Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

[DeanFL]

.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>

[Tmarkwald]

sick, really sick

[Stu from NYC]

Wonder why feminists are so quiet on this issue?

When womens sports are taken over by transgenders perhaps they will wake up

[golfing eagles]

LPGA = Lost Previous Gender Assignment

Alternatively, golf's freak show.

[Chi-Town]

Nothing new.



Decades later, Renee Richards' breakthrough is as important as ever | TENNIS.com - Live Scores, News, Player Rankings (https://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2021/03/40-years-later-renee-richards-breakthrough-important-ever/68064/)

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

[DeanFL]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

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are you serious re this or is this an attempt for a "laugh a day"?
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[golfing eagles]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

In other words, spread the transgenders out evenly to create a level playing field???? I don't think so.

[Tmarkwald]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

and now we have the mentally confused endorsing 63, now 81 genders.

https://apath.org/63-genders/

[tuccillo]

The post is about professional golf. With a few exceptions, such as the Ryder Cup and Solheim Cup, professional golf is not a team sport. Try to keep up.

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

[PugMom]

even bruce jenner says this is bogus. it's none of my business which lifestyle someone chooses, but jeez,...how could this even be allowed in the world of sports?:shocked:

[Bill14564]

you support this crap?

Biological Male Wins Women’s Cycling World Championship (https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/10/21/biological-male-wins-womens-cycling-world-championship/)

TOTV is no place for this

I don't support discrimination, insults, and threats of physical harm.

I also dislike simplistic solutions posed for complex situations.

[golfing eagles]

I don't support discrimination, insults, and threats of physical harm.

I also dislike simplistic solutions posed for complex situations.

Actually it is pretty simple

You're born male or female and that's the hand you are dealt. There shouldn't be any "do-overs"

And I'm sure most of us would discriminate against and insult Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders and ISIS terrorists. And it is even worse when the taxpayer foots the bill for gender reassignment surgery on inmates and military personal.

[Tmarkwald]

I don't support discrimination, insults, and threats of physical harm.



I don't either. I live with everyone. But discrimination in this case is required. Has to be.

But men competing in a physical sport against women is simply wrong.

Even if he is wearing a dress.

As far as threats of physical harm?

Do you think it is OK for a man to follow your little girl into the ladies room?

[Villageswimmer]

Very sad situation for young women who have spent their lives working to excel in their sport. So unfair to them.

[Chi-Town]

Renee Richard's played in the U.S.Open over 40 years ago. There were the same comments then. How is the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) doing today? No comments about tennis not being golf please.

[tophcfa]

Gender should not be determined by what’s between the ears, but rather by what’s between ones legs when they were born. This freak should not be allowed to compete against biological women.

[Bill14564]

I don't either. I live with everyone. But discrimination in this case is required. Has to be.

But men competing in a physical sport against women is simply wrong.

Even if he is wearing a dress.

As far as threats of physical harm?

Do you think it is OK for a man to follow your little girl into the ladies room?

I disagree with you.

It simply is not that simple.

We have had different life experiences and it shows.

[Boomer]

Actually it is pretty simple

You're born male or female and that's the hand you are dealt. There shouldn't be any "do-overs"

And I'm sure most of us would discriminate against and insult Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders and ISIS terrorists. The "people" are even bigger freaks. And it is even worse when the taxpayer foots the bill for gender reassignment surgery on inmates and military personal.


golfing eagles,

Please clarify your statement for me -- and I am serious -- because I truly hope I am reading your post wrong. . .

While you are certainly branching out from the subject of sports competition and making your hatred of transgender human beings quite clear, did you actually just say that transgender people (and I did not miss your need to be sarcastic by enclosing the word 'people' in quotation marks) are worse than Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders, and ISIS terrorists?

Boomer

[Tmarkwald]

I don't either. I live with everyone. But discrimination in this case is required. Has to be.

But men competing in a physical sport against women is simply wrong.

Even if he is wearing a dress.

As far as threats of physical harm?

Do you think it is OK for a man to follow your little girl into the ladies room?




I disagree with you.


OK, then substantiate what you are disagreeing with?

Men competing physically against women?

or

Men using the ladies' room?

And please provide reasoning behind this.

It has zero to do with LGBTQ and everything to do with physical biological gender.

We're not discussing whether someone identifies as a gender different from their biological plumbing....,but fairness in sports.

[Tmarkwald]

golfing eagles,

Please clarify your statement for me -- and I am serious -- because I truly hope I am reading your post wrong. . .

While you are certainly branching out from the subject of sports competition and making your hatred of transgender human beings quite clear, did you actually just say that transgender people (and I did not miss your need to be sarcastic by enclosing the word 'people' in quotation marks) are worse than Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders, and ISIS terrorists?

Boomer

I get exactly where he is coming from. Discrimination. He is classifying those 'people' as being in an entire different universe as the rest of us. And, yeah, we hate them.. And putting quotations around 'people' is simply dehumanizing them as people who commit those atrocities don't deserve the title of 'human'....

But....

There's no hatred for trans people in his statement, simply a statement that you are born biologically as either F or M. And no amount of surgery or drugs can ever change that. You are forever F or M. No matter what you get cut off or put on, it does not matter. There is no do-over.

[Ben Franklin]

I don't know if people still want females to be thought of as the weaker sex, but I wouldn't want to run into any of these ladies.

https://www.muscleandfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Modern-Day-Muscular-Women-Bodybuilders-Posing-On-Stage-At-A-Women-Bodybuilding-Competition.jpg?w=1000&quality=86&strip=all

[Tmarkwald]

I don't know if people still want females to be thought of as the weaker sex, but I wouldn't want to run into any of these ladies.

https://www.muscleandfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Modern-Day-Muscular-Women-Bodybuilders-Posing-On-Stage-At-A-Women-Bodybuilding-Competition.jpg?w=1000&quality=86&strip=all


I don't even have to hit the link.

Anybody or anything that injects that much anabolic steroids into their system is nuts..

Anabolic steroids are synthetic, or human-made, variations of the male sex hormone testosterone. The proper term for these compounds is anabolic-androgenic steroids. "Anabolic" refers to muscle building, and "androgenic" refers to increased male sex characteristics.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Actually it is pretty simple

You're born male or female and that's the hand you are dealt. There shouldn't be any "do-overs"

And I'm sure most of us would discriminate against and insult Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders and ISIS terrorists. The "people" are even bigger freaks. And it is even worse when the taxpayer foots the bill for gender reassignment surgery on inmates and military personal.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.

[golfing eagles]

golfing eagles,

Please clarify your statement for me -- and I am serious -- because I truly hope I am reading your post wrong. . .

While you are certainly branching out from the subject of sports competition and making your hatred of transgender human beings quite clear, did you actually just say that transgender people (and I did not miss your need to be sarcastic by enclosing the word 'people' in quotation marks) are worse than Nazi war criminals, KKK leaders, and ISIS terrorists?

Boomer

No, not at all---and if it sounded that way I apologize. I was trying to imply that there are certain groups that MAY deserve insults.
And I don't "hate" transgender people, I just disagree with the whole concept
And I disagree even more if I am footing the bill

[Ben Franklin]

I don't even have to hit the link.

Anybody or anything that injects that much anabolic steroids into their system is nuts..

Anabolic steroids are synthetic, or human-made, variations of the male sex hormone testosterone. The proper term for these compounds is anabolic-androgenic steroids. "Anabolic" refers to muscle building, and "androgenic" refers to increased male sex characteristics.

Chill. It was a joke. I would never take anabolic steroids. I like my frumpy body ;-). I would never tell a woman she is the weaker sex, as their bodies create babies.

[PugMom]

Very sad situation for young women who have spent their lives working to excel in their sport. So unfair to them.

:boom: Bingo~!

[golfing eagles]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Yes, there are cases of ambiguous genitalia. And for them, corrective surgery to bring their phenotype into agreement with their genotype is wonderful. Unfortunately, many are scarred by the junior high locker room. This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT situation from a conscious choice to change genders.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Hermaphroditism is rare but also occurs. Same correction as above

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

That would be something that I am not familiar with. There are cases of testicular feminization syndrome, but that's not really the same thing


Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

Those anomalies, such as Kleinfelter"s and Turner's syndrome, do not define "sexual orientation". They are genetic "mutations" that are usually fatal during the first trimester, but occasionally will escape nature's failsafe system and be born. Again, it has nothing to do with gender reassignment.

[Tmarkwald]

Chill. It was a joke. I would never take anabolic steroids. I like my frumpy body ;-). I would never tell a woman she is the weaker sex, as their bodies create babies.

I know it was.. But she has to shave. Shave EVERYWHERE!

[Stu from NYC]

I know it was.. But she has to shave. Shave EVERYWHERE!

Wow that is one sexy _____. No idea how to complete the sentence

[bobdeb]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

We could all use the same restrooms. Oh, wait, we already can do that.

How about the same locker room and showers? What could go wrong there?

Political correctness is amusing at times.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Yes, there are cases of ambiguous genitalia. And for them, corrective surgery to bring their phenotype into agreement with their genotype is wonderful. Unfortunately, many are scarred by the junior high locker room. This is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT situation from a conscious choice to change genders.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Hermaphroditism is rare but also occurs. Same correction as above

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

That would be something that I am not familiar with. There are cases of testicular feminization syndrome, but that's not really the same thing


Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

Those anomalies, such as Kleinfelter"s and Turner's syndrome, do not define "sexual orientation". They are genetic "mutations" that are usually fatal during the first trimester, but occasionally will escape nature's failsafe system and be born. Again, it has nothing to do with gender reassignment.

I completely disagree with you, and there is NO clear definition of "sexual orientation".

But, let's put that aside, what happened to "freedom". Why is it is worth fighting for the right to choose if only those things a particular person agrees with are covered.

So what if someone chooses to change the physical sex? Where do people get the right to pile hate and scorn onto someone because of their choice?

I could say that someones free choice of which person they want to have as president has a lot more impact on my life than what sex a person decides they identify as. And yet, if I come on here and describe that choice of presidents as evil or sick or discussing, I can be banned, but there is NOTHING wrong with attacking a person for their sexual choice.

Disgusting hypocrisy.

I think I need a break for this form.

[Byte1]

If they'd just get rid of mens' and womens' clubs entirely, I think it'd work out just fine. Make them all mixed. Heck you could even include a requirement that each team have at least one transgender of each gender in order to compete on the national level.

Why?

[Two Bills]

I have no problem with blokes cutting off their wedding tackle and calling themselves Karen or whatever.
But.
If I were a ladies Pro Golfer I would raise holy heck to get them banned from competing in womens events.
It is not fair competition however you dress the situation (or him) up!
JMHO.

[Byte1]

Wonder why feminists are so quiet on this issue?

When womens sports are taken over by transgenders perhaps they will wake up

You reap what you sow. If women protested this issue, then there would be a stop to it immediately. If they sit back and allow it, then they get treated just like they did before they won the right to vote.
I do not hate transgenders, gays, etc. I just do not condone it. I believe that what one is, they were born with, not able to change what GOD made them. What a person does in private (relationship) is their business and I just don't care. But, I do not believe that a male should be able to enter a restroom with a female child or adult. I do not believe in transgenders in sports unless the sport is classed as open gender, male and female. But, that is just my opinion. What entertainment does to entertain is up to them and if they start losing support, then I guess they will change. I don't have to watch a sport or any other type of entertainment if I disapprove of something. I do not watch football anymore because of the athletes kneeling during the National Anthem. That is my prerogative. And the interesting point is that now I no longer miss those sports.
Someone said it is not fair that a male is allowed to play in a sport that has been dedicated to females. It's been going on the other way also. Females have attempted to enter male sports such as football, etc. What is fair? I would have to say that it is not fair in public school that males can enter female sports. Developing girls should be able to compete on equal terms with other girls while they are developing in public school. Otherwise, I really don't care. Sports is just entertainment and if they want to add a new element to it, I guess they will see how the public accepts it or not.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

In other words, spread the freaks out evenly to create a level playing field???? I don't think so.

"Freaks"? GE, aren't you a medical doctor?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I completely disagree with you, and there is NO clear definition of "sexual orientation".

But, let's put that aside, what happened to "freedom". Why is it is worth fighting for the right to choose if only those things a particular person agrees with are covered.

So what if someone chooses to change the physical sex? Where do people get the right to pile hate and scorn onto someone because of their choice?

I could say that someones free choice of which person they want to have as president has a lot more impact on my life than what sex a person decides they identify as. And yet, if I come on here and describe that choice of presidents as evil or sick or discussing, I can be banned, but there is NOTHING wrong with attacking a person for their sexual choice.

Disgusting hypocrisy.

I think I need a break for this form.

My hat's off to you, Grumpy. Whatever happened to the political philosophy that's so prevalent in the Villages - to live and let live, and be free to be yourself without interference?

[bobdeb]

If you consider the history of road races, gender, followed by age, has been the standard for classifications. Initially, there were males only races (e.g. Boston Marathon back when) until women rightfully protested and broke through. However they quickly realized they couldn't compete on an equal standing with men so a female classification was created. Sound fair?

With few exceptions, such as charity fund raisers, you must first quality in a previous marathon, within a certain time period, before being accepted into Boston. However, qualifying times for women were lower than for men in the same age group. They didn't have to run as fast to quality. Sound fair?

In my experience there were only a very few 'male only' races. This has completely changed as women could eventually get accepted but on different terms. For example there were races where you had to consume food and beverages at certain checkpoints without throwing up and being disqualified. Dead serious. Women couldn't consume as much as men so they had other limitations. Sound fair?

However, no male dare enter women's only races. That was their bastion only. It was ok for women to enter men's races, with considerations, but not men into women's. Sound fair?

My point being that women are going to find a way to protect their standing against any 'unfairness' and work to gain any handicap over those deemed physically superior. They are legion in this cause. Especially if there are records to be set, trophy and prize money to be won and scholarships at stake.

They will rise against any person they feel has an advantage. There will be some kind of handicap adopted to ensure they can compete on an even field against any class of individual.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I get exactly where he is coming from. Discrimination. He is classifying those 'people' as being in an entire different universe as the rest of us. And, yeah, we hate them.. And putting quotations around 'people' is simply dehumanizing them as people who commit those atrocities don't deserve the title of 'human'....

Well it's good to know where you stand. You do realize that there may be transgenders in the Villages or elsewhere reading this? And that doesn't matter?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

My hat's off to you, Grumpy. Whatever happened to the political philosophy that's so prevalent in the Villages - to live and let live, and be free to be yourself without interference?

It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.

[bobdeb]

It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.

Oh my heavens. I'm in agreement with OrangeBlossomBaby...

Does this apply universally?

I need to go and lie down...

[Byte1]

"Freaks"? GE, aren't you a medical doctor?

Freak: "a thing, person, animal, or event that is extremely unusual or unlikely, and not like any other of its type.."

Did he not use the term appropriately? Probably not very complimentary, but.........

[JMintzer]

When you've gone thru puberty as a male, you've already developed differently than a female.

Bigger, stronger bones and joints, different biomechanics...

That does not change once you've gone thru reassignment surgery. You will forever have that physical advantage.

The golfer being discussed was a competitive male golfer on his college golf team...

His/her (before or after reassignment surgery, lest anyone think I'm using the wrong pronoun) biomechanics will let him/her swing faster, thus hitting the ball farther... Simple kinesiology... You know... Science...

[LiverpoolWalrus]

...

[graciegirl]

It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.

Whoa. Put your broad brush down. AND Who is misguided, myopic and has a totally warped sense of reality???

People are allowed to say what they think here in The Villages and in this country even if we STRONGLY disagree with it. Or strongly stand with it.

My take is that most people who live in The Villages are old enough and wise enough to accept people and like them or not like them for who they are and not be influenced by their sexual orientation.

Being gay is not a decision. It is something that people are born with, just like Autism and genius and cognitive deficits and artistic ability and eye hand coordination and athletic build and color blindness and being physically attractive or not physically attractive or tall or short, blue or brown eyed, bald or not. Some things make it easier to live in this world and some make it harder. People may have a "gut" reaction to you that takes effort to control. Some try and some do not.

[JMintzer]

Whoa. Put your broad brush down. AND Who is misguided, myopic and has a totally warped sense of reality???

People are allowed to say what they think here in The Villages and in this country even if we STRONGLY disagree with it. Or strongly stand with it.

My take is that most people who live in The Villages are old enough and wise enough to accept people and like them or not like them for who they are and not be influenced by their sexual orientation.

Being gay is not a decision. It is something that people are born with, just like Autism and genius and cognitive deficits and artistic ability and eye hand coordination and athletic build and color blindness and being physically attractive or not physically attractive or tall or short, blue or brown eyed, bald or not. Some things make it easier to live in this world and some make it harder. People may have a "gut" reaction to you that takes effort to control. Some try and some do not.

Are you assuming that being transgender means you are automatically gay?

If so, you might want to check on that...

[DeanFL]

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...well, getting back on topic. When I first read this article, and others on this, my mind went to Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn. What IF he 'made the change' many years ago in HIS prime and decided to compete in women's Track & Field events. What then. If 'she' was successful, perhaps many of those records would be broken by him/her. That's the conundrum.
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[graciegirl]

Are you assuming that being transgender means you are automatically gay?

If so, you might want to check on that...

No. I am aware that being transgender doesn't automatically or even commonly mean you are gay. I have read that It is more common for transgender people to be attracted to the opposite sex, from what they began as not what they identify with. Not easy to frame in words. Must not be easy to live either.

[Stu from NYC]

Personally I do not believe the good lord above can make a mistake with someones gender.

If someone decides they are the opposite gender that is certainly their business and none of mine.

However given the differences between biologic males and females it is definitely wrong to allow a male who decides he is a female to compete in womens sports.

[Topspinmo]

Nothing new.



Decades later, Renee Richards' breakthrough is as important as ever | TENNIS.com - Live Scores, News, Player Rankings (https://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2021/03/40-years-later-renee-richards-breakthrough-important-ever/68064/)

But, but, pro tennis has always been ?? (put in what ever you desire) , want even playing ground? Then all tournaments should be open. Recreational or pro. No men’s or woman’s sports/tours. No short tees either for genders. No 3 set verses 5 sets in tennis for same $$$. Want to be equal then compete equally? That way gender makes no difference. :faint::shocked::ohdear:. Life is never fair and doubt it even will be? :popcorn:

[Topspinmo]

.
.
...well, getting back on topic. When I first read this article, and others on this, my mind went to Bruce Jenner, now Caitlyn. What IF he 'made the change' many years ago in HIS prime and decided to compete in women's Track & Field events. What then. If 'she' was successful, perhaps many of those records would be broken by him/her. That's the conundrum.
.
.

If all sports was open wouldn’t be problem.

[tophcfa]

"Freaks"? GE, aren't you a medical doctor?

Yes he is, so he fully understands the difference between the junk one is born with and what some freaks want to do to their God given bodies.

[tophcfa]

My hat's off to you, Grumpy. Whatever happened to the political philosophy that's so prevalent in the Villages - to live and let live, and be free to be yourself without interference?

Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.

[JMintzer]

Renee Richard's played in the U.S.Open over 40 years ago. There were the same comments then. How is the WTA (Women's Tennis Association) doing today? No comments about tennis not being golf please.

Renee Richards was a mediocre male tennis player before his transition surgery. Well past his prime...

Using Richard's as an example is a red herring.

A very good friend of mine has two sons who were both State Champions in High School. Played college tennis, but never were good enough to turn pro.

My friend has a vacation home in the same Country Club community as the Williams sisters.

The boys (now in their early 30s) practiced with them when came to visit. They've done so since they were in High School.

They would often beat both of them...

What's this all mean? That routinely (but not always), men are stronger and faster than women. It's a combination of biology and physics. You can change the biology, but not the physics...

[JMintzer]

Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.

I'm sure you mean no disrespect when you use the word "freak/freakish"... [/sacrasm]

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Not when your freakish actions creates an unfair playing field for non freak women who are trying to compete against other non freak biological women.

I get the controversy and I don't pretend to have an answer to it.

But this is about respect. You and at least two other posters here referred to trangendered people as "freaks." Are we really that perfect that we can judge other people? Several people here invoked the word "God." Didn't Jesus teach us not to judge?

I'm sure this thread is being read by transgenders, their family members, friends and loved ones. To call them "freaks" hurts ALL of those people and says volumes more about the one hurling the insult than it says about those to whom it's directed.

[stanley]

Several people here invoked the word "God." Didn't Jesus teach us not to judge?

.

I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.

[Taltarzac725]

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=First%2C%20at hletes%20must%20have%20undergone,legal%20recogniti on%20of%20their%20gender).

Would have to see a whole lot more science on this.

I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.

If you believe those Old Testament words written by humans are actually the word of God, fine. Does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?

[Topspinmo]

Transgender people in sports - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_people_in_sports#:~:text=First%2C%20at hletes%20must%20have%20undergone,legal%20recogniti on%20of%20their%20gender).

Would have to see a whole lot more science on this.

I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....

That’s why really don’t make difference, horse race good example. All about the training and commitment.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.

If you're looking for an excuse to be disrespectful, I might suggest you keep looking.

I find the best people out there have no trouble practicing common courtesy. That's what they do as members of a civilized society.

[Northwoods]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.

I hear what you are saying.
But if the "men identifying as women" are competing because they can't compete in a male-dominated sport. Then that's just wrong.
If the babies you identify have grown up and want to compete in a women's sport? Well... that's a different situation.
But I think you have to show where the "born as a man" athletes don't have the gene or genitals to identify as a certain sex.

[WesMan]

.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>
Not a Ms!!!!!! He should be playing with his real sex!!!

[WesMan]

When you've gone thru puberty as a male, you've already developed differently than a female.

Bigger, stronger bones and joints, different biomechanics...

That does not change once you've gone thru reassignment surgery. You will forever have that physical advantage.

The golfer being discussed was a competitive male golfer on his college golf team...

His/her (before or after reassignment surgery, lest anyone think I'm using the wrong pronoun) biomechanics will let him/her swing faster, thus hitting the ball farther... Simple kinesiology... You know... Science...
Correct!!!!!

[admiral72]

Golf uses handicaps and different tees to make the match fair at the start. Just create a transgender tee box.

Caitlyn Jenner says you do not need a better putter you need breasts. quote:

The answer is no, my game is still really good. And to be honest, the breasts are really good for putting.'

She explained: 'I used to put a sock under my arm to help keep my arms straight, but now I don’t have to do that any more because I can hold my arms against my breasts, so it’s perfect.’

[drgoofy]

It really isn't that simple. Some babies are born with ambiguous genetalia and the attending physician may make the "wrong call." Sometimes the genetalia may be undeveloped at birth. Uninformed posters shouldn't be so quick to judge and condemn. Put yourself in the place of a parent who loves that child as much as its siblings.

[donfey]

.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>

A transgender Woman is a MAN. The headline is incorrect. Period.

[stanley]

If you believe those Old Testament words written by humans are actually the word of God, fine. Does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?

So you are basically saying nothing in the Bible should be believed because it was written by man?

[JMintzer]

I have seen body building women who look a lot more like men....

Pharmaceuticals...

[cindyfeh]

I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
You may want to research the relationship between Jesus and Old Testament Law. Old Testament Law helped to separate the Jewish people for Jesus coming. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The New Testament looks at the heart, and the focus is loving others as ourselves.

[DanBrew]

No, Bill14574, it is very simple. When you are born, you are created with X and Y chromosomes, also known as the sex chromosomes, which determine the biological sex of an individual: females inherit an X chromosome from the father for a XX genotype, while males inherit a Y chromosome from the father for a XY genotype (mothers only pass on X chromosomes). Now, if you want to act as if that science doesn't exist, that is your free will to do that. However, this is not an emotional situation, it is a fact. Please don't impose emotions on others who don't deserve it.

[toeser]

.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>

Biological men being allowed to compete against women is wrong on every possible level.

[graciegirl]

So tell me, how exactly was I, or am I being disrespectful to anyone?
You are putting words in my mouth

I thanked you and I didn't mean to. One of the biggest problems about this whole argument about Sacred Scripture is the literal interpretation of written material that was translated several times as word usage changed over and over.

People who wrote the words lived in a time that was missing a lot of information and science. It appears to me to be something meant to guide and govern and inspire the people who lived at that time.

BUT THAT is a whole 'nuther argument.

I hold with no religion that justifies killing those who do not wish to belong or believe.

And I should not have written that. I know better than to start an argument about religion on here.

I haven't had my coffee.

I shouldn't push send without two cups.

[Girlcopper]

I don't either. I live with everyone. But discrimination in this case is required. Has to be.

But men competing in a physical sport against women is simply wrong.

Even if he is wearing a dress.

As far as threats of physical harm?

Do you think it is OK for a man to follow your little girl into the ladies room?
Perfectly said. Everyone is a supporter of everything until it affects them personally. Then they jump up on their soap box and claim discrimination or bias

[DaleDivine]

I didn't see any reference to Michelle Wie playing on the PGA tour. Soooo, why can't men compete on the LPGA tour. Some women want to level the playing field.
:bigbow::bigbow:

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by stanley View Post
I wasn' t going to take part in this "discussion" but since you brought up God, and Jesus.......

The most commonly cited verse on cross-gender behavior is Deuteronomy 22:5, “A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

There is more.
You may want to research the relationship between Jesus and Old Testament Law. Old Testament Law helped to separate the Jewish people for Jesus coming. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The New Testament looks at the heart, and the focus is loving others as ourselves.

I'm not sure that your comparison is relevant. Sort of apples and oranges. The quoted scripture is related to what GOD mandates and what you are insinuating is that Jesus says is to love others. There is an old saying that "GOD hates the sin but loves the Sinner" or something like that.
Personally, I believe that this thread has strayed from the original point regarding transgenders competing "fairly" in sports. One can have private opinions about transgenders and gays but still have thoughts regarding physical advantages when competing in sports. Just because a poster does not condone transgenders in competition, whether in their birth gender or the opposite, does not mean those persons "HATE." I believe that to insinuate such is insulting and immediately puts a halt on the conversation.
To the poster(s) that feel that the term "freak" is insulting or disparaging, would a term like "abnormal" or "unusual" be considered less of a slur? Opinion and Fact is not always identical, is it?

[Bill14564]

No, Bill14574, it is very simple. When you are born, you are created with X and Y chromosomes, also known as the sex chromosomes, which determine the biological sex of an individual: females inherit an X chromosome from the father for a XX genotype, while males inherit a Y chromosome from the father for a XY genotype (mothers only pass on X chromosomes). Now, if you want to act as if that science doesn't exist, that is your free will to do that. However, this is not an emotional situation, it is a fact. Please don't impose emotions on others who don't deserve it.

Please review your science. While what you write is correct for the majority, there is a minority that is different. But that is not the issue in this thread.

Impose emotions? My posts were arguing *against* the hate and prejudice on display in this thread. Those spewing that hate deserve to be called on it.

[Larchap49]

Personally I do not believe the good lord above can make a mistake with someones gender.

If someone decides they are the opposite gender that is certainly their business and none of mine.

However given the differences between biologic males and females it is definitely wrong to allow a male who decides he is a female to compete in womens sports.

YES, that is the correct answer. Women becoming men could never compete successfully against male athletes but men becoming women will definitely have an advantage against women. To the point when this person walks on a golf course every biological women should walk off at every level. The golfing authorities would then fix the problem.

[stanley]

This statement I do not understand;


I hold with no religion that justifies killing those who do not wish to belong or believe.


Where did anyone say or imply that any religion (or person for that matter) justifies killing those who do not join or believe?

[La lamy]

There is definitely a physiological advantage even after hormone therapy. Not fair. I'd be so irate if I was a female athlete dealing with these transgender issues.

[Byte1]

I suppose that in order to be "FAIR" regarding the "transgender" issue, we would have to change the rules for ALL sports and now allow all the athletes to use hormones/steroids legally. After all, if a transgender individual is allowed to use hormone therapy(?) and compete, wouldn't it be "fair" to allow ALL other athletes to use performing enhancement drugs? I suppose logic and common sense should be discarded in favor of being "fair" to a minority group in order NOT to offend them. Saying "no" should be banned when raising children, so as to NOT cause them mental anguish while growing up.

[BigHoss18]

Although all your statements are true, IMHO, you’re response misses the main point of this topic; fairness in sports.

No one will ever convince all people to be fair and kind to people that believe there are more than two genders. I’m this specific situation though, I agree that “sexually reassigned” people should not be allowed to compete with the new sex of players they now align with.

If transgenders want to compete, start their own league.

[Joe C.]

A male is a male and a female is a female.
The more we do to change this is something that I find DISGUSTING, SICK, and the more we cater to these people and applaud them and put them in the social and political spotlight, and give them government posts, the worse it gets.
IMHO, you are how you were born.

[bp243]

I don't support discrimination, insults, and threats of physical harm.

I also dislike simplistic solutions posed for complex situations.

Thanks for your empathic response.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

So you are basically saying nothing in the Bible should be believed because it was written by man?

Where did I say that? I did not. How do you spell red herring?

OK then, if you prefer, let's change the question to this:

The Old Testament words you quoted about cross dressing are truly the word of God and are to be obeyed. So does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?

[bobdeb]

Seriously, you 'guys' (males) out there are worrying too much about this.

Eventually, women are going to take care of this themselves as the 'unfairness' and social acceptance diminishes. Girl power.

So, what do the ladies out there posting here feel about competing against transgenders in athletic events? Has your daughter or granddaughter lost out on a scholarship yet?

Would love to hear from the female's perspective.

[Byte1]

Where did I say that? I did not. How do you spell red herring?

OK then, if you prefer, let's change the question to this:

The Old Testament words you quoted about cross dressing are truly the word of God and are to be obeyed. So does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?

I believe your idea is taken out of context.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

I thanked you and I didn't mean to. One of the biggest problems about this whole argument about Sacred Scripture is the literal interpretation of written material that was translated several times as word usage changed over and over.

People who wrote the words lived in a time that was missing a lot of information and science. It appears to me to be something meant to guide and govern and inspire the people who lived at that time.

BUT THAT is a whole 'nuther argument.

I hold with no religion that justifies killing those who do not wish to belong or believe.

And I should not have written that. I know better than to start an argument about religion on here.

I haven't had my coffee.

I shouldn't push send without two cups.

Right on Gracie! I don't always agree with you (and that's okay), but you hit a home run here!

[Greg Teeters]

Give me a break. No wonder our country is falling apart. I am pretty sure that ALL babies I have ever seen were born with a gender. How can you people be serious about men competing against women in sports? We know what party has got all this bs started. I believe freak show is the correct term. I can guarantee you one thing- no father I know wants one of these freaks going to the bathroom with his daughter!!!

[cindyfeh]

Atypical would be better. Yes, the thread did digress, and some posts were hurtful. Compassion is called for when people are born transgender. We don’t allow name calling in our schools, and it is disappointing when adults do it and did spark a reaction. Getting back to the original topic, I do not believe transgendered females should compete with biological females. It is a complicated issue which will take time to figure out.

[bp243]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.

Thanks for your response to bring some real science and true empathy to this complicated issue.

[stanley]

Where did I say that? I did not. How do you spell red herring?


Well you did say this;

If you believe those Old Testament words "WRITTEN BY HUMANS" are actually the word of God, fine.

So taken in context, since the Old and New Testaments were "written by humans", what they say is not the Word of God?
If that's not what you meant you should choose your words more carefully.

[Byte1]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.

What's this got to do with those that choose transgender as well as those transgenders that enter into sports? There is quite a bit of difference of "born with..." and those that chose to mutilate what they were born with, on the basis that they wish to be a different gender.
This whole thread is based on transgenders in sports, not the morality of sex change or homosexuality. No one is being "hateful" on here. They just do not agree with others, therefore have their own opinion. Hateful seems to be often misused lately.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Just because a poster does not condones transgenders in competition, whether in their birth gender or the opposite, does not mean those persons "HATE." I believe that to insinuate such is insulting and immediately puts a halt on the conversation.

Oh ya? Here is a direct quote from this thread: "yeah, we hate them.. And putting quotations around 'people' is simply dehumanizing them as people who commit those atrocities don't deserve the title of 'human'..."

As for "insinuating" that hatred is implied when using a slur like freak, such an insinuation is no different than when using "hebe" for jew, the N word for a person of color, "beaner" for Latino, "homo" for gay, "fatso" for the obese, etc.

I'm going to anticipate that you (or someone) will argue that those epithets do not necessarily imply hatred, per se. OK, maybe, but it's indisputable they are condescending at the very least. And again, while we have a right to be condescending or even hateful, we will be scorned by a civilized society.

[sjeffries]

Everyday babies are born with genitals that can not be identified as male or female.

Everyday babies are born with genitals of both sexes.

Everyday babies are born with genitals that do not match their genes.

Everyday children are born with genes that do not define “normal” sexual orientation- ie. they don’t have the standard two genes, X and Y combination,

These babies have to grow up in a world full of cruel hateful people.
Thank you for your list of “abnormalities” that do occur.

Unless you’ve had a personal experience with with someone as you’ve stated, you cannot criticize fairly or with any basic knowledge of the issue.

Society used to shun left-handed people, or people with epilepsy. Grow up and acknowledge this malady exists.

[Aces4]

Thank you for your list of “abnormalities” that do occur.

Unless you’ve had a personal experience with with someone as you’ve stated, you cannot criticize fairly or with any basic knowledge of the issue.

Society used to shun left-handed people, or people with epilepsy. Grow up and acknowledge this malady exists.


We know they exist, that isn’t the point which is total distortion of fair play for the LPGA. The answer is to develop competitions between transgender participators. Now we’re talking about equality!

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Well you did say this;



So taken in context, since the Old and New Testaments were "written by humans", what they say is not the Word of God?
If that's not what you meant you should choose your words more carefully.

Oh come on. It's a fact they were written by humans! That doesn't mean the message didn't necessarily come from God.

I chose the words "written by humans" purposely to allow for the possibility that they were changed or enhanced. Saying it's "fine" if you believe they are the literal word of God allows for the possibility they are the unvarnished truth.

I respect everyone's take on religion and spirituality, but this getting into the weeds is not suitable for this forum, in my opinion. We can pick apart each others words for hours, as has been going on since religion first appeared.

That said, I can't help but notice you've dodged the key question twice: "So does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?"

[DAVES]

.
.
Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>

Where we are and how we got here. We are attempting to accommodate everyone.
It is simply impossible to do.

Many years ago the Russians gave male hormones to their Olympic athletes. It was declared illegal. I recall seeing a follow up article on those women. As I recall there was a high rate of suicide. They could not or had trouble getting pregnant.

I am not religious but I do believe in nature. What we are doing cannot be called by anyone on any side of this issue as being natural.

Jenner, the the public spokes person for transgenders. Was a male Olympic star now a female. HUH? Truth of not, I've read he/she/it prefers women sexually.

Happy transgenders?

[stanley]

That said, I can't help but notice you've dodged the key question twice: "So does that mean we can ignore Jesus' admonition not to judge?"

Can you prove those were Jesus's words. After all they were written by humans also

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Can you prove those were Jesus's words. After all they were written by humans also

I cannot. And you have a point.

Are you saying you believe some of the bible but not all? Or that some of it is the word of God but not all? Just wondering.

[stanley]

I cannot. And you have a point.

Are you saying you believe some of the bible but not all? Or that some of it is the word of God but not all? Just wondering.

No, no I'm not

[Stu from NYC]

Where we are and how we got here. We are attempting to accommodate everyone.
It is simply impossible to do.

Many years ago the Russians gave male hormones to their Olympic athletes. It was declared illegal. I recall seeing a follow up article on those women. As I recall there was a high rate of suicide. They could not or had trouble getting pregnant.

I am not religious but I do believe in nature. What we are doing cannot be called by anyone on any side of this issue as being natural.

Jenner, the the public spokes person for transgenders. Was a male Olympic star now a female. HUH? Truth of not, I've read he/she/it prefers women sexually.

Happy transgenders?

Does this mean that Jenner is a lesbian? Asking for a friend.

[DAVES]

Thanks for your response to bring some real science and true empathy to this complicated issue.

I am left handed. The world should all be left handed. Wait, I have a pair of left handed scissors and I can't use them. I force the blades apart due to having lived in the real world.

The world cannot accommodate everyone.

New York City had a plan to put in more public restrooms. As I recall they looked at several. One was being used in France and I think it was the top contender. It never happened reason insistence that they must accommodate people in wheel chairs and then I think blind people. To get a plan that would work would require people in every location to help whatever is the pc word. Result badly needed public restrooms were never put up.

Nothing is or ever will be perfect and yet we demand perfection. Where we are and how we got here.

[DAVES]

Does this mean that Jenner is a lesbian? Asking for a friend.

Truth, reality, I do not know, I do not care.
Labels? Jenner is running on the republican ticket in California. Talk about confusing.
I expect, rather than asking here, you could call the campaign office and ask.

[Byte1]

Where we are and how we got here. We are attempting to accommodate everyone.
It is simply impossible to do.

Many years ago the Russians gave male hormones to their Olympic athletes. It was declared illegal. I recall seeing a follow up article on those women. As I recall there was a high rate of suicide. They could not or had trouble getting pregnant.

I am not religious but I do believe in nature. What we are doing cannot be called by anyone on any side of this issue as being natural.

Jenner, the the public spokes person for transgenders. Was a male Olympic star now a female. HUH? Truth of not, I've read he/she/it prefers women sexually.

Happy transgenders?

Not quite subject related, but......does that mean Jenner is gay? If Jenner is now female, and Jenner prefers women sexually, it seems to me that would make Jenner homosexual, correct? Just a rhetoric question, which means no answer necessary. But, you have to admit, this makes an interesting point or hypothesis.

[Sherry8bal]

I'm sorry but just because he/she "feels" like a woman or "wants" to be a woman or "thinks" she's a woman, he/she is still a MAN in the structure of his/her body. That means he/she has male muscles that a woman can never have and he/she should NOT be allowed to compete on any women's format.

[Byte1]

Oh ya? Here is a direct quote from this thread: "yeah, we hate them.. And putting quotations around 'people' is simply dehumanizing them as people who commit those atrocities don't deserve the title of 'human'..."

As for "insinuating" that hatred is implied when using a slur like freak, such an insinuation is no different than when using "hebe" for jew, the N word for a person of color, "beaner" for Latino, "homo" for gay, "fatso" for the obese, etc.

I'm going to anticipate that you (or someone) will argue that those epithets do not necessarily imply hatred, per se. OK, maybe, but it's indisputable they are condescending at the very least. And again, while we have a right to be condescending or even hateful, we will be scorned by a civilized society.

Perhaps sensitive individuals should not enter into discussions where they might be offended by someone else's difference in opinion? I must have missed the part in the First Amendment that stipulated that freedom of speech must be limited to only agreeable comments. Sorry about the sarcasm. I put that caveat on, so you would know that I am being sensitive to others' concerns about "hateful" language. :icon_wink:

[DAVES]

Can you prove those were Jesus's words. After all they were written by humans also

Wow, a hairy subject to open.

Many people refuse to realize that for them freedom of religion is so long as it is my religion. A major problem when people talk about religion in public schools.

As far as the words of Jesus, they were not written till centuries after the death of Jesus. We all have played the game called telephone. A complected tale is told one by one to a line of people and then you/we are amazed at how it has changed with the retelling.

The new testament has been edited, translated into most languages and all versions are not the same.

[captboxcar]

He should be playing men he is not a woman and should not be allowed on LPGA,not fair to actual women

[captboxcar]

That would remove all women from fair competition.Play according to your birth gender.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

No, no I'm not

Then I'm overjoyed you respect Jesus' admonition not to judge.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Does this mean that Jenner is a lesbian? Asking for a friend.

Yes, Caitlyn Jenner is a lesbian. Who cares?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Perhaps sensitive individuals should not enter into discussions where they might be offended by someone else's difference in opinion? I must have missed the part in the First Amendment that stipulated that freedom of speech must be limited to only agreeable comments. Sorry about the sarcasm. I put that caveat on, so you would know that I am being sensitive to others' concerns about "hateful" language. :icon_wink:

I can't deny the freedom guaranteed by the First Amendment and I wholeheartedly embrace it here and everywhere. That does not mean that give-and-take discussion where divergent parties can possibly learn from each other should not take place.

[Byte1]

Wow, a hairy subject to open.

Many people refuse to realize that for them freedom of religion is so long as it is my religion. A major problem when people talk about religion in public schools.

As far as the words of Jesus, they were not written till centuries after the death of Jesus. We all have played the game called telephone. A complected tale is told one by one to a line of people and then you/we are amazed at how it has changed with the retelling.

The new testament has been edited, translated into most languages and all versions are not the same.

Kind of off track from the subject, BUT....... the "words" of Jesus were written by Apostles, right? I do not believe they lived "centuries" after his death. I am no expert, but I am pretty sure. :pray:

[golfing eagles]

It was a lie from the get-go. The actual rule is "live and let live, as long as you live in a way that fits my misguided, myopic, and totally warped sense of reality."

That has been the rule here, it is still the rule here, and unless more people like you, me, Grumpy, and yes even justjim work to change it, it'll continue to be the rule.

There are transgenders living right here in the Villages, who might have read these posts and seen that members of THEIR community are referring to them as "freaks." A doctor, no less. "America's Friendliest Hometown" is a lie.

Give it a rest. You are intelligent enough to know I was NOT rendering a medical opinion. I can remember at least 2 pre-op and two [post-op transgender patients, and they were all treated with the utmost of respect, dignity, and professionalism. So don't give me that "a doctor, no less" crap.

What I expressed was a personal opinion, we are still permitted that in America, the PC police haven't taken that away completely(yet). And it is not without basis. We have mapped the entire human genome, and I don't think we have found the "transgender" gene. So the argument that they were "born that way" is, well to be polite, unsubstantiated. Therefore there is something in their environment/upbringing that led to their condition. Maybe mommy gave the boys too many dolls to play with or the girls the GI Joe bazooka. Maybe there was sexual abuse at a very early age. But in any case, I've found that all transgenders I know have deeply seated psychopathology.

Unless you go to some third world craphole for your surgery, legitimate programs will do very thorough psychiatric testing. That, in and of itself , should tell you something.
But as I said before, I don't "hate" transgender people, I simply disagree with the premise. So for all those holier than thou posters who didn't like the word "freak", I ask if you ever cured pneumonia or treated HTN or DM for your transgender neighbors?? I didn't think so, thus the guy with the "don't judge" line can judge that.

And back to the OP----I played golf with a transgender individual (male--->female). He/she was hitting their drives 280-300. At least he/she didn't play the yellow tees with all the other "girls".

[Byte1]

To get back onto the subject; I wonder how women feel about this. Considering the fact that men should have NO say, metaphorically speaking, since we are speaking of Women's sports, I think it is totally up to the females of this country to dictate how this should act out. Do women think progressively to the point that they welcome men(?) that appear to be women into their cadre? Do they feel that they can compete in a female based genre sport with male hormone, male birthed individual that prefers to dress as a female? Just wondering. Maybe they like the idea of competing with a she/male(? no slur intended) in hopes of reveling in knowing that they beat a competitor that is for all intents and purposes still considered physically a male to the females in the competition. On the other hand, how many females would consider it "fair" to have to compete with what they might consider a male in a female sport? This really has nothing to do with which bathroom someone uses, or sexual preference. This is about sports.

[JMintzer]

No, Bill14574, it is very simple. When you are born, you are created with X and Y chromosomes, also known as the sex chromosomes, which determine the biological sex of an individual: females inherit an X chromosome from the father for a XX genotype, while males inherit a Y chromosome from the father for a XY genotype (mothers only pass on X chromosomes). Now, if you want to act as if that science doesn't exist, that is your free will to do that. However, this is not an emotional situation, it is a fact. Please don't impose emotions on others who don't deserve it.

https://y.yarn.co/2d1ee8b0-3c16-4959-8d6e-ef5bcee1cd83_text.gif

[oneclickplus]

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Well, the landscape of Mens/Womens pro sports has a challenge, perhaps not totally new, but certainly will escalate in the future.

NEWS>>>
So much for fairness: Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA

Last week, Hailey Davidson, a transgender woman, won her first professional title in Florida, topping LPGA player Perrine Delacour for the win.

The same day, she was sent an email by the USGA saying she’s met the organization’s Gender Policy eligibility criteria and can now compete in its championships and she’s hoping to hear similar news from the LPGA via a reciprocity agreement, according to Golfweek.

In January, Ms. Davidson underwent gender reassignment surgery, and she’s been undergoing hormone treatments since 2015. Since transitioning, Ms. Davidson said she hits shorter and swings slower — yet she still was born a man, and obviously, has a physical advantage over biological women.

The science in these cases is clear. Biological men have more muscle mass, larger hearts and lungs, and therefore greater stamina than biological women. Their bones are bigger, and their testosterone helps promote muscle memory — that doesn’t go away even after hormone therapy. Therefore, transgender girls have a heightened ability to build strength even after they’ve transitioned.


Entire article link (BTW, reported by many sources)>

Transgender woman golfer wins mini-tour event, aims for LPGA - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/17/transgender-woman-golfer-wins-mini-tour-event-aims/)

Before/After photos>

I wonder if Biblical morality is considered "political" for purposes of posting in this forum. Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough.

The fact is that HE is not a woman.

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1:27)

A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God. (Deuteronomy 22:5)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, KJV)

God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33)

The transgender agenda encourages and exploits confusion. It is NOT good for those who consider themselves transgendered.

The transgender movement is destructive to society and that includes female sports.

The trend we have seen in the USA from its leadership in Washington, D.C. this month is not good.

But it is consistent with the type of immorality expected for the last days (cf. 1 Timothy 3:1-15; Romans 1:18-32).

Political correctness and immorality run amok.

[JMintzer]

Seriously, you 'guys' (males) out there are worrying too much about this.

Eventually, women are going to take care of this themselves as the 'unfairness' and social acceptance diminishes. Girl power.

So, what do the ladies out there posting here feel about competing against transgenders in athletic events? Has your daughter or granddaughter lost out on a scholarship yet?

Would love to hear from the female's perspective.

Straight from the horse's mouth...

3 Connecticut high school girls are suing over a policy that allows trans athletes to compete in girls' sports - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/us/transgender-athletes-connecticut-lawsuit/index.html)

[Two Bills]

Lets hope Bryson DeChambeau dosn't go all Victorias Secret, and get on the LPGA Tour!

[JMintzer]

Does this mean that Jenner is a lesbian? Asking for a friend.

Is this the same "friend" who asked about "Gentleman's Clubs" in that other thread? ;)

[JMintzer]

I am left handed. The world should all be left handed. Wait, I have a pair of left handed scissors and I can't use them. I force the blades apart due to having lived in the real world.

Freak!

P.S I'm also left handed... ;)

[oneclickplus]

You reap what you sow. If women protested this issue, then there would be a stop to it immediately. If they sit back and allow it, then they get treated just like they did before they won the right to vote.
I do not hate transgenders, gays, etc. I just do not condone it. I believe that what one is, they were born with, not able to change what GOD made them. What a person does in private (relationship) is their business and I just don't care. But, I do not believe that a male should be able to enter a restroom with a female child or adult. I do not believe in transgenders in sports unless the sport is classed as open gender, male and female. But, that is just my opinion. What entertainment does to entertain is up to them and if they start losing support, then I guess they will change. I don't have to watch a sport or any other type of entertainment if I disapprove of something. I do not watch football anymore because of the athletes kneeling during the National Anthem. That is my prerogative. And the interesting point is that now I no longer miss those sports.
Someone said it is not fair that a male is allowed to play in a sport that has been dedicated to females. It's been going on the other way also. Females have attempted to enter male sports such as football, etc. What is fair? I would have to say that it is not fair in public school that males can enter female sports. Developing girls should be able to compete on equal terms with other girls while they are developing in public school. Otherwise, I really don't care. Sports is just entertainment and if they want to add a new element to it, I guess they will see how the public accepts it or not.

Women can not protest / object to this without compromising their "equality" argument. If men can't participate in women's sports (and I happen to agree with that), then women don't belong in the most intense sport on the planet (military). Facts are facts and disagreeing with them doesn't change them one whit.

[JMintzer]

Not quite subject related, but......does that mean Jenner is gay? If Jenner is now female, and Jenner prefers women sexually, it seems to me that would make Jenner homosexual, correct? Just a rhetoric question, which means no answer necessary. But, you have to admit, this makes an interesting point or hypothesis.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/200.gif

[Byte1]

So, just out of curiousity what was Hailey Davidson's name before transgender? Harley Davidson?? :1rotfl: :1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

Lets hope Bryson DeChambeau dosn't go all Victorias Secret, and get on the LPGA Tour!

:bigbow:

[Ponygirl]

I am appalled at the number of disrespectful, mean spirted and ugly posts today. So many adding their comments about something they know nothing.

I tried to find the posters name who posted abt African American male genitalia so that I could request that he be banned from this site. So disgusting and inappropriate. But the post must have been removed.

Nearly every day it is shocking to read what people post on Talk of the Villages. An embarrassment.

The ideal would be that this community be welcoming, kind and inclusive rather than what it is.

[Marty94]

As a female athlete, I have competed at the national and international level. In the past, I was made aware of transgender athletes competing and opted out of those competitions, as my husband, a doctor, explained the physiology advantages.

My take on transgender athletes is that they should be allowed to compete, but against each other. There should be a separate division for them. I mean, we have special olympics, para-olympics, etc. There is no need to shame or berate or call them freaks, but there are physical differences and this should be addressed so that everyone can compete in a fair and safe environment. And I emphasize the latter. If you want to see what a trans can do to women athletes, search for Fallon Fox who has fractured skulls and broken opponent’s bones. Not all sports are non-contact.

The International Olympic Committee states that an athlete has to be at a specific hormone level for only one year to qualify. The athlete does not have to undergo any surgery. This is a huge advantage for men, who might not be able to qualify in their division, to transition and compete as a woman. As Olympic and pro athletes get a great deal of endorsement money, I believe you are going to see more men going in this direction. Thus, I hope that more women will ban together and protest. After all, when the top 14-16 year old boys can crush women’s world records set in track and field, there is clearly a reason that men and women separately compete. I believe it only fair that this should remain the standard and thus a new division be created for trans athletes.

[Byte1]

I am appalled at the number of disrespectful, mean spirted and ugly posts today. So many adding their comments about something they know nothing.

I tried to find the posters name who posted abt African American male genitalia so that I could request that he be banned from this site. So disgusting and inappropriate. But the post must have been removed.

Nearly every day it is shocking to read what people post on Talk of the Villages. An embarrassment.

The ideal would be that this community be welcoming, kind and inclusive rather than what it is.

The Villages really is "kind and inclusive" but it is NOT Stepford. The Developers advertised this place as American's Friendliest Hometown. In reality, The Villages is a sampling of seniors from all over the country, and from some other countries. Generally speaking, this really is a great and friendly town. It's big, so you are going to find at least one person that you do not agree with, or may not be as friendly as you might wish. I have found folks to be very nice and helpful. Villagers like to enjoy their freedom and liberty. Generally speaking, most are patriotic and proud. That said, many folks have their opinions and preferences. What's wrong with that? Seniors have the tendency to speak out. What's wrong with that? Seniors have "toed" the line for the majority of their lives and now that they will suffer very little repercussions for their blatant speech, they tend to speak their minds. Speaking for others, seniors mean no ill will when they speak their mind. Even if they do not agree with you, you will find folks falling all over each other to assist you if you need help. Yes, this "home town" is the friendliest. Kind of hard to find another town that has friendlier people. Like I said, we are not Stepford so we do have our faults. At our ages, we expect to be excused for minor slights.

[Stu from NYC]

As a female athlete, I have competed at the national and international level. In the past, I was made aware of transgender athletes competing and opted out of those competitions, as my husband, a doctor, explained the physiology advantages.

My take on transgender athletes is that they should be allowed to compete, but against each other. There should be a separate division for them. I mean, we have special olympics, para-olympics, etc. There is no need to shame or berate or call them freaks, but there are physical differences and this should be addressed so that everyone can compete in a fair and safe environment. And I emphasize the latter. If you want to see what a trans can do to women athletes, search for Fallon Fox who has fractured skulls and broken opponent’s bones. Not all sports are non-contact.

The International Olympic Committee states that an athlete has to be at a specific hormone level for only one year to qualify. The athlete does not have to undergo any surgery. This is a huge advantage for men, who might not be able to qualify in their division, to transition and compete as a woman. As Olympic and pro athletes get a great deal of endorsement money, I believe you are going to see more men going in this direction. Thus, I hope that more women will ban together and protest. After all, when the top 14-16 year old boys can crush women’s world records set in track and field, there is clearly a reason that men and women separately compete. I believe it only fair that this should remain the standard and thus a new division be created for trans athletes.

Very well said

[GATORBILL66]

Just isn't fair to real women!

[Boomer]

I am appalled at the number of disrespectful, mean spirted and ugly posts today. So many adding their comments about something they know nothing.

I tried to find the posters name who posted abt African American male genitalia so that I could request that he be banned from this site. So disgusting and inappropriate. But the post must have been removed.

Nearly every day it is shocking to read what people post on Talk of the Villages. An embarrassment.

The ideal would be that this community be welcoming, kind and inclusive rather than what it is.


I agree with you completely.

This thread-start was destined (and perhaps designed) to go down this road.

I have been on TOTV since its beginning and throughout all those years, I never reported a thread. But that has changed — and I don’t like it. I flagged this one early, very early.

Yet, here we are, past 100 posts, most of which are some seriously ugly stuff.

And, yes, I also saw the one you mentioned. But I would not be surprised if the one who posted it is still among us. There was a time though when that would have meant an instant banning.

Btw, accepting though I am and a kind soul, too, I do not think transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. I think that because it is not fair competition and because my common sense tells me so.

That being said, I do not think hate-mongering is ever acceptable. And the subject at hand invited that and the spewing has been allowed to continue.

There is a pattern lately of certain posters being allowed to really push the envelope — actually it’s turned into more than that — it goes beyond. I do not understand why this is happening. But it is now the bent of TOTV.

(And I need to stop deluding myself that it will get better around here.)

Boomer

[DeanFL]

I agree with you completely.

This thread-start was destined (and perhaps designed) to go down this road.

I have been on TOTV since its beginning and throughout all those years, I never reported a thread. But that has changed — and I don’t like it. I flagged this one early, very early.

Yet, here we are, past 100 posts, most of which are some seriously ugly stuff.

And, yes, I also saw the one you mentioned. But I would not be surprised if the one who posted it is still among us. There was a time though when that would have meant an instant banning.

Btw, accepting though I am and a kind soul, too, I do not think transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. I think that because it is not fair competition and because my common sense tells me so.

That being said, I do not think hate-mongering is ever acceptable. And the subject at hand invited that and the spewing has been allowed to continue.

There is a pattern lately of certain posters being allowed to really push the envelope — actually it’s turned into more than that — it goes beyond. I do not understand why this is happening. But it is continuing to be the bent of TOTV.
(And I need to stop deluding myself that it will get better around here.)
Boomer
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sorry Boomer - DO NOT blame the 'messenger'....OP.

I felt this would be a very topical and interesting Thread. So (as usual) some responders push the envelope and vent their strong personal opinions. OF COURSE if some of these are offensive, personal, or abuse ToTV rules - DELETE and WARN, or worse, the OFFENDERS. But "destined to go down a road"??? ANY Thread can do this if some responders take it that way...

But to (often) state that the THREAD & OP is the 'problem' - is offensive to me.

So, if some abuse the rules or are offensive - do not allow others to provide their views on a good topic???

If you do have issues with "ugly stuff" flag it to the Mods - and if you are still dissatisfied email THEM.

But to stifle what could (and should) be interesting feedback and opinions of a current topic - is CANCEL Culture.
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[Joe C.]

Nothing on here is "ugly" ...... it's just normal, diverse, human reaction to a subject that is complicated and offends many people's sense of morality.

[jimbomaybe]

In other words, spread the transgenders out evenly to create a level playing field???? I don't think so. With all the shades of grey they will have to expand the number of people on the teams to accommodate everyone will they not ?..... what a joke

[tophcfa]

But this is about respect. You and at least two other posters here referred to trangendered people as "freaks." Are we really that perfect that we can judge other people? Several people here invoked the word "God." Didn't Jesus teach us not to judge?

I'm sure this thread is being read by transgenders, their family members, friends and loved ones. To call them "freaks" hurts ALL of those people and says volumes more about the one hurling the insult than it says about those to whom it's directed.

Hmmm, the author of the quoted post preaches against judging other people, and then in the next sentence he passes judgement on people who disagree with his opinions? You can't have an intelligent debate with someone who defies logic. Reminds me of regrettable conversations around the dinner table with my sisters during holidays.

[fishon]

Nontraditional sexuality was dealt with as mental illness when I worked with convicts.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Although all your statements are true, IMHO, you’re response misses the main point of this topic; fairness in sports.

No one will ever convince all people to be fair and kind to people that believe there are more than two genders. I’m this specific situation though, I agree that “sexually reassigned” people should not be allowed to compete with the new sex of players they now align with.

If transgenders want to compete, start their own league.

Crazy, I suggested the same thing at one point and was told my posts are stupid.

[Stu from NYC]

And I'll say what I said the last time: if leagues were not divided by gender in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue at all. No more mens' teams and womens' teams. Just teams.

As they should be

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Discussion of sports is stupid, so I'm editing all my contributions to this thread.

[Topspinmo]

I agree with you completely.

This thread-start was destined (and perhaps designed) to go down this road.

I have been on TOTV since its beginning and throughout all those years, I never reported a thread. But that has changed — and I don’t like it. I flagged this one early, very early.

Yet, here we are, past 100 posts, most of which are some seriously ugly stuff.

And, yes, I also saw the one you mentioned. But I would not be surprised if the one who posted it is still among us. There was a time though when that would have meant an instant banning.

Btw, accepting though I am and a kind soul, too, I do not think transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in women’s sports. I think that because it is not fair competition and because my common sense tells me so.

That being said, I do not think hate-mongering is ever acceptable. And the subject at hand invited that and the spewing has been allowed to continue.

There is a pattern lately of certain posters being allowed to really push the envelope — actually it’s turned into more than that — it goes beyond. I do not understand why this is happening. But it is now the bent of TOTV.

(And I need to stop deluding myself that it will get better around here.)

Boomer

You do have the power to stop going on forum’s that don’t meet you’re standards. Good luck finding any forum that will conform to you’re standards.

[Topspinmo]

I'm a woman. I'm not compromising a damned thing. I don't feel that transgenders belong in gender-specific team sports. I ALSO don't feel that gender-specific team sports should exist at all. If a woman wants to join a football team, her acceptance or rejection should be based on her ability to perform up to the standards of the team. It shouldn't matter what's between her legs - she'd be wearing a cup just like the men do. What matters is, can she catch a ball? Can she throw it well? Can she tackle? Can she take a tackle? Can she run? Can she pass, feint, hurl, and do everything else that is expected of "a football player" regardless of their genitalia? Yes? Then she should be accepted onto the team. No? Then she's out.

Should a man be allowed on the syncronized swim team? Is he graceful in the water? Does he know how to swim? Can he move his arms and legs in the required way? Can he do a handstand in the water? Can he spin in the water? Can he hold his breath underwater for a minute or longer? Yes? Then he is on the team. No? Then he's out.

The criteria for ANY sport should be ability. Not genitalia. Full stop.

I agree, but not going to happen.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

You do have the power to stop going on forum’s that don’t meet you’re standards. Good luck finding any forum that will conform to you’re standards.

I'd be content if the posters merely conformed to the Terms of Service. They can't manage that, and the only reason I can think of why they are able to get away with it on this thread is that the moderators have been unavailable for the past few days.

[Tom52]

I'm a woman. I'm not compromising a damned thing. I don't feel that transgenders belong in gender-specific team sports. I ALSO don't feel that gender-specific team sports should exist at all. If a woman wants to join a football team, her acceptance or rejection should be based on her ability to perform up to the standards of the team. It shouldn't matter what's between her legs - she'd be wearing a cup just like the men do. What matters is, can she catch a ball? Can she throw it well? Can she tackle? Can she take a tackle? Can she run? Can she pass, feint, hurl, and do everything else that is expected of "a football player" regardless of their genitalia? Yes? Then she should be accepted onto the team. No? Then she's out.

Should a man be allowed on the syncronized swim team? Is he graceful in the water? Does he know how to swim? Can he move his arms and legs in the required way? Can he do a handstand in the water? Can he spin in the water? Can he hold his breath underwater for a minute or longer? Yes? Then he is on the team. No? Then he's out.

The criteria for ANY sport should be ability. Not genitalia. Full stop.

So, if sports evolve as you suggest there would be no womens golf, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track, soccer teams, etc. That does not seem fair to me. Women deserve to have opportunities for athletic scholarships and professional careers same as men. Mybe I mis-read what you are proposing.

[DeanFL]

So, if sports evolve as you suggest there would be no womens golf, tennis, basketball, volleyball, track, soccer teams, etc. That does not seem fair to me. Women deserve to have opportunities for athletic scholarships and professional careers same as men. Mybe I mis-read what you are proposing.
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Completely totally agree with this. Piling ALL 'genders' into generic sports teams as suggested by OBB would backfire on so many girls/women. That's a simplistic reaction to a complex issue. I could go on and give a multitude of specifics, but spare me.
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[Topspinmo]

Renee Richards was a mediocre male tennis player before his transition surgery. Well past his prime...

Using Richard's as an example is a red herring.

A very good friend of mine has two sons who were both State Champions in High School. Played college tennis, but never were good enough to turn pro.

My friend has a vacation home in the same Country Club community as the Williams sisters.

The boys (now in their early 30s) practiced with them when came to visit. They've done so since they were in High School.

They would often beat both of them...

What's this all mean? That routinely (but not always), men are stronger and faster than women. It's a combination of biology and physics. You can change the biology, but not the physics...

Then there the story that sisters said could be any man out of top 100 ATP ranking. As story goes chain smoking German ranked somewhere around 200 ( who would even light up during match) took that bet and won.

[Topspinmo]

I'd be content if the posters merely conformed to the Terms of Service. They can't manage that, and the only reason I can think of why they are able to get away with it on this thread is that the moderators have been unavailable for the past few days.


Agree, but some to majority get heated debate and sometimes post before they think 🤔, yes, I know this hard to believe? But, even a know it all like Me can fall of the straight and narrow. :faint:

[JMintzer]

And I'll say what I said the last time: if leagues were not divided by gender in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue at all. No more mens' teams and womens' teams. Just teams.

Then, then vast majority of women would never "make the team"...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

n/t

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

n/t

[bobdeb]

And I'll say what I said the last time: if leagues were not divided by gender in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue at all. No more mens' teams and womens' teams. Just teams.

Men don't care. Women care. They want their own teams.

[Bay Kid]

This world is so confused.

[JMintzer]

I don't see why not. Any sport can be divided by something OTHER than gender. If females have a lower capacity for brute strength, then you can have a "lower strength" league. Like you have bantam-weight and lightweight fighting matches. You wouldn't pit a heavyweight fighter with a bantam-weight fighter. Why not? They're all male aren't they? So why aren't they all fighting each other? Because it wouldn't be much of a fight. Because the fights are matched based on weight, not on gender.

But I'll bet if you chose to select teams based on ability, rather than gender, you'd come up with a decent mix of people. And sure - one set of teams might end up being all men. But it wouldn't be required that their gender be male. It would simply be the natural result of selecting by ability. They'd compete against each other NOT because they're men, but because they all fit within a certain standard of ability. And if it just so happens that you get a woman, or a transgender, or a hermaphrodite, or someone who claims no gender at all, who is able to bat home runs better than Hank Aaron, well then you should be grateful she/they/he is in your league and not be too concerned that their genitals look different from yours.

If you can do A, B, and C proficiently, then you are in THIS league.
If you can do A, B, and C only moderately, then you are in THAT league.
If you can do A, B, and C excellently, you belong in THAT OTHER league.

All are open to any gender, no gender, unsure gender, whatever gender. Gender ceases to matter.

You'd lose that bet.

Men will be stronger and faster regardless of "weight class"...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And after you do all that, what have you really accomplished. Strike a victory for women's lib and liberalism? BFD

After you reject it and expend vast amounts of energy rejecting it, what have YOU really accomplished? Proven that you have a big e-peen and making all the denture-wearing old biddies in the world hot for your ace viagra skills? BFD

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

You'd lose that bet.

Men will be stronger and faster regardless of "weight class"...

based on ability,

You missed that.

I used prizefighting as an example of what I was talking about. Obviously weight doesn't matter when you're talking about golf. You'd need a different set of criteria. Whether or not you are possessed of a p.e.n.i.s. or vagina or both or neither should be absolutely, positively, unequivocally irrelevant.

Edit: ridiculous periods between the letters of the word because apparently ToTV is too immature to accept the actual word. Interesting that it has no problem with the word vagina though.

[Joe V.]

After you reject it and expend vast amounts of energy rejecting it, what have YOU really accomplished? Proven that you have a big e-peen and making all the denture-wearing old biddies in the world hot for your ace viagra skills? BFD

Projection and wishful thinking all in the last sentence! Amazing.

[tvbound]

I don't think it's fair for those who were born with inherently superior strength as a male, to compete against females where those attributes are a factor and give a big advantage. More importantly in the big scheme of things however, is the outright disgusting comments made by quite a few in this thread. The world is ugly and hateful enough, so why do so many believe it is their job to spread, exhibit and/or expose their unfortunate disease of anger, ugliness, hatred and discrimination to everyone else? Speaking of genetics, and recognizing the unsolvable nature/nurture argument, one can still only hope that these nasty folks - cannot genetically pass on their disease.

[JMintzer]

You missed that.

I used prizefighting as an example of what I was talking about. Obviously weight doesn't matter when you're talking about golf. You'd need a different set of criteria. Whether or not you are possessed of a p.e.n.i.s. or vagina or both or neither should be absolutely, positively, unequivocally irrelevant.

Edit: ridiculous periods between the letters of the word because apparently ToTV is too immature to accept the actual word. Interesting that it has no problem with the word vagina though.

If you actually read my response, I said "regardless of weight"...

Smaller men still have an physical advantage over women of the same size...

You know... Science...

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

If you actually read my response, I said "regardless of weight"...

Smaller men still have an physical advantage over women of the same size...

You know... Science...

And again - I refer you to the word "ability."

Ability doesn't equate with size.

A 13-year-old 100-pound 5'0" geeky girl with a 170iq is no less able to do things that require a high IQ than a 30-year-old 170-pound 5'10" guy who has a perfect 6-pack and can lift 240 pounds with one hand.

A short, slender, agile but not muscular amateur league golfer female who has 20 years experience playing and has 11 holes in one recorded in league play, is no less capable of being on a man's league than a heavier, taller, more muscular male with 20 years of experience playing with 11 holes in one recorded in league play.

A female bowler with a 235 average is no less capable of bowling a 300 than a male bowler with a 235 average.

[Aces4]

And again - I refer you to the word "ability."

Ability doesn't equate with size.

A 13-year-old 100-pound 5'0" geeky girl with a 170iq is no less able to do things that require a high IQ than a 30-year-old 170-pound 5'10" guy who has a perfect 6-pack and can lift 240 pounds with one hand.

A short, slender, agile but not muscular amateur league golfer female who has 20 years experience playing and has 11 holes in one recorded in league play, is no less capable of being on a man's league than a heavier, taller, more muscular male with 20 years of experience playing with 11 holes in one recorded in league play.

A female bowler with a 235 average is no less capable of bowling a 300 than a male bowler with a 235 average.


I totally disagree. Apparently, you have never golfed.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

I totally disagree. Apparently, you have never golfed.

I totally disagree. Apparently, you've never spent your entire life with me (thank heavens for small favors).

[Stu from NYC]

No I haven't but I have a basic idea.

An ace is an ace. If you can only get 11 aces in 20 years, and I can get 11 aces in the same 20 years, on the same course, then if we're playing a game where an ace matters, we'd be evenly matched. And it wouldn't matter how long your drive is, whether you use irons or woods or sand wedges or whatever other fancy doodads you have. It wouldn't matter if you have 4 more muscles than I have, or if you're playing with an eyepatch covering one eye. If we are both capable of the exact same thing, no more than the other, then we are evenly matched.

If you are more capable than I am, then we're not evenly matched. You'd go be with a group of people who are more capable. I'd be with a group that is less capable. And that might include men. It might include transgenders. It might include men who identify as women but are still men, and women who identify as men but are still women. I don't care who it is. I don't care how tall, short, fat, thin they are, whether their boobs are bigger or smaller than mine, or whether they pee standing up or copping a squat. I care only that we are evenly matched in ability.

The average male pro can drive a lot further than an average female. There is that upper body strength you overlook.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The average male pro can drive a lot further than an average female. There is that upper body strength you overlook.

The average male who fits into the category of "people who can drive XXX yards" will be exactly equal to the average female who fits into the category of "people who can drive XXX yards."

There are female pro golfers who put some of those pro male golfers to shame. Being able to hit far doesn't mean being able to hit accurately.

[golfing eagles]

After you reject it and expend vast amounts of energy rejecting it, what have YOU really accomplished? Proven that you have a big e-peen and making all the denture-wearing old biddies in the world hot for your ace viagra skills? BFD

Yep, you got it. That's exactly what I plan:blahblahblah::blahblahblah::blahblahblah:

[Aces4]

The average male who fits into the category of "people who can drive XXX yards" will be exactly equal to the average female who fits into the category of "people who can drive XXX yards."

There are female pro golfers who put some of those pro male golfers to shame. Being able to hit far doesn't mean being able to hit accurately.

This discussion is example of an apple picker describing the surgical technique to repair a brain aneurysm. Point being this isn’t worth discussing.

[Aces4]

No I haven't but I have a basic idea.

An ace is an ace. If you can only get 11 aces in 20 years, and I can get 11 aces in the same 20 years, on the same course, then if we're playing a game where an ace matters, we'd be evenly matched. And it wouldn't matter how long your drive is, whether you use irons or woods or sand wedges or whatever other fancy doodads you have. It wouldn't matter if you have 4 more muscles than I have, or if you're playing with an eyepatch covering one eye. If we are both capable of the exact same thing, no more than the other, then we are evenly matched.

If you are more capable than I am, then we're not evenly matched. You'd go be with a group of people who are more capable. I'd be with a group that is less capable. And that might include men. It might include transgenders. It might include men who identify as women but are still men, and women who identify as men but are still women. I don't care who it is. I don't care how tall, short, fat, thin they are, whether their boobs are bigger or smaller than mine, or whether they pee standing up or copping a squat. I care only that we are evenly matched in ability.

What a convoluted train of thought. Who would ever play a sport with this theory, it would take a year to sort everything out before the sport could begin.

[Becca9800]

@OrangeBlossomBaby, give it up, you've lost this one.

[stanley]

No I haven't but I have a basic idea.

An ace is an ace. If you can only get 11 aces in 20 years, and I can get 11 aces in the same 20 years, on the same course, then if we're playing a game where an ace matters, we'd be evenly matched. And it wouldn't matter how long your drive is, whether you use irons or woods or sand wedges or whatever other fancy doodads you have. It wouldn't matter if you have 4 more muscles than I have, or if you're playing with an eyepatch covering one eye. If we are both capable of the exact same thing, no more than the other, then we are evenly matched.

If you are more capable than I am, then we're not evenly matched. You'd go be with a group of people who are more capable. I'd be with a group that is less capable. And that might include men. It might include transgenders. It might include men who identify as women but are still men, and women who identify as men but are still women. I don't care who it is. I don't care how tall, short, fat, thin they are, whether their boobs are bigger or smaller than mine, or whether they pee standing up or copping a squat. I care only that we are evenly matched in ability.

There's a saying, I think by W C Fields...............
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh-t."

[JMintzer]

And again - I refer you to the word "ability."

Ability doesn't equate with size.

A 13-year-old 100-pound 5'0" geeky girl with a 170iq is no less able to do things that require a high IQ than a 30-year-old 170-pound 5'10" guy who has a perfect 6-pack and can lift 240 pounds with one hand.

A short, slender, agile but not muscular amateur league golfer female who has 20 years experience playing and has 11 holes in one recorded in league play, is no less capable of being on a man's league than a heavier, taller, more muscular male with 20 years of experience playing with 11 holes in one recorded in league play.

A female bowler with a 235 average is no less capable of bowling a 300 than a male bowler with a 235 average.

Two unique cases does not prove your point...

Ability, in most sports most certainly does differ due to size and strength...

YOU were the one who insisted we separate people based on size ("like they do in boxing"), remember?

Oh, and 11 holes in one? Sheer luck. Any pro will tell you that. Yes, they can get it close to the pin, but putting it in the hole is luck... I've either hit the pin, or rolled it past by and inch countless times in my 50 years of playing golf. It's just never dropped in... yet...

[JMintzer]

There are female pro golfers who put some of those pro male golfers to shame. Being able to hit far doesn't mean being able to hit accurately.

That is absolute BS...

Michelle Wei tried to play on the men's tour... She was crushed...

Several others have played with men in exhibitions. Same result...

I'm not saying that women aren't good golfers. Some of them are great... Just like some men are great golfers...

But as a rule, they cannot compete with men due to physical limitations...

Anika Sorenstam tried it in 2003. Top female golfer in the world at the time. She missed the cut...

Annika Sorenstam plays at Colonial, 2003 - Golf Monthly (https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/the-game/annika-sorenstam-plays-colonial-2003-64383)

[bobdeb]

Is this the end of women's sports.

Is This the End of Women's Sports? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/navQkMFvmDc)

[JMintzer]

Is this the end of women's sports.

Is This the End of Women's Sports? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/navQkMFvmDc)

She echos exactly what I've been saying all along...

[Boomer]

She echos exactly what I've been saying all along...

Echoes seem to be your specialty.

Don't worry. Women will get this taken care of.

The answer is to get it done with common sense not cruelty.

Boomer (whose post-pandemic, newly embraced, silver hair and sassy new haircut seem to be making her even more of a smartazz than she used to be)

[Boomer]

I have no problem with blokes cutting off their wedding tackle and calling themselves Karen or whatever.
But.
If I were a ladies Pro Golfer I would raise holy heck to get them banned from competing in womens events.
It is not fair competition however you dress the situation (or him) up!
JMHO.


Two Bills,

I just want to thank you for adding to my vocabulary. I never heard of "wedding tackle" before -- but I know what it is when I see it.

A while back, I learned the phrase "popping your clogs" from you.

I love learning new phrases like this.

I watched Ted Lasso, a delightful tale, and learned some new expressions from it. One of them (what the fans kept calling him) I had to look up on Google. I have added that one to my vocabulary, too.

Sincerely thankful,
Boomer

[JMintzer]

Echoes seem to be your specialty.

Don't worry. Women will get this taken care of.

The answer is to get it done with common sense not cruelty.

Boomer (whose post-pandemic, newly embraced, silver hair and sassy new haircut seem to be making her even more of a smartazz than she used to be)

Do tell...

https://media.tenor.com/images/b9aa255a33687afc82d66feaedcd1fee/tenor.gif

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Do tell...

https://media.tenor.com/images/b9aa255a33687afc82d66feaedcd1fee/tenor.gif

Seems the solution is clear:

Ban all professional sports. Amateurs only, no pay.

Problem solved.

[stanley]

Seems the solution is clear:

Ban all professional sports. Amateurs only, no pay.

Problem solved.

And everyone gets a trophy
:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[Boomer]

She echos exactly what I've been saying all along...



Echoes seem to be your specialty.

Don't worry. Women will get this taken care of.

The answer is to get it done with common sense not cruelty.

Boomer (whose post-pandemic, newly embraced, silver hair and sassy new haircut seem to be making her even more of a smartazz than she used to be)



Do tell...

https://media.tenor.com/images/b9aa255a33687afc82d66feaedcd1fee/tenor.gif


Nope. Like K. T. Oslin wrote in the lyrics of one of my favorite country songs — “I’m too purdy to waste my time. . .”

Boomer

[Tom52]

Seems the solution is clear:

Ban all professional sports. Amateurs only, no pay.

Problem solved.

Not so sure the 12,000 professional athletes or the 150,000 employed in the spectator sports industry in USA would agree with your proposal. Seems so much less radical to keep men's and women's sports separated.

[JMintzer]

Seems the solution is clear:

Ban all professional sports. Amateurs only, no pay.

Problem solved.

Payments are not part of the problem...

The problem exists in HS and College sports, as well...

Did you bother to watch the video posted earlier? It was posted by a HS girl...

[JMintzer]

Not so sure the 12,000 professional athletes or the 150,000 employed in the spectator sports industry in USA would agree with your proposal. Seems so much less radical to keep men's and women's sports separated.

C'mon man! Logic and reason have no place in this discussion!

[John41]

And I'll say what I said the last time: if leagues were not divided by gender in the first place, this wouldn't be an issue at all. No more mens' teams and womens' teams. Just teams.

This could work if there were pre qualification rounds and say the top 100 male or female were in the Upper League and the next 100 male or female in the Junior League. I agree ability not gender or race should be the deciding factor. Unfortunately woke culture is about equal outcomes not ability. A book called The Bell Curve showed how nature distributes abilities and there is always some overlaps between groups. Let’s not arbitrarily confine the overlaps to a lesser place.

[Aces4]

Echoes seem to be your specialty.

Don't worry. Women will get this taken care of.

The answer is to get it done with common sense not cruelty.

Boomer (whose post-pandemic, newly embraced, silver hair and sassy new haircut seem to be making her even more of a smartazz than she used to be)


I don’t think athletic young women who are struggling to compete in sports which require intense training and sacrifice to earn recognition and perhaps, scholarships are very interested in this third person analogy. They are being cheated out of their just rewards and women need to stand up for them, not minimize the situation.

[Boomer]

I don’t think athletic young women who are struggling to compete in sports which require intense training and sacrifice to earn recognition and perhaps, scholarships are very interested in this third person analogy. They are being cheated out of their just rewards and women need to stand up for them, not minimize the situation.

Huh? Why did you quote me? I think we are on the same side on this one.

What I said was that this is about fairness -- not hatefulness. I think it will be a thread-the-needle, but smart, talented, competitive young women who could have a lot to lose can get this twisting of their rights under control if they decide to do so.

(Title IX did not show up until 1972 to give young women equal opportunities in sports. There would have been quite a few talented women my age who could have gone to college on a sports scholarship but were born a little too early and missed their chances.)

I realize my declared social acceptance of transgender people horrifies some around here who like to gear up to gang up, but my opinion on this is separate from that.

Boomer

[Byte1]

Kind of reminds me of the movie "The Ringer." Having a fraud take the glory from those in a group with a specific classification is much the same. A male with long hair competing with females is still a male competing with females, no mater what he looks like.
Change the classification of the sport? Why? Do you open a 100K race to those in a wheel chair, or do you set up a different classification race specific to only those in wheel chairs? Do you put dogs in a horse race? Do you put motorcycles in the Indy 500? Some folks just do not understand how to use common sense. There are female sports and there are male sports for a reason. If you wish to open similar sports to any gender or gender-less, then specify that. Quit arguing or competing over who is the most liberal and progressive thinker. You can be open minded and still use common sense. Common sense is NOT having transgender males compete in specifically female classified sports.

[shut the front door]

It's also happening in TV. There is a trans playing women's softball. Still has the male "junk" but is allowed to play as a woman. The rec dept allowed it.

[DeanFL]

.
.
CONGRATULATIONS Phyllis Mickelson on your PGA win yesterday!!!
.
.

[Aces4]

Huh? Why did you quote me? I think we are on the same side on this one.

What I said was that this is about fairness -- not hatefulness. I think it will be a thread-the-needle, but smart, talented, competitive young women

“who could have a lot to lose can get this twisting of their rights under control if they decide to do so.”

(Title IX did not show up until 1972 to give young women equal opportunities in sports. There would have been quite a few talented women my age who could have gone to college on a sports scholarship but were born a little too early and missed their chances.)

I realize my declared social acceptance of transgender people horrifies some around here who like to gear up to gang up, but my opinion on this is separate from that.

Boomer


With all do respect, this is exactly the problem. It appears to be dismissive and I emphasized in quotes your statement indicating that young women can wrestle with this urgent situation if they want and they will be sweet and kind while doing so.

ALL women should be standing up with these biological females to reverse this ridiculous decision that biological men can participate in women’s sports. This discussion isn’t about transgender acceptance, it’s about the shady overtaking of women’s athletics and rewards to which THEY are entitled. To me, the hairstyle remark at the end more or less stated this inequity isn’t all that important.

I don’t care who or how people mutilate their bodies, more power to them. But when a dismantling of a biological woman’s rights occurs, women ALL need to stand up and secure her rights.

[JMintzer]

Huh? Why did you quote me? I think we are on the same side on this one.

What I said was that this is about fairness -- not hatefulness.

Please show me where I wasn't talking about fairness or where I was being hateful.

Otherwise, why go after me?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Huh? Why did you quote me? I think we are on the same side on this one.

What I said was that this is about fairness -- not hatefulness. I think it will be a thread-the-needle, but smart, talented, competitive young women who could have a lot to lose can get this twisting of their rights under control if they decide to do so.

(Title IX did not show up until 1972 to give young women equal opportunities in sports. There would have been quite a few talented women my age who could have gone to college on a sports scholarship but were born a little too early and missed their chances.)

I realize my declared social acceptance of transgender people horrifies some around here who like to gear up to gang up, but my opinion on this is separate from that.

Boomer

Basically this. In the contest of equality vs. fear, fear seems to be winning the current race.

When it becomes a matter of "accept or reject, those are your only two options" you will see a very decisive dividing line over which many will refuse to cross.

Rather than come together and come up with solutions, they'd rather say "hell yeah" or "hell no."

Most of the ones screaming the loudest at the moment are the spectators, who don't ever buy tickets to games and don't pay the extra for the pay-per-view livestream of the event. They need to let the adults do the adulting, while they go play golf and relax and enjoy their retirement.

The sports world will work this out. Or they won't, and they'll lose viewers, patrons, athletes, when they're forced to take sides.

I personally don't care. I think sports pros should all get minimum wage. You don't need a college degree to hit a ball in a hole, afterall. It's not even customer service for crying out loud. Even in football - it's just a bunch of thugs bashing each other in the race to grab a ball that isn't even round and bring it to a line on the ground. And then when they retire because they spent the last 10 years having their brains bounced around inside their skulls, they discover they're not fit to do anything else for the rest of their lives.

If anyone should be staying home and collecting $300/week in PEUC benefits, it's professional ballplayers. Stay home and stop doing really stupid things to your body for money. Sheesh.

[Boomer]

With all do respect, this is exactly the problem. It appears to be dismissive and I emphasized in quotes your statement indicating that young women can wrestle with this urgent situation if they want and they will be sweet and kind while doing so.

ALL women should be standing up with these biological females to reverse this ridiculous decision that biological men can participate in women’s sports. This discussion isn’t about transgender acceptance, it’s about the shady overtaking of women’s athletics and rewards to which THEY are entitled. To me, the hairstyle remark at the end more or less stated this inequity isn’t all that important.

I don’t care who or how people mutilate their bodies, more power to them. But when a dismantling of a biological woman’s rights occurs, women ALL need to stand up and secure her rights.



I was planning this morning to give up on this place. (I have thought that before.) But, now, I feel like I want to answer your post about my post.

I see now why my hair remark appeared to be flippant. But that was not directed at the women whose rights are under threat. I was “talking back” to one poster re. the the word ‘echoes’ — that’s because I keep trying to stand up to what I see as an echo chamber in so many threads. I tend to sometimes couch my backtalk in an attempt to lighten my touch — cheeky though I can be. (I almost took out the hair part. I wish I had.)

This is the second time in two days, I have tried to explain my wording — and more and more, I find myself wanting to take a more direct hit against the hateful posts I see. But, then, I think — why bother? Your post though is written with reason and in your own words, not some cut and paste or random linking. I respect that.

I was recently told that if I did not like the tone of TOTV I should leave — and that poster wished me a snide “good luck” with finding a forum that meets “my standards.” I resisted responding by saying, “So — are you saying I am out of your league?”

I know a transgender person and I wish I could ask them for their opinion on this matter of sports competition. But I do not know them well so I will not venture into such a discussion.

I will say though that if I or my daughter or granddaughter were competitive athletes, I could get into this fight. When I say it is a thread-the-needle issue, I hope what I mean is understood.

The name-calling and self-righteous judgment and pure hatred should never be a part of this fight. But that bandwagon is the easy — and tragically popular one — to jump on.

This fight is going to take finesse and attorneys and doctors who can advise and explain the glaring issue objectively — not subjectively.

Sometimes I wish I had gone to law school after I retired — instead of wasting so much time posting on TOTV. :) By now, I could be “Pro Bono Boomer.”

Anyway, I can see your advocacy and I appreciate that. I apologize about my silly hair remark. I should have been more direct in the point I was trying to make.

Boomer

[JMintzer]

I was planning this morning to give up on this place. (I have thought that before.) But, now, I feel like I want to answer your post about my post.

I see now why my hair remark appeared to be flippant. But that was not directed at the women whose rights are under threat. I was “talking back” to one poster re. the the word ‘echoes’ — that’s because I keep trying to stand up to what I see as an echo chamber in so many threads. I tend to sometimes couch my backtalk in an attempt to lighten my touch — cheeky though I can be. (I almost took out the hair part. I wish I had.)

This is the second time in two days, I have tried to explain my wording — and more and more, I find myself wanting to take a more direct hit against the hateful posts I see. But, then, I think — why bother? Your post though is written with reason and in your own words, not some cut and paste or random linking. I respect that.

I was recently told that if I did not like the tone of TOTV I should leave — and that poster wished me a snide “good luck” with finding a forum that meets my standards.” I resisted responding by saying, “So — are you saying I am out of your league?”

I know a transgender person and I wish I could ask them for their opinion on this matter of sports competition. But I do not know them well so I will not venture into such a discussion.

I will say though that if I or my daughter or granddaughter were competitive athletes, I could get into this fight. When I say it is a thread-the-needle issue, I hope what I mean is understood.

The name-calling and self-righteous judgment and pure hatred should never be a part of this fight. But that bandwagon is the easy — and tragically popular one — to jump on.

This fight is going to take finesse and attorneys and doctors who can advise and explain the glaring issue objectively — not subjectively.

Sometimes I wish I had gone to law school after I retired — instead of wasting so much time posting on TOTV. :) By now, I could be “Pro Bono Boomer.”

Anyway, I can see your advocacy and I appreciate that. I apologize about my silly hair remark. I should have been more direct in the point I was trying to make.

Boomer

Since I'm the one to whom you made the "echoes" comment, please tell me, to what "echo chamber" do I belong?

Please be direct and to the point, so I won't misconstrue your "flippant" response...

I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath...

[Boomer]

Aces4,

I forgot to add in Post #191 — that one was my post responding to your post responding to my post responding to your post responding to my post. . .

Your use of the word ‘shady’ is the perfect word to describe what’s going on with this in-no-way fair competition invading women’s sports.

In this context ‘shady’ is not a word attacking people. It is a word perfectly describing this particular situation.

I may borrow that word if I am ever in a real-life conversation (or fight) re. this topic. I would argue what you are arguing and the word ‘shady’ says it all. Nothing hateful about it.

Thank you.

Boomer

[Aces4]

I was planning this morning to give up on this place. (I have thought that before.) But, now, I feel like I want to answer your post about my post.

I see now why my hair remark appeared to be flippant. But that was not directed at the women whose rights are under threat. I was “talking back” to one poster re. the the word ‘echoes’ — that’s because I keep trying to stand up to what I see as an echo chamber in so many threads. I tend to sometimes couch my backtalk in an attempt to lighten my touch — cheeky though I can be. (I almost took out the hair part. I wish I had.)

This is the second time in two days, I have tried to explain my wording — and more and more, I find myself wanting to take a more direct hit against the hateful posts I see. But, then, I think — why bother? Your post though is written with reason and in your own words, not some cut and paste or random linking. I respect that.

I was recently told that if I did not like the tone of TOTV I should leave — and that poster wished me a snide “good luck” with finding a forum that meets “my standards.” I resisted responding by saying, “So — are you saying I am out of your league?”

I know a transgender person and I wish I could ask them for their opinion on this matter of sports competition. But I do not know them well so I will not venture into such a discussion.

I will say though that if I or my daughter or granddaughter were competitive athletes, I could get into this fight. When I say it is a thread-the-needle issue, I hope what I mean is understood.

The name-calling and self-righteous judgment and pure hatred should never be a part of this fight. But that bandwagon is the easy — and tragically popular one — to jump on.

This fight is going to take finesse and attorneys and doctors who can advise and explain the glaring issue objectively — not subjectively.

Sometimes I wish I had gone to law school after I retired — instead of wasting so much time posting on TOTV. :) By now, I could be “Pro Bono Boomer.”

Anyway, I can see your advocacy and I appreciate that. I apologize about my silly hair remark. I should have been more direct in the point I was trying to make.

Boomer


I don’t know any transgenders, I have no fight with their choices. I believe this situation will take more than attorneys and doctors.

I believe it will require women standing up as a whole and demanding that sports competition rights be restored to biological women. Much like women’s suffrage and the sixties, it won’t happen unless there is a united, vocal front.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Does this person still have a ***** and testicles?

[bobdeb]

So, it's really not a transgender issue in so much as a 'fairness' issue?

That meaning, a woman transgendering to a male competing against men in athletics or sports is not an issue as they are not predisposed with a physical advantage.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

So, it's really not a transgender issue in so much as a 'fairness' issue?

That meaning, a woman transgendering to a male competing against men in athletics or sports is not an issue as they are not predisposed with a physical advantage.

Pretty much this. If the ability of 10 women cap out at 9, and the ability of 10 men cap out at 10, and the ability of a transgender male-to-female caps out at the same 10 that they did when they were male, then it would be an unfair advantage for those transgenders to be on the womens' teams.

I actually agree with that conclusion. I just disagree with the stigma and vitriol and fear of "other" I read here on this forum from people who pretend to be a) christians and b) residents of America's Friendliest Hometown.

[DeanFL]

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To "integrate/allow" Transgenders into Women sports - I believe that's the core question.

In my mind, this matter is simple. It comes down to FAIRNESS.

Is the decision FAIR to the Transgenders, or is it FAIR to the women?

I really do not see it any other way.

If the 'FAIR to Trans' integrates into girl/women sports - that group who supports primarily Trans will call it FAIR.

And If the 'FAIR to Women' does NOT allow the integration of Trans into their sports - THAT group supporting seperation will call THAT fair.

I'm not against "trans", but IMO there should be limitations. One of these must be NOT integrating into women sports. IMO that's FAIR.
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[Aces4]

So, it's really not a transgender issue in so much as a 'fairness' issue?

That meaning, a woman transgendering to a male competing against men in athletics or sports is not an issue as they are not predisposed with a physical advantage.

Not a fairness issue at all, it’s an equality issue. Female sports are for female competitors, not for men opting to act out as females. A transgender athelete, formerly Bruce Jenner, has stated he was against this type of competition. This straight from someone who knows the situation and the male gender capabilities.

If you want equality, admit transgender males to male sports and allow them their adopted persona.

[shut the front door]

Does this person still have a ***** and testicles?

Yes. The complete package is there and allowed to play women's softball in The Villages because the rec dept said that women's softball has to let him play.
Let that sink in. The slippery slope has hit home and The Villages is not going to do anything to stop it.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Yes. The complete package is there and allowed to play women's softball in The Villages because the rec dept said that women's softball has to let him play.
Let that sink in. The slippery slope has hit home and The Villages is not going to do anything to stop it.

What do the women in the league think about this?

Also, if a rule is "fair" to one set of people, and "unfair" to the other set of people, then it's an unfair rule.

Perhaps a transgender female-to-male league, and a transgender male-to-female league, would make things more fair. Otherwise, you're leaving out a previously-silent, but ever-present demography.

Maybe you shouldn't include them on the mens' or womens' teams. In fact, I don't think you should. But I also think there needs to be a solution that involves including them in sports, in some way.

[stanley]

What do the women in the league think about this?


Perhaps a transgender female-to-male league, and a transgender male-to-female league, would make things more fair. Otherwise, you're leaving out a previously-silent, but ever-present demography.


Right........the "have's' and the "have not's"

I'd be willing to bet you couldn't pull two transgender teams together here

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Right........the "have's' and the "have not's"

I'd be willing to bet you couldn't pull two transgender teams together here

This thread was about a golfer who is aiming for the LPGA. It's not about teams for the Villages.

[Aces4]

What do the women in the league think about this?

Also, if a rule is "fair" to one set of people, and "unfair" to the other set of people, then it's an unfair rule.

Perhaps a transgender female-to-male league, and a transgender male-to-female league, would make things more fair. Otherwise, you're leaving out a previously-silent, but ever-present demography.

Maybe you shouldn't include them on the mens' or womens' teams. In fact, I don't think you should. But I also think there needs to be a solution that involves including them in sports, in some way.

It’s so simple to solve it makes me smile. Biological females and males play on team which represents their biological sex. No performance enhancing hormones or raids allowed. They may wear whatever type uniform style they choose, feminine or masculine and present the face makeup, hair they choose also.

[JMintzer]

What do the women in the league think about this?

Also, if a rule is "fair" to one set of people, and "unfair" to the other set of people, then it's an unfair rule.

Perhaps a transgender female-to-male league, and a transgender male-to-female league, would make things more fair. Otherwise, you're leaving out a previously-silent, but ever-present demography.

Maybe you shouldn't include them on the mens' or womens' teams. In fact, I don't think you should. But I also think there needs to be a solution that involves including them in sports, in some way.

Who is going to sponsor or pay for these mythical leagues? How will they pay for themselves?

If it wasn't for the NBA subsidizing most of the WNBA, it wouldn't exist... They can't even draw flies to their games...

The WNBA players complain that they don't get paid as much as their male counterparts...

Why should they? The don't generate anywhere near the revenue...

Same with the LPGA...

Same with women's soccer...

The only pro sport that does is women's tennis, and they get the same prize money as men...

[DeanFL]

What do the women in the league think about this?

Also, if a rule is "fair" to one set of people, and "unfair" to the other set of people, then it's an unfair rule.


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I'm on my second cup of coffee, good night's sleep, brain in gear. But even after trying to understand this comment after reading it 4 times - still makes NO SENSE!
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[graciegirl]

Pretty much this. If the ability of 10 women cap out at 9, and the ability of 10 men cap out at 10, and the ability of a transgender male-to-female caps out at the same 10 that they did when they were male, then it would be an unfair advantage for those transgenders to be on the womens' teams.

I actually agree with that conclusion. I just disagree with the stigma and vitriol and fear of "other" I read here on this forum from people who pretend to be a) christians and b) residents of America's Friendliest Hometown.

No one ever talks about animal instinct when it comes to these matters, but I believe it plays into them and often is the reason for the emotion and the rejection and even the feelings sometimes of abhorrence...which is really too strong a word and will cause criticism. Most of us are wired to feel sexual attraction on some level to the opposite sex. That is how our species is preserved and that is very, very, very, strong. The opposite is often true and we may feel repugnance when the same sex presents in a way that is not feeling or acting like our instincts feel or act or respond. Sometimes these things have a great deal less to do with our brains than they do with our hormones and our deeply wired instincts. I think this is truer with males and I don't know why. I have never thought, felt or reacted like a male. I think that if a woman approached me sexually I would have negative feelings toward her. That also would have something to do with other issues that have been taught as well in our lives and our experiences. It would not FEEL comfortable.

[stanley]

This thread was about a golfer who is aiming for the LPGA. It's not about teams for the Villages.

You quoted this;

Yes. The complete package is there and allowed to play women's softball in The Villages because the rec dept said that women's softball has to let him play.
Let that sink in. The slippery slope has hit home and The Villages is not going to do anything to stop it.

That's why I posted this;

Right........the "have's' and the "have not's"

I'd be willing to bet you couldn't pull two transgender teams together here

Some people post so much they forget what they say previously.

[mike234]

the women's golf ratings, are lower than sinkhole. if I do happen to see them on golf channel, once in a blue moon, I think I am watching the Far East golf network. lets be honest. that tour is all about sex appeal. If he/she will improve ratings, the lpga should allow him/her and bruce Jenner as color man/woman..
that tour is in big trouble.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

It’s so simple to solve it makes me smile. Biological females and males play on team which represents their biological sex. No performance enhancing hormones or raids allowed. They may wear whatever type uniform style they choose, feminine or masculine and present the face makeup, hair they choose also.

The hormones are the deal-breaker. In order for a biological female to transform to a surgical male, she has to get hormones. That's what gives her facial hair, certain muscle definition that women don't have, the cessation of menstrual cycles and all the mood swings that go with them.

You're basically telling them that they have to continue to suppress and pretend that they are what their genitalia are forcing them to be. That's not a solution. That's where we are now.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

No one ever talks about animal instinct when it comes to these matters, but I believe it plays into them and often is the reason for the emotion and the rejection and even the feelings sometimes of abhorrence...which is really too strong a word and will cause criticism. Most of us are wired to feel sexual attraction on some level to the opposite sex. That is how our species is preserved and that is very, very, very, strong. The opposite is often true and we may feel repugnance when the same sex presents in a way that is not feeling or acting like our instincts feel or act or respond. Sometimes these things have a great deal less to do with our brains than they do with our hormones and our deeply wired instincts. I think this is truer with males and I don't know why. I have never thought, felt or reacted like a male. I think that if a woman approached me sexually I would have negative feelings toward her. That also would have something to do with other issues that have been taught as well in our lives and our experiences. It would not FEEL comfortable.

Gracie, this has *nothing* to do with sexual attraction.

This isn't about being gay, lesbian, bisexual. Zilch.

It has to do with gender identity. Being comfortable in your own skin, in your own body. There are transgender women who are lesbians, and transgender women who are hetero. There are also transgender women who are asexual - meaning, they aren't interested in sex at all, with anyone. They are women, because their emotions, thought-processes, mentality, how they perceive themselves, is that of a female not a male. Their biology doesn't match EVERYTHING ELSE about them. And so rather than change WHO they are inside, to match WHAT they are outside, they change the WHAT so they can remain the WHO.

It's very strange to me, and it makes me uncomfortable to consider that anyone would be that way, or have surgery to change their biology. But I'm not their judge, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. They know how they feel, and they're the ones who have to live in their skin. Just like some folks get botox and belly tucks and face-lifts and brazillian butt-lifts and cheek implants and dentures when they get older because they want to deny or defy aging and look as young as they feel.

Some people do the same thing with their sexual organs to match how they feel.

It's weird to me, but I accept it.

Sad that so many people are horrified by the concept that they can't accept that someone ELSE needs to present themselves in the way they feel, just because it doesn't fit with what THEY think that person should be. It's not up to anyone else to determine whether John needs to be Jane. It's up to John.

[JP]

People can do whatever they want to their bodies but that doesn't mean they can then compete in a sport that is not their true biologic gender. It's crazy and unfair to the "real" women. Hmmm...I wonder why you don't see women that are transformed into men competing in male sports. The answer is obvious. Any other argument is ridiculous.

[bobdeb]

IMO, there is nothing unusual or wrong with 'coed' softball teams in TV.

What is wrong is a transgender knocking off a woman from a team in a women's league. Otherwise, I have zero issue playing ball with a woman or anyone who identifies as a woman or a man.

And I play softball in both TV and outside of TV. Everyone is welcomed. Besides, most men have little or no issue playing ball with a woman.

The league I play in outside of TV is coed and there are a number of very talented women who play. A number of them better athletes than some of the men. We're talking former college softball players at times.

Great league.

[Bill14564]

People can do whatever they want to their bodies but that doesn't mean they can then compete in a sport that is not their true biologic gender. It's crazy and unfair to the "real" women. Hmmm...I wonder why you don't see women that are transformed into men competing in male sports. The answer is obvious. Any other argument is ridiculous.

As you wrote, the answer is obvious: you don't see trans men competing in male sports because you haven't looked.

[Aces4]

The hormones are the deal-breaker. In order for a biological female to transform to a surgical male, she has to get hormones. That's what gives her facial hair, certain muscle definition that women don't have, the cessation of menstrual cycles and all the mood swings that go with them.

You're basically telling them that they have to continue to suppress and pretend that they are what their genitalia are forcing them to be. That's not a solution. That's where we are now.

Of course, there is an answer. Have sports leagues for transgenders too. If they are allowed to compete in female sports, due to the male biology they should not be able to set records or take prizes/ scholarships. For that they would be required to compete against their own biological gender. That old adage, you can’t have your cake and eat it too applies here.

[bobdeb]

Yes, it was initially about LPGA golf, but this post has evolved.

I am not aware of any gender specific softball leagues in TV. Neighborhood softball on Saturdays is often coed.

TV 'men's' leagues are comprised of Divisions with teams within. There are a finite number of players on each team. Typically 12.
Managers traft players based on criteria such as ability and statistics. Other factors of a personal nature come into play. Such as friends, golf or poker buddies. Whatever.

The result is that not everyone who signs up gets on a team. They can substitute or elect to move down to a lower division that must accept them, for one season only.

It can be a cold experience for some players to be 'rejected'.

Point being does a physically gifted transgender qualify to knock of a woman in a 'women's' league? I'm sure it's all kumbaya until someone gets booted off.

[Aces4]

People can do whatever they want to their bodies but that doesn't mean they can then compete in a sport that is not their true biologic gender. It's crazy and unfair to the "real" women. Hmmm...I wonder why you don't see women that are transformed into men competing in male sports. The answer is obvious. Any other argument is ridiculous.

I’ve got answer, because transgender women to men cannot walk away with the prizes/records. Transgender men to women know how lucrative this can be for them. It needs to stop now and former biological women’s records reinstated.

[bobdeb]

Neighborhood or Saturday softball is open to everyone. Large rosters.

[Byte1]

Neighborhood or Saturday softball is open to everyone. Large rosters.

CoEd is not the same as gender specific sports. Why is that so hard to understand?

And for the one that insists that it is up to how a person "feels" that is only an opinion. Genders are not dictated solely by equipment. It is definitely not dictated on a whim or suggestion of what a person "feels" like in a given year. A person's chromosomes, bone structure, etc. is the REAL defining evidence of gender. Not what someone "feels" like. A person grows hair on his face and tells everyone that he is a dog. Does that make him a dog?

[Aces4]

Yes, it was initially about LPGA golf, but this post has evolved.

I am not aware of any gender specific softball leagues in TV. Neighborhood softball on Saturdays is often coed.

TV 'men's' leagues are comprised of Divisions with teams within. There are a finite number of players on each team. Typically 12.
Managers traft players based on criteria such as ability and statistics. Other factors of a personal nature come into play. Such as friends, golf or poker buddies. Whatever.

The result is that not everyone who signs up gets on a team. They can substitute or elect to move down to a lower division that must accept them, for one season only.

It can be a cold experience for some players to be 'rejected'.

Point being does a physically gifted transgender qualify to knock of a woman in a 'women's' league? I'm sure it's all kumbaya until someone gets booted off.



There may be ramifications with the local baseball leagues but think of the larger landscape which includes titles, record setting, scholarships, Olympic berths for women. Individual rights end when they infringe on other’s rights. Biological women who are heterosexual have no choice to compete with any one other than females. Transgenders have a choice.

[Two Bills]

Q....Why do we build snowmen, and not snow-women?

A....Snowballs!


:ohdear:

[bobdeb]

CoEd is not the same as gender specific sports. Why is that so hard to understand?

And for the one that insists that it is up to how a person "feels" that is only an opinion. Genders are not dictated solely by equipment. It is definitely not dictated on a whim or suggestion of what a person "feels" like in a given year. A person's chromosomes, bone structure, etc. is the REAL defining evidence of gender. Not what someone "feels" like. A person grows hair on his face and tells everyone that he is a dog. Does that make him a dog?

Perhaps we're not all as enlightened as others posting here...

[mike234]

Hailey went and had the sex change. had them removed. I give her credit for courage. bruce Jenner, that cross dresser, wouldn't have the guts to do that, as well as a few million other crossdressers.....bruce Jenner is part of the khardsashian tribe, which the media keeps ramming down our throats....all they want is for people to "look at me"

[Byte1]

Hailey went and had the sex change. had them removed. I give her credit for courage. bruce Jenner, that cross dresser, wouldn't have the guts to do that, as well as a few million other crossdressers.....bruce Jenner is part of the khardsashian tribe, which the media keeps ramming down our throats....all they want is for people to "look at me"

I believe Bruce DID have the operation, but I may be mistaken. Can you imagine a Triathlete like him competing in women's sports? I mean if he would have come out when he was younger and fitter.

[JMintzer]

As you wrote, the answer is obvious: you don't see trans men competing in male sports because you haven't looked.

Could you please cite some... Or even one...

[DeanFL]

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>another example of this issue>>>NEWS>


Chelsea Mitchell: Girl was 'fastest' runner in Connecticut until she was forced to compete with trans athletes
Chelsea Mitchell, in an op-ed in USA Today, said repeated losses to biologically male athletes chip 'away at women’s confidence' May 26, 2021

Once upon a time, former high school track athlete Chelsea Mitchell was the "fastest girl in Connecticut". But that changed when the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (CIAC) allowed transgender girls to compete in women's sports.

Mitchell has now said that competing against transgender female athletes who were born male was "devastating" to her confidence and opportunities. It urged her and three other athletes to file a case against CIAC last year. Writing an op-ed in USA Today, she pledged to continue her legal battle to ban biological males from girls’ sports.

"That’s a devastating experience. It tells me that I’m not good enough; that my body isn’t good enough; and that no matter how hard I work, I am unlikely to succeed, because I’m a woman," she added.

entire article>

Chelsea Mitchell: Girl was 'fastest' runner in Connecticut until she was forced to compete with trans athletes | MEAWW (https://meaww.com/chelsea-mitchell-fastest-girl-in-connecticut-running-against-trans-athletes-devastating-ciac-sued)
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[lkagele]

I don't see why not. Any sport can be divided by something OTHER than gender. If females have a lower capacity for brute strength, then you can have a "lower strength" league. Like you have bantam-weight and lightweight fighting matches. You wouldn't pit a heavyweight fighter with a bantam-weight fighter. Why not? They're all male aren't they? So why aren't they all fighting each other? Because it wouldn't be much of a fight. Because the fights are matched based on weight, not on gender.

But I'll bet if you chose to select teams based on ability, rather than gender, you'd come up with a decent mix of people. And sure - one set of teams might end up being all men. But it wouldn't be required that their gender be male. It would simply be the natural result of selecting by ability. They'd compete against each other NOT because they're men, but because they all fit within a certain standard of ability. And if it just so happens that you get a woman, or a transgender, or a hermaphrodite, or someone who claims no gender at all, who is able to bat home runs better than Hank Aaron, well then you should be grateful she/they/he is in your league and not be too concerned that their genitals look different from yours.

If you can do A, B, and C proficiently, then you are in THIS league.
If you can do A, B, and C only moderately, then you are in THAT league.
If you can do A, B, and C excellently, you belong in THAT OTHER league.

All are open to any gender, no gender, unsure gender, whatever gender. Gender ceases to matter.

This is wrong on so many levels. Biologically, there are 2 genders and like it or not, the male gender is stronger and faster. Your proposal ensures 99% + of all females will not be involved in sports. How long do you think a young female will actually pursue competitive sports when they are getting their butts kicked by the physically superior males? My guess is 99% would stop trying to participate against males by the 6th grade.

[DeanFL]

This is wrong on so many levels. Biologically, there are 2 genders and like it or not, the male gender is stronger and faster. Your proposal ensures 99% + of all females will not be involved in sports. How long do you think a young female will actually pursue competitive sports when they are getting their butts kicked by the physically superior males? My guess is 99% would stop trying to participate against males by the 6th grade.
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Yep. For ANYONE who may feel this is a 'stupid' topic please review my update post -#226. And ask yourself if SHE was a member of YOUR Family or Friends - would you really believe this is 'stupid' or inconsequential?

This truly angers me - how awful for our young kids to try to compete if these are the 'new' rules?
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[drducat]

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Yep. For ANYONE who may feel this is a 'stupid' topic please review my update post -#226. And ask yourself if SHE was a member of YOUR Family or Friends - would you really believe this is 'stupid' or inconsequential?

This truly angers me - how awful for our young kids to try to compete if these are the 'new' rules?
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Agree.....What ever happened to treatment for gender dysphoria.....needs to be enforced...this is out of control and ruins many lives...their own and others.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Agree.....What ever happened to treatment for gender dysphoria.....needs to be enforced...this is out of control and ruins many lives...their own and others.

Yes, because people whose biology differs from how they identify should not cause distress.

Although, I'm guessing you are totally misunderstanding what gender dysphoria is, and assigning it a meaning it doesn't have.

Gender dysphoria is not the phenomenon of feeling like you're one gender, while actually being another.

Gender dysphoria is being UPSET about feeling you're one gender, while actually being another.

Go ahead and google/bing/duck-duck-go it.

[fdpaq0580]

Very interesting topic.
To me, you are what your DNA says you are. Gender reassignment surgery does not change your true sex unless it changes your DNA. If your DNA is the same as before, then the surgery was in truth "body modification" surgery. People have body modification to try and change themselves to look like all kinds of things( cats, monkeys, even deer with horns or demons, etc.). Nose jobs, boob jobs, and more. Body modification to make themselves feel better about themselves.
Hormone injections may alter hair growth, implant rejection, but unless the DNA has been altered , the sex has not been changed.
IMHO, body modification nor mind/body altering injections (doping?) should not play a part in which league or team one is allowed to play. DNA should be the deciding factor.

[jimbomaybe]

The hormones are the deal-breaker. In order for a biological female to transform to a surgical male, she has to get hormones. That's what gives her facial hair, certain muscle definition that women don't have, the cessation of menstrual cycles and all the mood swings that go with them.

You're basically telling them that they have to continue to suppress and pretend that they are what their genitalia are forcing them to be. That's not a solution. That's where we are now. their genetic endowment is who they are, a maladjustment tells them something different, ones genetics male or female make for profound pervasive differences across the board how far do we go to make people feel good about a maladjustment ?

[jimjamuser]

This is wrong on so many levels. Biologically, there are 2 genders and like it or not, the male gender is stronger and faster. Your proposal ensures 99% + of all females will not be involved in sports. How long do you think a young female will actually pursue competitive sports when they are getting their butts kicked by the physically superior males? My guess is 99% would stop trying to participate against males by the 6th grade.
The 1st poster said why NOT try 3 levels of co-ed leagues? It works that way in tennis and softball here in TV Land.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

The 1st poster said why NOT try 3 levels of co-ed leagues? It works that way in tennis and softball here in TV Land.

Here's why not: because it might actually work, and that would diminish some peoples' fears and loathing of anything that doesn't fit their narrow-minded criteria of "normal." And we can't have that in the Friendliest Hometown in America.

[jimjamuser]

Gracie, this has *nothing* to do with sexual attraction.

This isn't about being gay, lesbian, bisexual. Zilch.

It has to do with gender identity. Being comfortable in your own skin, in your own body. There are transgender women who are lesbians, and transgender women who are hetero. There are also transgender women who are asexual - meaning, they aren't interested in sex at all, with anyone. They are women, because their emotions, thought-processes, mentality, how they perceive themselves, is that of a female not a male. Their biology doesn't match EVERYTHING ELSE about them. And so rather than change WHO they are inside, to match WHAT they are outside, they change the WHAT so they can remain the WHO.

It's very strange to me, and it makes me uncomfortable to consider that anyone would be that way, or have surgery to change their biology. But I'm not their judge, it's not my place to tell them they're wrong. They know how they feel, and they're the ones who have to live in their skin. Just like some folks get botox and belly tucks and face-lifts and brazillian butt-lifts and cheek implants and dentures when they get older because they want to deny or defy aging and look as young as they feel.

Some people do the same thing with their sexual organs to match how they feel.

It's weird to me, but I accept it.

Sad that so many people are horrified by the concept that they can't accept that someone ELSE needs to present themselves in the way they feel, just because it doesn't fit with what THEY think that person should be. It's not up to anyone else to determine whether John needs to be Jane. It's up to John.
I feel that John can be Jane if they want to. I would just like to see it happen ONLY after some (?) certain age - because it requires a MATURE decision.

[JMintzer]

Here's why not: because it might actually work, and that would diminish some peoples' fears and loathing of anything that doesn't fit their narrow-minded criteria of "normal." And we can't have that in the Friendliest Hometown in America.

Real "friendly" response you got there...

[JMintzer]

The 1st poster said why NOT try 3 levels of co-ed leagues? It works that way in tennis and softball here in TV Land.

Oh, I don't know...

Maybe because we're not discussing recreational co-ed leagues?

[jimjamuser]

Yes, it was initially about LPGA golf, but this post has evolved.

I am not aware of any gender specific softball leagues in TV. Neighborhood softball on Saturdays is often coed.

TV 'men's' leagues are comprised of Divisions with teams within. There are a finite number of players on each team. Typically 12.
Managers traft players based on criteria such as ability and statistics. Other factors of a personal nature come into play. Such as friends, golf or poker buddies. Whatever.

The result is that not everyone who signs up gets on a team. They can substitute or elect to move down to a lower division that must accept them, for one season only.

It can be a cold experience for some players to be 'rejected'.

Point being does a physically gifted transgender qualify to knock of a woman in a 'women's' league? I'm sure it's all kumbaya until someone gets booted off.
I have experienced just THAT cold experience in softball. A lot of politics and "good buddy stuff" among managers.