Was the economic impact of Covid really necessary?

[Swoop]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...

[graciegirl]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...

Did you mean was it unescapable? This is the difficulty. This never before faced difficulty by those now living on earth brought many unsolvable problems. Our leaders faced them and none really solved them but used compromises. They would be damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

Naturally a deadly virus that attacks the whole world is going to slow down economic exchange. It is like the story of King Solomon and the two women who both claimed to be the mother to a baby. He asked them....Should I divide the child with my sword?? We were in that kind of mess with this Pandemic. There was no PAT answer. People do not want to die and they do not want their loved ones to die and they do not want their income to stop.

Now we are opening back up and the stipends are making things worse, not better.

[Gulfcoast]

I think that the highly selective business shutdowns were not necessary in this situation and did more harm than good to the country. Ditto school shutdowns.

I think the added precautions in LTC facilities saved lives and were necessary. Beyond that, I think that people should have just been allowed to assess the risks for themselves and reacted accordingly. Painting everyone with one broad brush when most people were never at great risk from this virus was misguided.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I think it is very easy to sit at a computer screen and second guess world leaders. World leaders have millions of lives at stake on every decision they make. No matter what decision they make a LOT of people are going to be unhappy. I am thankful to not be in that position and respect anyone that made the best decisions they could at the time.

[Aloha1]

Remember "Two weeks to slow the curve"? That was the advice of Fauci and the CDC before they really had an understanding of what was going on. When it became apparent that this was a much more serious health crisis, we had a leader who stepped up, cut through red tape, and got the ball rolling on vaccines and mitigation.

Now, 14 months later, we find the CDC and Fauci way behind the curve with their rules and mandates. Almost 55% vaccinated not counting those who have immunity from getting Covid. Yesterday TSA screened the highest number of air travelers since 14 months ago.

Yes, there are pockets where, I'll be blunt, Darwin's children refuse to get the shot but in general I believe we are over the hump and ready for normalcy whether the CDC says so or not. We have had enough of bureaucratic overreach.

[coralway]

I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree.

[Gulfcoast]

Remember "Two weeks to slow the curve"? That was the advice of Fauci and the CDC before they really had an understanding of what was going on. When it became apparent that this was a much more serious health crisis, we had a leader who stepped up, cut through red tape, and got the ball rolling on vaccines and mitigation.

Now, 14 months later, we find the CDC and Fauci way behind the curve with their rules and mandates. Almost 55% vaccinated not counting those who have immunity from getting Covid. Yesterday TSA screened the highest number of air travelers since 14 months ago.

Yes, there are pockets where, I'll be blunt, Darwin's children refuse to get the shot but in general I believe we are over the hump and ready for normalcy whether the CDC says so or not. We have had enough of bureaucratic overreach.

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

[Bucco]

Remember "Two weeks to slow the curve"? That was the advice of Fauci and the CDC before they really had an understanding of what was going on. When it became apparent that this was a much more serious health crisis, we had a leader who stepped up, cut through red tape, and got the ball rolling on vaccines and mitigation.

Now, 14 months later, we find the CDC and Fauci way behind the curve with their rules and mandates. Almost 55% vaccinated not counting those who have immunity
from getting Covid. Yesterday TSA screened the highest number of air travelers since 14 months ago.

Yes, there are pockets where, I'll be blunt, Darwin's children refuse to get the shot but in general I believe we are over the hump and ready for normalcy whether the CDC says so or not. We have had enough of bureaucratic overreach.


Won’t argue any scientific with you, or anyone, but a few corrections in your post...

1. Dr Faucci was not . The person who made the announcement “ Actually, he was not even the advisor for the WH (that was Dr Brix at the time this announcement was made). This announcement was made on March 16, 2020, not by Faucci.

Fact is, a few days later, after we were told by the government (not Faucci) that this virus would dissipate by July or August of 2020, Faucci actually said that Americans should be staying home for “several weeks”.

Covid: A year later, Trump'''s '''15 days to slow the spread''' shows how little we knew (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/16/covid-a-year-later-trumps-15-days-to-slow-the-spread-pledge-shows-how-little-we-knew.html)

Fauci predicts Americans will likely need to stay home for at least several more weeks (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fauci-predicts-americans-will-likely-need-stay-home-least-several-n1164701)

Not a scientist, but I think the vaccine trials began in December of 2020, and that Pfizer worked with German money and scientific knowledge to get the vaccine going. I am sure that within WHO, there was sharing, however in May 2020, the US pulled out of WHO

I post this and if anything is in error, please correct. It just seems we have serious memory lapses and want to make Faucci the scapegoat always, even when he was not involved. He is not perfect to be sure, but misquoting and using partial truths is not fair.

[Bucco]

I think it is very easy to sit at a computer screen and second guess world leaders. World leaders have millions of lives at stake on every decision they make. No matter what decision they make a LOT of people are going to be unhappy. I am thankful to not be in that position and respect anyone that made the best decisions they could at the time.

I would agree, but equally as bad is the “misremembering” of facts, the distorted out of context quotes to make some obscure point.

Tough calls for all who were involved

[GrumpyOldMan]

Remember "Two weeks to slow the curve"? That was the advice of Fauci and the CDC before they really had an understanding of what was going on. When it became apparent that this was a much more serious health crisis, we had a leader who stepped up, cut through red tape, and got the ball rolling on vaccines and mitigation.

Now, 14 months later, we find the CDC and Fauci way behind the curve with their rules and mandates. Almost 55% vaccinated not counting those who have immunity from getting Covid. Yesterday TSA screened the highest number of air travelers since 14 months ago.

Yes, there are pockets where, I'll be blunt, Darwin's children refuse to get the shot but in general I believe we are over the hump and ready for normalcy whether the CDC says so or not. We have had enough of bureaucratic overreach.

Remember "just like the flu, and gone by April - magically".

Everyone made mistakes, everyone was learning as we went.

[Swoop]

I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree.

Disagree with what?!? We had the shut downs they are still dead. I truly don’t understand your post...

[coffeebean]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?
You ask "why"? There are many un-vaccinated people that are prime hosts for the virus to create more variants. Those variants have the ability to possibly render our current vaccines incapable of the protection they currently provide. It is all about mitigating the variants at this point, IMHO.

[Bucco]

Disagree with what?!? We had the shut downs they are still dead. I truly don’t understand your post...

Perhaps disagree with this sentence from a post just prior to that post

"when most people were never at great risk from this virus was misguided."

Then the post you question makes sense....

"I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree."

[tsmall22204]

Hind sight is 20/20

[Lindsyburnsy]

Hindsight is always the clearest. Sweden also has social programs that we don't that provides a safety net for their citizens.

[J1ceasar]

Decisions were made by governments and hindsight is easy to dispute good or bad. Why don't you simply look at California New York and Florida for the differences those two states were much more strict than Florida but it had more deaths per capita but really neither result was correct because what if we did not shut down and everyone died they'd be no economy whatsoever so you can air on the side of caution and I hope the government will support you the economic light or you can be a free spirit let everyone die and then wonder why there's no companies left

[MDLNB]

Wrong or right, a lot of actions by the gov had a lot to do with the final outcome.
A question that still needs to be answered is: How did this get started?
We KNOW for a fact that OUR government granted/gave China Wu Han lab research money. How much did that have to do with the Covid virus? The Director of NIH stated in a recent interview that the money was not "meant" to be used to weaponize the virus. He said it WAS meant for research into Sars. So, how much does our gov. know that they are not telling us? I understand the need for secrets, but there seems to be an awful lot of effort going into shrugging off the origination explanation of where it started and how it got spread worldwide. What are they hiding?
On a different subject, we are spending trillions of dollars that we do not have on blatant, frivolous spending. Who are we borrowing the money from? Are we printing more money? Who dictates how much money we can print? What is the difference between printing money and borrowing money? I am not an expert in finance or economics so folks like me just want some simple answers in layman terms. How can we be concerned about billions of dollars spent and now welcome trillions to be spent. Because some small percentage is being given to us in the form of Covid relief? No one is worried about the great debt that we are building? Did no one learn anything from Greece's bankruptcy? There are many countries out there waiting to ponce on us like vultures on a wounded animal. Who's going to bail us out, China?
Covid is being used by the gov to waste an awful lot of money and no one is paying attention.

[Dilligas]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?
Why not?

[Bill14564]

Was the impact really necessary? No, but no one could know that until after it had started. Hindsight is 20/20 but in the moment things aren't so clear.

I believe most (all?) Governors acted with the best intentions. Some chose to lock down hard and long and others took a more relaxed approach. It's easy to see that NY with its continuing restrictions (mask mandates even beyond the CDC recommendations otherwise) has had a higher death rate than FL with its light touch to restrictions. FL came through this in better shape but maybe we were just very lucky.

What concerns me is the tendency to act in "an abundance of caution" rather than taking evidence-based, measured steps. There was little or no concern for the economy, for individual freedoms, for mental health, or for anything other than squashing the curve. Some of the measures were necessary and probably kept the death toll from being twice as high. By downplaying or ignoring the economic and societal costs however, some unnecessary damage was done. We'll recover but it is a shame that the recovery is necessary.

Hopefully, there will not be a next time but realistically, there probably will be. With any luck we will learn from the past year and be better prepared to handle all the impacts.

[graciegirl]

Wrong or right, a lot of actions by the gov had a lot to do with the final outcome.
A question that still needs to be answered is: How did this get started?
We KNOW for a fact that OUR government granted/gave China Wu Han lab research money. How much did that have to do with the Covid virus? The Director of NIH stated in a recent interview that the money was not "meant" to be used to weaponize the virus. He said it WAS meant for research into Sars. So, how much does our gov. know that they are not telling us? I understand the need for secrets, but there seems to be an awful lot of effort going into shrugging off the origination explanation of where it started and how it got spread worldwide. What are they hiding?
On a different subject, we are spending trillions of dollars that we do not have on blatant, frivolous spending. Who are we borrowing the money from? Are we printing more money? Who dictates how much money we can print? What is the difference between printing money and borrowing money? I am not an expert in finance or economics so folks like me just want some simple answers in layman terms. How can we be concerned about billions of dollars spent and now welcome trillions to be spent. Because some small percentage is being given to us in the form of Covid relief? No one is worried about the great debt that we are building? Did no one learn anything from Greece's bankruptcy? There are many countries out there waiting to ponce on us like vultures on a wounded animal. Who's going to bail us out, China?
Covid is being used by the gov to waste an awful lot of money and no one is paying attention.

Grants & Funding | National Institutes of Health (NIH) (https://www.nih.gov/grants-funding)

Wuhan University (https://en.whu.edu.cn/About_WHU1.htm)

Wuhan University is an internationally respected medical school and research facility.

[beckylou152]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

Good points - as a nurse, I can say that you certainly may NOT have had COVID - who knows? The reason to have the vaccine is to achieve herd immunity. I’ve talked to so many people who are terrified of the vaccine. However, it is safe and the science behind it is good. Those who don’t get the vaccine are hoping the rest of us will provide herd immunity. Unfortunately, if you do get the virus, you can spread it. It kills a lot of people and causes long term problems. That being said, I believe in free choice, although I don’t understand why people don’t want to keep the virus from spreading to those who are vulnerable. To each his own!

[Pedrocarrasco01@yahoo.com]

I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree.

Out of the 5 people that I know that death was attributed to Covid 19, one was battling Stage 4 Lung Cancer, Another one was battling 2 major strokes and paralyzed, one had Pancreatic Cancer, One was on the list for a heart transplant, and the last one died of Covid 19, I am not a Doctor, but my point is that a lot of deaths attributed to COVID-19 were of people that had other maladies and their immune system was compromised and couldn’t fight this virus. Yes the virus is real, however if you are have a normal immune system, your chances of surviving it are good. We closed the best economy in our history, closed schools, however WalMart, Target, Lowe’s, Home Depot and other major retailers stayed open, our small business was annihilated, many of them were forced to go out of business. We had major differences on reports by the CDC, WHO, Fauci and others one day wear two masks, wear no mask, wear a shield. Open our Country, those that want to wear masks, please continue, those that don’t want to eat in restaurants, that is your choice, don’t want to shop, not a problem, however please don’t demand that I have to, I am fully vaccinated, let’s get back to Normal, we are here in Florida and I thank our Governor for that. May God Bless America!!!

[Bill14564]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?

Cases are falling in part because people are getting vaccinated. They have fallen to about 35,000 new cases per day and 600 deaths per day. A yearly death toll of about 220,000 does not seem acceptably low.

It is likely that each of the deaths (over 600 per day) was someone who said, "we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated?"

While "the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced," the vaccination goes farther and reduces the risk by a factor of 20.

The arguments against Covid vaccinations sound similar to the arguments against measles vaccinations which led to the outbreak in early 2019. We need to learn from the past and avoid a Covid resurgence in the fall.

[bruce213]

It will be interesting in a few years to compare Ca and Fl. Similar states that took different approaches.

[DeanFL]

.
.
ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETLY, TOTALLY, PERFECTLY said my Friend.

EXACTLY my point of view as well. I cannot add much other than, thank you.:bigbow:
.
.
Out of the 5 people that I know that death was attributed to Covid 19, one was battling Stage 4 Lung Cancer, Another one was battling 2 major strokes and paralyzed, one had Pancreatic Cancer, One was on the list for a heart transplant, and the last one died of Covid 19, I am not a Doctor, but my point is that a lot of deaths attributed to COVID-19 were of people that had other maladies and their immune system was compromised and couldn’t fight this virus. Yes the virus is real, however if you are have a normal immune system, your chances of surviving it are good. We closed the best economy in our history, closed schools, however WalMart, Target, Lowe’s, Home Depot and other major retailers stayed open, our small business was annihilated, many of them were forced to go out of business. We had major differences on reports by the CDC, WHO, Fauci and others one day wear two masks, wear no mask, wear a shield. Open our Country, those that want to wear masks, please continue, those that don’t want to eat in restaurants, that is your choice, don’t want to shop, not a problem, however please don’t demand that I have to, I am fully vaccinated, let’s get back to Normal, we are here in Florida and I thank our Governor for that.
May God Bless America!!!
.
.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Decisions were made by governments and hindsight is easy to dispute good or bad. Why don't you simply look at California New York and Florida for the differences those two states were much more strict than Florida but it had more deaths per capita but really neither result was correct because what if we did not shut down and everyone died they'd be no economy whatsoever so you can air on the side of caution and I hope the government will support you the economic light or you can be a free spirit let everyone die and then wonder why there's no companies left

The most likely reasons those states had higher rates are numerous - majority international hubs, mass transit is heavily used, population density, etc. All contribute to a more rapid spread of a virus and an overwhelming of medical systems.

I don't know of any models that suggest everyone would die (extinction level event) if we did nothing - a LOT, but not everyone.

The issue is what is the purpose of government. And conservatives and liberals disagree on that - it is almost the entire disagreement between them. Liberals (me) believe the purpose of government is to do things the people want to be done that the people can't reasonably do alone or even as a company. For instance, reaching the moon, building the Interstate highway, the post office, etc. Conservatives believe that free-market capitalism will supply what people want - ie. supply and demand. Obviously, there is a spectrum from the radical right to the radical left, with many shades of purple in between.

As a liberal, I believe one of the purposes of the government would be to take control of pandemic mitigation. I personally feel the government should have required masks, should have used the emergency production act to supply needed items, like masks and ventilators, etc.

I completely agree with the government providing economic support for people impacted by the pandemic - another of those "things a government should do".

I think the government could have done a lot more to work with companies to figure out how to make the workplace safe for those companies that are involved in critical production.

But, I agree we are where we are. Pointing fingers might make us feel better, but will not help us move forward. We are in a terrible situation, and we can't solve it, so by my definition, it is the job of the government. We need the government to take aggressive actions to stimulate the creation of a mix of temporary and long-term jobs. I see the government trying to do that now, unfortunately, I also see some people trying to prevent the government from doing anything.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

counter factual are "impossible" to prove because they didn't happen. . .
counter fatals are at best, an opinion, but unless you are in the position of making responsible decisions for others, such as doctors, elected officials, etc, you are just complaining or are a Russian disinformation troll

since the last major pandemic was about 100 years ago without modern medicine and world wide news and cooperation, or even work wide communications.. . . this pandemic was a unique and first event. . . so unless you have a crystal ball better than science, you are just picking at your own scab hoping others will sympathize with you

[donassaid]

Covid is and was a political "planned-demic". Never before has a disease or virus with a 99% survival rate had such extreme measures forced upon its citizens. The ultimate impact financially, emotionally, and socially will never be calculated with the effects on school children, people unable to schedule critical surgeries, attend funerals, weddings, graduations, be with their hispitalized spouses, etc. Pure, unadulterated, absolute insanity driven by unhinged fear.

[merrymini]

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

I do not understand your post.

If you are suggesting that the 570,000 dead Americans didn't die from COVID, I disagree. The numbers are supported by numerous forms of evidence. Could you share your evidence of fraud/errors/whatever?

The numbers in the US are consistent with the numbers from around the world, so the conspiracy would have to also be international.

If that is what you are suggesting, then somehow all the governments in the world agree to conspire to inflate the number of people that died from COVID.

[Bill14564]

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

I do not understand your post.

If you are suggesting that the 570,000 dead Americans didn't die from COVID, I disagree. The numbers are supported by numerous forms of evidence. Could you share your evidence of fraud/errors/whatever?

The numbers in the US are consistent with the numbers from around the world, so the conspiracy would have to also be international.

If that is what you are suggesting, then somehow all the governments in the world agree to conspire to inflate the number of people that died from COVID.

I lost count of how many times I asked a poster to document their claim that there were significantly fewer than 500,000 additional deaths in 2020. Maybe you'll have better luck getting an answer.

[tuccillo]

Here are the facts. The number of deaths in calendar year 2020 are still provisional numbers. However, the CDC is estimating the number of excess deaths for calendar year 2020 at over 300K. Excess deaths is the number of deaths over what is expected. The excess deaths in 2020 are clearly COVID related, either directly or indirectly. The current 500K number (of COVID deaths) includes 4-5 months in 2021 so it is obviously in excess of the calendar year 2020 numbers.

Too bad the death numbers from 2019 and 2020 do not support the over 500,000 plus figure. I guess facts do not matter.

[GeriS]

I think it is very easy to sit at a computer screen and second guess world leaders. World leaders have millions of lives at stake on every decision they make. No matter what decision they make a LOT of people are going to be unhappy. I am thankful to not be in that position and respect anyone that made the best decisions they could at the time.
World leaders do not have our best interests at heart. They only have theirs.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Here are the facts. The number of deaths in calendar year 2020 are still provisional numbers. However, the CDC is estimating the number of excess deaths for calendar year 2020 at over 300K. Excess deaths is the number of deaths over what is expected. The 500K number (of COVID deaths) includes 4-5 months in 2021so it is obviously in excess of the calendar year numbers.

That does not prove anything. "excess deaths" means more total deaths than would be normally expected. It does NOT take into account reductions in deaths that would have accused without COVID.

Sorry, that is not evidence.

[Eg_cruz]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...
One thing for sure “you can’t win for losing with Covid”.
We can Monday night quarterback but it won’t change the out come of the game.....all we can do is learn from this. I truly feel if we weren’t so divided as a nation we would have walked through this 100% better

[tuccillo]

I assume you mean "occurred" and not "accused"?? The number of expected deaths each year increases, presumably because of a continually aging population. There was no other event in 2020 that can account for a roughly 10% increase in the number of expected deaths. 10% is a large spike in a number with normally small variations. I am sure someone at some point will do the statistical hypothesis test.

That does not prove anything. "excess deaths" means more total deaths than would be normally expected. It does NOT take into account reductions in deaths that would have accused without COVID.

Sorry, that is not evidence.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I assume you mean "occurred" and not "accused"?? The number of expected deaths each year increases, presumably because of a continually aging population. There was no other event in 2020 that can account for a roughly 10% increase in the number of expected deaths. 10% is a large spike in a number with normally small variations. I am sure someone at some point will do the statistical hypothesis test.

Yes, auto-correct got me.

"No Other Event", should probably read "No Other Known Event". because something is not known does not make it a fact that it doesn't exist.

I will continue to trust experts until there is evidence they are lying.

[Bill14564]

Here are the facts. The number of deaths in calendar year 2020 are still provisional numbers. However, the CDC is estimating the number of excess deaths for calendar year 2020 at over 300K. Excess deaths is the number of deaths over what is expected. The excess deaths in 2020 are clearly COVID related, either directly or indirectly. The current 500K number (of COVID deaths) includes 4-5 months in 2021 so it is obviously in excess of the calendar year 2020 numbers.

Did your 300K number come from this page (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm)? That estimate was from January until October 3. Add 58 days at 700 average deaths and 31 days at 1,500 average deaths and you get close to 400,000 for the year.

Using the data at the bottom of this CDC page (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/) (data here (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2020-2021/data/NCHSData18.csv)) you can see that there were 583,877 more deaths in 2020 than in 2019. While some of this data is still preliminary, it is from actual counts and not estimations.

[tuccillo]

Please feel free to speculate on what other event occurred in 2020 that could have given rise to a 10% increase in the expected deaths. The provisional number of excess deaths is consistent with the reported number of COVID related deaths. Both were about 300K through calendar year 2020.

Yes, auto-correct got me.

"No Other Event", should probably read "No Other Known Event". because something is not known does not make it a fact that it doesn't exist.

I will continue to trust experts until there is evidence they are lying.

[tuccillo]

I thought the 500K number included part of 2021?

Did your 300K number come from this page (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm)? That estimate was from January until October 3. Add 58 days at 700 average deaths and 31 days at 1,500 average deaths and you get close to 400,000 for the year.

Using the data at the bottom of this CDC page (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/) (data here (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2020-2021/data/NCHSData18.csv)) you can see that there were 583,877 more deaths in 2020 than in 2019. While some of this data is still preliminary, it is from actual counts and not estimations.

[Bill14564]

I thought the 500K number included part of 2021?

Don't trust me, look at the data (# deaths by week).

[Waltdisney4life]

I love people who like to “supposedly fact no one knows that’s the fact we been lied to we’ve been missed lead special interest or given priority.
Never forget the media is our true enemy. The more fearful they make us the more we watch the more money they make sad fact!

[kenoc7]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?
Why? Herd immunity and the common good.

[Gulfcoast]

You ask "why"? There are many un-vaccinated people that are prime hosts for the virus to create more variants. Those variants have the ability to possibly render our current vaccines incapable of the protection they currently provide. It is all about mitigating the variants at this point, IMHO.

If we already have natural immunity to the virus that the vaccine is meant to protect against, then why get a vaccine when we are already immune?

For the people who have been out there all along during this pandemic, keeping things running and making it possible for the more vulnerable to stay safe, I think it's only fair to let those workers decide for themselves whether or not to get the vaccine.

[Gulfcoast]

Why? Herd immunity and the common good.

A person with natural immunity doesn't need a vaccination to keep the herd safe.

[tuccillo]

The NY Times reported 574K excess deaths through February 2021 for the time window of COVID-19. I had previously seen 339K (i.e. over 300K) for calendar year 2020.

I would guess that expected deaths for 2021 and a few years beyond might actually decrease because premature COVID-related deaths among the elderly.

Don't trust me, look at the data (# deaths by week).

[GrumpyOldMan]

A person with natural immunity doesn't need a vaccination to keep the herd safe.

There is no natural immunity prior to getting COVID.

[Bill14564]

The NY Times reported 574K excess deaths through February 2021 for the time window of COVID-19. I had previously seen 339K (i.e. over 300K) for calendar year 2020.

I would guess that expected deaths for 2021 and a few years beyond might actually decrease because premature COVID-related deaths among the elderly.

The NYT probably reported 574K Covid deaths; there are excess deaths beyond the number currently attributed to Covid. But I don't have a link to the NYT data and since it should have been based on something official like the CDC page, that's the data I worked with.

2021 deaths will still be affected by Covid, though far less than 2020. I agree that the yearly numbers will likely be lower for several years to come.

[Gulfcoast]

There is no natural immunity prior to getting COVID.

Right. But if you've already had Covid and have recovered from it then you do have natural immunity to it. The workers who were out there all along have already been exposed countless times to the virus, they have likely had the virus already and recovered from it. Most people, thankfully, do not get that sick from it.

[tuccillo]

No, the NYT article I was referring to had 574K excess death, not COVID deaths, through February 2021. I didn't bookmark the link. I also saw one report that estimated at 70% of excess deaths were COVID deaths. Presumably, some of the rest is COVID-related, such as not seeking medical help because of concerns about being exposed to the coronavirus.

The NYT probably reported 574K Covid deaths; there are excess deaths beyond the number currently attributed to Covid. But I don't have a link to the NYT data and since it should have been based on something official like the CDC page, that's the data I worked with.

2021 deaths will still be affected by Covid, though far less than 2020. I agree that the yearly numbers will likely be lower for several years to come.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Right. But if you've already had Covid and have recovered from it then you do have natural immunity to it. The workers who were out there all along have already been exposed countless times to the virus, they have likely had the virus already and recovered from it. Most people, thankfully, do not get that sick from it.

Agreed. I am not sure how this is related to the economic impact of COVID.

But, I agree with your statement, with the condition that having recovered from one variant of COVID does not necessarily give you immunity to any other - the same is true with Vaccines.

[Bill14564]

No, the NYT article had 574K excess death, not COVID deaths, through February 2021. I didn't bookmark the link.

Well then the NYT didn't use the data from the CDC site that I linked above. I have no idea what the NYT based their number on.

OR, they used that data but noted that their numbers may be undercounts since the data was still being updated.

[Swoop]

Yes, WEPOTUS was good on getting vaccine development going but he was pathetic on everything else holding super spreader events and not supporting sensible public health measures. If the US had used Sweden's approach the death numbers would have been exponentially higher.
What makes you think that our death rate would have been “exponentially higher”? We “flattered the curve” they took their hit upfront. In the end, the percentage was the same...

[Gulfcoast]

Agreed. I am not sure how this is related to the economic impact of COVID.

But, I agree with your statement, with the condition that having recovered from one variant of COVID does not necessarily give you immunity to any other - the same is true with Vaccines.

The targeted shutdowns were unnecessary and did more harm than good. Grocery store clerks could go to work but salons were shut down for whatever reason. You could get a fast food burger but there for awhile you couldn't get your eyes checked at the optometrist which never made much sense to me. It would have been better if people had been allowed to mitigate their own risks as they do with any other virus.

[MDLNB]

Is the increase in suicides considered COVID related deaths?
Almost all the folks that died "from" or "with" COVID would presumably have a limited time left anyway. Not to be crass, but regardless of whether they died last year, this year or next year, they were not expected to live indefinitely. Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those deaths were of seniors over 65 and how that will effect Social Security and Medicare.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Is the increase in suicides considered COVID related deaths?
Almost all the folks that died "from" or "with" COVID would presumably have a limited time left anyway. Not to be crass, but regardless of whether they died last year, this year or next year, they were not expected to live indefinitely. Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those deaths were of seniors over 65 and how that will effect Social Security and Medicare.

Okay, I am not sure how that relates to the thread, but I will agree with you life has a 100% fatality rate - sooner or later - so far. So, what's the point of living?

[Bill14564]

Is the increase in suicides considered COVID related deaths?
Almost all the folks that died "from" or "with" COVID would presumably have a limited time left anyway. Not to be crass, but regardless of whether they died last year, this year or next year, they were not expected to live indefinitely. Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those deaths were of seniors over 65 and how that will effect Social Security and Medicare.

Unlike the rest of us who *are* expected to live indefinitely? You many not intend to be crass but it sounds a little like you are okay with the idea of culling the herd.

[tuccillo]

About 80% of the deaths were people 65 and over. This represents a bit less than 1% of the people drawing Social Security benefits for retirement (about 80% of the actual SS recipients). I doubt it will have much impact.

Is the increase in suicides considered COVID related deaths?
Almost all the folks that died "from" or "with" COVID would presumably have a limited time left anyway. Not to be crass, but regardless of whether they died last year, this year or next year, they were not expected to live indefinitely. Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of those deaths were of seniors over 65 and how that will effect Social Security and Medicare.

[Gulfcoast]

Apparently going to your cashier job at Walmart is "safe" but that same cashier spending a nice day at the beach is a "super spreader" event. Or at least that was the way it was only a year ago.

[MDLNB]

There is no natural immunity prior to getting COVID.


Ah, but some have a natural RESISTANCE to it, perhaps. I doubt I am immune to the Flu, but I must have a resistance to it since I have never had it.

[Gulfcoast]

Ah, but some have a natural RESISTANCE to it, perhaps. I doubt I am immune to the Flu, but I must have a resistance to it since I have never had it.

I suspect that exposure to previous Coronaviruses in the past made some people especially resistant to Covid-19 and also helped to keep the symptoms mild in most of the people who did catch it.

[jimjamuser]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...
The following information was taken from Sage Journals......as of July 5, 2020, Sweden had a death rate of .54 / 1,000 population. That was about 10 TIMES HIGHER than its neighbors Norway, Denmark, and Finland. The Swedes SCRAPPED their incorrect attempt at herd immunity and CHANGED QUICKLY to more restrictive MANDATES. They ADAPTED well! Please google Sage Journals.

[jimjamuser]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...
Try comparing Finland's death rate to the US's. As of May 12, 2021, Finland had ONLY 930 CV deaths. 939 / Finlands population of 5,548,360 equals .00017 ..........MUCH lower than the US! It shows what the US COULD have done with social intelligence and leadership more like a REAL country!

[graciegirl]

There is no natural immunity prior to getting COVID.

Yes!!!

People keep saying things like this; I am healthy, I don't take medicine, I have a lot of natural immunity, if you isolate your self you lose your natural immunity. I work out. I eat healthy, and my blood pressure is good. I don't need the shot.

AND I say just what you said. If you have not had the shot or had Covid-19 you have no immunity to it. ZERO. Zilch. NADA.

[Gulfcoast]

A person who has already had the virus is not going to get any benefit, whatsoever, from getting the vaccine. Why should they feel compelled to expose themselves to possible adverse side effects if the vaccination will do them no good anyway?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Funny when all these civilized countries need help we have to bail them out and there still sucking on uncle sams dollar. How about those civilized countries paying us back for our sacrifice? O. I see they don’t help out uncivilized countries.

Please list the civilized countries we have "bailed out" recently.

[Gulfcoast]

The overreach seen in some states is getting some push back now, finally. The vaccine has changed the formula and it is much harder to justify draconian mandates. Hopefully, sanity will be returning across the country because we really, really need for it to.

[jimjamuser]

Sweden remained open during Covid. Bars, restaurants, schools, businesses, gyms etc. They initially had a spike in Covid deaths, but where are they today? The pundits all told us that they made a terrible mistake and their population would suffer because of their decision to remain open. The US shut schools, forced businesses to close, isolated families, trashed the economy and compounded the national debt. But we saved lives - right? Not based on the statistics we didn’t. Sweden has a population of 10.23 million and 14,267 Covid deaths. We have a population of 328.2 million and 584,000 Covid deaths. That’s .0014 of Sweden’s population and .0018 of the US population...
Sweden did make a TERRIBLE mistake!!!!!!! When you compare them to their comparable sister countries like Finland, Denmark, and Norway, then Sweden has a DEATH rate ten times higher or more! The US can NOT be compared to the Scandinavian countries because THEY have the MUCH SUPERIOR health care system! The US has superior Universities and good Doctors and medical knowledge, but the care that TRICKLES DOWN to the average US person is PATHETIC. Look at the world lists, the US is around 35th in health categories. If you don't have good medical insurance or NO medical insurance, see how well you are treated! Slovenia, for example, is much higher on the world lists than the US. Look it up - if you don't believe me!

[Joe V.]

Please list the civilized countries we have "bailed out" recently.


Hundreds of billions of US dollars are transferred from the US Treasury to the IMF. That way other countries can suck on the US teat under some cover. Each year directed funds are authorized by congress to dozens of countries, individually. And do not forget the World Bank (US being a major shareholder) money laundering socialist schemes.


As far as what countries get what you can do you own research easily on line.

[jimjamuser]

Did you mean was it unescapable? This is the difficulty. This never before faced difficulty by those now living on earth brought many unsolvable problems. Our leaders faced them and none really solved them but used compromises. They would be damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

Naturally a deadly virus that attacks the whole world is going to slow down economic exchange. It is like the story of King Solomon and the two women who both claimed to be the mother to a baby. He asked them....Should I divide the child with my sword?? We were in that kind of mess with this Pandemic. There was no PAT answer. People do not want to die and they do not want their loved ones to die and they do not want their income to stop.

Now we are opening back up and the stipends are making things worse, not better.
Many other countries solved the SAME problem. Avoid ethnocentrism!

[jimjamuser]

I think that the highly selective business shutdowns were not necessary in this situation and did more harm than good to the country. Ditto school shutdowns.

I think the added precautions in LTC facilities saved lives and were necessary. Beyond that, I think that people should have just been allowed to assess the risks for themselves and reacted accordingly. Painting everyone with one broad brush when most people were never at great risk from this virus was misguided.
Unfortunately, each of us is NOT an island unto themselves.

[jimjamuser]

Remember "Two weeks to slow the curve"? That was the advice of Fauci and the CDC before they really had an understanding of what was going on. When it became apparent that this was a much more serious health crisis, we had a leader who stepped up, cut through red tape, and got the ball rolling on vaccines and mitigation.

Now, 14 months later, we find the CDC and Fauci way behind the curve with their rules and mandates. Almost 55% vaccinated not counting those who have immunity from getting Covid. Yesterday TSA screened the highest number of air travelers since 14 months ago.

Yes, there are pockets where, I'll be blunt, Darwin's children refuse to get the shot but in general I believe we are over the hump and ready for normalcy whether the CDC says so or not. We have had enough of bureaucratic overreach.
Why do we blame the bureaucracy when we voted them in and we don't take the time to contemplate what is wrong with our system. For example, in Australia, everyone votes or they get a fine. Start with that! Too many are ethnocentric and assume that the US is PERFECT!

[jimjamuser]

Disagree with what?!? We had the shut downs they are still dead. I truly don’t understand your post...
That is the fallacy of a FALSE NEGATIVE. Without the shutdowns, the deaths COULD HAVE BEEN higher, like one MILLION. But I can't prove a negative, so keep up the lack of logic!

[jimjamuser]

You ask "why"? There are many un-vaccinated people that are prime hosts for the virus to create more variants. Those variants have the ability to possibly render our current vaccines incapable of the protection they currently provide. It is all about mitigating the variants at this point, IMHO.
Correct..........your bean is working great!

[jimjamuser]

Hindsight is always the clearest. Sweden also has social programs that we don't that provides a safety net for their citizens.
Correct!!!!!!!!!

[Aloha1]

Won’t argue any scientific with you, or anyone, but a few corrections in your post...

1. Dr Faucci was not . The person who made the announcement “ Actually, he was not even the advisor for the WH (that was Dr Brix at the time this announcement was made). This announcement was made on March 16, 2020, not by Faucci.

Fact is, a few days later, after we were told by the government (not Faucci) that this virus would dissipate by July or August of 2020, Faucci actually said that Americans should be staying home for “several weeks”.

Covid: A year later, Trump'''s '''15 days to slow the spread''' shows how little we knew (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/16/covid-a-year-later-trumps-15-days-to-slow-the-spread-pledge-shows-how-little-we-knew.html)

Fauci predicts Americans will likely need to stay home for at least several more weeks (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fauci-predicts-americans-will-likely-need-stay-home-least-several-n1164701)

Not a scientist, but I think the vaccine trials began in December of 2020, and that Pfizer worked with German money and scientific knowledge to get the vaccine going. I am sure that within WHO, there was sharing, however in May 2020, the US pulled out of WHO

I post this and if anything is in error, please correct. It just seems we have serious memory lapses and want to make Faucci the scapegoat always, even when he was not involved. He is not perfect to be sure, but misquoting and using partial truths is not fair.

Fauci was present at both events and reitierated the comments. And the "a few more weeks" comment he made came after that meeting.

Bottom line, He had no clue and neither did Dr. Scarf. Like the CDC they both played and continue to play catch up with reality.

[jimjamuser]

Wrong or right, a lot of actions by the gov had a lot to do with the final outcome.
A question that still needs to be answered is: How did this get started?
We KNOW for a fact that OUR government granted/gave China Wu Han lab research money. How much did that have to do with the Covid virus? The Director of NIH stated in a recent interview that the money was not "meant" to be used to weaponize the virus. He said it WAS meant for research into Sars. So, how much does our gov. know that they are not telling us? I understand the need for secrets, but there seems to be an awful lot of effort going into shrugging off the origination explanation of where it started and how it got spread worldwide. What are they hiding?
On a different subject, we are spending trillions of dollars that we do not have on blatant, frivolous spending. Who are we borrowing the money from? Are we printing more money? Who dictates how much money we can print? What is the difference between printing money and borrowing money? I am not an expert in finance or economics so folks like me just want some simple answers in layman terms. How can we be concerned about billions of dollars spent and now welcome trillions to be spent. Because some small percentage is being given to us in the form of Covid relief? No one is worried about the great debt that we are building? Did no one learn anything from Greece's bankruptcy? There are many countries out there waiting to ponce on us like vultures on a wounded animal. Who's going to bail us out, China?
Covid is being used by the gov to waste an awful lot of money and no one is paying attention.
Another myth. Today debt to GDP is about the same as the last 60 years. Looking at the absolute number of the debt is MEANINGLESS!!!!!!

[Aloha1]

Remember "just like the flu, and gone by April - magically".

Everyone made mistakes, everyone was learning as we went.

No argument there as that is what I stated. If your advisors give you faulty info then what do you expect?

[jimjamuser]

Covid is and was a political "planned-demic". Never before has a disease or virus with a 99% survival rate had such extreme measures forced upon its citizens. The ultimate impact financially, emotionally, and socially will never be calculated with the effects on school children, people unable to schedule critical surgeries, attend funerals, weddings, graduations, be with their hispitalized spouses, etc. Pure, unadulterated, absolute insanity driven by unhinged fear.
To me, that is nonsense.

[jimjamuser]

If we already have natural immunity to the virus that the vaccine is meant to protect against, then why get a vaccine when we are already immune?

For the people who have been out there all along during this pandemic, keeping things running and making it possible for the more vulnerable to stay safe, I think it's only fair to let those workers decide for themselves whether or not to get the vaccine.
Over 1/2 A MILLION people died of CV. They did not have that immunity that you speak of.

[Aloha1]

Correct!

Nope.

[jimjamuser]

Right. But if you've already had Covid and have recovered from it then you do have natural immunity to it. The workers who were out there all along have already been exposed countless times to the virus, they have likely had the virus already and recovered from it. Most people, thankfully, do not get that sick from it.
Over 1/2 MILLION US citizens DIED. That IS significant..... don't you think??????

[jimjamuser]

Yet the world's migrants all want to come here. They are not charging over the borders of Scandinavia. They must not be as smart as you.
The Scandanavians PROTECT their borders RIGOROUSLY. So do the Canadians. And REALLY everyone knows this. Do I HAVE to spell it out?

[jimjamuser]

A person who has already had the virus is not going to get any benefit, whatsoever, from getting the vaccine. Why should they feel compelled to expose themselves to possible adverse side effects if the vaccination will do them no good anyway?
That's JUST not true.

[Gulfcoast]

Over 1/2 MILLION US citizens DIED. That IS significant..... don't you think??????

The point is, that in order for the most vulnerable to stay safe, others had to risk getting Covid to keep our food supply going and our health system operational. Thankfully, Covid was not a big issue for most healthy people.

Those that went to work every day - whether they delivered your pizza to you or made sure that your prescriptions got filled or brought your groceries to you for curbside pick up - deserve our appreciation. Without them, things really would have gotten pretty dire for all of us.

[Gulfcoast]

That's JUST not true.

Yes, it is true. And, FWIW, most of the people who are opting not to get the vaccine have some first hand experience with COVID. They are making an informed decision based on their own personal risk factors.

The vaccines have had enough documented, adverse side effects to question the wisdom of getting the vaccine if you've already had and recovered from the virus.

[jimjamuser]

The point is, that in order for the most vulnerable to stay safe, others had to risk getting Covid to keep our food supply going and our health system operational. Thankfully, Covid was not a big issue for most healthy people.

Those that went to work every day - whether they delivered your pizza to you or made sure that your prescriptions got filled or brought your groceries to you for curbside pick up - deserve our appreciation. Without them, things really would have gotten pretty dire for all of us.
I believe that Amazon Prime and Walmart can DELIVER just about anything. They did during the quarantine. The economy was slower, but it continued along. It was safer with less exposure to CV. Florida opened up too soon because of greed for profit over protecting its citizens. The 1st rule of government is NOT to protect the profits - it is to PROTECT the people. That is the point of government because individuals can NOT protect other individuals as well as a regional or federal government can! .......Government 101.

[jimjamuser]

Yes, it is true. And, FWIW, most of the people who are opting not to get the vaccine have some first hand experience with COVID. They are making an informed decision based on their own personal risk factors.

The vaccines have had enough documented, adverse side effects to question the wisdom of getting the vaccine if you've already had and recovered from the virus.
OK, you have made your decision. I wish you well. Good luck.

[Gulfcoast]

I believe that Amazon Prime and Walmart can DELIVER just about anything. They did during the quarantine. The economy was slower, but it continued along. It was safer with less exposure to CV. Florida opened up too soon because of greed for profit over protecting its citizens. The 1st rule of government is NOT to protect the profits - it is to PROTECT the people. That is the point of government because individuals can NOT protect other individuals as well as a regional or federal government can! .......Government 101.

The delivery drivers, the people working in the warehouse/shipping and the workers loading up the trucks are around their fellow coworkers and they do sometimes have interactions with the public.

Florida was absolutely correct in their approach. They protected their most vulnerable citizens in the LTCs, first and foremost, and then they reopened businesses, government offices and got the kids back to their physical schools. Florida is the gold standard for how things should have been handled.

There are states that have had their kids out of school so long that they aren't even clear where some of their students are anymore. The kids have completely checked out of distance learning and are off doing...whatever....bored kids with nothing to do...do. It's quite the train wreck.

[MDLNB]

Please list the civilized countries we have "bailed out" recently.
Ever heard of Foreign Aid?
Ever heard of Military Aid? Also known as Security Aid.
Although, you may not feel that they are "civilized countries."

[Swoop]

I believe that Amazon Prime and Walmart can DELIVER just about anything. They did during the quarantine. The economy was slower, but it continued along. It was safer with less exposure to CV. Florida opened up too soon because of greed for profit over protecting its citizens. The 1st rule of government is NOT to protect the profits - it is to PROTECT the people. That is the point of government because individuals can NOT protect other individuals as well as a regional or federal government can! .......Government 101.
And yet Florida still did better than the states with severe lockdowns like NY, PA, MI, etc. Florida did a better job of protecting the vulnerable while keeping the economy running. Fewer deaths, less damage the the economy. I would say that Florida is one state that got it right...

[MDLNB]

Interesting how a person can talk about how GREAT other countries are and how bad our country is, and yet knows NOTHING other than what he/she reads. Try living in those other countries and when I say that, I mean live WITH the other citizens and see how they really live. Sure, they love their socialism. Why? Because they never knew anything else and wouldn't know what to do without the gov nanny. Just like some on here. Needy folks that THINK they want what's on the other side of the pond.
On the other hand, our poverty rated folks on welfare live as well as the middle class in other countries.
When talking about those dinky little countries in Europe, take into consideration their population before running off at the mouth with verbal diarrhea.

[jimjamuser]

The delivery drivers, the people working in the warehouse/shipping and the workers loading up the trucks are around their fellow coworkers and they do sometimes have interactions with the public.

Florida was absolutely correct in their approach. They protected their most vulnerable citizens in the LTCs, first and foremost, and then they reopened businesses, government offices and got the kids back to their physical schools. Florida is the gold standard for how things should have been handled.

There are states that have had their kids out of school so long that they aren't even clear where some of their students are anymore. The kids have completely checked out of distance learning and are off doing...whatever....bored kids with nothing to do...do. It's quite the train wreck.
Children are incredibly resilient. This is not meant to be a universal example - but, in 1st grade, I was having trouble relating to, 'Puff and Jane went up the hill-hill'. My parents bought me some comic books and that worked for me. By the end of 1st grade I was reading with the top group (the bluebirds, I think)!

[Gulfcoast]

I've seen estimates that the number of kids who have not attended school AT ALL - distance learning included - since the school shutdowns happened could be as high as 3 million kids. 3 million kids in this country have been out of school for over a year.

Some are working, some are watching younger siblings while their parents work, some are doing who knows what. It's shameful.

[jimjamuser]

And yet Florida still did better than the states with severe lockdowns like NY, PA, MI, etc. Florida did a better job of protecting the vulnerable while keeping the economy running. Fewer deaths, less damage the the economy. I would say that Florida is one state that got it right...
Not so fast.........sports fans.......data for the last 7 days from CDC CV tracker lists Florida among the top 8 states for NEW CV cases. We are equal to Mi. Greater than both NY and Pa. And Ca. is MUCH less than Florida. Those are the facts and CASES are the leading indicator. Please look them up yourself and do NOT argue with the facts and hopefully, not myself!

[davidkath]

Covid was the biggest fraud perpetrated on mankind!

[Topspinmo]

Please list the civilized countries we have "bailed out" recently.

Why does it have to be recently? You mean like last week? We can can start with all the wars and conflicts.then we can move to foreign aid.

[Topspinmo]

Why do we blame the bureaucracy when we voted them in and we don't take the time to contemplate what is wrong with our system. For example, in Australia, everyone votes or they get a fine. Start with that! Too many are ethnocentric and assume that the US is PERFECT!

Over here for many that would be like taking the hand out money back. We can’t do that. Some may not get voted back in.

[Swoop]

Not so fast.........sports fans.......data for the last 7 days from CDC CV tracker lists Florida among the top 8 states for NEW CV cases. We are equal to Mi. Greater than both NY and Pa. And Ca. is MUCH less than Florida. Those are the facts and CASES are the leading indicator. Please look them up yourself and do NOT argue with the facts and hopefully, not myself!

Florida has been open for a long time. What does the last 7 days have to do with that?!?
FL 35,999 Covid deaths
FL population 21,477,737
NY 52,366 Covid deaths
NY population 19,453,561
PA 26,780 Covid deaths
PA population 12,801,989
MI 19,665 Covid deaths
MI population 9,986,857
Based on the percentage of their population, Florida has done much better that the strict lockdown states.
Sorry just facts...

[tophcfa]

Yes

[GrumpyOldMan]

Florida has been open for a long time. What does the last 7 days have to do with that?!?
FL 35,999 Covid deaths
FL population 21,477,737
NY 52,366 Covid deaths
NY population 19,453,561
PA 26,780 Covid deaths
PA population 12,801,989
MI 19,665 Covid deaths
MI population 9,986,857
Based on the percentage of their population, Florida has done much better that the strict lockdown states.
Sorry just facts...

Exactly what is that list supposed to show? Based on population? Seriously?

You seem to imply there is a direct correlation between population and COVID deaths, without taking hundreds of other contributing factors into consideration. Like age demographics, poverty, access to healthcare, population density, tourists, international travelers, and on and on.

[jimjamuser]

Florida has been open for a long time. What does the last 7 days have to do with that?!?
FL 35,999 Covid deaths
FL population 21,477,737
NY 52,366 Covid deaths
NY population 19,453,561
PA 26,780 Covid deaths
PA population 12,801,989
MI 19,665 Covid deaths
MI population 9,986,857
Based on the percentage of their population, Florida has done much better that the strict lockdown states.
Sorry just facts...
I couldn't help but notice that you no longer mentioned Ca. As far as which CV statistics are more important - the expression comes to mind, "what past is past and can NOT be controlled, only the future can." At drivers training school you are taught NOT to spend much time looking in the rearview mirror - you control what's in front of you better.

The recent week's CV cases are leading indicators of how each state will probably do in the future. Judging by the cases in those 5 states, hospitals in Fl. and Mi. had better prepare for a greater influx of patients than NY, Pa., and Ca. It also shows that RIGHT NOW as far as CV goes, it would be better to live in NY and Pa than in Fl. And MUCH better in Ca. The CDC puts out those statistics NOT for historical purposes, but as a warning for FUTURE problem areas or hot spots!

[Swoop]

Exactly what is that list supposed to show? Based on population? Seriously?

You seem to imply there is a direct correlation between population and COVID deaths, without taking hundreds of other contributing factors into consideration. Like age demographics, poverty, access to healthcare, population density, tourists, international travelers, and on and on.
I listed the population since Florida is the third most populous state in the nation. I didn’t want small minded people to just look at the total number of deaths when comparing the strict lockdown mandate states to the Covid deaths in Florida...

[jimjamuser]

Florida has been open for a long time. What does the last 7 days have to do with that?!?
FL 35,999 Covid deaths
FL population 21,477,737
NY 52,366 Covid deaths
NY population 19,453,561
PA 26,780 Covid deaths
PA population 12,801,989
MI 19,665 Covid deaths
MI population 9,986,857
Based on the percentage of their population, Florida has done much better that the strict lockdown states.
Sorry just facts...
Pure rationalization to prove one's original opinion or point of view. Some people think of government as the problem when it mostly is the solution. And we are back to the example of seat belts and the NEED for seat belt MANDATES. Proof positive of what I speak!

[jimjamuser]

Exactly what is that list supposed to show? Based on population? Seriously?

You seem to imply there is a direct correlation between population and COVID deaths, without taking hundreds of other contributing factors into consideration. Like age demographics, poverty, access to healthcare, population density, tourists, international travelers, and on and on.
True that!

[Swoop]

I couldn't help but notice that you no longer mentioned Ca. As far as which CV statistics are more important - the expression comes to mind, "what past is past and can NOT be controlled, only the future can." At drivers training school you are taught NOT to spend much time looking in the rearview mirror - you control what's in front of you better.

The recent week's CV cases are leading indicators of how each state will probably do in the future. Judging by the cases in those 5 states, hospitals in Fl. and Mi. had better prepare for a greater influx of patients than NY, Pa., and Ca. It also shows that RIGHT NOW as far as CV goes, it would be better to live in NY and Pa than in Fl. And MUCH better in Ca. The CDC puts out those statistics NOT for historical purposes, but as a warning for FUTURE problem areas or hot spots!
Check my post, I never mentioned CA...
You stated that FL opened too early. If that were the case, since we have be open longer that the vast majority of states, we would have seen serious repercussions, resulting in soaring death numbers. It never happened!
Meanwhile NY, PA & MI closed their states down, shut business, restricted family gatherings, etc. and they still suffered more Covid deaths per capita than FL...
Those are the actual facts...

[jimbomaybe]

There is no natural immunity prior to getting COVID. then the infection rate would be 100% for anyone how contacted the virus ?

[Byte1]

Check my post, I never mentioned CA...
You stated that FL opened too early. If that were the case, since we have be open longer that the vast majority of states, we would have seen serious repercussions, resulting in soaring death numbers. It never happened!
Meanwhile NY, PA & MI closed their states down, shut business, restricted family gatherings, etc. and they still suffered more Covid deaths per capita than FL...
Those are the actual facts...

Good reply! :thumbup:

[Byte1]

Pure rationalization to prove one's original opinion or point of view. Some people think of government as the problem when it mostly is the solution. And we are back to the example of seat belts and the NEED for seat belt MANDATES. Proof positive of what I speak!

Hmm, interesting. And yet, it seems that someone continuously disparages this country in favor of some other countries he has never visited, saying how bad this country is over and over again. Seems like it is the government that controls the perceived image that other countries get of us.
Seat belts should NEVER have been mandated. Americans can make self preservation decisions for themselves without "mandates" from the gov. Most of us do not NEED babysitters.

[Gulfcoast]

Americans have to be able to make decisions for themselves. When the going gets tough we have seen with our own eyes how the government responds. When Covid was at the scariest, government offices and schools shut down leaving private businesses like Publix and Walmart to figure out how to mitigate transmission and serve the public. This is typical government response.

When Congress felt threatened after the Capitol breach, they brought in thousands of National Guard troops, built a fortress around the Capitol and kept themselves safe. In the meantime, average citizens around the country are left to fend for themselves while violent mobs torch and terrorize their cities. And it's still going on. A 9 year old girl in Minneapolis was just shot in the head while she was outside jumping on a trampoline.

We are lucky to live in a state that recognizes the limits of government and values the rights of their citizens to make good decisions for themselves. Law and order is valued here and lawless behavior is not tolerated. We are very lucky.

[jimjamuser]

Americans have to be able to make decisions for themselves. When the going gets tough we have seen with our own eyes how the government responds. When Covid was at the scariest, government offices and schools shut down leaving private businesses like Publix and Walmart to figure out how to mitigate transmission and serve the public. This is typical government response.

When Congress felt threatened after the Capitol breach, they brought in thousands of National Guard troops, built a fortress around the Capitol and kept themselves safe. In the meantime, average citizens around the country are left to fend for themselves while violent mobs torch and terrorize their cities. And it's still going on. A 9 year old girl in Minneapolis was just shot in the head while she was outside jumping on a trampoline.

We are lucky to live in a state that recognizes the limits of government and values the rights of their citizens to make good decisions for themselves. Law and order is valued here and lawless behavior is not tolerated. We are very lucky.
Very confusing post. On one hand, the post is saying that government is ALL bad, but on the other hand, we need more Police (or other government force) to prevent that little girl from being shot. Make up my mind - more government or no government. To prove which is right I put forth the Seatbelt rule, by which government has saved immense lives and kept hospitals from being overcrowded and saved taxpayer $. And note that it was MANDATE..........a MANDATE AND FREE ENTERPRISE AND THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM WAS NOT HURT IN ANY WAY!!!!!!

[jimjamuser]

Americans have to be able to make decisions for themselves. When the going gets tough we have seen with our own eyes how the government responds. When Covid was at the scariest, government offices and schools shut down leaving private businesses like Publix and Walmart to figure out how to mitigate transmission and serve the public. This is typical government response.

When Congress felt threatened after the Capitol breach, they brought in thousands of National Guard troops, built a fortress around the Capitol and kept themselves safe. In the meantime, average citizens around the country are left to fend for themselves while violent mobs torch and terrorize their cities. And it's still going on. A 9 year old girl in Minneapolis was just shot in the head while she was outside jumping on a trampoline.

We are lucky to live in a state that recognizes the limits of government and values the rights of their citizens to make good decisions for themselves. Law and order is valued here and lawless behavior is not tolerated. We are very lucky.
Florida is sort of a laughing stock around the US. Late-night TV talks about the "STUPID Florida man". Florida earned that reputation over years of being strange.

[Gulfcoast]

Very confusing post. On one hand, the post is saying that government is ALL bad, but on the other hand, we need more Police (or other government force) to prevent that little girl from being shot. Make up my mind - more government or no government. To prove which is right I put forth the Seatbelt rule, by which government has saved immense lives and kept hospitals from being overcrowded and saved taxpayer $. And note that it was MANDATE..........a MANDATE AND FREE ENTERPRISE AND THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM WAS NOT HURT IN ANY WAY!!!!!!

I'm sorry to confuse you. The point of government is to work FOR the people, not control the people through excessive mandates.

There is a difference between providing a police force that insures that laws are followed and protects the law abiding citizens in a community and using the police to fine and arrest citizens for daring to open their private businesses or have one too many family members at their Thanksgiving gathering. Government mandates have absolutely hurt this country. You are just lucky to live in a state where sanity has ruled.

Florida got it right. Many states DID NOT.

[coffeebean]

If we already have natural immunity to the virus that the vaccine is meant to protect against, then why get a vaccine when we are already immune?

For the people who have been out there all along during this pandemic, keeping things running and making it possible for the more vulnerable to stay safe, I think it's only fair to let those workers decide for themselves whether or not to get the vaccine.

What about those millions of people who have not developed natural immunity (aka not having had Covid already)? Those are the folks who need to be vaccinated. Why risk having a bad outcome from having the disease? Why risk being asymptomatic and STILL developing unbearable long haul Covid side effects? The idea of SAFE herd immunity is what is needed to fight this invisible enemy.

Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against Small Pox so herd immunity was reached and the disease was eradicated. Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against polio so herd immunity was reached and eradicated the disease. Our society has become a society of _______________ You fill in the blank.

[coffeebean]

A person with natural immunity doesn't need a vaccination to keep the herd safe.

A person with natural immunity does their part to for our country to achieve herd immunity. But......that was a risk to anyone who was willing to contract the disease or was just an unlucky person who contracted the disease or who did not follow guidelines and was unfortunate to have contracted the disease. I'm sure people did not go and and TRY to contract the Covid virus. Well, maybe there were some stupid kids who were having Covid parties to see how many of them would contract the disease. IMHO, that was truly dumb.

Bottom line.....it is much safer to be vaccinated for Covid than to contract the disease.

‘Natural Immunity’ From Covid Is Not Safer Than a Vaccine - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/covid-natural-immunity.html)

[coffeebean]

Agreed. I am not sure how this is related to the economic impact of COVID.

But, I agree with your statement, with the condition that having recovered from one variant of COVID does not necessarily give you immunity to any other - the same is true with Vaccines.

The mRNA vaccines continue to give protection against the variants besides the original strain so I'm not sure what you mean here. This article is dated May 14, 2021............

Vaccines seem to work well against Covid variants. It's also complicated (https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/13/vaccines-work-variants-complicated/)

[Gulfcoast]

What about those millions of people who have not developed natural immunity (aka not having had Covid already)? Those are the folks who need to be vaccinated. Why risk having a bad outcome from having the disease? Why risk being asymptomatic and STILL developing unbearable long haul Covid side effects? The idea of SAFE herd immunity is what is needed to fight this invisible enemy.

Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against Small Pox so herd immunity was reached and the disease was eradicated. Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against polio so herd immunity was reached and eradicated the disease. Our society has become a society of _______________ You fill in the blank.

It's their life and their risk to take. Most people are not going to get that sick even if they do catch Covid. The most vulnerable people have a high vaccination rate.

Children are far more at risk from other viruses and bacteria than they are from Covid. Keeping them isolated and "safe" has weakened their immune systems. Pregnant women who have stayed isolated and safe are not able to pass healthy antibodies onto their newborns.

There is more than one side to the coin. Covid is a big deal in nursing homes but not a big deal in elementary schools. The important thing is that the most vulnerable have access to the vaccine. Let those who are less vulnerable figure out if they need this vaccine or not.

[coffeebean]

A person who has already had the virus is not going to get any benefit, whatsoever, from getting the vaccine. Why should they feel compelled to expose themselves to possible adverse side effects if the vaccination will do them no good anyway?

Donald Trump and Melania had Covid. They were advised by their doctors to get vaccinated. They had their first shots before they left the White House. It is very prudent to get vaccinated even if you have had Covid.......

When Should You Get Vaccinated if You’ve Had COVID-19? – Health Essentials from Cleveland Clinic (https://health.clevelandclinic.org/when-should-you-get-vaccinated-if-youve-had-covid-19/)

[coffeebean]

Yes, it is true. And, FWIW, most of the people who are opting not to get the vaccine have some first hand experience with COVID. They are making an informed decision based on their own personal risk factors.

The vaccines have had enough documented, adverse side effects to question the wisdom of getting the vaccine if you've already had and recovered from the virus.
Please give me an example of one adverse side effect. I DO NOT mean the usual side effects such as fever, body aches and generalized flu like symptoms. Tell me about a side effect that is truly adverse.

[Swoop]

What about those millions of people who have not developed natural immunity (aka not having had Covid already)? Those are the folks who need to be vaccinated. Why risk having a bad outcome from having the disease? Why risk being asymptomatic and STILL developing unbearable long haul Covid side effects? The idea of SAFE herd immunity is what is needed to fight this invisible enemy.

Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against Small Pox so herd immunity was reached and the disease was eradicated. Thank goodness there were enough people willing to be vaccinated against polio so herd immunity was reached and eradicated the disease. Our society has become a society of _______________ You fill in the blank.
If you are not in the vulnerable group, why risk being vaccinated and have a potential long term problem?!?...

[Aloha1]

Over 1/2 MILLION US citizens DIED. That IS significant..... don't you think??????

Did you shed any tears over the 60,000 to 100,000 who die of flu each year? How about the over 55,000 who die in car accidents? Or maybe the hundreds of thousands that die of other causes EACH YEAR?? Stop with the virtue signaling. It isn't working.

[tophcfa]

I would guess the families and friends of the 584,000 dead would disagree.

One can only imagine what that number could have been without all the precautions taken?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Did you shed any tears over the 60,000 to 100,000 who die of flu each year? How about the over 55,000 who die in car accidents? Or maybe the hundreds of thousands that die of other causes EACH YEAR?? Stop with the virtue signaling. It isn't working.

If by flu you are referring to seasonal influenza, that number runs around 30,000, and for me yes, I shed tears over them - they are my fellow Americans, humans, and people with families.

I shed tears over them because so many of them are preventable if Flu vaccinations were mandatory (which would pay for itself in reduced loss of productivity and reduced cost of healthcare).

Even the influenza vaccination is not perfect. And some will die, but I shed tears over any unnecessary death that could have been prevented.

[Aloha1]

If by flu you are referring to seasonal influenza, that number runs around 30,000, and for me yes, I shed tears over them - they are my fellow Americans, humans, and people with families.

I shed tears over them because so many of them are preventable if Flu vaccinations were mandatory (which would pay for itself in reduced loss of productivity and reduced cost of healthcare).

Even the influenza vaccination is not perfect. And some will die, but I shed tears over any unnecessary death that could have been prevented.
Per the CDC:
2016-2017 flu deaths 61,000
2017-2018 flu deaths 95,000
2018-2019 flu deaths 53,000

My point was not directed at you but at the false narrative that only Covid deaths matter.

[Bill14564]

Per the CDC:
2016-2017 flu deaths 61,000
2017-2018 flu deaths 95,000
2018-2019 flu deaths 53,000

My point was not directed at you but at the false narrative that only Covid deaths matter.

Which CDC page was that? (I suspect you were reading the wrong column)

This CDC page (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html) shows the estimates as:
2016-2017: 38,000
2017-2018: 61,000
2018-2019: 34,000


All deaths matter but the number of Covid deaths in the short timeframe and the impact the virus continues to have on the world make Covid a bit different.

When the number of Covid deaths fall to something similar to the flu and when the reaction to a Covid diagnosis is something far less than quarantines and lockdowns then Covid will be just another one of the many killer diseases we wish we could get rid of.

[Gulfcoast]

Please give me an example of one adverse side effect. I DO NOT mean the usual side effects such as fever, body aches and generalized flu like symptoms. Tell me about a side effect that is truly adverse.

Why would a well person want fever, body aches and flu like symptoms?

As far as the side effects go, well the data is still coming in on that. Most side effects from the vaccine are mild but, then again, most cases of Covid-19 are mild for those in the lower risk groups.

One of the most serious side effects of the vaccine that I'm aware of were blood clots (thrombosis) associated with the Johnson and Johnson vaccine. I've heard of other reported side effects up to, and including, sudden unexplained death following the vaccination.

Are fears of the vaccination overblown? Probably. Are fears of Covid-19 overblown for most people? Probably.

it is not the open/shut case that you might think that it is.

[Gulfcoast]

Did you shed any tears over the 60,000 to 100,000 who die of flu each year? How about the over 55,000 who die in car accidents? Or maybe the hundreds of thousands that die of other causes EACH YEAR?? Stop with the virtue signaling. It isn't working.

The flu has apparently been eradicated off of the planet. Some car accident victims apparently wound up as Covid statistics. So maybe car accident deaths are down, too?

It's all a confusing whirlwind.

[jimjamuser]

The mRNA vaccines continue to give protection against the variants besides the original strain so I'm not sure what you mean here. This article is dated May 14, 2021............

Vaccines seem to work well against Covid variants. It's also complicated (https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/13/vaccines-work-variants-complicated/)
Doctors in England are worried about the S. African and Indian variants that are coming into England. They are thinking that they may have to go back to some form of quarantine.

[jimjamuser]

It's their life and their risk to take. Most people are not going to get that sick even if they do catch Covid. The most vulnerable people have a high vaccination rate.

Children are far more at risk from other viruses and bacteria than they are from Covid. Keeping them isolated and "safe" has weakened their immune systems. Pregnant women who have stayed isolated and safe are not able to pass healthy antibodies onto their newborns.

There is more than one side to the coin. Covid is a big deal in nursing homes but not a big deal in elementary schools. The important thing is that the most vulnerable have access to the vaccine. Let those who are less vulnerable figure out if they need this vaccine or not.
The British variant of CV that is gaining in the US is sickening and killing young children. And I believe that is NOT true about pregnant women.

[jimjamuser]

It's their life and their risk to take. Most people are not going to get that sick even if they do catch Covid. The most vulnerable people have a high vaccination rate.

Children are far more at risk from other viruses and bacteria than they are from Covid. Keeping them isolated and "safe" has weakened their immune systems. Pregnant women who have stayed isolated and safe are not able to pass healthy antibodies onto their newborns.

There is more than one side to the coin. Covid is a big deal in nursing homes but not a big deal in elementary schools. The important thing is that the most vulnerable have access to the vaccine. Let those who are less vulnerable figure out if they need this vaccine or not.
Around 600,000 US citizens have died from CV. Many others had painful hospital stays. Many others will have LONG HAUL CV symptoms - perhaps for the rest of their lives - no one knows for sure. What if your 5-year-old child had symptoms for the rest of their lives? NOT a good situation. Get a high enough % (80%) of people vaccinated to NOT take that chance and stamp out CV forever! Your country depends on you!

[stanley]

Please give me an example of one adverse side effect. I DO NOT mean the usual side effects such as fever, body aches and generalized flu like symptoms. Tell me about a side effect that is truly adverse.


Eric Clapton hits out at 'propaganda' over vaccine safety | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9583109/Eric-Clapton-hits-propaganda-vaccine-safety.html)

[jimjamuser]

Donald Trump and Melania had Covid. They were advised by their doctors to get vaccinated. They had their first shots before they left the White House. It is very prudent to get vaccinated even if you have had Covid.......

When Should You Get Vaccinated if You’ve Had COVID-19? – Health Essentials from Cleveland Clinic (https://health.clevelandclinic.org/when-should-you-get-vaccinated-if-youve-had-covid-19/)
Yes, good post!

[jimjamuser]

If you are not in the vulnerable group, why risk being vaccinated and have a potential long term problem?!?...
Getting DEAD from CV IS a "long-term problem". And NOT a fake problem like the made-up problems about the vaccines!

[jimjamuser]

Did you shed any tears over the 60,000 to 100,000 who die of flu each year? How about the over 55,000 who die in car accidents? Or maybe the hundreds of thousands that die of other causes EACH YEAR?? Stop with the virtue signaling. It isn't working.
I am medical health care "signaling.

[jimjamuser]

Why would a well person want fever, body aches and flu like symptoms?

As far as the side effects go, well the data is still coming in on that. Most side effects from the vaccine are mild but, then again, most cases of Covid-19 are mild for those in the lower risk groups.

One of the most serious side effects of the vaccine that I'm aware of were blood clots (thrombosis) associated with the Johnson and Johnson vaccine. I've heard of other reported side effects up to, and including, sudden unexplained death following the vaccination.

Are fears of the vaccination overblown? Probably. Are fears of Covid-19 overblown for most people? Probably.

it is not the open/shut case that you might think that it is.
The J & J vaccine was found to be safe!

[jimjamuser]

The flu has apparently been eradicated off of the planet. Some car accident victims apparently wound up as Covid statistics. So maybe car accident deaths are down, too?

It's all a confusing whirlwind.
Car accidents WERE down due to the quarantine.

[lkagele]

The British variant of CV that is gaining in the US is sickening and killing young children. And I believe that is NOT true about pregnant women.

Reference please. I did a search and couldn't find anything about variants killing children.

[jimjamuser]

Eric Clapton hits out at 'propaganda' over vaccine safety | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9583109/Eric-Clapton-hits-propaganda-vaccine-safety.html)
ONE person.....statistically that is an N of 1..........basically meaningless.

[jimjamuser]

Reference please. I did a search and couldn't find anything about variants killing children.
Get real! It took me 30 sec to find these
1) NY Times....... CV killing young children in Brazil
2) Reuters........Singapore warns children susceptible to virus variants
3) Economic Times.........Why is CV killing so many children in Brazil?
4) Web.MD.com..........Children develop long haul CV problems - data from the UK
And there were several others!!!!!!!!! Took me much longer to type this than to find it.
Hope that made you happy!

[GrumpyOldMan]

Per the CDC:
2016-2017 flu deaths 61,000
2017-2018 flu deaths 95,000
2018-2019 flu deaths 53,000

My point was not directed at you but at the false narrative that only Covid deaths matter.

Please provide a link, because those do not match the numbers I find at the CDC.

[Gulfcoast]

Car accidents WERE down due to the quarantine.

I know. I was attempting to use a little humorous bad math to demonstrate how preposterous some of the numbers are out there.

Of course, the flu did not just miraculously vanish and car accidents did decline because people were driving less. Yet, I have still heard tales about car accident victims' deaths being labeled as Covid related. I've heard of a person, who died from sepsis stemming from an untreated urinary tract infection, have their death labeled Covid.

The CDC has confirmed that the number of deaths caused by Covid alone are pretty low. Most of the deaths had significant other causes associated with them.

That explains why the schools that have reopened along with service industry and healthcare workers haven't been absolutely decimated by the virus. In fact, they've fared pretty darned well.

[Cobullymom]

Members of my household have been going to their service industry jobs and dealing with the public face to face throughout this pandemic. Even when dentists and primary care physicians had closed their offices and weren't seeing patients, there were workers heading to their jobs at grocery stores, pharmacies, food service, gasoline stations - day in, day out.

That has helped to shape my perspective as to the risks of this virus. When you live with the risk daily, you get a pretty good idea how bad (or not so bad) things really are, at least in terms of yourself and your own family.

I'm the 55 year old mom who had healthy, active teens going to their jobs and schools plus activities. And, I was also the whippersnapper who was out running errands for her elderly mom. I haven't had the luxury of "staying safe" but thankfully we did manage to get through the better part of a year without a vaccine.

Now that the cases are falling, vulnerable people have gotten vaccinated and the actual risks of catching Covid have been greatly reduced we are now supposed to run out and get vaccinated even though we have likely already had the virus, albeit mild cases of it?

Why?
Thank you, exactly my thoughts

[stanley]

ONE person.....statistically that is an N of 1..........basically meaningless.

Again.....caffeine lady asked for just 1, guess you didn't see that

Please give me an example of one adverse side effect. I DO NOT mean the usual side effects such as fever, body aches and generalized flu like symptoms. Tell me about a side effect that is truly adverse.

And I gave "her" this

Eric Clapton hits out at 'propaganda' over vaccine safety | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9583109/Eric-Clapton-hits-propaganda-vaccine-safety.html)

No need for your response

[coffeebean]

Why would a well person want fever, body aches and flu like symptoms?

As far as the side effects go, well the data is still coming in on that. Most side effects from the vaccine are mild but, then again, most cases of Covid-19 are mild for those in the lower risk groups.

One of the most serious side effects of the vaccine that I'm aware of were blood clots (thrombosis) associated with the Johnson and Johnson vaccine. I've heard of other reported side effects up to, and including, sudden unexplained death following the vaccination.

Are fears of the vaccination overblown? Probably. Are fears of Covid-19 overblown for most people? Probably.

it is not the open/shut case that you might think that it is.

I was aware that young people were much more apt to develop the flu like symptoms after the second shot of the mRNA vaccines. I was actually hoping I would have a reaction which would signal to me that my immune system is still quite robust for an old broad. My immune system did not fail me. I know now that my immune system has a lot of life left. I welcomed those symptoms after my 2nd Moderna shot. After a miserable 10 1/2 hours, I was good to go.

It is unfortunate that J&J vaccine has had some problems but I'm more concerned for the mRNA vaccines. My husband and my entire family has received the Moderna vaccine so that is why I am more concerned with mRNA vaccines. With all the reading I have done about the mRNA vaccines, there has been no evidence those vaccines have been the direct cause of death yet.

[coffeebean]

Doctors in England are worried about the S. African and Indian variants that are coming into England. They are thinking that they may have to go back to some form of quarantine.

Which vaccine is England using to vaccinate their population? Is it the AZ vaccine? I don't follow what is happening with any vaccines with the exception of the mRNA vaccines. So far, the mRNA vaccines seem to be extremely safe and effective against the variants.

[coffeebean]

Eric Clapton hits out at 'propaganda' over vaccine safety | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9583109/Eric-Clapton-hits-propaganda-vaccine-safety.html)

Maybe I should have specified I'm only following and interested in mRNA vaccines. Eric Clapton did not have mRNA vaccine. Amazing that Clapton still had the second shot after suffering a severe problematic reaction after his first shot. Go figure!

[coffeebean]

~~~

[Aloha1]

Which CDC page was that? (I suspect you were reading the wrong column)

This CDC page (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html) shows the estimates as:
2016-2017: 38,000
2017-2018: 61,000
2018-2019: 34,000


All deaths matter but the number of Covid deaths in the short timeframe and the impact the virus continues to have on the world make Covid a bit different.

When the number of Covid deaths fall to something similar to the flu and when the reaction to a Covid diagnosis is something far less than quarantines and lockdowns then Covid will be just another one of the many killer diseases we wish we could get rid of.

Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html)

You are only posting the estimate not the range.

[Bill14564]

Past Seasons Estimated Influenza Disease Burden | CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html)

You are only posting the estimate not the range.

And you only posted the high end of the range. The table below showing typically fewer than 30,000 flu deaths would be just as accurate:

2016-2017: 29,000
2017-2018: 46,000
2018-2019: 26,000

[Joe V.]

Maybe I should have specified I'm only following and interested in mRNA vaccines. Eric Clapton did not have mRNA vaccine. Amazing that Clapton still had the second shot after suffering a severe problematic reaction after his first shot. Go figure!


Maybe, but, ah, well ..........., humana, humana, humana

[Aloha1]

And you only posted the high end of the range. The table below showing typically fewer than 30,000 flu deaths would be just as accurate:

2016-2017: 29,000
2017-2018: 46,000
2018-2019: 26,000

I disagree. The CDC numbers are their best guess but they acknowledge they could be higher or lower, hence the range. Bottom line, I guess, is we have no way of knowing EXACTLY how many have died from the flu over the last few years, but we are "absolutely certain" how many have died from Covid. Food for thought.

[Bill14564]

I disagree. The CDC numbers are their best guess but they acknowledge they could be higher or lower, hence the range. Bottom line, I guess, is we have no way of knowing EXACTLY how many have died from the flu over the last few years, but we are "absolutely certain" how many have died from Covid. Food for thought.

"We" aren't "absolutely certain" but I believe the CDC numbers that show more than 500,000 excess deaths in 2020. Lacking any other reasonable explanation, these excess deaths must be due to Covid. While the number of flu deaths in 2018 was in the range 46,000 to 95,000, there were ten times as many Covid-related deaths in 2020.

All deaths matter and it would be nice to reduce the number of any deaths but a new condition that causes one half million deaths in a single year (and additional deaths into the next) is worth special attention.

[Aloha1]

"We" aren't "absolutely certain" but I believe the CDC numbers that show more than 500,000 excess deaths in 2020. Lacking any other reasonable explanation, these excess deaths must be due to Covid. While the number of flu deaths in 2018 was in the range 46,000 to 95,000, there were ten times as many Covid-related deaths in 2020.

All deaths matter and it would be nice to reduce the number of any deaths but a new condition that causes one half million deaths in a single year (and additional deaths into the next) is worth special attention.

I understand your perspective but I won't rehash all the other variables in reporting such as how deaths were coded, why there were few flu or pneumonia deaths recorded, etc. People died, that is true. Some even from Covid. But we may never know exactly how many.

[jimjamuser]

I know. I was attempting to use a little humorous bad math to demonstrate how preposterous some of the numbers are out there.

Of course, the flu did not just miraculously vanish and car accidents did decline because people were driving less. Yet, I have still heard tales about car accident victims' deaths being labeled as Covid related. I've heard of a person, who died from sepsis stemming from an untreated urinary tract infection, have their death labeled Covid.

The CDC has confirmed that the number of deaths caused by Covid alone are pretty low. Most of the deaths had significant other causes associated with them.

That explains why the schools that have reopened along with service industry and healthcare workers haven't been absolutely decimated by the virus. In fact, they've fared pretty darned well.
I seem to remember lots of health care workers dying in NYC early in the Pandemic.

[jimjamuser]

Which vaccine is England using to vaccinate their population? Is it the AZ vaccine? I don't follow what is happening with any vaccines with the exception of the mRNA vaccines. So far, the mRNA vaccines seem to be extremely safe and effective against the variants.
Not sure which vaccine England is using? But the CV in Africa and Brazil looks different under a microscope. It has been detected in England and they are having 2nd thoughts about opening up their society.

[coffeebean]

I understand your perspective but I won't rehash all the other variables in reporting such as how deaths were coded, why there were few flu or pneumonia deaths recorded, etc. People died, that is true. Some even from Covid. But we may never know exactly how many.

How about counting the amount of refrigerated trucks that were used as makeshift morgues? How about counting the makeshift hospital units that were set up in public ramp garages for the excessive amount of patients? How about counting all those patients that were turned away from hospitals because they were overwhelmed with excess patients? How about those EMTs that had to make decisions of who is transported to hospitals and who was left to die at home? How about all those exhausted health care workers pleading with America to wear masks and social distance? Many of them suffer from PTSD today.

I could go on an on and on and on. Anyone who is not aware of these horrendous scenarios was just not watching, reading and listening to news sources that were reporting what was happening in our country. No sugar coating was done. I saw with my own eyes those scenarios. This was our America??

[stanley]

I could go on an on and on and on. Anyone who is not aware of these horrendous scenarios was just not watching, reading and listening to news sources that were reporting what was happening in our country. No sugar coating was done. I saw with my own eyes those scenarios. This was our America??

Ahhhh......that's the key......the media

[Swoop]

How about counting the amount of refrigerated trucks that were used as makeshift morgues? How about counting the makeshift hospital units that were set up in public ramp garages for the excessive amount of patients? How about counting all those patients that were turned away from hospitals because they were overwhelmed with excess patients? How about those EMTs that had to make decisions of who is transported to hospitals and who was left to die at home? How about all those exhausted health care workers pleading with America to wear masks and social distance? Many of them suffer from PTSD today.

I could go on an on and on and on. Anyone who is not aware of these horrendous scenarios was just not watching, reading and listening to news sources that were reporting what was happening in our country. No sugar coating was done. I saw with my own eyes those scenarios. This was our America??
The problem was you were watching the news. You were shown what they wanted you to see. Fear sells...

[coffeebean]

Ahhhh......that's the key.......media

How else would I have seen with my own two eyes what was going on in those decimated cities? I watched it unfold on my television and it was not a made for TV movie. It was real life and I was truly disheartened to know that was happening in our country. I never thought I would see anything like that in our lifetime in American cities.

[coffeebean]

The problem was you were watching the news. You were shown what they wanted you to see. Fear sells...

But, it happened. Am I supposed to not believe what is shown on the news source that I watch? As I said already, those scenes were not from a TV movie, they were real life happenings. So, I got to see the devastation and those who watched other news sources were not treated to those horrendous scenes. They censored what was happening. Do you condone that? I surely don't.

[stanley]

But, it happened. Am I supposed to not believe what is shown on the news source that I watch? As I said already, those scenes were not from a TV movie, they were real life happenings. So, I got to see the devastation and those who watched other news sources were not treated to those horrendous scenes. They censored what was happening. Do you condone that? I surely don't.

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see."

You trust what you see and hear where the MSM is concerned, fine. Not many of "us" do
They got you.

[Swoop]

But, it happened. Am I supposed to not believe what is shown on the news source that I watch? As I said already, those scenes were not from a TV movie, they were real life happenings. So, I got to see the devastation and those who watched other news sources were not treated to those horrendous scenes. They censored what was happening. Do you condone that? I surely don't.

Like the NY governor claiming he was out of ventilators and doctors would have to choose which patients would be allowed access to ventilators to survive. As it turns out they didn’t even use their own stockpile. Or the overrun hospitals, where the Javits Center was turned into a temporary hospital, that saw almost no patients. Or the need for the military hospital ship, that sailed away virtually unused. The bodies that had to be stored in refrigerated trucks was because the governor shut down funeral homes. Try that even without Covid and watch the bodies stack up. I can go on, but it’s not worth it. Just keep believing everything the national news media is selling...

[stanley]

Like the NY governor claiming he was out of ventilators and doctors would have to choose which patients would be allowed access to ventilators to survive. As it turns out they didn’t even use their own stockpile. Or the overrun hospitals, where the Javits Center was turned into a temporary hospital, that saw almost no patients. Or the need for the military hospital ship, that sailed away virtually unused. The bodies that had to be stored in refrigerated trucks was because the governor shut down funeral homes. Try that even without Covid and watch the bodies stack up. I can go on, but it’s not worth it. Just keep believing everything the national news media is selling...

Yeah there's that but..........


.

..

[coffeebean]

"Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see."

You trust what you see and hear where the MSM is concerned, fine. Not many of "us" do
They got you.

Do you mean to tell me that those refrigerated trucks that were lined up actually had frozen beef inside? Is that what you believe? Those exhausted health care workers were actors? Is that what you believe? Those makeshift hospital units in parking garages were really camp grounds for kids? Is that what you believe?

[stanley]

Do you mean to tell me that those refrigerated trucks that were lined up actually had frozen beef inside? Is that what you believe? Those exhausted health care workers were actors? Is that what you believe? Those makeshift hospital units in parking garages were really camp grounds for kids? Is that what you believe?

No , not frozen beef.....just cold air. Believe what you want.

[coffeebean]

Like the NY governor claiming he was out of ventilators and doctors would have to choose which patients would be allowed access to ventilators to survive. As it turns out they didn’t even use their own stockpile. Or the overrun hospitals, where the Javits Center was turned into a temporary hospital, that saw almost no patients. Or the need for the military hospital ship, that sailed away virtually unused. The bodies that had to be stored in refrigerated trucks was because the governor shut down funeral homes. Try that even without Covid and watch the bodies stack up. I can go on, but it’s not worth it. Just keep believing everything the national news media is selling...

Cuomo shut down visitation in funeral homes, not the services to tend to the dead. Where in the world did you hear that Cuomo did not allow that very essential service to continue to serve their communities? The Javitz Center was probably not needed because Cuomo sent all those Covid positive nursing home patients back to their nursing homes. That was not a smart move on his part and I will always believe Cuomo was the cause of needless deaths. I do know the hospital ship was underutilized because of government mismanagement.

Here is an article about funeral homes in NY......
No funeral ceremonies in NY during coronavirus shutdown; burials without families - syracuse.com (https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/03/no-funeral-ceremonies-in-ny-during-coronavirus-shutdown-burials-without-families.html)

[coffeebean]

No , not frozen beef.....just cold air. Believe what you want.

Seriously? You believe that? Did you not see dead bodies being loaded onto to those trucks? I did. Oh, maybe those were actors too; playing dead in shrouds.

[stanley]

Seriously? You believe that? Did you not see dead bodies being loaded onto to those trucks? I did. Oh, maybe those were actors too; playing dead in shrouds.

Where did "you" see this?

[coffeebean]

Where did "you" see this?

Probably NBC nightly news with Lester Holt or could have been Nora on CBS. Or maybe it was CNN. I don't recall which one it was months ago when the sh!t had hit the fan with Covid. I was so saddened to see that.

[stanley]

Probably NBC nightly news with Lester Holt or could have been Nora on CBS. Or maybe it was CNN. I don't recall which one it was months ago when the sh!t had hit the fan with Covid. I was so saddened to see that.

MSM....,doom and gloom. Everyone weighs their decisions and thoughts on what they see and hear.......
we see an hear different things

[coffeebean]

MSM....,doom and gloom. Everyone weighs their decisions and thoughts on what they see and hear.......
we see an hear different things

I surely agree with you about that.

[Swoop]

Cuomo shut down visitation in funeral homes, not the services to tend to the dead. Where in the world did you hear that Cuomo did not allow that very essential service to continue to serve their communities? The Javitz Center was probably not needed because Cuomo sent all those Covid positive nursing home patients back to their nursing homes. That was not a smart move on his part and I will always believe Cuomo was the cause of needless deaths. I do know the hospital ship was underutilized because of government mismanagement.

Here is an article about funeral homes in NY......
No funeral ceremonies in NY during coronavirus shutdown; burials without families - syracuse.com (https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/03/no-funeral-ceremonies-in-ny-during-coronavirus-shutdown-burials-without-families.html)
He allowed the bodies to be stored to give families the time to make decisions on what they wanted to do since he did not allow people to gather for funerals. Many wanted to wait to bury family members until they could be present. Did you know that there are 750 bodies that have been stored in those refrigerator trucks for over a year?!? Since May of 2020. Do you think there is still enough ongoing Covid deaths to warrant that?!? Or maybe just mismanagement by the city of NY...

[coffeebean]

He allowed the bodies to be stored to give families the time to make decisions on what they wanted to do since he did not allow people to gather for funerals. Many wanted to wait to bury family members until they could be present. Did you know that there are 750 bodies that have been stored in those refrigerator trucks for over a year?!? Since May of 2020. Do you think there is still enough ongoing Covid deaths to warrant that?!? Or maybe just mismanagement by the city of NY...

We know the death rate now is not nearly what it was during the peak in NY. I have not heard of the 750 bodies still stored in those trucks. Mismanagement is my best guess. Sad, sad situation for sure.