Cruise Industry Reacts To Florida’s CDC Lawsuit

[OmniTours]

Cruise Industry Reacts To Florida’s CDC Lawsuit

Florida Gov. DeSantis’ lawsuit to force the federal government to allow cruising in the U.S. gained much attention and enthusiastic reactions from his supporters and some loyal cruisers.

What did the cruise industry itself have to say about it? We asked, since no cruise executives attended DeSantis' press conference, according to the Miami Herald.

CLICK HERE TO READ MORE (https://www.travelpulse.com/news/cruise/cruise-industry-reacts-to-floridas-cdc-lawsuit.html)

[billethkid]

The rub with Desantis will be when more cruise lines requiring vaccinated crews and passengers.

This is not the first time vaccinations of one kind or another are required for travel!

[Stu from NYC]

We are in as soon as they require vaccinations and we can leave our mask in our car.

[JoMar]

We are in as soon as they require vaccinations and we can leave our mask in our car.

Requiring vaccinations seems to be at the top of their list. So far masks and social distancing are also part of the plan. I suspect they are trying to be as safe as possible to get other Countries to allow them to dock and tour. Don't think leaving the masks in the car will happen this year. Having any kind of outbreak, no matter how small, will hit every news outlet and social media and they don't need that.

[Stu from NYC]

Requiring vaccinations seems to be at the top of their list. So far masks and social distancing are also part of the plan. I suspect they are trying to be as safe as possible to get other Countries to allow them to dock and tour. Don't think leaving the masks in the car will happen this year. Having any kind of outbreak, no matter how small, will hit every news outlet and social media and they don't need that.

Very possible you are correct and that is why we have not booked anything other than a S Caribbean one for December.

Do not see us on a cruise if we have to wear a mask all day on a ship.

Waiting.

[Bay Kid]

I bought my own boat. Now I cruise whenever I want. No mask required.

[dougjb]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?

[Stu from NYC]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?

Seriously?

First of all we both got the vaccine as soon as possible.

Second find it rather uncomfortable and will wear it when around others but on vacation if we have to wear it we will find other ways to vacation.

[Tmarkwald]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?

If you want to wear a max, as a vaccinated person, to protect others, who are also vaccinated, you go right ahead. You will be in the minority. A vaccinated person is NOT going to infect someone else.

If you don't want to get vaccinated - I do not give a damn.

[Tmarkwald]

Senators introduce new bill for cruise ships to sail without CDC approval | Royal Caribbean Blog (https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/04/13/senators-introduce-new-bill-cruise-ships-sail-without-cdc-approval?fbclid=IwAR0Mz2gZPdwfdTRzvy4kVY-8AiGnbHH-7p0FjKqsiVKgWz3MmBKFxzACidE)

[roscoguy]

A vaccinated person is NOT going to infect someone else.

That's a pretty definitive position. Got any backing for it? Every single website I checked after searching "can a vaccinated person infect someone else with covid" gave answers ranging from 'possibly' to 'we don't know.' To be fully honest, I did quit reading after a dozen or so.

[Tmarkwald]

That's a pretty definitive position. Got any backing for it? Every single website I checked after searching "can a vaccinated person infect someone else with covid" gave answers ranging from 'possibly' to 'we don't know.' To be fully honest, I did quit reading after a dozen or so.

I was more referring to the CDC guidance that once vaccinated, and with other vaccinated people, there is no longer any need or risk to socially distance or wear masks.

That's the definitive - That a vaccinated person won't carry the virus and infect another vaccinated person. As stringent as CDC has been, when they say there is no longer any risk once vaccinated, and that the masks are no longer needed, I guess I'll take their word for it.

[CFrance]

Seriously?

First of all we both got the vaccine as soon as possible.

Second find it rather uncomfortable and will wear it when around others but on vacation if we have to wear it we will find other ways to vacation.
What he said.


I wonder what De Santis will do if the cruise ships start requiring vaccination passports?

[Stu from NYC]

What he said.


I wonder what De Santis will do if the cruise ships start requiring vaccination passports?

Will be interesting.

Cruise lines cannot afford an outbreak of covid so do not see how they do not require vaccinations and covid test upon boarding.

[Bill14564]

At some point the fear has to end and we need to get back to normal. We aren't there yet but with 3M vaccinations per day it's getting close.

Once everyone who wants a vaccination can get one there should be little or no chance of a breakout. If there is then the vaccine isn't doing what it should.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I'm still of the opinion that I'd rather go on a smaller river boat type of cruise, where there are fewer than 250 passengers and typically no one under the age of 30 on board, and much more room (per person) to spread out and social distance EVEN when it's not required.

I don't like being line line for anything, where the person behind me is breathing down my back. I don't care if they're vaccinated or not. I also don't like being pushed up against other people in line so closely that I can smell the stench of their aftershave.

If social distancing of 2-3 feet or more becomes normal, expected, and "what polite people just DO, naturally" then I'll reconsider my opinion. Til then, I'm pretty much done cruising on the mega-ships for awhile.

[JoMar]

I was more referring to the CDC guidance that once vaccinated, and with other vaccinated people, there is no longer any need or risk to socially distance or wear masks.

That's the definitive - That a vaccinated person won't carry the virus and infect another vaccinated person. As stringent as CDC has been, when they say there is no longer any risk once vaccinated, and that the masks are no longer needed, I guess I'll take their word for it.

The vaccination is supposed to protect you from getting very sick or dying...it does not protect you from getting the virus. You can still get the virus and pass it around so your statement is not the definitive. Not wearing a mask around other vaccinated folks is because if you pass it around they won't get seriously sick or die. If someone does not have the vaccine they are vulnerable.

[Tmarkwald]

. If someone does not have the vaccine they are vulnerable.

Then they should stay home or protect themselves.

[Tmarkwald]

mask up in close quarters ... or we will NEVER get rid of this virus.

We've never gotten rid of the common cold.

I'm not running my life scared.

[golfing eagles]

The vaccination is supposed to protect you from getting very sick or dying...it does not protect you from getting the virus. You can still get the virus and pass it around so your statement is not the definitive. Not wearing a mask around other vaccinated folks is because if you pass it around they won't get seriously sick or die. If someone does not have the vaccine they are vulnerable.

PLEEEEZEE!!!!!

I have tried a dozen or more times to dispel this myth/rumor. If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity). It is a VACCINE, it was developed to protect people from contracting COVID, not to mitigate any illness they acquire, and hence end the pandemic. Does anyone really think we spent trillions of dollars just to make some individuals less ill????? Nonsense. And yet this myth keeps getting repeated and repeated on this forum and elsewhere. (FYI, this myth started with an article in an obscure medical journal that suggested a vaccinated individual could come in contact with droplets from an infected individual and harbor them in their oropharynx for an hour or so and during that time possibly spread the virus. Their only conclusion was that more research was needed, but the whole premise was somewhat unlikely.)

Bottom line, the previous statement by T was DEFINITIVE

[Tmarkwald]

PLEEEEZEE!!!!!

I have tried a dozen or more times to dispel this myth/rumor. If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity). It is a VACCINE, it was developed to protect people from contracting COVID, not to mitigate any illness they acquire, and hence end the pandemic. Does anyone really think we spent trillions of dollars just to make some individuals less ill????? Nonsense. And yet this myth keeps getting repeated and repeated on this forum and elsewhere. (FYI, this myth started with an article in an obscure medical journal that suggested a vaccinated individual could come in contact with droplets from an infected individual and harbor them in their oropharynx for an hour or so and during that time possibly spread the virus. Their only conclusion was that more research was needed, but the whole premise was somewhat unlikely.)

Bottom line, the previous statement by T was DEFINITIVE

Exactly, and that 5% that the vaccine didn't work for seem to be the thread people use to say 'the vaccine doesn't really protect you....yada yada'.

So, simple math (theoretical)

- every is vaccinated, but in 5% of the people the vaccine doesn't work

- someone in the 5% group gets Covid and somehow manages to give it to someone else in the 5% group (we're already getting into the unlikely field here)

- of those that catch Covid, a great percentage are asymptomatic and don't know they even have Covid - so outbreaks in vaccinated people are about as common as one of us winning the Powerball lottery

[golfing eagles]

Exactly, and that 5% that the vaccine didn't work for seem to be the thread people use to say 'the vaccine doesn't really protect you....yada yada'.

So, simple math (theoretical)

- every is vaccinated, but in 5% of the people the vaccine doesn't work

- someone in the 5% group gets Covid and somehow manages to give it to someone else in the 5% group (we're already getting into the unlikely field here)

- of those that catch Covid, a great percentage are asymptomatic and don't know they even have Covid - so outbreaks in vaccinated people are about as common as one of us winning the Powerball lottery

And here is some more food for thought that I don't believe has been studied:

To draw an analogy to recombinant hepatitis B vaccine, which is also about 95% effective----when a person who was in the 5% that did not acquire immunity gets re-vaccinated, about 90% of them acquire immunity. Would make an interesting COVID study, could probably get a few million in federal grant $$$.

[Tmarkwald]

And here is some more food for thought that I don't believe has been studied:

To draw an analogy to recombinant hepatitis B vaccine, which is also about 95% effective----when a person who was in the 5% that did not acquire immunity gets re-vaccinated, about 90% of them acquire immunity. Would make an interesting COVID study, could probably get a few million in federal grant $$$.

Great point!

Another aspect is - what if the person gets Moderna, but did not get immunity. So, they vaccinate with Pfizer?

Who's to say that maybe the 95% group is different between vaccines?

There is a study going on in the UK, where people were given two DIFFERENT vaccines to boost the immunity even farther..

U.K. Expands Its Mix-And-Match Covid-19 Vaccine Trial To Include Moderna And Novavax Shots (https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/04/14/uk-expands-its-mix-and-match-covid-19-vaccine-trial-to-include-moderna-and-novavax-shots/?sh=5b51ff164c25)

[golfing eagles]

Great point!

Another aspect is - what if the person gets Moderna, but did not get immunity. So, they vaccinate with Pfizer?

Who's to say that maybe the 95% group is different between vaccines?

There is a study going on in the UK, where people were given two DIFFERENT vaccines to boost the immunity even farther..

U.K. Expands Its Mix-And-Match Covid-19 Vaccine Trial To Include Moderna And Novavax Shots (https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/04/14/uk-expands-its-mix-and-match-covid-19-vaccine-trial-to-include-moderna-and-novavax-shots/?sh=5b51ff164c25)

Interesting study. I wonder if they will do the "salvage" study as well.

For example, the two main chemotherapy regimens for advanced Hodgkin's are MOPP and ABVD. Both are 90+% effective alone. When both regimens are given simultaneously, they are 96% effective. But, if you let the patient fail on one of them and then start the other, you get 99% efficacy. So sometimes more all at once is not better

[kbace6]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?
No problem getting a vaccine, but if I have to wear a mask after paying thousands of dollars to go on a cruise, that is a non-starter. Why would anyone have to were a mask if everyone on the cruise ship has been vaccinated? And even if a few folks got on the ship without a vaccination, why would I care if I have already been vaccinated? If someone WANTS to wear a mask out of an abundance of caution, they are free to do so without ridicule from me, but I will not be joining them. We already have a cruise booked for the fall, but will cancel it for sure if masks are required to cruise.

[Marine1974]

There is no evidence the vaccination will prevent you from getting or giving the virus to others . Provide your proof or believe what you want , but most people
are not buying the theory of vaccinated people can not spread Covid 19 .

[kbace6]

There is no evidence the vaccination will prevent you from getting or giving the virus to others . Provide your proof or believe what you want , but most people
are not buying the theory of vaccinated people can not spread Covid 19 .
Marine1974. Never said anything to the contrary and do not dispute anything you said. You have clearly made assumptions about my position. Vaccines are only about 95% effective. That's enough for me. Again, if you want to wear a mask, go for it. I will not wear one on a cruise ship. If I want to be forced to wear a mask, I can live my life as I and we all have for over a year now. I am simply saying that if I am paying big $$$ to go on a cruise, it will NOT include a mask.

[J1ceasar]

Thank you for this link, it was interesting as well as the comments by the cruise industry. Of course everyone wants to be safe but a big? Still is what will happen once one passenger or a worker get sick even if a vaccinated after traveling to another Port destination? Will everybody have to stay on board for an extra two weeks? I have not been a cruiser for a while but I have friends who do and I worry for them

[J1ceasar]

As you said in others: Vaccines are only about 95% effective. That's enough for me. Again, if you want to wear a mask, go for it. I would hate to be in that 5% and be sick and symptomatic. Is it enough of a risk for you or me?

[Tmarkwald]

No problem getting a vaccine, but if I have to wear a mask after paying thousands of dollars to go on a cruise, that is a non-starter. Why would anyone have to were a mask if everyone on the cruise ship has been vaccinated? And even if a few folks got on the ship without a vaccination, why would I care if I have already been vaccinated? If someone WANTS to wear a mask out of an abundance of caution, they are free to do so without ridicule from me, but I will not be joining them. We already have a cruise booked for the fall, but will cancel it for sure if masks are required to cruise.

I think you speak for 90% of us cruisers...There will always be 10% Chicken Littles!
The CDC says vaccinated people can congregate with no social distancing or masks...
That defines a cruiseship in my book.

[Tmarkwald]

As you said in others: Vaccines are only about 95% effective. That's enough for me. Again, if you want to wear a mask, go for it. I would hate to be in that 5% and be sick and symptomatic. Is it enough of a risk for you or me?

You'd not only have to be in that 5%, you'd also have to be in the very unlikely group that even gets sick.

5% is the number that are susceptible, of which only a few percent will actually get Covid, and of those, the majority never even know it.

[golfing eagles]

There is no evidence the vaccination will prevent you from getting or giving the virus to others . Provide your proof or believe what you want , but most people
are not buying the theory of vaccinated people can not spread Covid 19 .

And the myth lives on. It's like talking to a brick wall.

From the CDC website:

*Vaccines currently approved for use in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19.
*COVID-19 vaccination is an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
*CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as one is available to you.
*All COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19.

And here is the snippet that the myth promulgators latch on to to repeat ad nauseum that you can still get COVID but a less severe illness if you are vaccinated:

*Some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because the vaccines are not 100% effective. When this happens, vaccination might help keep you from getting seriously ill, based on data from clinical studies.

Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!

[Tmarkwald]

And the myth lives on. It's like talking to a brick wall.

From the CDC website:

*Vaccines currently approved for use in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19.
*COVID-19 vaccination is an important tool to help stop the pandemic.
*CDC recommends you get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as one is available to you.
*All COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19.

And here is the snippet that the myth promulgators latch on to to repeat ad nauseum that you can still get COVID but a less severe illness if you are vaccinated:

*Some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because the vaccines are not 100% effective. When this happens, vaccination might help keep you from getting seriously ill, based on data from clinical studies.

Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!

You got it!

[Art cov]

Let’s face the truth, cruising will be very boring with mask, 6 feet apart, I would not want to go. Imagine, not getting into shows, music venues, karaoke, so much would be canceled or a third or half occupancy on the decks. Close the pools, hot tubs, and so much more. All the complaining all over the ship not to imagine all the mask police trying to ruin the vacations of everyone. Many things are not being thought of here. Since prices of everything has gone up, food quality won’t be the same along with everything else. Rising fuel prices, it will be a nightmare. No more dancing, private island lines for food, forget about it! Lines around the whole island to get a piece of chicken or salad. It may take 3 times the time to get off or on a ship at ports. I’m sure you can imagine the chaos brewing as tempers rise with all the aggravation. Just one real or phony outbreak and everyone is quarantined. Lets see how this plays out. 6’ apart is a joke in the elevators, no cramming in after spending the afternoon on an island to hurry to get the buffet or any other place on the ship. Imagine trying to get to the room after running around in the heat in Jamaica to get a shower! Have yourself the time of your life! Hey folks, I loved cruising! But think about some things that will change

[Hiltongrizz11]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?

If masks worked we wouldn't be doing this stuff after a year! Wakeup?

The only way this governmental OVER REACH will stop is if WE THE PEOPLE push back and say enough!

This virus is virtually no risk for over 99% of the population. If you are afraid stay home. Let the rest of us keep the world open so you have one to come back to after you've cowered away for so long.

[Girlcopper]

The rub with Desantis will be when more cruise lines requiring vaccinated crews and passengers.

This is not the first time vaccinations of one kind or another are required for travel!
Correct. Depending where in Europe or overseas the cruise ports, some vaccinations are required. This may just be one of them to cruise anywhere

[donassaid]

Any cruise line requiring masks and vaccinations can forget my business. I thought we lived in America, the former "home of the brave and land of the free"?

[davephan]

At some point, the cruises will start again in the US. The three largest cruise ship ports in the world are located in Florida. The cruise ships are supposed to be safer than the grocery stores now.

Cruises already started up many months ago from foreign ports, and there’s been no stories about cruise ship disasters, with people getting sick or dying.

When cruising starts up again, we’ll probably take another cruise. Cruising is a fantastic way to travel, which eliminates the hassles of traveling by land. However, we’d would always choose to have a balcony cabin in the future, never an interior cabin, just in case there is a problem.

[billethkid]

A cruise requiring all vaccinated crew and all vaccinated passengers would not need social distancing or masks....see golfing eagles post 34 above.

[Tmarkwald]

Any cruise line requiring masks and vaccinations can forget my business. I thought we lived in America, the former "home of the brave and land of the free"?

So, the rest of the world has to conform, but we don't?

COVID vaccine passports: More cruise lines and airlines climb aboard (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/covid-vaccine-passports-more-cruise-lines-and-airlines-climb-aboard/ar-BB1etPHj?ocid=msedgntp)

[Alana33]

The majority of destinations outside the mainland U.S. require a negative test for entry and proof of vaccinations, this includes U.S. Territories.
Cruise ships and airline travel will also require this.
Before you go on a cruise you should check on how successful your destination has been in reducing covid and what their infection and death rate is.
Many Caribbean destinations have worked hard to contain infection because their medical infrastructure is insufficient to care for mass outbreaks in their population. Plus, many destinations require that you wear a mask in all public places.
When you have cruise ship passengers inundation of small Caribbean islands, increasing their popopulation, daily, with 30,000 plus visitors, it pays to be safe and have these rules in place.
FL already has the highest # of Covid variants in the US. Let's not spread it further.

[Villages Kahuna]

Aha! The lobbyists with the handfuls of cash at work again!

[kenoc7]

[QUOTE=Stu from NYC;1929360]We are in as soon as they require vaccinations and we GET OVER THE MASK THING. They work and they will still be required in congregant settings. Do you realize that there have been huge reductions in flu, coughs, colds, and seasonal allergies because of COVID mask wearing?

[stebooo]

Amazing, someone tries to do something good and is taken to task

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If masks worked we wouldn't be doing this stuff after a year! Wakeup?

The only way this governmental OVER REACH will stop is if WE THE PEOPLE push back and say enough!

This virus is virtually no risk for over 99% of the population. If you are afraid stay home. Let the rest of us keep the world open so you have one to come back to after you've cowered away for so long.

If everyone complied and actually wore their masks, AND social distanced, we wouldn't be doing "this stuff" after a year. They urged people after the first couple of months to wear masks. Many people complied. Unfortunately, many people did NOT comply, and the virus continued to spread.

When you are that 1% who is affected directly by the virus, come back here and tell us how it's no big deal and the rest of the world should open.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Any cruise line requiring masks and vaccinations can forget my business. I thought we lived in America, the former "home of the brave and land of the free"?

Most cruise ships are registered in other countries. NOT America. In addition, if you're on a cruise going to south america, central america, the Bahamas, or overseas, you're not going to be IN America anymore.

So you can just stay home. And free up the room for someone who enjoys freedom of travel AND freedom of good health.

[blueash]

Despite GEagle's use of CAPs and BOLDS what he is telling you is not true. He continues, over and over to claim that a person who has received a full course of Covid vaccines
If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others....
And here is the snippet that the myth promulgators latch on to to repeat ad nauseum that you can still get COVID but a less severe illness if you are vaccinated:

*Some people who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 will still get sick because the vaccines are not 100% effective. When this happens, vaccination might help keep you from getting seriously ill, based on data from clinical studies.

Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!

How can quote the actual truth then call it a myth shows and incredible mental block to evidence based medicine. He continues to admit that the vaccine has a failure rate but then says a recipient CANNOT spread Covid. While he may be a psychic and in the future there will be support for his prediction, he is wrong in his certainty.

The CDC has never said that a fully vaccinated person cannot spread Covid. In fact here is what it said on April 2, 2021 (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)
We’re still learning how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease.
Early data show that the vaccines may help keep people from spreading COVID-19, but we are learning more as more people get vaccinated.

I cannot find a single highly respected authority who has said what GE claims. What is true, and entirely different from screaming CANNOT is that a fully vaccinated person is very unlikely to infect others. I am very unlikely to have a car accident today but I'm still wearing my seat belt.

I will post the link instead of telling you to accept my word about what a fully vaccinated person can do. CDC Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)


April 2, 2021
What You Can Start to Do
If you’ve been fully vaccinated:

You can gather indoors with fully vaccinated people without wearing a mask or staying 6 feet apart...

This permission of course requires that everyone in the indoor space be vaccinated thus the cruise industry will need to see proof of vaccination for staff and passengers.

There is more which is specific to travel. Again the CDC Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/international-travel-during-covid19.html) for that with a longer discussion of travel safety issued on April 2, 2021

Fully vaccinated travelers are less likely to get and spread COVID-19. However, international travel poses additional risks and even fully vaccinated travelers are at increased risk for getting and possibly spreading new COVID-19 variants.

Even a poor reader can see that the CDC did not say a fully vaccinated person CANNOT catch or spread Covid.

In fact on Apr 8 the CDC updated a requiremen (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/testing-international-air-travelers.html)t, not a suggestion, that all air passengers flying into the US must have a negative Covid test within 3 days of boarding the return flight or you are to be denied boarding. Being vaccinated does not change this requirement. If the CDC believed that being vaccinated meant; as GE claims is well established; that you CANNOT spread disease they certainly would not have made this severe rule.

[Tmarkwald]

When you are that 1% who is affected directly by the virus, come back here and tell us how it's no big deal and the rest of the world should open.

Been there, done that. And, as it is for 99% of the people who got it, not a big deal.

Not minimizing it, but there also is a limit to everyone's patience. If you are in the high risk group - protection should be primary to you - worrying about other's health has a very short attention span.

Although, there are stories like the 100% isolated family in the middle of New Zealand who caught Covid for no reason at all and with no contact.

[merrymini]

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

[Luisa]

Ridiculous to require a mask if everyone is vaccinated.

[Alana33]

Here's a peek at St. Thomas, USVI info.


Why the Allure of the U.S. Virgin Islands Deep Into the Pandemic? – Skift (https://skift.com/2021/04/09/why-the-allure-of-the-u-s-virgin-islands-deep-into-the-pandemic/?fbclid=IwAR3LCLwPydMt36pgxd_9UyTD_FaSkaf_QvAVQpza XDAEecR-2XSGQ0bNluY)

[billethkid]

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

Annual cruise participants 2019 approaching 30,000,000....

If cruise ships are diseased tin cans....using the same logic what should cars be called?.....taking into account the annual deaths and the number impaired!

Nothing more than different strokes/risks for different folks....without having to be right or wrong....because who is(n't)?

[blueash]

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney.

I really am looking for a serious reply. 16 months ago you knew nothing about Covid. Somehow you likely formed an opinion which you believe is accurate based on something. What informed you? It wasn't TOTV and it wasn't "experts." So where did you get information you relied upon to reach your beliefs? How do you decide what experts you do believe in matters of science?

[joelfmi]

“To be clear, no federal law authorizes the CDC to indefinitely impose a nationwide shutdown of an entire industry,” DeSantis said in a press release. “This lawsuit is necessary to protect Floridians from the federal government’s overreach and resulting economic harm to our state.”

[dougjb]

For all of you lovers of cruise ships, I admire your loyalty. I think we all hope for a return to normal as soon as possible. But, I would also urge all of us to take a deep breath and realize if we are patient a bit longer and do not jump the gun, we may have gain a stronger semblance of normality.

But, for those of you full of such aching for a cruise, I urge you to hold back a bit longer and with till there is an all clear. Walk with me in the following scenario. Suppose cruise ships start their rounds again and for some reason they do not require vaccination passports or are otherwise negligent in their cleanliness (needless to say, norovirus keeps entering my thought pattern). Perhaps someone slips through the cracks. Then what happens if there is an outbreak, either major or minor on board. What might be the reaction? Is it possible that the ship will be quarantined with guests confined to quarters. Some of you may love cruises but for whatever reason, perhaps economics, restrict your expense by taking an inside cabin (sans windows). How many days do you think you could stand being locked in that floating coffin before you start thinking it was foolish to take the cruise that early until things settled down? Such an early failure of a return to normalcy can delay us for far longer than if we simply bit the bullet for a bit longer.

It's just a thought.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of so-called "experts" on this thread who think that by bellowing their information a bit louder or through caps, they are more convincing. I view these individuals as well meaning, but with unproven credentials. Reading a CDC release and cherry picking the information is not expertise. Instead, I will wait for those who have epidemiological credentials of the highest calibre to guide me as to when it might be appropriate to start traveling or cruising again. Even then, I might add on a couple of weeks or months after the all clear. I don't think I'd want to take the chance, even as a fully vaccinated person of infecting others or perhaps getting sick myself. I care about others. We are all walking this planet together and I will not be subject to selfish whims.

We have come a long way and sacrificed a lot of good times to destroy what semblance of normalcy is growing.

[blueash]

This virus is virtually no risk for over 99% of the population. If you are afraid stay home. Let the rest of us keep the world open so you have one to come back to after you've cowered away for so long.

I have seen this over 99% on TOTV many times. Where does your number come from? I'll present some numbers for your consideration

There are about 330 million living in the US
There have been 560 thousand Covid deaths out of 31,000,000 positive tests. So the death rate alone is 560000/31000000 which is already a 1.8% fatality rate. We know that some of those 31 million positive tests are repeats in the same person so the denominator of the calculation is somewhat falsely elevated. The fatality rate is actually higher than 1.8%

A fatality rate of 1.85 clearly on its own is much higher than under 1% you have reported. And you seem to believe by using the phrase "This virus is virtually no risk" that death is the only risky outcome of catching Covid.

10% of Covid patients, including both those ill enough to be hospitalized but also those with mild symptoms become "long haulers (https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-information/covid-19-long-haulers.html)" which means they have life altering symptoms for months following the acute illness.

So we now are at abt 2% death and 10% long term symptoms, or 12% of those who get Covid get serious outcomes. Add the many patients who get really sick but do not get long term complications which includes most of those hospitalized and you have a large number of people, many many multiple of less than 1% for whom Covid is a serious medical disease. Somehow I think those who ended up in the hospital but not dead or long hauling would want to be included in the Covid is bad group, not the Covid is a low risk disease group. 2 million Americans (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html) have been sick enough with Covid to be hospitalized. That is 1 in 15 positive tests. Are you surprised that 7% of those with Covid get hospitalized? I was.

Maybe it is time to stop writing that Covid is no risk for 99% of the population. Everyone in the population is at risk with much lower risk numbers for children. Yes, I have used outcomes of those who got Covid to make a point, not percentages of the entire population. Why? If you know that 100% of the population has been at risk of the disease you can use the disease outcome as an estimate to how the disease would act in the whole population. But if you reject this thinking:

2 million hospitalized, 3 million long haulers, 1/2 million dead so that is already 5.5 million out of 330 million, or nearly 2% of just those seriously impacted.

[Stu from NYC]

For all of you lovers of cruise ships, I admire your loyalty. I think we all hope for a return to normal as soon as possible. But, I would also urge all of us to take a deep breath and realize if we are patient a bit longer and do not jump the gun, we may have gain a stronger semblance of normality.

But, for those of you full of such aching for a cruise, I urge you to hold back a bit longer and with till there is an all clear. Walk with me in the following scenario. Suppose cruise ships start their rounds again and for some reason they do not require vaccination passports or are otherwise negligent in their cleanliness (needless to say, rotovirus keeps entering my thought pattern). Perhaps someone slips through the cracks. Then what happens if there is an outbreak, either major or minor on board. What might be the reaction? Is it possible that the ship will be quarantined with guests confined to quarters. Some of you may love cruises but for whatever reason, perhaps economics, restrict your expense by taking an inside cabin (sans windows). How many days do you think you could stand being locked in that floating coffin before you start thinking it was foolish to take the cruise that early until things settled down? Such an early failure of a return to normalcy can delay us for far longer than if we simply bit the bullet for a bit longer.

It's just a thought.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of so-called "experts" on this thread who think that by bellowing their information a bit louder or through caps, they are more convincing. I view these individuals as well meaning, but with unproven credentials. Reading a CDC release and cherry picking the information is not expertise. Instead, I will wait for those who have epidemiological credentials of the highest calibre to guide me as to when it might be appropriate to start traveling or cruising again. Even then, I might add on a couple of weeks or months after the all clear. I don't think I'd want to take the chance, even as a fully vaccinated person of infecting others or perhaps getting sick myself. I care about others. We are all walking this planet together and I will not be subject to selfish whims.

We have come a long way and sacrificed a lot of good times to destroy what semblance of normalcy is growing.

The people who run the cruise industry by and large are pretty smart folks.

Their companies have now been closed for over a year and in a much weaker position than ever before.

They understand that if they start sailing and there are outbreaks of the virus they will be signing their death warrants.

Unless they require vaccinations plus covid tests before boarding no cruising for us and cannot imagine they would be foolish enough to take any risks.

[roscoguy]

PLEEEEZEE!!!!!

I have tried a dozen or more times to dispel this myth/rumor. If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity). It is a VACCINE, it was developed to protect people from contracting COVID, not to mitigate any illness they acquire, and hence end the pandemic. Does anyone really think we spent trillions of dollars just to make some individuals less ill????? Nonsense. And yet this myth keeps getting repeated and repeated on this forum and elsewhere. (FYI, this myth started with an article in an obscure medical journal that suggested a vaccinated individual could come in contact with droplets from an infected individual and harbor them in their oropharynx for an hour or so and during that time possibly spread the virus. Their only conclusion was that more research was needed, but the whole premise was somewhat unlikely.)

Still wrong, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Thanks to blueash and others who have already responded with links provided to dispel this rumor. All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.
Bottom line, the previous statement by T was DEFINITIVE But definitively wrong?

[Stu from NYC]

I do not believe most of what I hear from “experts” or this site. Baloney. Cruise ships have always been diseased tin cans (norovirus). You can keep em.

Guess this means you will not be joining us on a cruise.

[golfing eagles]

Despite GEagle's use of CAPs and BOLDS what he is telling you is not true. He continues, over and over to claim that a person who has received a full course of Covid vaccines


How can quote the actual truth then call it a myth shows and incredible mental block to evidence based medicine. He continues to admit that the vaccine has a failure rate but then says a recipient CANNOT spread Covid. While he may be a psychic and in the future there will be support for his prediction, he is wrong in his certainty.

The CDC has never said that a fully vaccinated person cannot spread Covid. In fact here is what it said on April 2, 2021 (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)

I cannot find a single highly respected authority who has said what GE claims. What is true, and entirely different from screaming CANNOT is that a fully vaccinated person is very unlikely to infect others. I am very unlikely to have a car accident today but I'm still wearing my seat belt.

I will post the link instead of telling you to accept my word about what a fully vaccinated person can do. CDC Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html)




This permission of course requires that everyone in the indoor space be vaccinated thus the cruise industry will need to see proof of vaccination for staff and passengers.

There is more which is specific to travel. Again the CDC Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/international-travel-during-covid19.html) for that with a longer discussion of travel safety issued on April 2, 2021



Even a poor reader can see that the CDC did not say a fully vaccinated person CANNOT catch or spread Covid.

In fact on Apr 8 the CDC updated a requiremen (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/testing-international-air-travelers.html)t, not a suggestion, that all air passengers flying into the US must have a negative Covid test within 3 days of boarding the return flight or you are to be denied boarding. Being vaccinated does not change this requirement. If the CDC believed that being vaccinated meant; as GE claims is well established; that you CANNOT spread disease they certainly would not have made this severe rule.

Still wrong, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Thanks to blueash and others who have already responded with links provided to dispel this rumor. All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.
But definitively wrong?

Nice try ladies and gentlemen, but that IS NOT what I said. I SAID that a fully vaccinated individual WHO ACQUIRED IMMUNITY COULD NOT acquire or spread the virus. For those with reading comprehension issues, that means I EXCLUDED the 5% that you are referring to.

Do I need to quote the CDC again????? Or is the paragraph above clear enough? OR SHOULD I SHOUT LOUDER????

Now that I explained why I am right and you are wrong-----I'll explain what you read on the CDC site but failed to understand.....and I'll just use an example to explain.

If 100 people are "fully vaccinated", SOME of them can still acquire and spread the virus, but likely will get less ill and are less likely to die. THESE are the 5%.

So yes, if you word it that way, fully vaccinated individuals can acquire and spread the disease.

But I was referring to the 95%. These people were fully vaccinated AND FULLY IMMUNE. So to shout it once again for those that are heard of hearing, THESE PEOPLE CANNOT GET OR SPREAD COVID. And once again, PERIOD!

I can't make it any simpler than that.

So thanks to those that tried to muddy the water with "their own reading" and then formed their own mutual admiration society thanking each other for their "contributions".

[dewilson58]

Nice try ladies and gentlemen, but that IS NOT what I said. I SAID that a fully vaccinated individual WHO ACQUIRED IMMUNITY COULD NOT acquire or spread the virus. For those with reading comprehension issues, that means I EXCLUDED the 5% that you are referring to.

Do I need to quote the CDC again????? Or is the paragraph above clear enough? OR SHOULD I SHOUT LOUDER????

Now that I explained why I am right and you are wrong-----I'll explain what you read on the CDC site but failed to understand.....and I'll just use an example to explain.

If 100 people are "fully vaccinated", SOME of them can still acquire and spread the virus, but likely will get less ill and are less likely to die. THESE are the 5%.

So yes, if you word it that way, fully vaccinated individuals can acquire and spread the disease.

But I was referring to the 95%. These people were fully vaccinated AND FULLY IMMUNE. So to shout it once again for those that are heard of hearing, THESE PEOPLE CANNOT GET OR SPREAD COVID. And once again, PERIOD!

I can't make it any simpler than that.

So thanks to those that tried to muddy the water with "their own reading" and then formed their own mutual admiration society thanking each other for their "contributions".

Try using color.

[golfing eagles]

Try using color.

Unfortunately, some people are blind as well as deaf....:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Tmarkwald]

Still wrong, no matter how loudly it is shouted. Thanks to blueash and others who have already responded with links provided to dispel this rumor. All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.
But definitively wrong?

CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html)

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky said that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that is not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real world data,"

CDC: Fully vaccinated people don’t spread COVID-19 (https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-dont-spread-covid-19-040121.html)

Data changes daily - don't shoot the messenger.

Also, 'fully vaccinated' means several weeks after the second shot. In reality, unless you have a comprehensive blood test, there is no way to tell if you are in the unfortunate 5% that the vaccine did not provide the immunity to.

That's why the vaccine isn't 100% effective - for the 95%, they are fully protected, for the 5%, they are not. The numbers, however, are low enough that an outbreak is extremely unlikely since 95% cannot carry nor get Covid.

So, for those of you who keep talking about protection from the vaccine, read this THEN do the math:

Covid-19 vaccines: CDC reports 5,800 Covid infections in fully vaccinated people (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-19-vaccines-cdc-reports-5-800-covid-infections-in-fully-vaccinated-people/ar-BB1fFe7c?ocid=msedgntp)

Did you see the numbers?

77 MILLION Vaccinated, 74 deaths - 0.0000961039% fatality rate
77 MILLION Vaccinated, 296 required hospitalization - 0.0005142857%
77 MILLION Vaccinated, 5800 with Covid-like syptoms - 0.0075324675%

These numbers are infinitesimal and, using the 5% that the vaccine was not effective on, we get this:

77 MILLION Vaccinated, 3.85 MILLION are unprotected because the vaccine did not 'take'

[golfing eagles]

CDC Data Suggests Vaccinated Don’t Carry, Can’t Spread Virus (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/04/cdc-data-suggests-vaccinated-dont-carry-cant-spread-virus.html)

CDC Director Dr. Rochelle P. Walensky said that "vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that is not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real world data,"

CDC: Fully vaccinated people don’t spread COVID-19 (https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-dont-spread-covid-19-040121.html)

Data changes daily - don't shoot the messenger.

Also, 'fully vaccinated' means several weeks after the second shot. In reality, unless you have a comprehensive blood test, there is no way to tell if you are in the unfortunate 5% that the vaccine did not provide the immunity to.

That's why the vaccine isn't 100% effective - for the 95%, they are fully protected, for the 5%, they are not. The numbers, however, are low enough that an outbreak is extremely unlikely since 95% cannot carry nor get Covid.

So, for those of you who keep talking about protection from the vaccine, read this THEN do the math:

Covid-19 vaccines: CDC reports 5,800 Covid infections in fully vaccinated people (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/covid-19-vaccines-cdc-reports-5-800-covid-infections-in-fully-vaccinated-people/ar-BB1fFe7c?ocid=msedgntp)

Did you see the numbers?

77 MILLION Vaccinated, 74 deaths - 0.0000961039% fatality rate
77 MILLION Vaccinated, 296 required hospitalization - 0.0005142857%
77 MILLION Vaccinated, 5800 with Covid-like syptoms - 0.0075324675%

These numbers are infinitesimal and, using the 5% that the vaccine was not effective on, we get this:

77 MILLION Vaccinated, 3.85 MILLION are unprotected because the vaccine did not 'take'

All true, and yet there are those with far less credentials telling me I am wrong. I just love social media----the only place you can google a few blurbs and then consider yourself an expert. No idea why I wasted 11 years to become a real expert.

[Bay Kid]

Yes....masks are such an incredible burden. It is simply the hardest thing anyone could possibly imagine to do. Don't you just find it so difficult to put one loop over one ear and the other loop over the other ear? How dare anyone suggest we should give a damn about our fellow human beings! After all, it is our right to play a part in infecting others with a potentially deadly disease. Don't you just love showing others how little you care about them?

Really? If you have the shots the govern says won't hurt you, keeps everyone safe and protects you, then why keep wearing a mask? If you are so worried maybe you should stay isolated until you feel safe.

[golfing eagles]

Really? If you have the shots the govern says won't hurt you, keeps everyone safe and protects you, then why keep wearing a mask? If you are so worried maybe you should stay isolated until you feel safe.

There are those that believe a mask is the answer to the pandemic, right from the beginning , and continue to worship at the altar of the holy mask. You will never convince them otherwise.

However, there is some rationale for continued use of masks in the appropriate settings.
Right now there a basically four groups: Those that have been fully vaccinated and acquired immunity, those who were fully vaccinated but failed to acquire immunity (the 5%ers), those that had COVID and recovered and are therefore probably immune, and those that had neither the vaccine nor the illness. How do we know who is in which group and therefore do not need masks ever? So I think we are going to be dealing with masks for some time to come, until the vast majority of people have been vaccinated, or until the new case rate approaches zero.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Really? If you have the shots the govern says won't hurt you, keeps everyone safe and protects you, then why keep wearing a mask? If you are so worried maybe you should stay isolated until you feel safe.

Because, to the surprise of absolutely no one ever, there exist dishonest people in this world.

There exist people who WILL NOT vaccinate, who MIGHT be infected, and MIGHT be spreading the virus, who will claim they are vaccinated JUST so they don't have to wear the mask.

As long as those kinds of people exist, masking will continue to be an appropriate and socially acceptable garment to adorn your face while you are inside someone else's building other than your own.

It's called setting a good example for others, being a good neighbor, being civil, and respecting the needs of others.

Perhaps you hadn't learned about these things where you grew up but that's what my mama taught ME, and that's how I roll.

[roscoguy]

Nice try ladies and gentlemen, but that IS NOT what I said. I SAID that a fully vaccinated individual WHO ACQUIRED IMMUNITY COULD NOT acquire or spread the virus. For those with reading comprehension issues, that means I EXCLUDED the 5% that you are referring to.
Here you're paraphrasing yourself from post #20: "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity)." Fully vaccinated merely means that you have received the full course of whichever version of the vaccine you were given. It does NOT mean 100% immunity. Here is the quote from the CDC you're stuck on "All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19 as seen in clinical trial settings." See 100% anywhere in there? Nope, me either.

Although you did change your phrasing somewhat in post #32 ("Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!"), it's still counter to what the 'efficacy' of the vaccine actually is (which you seem to believe is interchangeable with 'immunity'). Here is a link to a TIME article which explains what 'efficacy' & 'effectiveness' actually mean: Breaking Down What COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Means | Time (https://time.com/5945177/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness/) The meat of the article ..."it’s important to understand what these companies were actually measuring to come up with their efficacy numbers. In the case of the COVID-19 vaccines, the researchers were measuring how well their vaccines protected against symptoms of COVID-19. So their vaccine efficacy numbers refer to how well they lowered people’s chance of getting sick with COVID-19. Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine is 95% efficacious, meaning that for vaccinated people, it was 95% efficacious in protecting people from getting COVID-19 symptoms. It does not mean that 95% of people vaccinated won’t get COVID-19 and 5% will." Which is the same way I've read & heard it explained several times. There's more to this article but I don't want to be a spoiler. :icon_wink:

Do I need to quote the CDC again????? Or is the paragraph above clear enough? OR SHOULD I SHOUT LOUDER????

Now that I explained why I am right and you are wrong-----I'll explain what you read on the CDC site but failed to understand.....and I'll just use an example to explain.

If 100 people are "fully vaccinated", SOME of them can still acquire and spread the virus, but likely will get less ill and are less likely to die. THESE are the 5%.

So yes, if you word it that way, fully vaccinated individuals can acquire and spread the disease.

But I was referring to the 95%. These people were fully vaccinated AND FULLY IMMUNE. So to shout it once again for those that are heard of hearing, THESE PEOPLE CANNOT GET OR SPREAD COVID. And once again, PERIOD!

I can't make it any simpler than that.

So thanks to those that tried to muddy the water with "their own reading" and then formed their own mutual admiration society thanking each other for their "contributions".
Maybe you need to do a little more reading & less shouting? :MOJE_whot:

[golfing eagles]

Here you're paraphrasing yourself from post #20: "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! (This does not include the 5% who do not acquire immunity)." Fully vaccinated merely means that you have received the full course of whichever version of the vaccine you were given. It does NOT mean 100% immunity. Here is the quote from the CDC you're stuck on "All COVID-19 vaccines currently available in the United States are effective at preventing COVID-19 as seen in clinical trial settings." See 100% anywhere in there? Nope, me either.

Although you did change your phrasing somewhat in post #32 ("Again, a fully vaccinated and immune person CANNOT get and CANNOT spread COVID. PERIOD!!!!!"), it's still counter to what the 'efficacy' of the vaccine actually is (which you seem to believe is interchangeable with 'immunity'). Here is a link to a TIME article which explains what 'efficacy' & 'effectiveness' actually mean: Breaking Down What COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Means | Time (https://time.com/5945177/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness/) The meat of the article ..."it’s important to understand what these companies were actually measuring to come up with their efficacy numbers. In the case of the COVID-19 vaccines, the researchers were measuring how well their vaccines protected against symptoms of COVID-19. So their vaccine efficacy numbers refer to how well they lowered people’s chance of getting sick with COVID-19. Pfizer-BioNTech’s vaccine is 95% efficacious, meaning that for vaccinated people, it was 95% efficacious in protecting people from getting COVID-19 symptoms. It does not mean that 95% of people vaccinated won’t get COVID-19 and 5% will." Which is the same way I've read & heard it explained several times. There's more to this article but I don't want to be a spoiler. :icon_wink:


Maybe you need to do a little more reading & less shouting? :MOJE_whot:

Maybe you need a little more reading comprehension and less attempts at reading material that is clearly over your head. If you read the context, you would know that 95% was implied in everything I wrote.

Please stop trying to compete with me concerning medical issues, you're only embarrassing yourself. Absolutely amazing---an amateur layperson googles a few items and then wants to lecture an expert. Boy, I love the internet

[Tmarkwald]

...

[Tmarkwald]

All my own reading & research on the CDC site and many others says that fully vaccinated people may still carry the virus and may still transmit it.


Maybe you need a little more reading comprehension and less attempts at reading material that is clearly over your head. If you read the context, you would know that 95% was implied in everything I wrote.

Everyone should know the 95% immunity percentage by now.

[roscoguy]

Maybe you need a little more reading comprehension and less attempts at reading material that is clearly over your head. If you read the context, you would know that 95% was implied in everything I wrote.

Please stop trying to compete with me concerning medical issues, you're only embarrassing yourself. Absolutely amazing---an amateur layperson googles a few items and then wants to lecture an expert. Boy, I love the internet
My reading comprehension is just fine. Yours? Maybe a bit less. The 95% figure is, again, NOT the number of people who will get the virus. Please re-read the quote from the TIME article I referred to in post #68. It's very important that you understand this distinction.

OK, let's go back to my original suggestion (in post #11) & see what happens. Search for "can a vaccinated person infect someone else with covid."

Hit #1: Study asks if vaccinated people can still transmit virus, Fauci says | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/study-asks-if-vaccinated-people-can-still-transmit-virus-fauci-says) Read it if you want but the gist is that there is no definitive answer.

Hit #2: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://news.yahoo.com/vaccinated-people-still-spread-coronavirus-132459271.html) contains this "Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #3: Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-02-07/covid-q-a-can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-virus) in part says this: "We think of vaccines as working by preventing the transmission of a disease. But that isn't necessarily the case.
“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program."

Hit #4: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://theconversation.com/can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-coronavirus-155095) Here's a quote, "1. Does vaccination completely prevent infection?
The short answer is no. You can still get infected after you’ve been vaccinated. But your chances of getting seriously ill are almost zero.
Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #5: Can I infect someone after I’ve received the COVID-19 vaccine? - Mayo Clinic (https://www.mayoclinic.org/can-i-infect-someone-after-receiving-the-covid-19-vaccine/vid-20507040) offers this: "Andrew Badley, M.D., COVID-19 Research Task Force Chair, Mayo Clinic: What we know the vaccine does is it prevents symptomatic disease. What we don't know if it does or not is to prevent infection. And if you are infected, but you don't get sick because of the vaccine, you can still replicate the virus and transmit the virus."

I can go on, but it would only be wasting everybody's time. Feel free to point out any errors in MY reading comprehension of any of these, or provide any other reputable sources to back your specious argument.

[golfing eagles]

My reading comprehension is just fine. Yours? Maybe a bit less. The 95% figure is, again, NOT the number of people who will get the virus. Please re-read the quote from the TIME article I referred to in post #68. It's very important that you understand this distinction.

OK, let's go back to my original suggestion (in post #11) & see what happens. Search for "can a vaccinated person infect someone else with covid."

Hit #1: Study asks if vaccinated people can still transmit virus, Fauci says | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/study-asks-if-vaccinated-people-can-still-transmit-virus-fauci-says) Read it if you want but the gist is that there is no definitive answer.

Hit #2: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://news.yahoo.com/vaccinated-people-still-spread-coronavirus-132459271.html) contains this "Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #3: Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-02-07/covid-q-a-can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-virus) in part says this: "We think of vaccines as working by preventing the transmission of a disease. But that isn't necessarily the case.
“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program."

Hit #4: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://theconversation.com/can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-coronavirus-155095) Here's a quote, "1. Does vaccination completely prevent infection?
The short answer is no. You can still get infected after you’ve been vaccinated. But your chances of getting seriously ill are almost zero.
Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #5: Can I infect someone after I’ve received the COVID-19 vaccine? - Mayo Clinic (https://www.mayoclinic.org/can-i-infect-someone-after-receiving-the-covid-19-vaccine/vid-20507040) offers this: "Andrew Badley, M.D., COVID-19 Research Task Force Chair, Mayo Clinic: What we know the vaccine does is it prevents symptomatic disease. What we don't know if it does or not is to prevent infection. And if you are infected, but you don't get sick because of the vaccine, you can still replicate the virus and transmit the virus."

I can go on, but it would only be wasting everybody's time. Feel free to point out any errors in MY reading comprehension of any of these, or provide any other reputable sources to back your specious argument.

First thing you got right:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

I would stop right there, but you still don't understand. You have cherry picked quotes that are referring to the vaccinated population as a whole----so yes, there are vaccinated people who can acquire and transmit the virus---a small percentage of them. And yes, you are correct in pointing out efficacy and immunity are 2 different things, because that was the study design for these vaccines. Since a positive antibody test after vaccination is NOT a good measure of immunity, I can't think of a better study metric than symptomatic disease.

HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of those vaccinated will acquire immunity and be unable to spread the disease----that is the whole point of a massive vaccination program, once you stop parsing words.

Also read between the lines. The vast majority of these researchers outside the pharmaceutical companies are dependent on federal funding, and the outcome the feds want at this time is continued mask wearing. You connect the dots.

[Tmarkwald]

My reading comprehension is just fine. Yours? Maybe a bit less. The 95% figure is, again, NOT the number of people who will get the virus. Please re-read the quote from the TIME article I referred to in post #68. It's very important that you understand this distinction.

OK, let's go back to my original suggestion (in post #11) & see what happens. Search for "can a vaccinated person infect someone else with covid."

Hit #1: Study asks if vaccinated people can still transmit virus, Fauci says | PBS NewsHour (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/study-asks-if-vaccinated-people-can-still-transmit-virus-fauci-says) Read it if you want but the gist is that there is no definitive answer.

Hit #2: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://news.yahoo.com/vaccinated-people-still-spread-coronavirus-132459271.html) contains this "Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #3: Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-02-07/covid-q-a-can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-virus) in part says this: "We think of vaccines as working by preventing the transmission of a disease. But that isn't necessarily the case.
“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program."

Hit #4: Can vaccinated people still spread the coronavirus? (https://theconversation.com/can-vaccinated-people-still-spread-the-coronavirus-155095) Here's a quote, "1. Does vaccination completely prevent infection?
The short answer is no. You can still get infected after you’ve been vaccinated. But your chances of getting seriously ill are almost zero.
Many people think vaccines work like a shield, blocking a virus from infecting cells altogether. But in most cases, a person who gets vaccinated is protected from disease, not necessarily infection."

Hit #5: Can I infect someone after I’ve received the COVID-19 vaccine? - Mayo Clinic (https://www.mayoclinic.org/can-i-infect-someone-after-receiving-the-covid-19-vaccine/vid-20507040) offers this: "Andrew Badley, M.D., COVID-19 Research Task Force Chair, Mayo Clinic: What we know the vaccine does is it prevents symptomatic disease. What we don't know if it does or not is to prevent infection. And if you are infected, but you don't get sick because of the vaccine, you can still replicate the virus and transmit the virus."

I can go on, but it would only be wasting everybody's time. Feel free to point out any errors in MY reading comprehension of any of these, or provide any other reputable sources to back your specious argument.

At the end of the day - do we care?

Are we willing to give up our liberties to protect someone who is foolish enough to refuse the vaccine?

Saying that the vaccine isn't 100% effective - again, who cares?

Simple truth is - if you get vaccinated you are as protected as you can get.

I really don't see why we all spend the time quibbling about this. What's the end point? What are we trying to accomplish?

I had Covid. I got vaccinated as well. I chose life.

You can sit at home and do whatever it is to protect yourself because, as altruistic as I am, I can't fix stupid. And I am sure there are others that feel the same.

[golfing eagles]

I think we can finally put this academic and semantic debate to rest. The CDC just announced that only 0.008% of vaccinated individuals became infected with COVID.

So, to repeat my earlier statements, these people cannot acquire and spread COVID. No need to even shout it anymore.

Final score: Medical professionals 1, amateurs with google, 0:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Tmarkwald]

I think we can finally put this academic and semantic debate to rest. The CDC just announced that only 0.008% of vaccinated individuals became infected with COVID.

So, to repeat my earlier statements, these people cannot acquire and spread COVID. No need to even shout it anymore.

Final score: Medical professionals 1, amateurs with google, 0:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

And, of those .008%, I'll wager they were nearly all, if not all, in the 5% group that did not get immunity from the vaccine. So, 'fully vaccinated' only means you got the vaccine, not that it actually was effective on you.

Good posts, BTW. Glad to see clarity. Too many people are like mushrooms.

[Stu from NYC]

And, of those .008%, I'll wager they were nearly all, if not all, in the 5% group that did not get immunity from the vaccine. So, 'fully vaccinated' only means you got the vaccine, not that it actually was effective on you.

Good posts, BTW. Glad to see clarity. Too many people are like mushrooms.

That is why the test for the virus and require vaccinations.

[cj1040]

This is one if the very few comments that make sense and that we totally agree with. Also remember that there are new strains of virus that might be more deadly and perhaps resistant to the vaccines we have had. Caution is still needed.

[Two Bills]

100+ Forged Covid test certificates are being found by Customs Border Control at UK airports per day.
One of the big givaways on many of the forged certificates was, the forger had spelt Negative wrong!

[Tmarkwald]

This is one if the very few comments that make sense and that we totally agree with. Also remember that there are new strains of virus that might be more deadly and perhaps resistant to the vaccines we have had. Caution is still needed.

There will always be new strains.

Just be careful and live life.

[DaveZ]

Reading this debate and others about Covid, masks, cruises, etc. is like watching a computer playTic Tac Toe and losing repeatedly against itself. War games; the only way to win is not to play. The only difference is that computers aren’t fallible in the game because the rules are simple so there is no chance of doing something stupid; not so much with Covid debates.

We have vaccines that if aren’t the most effective ever created, they stand alone as the best ever. 95% doesn’t mean 5% chance of catching disease, it’s less than .6% after vaccinated immunity.

It’s pointless to argue about passing a disease to someone else that you can’t catch yourself. We have no useful example of that. It’s also pointless to say that masks will be needed to protect the unvaccinated because there will always be unvaccinated people and thus masks in perpetuity.

The likely outcome of the cruise debate (and judgements) will be the same as the one about the squares, outdoor speeches, and spring breaks that ended up cats (Tic Tac Toe lingo) this week. When we relearned that a virus without a body like Covid doesn’t travel well outdoors and dire predictions of widespread death didn’t happen.

[roscoguy]

First thing you got right:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

Pretty humorous, but no, you still haven't supplied a single source for your original rant that claimed: If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!! And I'm fairly sure you didn't bother to either read the articles I posted links to or do your own version of the search that I did.

I would stop right there, but you still don't understand. You have cherry picked quotes that are referring to the vaccinated population as a whole----so yes, there are vaccinated people who can acquire and transmit the virus---a small percentage of them. And yes, you are correct in pointing out efficacy and immunity are 2 different things, because that was the study design for these vaccines. Since a positive antibody test after vaccination is NOT a good measure of immunity, I can't think of a better study metric than symptomatic disease.

Oh, I understand. (And, hey, you finally got something right, yourself (see above in red)):a040: There was no cherry picking involved, at least from my end: I provided the first 5 hits from the search I stated. When I first responded to the 'definitive statement' from Tmarkwald that said - A vaccinated person is NOT going to infect someone else. - I read through the first dozen or so, all of which concluded that nobody seems to knows for sure.
HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of those vaccinated will acquire immunity and be unable to spread the disease----that is the whole point of a massive vaccination program, once you stop parsing words.


Ooops, the 'overwhelming majority' seems just a little bit less positive than all that "Period. PERIOD!!!!!" nonsense above. I'm not the one parsing words either: my original question was whether there was any backup to the opinion that Tmarkwald stated. There has been none, merely stridently expressed opinion by yourself, condescension & backtracking about what was supposedly implied when you stated positively that "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!." And I don't care about the 5% figure that you insist means having no immunity. This is flat out false, I have pointed out already.

Bottom line, the previous statement by T was DEFINITIVE Actual bottom line: still a nope.

[Tmarkwald]

Pretty humorous, but no, you still haven't supplied a single source for your original rant that claimed: And I'm fairly sure you didn't bother to either read the articles I posted links to or do your own version of the search that I did.



Oh, I understand. (And, hey, you finally got something right, yourself (see above in red)):a040: There was no cherry picking involved, at least from my end: I provided the first 5 hits from the search I stated. When I first responded to the 'definitive statement' from Tmarkwald that said - - I read through the first dozen or so, all of which concluded that nobody seems to knows for sure.


Ooops, the 'overwhelming majority' seems just a little bit less positive than all that "Period. PERIOD!!!!!" nonsense above. I'm not the one parsing words either: my original question was whether there was any backup to the opinion that Tmarkwald stated. There has been none, merely stridently expressed opinion by yourself, condescension & backtracking about what was supposedly implied when you stated positively that "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!." And I don't care about the 5% figure that you insist means having no immunity. This is flat out false, I have pointed out already.

Actual bottom line: still a nope.

I feel like I've joined a debating club!

HOWEVER - this seems pretty intersting:

If you get the vaccine but later test positive for COVID-19, that is proof that you did not mount a response to the vaccine.

If the coronavirus vaccine is 95% effective, how will you know if you’re in the other 5%? - cleveland.com (https://www.cleveland.com/coronavirus/2021/01/if-the-coronavirus-vaccine-is-95-effective-how-will-you-know-if-youre-in-the-other-5.html)

[golfing eagles]

Pretty humorous, but no, you still haven't supplied a single source for your original rant that claimed: And I'm fairly sure you didn't bother to either read the articles I posted links to or do your own version of the search that I did.



Oh, I understand. (And, hey, you finally got something right, yourself (see above in red)):a040: There was no cherry picking involved, at least from my end: I provided the first 5 hits from the search I stated. When I first responded to the 'definitive statement' from Tmarkwald that said - - I read through the first dozen or so, all of which concluded that nobody seems to knows for sure.


Ooops, the 'overwhelming majority' seems just a little bit less positive than all that "Period. PERIOD!!!!!" nonsense above. I'm not the one parsing words either: my original question was whether there was any backup to the opinion that Tmarkwald stated. There has been none, merely stridently expressed opinion by yourself, condescension & backtracking about what was supposedly implied when you stated positively that "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!." And I don't care about the 5% figure that you insist means having no immunity. This is flat out false, I have pointed out already.

Actual bottom line: still a nope.

Amazing. I guess you haven't kept up with current events, including my last post. For those that remain hard of hearing, I'll repeat it. THE CDC ANNOUNCED THAT ONLY 0.008% OF THOSE VACCINATED BECAME INFECTED WITH COVID

The debate is OVER. You and the other members of your mutual admiration society LOST, not that you ever had a chance to begin with, it was more like taking candy from a baby.:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

PS: I hope you guys know I was just toying around with you.

[peachpit]

Amen and Amen, Could someone tell the CDC this so we can cruise again. I've been on land for 14 months. Enough already.

[golfing eagles]

Amen and Amen, Could someone tell the CDC this so we can cruise again. I've been on land for 14 months. Enough already.

The 0.008% statement came from the CDC

[peachpit]

Where's this so called CDC located. I need to camp out on their front porch until they let me cruise again.

[golfing eagles]

Where's this so called CDC located. I need to camp out on their front porch until they let me cruise again.

1600 Clifton Rd, Atlanta, GA.

It's essentially on the campus of Emory University, and quite an impressive facility

[roscoguy]

Amazing. I guess you haven't kept up with current events, including my last post. For those that remain hard of hearing, I'll repeat it. THE CDC ANNOUNCED THAT ONLY 0.008% OF THOSE VACCINATED BECAME INFECTED WITH COVID

The debate is OVER. You and the other members of your mutual admiration society LOST, not that you ever had a chance to begin with, it was more like taking candy from a baby.:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

PS: I hope you guys know I was just toying around with you.

Maybe what's actually amazing is that you somehow looked 2 days into the future & found this information back on 4/14, when you originally launched your diatribe regarding my question to another user. And, again :ohdear:, your unfounded opinion that "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!" was never more than that. :blahblahblah: Kind of like the invalid assertion that getting the full vaccine regimen somehow guaranteed total, absolute, perfect, 100% immunity to the lucky 95% of recipients. (A college education is a terrible thing to waste... :sad:) There's actually a lot of good information available on the internet if you know how to search for it.

My guess is that you may well be experienced with taking candy from kids, but you proved nothing here. Actual score: Mutual Admiration Society - 1, Deluded 'expert' - 0. If, I repeat if, the latest numbers regarding infections of the fully vaccinated had been available & presented 2 or 3 days ago (as opposed to the string of "PLEEEEZEE!!!!! ... Period. PERIOD!" junk), I'd have said, "OK, close enough to zero for me. Carry on."

Joking? Oh, heck yeah. Me too...

[golfing eagles]

Maybe what's actually amazing is that you somehow looked 2 days into the future & found this information back on 4/14, when you originally launched your diatribe regarding my question to another user. And, again :ohdear:, your unfounded opinion that "If you are fully vaccinated you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!" was never more than that. :blahblahblah: Kind of like the invalid assertion that getting the full vaccine regimen somehow guaranteed total, absolute, perfect, 100% immunity to the lucky 95% of recipients. (A college education is a terrible thing to waste... :sad:) There's actually a lot of good information available on the internet if you know how to search for it.

My guess is that you may well be experienced with taking candy from kids, but you proved nothing here. Actual score: Mutual Admiration Society - 1, Deluded 'expert' - 0. If, I repeat if, the latest numbers regarding infections of the fully vaccinated had been available & presented 2 or 3 days ago (as opposed to the string of "PLEEEEZEE!!!!! ... Period. PERIOD!" junk), I'd have said, "OK, close enough to zero for me. Carry on."

Joking? Oh, heck yeah. Me too...

Sorry, but it was pretty obvious from the type of vaccine, it's mechanism of action and the nature of coronaviruses in general that the outcome would be what it was. The only thing that surprised me was HOW EFFECTIVE the vaccine was in the real world.

As far as your posts, of course you're joking. If you were serious you'd be suffering from advanced dementia

[roscoguy]

Sorry, but it was pretty obvious from the type of vaccine, it's mechanism of action and the nature of coronaviruses in general that the outcome would be what it was. The only thing that surprised me was HOW EFFECTIVE the vaccine was in the real world. Obvious to you but no recognized authorities? Right... :1rotfl::1rotfl:

As far as your posts, of course you're joking. If you were serious you'd be suffering from advanced dementia Likewise, I knew you couldn't actually believe that drivel you wrote unless your degree came in a box of Cracker Jacks. :icon_wink: The bottom line still is that a vaccinated person CAN infect someone else, even if the odds are against it. (This was the original difference of opinion, if you recall) You threw in the "fully vaccinated" as well as took the imperious position that "you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!"

Looking at the numbers you most recently posted from another perspective, and totally disregarding to extent what these 5800 were "infected", that means you have roughly a 1 in 13,000 chance of still getting Covid. Fairly long odds, but nowhere near vanishingly small, I'm sure you'd agree. :ho:

[golfing eagles]

Obvious to you but no recognized authorities? Right... :1rotfl::1rotfl:

Likewise, I knew you couldn't actually believe that drivel you wrote unless your degree came in a box of Cracker Jacks. :icon_wink: The bottom line still is that a vaccinated person CAN infect someone else, even if the odds are against it. (This was the original difference of opinion, if you recall) You threw in the "fully vaccinated" as well as took the imperious position that "you CANNOT get the virus, you CANNOT spread the virus, and you CANNOT infect others. Period. PERIOD!!!!!"

Looking at the numbers you most recently posted from another perspective, and totally disregarding to extent what these 5800 were "infected", that means you have roughly a 1 in 13,000 chance of still getting Covid. Fairly long odds, but nowhere near vanishingly small, I'm sure you'd agree. :ho:

It's easier to snatch a bone back from a Doberman than for you to admit defeat and move on. 0.008%---seriously, you can't be hanging on to that as a chance of getting and spreading COVID.

[bobdeb]

My neck is getting a workout watching this tennis match...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

.0008 is infinitely larger than 0.

There's "no chance"
there's "virtually no chance"
there's "essentially no chance" "barely any chance at all" "nearly impossible" - the only difference between any of these terms, is that "no chance" means "no chance." All the others mean "at least some chance."

.008 is not "no chance." It is "at least some chance." No matter how minute, anything higher than 0 is still - higher than 0.

[golfing eagles]

.0008 is infinitely larger than 0.

There's "no chance"
there's "virtually no chance"
there's "essentially no chance" "barely any chance at all" "nearly impossible" - the only difference between any of these terms, is that "no chance" means "no chance." All the others mean "at least some chance."

.008 is not "no chance." It is "at least some chance." No matter how minute, anything higher than 0 is still - higher than 0.

You too? I expected better from you.:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Bill14564]

.0008 is infinitely larger than 0.

There's "no chance"
there's "virtually no chance"
there's "essentially no chance" "barely any chance at all" "nearly impossible" - the only difference between any of these terms, is that "no chance" means "no chance." All the others mean "at least some chance."

.008 is not "no chance." It is "at least some chance." No matter how minute, anything higher than 0 is still - higher than 0.

The words "hotels.com" flashed through my mind at this.

If we take .008% and multiply that by the population of the US we would get 26,400. That number is pretty close to the number of deaths expected from a typical flu season. But the .008% number is not the rate of deaths after vaccination, it is the rate of infection after vaccination. The rate of deaths is about 1.2% of those infected or 337.

So if everyone in the US was vaccinated but somehow the virus was still circulating then with the numbers recently reported by the CDC, there might be 26,400 breakthrough cases and 337 deaths.

Of course 337 is not zero, but it is less than one half the current daily count, 100 times less than the 35,000 we expect from flu, and almost 2,000 times less than the current count of 560,000. Compared to the 2M to 4M that was projected a year ago, 337 is pretty close to zero.

[roscoguy]

It's easier to snatch a bone back from a Doberman than for you to admit defeat and move on. 0.008%---seriously, you can't be hanging on to that as a chance of getting and spreading COVID.

1 in 13,000 is defeat? Not at all. By that 'logic', one could say that one CANNOT get a blood clot from the J&J vaccine. Period. PERIOD!!!!!, which is more than 70 times more likely, given the last data that I've heard. You prefer to use the percentage number, perhaps because it sounds so much smaller than the rate of incidence. The trouble is, 1/13000 or .008% are both greater than '...CANNOT ... Period. PERIOD!!!!!'. Don't ya' hate it when math & reality come together to smack down your victory dance?

Well, honestly, dock, I'm glad to know that you can take a good-natured ribbing, :icon_wink: but we've worn this discussion out! Let's just agree that you were wrong & move on. :thumbup:

[golfing eagles]

1 in 13,000 is defeat? Not at all. By that 'logic', one could say that one CANNOT get a blood clot from the J&J vaccine. Period. PERIOD!!!!!, which is more than 70 times more likely, given the last data that I've heard. You prefer to use the percentage number, perhaps because it sounds so much smaller than the rate of incidence. The trouble is, 1/13000 or .008% are both greater than '...CANNOT ... Period. PERIOD!!!!!'. Don't ya' hate it when math & reality come together to smack down your victory dance?

Well, honestly, dock, I'm glad to know that you can take a good-natured ribbing, :icon_wink: but we've worn this discussion out! Let's just agree that you were wrong & move on. :thumbup:

Well, yes, but clearly YOU are the one who is wrong! (You cannot extrapolate group epidemiologic data and apply it to a few individuals)

[Bay Kid]

Heading to my boat today for a little cruise on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay. Drinks included.

[billethkid]

Working at 6 or more decimal places one can make a case for/against/about anything.

An obvious percentage risk tolerance/acceptance is that of being killed or maimed in an auto accident.....every time one gets in the car.....and this one is in very large whole numbers

Introduction - Injury Facts (https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/introduction/)

[roscoguy]

Well, yes, but clearly YOU are the one who is wrong

The old "I know you are, but what am I?" defense, eh? Well, everyone knows there's no counter to that!! :bowdown: :a20:

[tvbound]

1 in 13,000 is defeat? Not at all. By that 'logic', one could say that one CANNOT get a blood clot from the J&J vaccine. Period. PERIOD!!!!!, which is more than 70 times more likely, given the last data that I've heard. You prefer to use the percentage number, perhaps because it sounds so much smaller than the rate of incidence. The trouble is, 1/13000 or .008% are both greater than '...CANNOT ... Period. PERIOD!!!!!'. Don't ya' hate it when math & reality come together to smack down your victory dance?

Well, honestly, dock, I'm glad to know that you can take a good-natured ribbing, :icon_wink: but we've worn this discussion out! Let's just agree that you were wrong & move on. :thumbup:

"Let's just agree that you were wrong & move on. :thumbup:"

That could be difficult, when someone is prone to deal in absolutes such as -

"BTW, ever notice that when someone is driving 50 in the far left lane of an interstate, or making a parking turn, or sleeping at a green light they are ALWAYS driving a Prius???"

[Two Bills]

Well!
That was interesting.
Off to de-flea the daughters cat.
Definitely a bigger than 5% chance I am going to get savaged.
Give me vaccinated Covid odds any day!

[golfing eagles]

Well!
That was interesting.
Off to de-flea the daughters cat.
Definitely a bigger than 5% chance I am going to get savaged.
Give me vaccinated Covid odds any day!

Not really.

It was more like someone sitting in a concert hall waiting for an encore 3 hours after the lights went out and the janitor went home. The show is over, there's no more music, there was never going to be any more, but yet there they sit, completely baffled that their favorite song was a flop.:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

PS. Always a Prius was a hyperbole, but I feel safe in stating that it is a Prius more often than the percentage of Priuses on the road.

[Malsua]

This whole tennis match I found quite amusing.

People that repeat the "you can still give it if you're vaccinated" simply don't understand how immunity works on a cellular level. I would also go further as to say that even among the 5% there is _SOME_ immune response. It's a spectrum, not binary.

Using the .008 number, which strikes me as about right and adding in the chance of dying, you're starting to get out into the Six Sigma area. For people who don't understand what 6 deviations from the mean, means, this is that flat area of a bell curve, way, way out at the end.

The airline industry safety profile is at about six sigma, at least major carriers in western countries anyway. People have no problem getting on airplanes every day, but sure, some still do crash.

It reminds me of the scene from Dumb and Dumber.


LLOYD (CONT.)
I'm gonna ask you something flat out
and I want you to answer me honestly:
What do you think the chances are of
a girl like you and a guy like me
ending up together?

Mary is obviously thrown by this question.

MARY
Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I
mean we hardly --

LLOYD
--I asked you to be honest, Mary.

MARY
But Lloyd, I really can't --

LLOYD
--Come on, give it to me straight. I
drove a long way to see you, the
least you can do is level with me.
What are my chances?

MARY
Not good.

BEAT

LLOYD
You mean not good, like one out of a
hundred?

MARY
I'd say more like one out of a
million.

BEAT

LLOYD
(Duh)
So you're telling me there's a
chance?

[kkingston57]

I can not count how many different opinions I have seen regarding going vs not going on this forum. Logical minds need to come to an agreement, including De Santis.

He wants to re open cruise ships and in the same breath he wants to tell private businesses that they can not mandate customers to be all vaccinated. I do feel that I would feel safe on a ship where every person is vaccinated and masks are optional.

[Tmarkwald]

This whole tennis match I found quite amusing.

People that repeat the "you can still give it if you're vaccinated" simply don't understand how immunity works on a cellular level. I would also go further as to say that even among the 5% there is _SOME_ immune response. It's a spectrum, not binary.

Using the .008 number, which strikes me as about right and adding in the chance of dying, you're starting to get out into the Six Sigma area. For people who don't understand what 6 deviations from the mean, means, this is that flat area of a bell curve, way, way out at the end.

The airline industry safety profile is at about six sigma, at least major carriers in western countries anyway. People have no problem getting on airplanes every day, but sure, some still do crash.

It reminds me of the scene from Dumb and Dumber.


LLOYD (CONT.)
I'm gonna ask you something flat out
and I want you to answer me honestly:
What do you think the chances are of
a girl like you and a guy like me
ending up together?

Mary is obviously thrown by this question.

MARY
Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I
mean we hardly --

LLOYD
--I asked you to be honest, Mary.

MARY
But Lloyd, I really can't --

LLOYD
--Come on, give it to me straight. I
drove a long way to see you, the
least you can do is level with me.
What are my chances?

MARY
Not good.

BEAT

LLOYD
You mean not good, like one out of a
hundred?

MARY
I'd say more like one out of a
million.

BEAT

LLOYD
(Duh)
So you're telling me there's a
chance?

HA HA HA - you stole my thunder! I was looking for the film script to post the VERY SAME THING! HA HA - great analogy. Bravo!

[Malsua]

HA HA HA - you stole my thunder! I was looking for the film script to post the VERY SAME THING! HA HA - great analogy. Bravo!

Every time I read "but there's still a chance" that quote fired off in my head. lol.

I was just going to post the .gif of it, but considering the audience here at TOTV, I figured the entire script dialog would put it into context a little better.

As to chances, even among those that get the disease 2 weeks post second shot, I'm willing to bet that the amount of viral shedding from those people is significantly less than an unvaxxed person. It is almost impossible not to have some immune reaction to a vaccine. If your immune system is trashed, you're not long for this Earth. Which means a vaccinated person next to an unvaccinated person, both showing identical symptoms, the vaxxer sheds less because the immune system is attenuating shed. I.E. Vaxxed = less contagious even if they are sick. This is all a spectrum though, extremes exist for sure but they aren't the nominal cases as far as shed goes.