Defense for anti-vaxxers hindering herd immunity?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

What do you all think? If the percent of unvaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.

[Garywt]

We will continue as we are for a long time, masks, distancing and who knows what else.

[Aces4]

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.


Another reason you missed... some were forced to work through the full pandemic with people around them going out occasionally from work with covid. They make more than minimum wages but lower middle income. They are younger, survived and don’t want the vaccination at this point. For all they know, they’ve had it and were asymptomatic. They aren’t home collecting the lovely handouts for not working.

[coffeebean]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

[Bay Kid]

If you had your shots by now you should be able to go back to normal. Those that haven't had their shots should just stay inside or take your chances, but don't penalize others.

[Malsua]

Some "reasons":


5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)


ADE is anti-body dependent enhancement. It essentially allows a pathogen to bypass the immune system and effects can range from rashes to death. ADE rarely occurs due to natural viruses, Dengue being the notable exception. ADE rarely happens with vaccines in which there is wide community exposure to the native pathogen. When a vaccine is known to trigger ADE, the production and distribution of that vaccine is halted immediately.

If you have natural immunity to a specific pathogen, there is no advantage to getting a vaccine and there is a significant potential downside.

All that said, there is ZERO evidence that SAR-COV2 or in fact any coronaviruses cause or trigger ADE.

If anything, a single dose of any of the vaccines(I personally would avoid the AstraZeneca, but it's not available here in the US anyway) is probably a good idea as a booster.

If you have had Covid, specially with any level of symptoms, the chances of you having full immunity are very high, higher than a vaccine would be my guess, but studies would be necessary to validate that.

If you simply had a positive test without symptoms, a full 2 shot course would be a good idea.

If you had symptomatic covid and are an allergic type person, avoid the shot, it's not worth it.

Finally, if you are pregnant or about to become pregnant, maybe you should hold off. There simply is no information readily available as to how the vaccine may affect a fetus. Not saying it's good or bad, simply that it's unknown. I've seen anecdotes both ways, got the virus, got the shot, baby fine. Fair enough. If it were my child, I'd hold off because the risk of the disease to a child bearing age woman is pretty low.

[billethkid]

They become an increasingly vulnerable group.
At some point that will become obvious to some and change their stance.

[Aces4]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.


I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.

[oldtimes]

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

I would agree with this if it were not an international problem. I do however agree that the government should not be able to mandate this given the lack of actual data and what they are discovering about new side effects and every day we are now hearing about people who got the vaccine and still got Covid and died. There is still too much they just don't know.

[Bucco]

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

The last few years, we simply distort reality.

This is typical distorting the reality of public safety measures in order to perpetuate an ‘alternate reality’.

It utterly misses the fact that your rights as an individual do not supplant the rights of the community as a whole.

[GrumpyOldMan]

If you had your shots by now you should be able to go back to normal. Those that haven't had their shots should just stay inside or take your chances, but don't penalize others.

This is not true. Just because you have both shots you should NOT "go back to normal".

The evidence is still not clear and in life and death matters it is better to err on the side of caution.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

The issues are international, not local politics. Not local.

I will always accept the opinion of experts over "feelings".

[Aces4]

The last few years, we simply distort reality.

This is typical distorting the reality of public safety measures in order to perpetuate an ‘alternate reality’.

It utterly misses the fact that your rights as an individual do not supplant the rights of the community as a whole.

Lol, nothing is “supplanted”. If the vaccine is as effective as declared, unvaccinated people will have no effect on the vaccinated. That “community” will have their butts covered, right? That’s where the distortion begins, when the government tells citizens it knows what is best for them.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

I agree. There is a difference between dying from Covid and dying with Covid.

I have an uncle that died with Covid. He was 93 years old. He went into the hospital for a heart condition. After surgery he was sent to rehab where he fell and broke his hip. After that he was told that he had contracted Covid and he died shortly thereafter.

The problem is that who knows if the Coivd killed him or if his death was the result of his heart surgery or even the broken hip. I've heard many cases of elderly people dying shortly after breaking a hip.

In the case of my uncle, an autopsy was not performed so the cause of deaths was listed as Covid. But who knows? He was 93. He could have died of natural causes.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Another reason you missed... some were forced to work through the full pandemic with people around them going out occasionally from work with covid. They make more than minimum wages but lower middle income. They are younger, survived and don’t want the vaccination at this point. For all they know, they’ve had it and were asymptomatic. They aren’t home collecting the lovely handouts for not working.

I don't consider that a reason mostly because I fall squarely into that category of people, and I got vaccinated.

I'm younger (not even 60 yet). I worked at Publix from February 2020 til mid-December 2020, making more than minimum wage (I started at $13.20 and asked to transfer to a lower-paying department because me + stocking shelves = not a good match, final pay was $11/hour). I'm SURE I was exposed to it, there were enough people who refused to mask or social distance, who came in with the sniffles or just had something stuck in their throat and were coughing while I was bagging their groceries, etc. I'm sure if I had left there saying I was too worried about Covid, I could've taken advantage of the PEUC money and unemployment compensation.

But I left because I developed bursitis in my hip on top of osteoporosis and just can't work standing still for any length of time, and the job required that I do a lot of standing still. I was honest, and chose to not even try collecting unemployment. We definitely could've used the money but eh - not worth the headache filling out the forms.

But no, I don't count people who don't "want" to get vaccinated as a "reason" for not getting vaccinated.

[Aces4]

I agree. There is a difference between dying from Covid and dying with Covid.

I have an uncle that died with Covid. He was 93 years old. He went into the hospital for a heart condition. After surgery he was sent to rehab where he fell and broke his hip. After that he was told that he had contracted Covid and he died shortly thereafter.

The problem is that who knows if the Coivd killed him or if his death was the result of his heart surgery or even the broken hip. I've heard many cases of elderly people dying shortly after breaking a hip.

In the case of my uncle, an autopsy was not performed so the cause of deaths was listed as Covid. But who knows? He was 93. He could have died of natural causes.

You’re right, the stories out there about Covid deaths are fascinating. Your uncle, God rest his soul, would have probably died from any type of flu or even pneumonia from the surgery at that point.

[njbchbum]

snipped
Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

Seems I have heard this quote before - "My body - my choice"!

[Aces4]

I don't consider that a reason mostly because I fall squarely into that category of people, and I got vaccinated.

I'm younger (not even 60 yet). I worked at Publix from February 2020 til mid-December 2020, making more than minimum wage (I started at $13.20 and asked to transfer to a lower-paying department because me + stocking shelves = not a good match, final pay was $11/hour). I'm SURE I was exposed to it, there were enough people who refused to mask or social distance, who came in with the sniffles or just had something stuck in their throat and were coughing while I was bagging their groceries, etc. I'm sure if I had left there saying I was too worried about Covid, I could've taken advantage of the PEUC money and unemployment compensation.

But I left because I developed bursitis in my hip on top of osteoporosis and just can't work standing still for any length of time, and the job required that I do a lot of standing still. I was honest, and chose to not even try collecting unemployment. We definitely could've used the money but eh - not worth the headache filling out the forms.

But no, I don't count people who don't "want" to get vaccinated as a "reason" for not getting vaccinated.


Try working in a factory with average temps between high eighties to the nineties doing heavy lifting and forced to wear a face mask. They didn’t have the luxury of opting to stay home.

If they don’t want the vaccine, they have my support even though I have had both doses months ago.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Seems I have heard this quote before - "My body - my choice"!

That phrase pertains to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body, with regards to pregnancy.

Unless you can catch pregnancy from a pregnant woman, that phrase doesn't apply. At all. Not even a little, almost.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Try working in a factory with average temps between high eighties to the nineties doing heavy lifting and forced to wear a face mask.

If they don’t want the vaccine, they have my support even though I have had both doses months ago.

I worked outside, in blistering hot 90-degree weather when the humidity was visible in the air, for 6 hours a day, yanking shopping carts from the parking lot and rolling them over a blacktop so hot you'd get 2nd degree burns on your feet if you tried walking barefoot on the shift, and I had to wear a face mask. And gloves.

"I don't want to" is not an excuse to not vaccinate. It's not even a reason. It's childish.

[Aces4]

I worked outside, in blistering hot 90-degree weather when the humidity was visible in the air, for 6 hours a day, yanking shopping carts from the parking lot and rolling them over a blacktop so hot you'd get 2nd degree burns on your feet if you tried walking barefoot on the shift, and I had to wear a face mask. And gloves.

"I don't want to" is not an excuse to not vaccinate. It's not even a reason. It's childish.

What is childish is the hysterical attempt to vaccinate everyone when the death numbers are questionable and the final effects of the untested vaccine aren’t in. Unless you recovered carts from the lot all day long 40 hrs a week with additional mandatory overtime, there is no comparison.

[Aces4]

That phrase pertains to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body, with regards to pregnancy.

Unless you can catch pregnancy from a pregnant woman, that phrase doesn't apply. At all. Not even a little, almost.

That phrase covers everything for everyone, can’t you see that?

[CFrance]

Seems I have heard this quote before - "My body - my choice"!
Yeah, and we're seeing where people are trying to go with that.

[Bucco]

Lol, nothing is “supplanted”. If the vaccine is as effective as declared, unvaccinated people will have no effect on the vaccinated. That “community” will have their butts covered, right? That’s where the distortion begins, when the government tells citizens it knows what is best for them.

I assume then you do not believe that you, as an individual, have any responsibility TO the community, and government doing what they swore an oath do do...protect the all of us is offensive.

If they did not share what they think is a threat to the "community", would you be fine with that.

I am not going to heed the advice of politicians, on line "experts" from dubious web sites, or any forum like TOTV.

[Aces4]

I assume then you do not believe that you, as an individual, have any responsibility TO the community, and government doing what they swore an oath do do...protect the all of us is offensive.

If they did not share what they think is a threat to the "community", would you be fine with that.

I am not going to heed the advice of politicians, on line "experts" from dubious web sites, or any forum like TOTV.

We have a far greater threat with the invasion of our southern border but you are fine with that?

The community that is convinced they want the vaccination is not threatened, the others are not convinced by the veiled Covid numbers and vetted vaccine and they have their American rights choice.

[RedChariot]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

Anti-vaxxers only care about themselves. Its me, me, me. All your points are well taken.

[Aces4]

Anti-vaxxers only care about themselves. Its me, me, me. All your points are well taken.

As we walk on toward the goal of loss of individual freedom...:ohdear:

[Bucco]

We have a far greater threat with the invasion of our southern border but you are fine with that?

The community that is convinced they want the vaccination is not threatened, the others are not convinced by the veiled Covid numbers and vetted vaccine and they have their American rights choice.

I am certainly not a wordsmith which is obvious, but seems to me you use a lot of what I THINK is called indefinite adjectives (far greater, not threatened, not convinced, veiled Covid numbers) ALL of them quite debatable, but that seems to be the way at present.

You know, like "people' tell me.....that kind of verbage

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.

So let me ask you this, OBB, because I value your input. You're one of the most cogent posters here, and that's saying something because this board rocks the palace!

Let's say a person has none of your "reasons." He/she, however, has read the reports that say that statistically, an aggregate 80% of Covid-infected people across all age groups, with or without comorbities, have no symptoms or mild symptoms with no long term effects.* (Millions more infected people have no or mild symptoms and don't get tested, so one can infer the chances of no symptoms or mild symptoms are ostensibly even better than 80%. Further, the fact that not everyone gets infected, far from it, increases favorable odds even more, but we'll let that one slide for now.)

So let's say that person feels that it's not worth getting an unapproved** vaccine for at most a 15% upgrade in his/her chances of an uneventful outcome (the vaccines confer about 95% assurance of no symptoms or mild symptoms). This combined with more and more reports coming in about adverse affects, and death, from the vaccine, but they may not be credible, so we'll let that one slide, too.

Further, let's say s/he is believing Fauci and others when they say that vaccinated people can still carry and shed the virus, and get reinfected. He/she is also relatively young, has no comorbidities and still observes the CDC guidelines. Does the case for vaccination further weaken? (I want to underscore the fact that the science says both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can carry the virus and pass it on, therefore its seems the claim that the unvaccinated puts the population at risk any more than the vaccinated is questionable.)

So is there a defense for the person who has made this cost/benefit analysis and decides to opt out of the vaccine but does so and possibly hinders herd immunity? Asking for a friend, and now that I think of it, are the unvaccinated even hindering herd immunity more than the vaccinated? The unvaccinated may get infected and become immune and contribute to the pool of herd immunity. Also the vaccinated, through no fault of their own, could interfere with herd immunity by getting infected, no?

*More than 80% of people with coronavirus had no symptoms: UK study (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/08/more-than-80percent-of-people-with-coronavirus-had-no-symptoms-uk-study.html)
**Approved for emergency use only. From https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/4/why-fdas-issuance-of-euas-are-not-approvals-and-wh: “Typically we think of FDA authorization as meaning that there is data and information that in the agency’s view shows the product is safe and effective for its intended use. For example, to approve a drug, FDA must determine that there is ‘substantial evidence’---consisting of adequate and well-controlled investigations---that the drug will have the effect it is intended to have. An EUA, on the other hand, can be authorized if ‘it is reasonable to believe that . . . the product may be effective.’ The EUA standard is simply a lower standard, and everyone should understand that.”

[Aces4]

I am certainly not a wordsmith which is obvious, but seems to me you use a lot of what I THINK is called indefinite adjectives (far greater, not threatened, not convinced, veiled Covid numbers) ALL of them quite debatle, but that seems to be the way at present.

You know, like "people' tell me.....that kind of verbage

Do you have any family members working in hospice, respiratory therapy, ICU? Talk to them and get some input and there are Asianthree and Golfing Eagles who posts quite often who is a professional also. But what does real experience have to do with your narrative, right?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Do you have any family members working in hospice, respiratory therapy, ICU? Talk to them and get some input and there is Golfing Eagles who posts quite often who is a professional also. But what does real experience have to do with your narrative, right?

What point are you trying to make here, Aces? That health care professionals can support the claims about the severity of the epidemic and the need for vaccination? Or refute them?

[RedChariot]

As we walk on toward the goal of loss of individual freedom...:ohdear:

Don't you realize you spreading the virus impacts the health of the community? Your individual rights are more important? The entire world is suffering. Its for the good of the whole.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

Hi Coffeebean. See my post to OBB today. Still no defense? I respect your opinion either way, but seeing a bigger picture might soften your stance. Possibly. And if not, that's fine too.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

No, that isn't a defense. Anyone can read anything on the internet to support what they WANT to do. I can find plenty of "research papers" (needs the quotation marks to emphasize how laughable that is, in context) to prove that vaccines are foolproof, that no one ever died as a direct result of a vaccine, and that the data proves that there will be 100% immunity if everyone is vaccinated.

The fact that you read this somewhere, it not a good or valid reason or defense in favor of vaccination. But you can find it on the internet.

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.

That's not research. I think people have forgotten what actual research is.

But no, reading somewhere that A=True is not a "defense" for not being vaccinated. However, I still acknowledge that they might be confused with what's true and what isn't true, and that would cause them some hesitation. I refer you back to point #1 for that.

[Aces4]

What point are you trying to make here, Aces? That health care professionals can support the claims about the severity of the epidemic and the need for vaccination? Or refute them?

You need to read the post to which I responded which in essence states I’m making up the information I shared. Did you know hospitals were reimbursed at a higher rate if the death was diagnosed from Covid. There’s more, perform an internet search for these reimbursements and ventilator usage which now may be associated with higher death rates.

Turn off the TV and get to reliable fact checker sites, do some research.

[Bucco]

No, that isn't a defense. Anyone can read anything on the internet to support what they WANT to do. I can find plenty of "research papers" (needs the quotation marks to emphasize how laughable that is, in context) to prove that vaccines are foolproof, that no one ever died as a direct result of a vaccine, and that the data proves that there will be 100% immunity if everyone is vaccinated.

The fact that you read this somewhere, it not a good or valid reason or defense in favor of vaccination. But you can find it on the internet.

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.

That's not research. I think people have forgotten what actual research is.

But no, reading somewhere that A=True is not a "defense" for not being vaccinated. However, I still acknowledge that they might be confused with what's true and what isn't true, and that would cause them some hesitation. I refer you back to point #1 for that.

You say it much better than I

We should be tired of the old "a lot of people are saying" mantra, which never ever has a factual basis, and more importantly turns out to be simply hollow talk.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The tl;dr version of that, Walrus, is that no, determining whether or not you should do what's necessary to prevent being Typhoid Mary, Covid-style, should not be dependent on your preference of statistics resources. We know the vaccine IS effective. Both science AND evidence are in agreement on this.

How long is it effective? Well - so far, it's lasted "this" long. Which is to say, over 7 months. We'll find out how much longer it lasts, as time goes by. If people are still not getting sick next year, we'll know it's lasting at least a year and 7 months. The CDC has already stated that they don't know definitively, and that a booster might at some point be necessary.

What we DO know - without a doubt - that the fewer people who are immune (or made immune via vaccine), the more likely the existing virus is to mutate and become a threat the current immunity can't fight off. That, to me, is the deciding factor. Nothing else matters, to me. I don't think we need a repeat of the last year, any time in our lifetime, or the lifetime of our children, or their children, if we can possibly prevent it.

And we DO know that the more people who are immune (or made immune via vaccine), the less likely the virus is to mutate because it needs a live host in order to do that and it can't have a live host if everyone's bodies (in layman's terms) tell the virus "not today, Satan."

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Don't you realize you spreading the virus impacts the health of the community? Your individual rights are more important? The entire world is suffering. Its for the good of the whole.

The vaccines are not FDA approved. They are approved for emergency use only. What if, let's say just what if, in the future it's determined the anti-vaxxers made the right choice by abstaining because the vaccine turned out to be unsafe after all? Just a hypothetical, I know, but it could happen. Hydroxychloroquine was approved for emergency use. And let's not forget emergency use of the Swine flu vaccine* so quickly.

*The Long Shadow of the 1976 Swine Flu Vaccine 'Fiasco'
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[GrumpyOldMan]

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.


This is very true. And most people don't realize that Google, Bing, and other search engines keep track of what you clicked on previously. If you "regularly click on liberal or conservative outlets, then the search engine is going to move those sources to the top of your search results. This results in people becoming convinced they are right because they see so much that reinforces their opinions.

[Aces4]

No, that isn't a defense. Anyone can read anything on the internet to support what they WANT to do. I can find plenty of "research papers" (needs the quotation marks to emphasize how laughable that is, in context) to prove that vaccines are foolproof, that no one ever died as a direct result of a vaccine, and that the data proves that there will be 100% immunity if everyone is vaccinated.

The fact that you read this somewhere, it not a good or valid reason or defense in favor of vaccination. But you can find it on the internet.

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.

That's not research. I think people have forgotten what actual research is.

But no, reading somewhere that A=True is not a "defense" for not being vaccinated. However, I still acknowledge that they might be confused with what's true and what isn't true, and that would cause them some hesitation. I refer you back to point #1 for that.

Funny, you can continue to promote “your” unsubstantiated philosophies and disparage other posters. But you cannot take away the rights of American citizens whose health decisions do not affect you without changing this country from a Republic based democracy to some sort of dictatorship.:shocked:

[LiverpoolWalrus]

...

[Bucco]

You need to read the post to which I responded which in essence states I’m making up the information I shared. Did you know hospitals were reimbursed at a higher rate if the death was diagnosed from Covid. There’s more, perform an internet search for these reimbursements and ventilator usage which now may be associated with higher death rates.

Turn off the TV and get to reliable fact checker sites, do some research

.

"It is true, however, that the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate).

Both of those provisions stem from the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act."

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/)

Gee, thanks for the advice, but you could have done that.

See, now I don't have to say "people tell me" but say Aces4 told me, fact I already knew it is aside. And I watch very little TV news

[Aces4]

You say it much better than I

We should be tired of the old "a lot of people are saying" mantra, which never ever has a factual basis, and more importantly turns out to be simply hollow talk.

Haven’t talked with anyone in those positions, eh? I thought so. In twenty years from now when we’re all dead, there will be much exposed from this saga. Can Covid19 be deadly, absolutely, but not nearly as deadly as has been reported. Families have argued with hospitals saying their loved one didn’t die from the Covid virus but there is no changing what they report.

[njbchbum]

That phrase pertains to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body, with regards to pregnancy.

Unless you can catch pregnancy from a pregnant woman, that phrase doesn't apply. At all. Not even a little, almost.

So you are declaring that the phrase can only be used re a woman's rights re pregnancy? LOLOLOL

[Aces4]

"It is true, however, that the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate).

Both of those provisions stem from the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, or CARES Act."

Hospital Payments and the COVID-19 Death Count - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/)

Gee, thanks for the advice, but you could have done that.

See, now I don't have to say "people tell me" but say Aces4 told me, fact I already knew it is aside. And I watch very little TV news

I don’t watch any of the skewed news anymore and I only read reliable sources.

So happy you figured out you could have done that research on your own without doubting other posters who aren’t interested in holding your hand.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

You need to read the post to which I responded which in essence states I’m making up the information I shared. Did you know hospitals were reimbursed at a higher rate if the death was diagnosed from Covid. There’s more, perform an internet search for these reimbursements and ventilator usage which now may be associated with higher death rates.

Turn off the TV and get to reliable fact checker sites, do some research.

I have read some, maybe not all, of your posts, and I'm basically on YOUR SIDE, Aces, so the condescension is really a little misplaced.

I'm well aware of the overrepresentation of Covid deaths and I don't watch TV - especially cable news!

I had an interest in your comment about asking health care providers and I didn't know if your take was that they could support or refute certain information. If you don't want to answer, that's fine.

[Bucco]

I don’t watch any of the skewed news anymore and I only read reliable sources.

So happy you figured out you could have done that research on your own without doubting other posters who aren’t interested in holding your hand.

I have never watched news on tv, especially any cable channels. Lazy man's way.

So, where did you get your information on Medicaire paying more for Covid deaths. I would scratch them off your list as reliable, certainly don't understand the beaming of contexr

See, now "people will say" you taught me that. LOL But as i said, i knew that even though "a lot of people have been saying" on here what they heard on cable news spchannel and swore it was another conspiracy.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

No, that isn't a defense. Anyone can read anything on the internet to support what they WANT to do. I can find plenty of "research papers" (needs the quotation marks to emphasize how laughable that is, in context) to prove that vaccines are foolproof, that no one ever died as a direct result of a vaccine, and that the data proves that there will be 100% immunity if everyone is vaccinated.

The fact that you read this somewhere, it not a good or valid reason or defense in favor of vaccination. But you can find it on the internet.

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.

That's not research. I think people have forgotten what actual research is.

But no, reading somewhere that A=True is not a "defense" for not being vaccinated. However, I still acknowledge that they might be confused with what's true and what isn't true, and that would cause them some hesitation. I refer you back to point #1 for that.

But...but...didn't you make your vaccine decisions based on what you read and heard? What's the difference? There are sufficiently reliable sources for both sides of the issue.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

But...but...didn't you make your vaccine decisions based on what you read and heard? What's the difference? There are sufficiently reliable sources for both sides of the issue.

I made my decision based on a combination of science and evidence.

1. CDC recommendations.
2. Having to experience my sister being sick with COVID and wondering if she'd end up in the hospital (she wasn't - she was one of the "lucky" ones who "only" has lasting effects in her lungs because of the virus)
3. Having had vaccines in the past, and being personally comfortable with the concept of getting a vaccine.
4. Recognizing that this is, in fact, a situation where I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at the rest of the world by NOT ensuring that I'm immune, or I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at my own temple, and choosing to favor society with an unknown risk to myself. I have to choose either way. I choose to favor society.

[Aces4]

I have read some, maybe not all, of your posts, and I'm basically on YOUR SIDE, Aces, so the condescension is really a little misplaced.

I'm well aware of the overrepresentation of Covid deaths and I don't watch TV - especially cable news!

I had an interest in your comment about asking health care providers and I didn't know if your take was that they could support or refute certain information. If you don't want to answer, that's fine.

Yeah, when I reread my post is does read as condescending, sorry for that. I meant to imply I personally don’t believe mainstream media reporting and was suggesting you do research on verifiable online sources. The deaths from Covid for people with co-morbidity factors is skewed because so many of those people were at deaths door without that diagnosis. The Covid death factor would be sooo much lower if hospitals would have been paid regular payments.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

4. Recognizing that this is, in fact, a situation where I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at the rest of the world by NOT ensuring that I'm immune, or I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at my own temple, and choosing to favor society with an unknown risk to myself. I have to choose either way. I choose to favor society.

And for that you are a hero, and perhaps braver than my friend, if you’re being honest.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Yeah, when I reread my post is does read as condescending, sorry for that. I meant to imply I personally don’t believe mainstream media reporting and was suggesting you do research on verifiable online sources. The deaths from Covid for people with co-morbidity factors is skewed because so many of those people were at deaths door without that diagnosis. The Covid death factor would be sooo much lower if hospitals would have been paid fewer dollars for that do.

Yes, were you the one that said something like the number of Covid deaths would look much different if those already at death’s door were excluded from the numbers? I couldn’t agree more.

[oldtimes]

Recognizing that this is, in fact, a situation where I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at the rest of the world by NOT ensuring that I'm immune, or I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at my own temple, and choosing to favor society with an unknown risk to myself. I have to choose either way. I choose to favor society.

I think this is exactly the choice people feel they are faced with. There is not enough long term evidence either way. New developments are being found every day.

[Bill14564]

Haven’t talked with anyone in those positions, eh? I thought so. In twenty years from now when we’re all dead, there will be much exposed from this saga. Can Covid19 be deadly, absolutely, but not nearly as deadly as has been reported. Families have argued with hospitals saying their loved one didn’t die from the Covid virus but there is no changing what they report.

Yeah, when I reread my post is does read as condescending, sorry for that. I meant to imply I personally don’t believe mainstream media reporting and was suggesting you do research on verifiable online sources. The deaths from Covid for people with co-morbidity factors is skewed because so many of those people were at deaths door without that diagnosis. The Covid death factor would be sooo much lower if hospitals would have been paid fewer dollars for that do.

Yes, were you the one that said something like the number of Covid deaths would look much different if those already at death’s door were excluded from the numbers? I couldn’t agree more.

Do you dispute that nearly 600,000 more people died in the US in 2020 than in 2019, 2018, or 2017?

If we can accept the data from the States, as aggregated and reported by both the CDC, JHU, and the Covid Tracking Project then how can the 600,000 additional deaths be explained if they were not due to Covid? Did the hospitals cause those deaths in their effort to collect the extra per-patient reimbursement?

[Aces4]

Yes, were you the one that said something like the number of Covid deaths would look much different if those already at death’s door were excluded from the numbers? I couldn’t agree more.

The bottom line with this whole scenario is how people are willing to roll over and give government permission to take away individual freedom in America.

What’s next, mandatory birth control, mandatory Gardasil vaccinations for children so sexual partners may be unlimited.

You get the picture and I’m signing off. Civil liberties are on the line. BTW, for the record,it’s predicted the next pandemic may be far worse.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Do you dispute that nearly 600,000 more people died in the US in 2020 than in 2019, 2018, or 2017?

If we can accept the data from the States, as aggregated and reported by both the CDC, JHU, and the Covid Tracking Project then how can the 600,000 additional deaths be explained if they were not due to Covid? Did the hospitals cause those deaths in their effort to collect the extra per-patient reimbursement?

Persuasive information Bill. Thanks for posting. I had forgotten about that data and it appears to be true.

I’m nothing if not open minded and willing to change my tune as conditions warrant.

[Aces4]

Do you dispute that nearly 600,000 more people died in the US in 2020 than in 2019, 2018, or 2017?

If we can accept the data from the States, as aggregated and reported by both the CDC, JHU, and the Covid Tracking Project then how can the 600,000 additional deaths be explained if they were not due to Covid? Did the hospitals cause those deaths in their effort to collect the extra per-patient reimbursement?


The increased number of deaths, according to CNBC, was 528,000. That’s quite a distance from 600,000.


Covid was third cause of death in the USA after heart disease and cancer with the highest recordings at the beginning of the pandemic and at the winter holiday period in December. Not included in those numbers were suicides related to the isolation, untreated medical conditions because people were too afraid to see their physicians and improper treatment of Covid cases.

I know of one woman with severe heart disease who caught it earlier in the pandemic and died. I know at least a dozen people who survived Covid and are fine with their children unaffected by it. Can it be deadly, yes. Should we allow our government to take away the civil liberty of vaccination choice, NO!

[Bucco]

Yeah, when I reread my post is does read as condescending, sorry for that. I meant to imply I personally don’t believe mainstream media reporting and was suggesting you do research on verifiable online sources. The deaths from Covid for people with co-morbidity factors is skewed because so many of those people were at deaths door without that diagnosis. The Covid death factor would be sooo much lower if hospitals would have been paid regular payments.

"The true facts are that COVID-19 deaths will likely be underreported on death certificates and not over-reported,” Aiken said. “This will be especially true as deaths that occur in homes, and not the hospital, mount. Not all jurisdictions are able to test home deaths with typical symptoms for COVID-19.”

Social Media Posts Make Baseless Claim on COVID-19 Death Toll - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/)

[Aces4]

"The true facts are that COVID-19 deaths will likely be underreported on death certificates and not over-reported,” Aiken said. “This will be especially true as deaths that occur in homes, and not the hospital, mount. Not all jurisdictions are able to test home deaths with typical symptoms for COVID-19.”

Social Media Posts Make Baseless Claim on COVID-19 Death Toll - FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/social-media-posts-make-baseless-claim-on-covid-19-death-toll/)

This gets funnier and funnier to me. I wonder if they have checked under all the rugs, hmmmm.

If you want the vaccine, get it.

If people elect not to receive the vaccine which hasn’t been thoroughly tested, butt out and leave them alone. This isn’t a communist country... yet.

[Bucco]

The bottom line with this whole scenario is how people are willing to roll over and give government permission to take away individual freedom in America.

What’s next, mandatory birth control, mandatory Gardasil vaccinations for children so sexual partners may be unlimited.

You get the picture and I’m signing off. Civil liberties are on the line. BTW, for the record,it’s predicted the next pandemic may be far worse.

With all due respect. Well,

The government is notvrequiring anything...nothing.

None of your "general" phrases are required, not threatened in any way.

You buy into whatever thenconspiracy folks throw out there, yet you brag on your sources.

Civil liberties, despite " what you hear" are not on the line.

[Aces4]

With all due respect. Well,

The government is notvrequiring anything...nothing.

None of your "general" phrases are required, not threatened in any way.

You buy into whatever thenconspiracy folks throw out there, yet you brag on your sources.

Civil liberties, despite " what you hear" are not on the line.

I see comprehension is a factor so let me explain it to you, posters on this site are willing to have covid vaccinations mandated by the government. That’s not general so I’ll explain that, it’s not a conspiracy, it is a willingness for people to relinquish a civil liberty to the government. That’s not what this country is about and I brag about nothing but that’s your tactic.

Read your source’s report, Aiken, on February 18, 2021 in the AAMC which indicates the muddiness of covid 19 assessments in death. You know, the source you “brag” about...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The increased number of deaths, according to CNBC, was 528,000. That’s quite a distance from 600,000.


Covid was third cause of death in the USA after heart disease and cancer with the highest recordings at the beginning of the pandemic and at the winter holiday period in December. Not included in those numbers were suicides related to the isolation, untreated medical conditions because people were too afraid to see their physicians and improper treatment of Covid cases.

I know of one woman with severe heart disease who caught it earlier in the pandemic and died. I know at least a dozen people who survived Covid and are fine with their children unaffected by it. Can it be deadly, yes. Should we allow our government to take away the civil liberty of vaccination choice, NO!

Wow that herring is ENORMOUS. And bright bloody crimson. No mistaking it for anything else.

1. 'Refusing Vaccination" is not on the list of "civil rights."
2. If you mean "my body my choice," I have a few states you need to explain Roe v. Wade to, before we can go a single step further on THAT path.
3. The government is not trying to mandate vaccines. So even if "refusing vaccines" was one of your civil rights, AND even if "my body my choice" was true Nationwide, it's a moot point. That's the red herring I was talking about. The first two points just make the herring big and a brighter shade of red.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I see comprehension is a factor so let me explain it to you, posters on this site are willing to have covid vaccinations mandated by the government. That’s not general so I’ll explain that, it’s not a conspiracy, it is a willingness for people to relinquish a civil liberty to the government. That’s not what this country is about and I brag about nothing but that’s your tactic.

Read your source’s report, Aiken, on February 18, 2021 in the AAMC which indicates the muddiness of covid 19 assessments in death. You know, the source you “brag” about...

"Willingness to have the government mandate vaccines" - well first, I haven't seen anyone post that but a few folks I skim over so I probably missed it.

Second, willingness to have the government do something, is not equal to demanding that the government do something.

Third, the government isn't trying to do something.

You're turning a kitten into a crocodile.

[Bucco]

I see comprehension is a factor so let me explain it to you, posters on this site are willing to have covid vaccinations mandated by the government. That’s not general so I’ll explain that, it’s not a conspiracy, it is a willingness for people to relinquish a civil liberty to the government. That’s not what this country is about and I brag about nothing but that’s your tactic.

Read your source’s report, Aiken, on February 18, 2021 in the AAMC which indicates the muddiness of covid 19 assessments in death. You know, the source you “brag” about...

Well, did not know "posters on this site are willing to have covid vaccinations mandated by the government.". I must have been out that day.

Since what you say is made up, it IS a conspiracy theory.

The insanity is the distortion of the truth. Saying you will not get the vaccine is fine, but this is typical of truth distortion. Nothing is mandated...never has been....and most folks on here do not tell you what is in their mind.

Perhaps based on "many people say" which has never yielded a fact yet

[Aces4]

Wow that herring is ENORMOUS. And bright bloody crimson. No mistaking it for anything else.

1. 'Refusing Vaccination" is not on the list of "civil rights."
2. If you mean "my body my choice," I have a few states you need to explain Roe v. Wade to, before we can go a single step further on THAT path.
3. The government is not trying to mandate vaccines. So even if "refusing vaccines" was one of your civil rights, AND even if "my body my choice" was true Nationwide, it's a moot point. That's the red herring I was talking about. The first two points just make the herring big and a brighter shade of red.

Nice drama, my body, my choice was accepted for Roe vs Wade but in other other situations we have no choice? Give me a break.

The discussion, if you followed it, was vaxxers insisting everyone follow their creed and they are more than willing to allow the government to step in and mandate vaccinations of a vaccine that has not passed all testing yet. Why would anyone give up their rights to say no to this vaccine is the question and hand that right over to the government. No red herring for you, just carp.

[Swoop]

Do you dispute that nearly 600,000 more people died in the US in 2020 than in 2019, 2018, or 2017?

If we can accept the data from the States, as aggregated and reported by both the CDC, JHU, and the Covid Tracking Project then how can the 600,000 additional deaths be explained if they were not due to Covid? Did the hospitals cause those deaths in their effort to collect the extra per-patient reimbursement?

The death totals for the US in 2020 have not been released. There are no 600,000 additional deaths in 2020. Anyone using that figure is basing it on the assumption of the coded Covid deaths being added the the projected deaths for 2020. From the CDC’s website “Because of the time needed to investigate certain causes of death and to process and review data, final annual mortality data for a given year are typically released 11 months after the end of the calendar year.” Any death totals for 2020 are based on assumptions, not actual data...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

With all due respect. Well,

The government is notvrequiring anything...nothing.

None of your "general" phrases are required, not threatened in any way.

You buy into whatever thenconspiracy folks throw out there, yet you brag on your sources.

Civil liberties, despite " what you hear" are not on the line.

Funny, I was just going to say the same thing, also with an abundance of respect to Aces.

Aces, this seems like a solution in search of a problem. You keep saying our civil rights are at stake and they are not. Nobody is forcing anyone to get a vaccination in the US.

I'm sure you're a very smart person, but I have to say the frequent parroting of that line sounds like you've been overly influenced by what some might say is the propaganda in the mainstream media which you claim to eschew. I mean no harm or disrespect. We are here to share information and perhaps learn something from each other.

[tvbound]

Anti-vaxxers only care about themselves. Its me, me, me. All your points are well taken.

You nailed it. Then listening to them whine about their "liberties/civil rights being lost," yet are too ignorant to understand that other people also have the liberty to keep from being infected - doesn't ever seem to sink in with the selfish types.

[Aces4]

Funny, I was just going to say the same thing, also with an abundance of respect to Aces.

Aces, this seems like a solution in search of a problem. You keep saying our civil rights are at stake and they are not. Nobody is forcing anyone to get a vaccination in the US.

I'm sure you're a very smart person, but I have to say the frequent parroting of that line sounds like you've been overly influenced by what some might say is the propaganda in the mainstream media which you claim to eschew. I mean no harm or disrespect. We are here to share information and perhaps learn something from each other.

It may appear that way but I’m taking information that has been posted in previous threads. Some have even suggested being card carrying vaxxers so they can eliminate others from activities such as flying, cruising, etc. The thought here is if one is vaccinated and protected why are they insisting others do the same? This is a virus that probably will never disappear completely.

[Aces4]

You nailed it. Then listening to them whine about their "liberties/civil rights being lost," yet are too ignorant to understand that other people also have the liberty to keep from being infected - doesn't ever seem to sink in with the selfish types.

“Other” people should be vaccinated and if they are “too ignorant”, (your words), to know they can’t be infected that may be their problem.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

The discussion, if you followed it, was vaxxers insisting everyone follow their creed and they are more than willing to allow the government to step in and mandate vaccinations of a vaccine that has not passed all testing yet. Why would anyone give up their rights to say no to this vaccine is the question and hand that right over to the government. No red herring for you, just carp.

Oh...now I think I understand what you're saying. Are you saying it seems we're on the verge of seeing the people - American citizens demanding that the government make vaccines mandatory? That's different than the government unilaterally mandating the vaccine from the get-go. If that's your concern, the people can demand it all they want. The federal or state governments might even give in to their demand. But a government mandate of an unapproved vaccine would never ever survive a Supreme Court challenge, especially this court.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

You nailed it. Then listening to them whine about their "liberties/civil rights being lost," yet are too ignorant to understand that other people also have the liberty to keep from being infected - doesn't ever seem to sink in with the selfish types.

According to Fauci and other sources, both the vaccinated and unvaccinated can carry and pass on the virus. So I respectfully ask why that "doesn't ever seem to sink in" with the people that parrot the selfishness line.

[Aces4]

Oh...now I think I understand what you're saying. Are you saying it seems we're on the verge of seeing the people - American citizens demanding that the government make vaccines mandatory? That's different than the government unilaterally mandating the vaccine from the get-go. If that's your concern, the people can demand it all they want. The federal or state governments might even give in to their demand. But a government mandate of an unapproved vaccine would never ever survive a Supreme Court challenge, especially this court.

Yes, that’s what I am saying and I fervently hope you are correct about the courts.

As I said earlier, I was fully vaccinated 2 months ago but I am pretty amazed by the lack of civility toward people who have elected to forego vaccination at this point. I wish people would be vaccinated but certainly would not call them ignorant or worse and treat them poorly if they choose not to do so.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Well, civil liberties again.

Seems to be common. What about Vaccinations required for children to go school? One example. Your RIGHTS, as Justice Scalia said, and I paraphrase, are limited, there is no such thing as an unlimited right. Rights are given by the government, and can be regulated by the government. In the case of public welfare where the threat is sufficient all rights can be restricted by the declaration of martial law - which was added to the powers the president has following 911.

The fact that YOUR RIGHTS have not been limited by forcing you to be vaccinated. If things got out of hand, the government could.

I love all these rights arguments - censorship, your RIGHT to say anything any time any where. Guns, your right to any guns any time any where, vaccinations, you body your rights.

I heard a great quote on a TV show the other day, no where in the constitution does it say "you have the right to put coffee creamer in your coffee". But, that wouldn't stop the **** storm if the government said you couldn't.

[Becca9800]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

[Bill14564]

The death totals for the US in 2020 have not been released. There are no 600,000 additional deaths in 2020. Anyone using that figure is basing it on the assumption of the coded Covid deaths being added the the projected deaths for 2020. From the CDC’s website “Because of the time needed to investigate certain causes of death and to process and review data, final annual mortality data for a given year are typically released 11 months after the end of the calendar year.” Any death totals for 2020 are based on assumptions, not actual data...

That is false, I've pointed out in another thread it was false, I've provided the CDC links showing it was false, and yet you still make the assertion.

The CDC does not agree with your theory of where the 600,000 number comes from.

[PNaughton]

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.
If we get vaxxed and still can get it what's the point of getting vaccinated. An anti vaxxer I know will not get vaxed and says if we all get vaxed he has nothing to worry about. Sort of saying the vaccine works but they won't admit it.

[Aces4]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Thank you for this clear, concise post which highlights all the issues with this new discrimination. Your assessment of the medical issues you’ve witnessed meshes completely with facts shared with me by medical professionals. I hope you remain well and safe in your occupation and life.:)

[Becca9800]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

There is no need to defend another's decisions. I sincerely struggle to understand why if you're vaccinated, what does it matter if your pickleball partner isn't. You believe in your decision to receive the vaccine, if it doesn't protect you why did you subject your body to it?

[billethkid]

Do we assume that the non vax folks are not concerned about catching it or passing it on to other non vax.

Would they not be more apt to get it in any crowded indoor venue even if the participants were 50-50 vax and non vax?

[Aces4]

Do we assume that the non vax folks are not concerned about catching it or passing it on to other non vax.

Would they not be more apt to get it in any crowded indoor venue even if the participants were 50-50 vax and non vax?

The non vax people I know still wear a mask, wash hands frequently and social distance as much as possible. Some are younger, had it, recovered easily and aren’t concerned. One person is in their eighties and recently was diagnosed with early onset dementia. That person isn’t interested in prolonging life.

[Bucco]

Yes, that’s what I am saying and I fervently hope you are correct about the courts.

As I said earlier, I was fully vaccinated 2 months ago but I am pretty amazed by the lack of civility toward people who have elected to forego vaccination at this point. I wish people would be vaccinated but certainly would not call them ignorant or worse and treat them poorly if they choose not to do so.

Would love to know on what basis, comment, movement you are making your claim.

You are simply looking to create an issue that will divide.

You have made your fears visible, and it has been shown they are simply not valid.

[Aces4]

Would love to know on what basis, comment, movement you are making your claim.

You are simply looking to create an issue that will divide.

You have made your fears visible, and it has been shown they are simply not valid.

Did you not read Becca’s confirmation of what she has faced since she elected not to be vaccinated? I know, I know, yours is the only truth. (Big eye roll here... ) not to mention the fact that you alone post so often to discredit opposing thoughts to yours regarding vaccinations.

What’s your huge divide? Got your vaccination, good for you and that’s ALL you need to worry about. No one else needs you minding their vaccination decision.

[Bucco]

Thank you for this clear, concise post which highlights all the issues with this new discrimination. Your assessment of the medical issues you’ve witnessed meshes completely with facts shared with me by medical professionals. I hope you remain well and safe in your occupation and life.:)

But not backed up by facts. Passing judgement and creating havoc with words is simply another way of sayin.....”a lot of people are saying”. Word salad with no meaning.

[Aces4]

I think some people need civic lessons.

People seem to just come on here and say things, obviously without any thought.

YOU, as an individual do not have rights that exceed those of community.

As Americans, we are free to associate with whomever we choose, free to pick our friends and our fashions and our lifestyles. We have the freedom of expression, and of assembly. The right to be nonconformists is--at least theoretically--endowed by our Creator.

But communities, like individuals, also have rights, laid out by the same great thinkers and traditions that empowered us as individuals. Collectively, we are entitled to protection from threats to our health, safety, peace, comfort and convenience.

Yes, many on here need a lesson in civics, and perhaps some reading material on how this country became great


And then there are some who don’t even know when their health isn’t being threatened.:1rotfl:

[Bucco]

Did you not read Becca’s confirmation of what she has faced since she elected not to be vaccinated? I know, I know, yours is the only truth. (Big eye roll here... ) not to mention the fact that you alone post so often to discredit opposing thoughts to yours regarding vaccinations.

What’s your huge divide? Got your vaccination, good for you and that’s ALL you need to worry about. No one else needs you minding their vaccination decision.

Do whatever you want but do not tell anyone on here you are being forced to do it.

Do whatever you want, your decision should be based on factual information that serves you and your family....you are not being forced to do anything.

If a post on here with hearsay information, even though contradicted by real info, is the basis for you, fine, but you are not being forced, nor told what to do.

To spend a day on a forum, telling readers how the government is forcing you to do things which is not true, must be symptomatic.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Yes, that’s what I am saying and I fervently hope you are correct about the courts.

As I said earlier, I was fully vaccinated 2 months ago but I am pretty amazed by the lack of civility toward people who have elected to forego vaccination at this point. I wish people would be vaccinated but certainly would not call them ignorant or worse and treat them poorly if they choose not to do so.

Wow. My hat's off to you big time! Do you know how rare it is for people to put their feet in someone else's shoes? I thank you.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Thank you, Becca, and thank you for your role in treating Covid patients. Yes, I was asking if another poster had gotten insight directly from a health care worker because s/he seemed to be saying we could get interesting information from them (you), and I'm sure we can!

I'm not surprised to hear you say that 100% of those needing a ventilator were not in good health to begin with. But then we always hear about the 25 year old jock with no pre-existing conditions who died of the disease, too. That's where we get into the realm of the mind/body connection, and I don't want to go there right now as it's a whole other story.

[Swoop]

That is false, I've pointed out in another thread it was false, I've provided the CDC links showing it was false, and yet you still make the assertion.

The CDC does not agree with your theory of where the 600,000 number comes from.
Here is the link to the CDC’s website: Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm)
It states that: “CDC’s National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) collects and reports annual mortality statistics using data from U.S. death certificates. Because of the time needed to investigate certain causes of death and to process and review data, final annual mortality data for a given year are typically released 11 months after the end of the calendar year.”

The CDC refers to the 2020 mortality rates as provisional. All you have to do is read...
And comprehend...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

If we get vaxxed and still can get it what's the point of getting vaccinated.

There are two sides to this. I say "what's the point of getting vaccinated if infected people have a 80-90% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms" (source is listed in my previous post about this, but it's pretty common knowledge.) And if you're vaccinated and get infected, you have a 95% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms. I'm not sure an unapproved vaccine is worth only about a 5% upgrade in one's chances of an uneventful outcome.

On the other hand, by all accounts, the vaccine will assure you of a 0% chance of hospitalization or death. So that's a considerable argument in favor of the vaccine.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Thank you for this clear, concise post which highlights all the issues with this new discrimination. Your assessment of the medical issues you’ve witnessed meshes completely with facts shared with me by medical professionals. I hope you remain well and safe in your occupation and life.:)

Then how on earth, and why, were we all led to believe the sky is falling? If Covid is nowhere near as dangerous as we've been led to believe, and we let our economy collapse and kept kids out of school anyway, how did the world let this misinformation propagate? Scratching my head and wondering WTF is going on.

[Northwoods]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Excellent comment. First let me say, I have had both doses. But - I totally respect everyone’s right to decide if they want to be vaccinated. These vaccines are about a year old and are being distributed for emergency use only. We don’t know the long term effects of these vaccinations. We just don’t know.
Could it have an impact on birth defects? Issues that surface in 5 or 10 years? We just don’t know.
I’m over 65 and have many elderly friends. That is why I got it. If I was 25 and planned to have children... I might make a different choice. If I was under 40 and already had COVID... I might make a different choice.
I respect everyone’s choice.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

That’s really creative on your part....after 4 years of openly admitting to that exact tactic, and witnessing still in senate.

Neither party, neither liberal or conservative, as a rule does what you accuse. Only exception is negotiating and discussing bills before votes, which we stopped doing in the senate a number of years ago.

Accusations of a general nature toward either party means you know nothing and thus just hurl general insults.

You are taking gaslighting to a new level.

Earlier you said you're not a wordsmith. I've been reading your posts on this thread and you're proving yourself wrong as you've shown yourself to be quite eloquent. I was going to respond to this comment, but you did so much better than I could!

I just wish you and Aces would play nice.

[Swoop]

There are two sides to this. I say "what's the point of getting vaccinated if infected people have a 80-90% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms" (source is listed in my previous post about this, but it's pretty common knowledge.) And if you're vaccinated and get infected, you have a 95% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms. I'm not sure an unapproved vaccine is worth only about a 5% upgrade in one's chances of an uneventful outcome.

On the other hand, by all accounts, the vaccine will assure you of a 0% chance of hospitalization or death. So that's a considerable argument in favor of the vaccine.
The rate of Covid hospitalization for someone my age is 266.3 per 100,000 or less than 3/10’s of 1%. Of those hospitalized, 87% were obese or overweight. I am neither. That improves my odds of not being hospitalized to less than 4/100’s of 1%. That doesn’t even take into account the fact that the average hospitalized Covid patient had 2.6 preexisting conditions.
Again I have none of the most common ones according to the CDC. So if I get the virus, the chances of me being hospitalized are almost statistically zero. And before you tell me about Covid long haulers, according to the CDC, they are almost exclusively from the high risk group. So I have opted not to take a vaccine with a new delivery system that no one knows with certainty if there will be any long term issues.

[Northwoods]

Then how on earth, and why, were we all led to believe the sky is falling? If Covid is nowhere near as dangerous as we've been led to believe, and we let our economy collapse and kept kids out of school anyway, how did the world let this misinformation propagate? Scratching my head and wondering WTF is going on.

CA, which had a long extreme lockdown, has had 8900 COVID cases per 100,000 people. FL, which locked down initially but then opened up, has had 8700 cases per 100,000 cases.
So you ask a good question. I know the Charter School has been open and has done in-person learning all year. Restaurants in FL have been open for in-person dining for months. Yet our per capita rate is lower than CA.
I’m glad I live in FL. Please don’t turn FL into CA.

[Bill14564]

Here is the link to the CDC’s website: Provisional Mortality Data — United States, 2020 | MMWR (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7014e1.htm)
It states that: “CDC’s National Vital Statistics System (NVSS) collects and reports annual mortality statistics using data from U.S. death certificates. Because of the time needed to investigate certain causes of death and to process and review data, final annual mortality data for a given year are typically released 11 months after the end of the calendar year.”

The CDC refers to the 2020 mortality rates as provisional. All you have to do is read...
And comprehend...

Then you do see that the CDC bases its data on death certificates and not on the projected deaths for 2020. While provisional, the data are real data.

The links to the weekly death numbers (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2020-2021/data/NCHSData15.csv) and the surveillance methods (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/overview.htm#anchor_1539281356004) say the same; the weekly death counts are based on actual death certificates, not projections.

There were approximately 600,000 additional deaths in 2020. The numbers are not finalized. If they turn out to be high by 20% then that would mean only 450,000 additional deaths. Even with a 20% over-count the number of additional deaths is staggering.

So again, what would account for over 400,000 additional deaths if not Covid?

[Swoop]

Then you do see that the CDC bases its data on death certificates and not on the projected deaths for 2020. While provisional, the data is based real data.

The links to the weekly death numbers and the explanation of the source of that data (that I will add later) say the same; the weekly death counts are based on actual death certificates, not projections.

There were approximately 600,000 additional deaths in 2020. The numbers are not finalized. If they turn out to be high by 20% then that would mean only 450,000 additional deaths. Even with a 20% over-count the number of additional deaths is staggering.

So again, what would account for over 400,000 additional deaths if not Covid?
Again, this is a direct quote from the CDC’s website: “This report provides an overview of provisional U.S. mortality data for 2020. Provisional death estimates can give researchers and policymakers an early indication of shifts in mortality trends and provide actionable information sooner than the final mortality data that are released approximately 11 months after the end of the data year.”
ESTIMATES that’s the CDC’s terminology, not mine.

[Bill14564]

Again, this is a direct quote from the CDC’s website: “This report provides an overview of provisional U.S. mortality data for 2020. Provisional death estimates can give researchers and policymakers an early indication of shifts in mortality trends and provide actionable information sooner than the final mortality data that are released approximately 11 months after the end of the data year.”
ESTIMATES that’s the CDC’s terminology, not mine.

Then we're back to reply #80.

Have a good night.

[Indydealmaker]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

No one knows. Not even the "experts".

[MandoMan]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

Now that vaccines have been made easily available to all adults in the country, all those who want a vaccine can get it or have gotten it. I don’t worry about “herd immunity” at all, as I’ve been vaccinated. If anti-vaxxers get sick or die now, that’s their choice. Give them a Darwin Award to reward their poor reasoning. I’m just sorry that my money will help pay for their medical care. I’d favor requiring them to pay for their own hospital stay. Sorry to seem virulent, but I believe in science and medicine, not conspiracy theories.

[Fieldsaj]

My niece, a nurse, was vaccinated at work. A month later (April) she contracted Covid and infected 8 more members of her extended
family. Her husband ended up in the hospital on a respirator.
Get it into your heads. One cannot go back to normal for a long while.
Last year, the CDC had political constraints to account for changing advice and the fact that they are learning more daily.

[Looking for next wife]

I am so upset that I am losing even one more of "MY OWN PERSONAL" freedoms. I am still not over the fact that I can't go 100 mph through a school zone anymore without some over progressive yelling about it. So annoying. I might even be late or something and they still won't allow you to do it. So selfish. That bothers me everyday. What next? In addition, I am not sure why, but I hate vaccines. I think having polio would be kinda fun like the old days. I actually think Lysol taste pretty good mixed with a little regular vintage Clorox. Yum, can't wait for happy hour.

Jeez, I wish we could go back to the old days where we knew more and could easily settle things like the Hatfield's and McCoys did.

Why is it that the same people who do not trust science being real are generally the same ones that believe that flying saucers have visited us from outer space on occasion. I guess the saucers run on wood stoves or wind or pedaling.

Also, why do most valedictorians believe in science and the students hiding in the back of the class don't have any use for it. Hmmmm, thought provoking, but painful to my brain so I don't do it because I come first and always will. I feel more comfortable and mature that way. Thinking makes me bleed.

Get the vaccine. Stay alive. Help keep other people alive. Find something else to bitch about like the thickness of the golf scorecard or the consistency of the soup has changed 4% at your favorite lunch spot.

[Eg_cruz]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)
Honest I am so over this vaccination crap. All you guinea pigs have fun getting in line. I don’t criticize you for your choice, so let it go that others don’t want to get vaccinated.
We all have our reason on why we do or don’t get the shot.
I am not selfish nor am I am not a bad person for not getting the shot and I tried of people trying to bully people into or shaming people into it.
I follow guidelines, wear my mask and social distance and for me it works.
Stop trying to point fingers at people for not jumping on the unknown shot.

I personally don’t get it. The shot doesn’t stop you from getting the virus nor does it stop you from spreading it.....so why are you putting so much faith in it.....it’s truly blows my mind.

[Eg_cruz]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.
I will not sugar coated my reply.
You want to be a guinea pig have at it. I don’t criticize you that I think your a fool for jumping on the vaccine wagon. I have done my research and made my decision. Who are you to say anything about.

The so call vaccine DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE VIRUS NOR FROM SPREADING THE VIRUS

So, a shot that does not prevent nor stop the spread how it going to cause herd immunity?
I choose to stop the spread by my actions I follow the social distance, mask wearing and washing hands. I don’t put myself in risking positions.
So back off with trying to shame people for not walking around Willfully Blind

[Dasher0928]

Some "reasons":

1. Some people who require other people to do the thinking for them, have chosen to assume that the CDC's continual updates which sometimes contradict previous recommendations means they can't be trusted. (They'd be wrong about that, but it's an understandable reason, if you're used to other people doing your thinking for you)

2. Religious reasons (this would be a very tiny minority of the population that rejects medical intervention, including vaccines. They would likely be a very very small segment of the 20-30% of people who don't need to be vaccinated in order for herd immunity to occur)

3. Some people have illnesses or allergies that exempt them from being eligible to be vaccinated (again - they make up a portion of that 20-30%)

4. Some people aren't 16 years old or older (probably the largest segment of the 20-30%)

5. Some might already have antibodies, and feel that vaccinating would be redundant (this is possible, I don't know the science on it but it seems to make sense that it's a valid reason - anyone want to look that up?)

Other than #1, all of those are valid reasons to not vaccinate. With #1, it's not a valid reason, but it's an understandable reason.

How about antibody-dependent enhancement? This will not get sorted out for up to two years. And the latest news is that those in the double blind studies, the hallmark of clinical trials, are being unblinded?? Losing vital information on real long term consequences.

[Bill1701]

We have our shots and are as safe as we are going to be. Nothing is 100% effective. I will continue to wear a mask where it is required and usually where it is requested ( sometimes I forget to have one with me). I also practice social distancing in the stores. We didn't shut down our lives during the pandemic and came thru it fine. Either we were lucky or the whole thing is overblown if you are reasonably healthy to begin with. As far as the non-vaxxers go, they can do whatever they like. I don't let others determine what I can and cannot do.

[LG999]

Its a personal decision.
I dont believe in telling others what to do with their bodies regardless of their reason, justification, or lack of.

I am getting my second shot next Sunday.

[J1ceasar]

Some people are very heartless and don't feel there are any good reasons, mine 30 something children will feel there are scientific reasons not to take vaccines that are developed the way they are developed. Other people are just ornery and our anti government telling us what to do. Just remember the government forced armed forces to take LSD, and we had thalamide babies with the series lack of testing 30-40 years ago. At this point there is no long-term meaning 5-10 years scientific studies on the vaccines that we have been pretty much forced to take due to fear at mongering

[Andyb]

There are excellent reasons for not getting the “vaccine”, medical and religious are a few. It’s a person’s Constitutional right to choose. To say they are “selfish” shows your ignorance.

[golfing eagles]

I will not sugar coated my reply.
You want to be a guinea pig have at it. I don’t criticize you that I think your a fool for jumping on the vaccine wagon. I have done my research and made my decision. Who are you to say anything about.

The so call vaccine DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE VIRUS NOR FROM SPREADING THE VIRUS

So, a shot that does not prevent nor stop the spread how it going to cause herd immunity?
I choose to stop the spread by my actions I follow the social distance, mask wearing and washing hands. I don’t put myself in risking positions.
So back off with trying to shame people for not walking around Willfully Blind

You "did your research" and came to that conclusion?
May I refer you to the CDC website that shows that only 0.008% of those vaccinated got breakthrough COVID???? THAT MEANS ONLY 1 IN 13,000 VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS CAN GET AND SPREAD COVID, THE OTHER 12,999 CANNOT.
I suggest you go back to your amateur "research"

[Andyb]

Yes, I’m offended and you are wrong. Keep your opinions to your self.

[nick demis]

I will not sugar coat my stance........No defense at all for the anti-vaxxers. They are essentially clueless and heartless to the urgency of stopping this virus in its tracks. Anti-vaxxers will be THE reason our country cannot achieve SAVE herd immunity.

As an aside......I do not include those who can not be vaccinated due to medical issues. That is unfortunate for them that they can not achieve the protection the vaccines offer.

I have no patience for those who claim "religious reasons for not taking the vaccine". Religion should take a back seat to public safety. Sorry if that offends anyone.

I totally agree. I am on the verge of saying "I am vaccinated and you can take your mask and shove it".

[taruffi57]

Flip Side: You could listen to the MANY worldwide highly respected doctors and medical biologists who present conclusive verifiable evidence that these vaccines do not "protect" you, and, in fact, have a huge possibility of causing future medical problems. Not to mention the wide array of injuries, reactions and deaths after taking the vaccines. This info is out there, but Big Pharm, MSM and all of the social media sites are quashing it.

[Bucco]

Flip Side: You could listen to the MANY worldwide highly respected doctors and medical biologists who present conclusive verifiable evidence that these vaccines do not "protect" you, and, in fact, have a huge possibility of causing future medical problems. Not to mention the wide array of injuries, reactions and deaths after taking the vaccines. This info is out there, but Big Pharm, MSM and all of the social media sites are quashing it.

"People are saying"

[Byte1]

Defense? Why should any AMERICAN be required to present a defense for their own personal choice?

Selfish is being used recklessly by those that do not agree with those that decide for personal reasons NOT to be vaccinated. That seems to go in conjunction with the over used "me, me, me" cry we hear from those adamant about being vaccinated. Aren't you making a personal choice to get what you believe is protection from the evil Chinese virus? Isn't that also a "me, me, me" selfish presumption?
Ignorant is used to describe those that decline the vaccination. Ignorant of what? Maybe they do not believe that they can catch the virus for some reason. A year of not catching the supposed "most infectious disease" is apt to make folks assume they can not or will not catch it. Well, the virus IS only infecting less than 1% of the population, right? And what is the chance of being hospitalized even if you do catch it?
Some folks do not want what seems like a new serum into their system. They are more scared of the serum than of the virus. I have children that have had Covid and will not be persuaded to get the shots. Their choice and I respect it.
To protect others? Why? Not everyone feels like doing it merely to protect others. I only got the shots to protect my spouse, not "others." I believe I am safe for others to be around, even without their masks, but that is their option- their choice. Since I have lived without the vaccination for over a year, I have always felt safe. If others wish to hide, that is their choice and I respect that. Personally, I "feel" they should get their shots and be done with it, but I respect anyone that declines the FREE gov. paid vaccination. And with the multitude of lies that comes from D.C. on a daily basis, I can understand why folks do not trust the Gov.
I find it ironic that some of you consistently abuse the term "selfish" apparently not comprehending the definition. Either that, or you just use the term when convenient. Perhaps you folks should replace your "selfish" with a term such as "inconsiderate." Even that might be a stretch if those that do not get the vaccination, still take safety precautions.
I do not get the flu shot and have never had the flu. Am I "selfish?" Don't rush to answer that because I am not seeking your approval.
I read, whether correct or not (doesn't matter) that there have been twice as many people died from drug overdose in San Fran as died from Covid. Who cares? I don't because they made their choice. Am I "selfish?"
The way I see it, vaccinations are supposed to make a person safe from a specified illness. If I was already 95% safe from Covid just by stats, I should be almost invulnerable to it now, with the vaccination. I have been told that it is 100% effective to keep me out of the hospital. Great! A bit of extra insurance. Guess it can't hurt.....or can it? Some folks are scared that the vaccine may have future consequences/side effects. I guess I am a daredevil. I did it for my spouse, no one else. I do not wear a mask so if you are scared of catching it from someone that has had a vaccination, I guess you do not trust the gov. either. I guess you do not trust the vaccine either. Thank you for staying your distance. I never did like folks getting too close to me anyway and this makes me as happy as a hound dog getting his belly rubbed.
I don't believe in shaming anyone for not getting their vaccination. I think they should, but it is their decision and they might be right and I may end up being wrong. Shame on me? I can't be shamed because you can only shame someone if they know they are doing something or have done something wrong.

"Defense of anti-vaxxers?" Why do they need a defense if they are not doing anything wrong? It is your opinion that they are wrong and you are right.

If you see me, stay your distance. I'll be the one with the smile on my face. You'll be able to see the smile on my face because I won't be wearing a mask. "Selfish?" Nope, I have no right to deny you the opportunity to wear your mask and I won't. "Inconsiderate?" Maybe, if I believe that I am being a threat to anyone. The chances of me being infected is near zero. The chances of me becoming infected and not knowing it and then passing it on to you is also near zero. You have a better chance of me running in to you in a parking lot.
"Anti-vaxxers?" You are welcome in my home without your masks, anytime. After a year of living close to normal and not infected, I am not worried. If it comes, it will be handled.
As a famous person once said "Don't worry, be happy."
"Selfish?" Yes, those that wish to hinder my liberty and my free choice ARE selfish. Maybe it is some on here that are being selfish when they demand compliance with their fear driven requirements. You are being selfish when you put limitations on others when there are no restrictions mandated.
Vaccinations are free and there for you. Get them or refuse them, your choice. Personally, I feel better if you get them, and I hope that we will not rue the day in the future. Those that shame folks for not getting their shots should be ashamed.

[ChrissyI1]

These young people you are talking about may be strong enough to fight COVID - but the others they can infect are not so lucky! Come on people - do your part and stop being selfish and ignorant. We have to live together on this earth - have some respect and compassion for others. The precautions one takes is not only for oneself - but also for others. Common decency. Something that has gone missing the last 4 years!

[stebooo]

It's america. We are free to choose. You chose others don't. Don't swallow all your hearing less than 1% ever got covid. Relax.

[Eg_cruz]

And then there are some who don’t even know when their health isn’t being threatened.:1rotfl:
Straight from CDC

We are still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions in public places like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and washing your hands often. CDC will continue to update recommendations as we know more.

SO WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SHAME PEOPLE

[lpkruege1]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

So If I die after taking the vaccine, or one of children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren, are those that say we're being selfish, indeed selfish? This is still a vaccine that doesn't have FDA approval. It only has Emergency approval. What are the long term affects on children? What are the long term affects on child bearing women? Our immune systems are made to adapt to these viruses. Look at the numbers. Cities locked down the hardest are now experiencing a surge while those that opened up early are going down. The difference? Immune systems allowed to work. So your vaccine, do You now have life time, absolute immunity? So you rolled the dice and came up good. Are you willing to be responsible for those that die? It's a personal choice and should remain so.

[DAVES]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

This is just another example of the way humans do things. We saw the best and the worst. Panic as on the Titanic. Women and children first. The band played on. Others,
hey Mildred how do I look in your blond wig.

The race card. More blacks are dying from covid 19 than whites. We do not hear that as a group blacks are not getting vaccinated at the same rate as whites. Try as some wish to spin this it is not due to lack of opportunity, it is due to lack of making any effort.

Herd immunity-a great term. A herd is a mindless mob.

[golfing eagles]

Flip Side: You could listen to the MANY worldwide highly respected doctors and medical biologists who present conclusive verifiable evidence that these vaccines do not "protect" you, and, in fact, have a huge possibility of causing future medical problems. Not to mention the wide array of injuries, reactions and deaths after taking the vaccines. This info is out there, but Big Pharm, MSM and all of the social media sites are quashing it.

Really????? Name them.

[golfing eagles]

Straight from CDC

We are still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions in public places like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and washing your hands often. CDC will continue to update recommendations as we know more.

SO WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SHAME PEOPLE

1) Not trying to "shame" anyone, couldn't care less what other people do, and I support their right to choose

2) It was you who posted the completely erroneous statement that the "so called vaccine" does not stop anyone from getting or spreading COVID. The CDC quote above has nothing to do with the FACT that only 0.008% (5814/85 million) of vaccinated individuals acquired COVID. And it IS a vaccine, by every definition in the book. Just setting the record straight

[coffeebean]

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.

I agree with everything you said and I look forward to the day masking will no longer be necessary. I do have one concern.....If we haven't reached herd immunity, isn't there still a chance that the virus will continue to mutate creating more variants? Will masking be recommended until herd immunity is actually achieved and who knows how long that is going to take?

[coffeebean]

I would agree with this if it were not an international problem. I do however agree that the government should not be able to mandate this given the lack of actual data and what they are discovering about new side effects and every day we are now hearing about people who got the vaccine and still got Covid and died. There is still too much they just don't know.

I may be blissfully naive but I haven't heard or read about deaths of fully vaccinated people. Everyday you hear this?

[DAVES]

So If I die after taking the vaccine, or one of children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren, are those that say we're being selfish, indeed selfish? This is still a vaccine that doesn't have FDA approval. It only has Emergency approval. What are the long term affects on children? What are the long term affects on child bearing women? Our immune systems are made to adapt to these viruses. Look at the numbers. Cities locked down the hardest are now experiencing a surge while those that opened up early are going down. The difference? Immune systems allowed to work. So your vaccine, do You now have life time, absolute immunity? So you rolled the dice and came up good. Are you willing to be responsible for those that die? It's a personal choice and should remain so.

We all tend not to see the elephant in the room. We all die as a result of life. Life is clearly the cause of our death.

As far as the effect on child bearing women, perhaps, you are thinking of Thalidomide?
It is interesting that the female doctor who kept it illegal in the United States recently passed away. We did have several severely deformed babies born in the US the mother's took a drug that they got illegally.

My view, similar to driving drunk a too common issue. You have every right to drive drunk if, it only means that you will drive into a wall and kill yourself. The problem is drunk drivers too often kill others. That is the reason why the choice they make is wrong. Truly, it is simple.

[coffeebean]

That phrase pertains to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body, with regards to pregnancy.

Unless you can catch pregnancy from a pregnant woman, that phrase doesn't apply. At all. Not even a little, almost.

Agree. "My body, my choice" does not apply when it comes to public health in the middle of a global pandemic. At all. Tired of the excuses. Everyone should do their part.

[DAVES]

I agree with everything you said and I look forward to the day masking will no longer be necessary. I do have one concern.....If we haven't reached herd immunity, isn't there still a chance that the virus will continue to mutate creating more variants? Will masking be recommended until herd immunity is actually achieved and who knows how long that is going to take?

Things are far simpler when we deal with what is rather than what might be.

It is interesting that I think it was syphilis in it's original form would kill the patient in a matter of days. Little chance to be spread. The disease mutated to a milder form where people could live with it for years. The milder disease was better able to spread.

Covid 19 is a virus and it will mutate. I read, a while ago, somewhere or other there were 98 distinct viruses identified. I'm sure if there were 98 today there are far more. As far as the masks, perhaps an interesting side effect this was a low year for flu cases.

We use the term, return to normal. We never can or do return to normal. We will have a new normal. That is what always has and will happen.

[oldtimes]

I may be blissfully naive but I haven't heard or read about deaths of fully vaccinated people. Everyday you hear this?

Not a lot but greater than zero.

COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html)

[redheadbiker]

So agree!

[RodSheets]

Has the FDA approved a vaccine?

[DonnaNi4os]

I believe in the vaccine and am fully vaccinated. But I would never force a vaccine on someone who doesn’t want it. We don’t live in that kind of nation thank goodness. If it makes you feel netter, pandemics typically run their course in 24 months. Vaccinated or not, we likely have until the end of the year for this to be over. Hopefully another is not lurking around the corner.

[oneclickplus]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

Well, an obvious defense is "my body, my choice" ... same defense all the pro-abortion folks use to defend that choice. And, if you even think about commenting on how my lack of vaccination is risking the health of other people, I will quickly remind you of what an abortion absolutely (not a risk) does to another human being.

And, then there's the "follow the science" argument. Let's take a quick trip to factual history. Nothing has changed in 150 years. People who think they know it all continue to suppress and censor those who disagree. Bolding and underscoring is mine.

Journalist at Large, London, 1873 – It has come to our attention that Joseph Lister’s “germ theory” has been censored by the respected media publications of our day, and rightfully so, we say. As readers probably know, Lister is the controversial surgeon at Glasgow Royal Infirmary whose “deeply religious” character makes him immediately suspect. He claims that a new antiseptic method of surgery dramatically reduces the fatality rate from about 50% to 15%, but the vast majority of scientific opinion is against the man’s theories. Four years ago, the British Association, meeting at Leeds, mocked Lister’s ideas, and just this year the respected medical journal The Lancet warned that the entire medical profession is against Lister’s ideas. It is difficult to see how that such an august group of medical men could be wrong. We find it commendable that our all-wise, mothering media have the policy of censoring “content that contradicts the consensus of local and global health authorities” so that dangerous ideas like Lister’s will not be propagated and debated. As the wise saying goes, “We must follow the science."

Friday News, April 16, 2021 - Way of Life Literaure (https://www.wayoflife.org/friday_church_news/22-16.php)

No sh!t - we're seeing the same attitude now. Arrogance beyond belief.

Yes, Joseph Lister was mocked and censored for explaining how germs can make people sick and how steps could be taken to save lives. Notice that the British press was lauding his ridicule and endorsing censorship. People died unnecessarily because of this ridicule and censorship.

We have seen the same things going on with COVID and Big Tech. Less people would have died from COVID-19 if the press and Big Tech would have not suppressed proper information about nutrition, health, and immune system support.

Many have been deceived about COVID and truthful information has been suppressed.

[Joe C.]

I haven't been vaccinated, and don't plan to unless they make it mandatory for traveling abroad.
Herd immunity will be achieved when the virus has run it's course. Just because the CDC says that 70% must be vaccinated to achieve this, I don't believe them. The worst plague in history was the "Black Death" in the middle ages, and it just ran it's course and disappeared. Vaccinations weren't even in existence back then. So when the CDC makes recommendations, I take them with a grain of salt. There's money to be made with the vaccinations and I don't think they are as necessary as they are made out to be.
Like I've said before......I'm 73, and never had a flu, pneumonia, or shingles shot, and it's been at least 25 years since a tetanus shot.

[kenoc7]

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.

Medical necessity #1 - vaccination for COVID 19. Next on the list is #99, nothing is nearly as necessary at this time.

[oneclickplus]

That phrase pertains to the right of a woman to decide what happens to her body, with regards to pregnancy.

Unless you can catch pregnancy from a pregnant woman, that phrase doesn't apply. At all. Not even a little, almost.

Actually, the phrase is quite relevant. It's not about "catching pregnancy" ... it's about how the choice affects another person / people. You're on the side that says I should get vaccinated to protect other people. So, I say that abortion absolutely kills another human being. So, if a woman can choose to kill a baby with her choice, I can certainly choose not to be vaccinated. This is America. No one can force me or anyone to have a chemical concoction injection into their body.

[Burgy]

I think it should be pretty much like death and taxes, get it done and I would support national legislation to that effect unless a very valid reason to be excluded. It has been a national emergency and I support businesses, colleges etc that are making vaccination a requirement.

[oneclickplus]

Don't you realize you spreading the virus impacts the health of the community? Your individual rights are more important? The entire world is suffering. Its for the good of the whole.

Actually, individual rights is the reason blood was spilled in the American Revolution. My rights over my body do indeed trump what anyone else thinks I should do for the "whole".

As Ron DeSantis said: "if you believe the vaccine provides immunity, then act like it".

Don't worry about what others are doing.

Or, maybe you don't trust the vaccine. Well, neither do I.

[WindyCityzen]

Do you now wish you hadn’t gotten a polio shot? Or smallpox? Or diphtheria?

[oneclickplus]

Well, civil liberties again.

Seems to be common. What about Vaccinations required for children to go school? One example. Your RIGHTS, as Justice Scalia said, and I paraphrase, are limited, there is no such thing as an unlimited right. Rights are given by the government, and can be regulated by the government. In the case of public welfare where the threat is sufficient all rights can be restricted by the declaration of martial law - which was added to the powers the president has following 911.

The fact that YOUR RIGHTS have not been limited by forcing you to be vaccinated. If things got out of hand, the government could.

I love all these rights arguments - censorship, your RIGHT to say anything any time any where. Guns, your right to any guns any time any where, vaccinations, you body your rights.

I heard a great quote on a TV show the other day, no where in the constitution does it say "you have the right to put coffee creamer in your coffee". But, that wouldn't stop the **** storm if the government said you couldn't.

Ummm - no they are not. You may like to take a class in constitutional law to better understand where rights come from.

[Byte1]

Do you now wish you hadn’t gotten a polio shot? Or smallpox? Or diphtheria?

Apples and Oranges.

I have my inoculations, but declined the flu shot for over 50 years. Never had the flu. My parents made my choice for me regarding the past inoculations. Now, I have a choice and have opted for most. Everyone deserves respect for their choices, regardless of what anyone else feels is right or wrong.

[oneclickplus]

If we get vaxxed and still can get it what's the point of getting vaccinated. An anti vaxxer I know will not get vaxed and says if we all get vaxed he has nothing to worry about. Sort of saying the vaccine works but they won't admit it.

And, worrying about someone else who does not get vaccinated is sort of saying the vaccine doesn't work but they won't admit it.

[oneclickplus]

There is no need to defend another's decisions. I sincerely struggle to understand why if you're vaccinated, what does it matter if your pickleball partner isn't. You believe in your decision to receive the vaccine, if it doesn't protect you why did you subject your body to it?

Exactly.

:bigbow:

[graciegirl]

Actually, the phrase is quite relevant. It's not about "catching pregnancy" ... it's about how the choice affects another person / people. You're on the side that says I should get vaccinated to protect other people. So, I say that abortion absolutely kills another human being. So, if a woman can choose to kill a baby with her choice, I can certainly choose not to be vaccinated. This is America. No one can force me or anyone to have a chemical concoction injection into their body.

No one should force anyone, but as an amateur student of human behavior that has carefully observed people over time and has the heightened awareness of emotion given to many women.

I really, really, really, really think that many people are terrified of shots and of doctors. Yes, I do.

[oneclickplus]

Defense? Why should any AMERICAN be required to present a defense for their own personal choice?

Selfish is being used recklessly by those that do not agree with those that decide for personal reasons NOT to be vaccinated. That seems to go in conjunction with the over used "me, me, me" cry we hear from those adamant about being vaccinated. Aren't you making a personal choice to get what you believe is protection from the evil Chinese virus? Isn't that also a "me, me, me" selfish presumption?
Ignorant is used to describe those that decline the vaccination. Ignorant of what? Maybe they do not believe that they can catch the virus for some reason. A year of not catching the supposed "most infectious disease" is apt to make folks assume they can not or will not catch it. Well, the virus IS only infecting less than 1% of the population, right? And what is the chance of being hospitalized even if you do catch it?
Some folks do not want what seems like a new serum into their system. They are more scared of the serum than of the virus. I have children that have had Covid and will not be persuaded to get the shots. Their choice and I respect it.
To protect others? Why? Not everyone feels like doing it merely to protect others. I only got the shots to protect my spouse, not "others." I believe I am safe for others to be around, even without their masks, but that is their option- their choice. Since I have lived without the vaccination for over a year, I have always felt safe. If others wish to hide, that is their choice and I respect that. Personally, I "feel" they should get their shots and be done with it, but I respect anyone that declines the FREE gov. paid vaccination. And with the multitude of lies that comes from D.C. on a daily basis, I can understand why folks do not trust the Gov.
I find it ironic that some of you consistently abuse the term "selfish" apparently not comprehending the definition. Either that, or you just use the term when convenient. Perhaps you folks should replace your "selfish" with a term such as "inconsiderate." Even that might be a stretch if those that do not get the vaccination, still take safety precautions.
I do not get the flu shot and have never had the flu. Am I "selfish?" Don't rush to answer that because I am not seeking your approval.
I read, whether correct or not (doesn't matter) that there have been twice as many people died from drug overdose in San Fran as died from Covid. Who cares? I don't because they made their choice. Am I "selfish?"
The way I see it, vaccinations are supposed to make a person safe from a specified illness. If I was already 95% safe from Covid just by stats, I should be almost invulnerable to it now, with the vaccination. I have been told that it is 100% effective to keep me out of the hospital. Great! A bit of extra insurance. Guess it can't hurt.....or can it? Some folks are scared that the vaccine may have future consequences/side effects. I guess I am a daredevil. I did it for my spouse, no one else. I do not wear a mask so if you are scared of catching it from someone that has had a vaccination, I guess you do not trust the gov. either. I guess you do not trust the vaccine either. Thank you for staying your distance. I never did like folks getting too close to me anyway and this makes me as happy as a hound dog getting his belly rubbed.
I don't believe in shaming anyone for not getting their vaccination. I think they should, but it is their decision and they might be right and I may end up being wrong. Shame on me? I can't be shamed because you can only shame someone if they know they are doing something or have done something wrong.

"Defense of anti-vaxxers?" Why do they need a defense if they are not doing anything wrong? It is your opinion that they are wrong and you are right.

If you see me, stay your distance. I'll be the one with the smile on my face. You'll be able to see the smile on my face because I won't be wearing a mask. "Selfish?" Nope, I have no right to deny you the opportunity to wear your mask and I won't. "Inconsiderate?" Maybe, if I believe that I am being a threat to anyone. The chances of me being infected is near zero. The chances of me becoming infected and not knowing it and then passing it on to you is also near zero. You have a better chance of me running in to you in a parking lot.
"Anti-vaxxers?" You are welcome in my home without your masks, anytime. After a year of living close to normal and not infected, I am not worried. If it comes, it will be handled.
As a famous person once said "Don't worry, be happy."
"Selfish?" Yes, those that wish to hinder my liberty and my free choice ARE selfish. Maybe it is some on here that are being selfish when they demand compliance with their fear driven requirements. You are being selfish when you put limitations on others when there are no restrictions mandated.
Vaccinations are free and there for you. Get them or refuse them, your choice. Personally, I feel better if you get them, and I hope that we will not rue the day in the future. Those that shame folks for not getting their shots should be ashamed.

Very well said. Thank you.

[coffeebean]

Hi Coffeebean. See my post to OBB today. Still no defense? I respect your opinion either way, but seeing a bigger picture might soften your stance. Possibly. And if not, that's fine too.

Hi Walrus...
I did read your response to OBB.

I like to KISS......(keep it simple stupid). The way I see it, there is data that shows that asymptomatic infections are numerous. This is where the problem lies. Those who don't have a clue that they are transmitting this virus to others are the main drivers of this pandemic. There is data that shows that vaccinated people are not likely to become infected therefore are not likely to transmit the virus. There is also data that tells us that vaccinated people, if infected, do not have enough viral load to transmit the virus to others.

So.....with my "KISS" mentality, seems to me that we, as a community, would be much better off if everyone who CAN be vaccinated, GETS vaccinated.

All my opinion, of course.

[Gray lady of the sea]

I couldn’t agree with you more. Thank you !

[njbchbum]

Agree. "My body, my choice" does not apply when it comes to public health in the middle of a global pandemic. At all. Tired of the excuses. Everyone should do their part.

Since there is no law requiring this vaccination - it is still one's choice! Am tired of folks who think they can dictate what others must do based on their feelings/emotions!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Now that vaccines have been made easily available to all adults in the country, all those who want a vaccine can get it or have gotten it. I don’t worry about “herd immunity” at all, as I’ve been vaccinated. If anti-vaxxers get sick or die now, that’s their choice. Give them a Darwin Award to reward their poor reasoning. I’m just sorry that my money will help pay for their medical care. I’d favor requiring them to pay for their own hospital stay. Sorry to seem virulent, but I believe in science and medicine, not conspiracy theories.

All who want it have not yet gotten it. There are still parts of this country where the vaccine isn't readily available. As of 2 days ago, less than 30% of Americans have been vaccinated. If you take that 30% and do an average over the period of time since the vaccines first became available, and extend it to 2 days ago, that means that by today, there would be - maybe actually 30% vaccinated now.

We have a LONG way to go before you can say "Darwin Award time." And I'll be right in line with you on that day, passing out the cheesecake dipped in chopped liver for those lucky winners of the award.

[stanley]

We have a LONG way to go before you can say "Darwin Award time." And I'll be right in line with you on that day, passing out the cheesecake dipped in chopped liver for those lucky winners of the award.

Stop.....you're making me hungry!

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Hi Walrus...
I did read your response to OBB.

I like to KISS......(keep it simple stupid). The way I see it, there is data that shows that asymptomatic infections are numerous. This is where the problem lies. Those who don't have a clue that they are transmitting this virus to others are the main drivers of this pandemic. There is data that shows that vaccinated people are not likely to become infected therefore are not likely to transmit the virus. There is also data that tells us that vaccinated people, if infected, do not have enough viral load to transmit the virus to others.

So.....with my "KISS" mentality, seems to me that we, as a community, would be much better off if everyone who CAN be vaccinated, GETS vaccinated.

All my opinion, of course.

I absolutely agree that we would be better off if everyone who can be vaccinated, get vaccinated. However, I also accept the reality of the situation: not everyone who can, will. And thanks to politics, not everyone who can, will even acknowledge that it's a good idea. In fact, many who can, and choose not to anyway, will bring up this or that conspiracy regarding microchips under the skin and whatever the current anti-vaxx deal is this week.

People who prefer to opt out of the vaccine - eh. I'm not happy about it, but it's their choice.

People who are vehemently AGAINST the vaccine, and spit froth out their mouths to make sure you know how horrible and evil the vaccines are - need to be removed from society until they can manage the alien infiltration in their brains better.

I am absolutely against government mandated vaccines "just because." Thankfully, the government isn't requiring them "just because." However, I have no problem with "if you're NOT vaccinated, you can't attend public school." I'm fine with "if you're NOT vaccinated, you may not work in the VA hospital." I'm fine with "if you're NOT vaccinated, you may not pass through customs in or out of our country."

You can work for any hospital that doesn't have vaccine requirements, the government has no problem with that. You can fly anywhere that doesn't involve customs. You can send your kid to a private school that doesn't require vaccines, or home-school, or unschool, or get your neighbors together and open a neighborhood cooperative school if that's what floats your boat. The government is staying out of private matters. But if you want to participate in something that the government oversees, then the government gets to make the rules, and you can either abide by them, or choose to do something else instead.

[Bucco]

Or worse.......a free thinking American

America has done pretty darn well with a government.

Has not restricted anyones free speech. Works well.

[Bucco]

Or one of the clueless who carry the banner of "free thinking" while blindly following the cult of conspiracy theorists.

Curious if the spate of conspiracy theories over the years has ever resulted in a real factual conspiracy ?

Heard a rep from Florida spouting the "deep state" as some sort of reason for his trouble with law enforcement.

Always "they are out to get me" and mostly it turns out......no, you broke the law.

[stanley]

Or one of the clueless who carry the banner of "free thinking" while blindly following the cult of conspiracy theorists.

Ahhh................ I get it now...................no free thinking unless it's your way of thinking............
Read my signithure
V
V
V
V
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[Bucco]

Ahhh................ I get it now...................no free thinking unless it's your way of thinking............
Read my signithure
V
V
V
V
V

I can be convinced of things.....BY USE OF FACTS. Have heard so many conspiracy theories and again asking....have any ever turned out to be true ?

An strange as it may seem...those conspiracies normally are defensive actions, or meant to replace no knowledge

[stanley]

I can be convinced of things.....BY USE OF FACTS. Have heard so many conspiracy theories and again asking....have any ever turned out to be true ?

The "point" of discussion is free thinking........not conspiracy's. Always changing the subject.

[njbchbum]

I made my decision based on a combination of science and evidence.

1. CDC recommendations.
2. Having to experience my sister being sick with COVID and wondering if she'd end up in the hospital (she wasn't - she was one of the "lucky" ones who "only" has lasting effects in her lungs because of the virus)
3. Having had vaccines in the past, and being personally comfortable with the concept of getting a vaccine.
4. Recognizing that this is, in fact, a situation where I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at the rest of the world by NOT ensuring that I'm immune, or I can play russian roulette with the gun pointed at my own temple, and choosing to favor society with an unknown risk to myself. I have to choose either way. I choose to favor society

So you DID make your choice!

[Swoop]

Why should I take a vaccine that that is essentially being field tested now, where no one knows what the potential long term effects may be, when based on my age and health, according to the CDC, if I got Covid, the chances of requiring hospitalization are less than .00035?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I will not sugar coated my reply.
You want to be a guinea pig have at it. I don’t criticize you that I think your a fool for jumping on the vaccine wagon. I have done my research and made my decision. Who are you to say anything about.

The so call vaccine DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE VIRUS NOR FROM SPREADING THE VIRUS

So, a shot that does not prevent nor stop the spread how it going to cause herd immunity?
I choose to stop the spread by my actions I follow the social distance, mask wearing and washing hands. I don’t put myself in risking positions.
So back off with trying to shame people for not walking around Willfully Blind

Another hole in the vaccine defense is that unvaccinated people have an 80-90% chance of having no symptoms or nothing more than mild symptoms IF they get infected. Vaccinated people have a 95% chance of having no symptoms or nothing more than mild symptoms if they get infected. (Source in previous post but this is pretty common knowledge.) Is it worth getting an unapproved vaccine for about a 5% upgrade in your chances of an uneventful outcome?

On the other hand, the vaccine pretty much guarantees a 0% chance of hospitalization or death after infection, according to the vaccine makers. If true, that's a persuasive reason for getting the vaccine. (Unless you think your chances of hospitalization or death are close to zero anyway even if you don't get vaccinated - which appears to be true for most people).

[Bucco]

Why should I take a vaccine that that is essentially being field tested now, where no one knows what the potential long term effects may be, when based on my age and health, according to the CDC, if I got Covid, the chances of requiring hospitalization are less than .00035?

THEN don't....nobody forcing anyone

People talk about individual freedom...how they are being wronged about the vaccine, YET, they seem to be the only folks who take great umbrage at those who feel differently than they. Gaslighting 101

[coffeebean]

Someone asked if the others had spoke w any healthcare workers. I'm a 34-year registered nurse, certified nurse paralegal, and 22-year health care risk manager. I can tell you, the medical professional populace is equally divided on whether or not they will get the C19 vaccine(s). These are equally educated (at minimum, w the basic education required for licensure/certification) professionals. Because you don't agree with their decision should not allow you to consider either side ignorant. Instead, you must recognize that not all these educated, responsible people think alike. You trust them with your lives, but think you know what's best for them personally?

I can tell you that in my 300 bed acute care hospital, every one of the COVID + patients requiring a ventilator had one or more UNCONTROLLED underlying conditions, not one was a healthy adult, w or wo a controlled underlying condition, regardless of their age. My peers, while equally divided, have good rationale for getting or not getting the vaccine. I have researched the issue and I have elected to not get a vaccine despite being high risk (breast CA, fully-controlled insulin-dependent diabetes and coronary artery disease). I have my reasons and they are solid. My husband will take the vaccine. He respects my decision and I respect his.

And yes, our civil liberties are threatened, regardless of what you personally believe, or want to call it. Airlines, concert ticket sellers, cruise lines, football venues etc have already announced they are looking into adopting policy for their vaccinated v non-vaccinated patrons. I will eventually be forced to drive 1100 miles 2x/year when the airline won't sell me a ticket bc I'm not vaccinated. It's coming. Not a conspiracy theory, the bootleggers are already selling fake c19 vaccine cards.

Sorry.....you lost me when you divulged to us that you are high risk for Covid, yet have made the decision not to get vaccinated.

[coffeebean]

]If we get vaxxed and still can get it what's the point of getting vaccinated?[/B] An anti vaxxer I know will not get vaxed and says if we all get vaxed he has nothing to worry about. Sort of saying the vaccine works but they won't admit it.

Did you REALLY ask that question?

[Joe C.]

Divide and conquer !!!!

The enemy is doing it quite successfully!!!

[Swoop]

THEN don't....nobody forcing anyone

People talk about individual freedom...how they are being wronged about the vaccine, YET, they seem to be the only folks who take great umbrage at those who feel differently than they. Gaslighting 101
Plenty of people are suggesting that if I don’t get vaccinated, I should be punished. I shouldn’t be allowed to travel, go to theme parks, go on cruises, etc. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not. If you are high risk, it certainly appears to be a good decision to get the vaccine. But based on my health, the smarter decision for me is to take the known odds vs the unknowns of the vaccine.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

How about antibody-dependent enhancement? This will not get sorted out for up to two years. And the latest news is that those in the double blind studies, the hallmark of clinical trials, are being unblinded?? Losing vital information on real long term consequences.

Yes, antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) is indeed the purple elephant in the living room (maybe because it's so hard to understand? :) ) Here's an explanation. If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down to the two sections starting with "Risk..."

Antibody-dependent enhancement and SARS-CoV-2 vaccines and therapies | Nature Microbiology (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5)

[coffeebean]

Did you not read Becca’s confirmation of what she has faced since she elected not to be vaccinated? I know, I know, yours is the only truth. (Big eye roll here... ) not to mention the fact that you alone post so often to discredit opposing thoughts to yours regarding vaccinations.

What’s your huge divide? Got your vaccination, good for you and that’s ALL you need to worry about. No one else needs you minding their vaccination decision.

But, but, but, what about allowing the virus to mutate and create all these variants? What about the fact that if this virus mutates to the point that the vaccines that have been administered to millions of people globally, will become ineffective? Have you thought about that?

[Bucco]

You responded to someone's way of "thinking" they do not trust the CDC, NIH or Fauci , You responded by saying he's anti US government.
Yes you changed the subject......you don't agree with someone's way of thinking and then started with the conspiracy crap, because of that.

You must learn to read......I "started" no conspiracy theory "crap". I responded to a poster who brought it up, and you immediately disagreed with his thinking but used my post to respond.

Methinks the subject was changed when you responded to a post to someone who didn't make that post.

You are certainly free as yo can be to trust in and believe conspiracy theories....up to you

And by the way..."I don't trust the CDC...."or most big government" is pretty clear to me, and of course to emphasize it added "comprehend that". I did "comprehend that....can only means he/she specifically doesn't trust two very important parts of the United States Government...nor the leading expert on the current situation. But, he added that he does not believe in "most big government" to insure we all understand, I suppose.

Since MOST is non specific....sort of like "lots of people say" we cannot be sure of what exactly he means, but MOST would indicate over half of the United States Government is non trustworthy, and I suppose we wait until he decides or clarifies which exact part.

[Bucco]

Plenty of people are suggesting that if I don’t get vaccinated, I should be punished. I shouldn’t be allowed to travel, go to theme parks, go on cruises, etc. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not. If you are high risk, it certainly appears to be a good decision to get the vaccine. But based on my health, the smarter decision for me is to take the known odds vs the unknowns of the vaccine.

You make it all about YOU.

It's not about YOU.

As of now, certain industries would like to protect their customers and employees. If you disagree with that decision, then do not use those businesses.

You have that right

And beginning with "plenty of people" has become the catch all, but means absolutely nothing and never did.

[coffeebean]

There are two sides to this. I say "what's the point of getting vaccinated if infected people have a 80-90% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms" (source is listed in my previous post about this, but it's pretty common knowledge.) And if you're vaccinated and get infected, you have a 95% chance of having nothing more than mild symptoms. I'm not sure an unapproved vaccine is worth only about a 5% upgrade in one's chances of an uneventful outcome.

On the other hand, by all accounts, the vaccine will assure you of a 0% chance of hospitalization or death. So that's a considerable argument in favor of the vaccine.
Very nice explanation but, seriously, did you really feel the need to educate this poster on something that has been common knowledge for months now?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

May I refer you to the CDC website that shows that only 0.008% of those vaccinated got breakthrough COVID???? THAT MEANS ONLY 1 IN 13,000 VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS CAN GET AND SPREAD COVID, THE OTHER 12,999 CANNOT.


I did read something about this. This is critical information, so why is it not given more attention? Aren’t Fauci and other “reliable” sources still saying you can carry and pass on the virus even if vaccinated?

Or is withholding this information a strategy to keep everyone masked and distanced thereby maintaining order as we have no way of knowing who’s been jabbed and who hasn’t?

[stanley]

You must learn to read......I "started" no conspiracy theory "crap". I responded to a poster who brought it up, and you immediately disagreed with his thinking but used my post to respond.


Wrong sir.....I completely AGREE with his thinking. Nowhere in any of my post's did I say I disagree. Reading comprehension 101
Now I need to get to work.....................until later.......fire away.........I'll be back

[Bucco]

I did read something about this. This is critical information, so why is it not given more attention? Aren’t Fauci and other “reliable” sources still saying you can carry and pass on the virus even if vaccinated?

Or is withholding this information a strategy to keep everyone masked and distanced thereby maintaining order as we have no way of knowing who’s been jabbed and who hasn’t?

Have you been watching the Task Force briefings ?

[oldtimes]

But, but, but, what about allowing the virus to mutate and create all these variants? What about the fact that if this virus mutates to the point that the vaccines that have been administered to millions of people globally, will become ineffective? Have you thought about that?

Then getting vaccinated will have been a waste of time. I just can’t be that neurotic.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Flip Side: You could listen to the MANY worldwide highly respected doctors and medical biologists who present conclusive verifiable evidence that these vaccines do not "protect" you, and, in fact, have a huge possibility of causing future medical problems. Not to mention the wide array of injuries, reactions and deaths after taking the vaccines. This info is out there, but Big Pharm, MSM and all of the social media sites are quashing it.

Our favorite response on TOTV: source please.

(Not doubting you. I’d like everyone to see some of these reports.)

[golfing eagles]

I did read something about this. This is critical information, so why is it not given more attention? Aren’t Fauci and other “reliable” sources still saying you can carry and pass on the virus even if vaccinated?

Or is withholding this information a strategy to keep everyone masked and distanced thereby maintaining order as we have no way of knowing who’s been jabbed and who hasn’t?

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt the CDC and Fauci are recommending continued masking for the 0.008% who can get COVID after full vaccination. It may be more of a temporary practical approach to avoid problems in places like grocery stores.
Imagine you walk into Publix and half the customers are masked and half aren't. How do you know who was vaccinated? Should Publix require proof of vaccination to come inside their store unmasked? Even if they did, some people will go down an aisle and remove their mask. Then customers will start in on each other about "who doesn't care about their fellow human beings", who is "unpatriotic" and other such nonsense. So the easy solution is to continue masking, right or wrong.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Plenty of people are suggesting that if I don’t get vaccinated, I should be punished. I shouldn’t be allowed to travel, go to theme parks, go on cruises, etc. I don’t care if you are vaccinated or not. If you are high risk, it certainly appears to be a good decision to get the vaccine. But based on my health, the smarter decision for me is to take the known odds vs the unknowns of the vaccine.

That's not punishment. It's called consequences. IF you are willing to put everyone else's life at risk to mitigate an inconvenience to yourself, THEN everyone else retains the right to shut you out of their activities.

Private businesses and private enterprises have the right - the freedom - to refuse service to anyone as long as their refusal doesn't violate the rights of protected classes (based on race, national origin, disability, religion, etc). "Not being vaccinated" is not a protected class, so they are free to tell you to get lost if you can't prove that you were vaccinated.

The government also has the right to prevent you from entering on Government property without proof of vaccination. Again - it is not violating any of your protected rights. You have the right to freedom of assembly - but NOT when the building is closed and you weren't invited in. You have the right to freedom of speech - but NOT if it requires you to hack into a radio station's controls and take it over. You have the right to freedom of religion - but NOT when it involves stealing your neighbor's chicken to cut its throat as a blood sacrifice.

And - you have the right to come and go as you please - but you do not have the "right" to do so without choosing to be vaccinated. That would be a privilege, not a right.

[glsatterlee]

The reason you receive the vaccine, is so that your body will create antibodies. I have already had Covid with symptoms, I was tested and I have the antibodies from the real virus not a make-believe virus for your body to fight.

In fact they want my blood to give to other people to protect them from Covid.

There are many many people out there who had Covid and they were asymptomatic, and millions of people who had Covid with few symptoms like me. An article that I read yesterday said if you take into Account the people who knew they had it, those who did not know they had it, and those that have taken a vaccine we are very close to herd immunity already, with some states already at herd immunity.

[blueash]

The increased number of deaths, according to CNBC, was 528,000. That’s quite a distance from 600,000.


Covid was third cause of death in the USA after heart disease and cancer with the highest recordings at the beginning of the pandemic and at the winter holiday period in December. Not included in those numbers were suicides related to the isolation, untreated medical conditions because people were too afraid to see their physicians and improper treatment of Covid cases.

Should we allow our government to take away the civil liberty of vaccination choice, NO!

The CDC listing for cause of death in 2020 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2778234) is now available. This categorization uses the first disease listed on the record and does not include any comorbid conditions. Thus if you are listed as dying of diabetes but you also had Covid which worsened your diabetic control, you are NOT listed as a Covid death in this data set even if the Covid sped your demise.

For 2020 rounded numbers there were 345 thousand Covid deaths. The total increased deaths over 2019 were 504 thousand

Despite the predictions of some, and the statement you made about suicide, the actual suicide deaths decreased to its lowest number since 2015.

I have no idea what you mean about improper treatment of Covid as apparently you have some specific knowledge about doctors failing to provide proper care. I would suggest that if such a thing happened, it was Covid that killed the patient as I doubt any doctors deliberately mistreated patients unless you are referring to possible deaths from medications that were being promoted and didn't work.

No data is available on excess deaths from people not seeking medical care. It certainly may have been a factor, but you assert without data that it is the case. There is data on this factor (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6936a4.htm) from patient report, but nothing about any resulting morbidity. There was an increase in deaths from heart disease, stroke, and diabetes in 2020. There is not data to say whether these were people who had ignored symptoms or people who received care but Covid worsened their status leading to death.

Importantly the data is through the end of the final week of 2020. This fails to capture the enormous number of Covid deaths that occurred in the first several weeks of 2021, see graph below. We now stand at 572 thousand primary Covid deaths per Johns Hopkins tracker.

The big picture is that there was a huge increase in overall mortality in 2020. This completely refutes the Covid is a hoax, the numbers are bogus etc. argument I have heard and read often.

I actually 100% agree with you that the government should not compel anyone to get a vaccination. I do believe that the government has the power to limit the activities of those that make the choice to not be vaccinated. Your child cannot go to public school without vaccines. You cannot attend most colleges without vaccines. You have the freedom of speech, but not the freedom to not have consequences for what you say. The Nazis can march in Skokie, protected speech, but when they lose their jobs, that is a consequence that is not protected. You can decline vaccination, but if you cannot cruise or attend a Yankees game, consequences.

[coffeebean]

My niece, a nurse, was vaccinated at work. A month later (April) she contracted Covid and infected 8 more members of her extended
family. Her husband ended up in the hospital on a respirator.
Get it into your heads. One cannot go back to normal for a long while.
Last year, the CDC had political constraints to account for changing advice and the fact that they are learning more daily.

Did your niece contract Covid at least two weeks after her second shot or was it before the immunity was fully achieved?

[Brondrisek]

Young person I know here is afraid of vax because she fears future complications during pregnancy. Another Facebook friend, young guy with family, states he’s not afraid of the virus so no mask and no vax.
How do you explain that it’s not about them?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Young person I know here is afraid of vax because she fears future complications during pregnancy. Another Facebook friend, young guy with family, states he’s not afraid of the virus so no mask and no vax.
How do you explain that it’s not about them?

Future complications during pregnancy is a valid concern, if she's currently pregnant. If she's not currently pregnant, then the concern is equally valid if she isn't vaccinated, and might actually catch COVID-19. Whatever the concern is for that, would be the same concern for being vaccinated.

The other one - doesn't seem like much of a friend, if he doesn't care that his lack of fear doesn't protect you from him.

[Swoop]

That's not punishment. It's called consequences. IF you are willing to put everyone else's life at risk to mitigate an inconvenience to yourself, THEN everyone else retains the right to shut you out of their activities.

Private businesses and private enterprises have the right - the freedom - to refuse service to anyone as long as their refusal doesn't violate the rights of protected classes (based on race, national origin, disability, religion, etc). "Not being vaccinated" is not a protected class, so they are free to tell you to get lost if you can't prove that you were vaccinated.

The government also has the right to prevent you from entering on Government property without proof of vaccination. Again - it is not violating any of your protected rights. You have the right to freedom of assembly - but NOT when the building is closed and you weren't invited in. You have the right to freedom of speech - but NOT if it requires you to hack into a radio station's controls and take it over. You have the right to freedom of religion - but NOT when it involves stealing your neighbor's chicken to cut its throat as a blood sacrifice.

And - you have the right to come and go as you please - but you do not have the "right" to do so without choosing to be vaccinated. That would be a privilege, not a right.

I’m confused, if you have received the vaccine, how am I putting your life at risk? If two non vaccinated people are in the same location, they potentially only put each other at risk, not you.

If an private business wants to make being vaccinated mandatory that’s their choice. I do have an issue with individual people calling for vaccine passports to punish those who feel the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits...

[coffeebean]

I am so upset that I am losing even one more of "MY OWN PERSONAL" freedoms. I am still not over the fact that I can't go 100 mph through a school zone anymore without some over progressive yelling about it. So annoying. I might even be late or something and they still won't allow you to do it. So selfish. That bothers me everyday. What next? In addition, I am not sure why, but I hate vaccines. I think having polio would be kinda fun like the old days. I actually think Lysol taste pretty good mixed with a little regular vintage Clorox. Yum, can't wait for happy hour.

Jeez, I wish we could go back to the old days where we knew more and could easily settle things like the Hatfield's and McCoys did.

Why is it that the same people who do not trust science being real are generally the same ones that believe that flying saucers have visited us from outer space on occasion. I guess the saucers run on wood stoves or wind or pedaling.

Also, why do most valedictorians believe in science and the students hiding in the back of the class don't have any use for it. Hmmmm, thought provoking, but painful to my brain so I don't do it because I come first and always will. I feel more comfortable and mature that way. Thinking makes me bleed.

Get the vaccine. Stay alive. Help keep other people alive. Find something else to bitch about like the thickness of the golf scorecard or the consistency of the soup has changed 4% at your favorite lunch spot.
You said it but I've been thinking that all along. There is a correlation, no doubt.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Curious if the spate of conspiracy theories over the years has ever resulted in a real factual conspiracy ?

Heard a rep from Florida spouting the "deep state" as some sort of reason for his trouble with law enforcement.

Always "they are out to get me" and mostly it turns out......no, you broke the law.

A large number of Americans, maybe a majority, now believe there was a conspiracy to assassinate JFK. Numerous others also believe there’s something fishy about 9/11.

I know you want sources, but I’m on my phone so I’ll skip them for now as they are readily available.

And admittedly neither of those two can be proven, so they don’t rise to the level of “factual” conspiracies you asked about.

[coffeebean]

I will not sugar coated my reply.
You want to be a guinea pig have at it. I don’t criticize you that I think your a fool for jumping on the vaccine wagon. I have done my research and made my decision. Who are you to say anything about.

The so call vaccine DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE VIRUS NOR FROM SPREADING THE VIRUS

So, a shot that does not prevent nor stop the spread how it going to cause herd immunity?
I choose to stop the spread by my actions I follow the social distance, mask wearing and washing hands. I don’t put myself in risking positions.
So back off with trying to shame people for not walking around Willfully Blind

CDC says that vaccinated (mRNA vaccines) people have a 10% chance of contracting Covid in real life situations. That is a lot better than having a 100% chance of catching Covid if you are not vaccinated. Vaccinated people also have less of a chance of spreading the virus due to having low viral loads and the fact that 90% won't be infected by the virus. Un-vaccinated people can spread the virus with higher viral loads and not even know it if they are asymptomatic.

What I have done by becoming vaccinated is to stop this virus in its tracks at 90% rate in the real world. Anti-vaxxers do NOTHING to stop the spread of this virus, especially if they do not have symptoms when they are infectious. Allowing this virus to spread and mutate and create all sorts of variants, thus perpetuating this global pandemic is not what I'm about. I see things VERY differently than you do.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I’m confused, if you have received the vaccine, how am I putting your life at risk? If two non vaccinated people are in the same location, they potentially only put each other at risk, not you.

If an private business wants to make being vaccinated mandatory that’s their choice. I do have an issue with individual people calling for vaccine passports to punish those who feel the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits...

If you are otherwise immunized (by way of having caught COVID-19 and already possessed of the antibodies against it), then you will pose no risk to me or anyone else at all, is how I'm understanding it.

However...

Most people have not been otherwise immunized. Most people in this country have not caught COVID-19 and had the opportunity to develop an immunity to it.

Virii mutate. That is a fact. They do this, it's a thing that they do. UNLESS they are not provided with a host in which they can acquire the materials necessary for the mutation.

If most people refuse to vaccinate AND those same people are not already immune, then the virus has lots and lots of hosts to pick from, to settle down and munch on those tasty mutation-creating kibbles and bits of humanity.

Once the virus mutates sufficiently, it can then go on and infect EVERYONE. Even the people who were already vaccinated.

That is why I feel people should be vaccinated, if they are able to do so. Because I really REALLY don't want to have to go through this again.

[coffeebean]

I will not sugar coated my reply.
You want to be a guinea pig have at it. I don’t criticize you that I think your a fool for jumping on the vaccine wagon. I have done my research and made my decision. Who are you to say anything about.

The so call vaccine DOES NOT PREVENT YOU FROM GETTING THE VIRUS NOR FROM SPREADING THE VIRUS

So, a shot that does not prevent nor stop the spread how it going to cause herd immunity?
I choose to stop the spread by my actions I follow the social distance, mask wearing and washing hands. I don’t put myself in risking positions.
So back off with trying to shame people for not walking around Willfully Blind
NOPE not gonna back off! And......I do not consider myself "willfully blind". Just the opposite.

[coffeebean]

There are excellent reasons for not getting the “vaccine”, medical and religious are a few. It’s a person’s Constitutional right to choose. To say they are “selfish” shows your ignorance.

Barring the medical issues reasons and the "religious" reasons (which I feel are a bunch of bunk), what are these excellent reasons you speak of?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt the CDC and Fauci are recommending continued masking for the 0.008% who can get COVID after full vaccination. It may be more of a temporary practical approach to avoid problems in places like grocery stores.
Imagine you walk into Publix and half the customers are masked and half aren't. How do you know who was vaccinated? Should Publix require proof of vaccination to come inside their store unmasked? Even if they did, some people will go down an aisle and remove their mask. Then customers will start in on each other about "who doesn't care about their fellow human beings", who is "unpatriotic" and other such nonsense. So the easy solution is to continue masking, right or wrong.

Yes, that’s exactly what I meant by “a strategy to maintain order”. However, one can’t ignore the fact it’s yet another example of government deception.

[coffeebean]

Yes, I’m offended and you are wrong. Keep your opinions to your self.

Who offended you? Was it me? I wouldn't know it because you did not QUOTE the person you responded to. If it was me, I did say "sorry", didn't I?

[Bucco]

NOPE not gonna back off! And......I do not consider myself "willfully blind". Just the opposite.

Just a post of support.

YOU are not "willfully blind"

Those who are simply anti government are the folks that have been blinded

[coffeebean]

Flip Side: You could listen to the MANY worldwide highly respected doctors and medical biologists who present conclusive verifiable evidence that these vaccines do not "protect" you, and, in fact, have a huge possibility of causing future medical problems. Not to mention the wide array of injuries, reactions and deaths after taking the vaccines. This info is out there, but Big Pharm, MSM and all of the social media sites are quashing it.
Then why the "pause" of the J&J vaccine for a few women who developed blood clots with two deaths from said blood clots? That is not "squashing" anything. Our government was extremely transparent about these side effects.

[Byte1]

Young person I know here is afraid of vax because she fears future complications during pregnancy. Another Facebook friend, young guy with family, states he’s not afraid of the virus so no mask and no vax.
How do you explain that it’s not about them?

And yet, it really IS about them. And I totally respect their views on the subject.

[Byte1]

Future complications during pregnancy is a valid concern, if she's currently pregnant. If she's not currently pregnant, then the concern is equally valid if she isn't vaccinated, and might actually catch COVID-19. Whatever the concern is for that, would be the same concern for being vaccinated.

The other one - doesn't seem like much of a friend, if he doesn't care that his lack of fear doesn't protect you from him.

So, you are saying that she has a valid reason, with the possible same consequences as his reason, but his reason is not as valid? You do know that she can be just as much a threat to you as he is, right? Actually, I agree with both of their reasons and respect them.

[Two Bills]

I am amazed at some of the stuff being bandied about regarding the worth of the vaccines.
Look at the decreasing numbers of Covid in the countries where the vacination program is going along well.
Then look at the countries where it is not.
Even to a dumb nut like me, it is obvious that vaccination is the way to go.
Check the situation at Dehli in India, and see what happens when the virus overwhelms the medical facilities.

[graciegirl]

Why should I take a vaccine that that is essentially being field tested now, where no one knows what the potential long term effects may be, when based on my age and health, according to the CDC, if I got Covid, the chances of requiring hospitalization are less than .00035?


HOW OLD ARE YOU? If you are more than 75 the chances of you dying from Covid-19 are one in ten if you get it.

Older Adults and COVID-19 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html)

[Swoop]

If you are otherwise immunized (by way of having caught COVID-19 and already possessed of the antibodies against it), then you will pose no risk to me or anyone else at all, is how I'm understanding it.

However...

Most people have not been otherwise immunized. Most people in this country have not caught COVID-19 and had the opportunity to develop an immunity to it.

Virii mutate. That is a fact. They do this, it's a thing that they do. UNLESS they are not provided with a host in which they can acquire the materials necessary for the mutation.

If most people refuse to vaccinate AND those same people are not already immune, then the virus has lots and lots of hosts to pick from, to settle down and munch on those tasty mutation-creating kibbles and bits of humanity.

Once the virus mutates sufficiently, it can then go on and infect EVERYONE. Even the people who were already vaccinated.

That is why I feel people should be vaccinated, if they are able to do so. Because I really REALLY don't want to have to go through this again.
Viruses certainly mutate. Look at the previous Covid outbreaks SARS & MERS. Both mutated. SARS lasted two years, the MERS outbreak lasted three.

[Tmarkwald]

If you are otherwise immunized (by way of having caught COVID-19 and already possessed of the antibodies against it), then you will pose no risk to me or anyone else at all, is how I'm understanding it.

However...

Most people have not been otherwise immunized. Most people in this country have not caught COVID-19 and had the opportunity to develop an immunity to it.

Virii mutate. That is a fact. They do this, it's a thing that they do. UNLESS they are not provided with a host in which they can acquire the materials necessary for the mutation.

If most people refuse to vaccinate AND those same people are not already immune, then the virus has lots and lots of hosts to pick from, to settle down and munch on those tasty mutation-creating kibbles and bits of humanity.

Once the virus mutates sufficiently, it can then go on and infect EVERYONE. Even the people who were already vaccinated.

That is why I feel people should be vaccinated, if they are able to do so. Because I really REALLY don't want to have to go through this again.

There are a lot of people who don't think of others, and they feel they can't get it. You can try again and again.

Just think of the families soon who will stand by the deathbed of a family member who is dying because they refused to get the protection from the virus.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Then why the "pause" of the J&J vaccine for a few women who developed blood clots with two deaths from said blood clots? That is not "squashing" anything. They were extremely transparent about these side effects.

The difference, and it's a biggie, is that the J&J jabs were causing severe short-term side effects that could not be ignored. I believe the poster is referring to potential but still not fully known consequences in the far term - for example, the ADE situation cited a few pages ago.

[Swoop]

[/COLOR]

HOW OLD ARE YOU? If you are more than 75 the chances of you dying from Covid-19 are one in ten if you get it.

Older Adults and COVID-19 | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html)

I’m 61. The chance of me being hospitalized with Covid is 266.3 in 100,000. Since I am neither obese nor overweight that further reduces my chances by 87%. The fact that I do not have heart or lung disease nor am I diabetic reduces my chances even further.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

So, you are saying that she has a valid reason, with the possible same consequences as his reason, but his reason is not as valid? You do know that she can be just as much a threat to you as he is, right? Actually, I agree with both of their reasons and respect them.

Well I just did a double check on the pregnancy vs. vaccine issue and changed my mind. That's not a valid reason to reject a vaccine either, afterall.

A pregnant woman should be checking with her physician, if she has any fears about vaccines that exist to prevent a deadly virus. The fact that she doesn't know, or has fears, is absolutely valid and I respect that. But basing her decision on her fear, instead of checking to discover that it's 100% safe to vaccinate while pregnant - is not valid.

Refusing a vaccine because you're afraid, is not a valid reason to refuse a vaccine. And refusing a vaccine because you're NOT afraid, is equally invalid. Refusing because you're afraid at least is understandable, even if it's not valid. Refusing a vaccine because you don't care, is not understandable. It's confounding, perplexing, and suspicious.

[Pat2015]

Well I just did a double check on the pregnancy vs. vaccine issue and changed my mind. That's not a valid reason to reject a vaccine either, afterall.

A pregnant woman should be checking with her physician, if she has any fears about vaccines that exist to prevent a deadly virus. The fact that she doesn't know, or has fears, is absolutely valid and I respect that. But basing her decision on her fear, instead of checking to discover that it's 100% safe to vaccinate while pregnant - is not valid.

Refusing a vaccine because you're afraid, is not a valid reason to refuse a vaccine. And refusing a vaccine because you're NOT afraid, is equally invalid. Refusing because you're afraid at least is understandable, even if it's not valid. Refusing a vaccine because you don't care, is not understandable. It's confounding, perplexing, and suspicious.
There is zero chance that I’d take any of the vaccines if I was pregnant.

[Byte1]

Well I just did a double check on the pregnancy vs. vaccine issue and changed my mind. That's not a valid reason to reject a vaccine either, afterall.

A pregnant woman should be checking with her physician, if she has any fears about vaccines that exist to prevent a deadly virus. The fact that she doesn't know, or has fears, is absolutely valid and I respect that. But basing her decision on her fear, instead of checking to discover that it's 100% safe to vaccinate while pregnant - is not valid.

Refusing a vaccine because you're afraid, is not a valid reason to refuse a vaccine. And refusing a vaccine because you're NOT afraid, is equally invalid. Refusing because you're afraid at least is understandable, even if it's not valid. Refusing a vaccine because you don't care, is not understandable. It's confounding, perplexing, and suspicious.

"Valid?" Perhaps you really mean "reasonable" as you are basing this on your opinion. Fear is a very good reason for refusing a free vaccination. I agree that folks should consider getting the shots. I am sure that many females would think twice before getting any kind of vaccinations if they are pregnant, before doing a lot of research and asking a lot of questions. They would be irresponsible (in my opinion) if they did not. A young guy refusing the vaccination does not bother me at all. I have about a dozen family members that have had the virus and shrugged it off easier than getting over a cold. If a young person is healthy, perhaps he should make way for those that are more vulnerable medically. This is not a black and white issue. Judging someone based on what you "fear" is not prudent. And that is most of what is going on right now, judging others based on opinions. Yes, opinions can be based on evidence, but some value their health and are very skeptical or suspicious of supposed "experts" that insist on medical treatment that some do not trust. A lot of young folks are refusing the vaccination. Maybe they too wonder why we are still wearing masks after being inoculated. Maybe they wonder "why bother?"

[stanley]

Interesting that you refer to his thinkin as "crap" when you posted to me.

Have a good day

Again reading comprehension 101. Nowhere did I call his way of thinking "crap" ..I said you brought up the "conspiracy crap" look back and tell me I'm wrong. Again you put words in my mouth that were never there. Must be the alternate facts you keep talking about

[coffeebean]

Really????? Name them.

Dr. Scott Atlas. LOL.

[coffeebean]

We all tend not to see the elephant in the room. We all die as a result of life. Life is clearly the cause of our death.

As far as the effect on child bearing women, perhaps, you are thinking of Thalidomide?
It is interesting that the female doctor who kept it illegal in the United States recently passed away. We did have several severely deformed babies born in the US the mother's took a drug that they got illegally.

My view, similar to driving drunk a too common issue. You have every right to drive drunk if, it only means that you will drive into a wall and kill yourself. The problem is drunk drivers too often kill others. That is the reason why the choice they make is wrong. Truly, it is simple.

I did not know Thalidomide was illegal in the US. So many posters on social media use that drug as an example of how unknown side effects of drugs can be disastrous. Thank you for enlightening me.

EDIT:......just now read that Thalidomide was given to 20,000 Americans in two clinical trials. The drug never was approved by the FDA.

[coffeebean]

Not a lot but greater than zero.

COVID-19 Breakthrough Case Investigations and Reporting | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html)

Yes, I see there are deaths but, as you said, very few compared to the amount of people who have been vaccinated.

[coffeebean]

I haven't been vaccinated, and don't plan to unless they make it mandatory for traveling abroad.
Herd immunity will be achieved when the virus has run it's course. Just because the CDC says that 70% must be vaccinated to achieve this, I don't believe them. The worst plague in history was the "Black Death" in the middle ages, and it just ran it's course and disappeared. Vaccinations weren't even in existence back then. So when the CDC makes recommendations, I take them with a grain of salt. There's money to be made with the vaccinations and I don't think they are as necessary as they are made out to be.
Like I've said before......I'm 73, and never had a flu, pneumonia, or shingles shot, and it's been at least 25 years since a tetanus shot.

Tell that to the people in India who are being asked to bury their loved ones in their back yards.......no room at the Inn so to speak.

[Bucco]

Again reading comprehension 101. Nowhere did I call his way of thinking "crap" ..I said you brought up the "conspiracy crap" look back and tell me I'm wrong. Again you put words in my mouth that were never there. Must be the alternate facts you keep talking about

Actually, after due review, you are correct.

I apologize.

However, I try very hard to never use "alternate facts"... that phrase was coined, and seemingly reserved for one corner of society.

[coffeebean]

Actually, individual rights is the reason blood was spilled in the American Revolution. My rights over my body do indeed trump what anyone else thinks I should do for the "whole".

As Ron DeSantis said: "if you believe the vaccine provides immunity, then act like it".

Don't worry about what others are doing.

Or, maybe you don't trust the vaccine. Well, neither do I.

I trust the vaccine that I received (Moderna) but I do not trust those people who will perpetuate this pandemic. I do not trust those who will pass on this virus to others, although unwillingly if asymptomatic, and cause this virus to mutate and create variants that may not be "covered" by the vaccine I received.

It is those damn variants that have thrown a monkey wrench into this mass vaccination effort that our government has launched. To think, our fellow Americans who refuse to be vaccinated, will be responsible for these vaccines not being protective any more to the millions of Americans who were brave enough to do their part and get vaccinated.

My opinion, of course.

[jimjamuser]

If you had your shots by now you should be able to go back to normal. Those that haven't had their shots should just stay inside or take your chances, but don't penalize others.
But they WILL want to penalize others. Remember our recent thread about pickleball.

[oldtimes]

Yes, I see there are deaths but, as you said, very few compared to the amount of people who have been vaccinated.

The point being that they are still discovering new data about the virus and the vaccine. There is still a lot they don’t know especially what the long term effects will be. There are many like those 18 and under who cannot be vaccinated and therefore could potentially continue spreading the mutations. They still have no idea when or if herd immunity will end the pandemic. It’s just never as easy as you’d like to believe.

[jimjamuser]

I won’t sugar coat my stance. This is America and this medical bullying needs to stop. Let’s all make a list of medical necessessities WE think should be implemented and then work to have them enforced, right?

If you want the vaccine, get it. Leave those alone who have decided against it.

I have a feeling if we could all see the actual, individual cases of each person who has died from Covid only and not those who were at death’s door you would be stunned by the actual numbers.
I believe that we can believe the numbers put out by medical scientists and the CDC. WE pay them. They are professionals. They should be believed over dark outlets, TV Channels, and Russian bots which try to distort news so that Americans get confused and believe nothing.

[coffeebean]

If you are otherwise immunized (by way of having caught COVID-19 and already possessed of the antibodies against it), then you will pose no risk to me or anyone else at all, is how I'm understanding it.

However...

Most people have not been otherwise immunized. Most people in this country have not caught COVID-19 and had the opportunity to develop an immunity to it.

Virii mutate. That is a fact. They do this, it's a thing that they do. UNLESS they are not provided with a host in which they can acquire the materials necessary for the mutation.

If most people refuse to vaccinate AND those same people are not already immune, then the virus has lots and lots of hosts to pick from, to settle down and munch on those tasty mutation-creating kibbles and bits of humanity.

Once the virus mutates sufficiently, it can then go on and infect EVERYONE. Even the people who were already vaccinated.

That is why I feel people should be vaccinated, if they are able to do so. Because I really REALLY don't want to have to go through this again.
OBB.....you and I are on the same page regarding the virus mutating and creating variants. We also agree that if this cycle continues, we just may be looking at millions of vaccinated Americans who are no longer protected. All thanks to those who are not willing to do their part and get the vaccine.

But.......you AlWAYS say it better than me. Thank you.

[coffeebean]

Just a post of support.

YOU are not "willfully blind"

Those who are simply anti government are the folks that have been blinded

Thank you for your support.

[coffeebean]

I am amazed at some of the stuff being bandied about regarding the worth of the vaccines.
Look at the decreasing numbers of Covid in the countries where the vacination program is going along well.
Then look at the countries where it is not.
Even to a dumb nut like me, it is obvious that vaccination is the way to go.
Check the situation at Dehli in India, and see what happens when the virus overwhelms the medical facilities.
Those poor people, being requested to bury their loved one in their back yards like you would a pet animal. I never ever thought I would see that happening in my life time, anywhere in this world. Am I just being naive? This virus kills.

[jimjamuser]

I would think that once everyone who wants to be vaccinate is, then we should be able to fully back to normal. We should be able to know this when people stop showing up for the vaccine.

I got my two shots well over a month go but I continue to wear a mask indoors in public spaces because from what I understand, I can still contract the virus and spread it to others. I'm assuming that there are still people that want to get vaccinated but haven't been able to do so yet, so I feel a responsibility toward my fellow humans.

But once every that wants to be vaccinated has been, I feel no responsibility to those who choose not to be vaccinated. I shouldn't have to live my life based on their choices.
Your last sentence was correct. We SHOULD not have to live our lives based on their choices. BUT, unfortunately, we WILL! If the US does not reach herd immunity and the CV drops toward close to ZERO, then CV remains with us for years and years. WE will have the problem and expense of new vaccinations being needed every year. And there will ALWAYS remain a fear that the CV could evolve into something unstoppable. Now is the best time to stop CV and the anti-vaxxers could make that impossible. That statement is NOT bullying - it is a medical fact. India THOUGHT it had the CV under control, but suddenly CV has taken over their situation. Please, don't let that happen to the US!

[coffeebean]

The difference, and it's a biggie, is that the J&J jabs were causing severe short-term side effects that could not be ignored. I believe the poster is referring to potential but still not fully known consequences in the far term - for example, the ADE situation cited a few pages ago.

Understood. Thanks.

[jimjamuser]

I agree. There is a difference between dying from Covid and dying with Covid.

I have an uncle that died with Covid. He was 93 years old. He went into the hospital for a heart condition. After surgery he was sent to rehab where he fell and broke his hip. After that he was told that he had contracted Covid and he died shortly thereafter.

The problem is that who knows if the Coivd killed him or if his death was the result of his heart surgery or even the broken hip. I've heard many cases of elderly people dying shortly after breaking a hip.

In the case of my uncle, an autopsy was not performed so the cause of deaths was listed as Covid. But who knows? He was 93. He could have died of natural causes.
One uncle is an N of one in statistics. Statistics are useful to show trends and "big picture" situations so that leaders are informed and can make their best-informed decision.

[jimjamuser]

I don't consider that a reason mostly because I fall squarely into that category of people, and I got vaccinated.

I'm younger (not even 60 yet). I worked at Publix from February 2020 til mid-December 2020, making more than minimum wage (I started at $13.20 and asked to transfer to a lower-paying department because me + stocking shelves = not a good match, final pay was $11/hour). I'm SURE I was exposed to it, there were enough people who refused to mask or social distance, who came in with the sniffles or just had something stuck in their throat and were coughing while I was bagging their groceries, etc. I'm sure if I had left there saying I was too worried about Covid, I could've taken advantage of the PEUC money and unemployment compensation.

But I left because I developed bursitis in my hip on top of osteoporosis and just can't work standing still for any length of time, and the job required that I do a lot of standing still. I was honest, and chose to not even try collecting unemployment. We definitely could've used the money but eh - not worth the headache filling out the forms.

But no, I don't count people who don't "want" to get vaccinated as a "reason" for not getting vaccinated.
Good honesty.

[coffeebean]

~~~

[coffeebean]

Wow, so because you received a vaccine that you were very excited to get - that somehow makes you brave?!?

Absolutely! I was aware of the risks of taking a vaccine. I'm also aware of risks of taking prescription and OTC medication. There are always risks. I made a decision that the benefit outweighed the risk.

Millions of Americans, like myself, are also brave and took the risk to be vaccinated. What are the reasons anti-vaxxers are refusing the vaccine? I'm not referring to those who have medical issues to deal with if they take the vaccine.

So......what are these reasons? Maybe they are not so brave. Could that be it?

[jimjamuser]

As we walk on toward the goal of loss of individual freedom...:ohdear:
Some things can ONLY be done by LARGE government and LARGE institutions. You as an individual would look pretty silly standing in your backyard with a shotgun trying to shoot down incoming ICBMs from Russia!

[jimjamuser]

No, that isn't a defense. Anyone can read anything on the internet to support what they WANT to do. I can find plenty of "research papers" (needs the quotation marks to emphasize how laughable that is, in context) to prove that vaccines are foolproof, that no one ever died as a direct result of a vaccine, and that the data proves that there will be 100% immunity if everyone is vaccinated.

The fact that you read this somewhere, it not a good or valid reason or defense in favor of vaccination. But you can find it on the internet.

When people say they researched something, on an internet forum, they USUALLY mean "I did a bing/google search and clicked the top 3 responses from the search" or "I skimmed the wikipedia entry" or "I read it on pubmed.

That's not research. I think people have forgotten what actual research is.

But no, reading somewhere that A=True is not a "defense" for not being vaccinated. However, I still acknowledge that they might be confused with what's true and what isn't true, and that would cause them some hesitation. I refer you back to point #1 for that.
Russian hackers and bots are working hard to create ANY possible confusion on almost ANY subject just as a cheap method to weaken the US. And also other free countries. Because it WORKS!

[Swoop]

Your last sentence was correct. We SHOULD not have to live our lives based on their choices. BUT, unfortunately, we WILL! If the US does not reach herd immunity and the CV drops toward close to ZERO, then CV remains with us for years and years. WE will have the problem and expense of new vaccinations being needed every year. And there will ALWAYS remain a fear that the CV could evolve into something unstoppable. Now is the best time to stop CV and the anti-vaxxers could make that impossible. That statement is NOT bullying - it is a medical fact. India THOUGHT it had the CV under control, but suddenly CV has taken over their situation. Please, don't let that happen to the US!
Let’s put an end to the silly notion about herd immunity in the US - if you are fearful of variants. Assume for a moment that every living American got the vaccine. Then the virus has mutates in some other country. It only took one person entering the US with Covid to start the spread. Our borders are WIDE open. If there is a new strain, it will make it into the US. If the vaccine isn’t effective against the new strain... Herd immunity is over.
If the vaccine works against the new strain, the those who currently choose not to receive the vaccine would not impact those who have been vaccinated.

[Swoop]

Absolutely! I was aware of the risks of taking a vaccine. I'm also aware of risks of taking prescription and OTC medication. There are always risks. I made a decision that the benefit outweighed the risk.

Millions of Americans, like myself, are also brave and took the risk to be vaccinated. What are the reasons anti-vaxxers are refusing the vaccine? I'm not referring to those who have medical issues to deal with if they take the vaccine.

So......what are these reasons? Maybe they are not so brave. Could that be it?
What risks are you referring to? You keep posting that there are virtually no risks in getting the vaccine.
And getting a shot because you believe that is what is best for you, doesn’t make you brave...

[graciegirl]

What risks are you referring to? You keep posting that there are virtually no risks in getting the vaccine.
And getting a shot because you believe that is what is best for you, doesn’t make you brave...

It really does. It is surprising to me that there are many people not getting vaccinated because they fear doctors AND shots. I don't like shots and needles. I was hospitalized in the last two years where I had 27 needles in one week. The largest and scariest was inserted into my chest to reinflate my right lung. I was scared but I didn't yell. I had my sweet husband and daughter holding my hand for support.

I have a LOT of trust for the traditional medical community and very little for alternative medicine. Our daughter has had many stays and me staying with her around the clock, in her life because of congenital heart issues. Not all medical facilities are equal, some are better than others with teaching hospitals being the best. I believe we can trust the CDC and the NIH.

Most people who work with very sick people day in and day out are so close to being saints in my book. I stand in awe, really almost worship.

[coffeebean]

What risks are you referring to? You keep posting that there are virtually no risks in getting the vaccine.
And getting a shot because you believe that is what is best for you, doesn’t make you brave...

I never said there are no risks to being vaccinated. That would be foolish to profess that. What I have continued to say is the benefit outweighed the risks for me. I also feel very special for doing my part for our country to achieve SAFE herd immunity. That goes for everyone who has been vaccinated.

Yes there are risks. As I keep hearing from the folks who are reluctant to vaccinate, "What about future side effects?" "We anti-vaxxers just may be correct and all you vaxxers will have horrible side effects or worse". Yes, there is a risk.

That is why I truly believe every person who has been vaccinated is very brave to have done so. Those who participated in the initial trials are not only brave but they are our heroes and I thank every one of those brave people.

[Swoop]

I never said there are no risks to being vaccinated. That would be foolish to profess that. What I have continued to say is the benefit outweighed the risks for me. I also feel very special for doing my part for our country to achieve SAFE herd immunity. That goes for everyone who has been vaccinated.

Yes there are risks. As I keep hearing from the folks who are reluctant to vaccinate, "What about future side effects?" "We anti-vaxxers just may be correct and all you vaxxers will have horrible side effects or worse". Yes, there is a risk.

That is why I truly believe every person who has been vaccinated is very brave to have done so. Those who participated in the initial trials are not only brave but they are our heroes and I thank every one of those brave people.

You are currently participating in the trial. So I guess you are both brave and a hero...

[jimjamuser]

It may appear that way but I’m taking information that has been posted in previous threads. Some have even suggested being card carrying vaxxers so they can eliminate others from activities such as flying, cruising, etc. The thought here is if one is vaccinated and protected why are they insisting others do the same? This is a virus that probably will never disappear completely.
Yes! finally an accurate statement ......" the CV will probably NEVER disappear". Good work! Now ask, "whose fault will that be"?

[coffeebean]

You are currently participating in the trial. So I guess you are both brave and a hero...

LOL.....Notice I referred to "initial trials" in my post you are responding to. Yes, I'm very aware the millions of people who have been vaccinated, myself included, are part of a continuing trial. I've been told that so many times on this forum, I'm beginning to believe it. You know how THAT works, don't ya?

[riley2011]

What do you all think? If the percent of those vaccinated never exceeds, let's say, 50%*, and herd immunity for Covid is accomplished when 70% of the population is immune through either infection or the vaccine,** is it fair to say the anti-vaxxers will have thrown a serious wrench into the works?

Put another way, what is the defense, if any, for those who are criticized for being selfish and preventing herd immunity by refusing to get the vaccine?

*US Coronavirus Vaccine Progress Tracker | Vaccinations by State | USAFacts (https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/)
**How Far Are We From COVID-19 Herd Immunity? – Reason.com (https://reason.com/2021/03/17/how-far-are-we-from-covid-19-herd-immunity/)

It’s really none of your business. Some people have good reasons.

[jimjamuser]

There is no need to defend another's decisions. I sincerely struggle to understand why if you're vaccinated, what does it matter if your pickleball partner isn't. You believe in your decision to receive the vaccine, if it doesn't protect you why did you subject your body to it?
It DOES protect the vaccinated person. That was covered here in this forum over and over. The vaccinated person is 100% GUARANTEED to NOT die or end up in a hospital! Stop regressing!

[Becca9800]

As far as the effect on child bearing women, perhaps, you are thinking of Thalidomide? It is interesting that the female doctor who kept it illegal in the United States recently passed away. We did have several severely deformed babies born in the US the mother's took a drug that they got illegally.

To clarify, the mothers did not obtain the drug illegally, it was prescribed to them by a physician. It was the pharmaceutical companies that distributed the medication to physicians for unauthorized "trials".

True Story of Thalidomide in the US | US Thalidomide Survivors (https://usthalidomide.org/our-story-thalidomide-babies-us/)

[Becca9800]

It DOES protect the vaccinated person. That was covered here in this forum over and over. The vaccinated person is 100% GUARANTEED to NOT die or end up in a hospital! Stop regressing!

Settle down there partner, geeze, you're gonna give yourself the big one getting so riled over nothing. Now then, why do so many care if their pickleball partner isn't vaccinated when they are themselves vaccinated? In order to understand why I might have asked that, you need to read the message string, I was responding to the concerns of other posters. I agree w you, the vaccinated one has the protection w or wo compliance from their pickleball partner.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Absolutely! I was aware of the risks of taking a vaccine. I'm also aware of risks of taking prescription and OTC medication. There are always risks. I made a decision that the benefit outweighed the risk.

Millions of Americans, like myself, are also brave and took the risk to be vaccinated. What are the reasons anti-vaxxers are refusing the vaccine? I'm not referring to those who have medical issues to deal with if they take the vaccine.

So......what are these reasons? Maybe they are not so brave. Could that be it?

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Yes there are risks. As I keep hearing from the folks who are reluctant to vaccinate, "What about future side effects?" "We anti-vaxxers just may be correct and all you vaxxers will have horrible side effects or worse". Yes, there is a risk.

That is why I truly believe every person who has been vaccinated is very brave to have done so. Those who participated in the initial trials are not only brave but they are our heroes and I thank every one of those brave people.

Got it. That does clarify. So you're saying people who got the vaccines knowing there could be "horrible side effects or worse" are brave because they knew about that serious and real potential threat and opted to get jabbed anyway.

[jimjamuser]

"What a bunch of self serving, know it all’s! Get your shot and shut up about it! "

"I think it should be pretty much like death and taxes, get it done and I would support national legislation to that effect unless a very valid reason to be excluded. It has been a national emergency and I support businesses, colleges etc that are making vaccination a requirement. "

Welcome to the U.S.S. of A where freedom is a "collective" effort and the elite rule the masses.

No thanks, good or bad I love my country being the BEST and the elitists' complaints are entertaining.
If something is "BEST" then it IS "ELITE" !

[jimjamuser]

Hi Walrus...
I did read your response to OBB.

I like to KISS......(keep it simple stupid). The way I see it, there is data that shows that asymptomatic infections are numerous. This is where the problem lies. Those who don't have a clue that they are transmitting this virus to others are the main drivers of this pandemic. There is data that shows that vaccinated people are not likely to become infected therefore are not likely to transmit the virus. There is also data that tells us that vaccinated people, if infected, do not have enough viral load to transmit the virus to others.

So.....with my "KISS" mentality, seems to me that we, as a community, would be much better off if everyone who CAN be vaccinated, GETS vaccinated.

All my opinion, of course.
Way to go! You are a good "KISS"er!!!!!!!!!!

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I believe we can trust the CDC and the NIH.



I so want to trust the government too. But it's not easy. I worked for the federal government for 31 years and even I don't trust parts of it, considering our history of egregious "adventures." This makes getting an experimental, unapproved vaccine even more questionable, in my opinion. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't think so (I wouldn't have been able to maintain my federal job if I were, for one thing):

Let’s not forget* the Swine flu vaccine debacle...or...
-The Tuskeegee experiments
-MK Ultra
-Dosing military recruits with LSD without knowledge or consent
-Experimental nuclear explosions in Nevada leading to thousands of cases of thyroid cancer and deaths
-Allowing thousands of people to die of AIDS before it was taken halfway seriously
-Selling bombs to Iran and drugs to American citizens to fund the Nicaraguan contras
-Dishonesty about why we invaded Iraq
-Other experiments on prisoners, the military, children (!), the mentally ill, and pregnant women

Hmmm. I was just reading about a current study investigating how and why people are overly trustful and willing to follow without question the orders of the "authorities." May or not be relevant here. Just sayin.'

*Sources available on request, or you can easily find them yourself

[Gulfcoast]

I think that the most susceptible have already had access to the vaccine and they have made their choice whether or not to get vaccinated. That's good enough for me. I'm not going to spend my time worrying about why or why not someone else chose to get vaccinated. At this point, it doesn't sound like our hospitals would be overrun by Covid patients which was the whole point of the masks and social distancing anyway. The goal has never been to completely eradicate the virus off of the face of the earth. The goal was to slow the spread down to manageable levels and I believe that has been accomplished and then some.

Time to move onto something else.

[MaryShields]

Having had COVID gives an immune response. Not in any hurry to get a vaccine.

[Swoop]

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

Great post!!

[Swoop]

LOL.....Notice I referred to "initial trials" in my post you are responding to. Yes, I'm very aware the millions of people who have been vaccinated, myself included, are part of a continuing trial. I've been told that so many times on this forum, I'm beginning to believe it. You know how THAT works, don't ya?
If you don’t believe it’s still a trial consider this:
How long will the vaccine protect you for - unknown
Will you require a booster shot - unknown
Will it protect you against variants - unknown
Will there be any long term side effects - unknown
That sounds like a trial to me...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

See, people who try to think things through, such as yourself, I respect your hesitation. I don't agree with it. But I absolutely respect it. Because we get differing information regularly from the CDC, because this IS a new thing, because the vaccine IS a new vaccine, because we know, that there's a lot we still DON'T know...you are hesitant. And I respect that.

I would ask you though, to consider the philosophical side of the equation, and put science vs. evidence aside for a minute. I'll talk about me. Feel free to fill it in with yourself, as applicable.

I'll be 60 next week. I have no children. I was a Girl Scout. I was taught that it is our duty as human beings to at least TRY to leave this world in a better place than we found it. Even if we fail, it's up to us to try.

My generation has done a bang-up job in helping and hindering the human race. We've thoroughly scorched it, and we've run ourselves ragged to heal it. Right now, we are faced with a quandry.

We can take what we _believe_ to be a very minimal risk, in order to eradicate a virus that has already killed around 3 million people worldwide in just one year, sent tens of millions to hospitals, put hundreds of millions out of work, and affected several billion families in one way or another. All in a single year. We can take a leap of faith that a vaccine will drastically reduce, if not completely eliminate, this particular threat against the next generations.

Or, we can take what we _believe_ to also be a somewhat minimal risk, and take a leap of faith that we won't get sick, and the virus won't mutate as a result of our lack of immunity, and that future generations won't be affected anyway.

I have no personal dog in the fight of future generations. Its not, as they say, my problem. But as a human being whose generation has created this and other traumas on this planet, I feel it my responsibility to choose the risk that is most likely to help the majority, rather than the risk that is most likely to help only myself.

Both are small risks. Both of these risks have unknown outcomes. The difference is that one might save millions in the future, and the other one might only save me.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.


I left out most of your posts just for brevity.

I can't entirely agree with the basis of your post. I respect that you believe what you posted; I disagree with it.

You state numerous times that taking the vaccine could result in death.

That is true.

You state it is a new vaccine, and the long-term results are unknown.

That is sort of true, but also some false.

The "art" (or science) of making vaccines is not new. Most of these vaccines are not new. With some of them, there is a new twist, but it is based on the knowledge of other vaccines that are not new. The odds of them killing you are much lower than your dying while taking a shower - one of the deadliest places in your home. A lot of testing has demonstrated that safety and testing continue as hundreds of millions of doses are administered worldwide. All indications are it is very safe.

There is an enormous list of other activities that are much more likely to kill you than vaccination. And yet, most of us do those things every day. And we do them because we are used to doing them.

Sometimes the best thing we can do is take the advice of our primary care physicians. That is what I do when it comes to health issues. Not because she is an expert on pandemics or viruses, but because she knows me, knows my health conditions, and is paid (in my case by the VA) to do the best she can to give me the advice to keep me healthy.

She is not interested in politics; she is not interested in getting a bonus for selling more vaccinations; she is not interested in the latest news broadcast about something a podiatrist has to say about vaccinations.

She reads and studies the medical journals, she reads and applies the latest guidelines published by the VA, and she talks to me about what and why she wants me to do things.

When the vaccine became available, I asked her if I could defer getting mine until people who needed it more got theirs. She said, NO. She said she wanted me in the first wave of vaccinations at the VA in Gainesville and explained why. That was that. I got mine as instructed by my PCP.

I was a consultant in the IT industry for 35 years. I was considered an expert, and people paid significant rates to get my opinion on things they wanted to do to their IT infrastructure. It never amazed me how some mid-level manager always wanted to argue about how he thought the changes should be done. He knew best. And almost without fail, if the company followed his advice, they called me back the next year and paid me more since I had to clean up his mess/mistakes.

My point is, experts are not always right. I was not always correct. But, the odds are in the expert's favor. And that is all you can hope for - that you pad the odds in your favor — social distancing, washing hands, masks, and vaccinations. None of them are perfect; none of them guarantee you won't get the virus - they each add to the odds in your favor.

[coffeebean]

It’s really none of your business. Some people have good reasons.

It is everyone's business, actually. This is a public health issue.

[coffeebean]

Hi Coffee, with all due respect, in my opinion:

...refusing (or undecided about) getting get an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

...refusing (or undecided about) about getting vaccinated when the unvaccinated, if infected, have an 80-90% of no or mild symptoms and the vaccine confers only a 5% upgrade in those chances, against a backdrop of an experimental unapproved vaccine whose long term consequences are currently being studied for possible significant adverse reaction is not a lack of bravery.

As an "undecided" I do struggle with the possibility that the anti-vaxxers might be hindering herd immunity. That's why I started this thread, and I appreciate all the thoughtful responses (this is soooo much better than Facebook!).

I'm trying to come up with an analogy about choosing not to walk headlong into a situation that can kill you. OBB's "Russian Roulette" is the closest to that mark. Maybe someone can come up with something.

If one makes a measured, rational choice not to be exposed to something potentially deadly, even if it hinders herd immunity, that person is choosing to protect him or herself from death or severe illness - the risk of which appears to be greater than infection with Covid. Further, Covid is projected to die out, as viruses do, after it runs its course of two to three years, with or without mass vaccination. So how is all this a lack of bravery? It seems quite sensible to me, but maybe I'm biased.

And as for the "selfish" tag - same line of thought. Is it really selfish to choose not to run headlong into something that can kill or cause severe illness? Isn't that what all of us have been choosing for at least the last year?

How about if undecideds just want to wait until the vaccines receive full FDA approval? Are they still the scum of the earth?

Walrus....I didn't realize you were "undecided". Why I thought you were playing devil's advocate, I just don't know??? Hmmm. "Scum of the hearth" is a bit harsh but those are your words, not mine.

I surely hope you can come to a decision that you will be happy with. Personally, I have no worries what so ever about these mRNA vaccines being harmful in the long run. Am I being naive? Maybe, but I have to trust someone/something in my life and besides my husband; I do trust our government .

[coffeebean]

Got it. That does clarify. So you're saying people who got the vaccines knowing there could be "horrible side effects or worse" are brave because they knew about that serious and real potential threat and opted to get jabbed anyway.
Yes. As I just said in my previous post, I do trust our government so I honestly believe these vaccines are very safe. As an aside.....I didn't give it two quick thoughts about this "new" Shingrix vaccine possibly being harmful and I doubt many people who opted for this vaccine gave it a second thought either. I think the fear for the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines is that the mRNA technology is the first time it is being used for vaccines so that is creating fear in people.

The mRNA technology has been studied for decades and these are not "rushed" vaccines as many people believe. I only wish I were still around 20 years from now to see if these vaccines do, in fact, harm no one in the long run as so many people feel they will. But, then again, maybe 20 years isn't enough time to tell is these mRNA vaccines will do harm. Maybe 50 years would do it. Then, maybe 75 years would suffice.