turns out that they were wrong. Businesses are in business to make money. That means serving the public, and the more customers, the better the business likes it.

Sure, the law prohibits the carrying of firearms in schools, courthouses, and a few places like that. But other than the handful of exceptions provided for in the law, I don't know of any business that refuses service to people legally carrying a concealed weapon where the law does not prohibit the carrying.

Many people carry all the time everywhere they go and no one else even knows about it. It would be the same way with this Vaccine Passport thing. Those who think that their favorite restaurant or little hideaway is going to put up signs and prohibit customers who don't have a vaccine card are simply dreaming. The businesses are not going to turn away customers regardless what you think of it. However, you're still free to leave if you want. You just won't have the right to tell the business whom they can serve and whom they can't.

Costco is the first that comes to mind. They prohibit concealed or open carry...

Now, I agree, if they can't see it, there's not much they'll do, but if you're printing, they can and will ask you to leave.

Good thing is, the only penalty is a possible charge of trespassing...

[golfing eagles]

I don't understand why all the pro-vaccine passport posters are using yellow fever as an example. It has nothing in common with COVID, other than being a virus. Yellow fever is transmitted by mosquitoes, not person to person. The countries that require the vaccination are not interested in YOUR health. Do you think the government of Malawi gives a rat's furry arse if an American dies? They just don't want you to die in their country, possibly on their dime. They would require malaria prophylaxis for the same reason, except it is impossible to enforce. With poliomyelitis making a comeback, why not a passport for that? Far more contagious and deadly than COVID, and while it is primarily transmitted by the fecal-oral route, it can sometimes be respiratory. Besides, ever check out an airplane bathroom or the restrooms at the airport?????

So if you want to be "sure" the person next to you on a plane is COVID free (but even the vaccine doesn't guarantee that), by all means support the "vaccine passport", and give up some of your freedoms, especially when the next step occurs. How about being "sure" the person next to you doesn't have HIV??? Can't get it from sitting next to him? How about a nosebleed? How about a cut from something in the overhead bin? How about coughing up some blood from pneumocystis carinii pneumonitis? To those who want to feel "100% safe", how do you feel about HIV status on your "passport". Then there are dozens more infectious diseases to worry about, all more contagious and deadly than COVID. So please, beware the slippery slope.

[Larchap49]

To expand on what I said above, if an individual feels that they are particularly vulnerable to the virus, then why wouldn't it be THEIR responsibility to stay out of public places or take extra precautions such as double masking in order to protect themselves? Why should someone whose personal risk level from the virus is way less than 1% be prohibited from being in a public place just because some particularly vulnerable person doesn't feel safe?

Shouldn't self protection be the primary responsibility of the individual rather than placing the burden upon society to protect them by giving up their own freedoms?

Wow someone with common sense. What a rare person you are. Thank you!!!!!

[Larchap49]

I foresee vaccine passports for more than just covid. Yes, children are required to be vaccinated to enter school, but what about for HPV? Flu? Shingles? I'm sure there's more. Where is the line drawn? No, I'm not a supporter.

Thank you

[MrFlorida]

It's bad enough to have carry my Villages ID around, never mind a paper card saying I have been vaccinated.

[oneclickplus]

All this discussion about vaccines and passports is like arranging chairs on the deck of the titanic. Take a look at this video discussing the use of the vaccine during a pandemic.

vaccine disaster ahead - YouTube (https://youtu.be/QuNeOGfbR_4)

And, if you don't want to watch the whole thing, here's a 90-second clip that summaries it:

clip - YouTube (https://youtu.be/HUZhHZf0EnA)

[Swoop]

We must have some very young (or forgetful) people on here. The comment that polio just 'disappeared by itself' really threw me for a loop!

Even an anti-vaxxer knows that without the polio vaccine we'd have people everywhere with polio. As well as small pox, rubella, measles, etc....

The whole premise of declining the vaccine I find irresponsible, but to quote virus and disease we've managed to keep under control because of a vaccine?

Yes, at this time, you have the right, here in the US, to refuse the virus. But be prepared for the consequences.

And the argument that " I'm not getting the virus because I'll have herd immunity " is simply asinine. A person doesn't get herd immunity - a herd does - in this case humanity. And how do we get there? Exposure and recovery maybe 10%, but vaccines do all the rest.

So, waiting for herd immunity is an incredibly selfish attitude. Those people are letting everyone else take responsibility for their personal health.

Spock would not approve (another blast form the past - wonder how many will get it?)
There have been two other strains of Coronaviruses that made the leap from animals to humans, SARS & MERS. SARS was around for less than two years, the MERS outbreak lasted less than three years. We didn’t have a vaccine for either one...

[Spalumbos62]

No, the federal government is paying for it...

I thought that too, but why did they want our ins info , and why did an EOB come in the mail for it. Or else the info collection was for Big Brother, ya know, future reference.
Just a thought.

[G.R.I.T.S.]

Puhleeese! The "line is to be drawn" would be at COVID and only COVID which is currently the ONLY international pandemic still spreading worldwide and the only one in 100 years. None of your other examples are even close to what is happening.

In any case, my opinion to the question asked is I don't care either way whether they do or don't. Not really a BFD. All our personal information is available everywhere with just a little effort so this wouldn't matter 1 iota.

I don't know of a single time when the government stayed within any boundary. Temporary sales taxes? Patriot Act? FISA courts? :1rotfl:

[G.R.I.T.S.]

Great responses so far but none are getting to the heart of what I intended to be the matter. And that is...in this case conservatives are supporting government regulation. And government regulation is contradictory to their guiding principles.

On the other hand, liberals, who don't mind government regulation and expect a lot of it, ironically are against this proposed government regulation.

The point is there is no black and white. Both sides want the best for our country, but we approach it differently. This is proof we overlap.

This wasn't intended to be about the pros and cons of a vaccine passport, but carry on as you wish.

I believe the proposal is a preemptive strike.

[Bill14564]

I thought that too, but why did they want our ins info , and why did an EOB come in the mail for it. Or else the info collection was for Big Brother, ya know, future reference.
Just a thought.

I imagine (I don't know) that your insurance may have been charged for the personnel that performed the injection. There may be a standard amount that a pharmacy is allowed to charge insurance for their time.

The EOB came because the claim was made against the insurance and they are making you aware. But since you have that EOB, what were you charged for, the cost of the vaccine or just the cost of performing the injection?

My wife and I have received three of our four injections with no cash, no credit card, and no insurance information requested.

[Tmarkwald]

I assume everyone saw this...

CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow on Monday that "our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus" or get sick.

"It's not just in the clinical trials, but it's also in real-world data," she added.

[unialimon]

I remember my fake ID's. Worked almost every time.

[C. C. Rider]

I remember my fake ID's. Worked almost every time.

Yeah, I had one too and it usually worked even though the only physical similarity between the fake ID that I had and me is that both of us are male. My fake ID was from a different state too, but that didn't matter most of the time. Hell, I probably could have shown them a label from a soup can and they would have said "OK". :)

Which tends to prove that people who are in business don't like to turn away paying customers.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Costco is the first that comes to mind. They prohibit concealed or open carry...

Now, I agree, if they can't see it, there's not much they'll do, but if you're printing, they can and will ask you to leave.

Good thing is, the only penalty is a possible charge of trespassing...

Doesn't the Florida castle law and stand your grounds law mean the guard at Costco can shoot you if you argue with him when he asks you to leave?

I'm thinking the potential for a "worst case possible" penalty for violating a conceal and carry policy of a company whose owner is someone other than yourself, is a lot worse than merely trespassing.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I thought that too, but why did they want our ins info , and why did an EOB come in the mail for it. Or else the info collection was for Big Brother, ya know, future reference.
Just a thought.

Because if they CAN recoup some of the expense from insurance companies, they will. It's not going to cost YOU anything more by submitting insurance information. In fact, it might end up costing less overall to the taxpayer (which may or may not include yourself, I don't know you), if more of the cost of vaccinating the majority of people living in the USA, is covered by insurance companies instead of federal funds.

[JMintzer]

Doesn't the Florida castle law and stand your grounds law mean the guard at Costco can shoot you if you argue with him when he asks you to leave?

I'm thinking the potential for a "worst case possible" penalty for violating a conceal and carry policy of a company whose owner is someone other than yourself, is a lot worse than merely trespassing.

Yeah, no...

That only works if your life is in danger...

[Arlene pugh]

Only non vaccinated get it and that is their choice so why worry about them.

[John41]

Originally Posted by jmintzer5 View Post
Costco is the first that comes to mind. They prohibit concealed or open carry...

Now, I agree, if they can't see it, there's not much they'll do, but if you're printing, they can and will ask you to leave.
————————————————� �—————

Then if I get killed in Costco because they provided inadequate security I should be able to sue them.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yeah, no...

That only works if your life is in danger...

No, it works if you BELIEVE your life to be in danger. Read the actual law.

[Tmarkwald]

No, it works if you BELIEVE your life to be in danger. Read the actual law.

very correct.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by jmintzer5 View Post
Costco is the first that comes to mind. They prohibit concealed or open carry...

Now, I agree, if they can't see it, there's not much they'll do, but if you're printing, they can and will ask you to leave.
————————————————� �—————

Then if I get killed in Costco because they provided inadequate security I should be able to sue them.

I hope you intended the irony of your post. (In case you missed it - you just implied that you would sue someone after you're dead. Because dead people can call lawyers or file claims in a courthouse somehow?)

Look at it the other way: if you get killed in Costco because you showed up carrying a firearm and they felt you were a threat to themselves or the customers, and they shoot you, they could sue your estate for the traumatic incident.

[JMintzer]

No, it works if you BELIEVE your life to be in danger. Read the actual law.

If "any reasonable person" would believe their life was in danger...

Not just that you believe it...

I have read the law... I've taken the training...

[JMintzer]

I hope you intended the irony of your post. (In case you missed it - you just implied that you would sue someone after you're dead. Because dead people can call lawyers or file claims in a courthouse somehow?)

Look at it the other way: if you get killed in Costco because you showed up carrying a firearm and they felt you were a threat to themselves or the customers, and they shoot you, they could sue your estate for the traumatic incident.

And if you're simply carrying a holstered firearm, they have no cause to shoot you. There is no "perceived threat".

The castle doctrine would not protect that action...

[Tmarkwald]

And if you're simply carrying a holstered firearm, they have no cause to shoot you. There is no "perceived threat".

The castle doctrine would not protect that action...

Yeah, just because I walk around with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm going to actually HIT someone with it.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by jmintzer5 View Post
Costco is the first that comes to mind. They prohibit concealed or open carry...

Now, I agree, if they can't see it, there's not much they'll do, but if you're printing, they can and will ask you to leave.
————————————————� �—————

Then if I get killed in Costco because they provided inadequate security I should be able to sue them.

Nope. Just like the Police, Costco has no responsibility to protect you...

[JMintzer]

Yeah, just because I walk around with a baseball bat doesn't mean I'm going to actually HIT someone with it.

Yeah, but if you "brandish" that baseball bat, in a threatening manner, all bets are off...

Same with a holstered weapon...

[Dilligas]

Seems to me, when I applied for my passport 40 years ago, I was not required to show anything save proof of citizenship. I can present my passport and fly to the Caribbean or Europe if the borders to that country are open. I am not required to show proof of any immunizations. I can fly anywhere within THIS country without proof of immunization.
Vaccine passports are an absurd overreaction to covid19.
You are incorrect in your statement. There are other countries (as in Africa & South America) in the world that require visas and vaccinations for entry. The vaccinations may be for other deseases that are a problem in their country (such as Yellow Fever). You can count on the fact that to travel internationally, you will be required proof of vaccination or desease recovery from Covid-19. Simply testing negative (usually within a 3-7 day period) is not a sufficient indication of your being desease free.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yeah, but if you "brandish" that baseball bat, in a threatening manner, all bets are off...

Same with a holstered weapon...

How are you holstering an AR-15, or a shotgun? Those are LEGAL to carry in some states.

Not that it has anything to do with vaccine passports but...

A business does not have to give up ITS rights in order to protect yours.

[JMintzer]

How are you holstering an AR-15, or a shotgun? Those are LEGAL to carry in some states.

Not that it has anything to do with vaccine passports but...

A business does not have to give up ITS rights in order to protect yours.

I never mentioned either of those, now did I?

But nice attempt at diversion...

I also never said that a business can't ask you not to carry in their store.

I simply said that refusal to comply will only result in a "trespassing" charge, at most...

Reading is fundamental...

[Davidgroupx]

Because they could give it to other people who have not yet been vaccinated, or the 10% who have been but are unfortunately the few who are not really protected.

[Nazz300]

I hope you intended the irony of your post. (In case you missed it - you just implied that you would sue someone after you're dead. Because dead people can call lawyers or file claims in a courthouse somehow?

Well, after your dead, I know you are able to vote. So why wouldn't you be able to file a claim? :ho:

[Tmarkwald]

Because they could give it to other people who have not yet been vaccinated, or the 10% who have been but are unfortunately the few who are not really protected.

Without a quote, there is no idea what you are referring to.

[Chi-Town]

I have noticed that people are getting vaccinated because they see that the future will close doors on them if they're not. Not necessarily because they want to.

[tvbound]

Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?

[golfing eagles]

Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?

As others have pointed out, you don't need a foreign substance injected into your body to wear a shirt or shoes

I'd like to see how quickly the far left switches positions if there was a proposal to force inmates to get the vaccine or no conjugal visits? The ACLU would take a supersonic transport to the courthouse to get an injunction.

[JMintzer]

Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?

HIPPA protections...

[coffeebean]

It was not. They wanted to give me a shot of something but I would have to be transported to the hospital. I declined.

NOT a good decision on your part. That shot could have prevented this adverse reaction and the lasting effects you are having. Don't come on to a public forum and complain about an adverse reaction when you refused treatment.

[coffeebean]

I have no problem with "showing". I have a huge problem with making a piece of paper the requirement for travel, dining, stadiums, etc. It has been pointed out that such a system is not "perfect". The problem is that it is so far from "perfect" as to be useless.
One can not travel internationally without a US passport. In fact, no one can travel internationally without a passport from their country to prove their citizenship. Why can't a vaccine passport be done as safely and honestly as a passport to prove citizenship? '

Here is a great example of allowing vaccinated people to have more freedoms than un-vaccinated people........Disney World, as someone mentioned upthread, can check for proof of vaccination then issue an arm band to the vaccinated person. That armband is the "passport" for that person to traverse everywhere on the Disney grounds, indoors and outdoors, WITHOUT a mask. Every person without that armband must wear a mask while anywhere on the Disney World grounds. THAT is what I wish for. DeSantis has made that impossible at this point. As long as Disney requires masks, I will not be going to Disney World.

[stanley]

Here is a great example of allowing vaccinated people to have more freedoms than un-vaccinated people........

And there we have it, an "example" to lose freedoms..............what other examples would you like to give? Where would those "examples" end?

[coffeebean]

...and thereby being subject to government regulation. The businesses would be under the government's thumb and be forced to do what the government wants them to do...and that is refrain from requiring a vaccine passport. I'm agreeing with what you're saying. I don't see the contradiction, it's what I've been saying all along.

And the bigger issue and the real theme of this thread is that the action of regulating what businesses can and cannot do, which DeSantis is advocating, is contrary to conservative principles. This conundrum is the heart of the thread. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
How about this explanation......
If DeSantis would just stay out of it, the establishments of any kind in the state of Florida can do as they wish when it comes to requiring a vaccine passport or not requiring a vaccine passport to render services.

I wish DeSantis would just stay out of it!

[stanley]

How about this explanation......
If DeSantis would just stay out of it, the establishments of any kind in the state of Florida can do as they wish when it comes to requiring a vaccine passport or not requiring a vaccine passport to render services.

I wish DeSantis would just stay out of it!

So now you want the government to "stay out of it" when it fits your wants and needs. You can't make this crap up!

[coffeebean]

I don't understand why all the pro-vaccine passport posters are using yellow fever as an example. It has nothing in common with COVID, other than being a virus. Yellow fever is transmitted by mosquitoes, not person to person. The countries that require the vaccination are not interested in YOUR health. Do you think the government of Malawi gives a rat's furry arse if an American dies? They just don't want you to die in their country, possibly on their dime. They would require malaria prophylaxis for the same reason, except it is impossible to enforce. With poliomyelitis making a comeback, why not a passport for that? Far more contagious and deadly than COVID, and while it is primarily transmitted by the fecal-oral route, it can sometimes be respiratory. Besides, ever check out an airplane bathroom or the restrooms at the airport?????

So if you want to be "sure" the person next to you on a plane is COVID free (but even the vaccine doesn't guarantee that), by all means support the "vaccine passport", and give up some of your freedoms, especially when the next step occurs. How about being "sure" the person next to you doesn't have HIV??? Can't get it from sitting next to him? How about a nosebleed? How about a cut from something in the overhead bin? How about coughing up some blood from pneumocystis carinii pneumonitis? To those who want to feel "100% safe", how do you feel about HIV status on your "passport". Then there are dozens more infectious diseases to worry about, all more contagious and deadly than COVID. So please, beware the slippery slope.
I get your point but those diseases you mentioned or any other communicable disease for that matter, is not currently causing a global pandemic. There is the difference.

[coffeebean]

I assume everyone saw this...

CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow on Monday that "our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus" or get sick.

"It's not just in the clinical trials, but it's also in real-world data," she added.

THIS is why I want to be assured that the person sitting next to me on an airplane on a domestic or international flight has been vaccinated.

That is just the beginning>>>>>>>>>>>

[coffeebean]

Because they could give it to other people who have not yet been vaccinated, or the 10% who have been but are unfortunately the few who are not really protected.

Aren't the few that are "not really protected" may get Covid but will not have severe symptoms requiring hospitalization and will not die. That is my understanding. So, to me, everyone who is vaccinated is offered protection.

[coffeebean]

HIPPA protections...
HIPAA laws are to protect an individual's privacy but an individual may divulge their medical history if they wish to do so.

So......if a vaccinated person would like to produce a vaccine passport to board a cruise ship, let's say, they are within their rights to do so. HIPAA has nothing to do with that.

[blueash]

Posted by tvbound
Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?

HIPPA protections...

You are wrong about HIPAA [not HIPPA]
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) is a federal law that required the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed without the patient's consent or knowledge.

There is absolutely no violation of HIPAA if you disclose your own health information which is what would happen in the situation described.

EDIT Oh I see as I was typing the correct information was being posted.

[coffeebean]

And there we have it, an "example" to lose freedoms..............what other examples would you like to give? Where would those "examples" end?

They are endless, actually. I'm not saying these limitations will last forever. I'm sure they won't for your sake.

[coffeebean]

So now you want the government to "stay out of it" when it fits your wants and needs. You can't make this crap up!

I have been very verbal about not agreeing with our governor. I think the businesses should have the say as to how they wish to handle this pandemic going forward. There should be no government intervention. Isn't that conservative way of thinking?

[blueash]

I usually find that golfing eagles is medically accurate even if we differ on some politics. But this post is simply wrong in the one fact, as opposed to opinion, it contained:

Originally Posted by golfing eagles ....
With poliomyelitis making a comeback, why not a passport for that? Far more contagious and deadly than COVID, and while it is primarily transmitted by the fecal-oral route, it can sometimes be respiratory. Besides, ever check out an airplane bathroom or the restrooms at the airport?????

Polio is not making a comeback. There are two broad categories of people getting polio. One is the wild virus which is the traditional case of polio that the Salk and Sabin vaccines were designed to eliminate. There are three strains of wild polio conveniently called type 1, 2, or 3. All 3 strains are contained in both vaccines. In the oral vaccine the virus is alive but very weakened so that it is extremely rare but not impossible that someone who gets the vaccine can get real active polio from the vaccine. In the polio shot the virus is dead and cannot cause disease.

If someone gets polio from the vaccine it is called vaccine derived polio VDP. If it is wild polio then WPV.

Here are the data for the week ending March 31, 2021 (https://polioeradication.org/polio-today/polio-now/this-week/):

Summary of new WPV and cVDPV viruses this week (AFP cases and ES positives): AFP mean acute flaccid paralysis, or clinical polio, ES means environmental sample, they tested the water and found vaccine polio in the water

Afghanistan: five cVDPV2 cases and two cVDPV2 positive environmental samples
Pakistan: two WPV1 and one cVDPV2 positive environmental samples
Côte d’Ivoire: 34 cVDPV2 positive environmental samples
Guinea: one cVDPV2 positive environmental sample
Liberia: three cVDPV2 positive environmental samples
*****: one cVDPV2 positive environmental sample Really censor? This is a country in Africa N i g e r
Senegal: two cVDPV2 cases and one positive environmental sample
South Sudan: three cVDPV2 positive environmental samples

So the only cases of wild polio in the entire world last week were two in Pakistan where there is now a huge issue getting the fundamental Islamic areas to accept vaccines as they believe vaccines are a Western biological warfare agent. Funny about people believing such wrong things about vaccines isn't it.

In Afghanistan there were 5 people diagnosed with polio they caught from being vaccinated.

The total wild polio cases for 2020 were:
Afghanistan 56
Pakistan 84

No other country in the world has had a single case of wild polio in either 2019, 2020 or 2021. For comparison in 1988 there were an estimated 350,000 cases of wild polio in the world (https://www.cdc.gov/polio/progress/index.htm). No, polio is not making a comeback.

[blueash]

So true how you replied. I should have a say what chemical is put into my body without being labeled with a scarlet letter because I choose not to have the vaccine at this time. Our country fought for these freedoms to have them taken away. With all the people vaccinated already the possitive covid count should be going down drastically. If a person chooses to have the vaccine, I respect your decision, that is your right.

You believe our country fought for the freedom to not get a vaccine? Do our soldiers get a choice not to get required vaccines? Did our Revolutionary War leader and first President, George Washington, force his soldiers to get smallpox prevention? Yes he did (https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html). Did he establish a regulation that no person from Boston where there was a smallpox epidemic be allowed to travel to where his troops were encamped, (https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/smallpox/)yes he did. So please, General Washington set up a rule where people at risk of having a contagious disease could not freely travel. Sound familiar? Just a little bit?

Don't tell me America was founded so that people can refuse vaccines and still do whatever they please because of "freedumb" Read history and learn.

[jswirs]

You don't get the vaccine.....you suffer the consequences. THAT is what I wish for. There is a reason vaccinated people should reap the rewards for receiving the vaccinations. We are doing our part to achieve herd immunity. There should benefits to that.

Sorry you don't agree but I get a kick "watching" and "listening" to the anti-vaxxers squirm when there is discussion that they will undoubtedly be living with limitations in their lives for the foreseeable future. That includes international airline travel and cruising so far. There will be more to come and I can't wait to see what is next.
You are so right, anti vaxxers could have limitations on travel, stadiums, etc...BUT...then again, those who have been vaccinated may need more vaccinations to deal with variants, or, maybe loose their health because the vaccine has limited their own natural immune system to protect them form other viruses. Yes, we all can't wait to see what is next.

[stanley]

They are endless, actually. I'm not saying these limitations will last forever. I'm sure they won't for your sake.

Endless limitations on our freedoms? You have no idea of the repercussions in that way of thinking.

[stanley]

I have been very verbal about not agreeing with our governor. I think the businesses should have the say as to how they wish to handle this pandemic going forward. There should be no government intervention. Isn't that conservative way of thinking?

Now you want no government intervention?? Now you want business's to have their say? That so special also. You would raise holy hell if a business denied you access because you were vaccinated and they don't believe in it. Like I said.. when something suits your purpose you are OK with it.....and damn everyone else.

[jswirs]

You believe our country fought for the freedom to not get a vaccine? Do our soldiers get a choice not to get required vaccines? Did our Revolutionary War leader and first President, George Washington, force his soldiers to get smallpox prevention? Yes he did (https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html). Did he establish a regulation that no person from Boston where there was a smallpox epidemic be allowed to travel to where his troops were encamped, (https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/smallpox/)yes he did. So please, General Washington set up a rule where people at risk of having a contagious disease could not freely travel. Sound familiar? Just a little bit?

Don't tell me America was founded so that people can refuse vaccines and still do whatever they please because of "freedumb" Read history and learn.

Since you are asking questions, here's one for you: Do you know that in times of war drastic measures may be employed for the war effort? Further, do you know that, right now, we are not at war? So, you go ahead and call others, "Freedumb", but I'll live my life under the guise of someone much smarter than I, to quote..."Those who sacrifice freedom for some sort of security end up with neither", and, "The loss of freedom will be replaced with panic and hording"
Sound familiar? Just a little bit?

[coffeebean]

You believe our country fought for the freedom to not get a vaccine? Do our soldiers get a choice not to get required vaccines? Did our Revolutionary War leader and first President, George Washington, force his soldiers to get smallpox prevention? Yes he did (https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/GW&smallpoxinoculation.html). Did he establish a regulation that no person from Boston where there was a smallpox epidemic be allowed to travel to where his troops were encamped, (https://www.mountvernon.org/library/digitalhistory/digital-encyclopedia/article/smallpox/)yes he did. So please, General Washington set up a rule where people at risk of having a contagious disease could not freely travel. Sound familiar? Just a little bit?

Don't tell me America was founded so that people can refuse vaccines and still do whatever they please because of "freedumb" Read history and learn.

I did not know any of what you said but I appreciate the history lesson. Thank you.

[coffeebean]

You are so right, anti vaxxers could have limitations on travel, stadiums, etc...BUT...then again, those who have been vaccinated may need more vaccinations to deal with variants, or, maybe loose their health because the vaccine has limited their own natural immune system to protect them form other viruses. Yes, we all can't wait to see what is next.
There is a mass vaccination effort globally to get this pandemic on its knees. I honestly feel the virologists, immunologists and the pharmaceutical companies who have developed these vaccines have not and will not cause harm to so many people on this massive scale.

I do believe these vaccines are safe for humans. Wouldn't the vaccine developers know if these vaccines could possibly have any effect at all to damage immune systems? I believe they do know that no harm can be done to the human immune system. The RNA is eliminated from the body within a very short time (hours). How can harm be derived?

[coffeebean]

Endless limitations on our freedoms? You have no idea of the repercussions in that way of thinking.

The limitations can be for the short term as I said they probably won't last forever; just the amount of time it takes to get this pandemic under control. There is nothing wrong with limitations for un-vaccinated people for the sake of public health. It is already starting so there is that.

This is my opinion of course.

[coffeebean]

Now you want no government intervention?? Now you want business's to have their say? That so special also. You would raise holy hell if a business denied you access because you were vaccinated and they don't believe in it. Like I said.. when something suits your purpose you are OK with it.....and damn everyone else.

Well, I look at it this way......the folks who are refusing to be vaccinated in this mass effort to achieve herd immunity are also damning everyone else who are doing their part. There are two ways to look at it.

[golfing eagles]

The limitations can be for the short term as I said they probably won't last forever

Hitler, 1933

[coffeebean]

Hitler, 1933
You are a physician. I do not understand why you are not more of a proponent for humanity to err on the safe side for the sake of public health.

[jswirs]

There is a mass vaccination effort globally to get this pandemic on its knees. I honestly feel the virologists, immunologists and the pharmaceutical companies who have developed these vaccines have not and will not cause harm to so many people on this massive scale.

I do believe these vaccines are safe for humans. Wouldn't the vaccine developers know if these vaccines could possibly have any effect at all to damage immune systems? I believe they do know that no harm can be done to the human immune system. The RNA is eliminated from the body within a very short time (hours). How can harm be derived?
The undisputed fact is, no one knows for sure, only time will tell. You believe what you want to believe, as well all will do.

[golfing eagles]

You are a physician. I do not understand why you are not more of a proponent for humanity to err on the safe side for the sake of public health.

I think you misunderstand. I am 100% in favor of everyone getting vaccinated, I am under 65 so had to wait, but now I have an appointment for tomorrow. I favor masks indoors when social distancing cannot be guaranteed.

245 years ago we sent a letter to George III delineating certain rights and freedoms that we believed in, in 1787 we immortalized them in our constitution. Most of that document limited what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do

There have been certain situations where we play loose and free with that document---wartime, pandemics, Japanese-American internment camps, pre civil rights South, etc., all in the name of "the greater good" The problem is WHO gets to decide the greater good.

You are free to argue the severity of this pandemic and quote numbers, but IMHO, compared with pandemics of the past, this is a minor event. Spanish flu 1918-19----50-100 million dead. Black Death of 1347---60% of Europe dead. Justinian plague of 541-49---30% of the population dead. I just don't believe that the draconian response that we have had so far, much less future regulations and edicts, are justified.

Bottom line: You and I are in the same book and same chapter, just on a slightly different page.

[coffeebean]

I think you misunderstand. I am 100% in favor of everyone getting vaccinated, I am under 65 so had to wait, but now I have an appointment for tomorrow. I favor masks indoors when social distancing cannot be guaranteed.

245 years ago we sent a letter to George III delineating certain rights and freedoms that we believed in, in 1787 we immortalized them in our constitution. Most of that document limited what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do

There have been certain situations where we play loose and free with that document---wartime, pandemics, Japanese-American internment camps, pre civil rights South, etc., all in the name of "the greater good" The problem is WHO gets to decide the greater good.

You are free to argue the severity of this pandemic and quote numbers, but IMHO, compared with pandemics of the past, this is a minor event. Spanish flu 1918-19----50-100 million dead. Black Death of 1347---60% of Europe dead. Justinian plague of 541-49---30% of the population dead. I just don't believe that the draconian response that we have had so far, much less future regulations and edicts, are justified.

Bottom line: You and I are in the same book and same chapter, just on a slightly different page.

Congratulations on getting your appointment for vaccination. I really do enjoy reading your posts and have a great appreciation for your contributions to this forum. Thank you!

[JMintzer]

HIPAA laws are to protect an individual's privacy but an individual may divulge their medical history if they wish to do so.

So......if a vaccinated person would like to produce a vaccine passport to board a cruise ship, let's say, they are within their rights to do so. HIPAA has nothing to do with that.

I never said it did...

I was specifically talking about REQUIRING a Vaccine Passport... Which is what the entire thread is about...

[JMintzer]

You are wrong about HIPAA [not HIPPA]


There is absolutely no violation of HIPAA if you disclose your own health information which is what would happen in the situation described.

EDIT Oh I see as I was typing the correct information was being posted.

No, you're wrong, as well... (And sorry for the typo...)

I deal with HIPAA daily, I know exactly what it is...

This thread is about REQUIRING a Vaccine Passport. Not choosing to disclose the information...

[JMintzer]

I think you misunderstand. I am 100% in favor of everyone getting vaccinated, I am under 65 so had to wait, but now I have an appointment for tomorrow. I favor masks indoors when social distancing cannot be guaranteed.

245 years ago we sent a letter to George III delineating certain rights and freedoms that we believed in, in 1787 we immortalized them in our constitution. Most of that document limited what GOVERNMENT can and cannot do

There have been certain situations where we play loose and free with that document---wartime, pandemics, Japanese-American internment camps, pre civil rights South, etc., all in the name of "the greater good" The problem is WHO gets to decide the greater good.

You are free to argue the severity of this pandemic and quote numbers, but IMHO, compared with pandemics of the past, this is a minor event. Spanish flu 1918-19----50-100 million dead. Black Death of 1347---60% of Europe dead. Justinian plague of 541-49---30% of the population dead. I just don't believe that the draconian response that we have had so far, much less future regulations and edicts, are justified.

Bottom line: You and I are in the same book and same chapter, just on a slightly different page.

Prezactly!

[blueash]

Quote:
Posted by tvbound
Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmintzer5 View Post
HIPPA protections...

posted by Blueash
You are wrong about HIPAA [not HIPPA]
Quote:
The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996 (HIPAA) is a federal law that required the creation of national standards to protect sensitive patient health information from being disclosed without the patient's consent or knowledge.
There is absolutely no violation of HIPAA if you disclose your own health information which is what would happen in the situation described.

No, you're wrong, as well... (And sorry for the typo...)

I deal with HIPAA daily, I know exactly what it is...

This thread is about REQUIRING a Vaccine Passport. Not choosing to disclose the information...

The purpose of a vaccine passport would be to have a form you could provide to document that you have been vaccinated. No one would be required to have such a passport just as no one is required to have a US Passport now, unless you wish to partake in an activity where such a document is required, like take a cruise to Europe. If you show up at the cruise terminal without your passport you are refused boarding even if you have a driver's license or a school ID with your photo. A real passport is what they need to see. Don't want to cruise, don't get a passport.

Similarly if a business wants to see proof you are immunized to accept you as a customer it could be in many forms. You might just have to say "I had my shots" That wouldn't be a passport but does require that you voluntarily disclose your own health care information. No HIPAA violation. Or a business might not accept your word and want a note from your doctor which she writes but you provide. Again disclosing protected health information with your ok. No HIPAA violation. Or the business might require a form from the government agency that provided and likely paid for your shots. That is one form a Vaccine passport might take. Again you okayed the information being given to the business and you authorized the government to print your passport, and you likely sent the govt your information so it could print the passport, just like your US passport required you to provide information to the govt to print it.

So my comment is correct. There is no HIPAA violation in a Vaccine Passport. You are disclosing your own vaccine status. No third party is disclosing your status without your consent which exactly what HIPAA prohibits. A business requiring proof of vaccination is not a HIPAA violation. "No passport no service" Your providing your own vaccine status is not a HIPAA violation.

[JMintzer]

The purpose of a vaccine passport would be to have a form you could provide to document that you have been vaccinated. No one would be required to have such a passport just as no one is required to have a US Passport now, unless you wish to partake in an activity where such a document is required, like take a cruise to Europe. If you show up at the cruise terminal without your passport you are refused boarding even if you have a driver's license or a school ID with your photo. A real passport is what they need to see. Don't want to cruise, don't get a passport.

Similarly if a business wants to see proof you are immunized to accept you as a customer it could be in many forms. You might just have to say "I had my shots" That wouldn't be a passport but does require that you voluntarily disclose your own health care information. No HIPAA violation. Or a business might not accept your word and want a note from your doctor which she writes but you provide. Again disclosing protected health information with your ok. No HIPAA violation. Or the business might require a form from the government agency that provided and likely paid for your shots. That is one form a Vaccine passport might take. Again you okayed the information being given to the business and you authorized the government to print your passport, and you likely sent the govt your information so it could print the passport, just like your US passport required you to provide information to the govt to print it.

So my comment is correct. There is no HIPAA violation in a Vaccine Passport. You are disclosing your own vaccine status. No third party is disclosing your status without your consent which exactly what HIPAA prohibits. A business requiring proof of vaccination is not a HIPAA violation. "No passport no service" Your providing your own vaccine status is not a HIPAA violation.

Nope... The lead (trial) balloon being floated is to REQURE the Vaccine Passport for use...

Can you imagine the outcry if you had to prove you HIV status or whether or not you had Hep B? Why is this any different?

Now, if you want to offer that info, more power to you. Others may not feel the same and should not be required to do so...

[coffeebean]

I never said it did...

I was specifically talking about REQUIRING a Vaccine Passport... Which is what the entire thread is about...

I was responding to your post #332 that said, and I quote the entire post here, "HIPAA Protection".

That response made me think that you feel a vaccine passport would violate a person's privacy. I simply stated, and I paraphrase myself, that HIPAA laws protect privacy but the individual can decide on their own to produce said medical information such as a vaccination record. HIPPA laws are not pertinent if the individual decides to produce a vaccine record.

[coffeebean]

Nope... The lead (trial) balloon being floated is to REQURE the Vaccine Passport for use...

Can you imagine the outcry if you had to prove you HIV status or whether or not you had Hep B? Why is this any different?

Now, if you want to offer that info, more power to you. Others may not feel the same and should not be required to do so...

There is a tremendous difference between having to disclose medical issues information such as you mentioned. Those are specific diseases (HIV status, Hep B). Disclosing vaccination status is not disclosing any sort of disease or health issue. In fact, disclosing a vaccine status is very positive information as it parallels with Public Health and discloses that the vaccinated person is essentially doing their part for our country to reach herd immunity. That, right there, is reason to be very proud of your vaccine status.

[blueash]

US Based cruise line, Windstar cruises (https://www.windstarcruises.com/health-safety/), has announced that it will require all passengers to prove completed vaccination status plus two weeks prior to boarding. Additionally they will at the embarkation port do a Covid antigen test which must be negative to be allowed to board. The announcement does not say what format the vaccination proof must be. But here is a perfect example of a business demanding the information that would appear in a Vaccination Passport. There also is nothing on the website as to what refund if any you would receive if you arrive fully vaccinated but have a positive or equivocal antigen test.

Windstar Cruises will require proof of a current COVID-19 vaccination for all guests sailing aboard Windstar’s yachts. The cruise line arrived at the decision in the best health and wellness interests of its guests, crew, and the places the yachts visit.

At the cruise terminal prior to embarkation, guests will be required to provide proof of a completed current vaccine course (one or two shots, depending on the brand) finished at least 14 days prior to the guest’s embarkation date.

NEW: No COVID-19 PCR test is required at pier. Windstar will require and administer a free COVID-19 antigen test at pier prior to boarding. A negative test result is required to board.

As Windstar does sail from Miami, I don't know what DeSantis's executive order demands. Is he going to tell Windstar it cannot dock in Florida unless it changes its policy? Or is he going to let the public decide what cruise company to use and the business decide what risk of Covid on board it wants to accept?

[blueash]

Royal Caribbean Cruise line from their website today:
Q Do I need a COVID-19 vaccine to cruise? What documents count as proof of vaccination? How far in advance do I need to get my vaccine?
A
At this time, we are requiring guests 18 years and older to be fully vaccinated for COVID-19, along with all crew members onboard. Each guest must submit proof of vaccination no later than boarding day, in the form of the original vaccination record document issued by either (1) the country’s health authority that administered the vaccination (e.g., U.S. CDC's Vaccination Record Card) or (2) the guest's medical provider that administered the vaccination. Electronic vaccination records will only be accepted for residents of those countries where electronic documentation is the standard issued form (e.g., a unique QR code). The vaccination record submitted to Royal Caribbean must show that the guest is fully vaccinated. This means that the guest has completed the full cycle of required doses for the vaccine administered (e.g., received the second dose in a two-dose series), and that the guest has received the final dose at least 14 days before sailing.

All guests must present proof of vaccination as well as all required travel documents upon arrival at the ship terminal.

Sounds a lot like a vaccination passport or its equivalent, a vaccine record for travel. I'll stop at two examples, but there are more.

[JMintzer]

I was responding to your post #332 that said, and I quote the entire post here, "HIPAA Protection".

That response made me think that you feel a vaccine passport would violate a person's privacy. I simply stated, and I paraphrase myself, that HIPAA laws protect privacy but the individual can decide on their own to produce said medical information such as a vaccination record. HIPPA laws are not pertinent if the individual decides to produce a vaccine record.

And I was responding to post #1... You know, what this entire thread is about?

And if you're going to quote me, please do so accurately... I specifically said "HIPPA Protection" (sic)... ;)

[coffeebean]

US Based cruise line, Windstar cruises (https://www.windstarcruises.com/health-safety/), has announced that it will require all passengers to prove completed vaccination status plus two weeks prior to boarding. Additionally they will at the embarkation port do a Covid antigen test which must be negative to be allowed to board. The announcement does not say what format the vaccination proof must be. But here is a perfect example of a business demanding the information that would appear in a Vaccination Passport. There also is nothing on the website as to what refund if any you would receive if you arrive fully vaccinated but have a positive or equivocal antigen test.

As Windstar does sail from Miami, I don't know what DeSantis's executive order demands. Is he going to tell Windstar it cannot dock in Florida unless it changes its policy? Or is he going to let the public decide what cruise company to use and the business decide what risk of Covid on board it wants to accept?

I surely hope DeSantis has no say whatsoever about how the cruise lines conduct their businesses out of ports in Florida. Most people who verbalized they want to cruise have said they WANT to be on board with all vaccinated crew and passengers. I read this over and over on the cruise forums. Very few are willing to board a cruise ship with any un-vaccinated passengers or crew, myself and hubby included.

Bottom line....it is the anti-vaxxers that are fighting the idea of a vaccine passport tooth and nail. They are the ones who are willing to cruise with un-vaccinated people on board.

[JMintzer]

There is a tremendous difference between having to disclose medical issues information such as you mentioned. Those are specific diseases (HIV status, Hep B). Disclosing vaccination status is not disclosing any sort of disease or health issue. In fact, disclosing a vaccine status is very positive information as it parallels with Public Health and discloses that the vaccinated person is essentially doing their part for our country to reach herd immunity. That, right there, is reason to be very proud of your vaccine status.

HIV and Hep B are specific diseases and Covid isn't? News to me!

All 3 are caused by viruses...

[JMintzer]

There is a tremendous difference between having to disclose medical issues information such as you mentioned. Those are specific diseases (HIV status, Hep B). Disclosing vaccination status is not disclosing any sort of disease or health issue. In fact, disclosing a vaccine status is very positive information as it parallels with Public Health and discloses that the vaccinated person is essentially doing their part for our country to reach herd immunity. That, right there, is reason to be very proud of your vaccine status.

And being "proud of your vaccine status" is irrelevant to the conversation...

[JMintzer]

US Based cruise line, Windstar cruises (https://www.windstarcruises.com/health-safety/), has announced that it will require all passengers to prove completed vaccination status plus two weeks prior to boarding. Additionally they will at the embarkation port do a Covid antigen test which must be negative to be allowed to board. The announcement does not say what format the vaccination proof must be. But here is a perfect example of a business demanding the information that would appear in a Vaccination Passport. There also is nothing on the website as to what refund if any you would receive if you arrive fully vaccinated but have a positive or equivocal antigen test.


As Windstar does sail from Miami, I don't know what DeSantis's executive order demands. Is he going to tell Windstar it cannot dock in Florida unless it changes its policy? Or is he going to let the public decide what cruise company to use and the business decide what risk of Covid on board it wants to accept?

Methinks the courts will decide...

[JMintzer]

Royal Caribbean Cruise line from their website today:


Sounds a lot like a vaccination passport or its equivalent, a vaccine record for travel. I'll stop at two examples, but there are more.

Their requests are useless, as those little pieces of heavy stock paper are already being counterfeited...

A letter from "Epstein's Mom" would carry more weight...

[coffeebean]

And I was responding to post #1... You know, what this entire thread is about?

Post #1 was composed by Walrus. This is the post you responded to.......

Originally Posted by tvbound View Post
Almost everyone has accepted that a private business and/or public venues can institute and enforce a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. Why should a "no Covid passport, no service" - be any different?
The passage I highlighted is not Post #1. Your response to this post above that I bolded and italicized was and I quote, "HIPAA protections".

I responded to you that HIPAA has nothing to do with an individual who decides to make their medical history known. The HIPAA law does not effect an individual's choice to divulge information to anyone.

[coffeebean]

HIV and Hep B are specific diseases and Covid isn't? News to me!

All 3 are caused by viruses...

Of course, Covid is a disease. But.......I did not say one has to divulge they had Covid. It is the VACCINATION to Covid that I was referring to that would need to be proven. This should have been clear enough.

This is what I said and I'm copying and pasting my words here.......
"Disclosing vaccination status is not disclosing any sort of disease or health issue."

[coffeebean]

Reading back on these last few posts, it appears that I'm not making myself very clear with my thoughts. I think I will take a break for a while. See ya!

[Kenswing]

Reading back on these last few posts, it appears that I'm not making myself very clear with my thoughts. I think I will take a break for a while. See ya!
Almost 400 posts in this thread. I don't think anyone is making themselves clear. :1rotfl:

[ranger712222]

The more regulations imposed the less freedom we have.

[JMintzer]

Of course, Covid is a disease. But.......I did not say one has to divulge they had Covid. It is the VACCINATION to Covid that I was referring to that would need to be proven. This should have been clear enough.

This is what I said and I'm copying and pasting my words here.......
"Disclosing vaccination status is not disclosing any sort of disease or health issue."

"Vaccination Status" is most certainly a health issue...

[NonResident]

According to HIPAA regulations which were passed under the Clinton administration (and took full effect by 2001) anything related to your health, conditions, or treatment are considered private. Supreme court ruled in 1905 that mandatory vaccinations were Constitutional in cases of a pandemic. In 1922, vaccine law was further enshrined in a ruling that allowed schools to reject admittance without certain vaccines. There are exceptions to the rule where-by Government institutions may require vaccine. The most important of these was under a religious freedom clause in which forced vaccinations were ruled unconstitutional in 1944.

Either way, your status as a vaccinated person may not be shared freely unless you explicitly authorize. Unfortunately, corporations MAY ask for vaccine status as condition of service. But you can also refuse to answer on condition of religious objection. If they deny you service on condition of your religious stance, you have a lawsuit.

[NonResident]

Bottom line....it is the anti-vaxxers that are fighting the idea of a vaccine passport tooth and nail. They are the ones who are willing to cruise with un-vaccinated people on board.


Anti-vaxxers have almost always historically been Democrats. This is overwhelmingly true, and if you search (use Bing, not Google) for articles pre-2019... you'll find an overwhelming concurrence that Progressives / Democrats are vehemently against vaccinations as a whole. It typically is more rooted in doing things organically, etc.

When Trump was still president... even leading up through February of this year... Democrats were even more anti-vaxx because they didn't trust the vaccine since it had been a huge push from President Trump.

After the Harris/Biden administration came in, there WAS a shift in trust... which is largely rooted in much of the seemingly oppressive push that they've tried to roll it out. Despite the narrative that you're perpetuating... there's still an overwhelming mistrust among the progressive and minority population. So much in fact that the current administration has been trying to elicit the support of Hollywood to make infomercials to try to get people to take the vaccine.

[Aces4]

Not quite, skippy.

Many companies require a drug test as a condition of employment. You can object on religious grounds, but you won't get the job if you don't get the drug test. They have the right to require proof that you're clean and sober. If you can provide some other means of proof, I'm sure they'd consider accepting it. But currently, a blood test and urinalysis are the only methods of testing for certain chemicals in the bloodstream.

For vaccines, they want to make sure that you aren't going to Typhoid Mary your way into killing their staff and customers. If you can provide some proof other than a Vaccine card (such as proof of immunity via anti-bodies, perhaps), then sure they should be able to accept that proof. But they absolutely positively DO have the right to reject you as a potential employee if you refuse to provide that proof.


But lulu, when did we start demeaning posters with childish nicknames? :ohdear:

[Chi-Town]

Anti-vaxxers have almost always historically been Democrats. This is overwhelmingly true, and if you search (use Bing, not Google) for articles pre-2019... you'll find an overwhelming concurrence that Progressives / Democrats are vehemently against vaccinations as a whole. It typically is more rooted in doing things organically, etc.

When Trump was still president... even leading up through February of this year... Democrats were even more anti-vaxx because they didn't trust the vaccine since it had been a huge push from President Trump.

After the Harris/Biden administration came in, there WAS a shift in trust... which is largely rooted in much of the seemingly oppressive push that they've tried to roll it out. Despite the narrative that you're perpetuating... there's still an overwhelming mistrust among the progressive and minority population. So much in fact that the current administration has been trying to elicit the support of Hollywood to make infomercials to try to get people to take the vaccine.

Don't use Bing. Who does? Anyhow, a link would help to verify your assertions.

[stanley]

Not quite, skippy.


But lulu, when did we start demeaning posters with childish nicknames? :ohdear:

That's normal...gets the point across better:ohdear:

[coffeebean]

"Vaccination Status" is most certainly a health issue...

I do not see it that way. At all.

[coffeebean]

Anti-vaxxers have almost always historically been Democrats. This is overwhelmingly true, and if you search (use Bing, not Google) for articles pre-2019... you'll find an overwhelming concurrence that Progressives / Democrats are vehemently against vaccinations as a whole. It typically is more rooted in doing things organically, etc.

When Trump was still president... even leading up through February of this year... Democrats were even more anti-vaxx because they didn't trust the vaccine since it had been a huge push from President Trump.

After the Harris/Biden administration came in, there WAS a shift in trust... which is largely rooted in much of the seemingly oppressive push that they've tried to roll it out. Despite the narrative that you're perpetuating... there's still an overwhelming mistrust among the progressive and minority population. So much in fact that the current administration has been trying to elicit the support of Hollywood to make infomercials to try to get people to take the vaccine.

All Trump had to do was publicly get the vaccine with Mrs. Trump receiving the vaccine too. Latest stats that I have seen is 45% of Republicans do not want to be vaccinated. Don't you think it would have been a great public service effort for the Trumps to send a message to his supporters to get the vaccine? I certainly do. He dropped the ball.