Cost of Tesla ownership, real time experience

[Polarlys]

I've been a strong advocate of the electric auto's for awhile but I'm been mostly curious about the Tesla and the advanced they have made. Still, I wonder about actual cost of ownership now that there are more and more on the road. In the early days of availability I think Tesla provided some rapid charging stations free of charge but I'm thinking that that was unsustainable. I've been wondering just how things are managed these days and how much it really costs to own and travel in one.

[Ben Franklin]

A friend of mine purchased a Tesla in MN and drove down here. He had to stop about every 300 miles and recharge, which took, on average 30 minutes. They had no problem finding charging stations.

Several years ago we spent some time in Colorado (2018, I believe) and all the Walgreens had chargers.

My friend sent me this video. Maybe it will help you.

How Much Does It Really Cost To Own A Tesla Model 3 Over Time? (https://insideevs.com/features/390035/video-tesla-model-3-real-world-ownership-cost/)

[JMintzer]

A friend of mine purchased a Tesla in MN and drove down here. He had to stop about every 300 miles and recharge, which took, on average 30 minutes. They had no problem finding charging stations.

Several years ago we spent some time in Colorado (2018, I believe) and all the Walgreens had chargers.

My friend sent me this video. Maybe it will help you.

How Much Does It Really Cost To Own A Tesla Model 3 Over Time? (https://insideevs.com/features/390035/video-tesla-model-3-real-world-ownership-cost/)

In what universe can you charge a Tesla in "30 minutes"?

https://evcharging.enelx.com/images/PR/Articles/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla-table.jpg

[JMintzer]

A friend of mine purchased a Tesla in MN and drove down here. He had to stop about every 300 miles and recharge, which took, on average 30 minutes. They had no problem finding charging stations.

Several years ago we spent some time in Colorado (2018, I believe) and all the Walgreens had chargers.

My friend sent me this video. Maybe it will help you.

How Much Does It Really Cost To Own A Tesla Model 3 Over Time? (https://insideevs.com/features/390035/video-tesla-model-3-real-world-ownership-cost/)

If you can find a Tesla 220V charging station, you can get from 40% to 80% charge in 1 hour, but a full charge takes 3 hours...

"For most Teslas, it only takes about an hour to charge from 40% to 80% on a 220V system, but another two hours to go from 80% to 100%."

[Ben Franklin]

If you can find a Tesla 220V charging station, you can get from 40% to 80% charge in 1 hour, but a full charge takes 3 hours...

"For most Teslas, it only takes about an hour to charge from 40% to 80% on a 220V system, but another two hours to go from 80% to 100%."

Well it took them 3 days to get here. If they had to wait 8 hours a charge, it would have taken them much longer. Maybe you should buy one and then tell us how long it took.

Tesla Superchargers are super fast
Tesla has their own network of public vehicle chargers known as Superchargers. These 480-volt vehicle charging stations are designed to charge Teslas with incredible speed.

Superchargers recharge at different rates for each of the Tesla models:

Tesla model Miles of range per 15 minutes of Supercharging
Model 3 175 miles
Model S 163 miles
Model X 142 miles
Model Y 158 miles.

This shows a half an hour would give a full charge

[JMintzer]

A friend of mine purchased a Tesla in MN and drove down here. He had to stop about every 300 miles and recharge, which took, on average 30 minutes. They had no problem finding charging stations.

Several years ago we spent some time in Colorado (2018, I believe) and all the Walgreens had chargers.

My friend sent me this video. Maybe it will help you.

How Much Does It Really Cost To Own A Tesla Model 3 Over Time? (https://insideevs.com/features/390035/video-tesla-model-3-real-world-ownership-cost/)

That's about 1500 miles +/-. that's a minimum of 5 stops (probably 6), at a minimum of 30 minutes a pop? You're adding 3-4 hours to the trip (assuming you don't have to deviate from your route to find a charging station)...

No thanks...

[tuccillo]

Not exactly. The charging rate for the Tesla Superchargers is non-linear; the lower the charge level the faster the charging. You can charge to about 80% very quickly but the last 20% will take considerably longer. Apparently, a typical scenario involves about 20 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger to go from about 20% to about 80% every 2 hours or so, depending on where you are. You will spend less time charging if you only go to about 80% but stop more frequently at a Tesla Supercharger. Not all Tesla Supercharger are the same; some will charge faster than others.

Well it took them 3 days to get here. If they had to wait 8 hours a charge, it would have taken them much longer. Maybe you should buy one and then tell us how long it took.

Tesla Superchargers are super fast
Tesla has their own network of public vehicle chargers known as Superchargers. These 480-volt vehicle charging stations are designed to charge Teslas with incredible speed.

Superchargers recharge at different rates for each of the Tesla models:

Tesla model Miles of range per 15 minutes of Supercharging
Model 3 175 miles
Model S 163 miles
Model X 142 miles
Model Y 158 miles.

This shows a half an hour would give a full charge

[Number 10 GI]

When I can recharge the battery on an electric vehicle as quickly as I can fill a gas tank, then I'll consider an electric car. Until then, NOPE!

[retiredguy123]

I have heard enough to decide that I don't want to buy an electric car. But, for me, the biggest issue is that, even with a fast charging time, there is no guarantee that you won't need to wait in line to plug in.

[oldtimes]

I have heard enough to decide that I don't want to buy an electric car. But, for me, the biggest issue is that, even with a fast charging time, there is no guarantee that you won't need to wait in line to plug in.

And if there is a problem with the electrical grid or even just a power failure you are SOL. A least gas can be delivered to you if you run out in the middle of the road. Imagine being stuck in a bad traffic jam and running out of power.

[tuccillo]

For most owners, the majority of their driving is local and they are charging at home at night so charging time is not an issue. For that scenario, they are never spending time at a Tesla Supercharger station but you are spending time at gas stations for a gas car. For road trips, you will spend more time charging than it would take to fill the tank of a gas car. How often are you on road trips that are longer than the range of the car so it would need charging?

When I can recharge the battery on an electric vehicle as quickly as I can fill a gas tank, then I'll consider an electric car. Until then, NOPE!

[imalowany]

Well it took them 3 days to get here. If they had to wait 8 hours a charge, it would have taken them much longer. Maybe you should buy one and then tell us how long it took.

Tesla Superchargers are super fast
Tesla has their own network of public vehicle chargers known as Superchargers. These 480-volt vehicle charging stations are designed to charge Teslas with incredible speed.

Superchargers recharge at different rates for each of the Tesla models:

Tesla model Miles of range per 15 minutes of Supercharging
Model 3 175 miles
Model S 163 miles
Model X 142 miles
Model Y 158 miles.

This shows a half an hour would give a full charge

I just drove down from Atlanta a couple of weeks ago. What would normally take 6 hours in my gas Audi, took about an extra 40 minutes as we stopped in Tifton GA to supercharge. It was a V3 and took about 35 minutes. I love my Tesla - it will do 300 miles which is fine that’s about what my bladder or legs can take before needing a rest - and what’s the hurry? It is a stress less drive also as the car basically drives itself. To get gas it about 10 minutes so its an extra 30 minutes at most.

We stayed in the Hampton inn which had a Tesla charger and loved that I plug it in overnight and have a full charge in the morning - no extra cost.

[tuccillo]

If there is a problem with the electrical grid or even just a power failure then you are still SOL with a gas car since you can't pump gas without power.

And if there is a problem with the electrical grid or even just a power failure you are SOL. A least gas can be delivered to you if you run out in the middle of the road. Imagine being stuck in a bad traffic jam and running out of power.

[Number 10 GI]

For most owners, they are doing the majority of the their charging at home at night so charging time is not an issue. For that scenario, they are never spending time at a Tesla Supercharger station but you are spending time at gas stations for a gas car. For road trips, you will spend more time charging than it would take to fill the tank of a gas car. How often are you on road trips that are longer than the range of the car so it would need charging?

If it hadn't been for Covid we would have been on a lot of trips that year. I don't need the hassle of waiting an indeterminate amount of time to charge a battery on a long trip.

[Number 10 GI]

Another reason I don't want an electric car is that most of them are as ugly as a fat plumber's butt crack.

[oldtimes]

If there is a problem with the electrical grips or even just a power failure then you are still SOL with a gas car since you can't pump gas without power.


“As it turns out, gas stations that pump while the power is out rely entirely on transfer switches and generators. In the past, gas stations weren’t required to have generators or an alternative way to power their gas pumping if the electricity went out— so during a blackout, residents would be left without power and gasoline.”

[tuccillo]

Gas stations are apparently required to have transfer switches that would allow the possibility of an alternate power source in case of an extended power outage. There is no requirement to have actual back-up generators on site. There are, however, some stations with back-up generators. I believe Tesla is starting to roll out Supercharger stations with solar panels and battery storage so they can presumably operate without grid power for some period of time.

“As it turns out, gas stations that pump while the power is out rely entirely on transfer switches and generators. In the past, gas stations weren’t required to have generators or an alternative way to power their gas pumping if the electricity went out— so during a blackout, residents would be left without power and gasoline.”

[Number 10 GI]

When is the government going to start charging electric vehicles road tax?

[imalowany]

I have heard enough to decide that I don't want to buy an electric car. But, for me, the biggest issue is that, even with a fast charging time, there is no guarantee that you won't need to wait in line to plug in.

I’ve have had my Tesla over 2 years now and never had to wait for a supercharger. Now in truth, I hardly ever needed to use one as i charge at home and am alway at least 260 miles charged when I wake up and on days I plan on taking a long trip, i fill up the battery to 330 - that’s when i might need to use the supercharger. I also try to stay at hotels that have them so i can charge overnight.

[tuccillo]

There are a number of states that do that already. I believe about half do. It manifests itself as an additional annual fee to replace the gas tax that isn't being paid.

When is the government going to start charging electric vehicles road tax?

[imalowany]

For most owners, the majority of their driving is local and they are charging at home at night so charging time is not an issue. For that scenario, they are never spending time at a Tesla Supercharger station but you are spending time at gas stations for a gas car. For road trips, you will spend more time charging than it would take to fill the tank of a gas car. How often are you on road trips that are longer than the range of the car so it would need charging?

Also if you plan it right, with around 300 miles or so you can stop for a bathroom break / eat something…. I have never had an issue with the extra 30 minutes and don’t forget you also get all the other benefits of an electric car - better performance and less maintenance cost like oil changes

[tophcfa]

The biggest cost of driving one of those things is that you aren’t driving a real vehicle. Let me know when they make one with 4WD, lots of ground clearance, can tow a camper, can be charged as fast as filling a gas tank, and doesn’t cost more than an internal combustion engine, and then I might consider one. I prefer to drive a real vehicle, not a computer on wheels.

[tuccillo]

That's funny. Your so-called "real vehicle" is a computer on wheels. It probably has 30, or more, embedded microprocessors.


The biggest cost of driving one of those things is that you aren’t driving a real vehicle. Let me know when they make one with 4WD, lots of ground clearance, can tow a camper, can be charged as fast as filling a gas tank, and doesn’t cost more than an internal combustion engine, and then I might consider one. I prefer to drive a real vehicle, not a computer on wheels.

[JMintzer]

How often are you on road trips that are longer than the range of the car so it would need charging?

So far this year? 8 times...

[JMintzer]

When is the government going to start charging electric vehicles road tax?

When is the government going to stop subsidizing 1/2 the cost of EVs?

Talk about tax breaks for the wealthy...

[DAVES]

I've been a strong advocate of the electric auto's for awhile but I'm been mostly curious about the Tesla and the advanced they have made. Still, I wonder about actual cost of ownership now that there are more and more on the road. In the early days of availability I think Tesla provided some rapid charging stations free of charge but I'm thinking that that was unsustainable. I've been wondering just how things are managed these days and how much it really costs to own and travel in one.

How much it really cost to own and travel in one. Few people could honestly answer that for a Toyota Corolla, a Chevy or a Ford or whatever.

Nothing is perfect. First of all electric cars are subsidized by the tax man. An interesting thing, while it has not been shown on a gas pump for years, roughly 1/3 of the cost of a gallon of gasoline is tax. That tax is supposed to support our road system.
Fair is an impossible to define concept but electric cars are not paying for the roads to the same degree that gasoline cars are.

Just like an electric golf cart or the starter battery in a gasoline car batteries do not last forever. They are good for 5-6 years. In an electric car a new set of batteries is a huge expense-the reason why they depreciate quite a bit. Fast charging actually shortens the battery life-number of charge discharge cycles. Just like an electric golf cart, for snow birds, the battery needs to be charged even when they are not here-stand by losses and the batteries continue to age even though they are not using it.

We tend in all things to demand perfect. In the real world it does not exist.

[tuccillo]

1/2 the cost? Do you have a reference for that?

When is the government going to stop subsidizing 1/2 the cost of EVs?

Talk about tax breaks for the wealthy...

[DAVES]

If you can find a Tesla 220V charging station, you can get from 40% to 80% charge in 1 hour, but a full charge takes 3 hours...

"For most Teslas, it only takes about an hour to charge from 40% to 80% on a 220V system, but another two hours to go from 80% to 100%."

Not sure all will understand your last line. I doubt a Tesler or any device running on rechargeable batteries allows you to completely drain the batteries. Doing that will destroy the batteries. A battery low on charge is like a sponge it quickly absorbs the electricity, the charge. The last part of the charge the charger is facing more resistance and the charging rate falls off. If, the charger is powerful enough as in a quick charge, the battery is damaged by the heat.

All is a compromise. If, they advertise a 300 mile range on a charge, that is not driving into a wind, running AC or heat etc. At an 80% charge you would get roughly, very roughly 200 miles. You would need to find a charger every 200 miles and something to do for two hours every 200 miles

[tuccillo]

No. In Florida, the gas tax is 34 cents per gallon. That is not 1/3 of the cost.

In reality, Teslas retain their value very well.

Tesla Model 3 Bucks Trend of Electric Vehicles Depreciating Fast (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33935142/tesla-model-3-depreciate-electric-car/)

Early Nissan Leafs, not so much, because of a lack of a well engineered battery temperature control system.

Tesla battery packs are warrantied for 70% of the original range for 8 years or 100K miles. Teslas with 300K miles are not that unusual.

How much it really cost to own and travel in one. Few people could honestly answer that for a Toyota Corolla, a Chevy or a Ford or whatever.

Nothing is perfect. First of all electric cars are subsidized by the tax man. An interesting thing, while it has not been shown on a gas pump for years, roughly 1/3 of the cost of a gallon of gasoline is tax. That tax is supposed to support our road system.
Fair is an impossible to define concept but electric cars are not paying for the roads to the same degree that gasoline cars are.

Just like an electric golf cart or the starter battery in a gasoline car batteries do not last forever. They are good for 5-6 years. In an electric car a new set of batteries is a huge expense-the reason why they depreciate quite a bit. Fast charging actually shortens the battery life-number of charge discharge cycles. Just like an electric golf cart, for snow birds, the battery needs to be charged even when they are not here-stand by losses and the batteries continue to age even though they are not using it.

We tend in all things to demand perfect. In the real world it does not exist.

[tuccillo]

No, not 2 hours. Read post #7.

Not sure all will understand your last line. I doubt a Tesler or any device running on rechargeable batteries allows you to completely drain the batteries. Doing that will destroy the batteries. A battery low on charge is like a sponge it quickly absorbs the electricity, the charge. The last part of the charge the charger is facing more resistance and the charging rate falls off. If, the charger is powerful enough as in a quick charge, the battery is damaged by the heat.

All is a compromise. If, they advertise a 300 mile range on a charge, that is not driving into a wind, running AC or heat etc. At an 80% charge you would get roughly, very roughly 200 miles. You would need to find a charger every 200 miles and something to do for two hours every 200 miles

[tuccillo]

You are probably not a candidate for an electric vehicle unless you are willing to take 20 minute recharging breaks every couple of hours.

So far this year? 8 times...

[Ben Franklin]

When is the government going to stop subsidizing 1/2 the cost of EVs?

Talk about tax breaks for the wealthy...

As soon as they stop subsidizing the oil and gas industry that's been going on for eons. A conservative estimate from Oil Change International puts the U.S. total at around $20.5 billion annually, including $14.7 billion in federal subsidies and $5.8 billion in state-level incentives.

[MSchad]

Saw a question posed the other day: As electric vehicle sales/use increases, how are all those batteries safely disposed of when they all start going bad?

[Ben Franklin]

Saw a question posed the other day: As electric vehicle sales/use increases, how are all those batteries safely disposed of when they all start going bad?

Probably the same thing they did with the thousands of millions and millions and millions of batteries from old cars, until they will come up with a solution.

[JMintzer]

1/2 the cost? Do you have a reference for that?

My bad, it's "only" 1/3 of the cost (on the lower priced EVs)...

U.S. Senate panel advances EV tax credit of up to $12,500 (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-senate-panel-advances-ev-025132614.html)

And that's just to the consumer. It doesn't count the tax breaks to the manufacturer...

[tuccillo]

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)

Who Knew? A Car Battery Is the World's Most Recycled Product (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1044372_who-knew-a-car-battery-is-the-worlds-most-recycled-product)

The same issue exists for all of the lead-acid batteries from gas cars. Recycling of lead-acid batteries is a well developed process. Close to 100% of a lead-acid battery is recycled. I think it is safe to assume that the infrastructure to recycle the lithium-ion batteries in EVs (and subsequent other battery technologies) will scale up as sales scale up.


Saw a question posed the other day: As electric vehicle sales/use increases, how are all those batteries safely disposed of when they all start going bad?

[tuccillo]

That is possibly in the future but doesn't exist right now. Your post indicated that you believe that they are currently being subsidized. Also, the $12,500 proposal is only for cars made in union shops so it would exclude the largest EV maker in the US: Tesla. The proposal is for $10,000 for Teslas - not anywhere near 1/2 the cost. Again, possibly in the future. Currently, there are no Federal tax credits for cars from Tesla and GM. Please provide a reference to show that 1/2 is subsidized currently.

U.S. Senate panel advances EV tax credit of up to $12,500 (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-senate-panel-advances-ev-025132614.html)

And that's just to the consumer. It doesn't count the tax breaks to the manufacturer...

[JMintzer]

Sustainability | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/support/sustainability-recycling)

Who Knew? A Car Battery Is the World's Most Recycled Product (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1044372_who-knew-a-car-battery-is-the-worlds-most-recycled-product)

The same issue exists for all of the lead-acid batteries from gas cars. Recycling of lead-acid batteries is a well developed process. Close to 100% of a lead-acid battery is recycled. I think it is safe to assume that the infrastructure to recycle the lithium-ion batteries in EVs (and subsequent other battery technologies) will scale up as sales scale up.

You're making major assumptions...

[tuccillo]

Such as ...

From Tesla:

Any battery that is no longer meeting a customer’s needs can be serviced by Tesla at one of our service centers around the world. None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.


You're making major assumptions...

[tuccillo]

Again, possibly in the future. Federal tax credit of $7500 currently exists for some manufacturers; not Tesla and GM. That is hardly 1/3 the cost. Most EVs sold today have prices starting around $50K.

My bad, it's "only" 1/3 of the cost (on the lower priced EVs)...

U.S. Senate panel advances EV tax credit of up to $12,500 (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-senate-panel-advances-ev-025132614.html)

And that's just to the consumer. It doesn't count the tax breaks to the manufacturer...

[JMintzer]

Such as ...

From Tesla:

Any battery that is no longer meeting a customer’s needs can be serviced by Tesla at one of our service centers around the world. None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfilling, and 100% are recycled.

Not true. My their own admission, they freeze much of the components and then crush them into "fluff" (whatever the hell that means), which is dumped into landfills. They -say- it is safe...

What Does Tesla Do With Old Batteries? (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/what-does-tesla-do-with-old-batteries/)

[JMintzer]

Again, possibly in the future. Federal tax credit of $7500 currently exists for some manufacturers; not Tesla and GM. That is hardly 1/3 the cost. Most EVs sold today have prices starting around $50K.

Many are readily available for well under $40K...

Access Denied (https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/)

[tuccillo]

Here is what they actually do.

The only material from these batteries that actually goes into a landfill is the modules. These parts are frozen, shredded, and crushed into harmless fluff that can’t contaminate the soil.

Not true. My their own admission, they freeze much of the components and then crush them into "fluff" (whatever the hell that means), which is dumped into landfills. They -say- it is safe...

What Does Tesla Do With Old Batteries? (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/what-does-tesla-do-with-old-batteries/)

[tuccillo]

Yes, some are. Low volume sales. Most, as I already stated, are around $50K. Tesla has most of the sales. Most Teslas start around $50K.

Many are readily available for well under $40K...

Access Denied (https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/)

[retiredguy123]

I'll consider buying an electric vehicle when the Government stops subsidizing them and when more than 50 percent of new vehicle sales are electric. Until then, I won't buy one.

[TCNY61]

Saw a question posed the other day: As electric vehicle sales/use increases, how are all those batteries safely disposed of when they all start going bad?

What are all the people without garages going to do like people in apartments?

[Toymeister]

...

[Brad-tv]

All the manufacturers are going completely electric by 2030-2035 and internal combustible engines will stop coming to market eventually. This is the way of the future and with this new green deal being slipped through Congress now as a “infrastructure plan” more manufacturers are motivated to go full electric.
The price of gas is quickly rising and will eventually be double or triple the price per gallon before you know it. I’ve seen this debate before your always going to have the anti electric car folks and then there’s the people who love electric cars .

Go test drive a Tesla and see for yourself it’s the most amazing car I have ever driven . It’s not for everyone but I can definitely see why so many people own them and love them. In 9 months I used a super charger once for 20 min other wise cost about $5 to top off the batteries at home. If you like fast cars these are rocket ships. The Tesla will leave just about any other production car in the dust.
Maintenance wise just add windshield washer fluid once in a while!!!

[BostonRich]

In reality, Teslas retain their value very well.

Early Nissan Leafs, not so much, because of a lack of a well engineered battery temperature control system.

And they look like a frog!

Went to Disney the other day. There were five charging stations and all were occupied. What if you are the sixth Tesla?

[BostonRich]

What are all the people without garages going to do like people in apartments?

They will probably eventually have charging stations on the streets but seems like an easy target for vandalism or mischief (i.e. unplugging).

[UpNorth]

EV's would make a great second car for most people, who only have to drive 20 - 30 miles per day. Plug it in back home and let it charge overnight. Probably a good choice for me when my 37 MPG Nissan (my second car) quits. However, for long trips, gas is still the way to go. There is battery technology in the near future that may change my mind.

[Brad-tv]

Look like a Frog?? Haha
A frog with 4 wheels?

Tesla not only tells you where the next charging stations are and how far until you get there but it tells you how many stalls are open at that time.
Btw when the pipeline hack just hit and gas was running dry it was a good time to have a electric vehicle!!

[jdulej]

All the manufacturers are going completely electric by 2030-2035 and internal combustible engines will stop coming to market eventually. This is the way of the future and with this new green deal being slipped through Congress now as a “infrastructure plan” more manufacturers are motivated to go full electric.
The price of gas is quickly rising and will eventually be double or triple the price per gallon before you know it. I’ve seen this debate before your always going to have the anti electric car folks and then there’s the people who love electric cars .

Go test drive a Tesla and see for yourself it’s the most amazing car I have ever driven . It’s not for everyone but I can definitely see why so many people own them and love them. In 9 months I used a super charger once for 20 min other wise cost about $5 to top off the batteries at home. If you like fast cars these are rocket ships. The Tesla will leave just about any other production car in the dust.
Maintenance wise just add windshield washer fluid once in a while!!!

I remember a Top Gear episode where an Audi R8 and a Tesla (I think a model X) went at it. It was kind of sad to watch that beautiful Audi get left in the dust. A sign of the future I think.

[JP]

Look like a Frog?? Haha
A frog with 4 wheels?

Tesla not only tells you where the next charging stations are and how far until you get there but it tells you how many stalls are open at that time.
Btw when the pipeline hack just hit and gas was running dry it was a good time to have a electric vehicle!!

What happens when the power grid goes down?

[JMintzer]

Here is what they actually do.

The only material from these batteries that actually goes into a landfill is the modules. These parts are frozen, shredded, and crushed into harmless fluff that can’t contaminate the soil.

Where does the "fluff" (that theoretically can't contaminate the soil) go?

[JMintzer]

All the manufacturers are going completely electric by 2030-2035 and internal combustible engines will stop coming to market eventually. This is the way of the future and with this new green deal being slipped through Congress now as a “infrastructure plan” more manufacturers are motivated to go full electric.
The price of gas is quickly rising and will eventually be double or triple the price per gallon before you know it. I’ve seen this debate before your always going to have the anti electric car folks and then there’s the people who love electric cars .

Go test drive a Tesla and see for yourself it’s the most amazing car I have ever driven . It’s not for everyone but I can definitely see why so many people own them and love them. In 9 months I used a super charger once for 20 min other wise cost about $5 to top off the batteries at home. If you like fast cars these are rocket ships. The Tesla will leave just about any other production car in the dust.
Maintenance wise just add windshield washer fluid once in a while!!!

Where will all the electricity to charge all of these batteries come from?

[JMintzer]

Again, possibly in the future. Federal tax credit of $7500 currently exists for some manufacturers; not Tesla and GM. That is hardly 1/3 the cost. Most EVs sold today have prices starting around $50K.

So, in your scenario, it's a tax break for the wealthy...

[JMintzer]

Look like a Frog?? Haha
A frog with 4 wheels?

Tesla not only tells you where the next charging stations are and how far until you get there but it tells you how many stalls are open at that time.
Btw when the pipeline hack just hit and gas was running dry it was a good time to have a electric vehicle!!

And what happens when they hit our electric grid?

[Laurawilcox]

Interesting article about Ford competing in electric. It said that the battery increases expense and decreases sales margin so the money is made up on the software upgrades. Any idea on how this works? Is there a subscription price or something along those lines with the ownership?

Also 3 out of 4 electric car sales are Tesla which I thought indicates perhaps more of a desire for Tesla than electric.

[Papa_lecki]

Glad you feel good driving your Tesla - how do you feel about 7 year olds mining the Colbat in the battery?

Amnesty International says human rights abuses, including the use of child labour, in the extraction of minerals, like cobalt, used to make the batteries that power electric vehicles is undermining ethical claims about the cars.

Artisanal miners as young as seven were seen by researchers who visited nine sites including deep mines dug by hand using basic tools. Miners, the youngest of whom were earning as little as $1 a day, reported suffering chronic lung disease from exposure to cobalt dust.

The dirty secret of electric vehicles | World Economic Forum (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/the-dirty-secret-of-electric-vehicles/)

[Ben Franklin]

I'll consider buying an electric vehicle when the Government stops subsidizing them and when more than 50 percent of new vehicle sales are electric. Until then, I won't buy one.

So you aren't driving a gas driven vehicle either? Because gas and oil has been subsidized for eons. And food. You're not eating food, I hope, because farming has been subsidized for eons too.

[JMintzer]

So you aren't driving a gas driven vehicle either? Because gas and oil has been subsidized for eons. And food. You're not eating food, I hope, because farming has been subsidized for eons too.

There is a difference in letting a business write off actual business expenses (which is what they are calling "subsidies for the gas/oil companies") and getting a tax break for buying a product.

You are actually taxed more when buying gasoline...

[DeanFL]

.
.
I REALLY like the looks and features of the brand new Ford Mach-E. And it's getting wonderful reviews. I like the styling better than Tesla, and the interior is great too. Much more stylish than Tesla IMO, and has a small display right in front of the driver too.

I looked at one up close, sat in, etc - but no test drive. Reason being... I did NOT wanted to be too tempted. For several reasons. We have a wonderful Mercedes SUV with only 27K miles. And Ford has the $7500 tax credit on their Elec vehicles - but our tax rate simply would not get much - would leave almost all of that "on the table" which is foolish.
.
.

[Ben Franklin]

There is a difference in letting a business write off actual business expenses (which is what they are calling "subsidies for the gas/oil companies") and getting a tax break for buying a product.

You are actually taxed more when buying gasoline...

What you are referring to is a tax benefit, not a direct subsidy. Subsidies are not what can be deducted because of business expenses.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs | White Papers | EESI (https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs)

[retiredguy123]

So you aren't driving a gas driven vehicle either? Because gas and oil has been subsidized for eons. And food. You're not eating food, I hope, because farming has been subsidized for eons too.
I don't like those subsidies either. Take away the subsidies and let the free market determine what people buy. There is too much Government control of everything. But, even with the subsidies, less than 5 percent of the vehicles on the road are electric.

[Brad-tv]

Where will all the electricity to charge all of these batteries come from?

Ideally renewable energy but not there yet.

And if they hack the grids no ones driving very far , unless you have solar with battery back up!!

[Brad-tv]

Glad you feel good driving your Tesla - how do you feel about 7 year olds mining the Colbat in the battery?

Amnesty International says human rights abuses, including the use of child labour, in the extraction of minerals, like cobalt, used to make the batteries that power electric vehicles is undermining ethical claims about the cars.

Artisanal miners as young as seven were seen by researchers who visited nine sites including deep mines dug by hand using basic tools. Miners, the youngest of whom were earning as little as $1 a day, reported suffering chronic lung disease from exposure to cobalt dust.

The dirty secret of electric vehicles | World Economic Forum (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/03/the-dirty-secret-of-electric-vehicles/)

That’s terrible hopefully that will end. Unfortunately this happens in many industries on a wide variety of products we have in our possession.

Apple and Google named in US lawsuit over Congolese child cobalt mining deaths | Global development | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths)

[Stu from NYC]

Until they allow us to recharge the battery in minutes not interested.

Cannot imagine driving long distance to see our kids and grandkids and have to wait and wait for battery to charge.

[patfla06]

The thing that concerns me about the Tesla is they make the body lightweight since it’s an EV but how does it fare in a car accident?

Also when we go to Miami to visit our Son I don’t want to spend a half
hour charging the car adding to our 4-hr. trip.

[JMintzer]

What you are referring to is a tax benefit, not a direct subsidy. Subsidies are not what can be deducted because of business expenses.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs | White Papers | EESI (https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costs)

Thanks for proving my point. Pretty much everything they listed as a "subsidy" was actually a business expense...

My business is an S Corp. I am allowed to "write off" my business expenses. Some, have to be depreciated, over several years, but most are written off as they occur. The only difference is that the government has allowed the gas/oil companies to either accelerate their depreciation schedules, or eliminate them, writing off the costs in the year they were incurred...

How that is considered a "subsidy" is mind boggling...

[JMintzer]

Ideally renewable energy but not there yet.

And if they hack the grids no ones driving very far , unless you have solar with battery back up!!

"Ideally"? There is nothing "renewable"on the horizon that will produce that much electricity to meet that much demand...

Solar with battery backup? Again, there is nothing available (or close to being available) that will produce that much energy in any reasonable time frame...

[JMintzer]

Just last week, I saw some city official (maybe the mayor?), bragging about all of the EV charging stations they were installing...

A reporter actually had the balls to ask "Where is the electricity coming from?", and some underling actually answered the question.

"90% comes from coal"...

They immediately ended the press conference...

I'm betting that underling is now looking for a new job...

[JMintzer]

The thing that concerns me about the Tesla is they make the body lightweight since it’s an EV but how does it fare in a car accident?

Actually, they have a very high safety rating...

tesla crash safety - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=tesla+crash+safety&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS873US874&oq=tesla+crash+safety&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l6j0i390l3.5729j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

[Brad-tv]

"Ideally"? There is nothing "renewable"on the horizon that will produce that much electricity to meet that much demand...

Solar with battery backup? Again, there is nothing available (or close to being available) that will produce that much energy in any reasonable time frame...

It is on the horizon still many years away and Solar with battery back up is here now for homeowners and you can sell your electric back to the grid.

Obviously you will never buy a electric car and I can understand why it’s not for you. Like it or not Electric cars are here to stay and gaining market share every day. Look at Ford , GM and VW to name a few and it’s full steam ahead for ALL car manufacturers . Internal combustible engine (ICE) sales will decline as more EVs ( electric vehicles) are produced.
Long distance driving will require more stops but normal every day driving these cars are the best for many reasons. Range will increase and charge times will decrease every year.

[JMintzer]

It is on the horizon still many years away and Solar with battery back up is here now for homeowners and you can sell your electric back to the grid.

Obviously you will never buy a electric car and I can understand why it’s not for you. Like it or not Electric cars are here to stay and gaining market share every day. Look at Ford , GM and VW to name a few and it’s full steam ahead for ALL car manufacturers . Internal combustible engine (ICE) sales will decline as more EVs ( electric vehicles) are produced.
Long distance driving will require more stops but normal every day driving these cars are the best for many reasons. Range will increase and charge times will decrease every year.

1. Never say never...

2. I didn't said I didn't like the fact that they are gaining market share (minuscule as it may be)...

3. For "normal every day driving these cars are the best for many reasons. Range will increase and charge times will decrease every year." That is certainly an opinion. One in which millions of people disagree. But "if" range increases and charging times decrease" to a level I deem acceptably, I might share that opinion...

4. When they are a viable form of transportation, at a reasonable cost, without subsidies (which I'll probably never receive), I'd certainly consider one. I have several friends who have Teslas and they love them for what they are. Local transportation, 50-100 miles a day. The wife and I often take long road trips and there is currently no serious option for that scenario. When there is, my thoughts may change...

[asianthree]

In what universe can you charge a Tesla in "30 minutes"?

https://evcharging.enelx.com/images/PR/Articles/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla-table.jpg

In the world of if you own it you know how long charging takes. There is an app for supercharger stations, never have to go out of the way. Driving a Tesla from Louisville to TV, is not a big deal. You can reserve a spot while shopping in Orlando, Disney. Shopping, or dinner takes more time than the charge.
Too bad Buc-ees doesn’t have superchargers, you could spend more than half an hour just walking around the store.

[Bay Kid]

The thing that concerns me about the Tesla is they make the body lightweight since it’s an EV but how does it fare in a car accident?

Also when we go to Miami to visit our Son I don’t want to spend a half
hour charging the car adding to our 4-hr. trip.

Don't get close to them in an accident. If there is a fire they go up real quick.

Sorry, but give me a V8.

[JMintzer]

In the world of if you own it you know how long charging takes. There is an app for supercharger stations, never have to go out of the way. Driving a Tesla from Louisville to TV, is not a big deal. You can reserve a spot while shopping in Orlando, Disney. Shopping, or dinner takes more time than the charge.
Too bad Buc-ees doesn’t have superchargers, you could spend more than half an hour just walking around the store.

You never have to go out of your way IF there are enough charging stations along your route.

Unfortunately, that is not yet the case, everywhere.

[Neils]

Another reason I don't want an electric car is that most of them are as ugly as a fat plumber's butt crack.

Whoa there!!! I have seen some that were not ugly at all

Plumbers, not elec cars

[valuemkt]

Just a random non Tesla EV question. Is it true that non Tesla EVs cannot use the Tesla Charging stations because of incompatibility of the plugs ? Do they have a patent on that connection ? If so, are we in or going to be in, a Betamax /VCR situation with multiple charging stations all over the place ?

[vinricci]

So patfla, do you always drive straight thru without a bathroom or snack break?

[TNLAKEPANDA]

Electric cars are fine for “around town “ vehicles but horrible for traveling any distance. We are not there yet and likely will not get there in our lifetime if you are over 60. Open Keystone!

[patfla06]

So patfla, do you always drive straight thru without a bathroom or snack break?

A lot of the time YES!
I don’t like to eat on the road, I pack a lunch but do not drink a lot.

Big difference between 5 minutes to gas up & 30+ minutes to charge up the car.

I’m always in a hurry to get there because I have 2 granddaughters (4 & 1)
waiting for us! 😊

[Brad-tv]

The Tesla Model3 Dual Motor Long Range 2020 is rated at 315miles full charge. So it’s way more than just running around town and you can drive a significant distance without recharging the batteries. So for 98% of your normal daily/ annual driving no concerns about looking for a charger just plug in when you get home and a full charge every day.
For the occasional road trip more that 250 miles away you may have to do a little more planning on where to plug in and get lunch. If that’s a problem then stick with your your ICE vehicle .
The 2021 Model3 LR goes 353 miles full charge and I expect this number is going to rise every year.
The Model S Plaid 390 mile range 0-60 in 2 seconds top speed 200 mph is the fastest production car ever made nothing can touch it.

The LR Model 3 does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds and performance in 3.7 seconds. This will beat most cars in the 1/4 mile even Ferraris have been left in the dust.
Electric Vehicles aren’t for everyone

[Fredman]

As far as I am concerned electric cars are a novelty. Don’t know why you would spend upwards to 50 grand for a car that goes 300 miles on a charge. Just an expensive toy to drive around town.

[Fredman]

In the world of if you own it you know how long charging takes. There is an app for supercharger stations, never have to go out of the way. Driving a Tesla from Louisville to TV, is not a big deal. You can reserve a spot while shopping in Orlando, Disney. Shopping, or dinner takes more time than the charge.
Too bad Buc-ees doesn’t have superchargers, you could spend more than half an hour just walking around the store.

So, they go from zero to sixty in a few seconds. How long does it take to go from 60 to zero when the batteries die?

[Brad-tv]

So, they go from zero to sixty in a few seconds. How long does it take to go from 60 to zero when the batteries die?

Good question?
Very comparable to a ICE car when it runs out of gas.

[asianthree]

So, they go from zero to sixty in a few seconds. How long does it take to go from 60 to zero when the batteries die?

No idea have never let battery go below 30. But I am guessing you might be experienced in running out of gas.
Ya know just because you are not a fan, doesn’t mean others can’t spend their money any way they want, on any vehicle.
Did I mention we also have a Rover, Never ran out of gas with that even playing in couple feet of snow.

Guessing I was raised to be just a responsible driver. Spend $$$ on gas for red rover, and minimal on charging

[tuccillo]

Teslas have 5 star collision safety ratings. That is the highest rating.

The thing that concerns me about the Tesla is they make the body lightweight since it’s an EV but how does it fare in a car accident?

Also when we go to Miami to visit our Son I don’t want to spend a half
hour charging the car adding to our 4-hr. trip.

[tuccillo]

The amount of additional electricity that will be needed is an easy calculation and has already been done. If all gas cars were replaced today with electric vehicles, the amount of electricity consumed would increase by approximately 25%. This doesn't include trucks. I suspect diesel trucks will be around longer than gas cars. Since the transition from overwhelmingly gas cars to mostly electric cars (at least for new car manufacturing) will likely take 15, or more, years, the required increase in power generation can be planned for.

Ideally renewable energy but not there yet.

And if they hack the grids no ones driving very far , unless you have solar with battery back up!!

[tophcfa]

The Tesla Model3 Dual Motor Long Range 2020 is rated at 315miles full charge. So it’s way more than just running around town and you can drive a significant distance without recharging the batteries. So for 98% of your normal daily/ annual driving no concerns about looking for a charger just plug in when you get home and a full charge every day.
For the occasional road trip more that 250 miles away you may have to do a little more planning on where to plug in and get lunch. If that’s a problem then stick with your your ICE vehicle .
The 2021 Model3 LR goes 353 miles full charge and I expect this number is going to rise every year.
The Model S Plaid 390 mile range 0-60 in 2 seconds top speed 200 mph is the fastest production car ever made nothing can touch it.

The LR Model 3 does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds and performance in 3.7 seconds. This will beat most cars in the 1/4 mile even Ferraris have been left in the dust.
Electric Vehicles aren’t for everyone

I don’t care how fast they go, it’s about how far they go, what terrain they are capable of handling, how much weight they can tow, and what other utility features they offer.

We drove back and forth between our Villages home and our home in the Berkshires 5 times in the last year. That’s a 2,750 mile round trip. When driving that far I find it annoying to have to stop for 5 minutes to fill up the gas tank. Having to find a charging station, hopefully one that is not being used, and then waiting for a charge is simply not an option. Can a Tesla handle dirt roads during mud season where my 4WD truck, with aggressive all terrain tires and generous ground clearance sometimes struggles. Can I let the tire pressure on a Tesla down to 12 PSI and drive it on the soft sandy beaches of outer Cape Cod? Can I tow my camper through the hilly terrain of northern New England while barley noticing a performance decline of the tow vehicle like I can with my truck. Oh, and can I attach a snow plow to the front of a Tesla and easily plow a foot of heavy wet snow? And exactly where in the Tesla can I transport a downed 8 point buck so I can get it to the butcher?

[tuccillo]

You can't compare the current Tesla offerings (sedans and crossovers) with a truck. Now, when the Tesla truck (the Cybertruck) is available later this year or early next year then you can make comparisons. For example, the Cybertruck will be able to tow 14,000 pounds, will have a maximum payload of 3500 pounds, 16" of ground clearance, and a range of 500 miles.

I don’t care how fast they go, it’s about how far they go, what terrain they are capable of handling, how much weight they can tow, and what other utility features they offer.

We drove back and forth between our Villages home and our home in the Berkshires 5 times in the last year. That’s a 2,750 mile round trip. When driving that far I find it annoying to have to stop for 5 minutes to fill up the gas tank. Having to find a charging station, hopefully one that is not being used, and then waiting for a charge is simply not an option. Can a Tesla handle dirt roads during mud season where my 4WD truck, with aggressive all terrain tires and generous ground clearance sometimes struggles. Can I let the tire pressure on a Tesla down to 12 PSI and drive it on the soft sandy beaches of outer Cape Cod? Can I tow my camper through the hilly terrain of northern New England while barley noticing a performance decline of the tow vehicle like I can with my truck. Oh, and can I attach a snow plow to the front of a Tesla and easily plow a foot of heavy wet snow? And exactly where in the Tesla can I transport a downed 8 point buck so I can get it to the butcher?

[DeanFL]

.
.
NEWS>>>
Everything You Need To Know About Tesla Model 2
Tesla may just land an affordable vehicle on the streets, the Model 2, quite soon, and here is everything we know about it.

A more affordable car than the Tesla Model 3 could very well be on its way. It isn't speculation but a promise by none other than Tesla's CEO, Elon Musk himself. The Tesla Model 2 may be one of the most exciting cars of the decade. Not only shall it bring electric mobility to the masses with its affordable price, but it could also revolutionize the way EVs are perceived and manufactured.

Musk hasn't yet commented on the time it would take for the new Model to see the light of the day, and neither has there been any official statement by the company. However, several speculations suggest that the new car will be called the 'Model 2'. Though we're yet to see any design updates on the car, it would be safe to assume it shall be jaw-dropping, considering Tesla's reputation.

From me>>>
THEN THEY HAD TO RUIN IT.... by stating>>>>

According to Musk, Model 2 will likely be manufactured in China for the global audience.

Reports have also suggested that Tesla would be building this new car entirely in China.

NO THANK YOU!!!!

https://www.hotcars.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-tesla-model-2/

[Brad-tv]

I don’t care how fast they go, it’s about how far they go, what terrain they are capable of handling, how much weight they can tow, and what other utility features they offer.

We drove back and forth between our Villages home and our home in the Berkshires 5 times in the last year. That’s a 2,750 mile round trip. When driving that far I find it annoying to have to stop for 5 minutes to fill up the gas tank. Having to find a charging station, hopefully one that is not being used, and then waiting for a charge is simply not an option. Can a Tesla handle dirt roads during mud season where my 4WD truck, with aggressive all terrain tires and generous ground clearance sometimes struggles. Can I let the tire pressure on a Tesla down to 12 PSI and drive it on the soft sandy beaches of outer Cape Cod? Can I tow my camper through the hilly terrain of northern New England while barley noticing a performance decline of the tow vehicle like I can with my truck. Oh, and can I attach a snow plow to the front of a Tesla and easily plow a foot of heavy wet snow? And exactly where in the Tesla can I transport a downed 8 point buck so I can get it to the butcher?

Electric cars aren’t for everyone

F-150 is coming but your still at about 300 miles.
And the cyber truck in a year or 3 with over a million pre orders with deposits. Cyber truck is going to have a 500 mile range

Electric cars and trucks aren’t for everyone

I’m only buying electric from now on but that’s what I like

[Brad-tv]

The amount of additional electricity that will be needed is an easy calculation and has already been done. If all gas cars were replaced today with electric vehicles, the amount of electricity consumed would increase by approximately 25%. This doesn't include trucks. I suspect diesel trucks will be around longer than gas cars. Since the transition from overwhelmingly gas cars to mostly electric cars (at least for new car manufacturing) will likely take 15, or more, years, the required increase in power generation can be planned for.

The Tesla Semi is in testing now ( with pre orders) plus the hydrogen fuel cell is ramping up on Semis. The drivers who are testing the love them no shifting gears anymore and charging stations are being installed in major hubs right now. All exciting stuff!!

[Number 10 GI]

The amount of additional electricity that will be needed is an easy calculation and has already been done. If all gas cars were replaced today with electric vehicles, the amount of electricity consumed would increase by approximately 25%. This doesn't include trucks. I suspect diesel trucks will be around longer than gas cars. Since the transition from overwhelmingly gas cars to mostly electric cars (at least for new car manufacturing) will likely take 15, or more, years, the required increase in power generation can be planned for.

For a long time now the electric grid system has been severely strained to meet demand during peak usage times. There are rolling brown outs due to the strain on a weak system and I haven't heard of any efforts being made to correct the problem. The powers that be won't do anything until the grid completely fails and then it will cost huge amounts of money and time to fix the problem. Politicians don't act, they only react so don't expect any efforts to expand electric generation.

[tuccillo]

Most power outages are due to weather events. I guess you can say the the power grids need to be "hardened" against the weather. Texas and California are the prime examples of weather issues. Power generation in the US has been flat for about a decade at about 4 trillion kWhs. The fuel sources have changed quite a bit with coal down and natural gas up. Apparently this is currently sufficient but I would expect this to increase somewhat over the next decade or so to accommodate electric cars. However, keep in mind that most recharging will probably be done at night when demand is low so peak loads might not be impacted that much.

For a long time now the electric grid system has been severely strained to meet demand during peak usage times. There are rolling brown outs due to the strain on a weak system and I haven't heard of any efforts being made to correct the problem. The powers that be won't do anything until the grid completely fails and then it will cost huge amounts of money and time to fix the problem. Politicians don't act, they only react so don't expect any efforts to expand electric generation.

[Topspinmo]

If there is a problem with the electrical grid or even just a power failure then you are still SOL with a gas car since you can't pump gas without power.

But my Honda can go over 550 miles on tank so I can just drive pass the power failure

[Topspinmo]

There is a difference in letting a business write off actual business expenses (which is what they are calling "subsidies for the gas/oil companies") and getting a tax break for buying a product.

You are actually taxed more when buying gasoline...

The government makes more on gallon of gas than company producing it, THAT’s why they get tax breaks/subsidies.

[tuccillo]

Depends on where the power failure is.

But my Honda can go over 550 miles on tank so I can just drive pass the power failure

[Bay Kid]

The government makes more on gallon of gas than company producing it, THAT’s why they get tax breaks/subsidies.

Don't forget the states also get their money (tax) on every gallon. Virginia is getting ready to add more TAX for all to build a rail system leading to dc.

Years ago all gas pumps had how much tax was collected by the feds and states, but that isn't allowed anymore. I wonder why???

[johnnascar]

stop and go traffic is when the electric vehicle is way more efficient

[Ben Franklin]

The future is electric.

The Future Is Electric (https://www.jpmorgan.com/insights/research/future-is-electric)

[Stu from NYC]

Don't forget the states also get their money (tax) on every gallon. Virginia is getting ready to add more TAX for all to build a rail system leading to dc.

Years ago all gas pumps had how much tax was collected by the feds and states, but that isn't allowed anymore. I wonder why???

They do not want us to know how much we are paying in taxes per gallon.

[Ben Franklin]

They do not want us to know how much we are paying in taxes per gallon.

In Florida we pay 52.8 cents a gallon tax, That's 34.4 cents Florida tax and 18.4 cents, Federal tax.

Here's the 2020 list for all states.

Gas Tax by State 2020 - Current State Diesel & Motor Fuel Tax Rates (https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/)

[Topspinmo]

Actually it will go 660 miles and then some.

[Bay Kid]

They do not want us to know how much we are paying in taxes per gallon.

The govern are so transparent. Those big bag oil companies.

[Footer]

I've been a strong advocate of the electric auto's for awhile but I'm been mostly curious about the Tesla and the advanced they have made. Still, I wonder about actual cost of ownership now that there are more and more on the road. In the early days of availability I think Tesla provided some rapid charging stations free of charge but I'm thinking that that was unsustainable. I've been wondering just how things are managed these days and how much it really costs to own and travel in one.

Not so many responses that answer your question. Here's my experience which may help.

In 2014 I bought a Model S with a range of 265 miles for $90,000. I got a $7500 federal tax credit. I received free use of Tesla's supercharger network, which was not so big at the time. I made several trips in the 1000 mile range. The superchargers show up on the big center-screen map and the navigation routing will take you to the right one before you run out of charge. In general every 3 hours I would stop and charge for 30-45 minutes. The superchargers are located close to restaurants and shopping so there is somewhere to go while charging. I rarely had to wait for an open space. There are typically 6-8 chargers at each location. Superchargers are wired in pairs so charging is slower if you use the second charger of the pair. Charging starts at 300 miles per hour but dwindles to as low as 70 miles per hour when the battery is close to fully charged.

I installed a 240V outlet in my garage that charges at 29 miles per hour. Roughly 10 KW, so if power costs 10 cents a KW it cost about 4 cents a mile. I would charge overnight once a week or so to meet my needs.

I paid for Tesla's annual maintenance at about $300 per year, mainly because the technology was new. I'm sure Tesla spent a fair bit of time when I brought it in for the same reason but it's likely very little maintenance was actually needed.

In 2016 I traded the car in on a new model with Autopilot (really just lane keeping an traffic aware cruise control). I received $50,000 for my old car so the cost of owning a Tesla for all practical purposes is the depreciation. Everything else is chump change.

I paid $92,000 for the 2016Model S and received another $7500 tax credit. I also have free supercharging for the life or the car, even if I sell it. This is no longer offered, which is a good thing because it gives people incentive to charge at home where it's cheaper. There is a Supercharger by the Wawa on 441 and I rarely see it used.

The supercharger network has been built out significantly. You can go just about anywhere and find one within 100 miles. I make an annual trip to Wisconsin. It's 1200 miles and takes about 23 hours, which is about 5 hours more than it would in a gas car.

Other than tires I haven't spent anything on maintenance for the 2016. I will have to buy a 12V battery in the near future which will cost $300 installed. Tesla sends a Ranger to your house to replace it. I got a quote for the trade-in value at $41,000. Probably get a bit more with a private sale. However I plan on keeping it for a while.

There are a lot of places that offer free 240V charging while you shop, but that only gets you 30 miles an hour. You certainly don't want to rely on this type of charger for a trip. Only Teslas can use their supercharger network. There are high speed chargers that other manufacturers can use and Tesla can too with an account and the right adapter. It's just harder to find them. The lack of a simple high speed charging network is what is keeping other manufacturers from competing with Tesla.

We got rid of our Lexus RX350 3 years ago. The Tesla is the only car we have now. We also have an electric golf cart with a lithium battery that goes 65 miles on a charge.

Tesla's newest Model S is $80,000 and the range is over 100 miles more than my car. It has 8 camera's and when you set it to sentry mode it records everything happening around the vehicle, whether it be someone cutting you off or keying your car when it's parked. It's amazing how many people feel the need to key a Tesla. But it typically takes only a couple hours to identify the culprit when the video is uploaded to social media.

So depending on your needs, it can be very easy for a Tesla to be your only car. Obviously, it's not for everyone and if it's not for you, don't buy one. I'll never buy an F150 but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

[DALEPQ]

Electricity is not free, someone has to pay for it.
How much does it cost now? What might the supply of electricity be in the future, if more and more cars become electric. Many electric grids are already strained. So, what will the future cost be to recharge???

[spd2918]

Thanks for the info, Footer. It's nice to see real world numbers.

Most people will be shocked to see $40,000 worth of depreciation in 2 years. That money would fuel a 25 mpg gas car for 333,333 miles (@ $3 a gallon). Gas cars depreciate, too, but $40k is breath taking.

[Nucky]

We just came back from a visit to see our kids. The oldest one bought a Tesla Model S Plaid? I had heard of Tesla before naturally but never this particular model. It is an absolute rocket. I don't know the facts and figures about the car but I do know that I surrendered the card back to my son after the second outing. You can use the card or an App that he put on my phone. I'm old enough now to realize my limitations. There is no need for me to drive a car with that kind of performance.

On the other hand as a family of car nuts. This is one car that has to be experienced if you think you can handle it. It makes you laugh and curse when you nail it. (I almost said hit the Gas Pedal)

I will definitely be in the market when the pickup truck from Tesla is ready to go. Can't wait.

Not really overly concerned about the price of the pickup truck.

[TNGary]

We just came back from a visit to see our kids. The oldest one bought a Tesla Model S Plaid? I had heard of Tesla before naturally but never this particular model. It is an absolute rocket. I don't know the facts and figures about the car but I do know that I surrendered the card back to my son after the second outing. You can use the card or an App that he put on my phone. I'm old enough now to realize my limitations. There is no need for me to drive a car with that kind of performance.

On the other hand as a family of car nuts. This is one car that has to be experienced if you think you can handle it. It makes you laugh and curse when you nail it. (I almost said hit the Gas Pedal)

I will definitely be in the market when the pickup truck from Tesla is ready to go. Can't wait.

Not really overly concerned about the price of the pickup truck.

The plaid can go from 0 to 60 MPH in less than 2 seconds. It has true kick!!! has 23 speakers + much more. Retail about $120K, Per CEO...faster than a Porsche and safer than a Volvo.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Thanks for the info, Footer. It's nice to see real world numbers.

Most people will be shocked to see $40,000 worth of depreciation in 2 years. That money would fuel a 25 mpg gas car for 333,333 miles (@ $3 a gallon). Gas cars depreciate, too, but $40k is breathtaking.

BMW 5 series depreciate about 50% in 3 years. Luxury cars, in general, depreciate about $25,000 in two years. And I believe the post said they would get more in a private sale. This is true of almost everything, trade in a $1,000 phone in two years and gets pennies back, private sell it, and get maybe 50% back.

And don't brush off the tires only maintenance. Check the maintenance cost on BMW 5 series and it is a bit more than tires. And if you get an error code, it's $250 just to read it, not to mention what the cost will be to repair whatever the code is for.

Tesla's have a very competitive total cost of ownership.

[GrumpyOldMan]

We just came back from a visit to see our kids. The oldest one bought a Tesla Model S Plaid? I had heard of Tesla before naturally but never this particular model. It is an absolute rocket. I don't know the facts and figures about the car but I do know that I surrendered the card back to my son after the second outing. You can use the card or an App that he put on my phone. I'm old enough now to realize my limitations. There is no need for me to drive a car with that kind of performance.

On the other hand as a family of car nuts. This is one car that has to be experienced if you think you can handle it. It makes you laugh and curse when you nail it. (I almost said hit the Gas Pedal)

I will definitely be in the market when the pickup truck from Tesla is ready to go. Can't wait.

Not really overly concerned about the price of the pickup truck.

LOL!

I completely agree with you about the performance. Several of my kids have them (not the plaid, but they are all FAST.)

I haven't driven one yet, but I got a 500HP Jag a couple of years ago, it has three modes I call fast, scary, and don't do that one EVER again. I put it in the fastest, punch it, and it took my breath away. After that experience, I will NEVER punch a Tesla - LOL!

[patfla06]

There are a lot of Youtube videos where the owners had a lot of complaints about their Teslas.
My concerns would be the expense of replacing the battery,
the time it takes to charge, & the interior is very plain and unimpressive.

Technology is changing every year with EVs, including the range, that
your car could get old fast.

[GrumpyOldMan]

There are a lot of Youtube videos where the owners had a lot of complaints about their Teslas.
My concerns would be the expense of replacing the battery,
the time it takes to charge, & the interior is very plain and unimpressive.

Technology is changing every year with EVs, including the range, that
your car could get old fast.

I think the definition of "lot" is subjective. Customer satisfaction is very high with Teslas. There are a LOT of people that hate Fords - (Fix or replace daily), and lots of people that hate Chevys. There are lots of people that hate just about everything. One thing to keep in mind when you read negative reviews on almost anything today is that there is a LOT of money to be made doing corporate sabotage.

And yes, technology on EVs is changing rapidly. Very rapidly, thanks for the most part to Teslas. They proved it is possible, now everyone else is jumping into the field. That is great for us - more choices and hopefully, it will drive the prices down and the quality up.

[RICH1]

In what universe can you charge a Tesla in "30 minutes"?

https://evcharging.enelx.com/images/PR/Articles/blog/how-long-does-it-take-to-charge-a-tesla-table.jpg
Supercharger... come on 25 min.... let's get on the Train.... the computer will inform you on charging stations, where and when you need to getR done...

[FromDC]

That's great all you Tesla owners have a garage to charge you car.

If you have a condo/apt and park in a large parking lot, maybe you will have a few charging stations. Let's see...set your alarm in the middle of the night to charge and set your alarm in the middle of the night to disconnect. Hopefully, you were able to charge that night. Remember everyone in the complex is thinking the same thing.

If you have a condo/apt and park on the city street, you will need to figure out when to charge. Maybe leaving an extra hour to get to work or do errands will do.

In these cases, you need to consider the COST of your time to deal with the charging hassle. I will never let my car rule my free time.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

For those who believe in the battery revolution, I own REMX and LIT ETFs, and a few rare earth metals companies. The projections of the battery revolution outstrips the known supply of the battery components. . . The next issue is that the electric generation increases are needed for this conversion . . . which is counter to the green energy revolution as green energy is great but doesn't scale well, and as seen out West and in Germany, can run out of supply. . .

Governments have mandated increased ICE efficiencies, but at the current time, after 100 years, the gas powered engine is at its max efficiency, evidenced by cheating on government tests. . . as they can't get there legally.

Battery weight is heavy, which requires a very light weight construction, and the recycling of batteries is unknown. . . an ICE car at death can be almost completely melted and recycled to a new model. . . with very little chemical residual. . . Current lithium batteries, needs more R&D, and then build some plants, at scale, disposal is unknown for environmental issues.

Just remember, Musk doesn't build and sell Teslas as a car company, but as a way to sell green energy credits. Your tesla will be all good until its not, and when its not, its really, really not. That may never happen, but it happens more often than ICE cars.

So you might be persuaded to buy into a new technology, but the products might not be as totally earth friendly and overall green as one currently believes in the marketing. . . your choice, hopefully, there won't be significant issues at scale. . .

[spd2918]

Comparing the depreciation to a BMW or Jag only shows what a poor investment these cars are. And that's with a taxpayer funded $7,500 gift.

Why do wealthy people need to be subsidized to buy luxury cars that depreciate steeply? Hmmm?

If these cars make economic sense then let the owners finance their purchases.

[GrumpyOldMan]

That's great all you Tesla owners have a garage to charge you car.

If you have a condo/apt and park in a large parking lot, maybe you will have a few charging stations. Let's see...set your alarm in the middle of the night to charge and set your alarm in the middle of the night to disconnect. Hopefully, you were able to charge that night. Remember everyone in the complex is thinking the same thing.

If you have a condo/apt and park on the city street, you will need to figure out when to charge. Maybe leaving an extra hour to get to work or do errands will do.

In these cases, you need to consider the COST of your time to deal with the charging hassle. I will never let my car rule my free time.

So you never go to a gas station to fill your ICE car?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Comparing the depreciation to a BMW or Jag only shows what a poor investment these cars are. And that's with a taxpayer funded $7,500 gift.

Why do wealthy people need to be subsidized to buy luxury cars that depreciate steeply? Hmmm?

If these cars make economic sense then let the owners finance their purchases.

Well, take another example. A police department bought one to test the idea. The chief said a year later than it paid for itself in less than a year compared to the standard ICE cruiser and they had plans to immediately buy more.

That is a pretty harsh real-life example.

[B-flat]

I have heard enough to decide that I don't want to buy an electric car. But, for me, the biggest issue is that, even with a fast charging time, there is no guarantee that you won't need to wait in line to plug in.

We travel 1325 miles one way twice per year. You know what you can do with electric cars don't you?

[spd2918]

Nobody can answer why are taxpayers subsidizing wealthy people's luxury car purchases?

[FromDC]

So you never go to a gas station to fill your ICE car? Yep. I go to the gas station, but I don't haveto set my alarm or look at an app to see if it's available!!

[LateBoomer]

I think at this point, until recharging stations are everywhere and it can be done in the same time it takes to gas up, instead of hours, I think I'll pass. a nice car to have for local trips I'm sure, but at this point wouldn't make a lot of sense to me.

[biker1]

Many EVs have depreciation issues. Teslas do not. Choose wisely.

Tesla Model 3 Three-Year Depreciation Is 10%: EV Industry Average Is 52% (https://insideevs.com/features/435693/tesla-model-3-exceptional-resale-value-among-cars/)

Comparing the depreciation to a BMW or Jag only shows what a poor investment these cars are. And that's with a taxpayer funded $7,500 gift.

Why do wealthy people need to be subsidized to buy luxury cars that depreciate steeply? Hmmm?

If these cars make economic sense then let the owners finance their purchases.

[spd2918]

Many EVs have depreciation issues. Teslas do not. Choose wisely.

Tesla Model 3 Three-Year Depreciation Is 10%: EV Industry Average Is 52% (https://insideevs.com/features/435693/tesla-model-3-exceptional-resale-value-among-cars/)


Not according to the real world example set in this thread. He lost 4 times that amount.

Again, if these are such a deal why are my tax dollars needed for the purchases? Buy your luxury car with your own money.

[biker1]

The Government is in the business of choosing winners and losers. You can either go with the flow or complain. Why do you think today is any different than the past? BTW, the average new car price is about $40K. There are several EVs that are available for that price so it would be wrong to characterize all EVs as "wealthy people's luxury car purchases". EVs from Tesla, the market leader, are not subsidized anymore - the subsidy ran out.

Nobody can answer why are taxpayers subsidizing wealthy people's luxury car purchases?

[biker1]

That was one cherry picked example. Did you read the reference I provided? Model 3s, which the reference I provided was primarily focused on, are better than Model X and Model S with respect to depreciation. Who said they were a "deal"? And I will take advantage of any and all tax breaks that the Government sees fit to provide me, thank you very much.

Not according to the real world example set in this thread. He lost 4 times that amount.

Again, if these are such a deal why are my tax dollars needed for the purchases? Buy your luxury car with your own money.

[BigSteph]

I don't have anything against electric cars.

I desperately wanted to support electric when buying a golf cart, but ultimately went with gas powered (for all the reasons endlessly debated before).

I keep vehicles for a long time. I was uncomfortable with the idea of replacing batteries (the expense, the warranty, etc.). Most of this is the curse of being middle class. If I had more resources, I would be all over these new electric vehicles.

[Brad-tv]

It seems there is a love hate relationship with Tesla/ EVs
They’re not for everyone and trying to convince EV haters is a waste of time. I have never spoken to a Tesla owner who is not in love with the car and looks forward to driving it everyday. EVs are the way of the future and all OEMS are going that way in the not too distant future.

Tesla is the best EV out there hands down no other car comes close and every day and every update the car gets better!

[HogPilot]

[BAnd they look like a frog!

Went to Disney the other day. There were five charging stations and all were occupied. What if you are the sixth Tesla?

I was wondering about that too. Unless there is a disincentive for remaining in the spot after charging is complete (i.e. added fee for continuing to park), this will continue to happen. Same at a hotel, parking garage etc. Otherwise these fully charged vehicles are taking a space that another electric vehicle might otherwise use.

Additionally, I have seen [B]non electric vehicles parking in charging spaces simply because its closer to the hotel entrance. In front of the sign that indicates "parking for EV's".

Another consideration: Unless this this infrastructure bill has provisions for high speed charging either plug-in or magnetic like some buses, it will be a while before you can convince the public to go electric. Charging will have to be equivalent to about the time it takes to fill the gas tank. The technology is there.

What about charging stations at rest stops & all gas stations too?

[Garywt]

Not that I would ever buy one but to leave MA to take the 20 hour drive down, how much longer would it take. Also, no different than an electric golf cart, if the batteries die and you are not near a charger, what do you do. Come 2 AM how hard is it to find a charger. I will stay with gas.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Not according to the real world example set in this thread. He lost 4 times that amount.

Again, if these are such a deal why are my tax dollars needed for the purchases? Buy your luxury car with your own money.

His was not a model 3, but you hat Telsas we got it. Don't buy one, please.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Not that I would ever buy one but to leave MA to take the 20 hour drive down, how much longer would it take. Also, no different than an electric golf cart, if the batteries die and you are not near a charger, what do you do. Come 2 AM how hard is it to find a charger. I will stay with gas.

If you run out of gas and you are not near a filling station what do you do? The range of the EV and the ICe are about the same now. So, no real difference there, if you are careless and run out of gas, you pay to have someone bring you some. There are services to bring you a charger to get you charged enough to get you to a charging station.

[GrumpyOldMan]

This thread is turning hillarious.

I hope everyone realizes ALL these comments were made about Model T's. LOL! "I am gonna stick with my horse, this here gasoline thing ain't never gonna amount to nothin..." LOL.

[Garywt]

If you run out of gas and you are not near a filling station what do you do? The range of the EV and the ICe are about the same now. So, no real difference there, if you are careless and run out of gas, you pay to have someone bring you some. There are services to bring you a charger to get you charged enough to get you to a charging station.

Getting a gallon of gas is easy and you are on your way. For a charge, you wait for the battery to charge and then when you find a charging station you sit and wait again. In the mean time the gas vehicle is at least an hour down the road.

Might be nice for around town but not to travel with.

[John41]

I prefer a gasoline powered car. But, I admire what Musk is doing with Tesla and his space ventures. Unfortunately here’s some facts to ponder for EV fans who think that’s the future.
——————-
A year ago, J.D. Power issued a “reality check” for automakers, reporting that consumer’s enthusiasm for EVs remained at 55 on a scale of 100.

“Frankly, we’re concerned for automakers,” Kristin Kolodge, executive director of driver interaction & human machine interface research at J.D. Power, said at the time. “They’re pushing forward with technology that consumers seem to have little interest in.”

The first quarter of 2021 may or may not signal a change in attitudes. But while the jump in sales of EV and hybrids in the first quarter is eye-popping in terms of percentage, it adds up to about 300,000 units out of the nearly 4 million cars and trucks consumers purchased.

[biker1]

EV sales in the US for 2020 were about 2% (new vehicles). This will probably increase to 3-4% for 2021 so the trajectory is upward. Perhaps this increases to 10-15% by 2025 ??? 14 million news cars were sold in the US last year. It will take some time to build battery factories to make enough batteries to reach a point where EV sales exceed gas car sales - perhaps by the end of the decade??

The EV market in the US is dominated by Tesla and they sell every car they can make - about 300K in 2020. Their sales are constrained by their battery production.

Tesla is also a luxury car brand and they either essentially match or outsell every other luxury brand in the US such as Lexus, MB, Audi, BWM, Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Infinity, Porsche, Volvo, etc. They also essentially match or outsell Mazda and VW in the US. The Tesla Model 3 is the best selling luxury model in the US.

The real concern for automakers in the US should be China. EVs might become a disruptive technology - think of the iPhone. You know where iPhones are manufactured.

I prefer a gasoline powered car. But, I admire what Musk is doing with Tesla and his space ventures. Unfortunately here’s some facts to ponder for EV fans who think that’s the future.
——————-
A year ago, J.D. Power issued a “reality check” for automakers, reporting that consumer’s enthusiasm for EVs remained at 55 on a scale of 100.

“Frankly, we’re concerned for automakers,” Kristin Kolodge, executive director of driver interaction & human machine interface research at J.D. Power, said at the time. “They’re pushing forward with technology that consumers seem to have little interest in.”

The first quarter of 2021 may or may not signal a change in attitudes. But while the jump in sales of EV and hybrids in the first quarter is eye-popping in terms of percentage, it adds up to about 300,000 units out of the nearly 4 million cars and trucks consumers purchased.

[Topspinmo]

I will never own Tesla. Hybrid maybe? But, never all electric.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Getting a gallon of gas is easy and you are on your way. For a charge, you wait for the battery to charge, and then when you find a charging station you sit and wait again. In the meantime, the gas vehicle is at least an hour down the road.

Might be nice for around town but not to travel with.

So, you get a gallon of gas and you are on your way, for what 20 miles? Hope you find a gas station within that 20 miles. Roadside battery quick charge services are becoming available for road service in some places now. It is a pickup truck towing a generator. They come out, plug you in, and in 15 or 20 minutes you have 20 miles.

Best advice, don't run out of fuel - the gas or charge is cheap, the $150 for the road service is a pain, and the hour or two waiting for the roadside service to get to you is a pain.

Also, don't forget that Tesla monitors your charge level and usage, it also knows where all charging stations are, where you are going and which station is the safest to route you to ensure you don't run out of charge on the road.

ICE vehicles can accomplish similar navigation aid, but few offers it built in.

The only REAL differences are: first, time to fuel. gas takes 5 minutes, EV takes 30. Second is cost, gas costs about $0.10/mile, EV costs about $0.04/per - not a major difference but adds up - say 100,000 miles comes to $10,000 for gas and $4,000 for EV. ICE will need oil changes (5 or 10? at $100 each?), brakes (once at $500 to $1000?), and various maintenance visits (service costs to maintain warranty) - say a couple of thousand total if it is a similarly priced car. EV will need little to no maintenance, no brakes, no oil changes, no filters, etc, etc etc.

So, for 100,000 miles in say 3 years (lots of driving long distance) ICE will run you about what in operational costs, $15,000? EV will run you about $5,000. And I am being VERY generous on the cost of driving an ICE. As a consultant for 35 years, I billed $0.35 to $0.50 per mile to drive to and from my client's place. With an EV I could have reduced that to about $0.10/mile and saved them some money.

So, for that $10,000 estimated additional cost, you save maybe 25 minutes each time you fill up on the road. Planned correctly that time is spent eating, refreshing, and getting a little fresh air. At home, around town, unlike the ICE, you might never have to go to a charging station to fill up, your car can recharge overnight every night. So, it is always ready to go the full range. (In case of saying an unexpected hurricane (highly unlikely - LOL) comes and you forgot to get gas, you need to stand in line with all the other ICE cars to fill up so you can evacuate, with the EV you can take off and go 200 miles or more before having to recharge. That will get you almost to Atlanta?

I will completely agree it is very new technology and there could be unforeseen costs that come up down the road - so to say (sorry for the pun).

And the upfront costs are higher - feature for feature. But the long-term total cost of ownership, the EV wins. At least that is what places like the police departments that are brutal on cruisers are finding. The Tesla model 3s pay for themselves in reduced maintenance costs within a year or two, because they drive them hard and over 100,000 miles per year. Companies like Amazon are preordering fleets of EVs (not Teslas, but EVs) for delivery vehicles - again because the cost of ownership is so much lower. The post office is investing in a fleet renewal that is likely mostly EVs. Taxi services around the world are buying. In Quatar they are already using Teslas for self-driving shuttle service to/from the airport. Again the big selling point is the total cost of ownership, not local convenience or "cuteness".

Tesla is a pioneer in the field, they charge a premium, and they get it. They are almost always back-ordered on all models. The Model S (mentioned in the thread? or was it a Y - I forget) is back-ordered all the way into next year. Not so much for practical reasons, but because a lot of people like the idea of a "luxury car" (family sedan) that goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds. LOL. Not practical, but people are not very practical.

Tesla also does not have the highest build quality. It is not bad, but it is not as good as comparably priced cars. They went through a manufacturing learning curve in a couple of years that all the other car companies went through over decades. Tesla does not compare to a nice BWM, Lexus, etc. But, they are learning and getting better.

Anyway, sorry, I tend to ramble - LOL on...

[GrumpyOldMan]

EV sales in the US for 2020 were about 2% (new vehicles). This will probably increase to 3-4% for 2021 so the trajectory is upward. Perhaps this increases to 10-15% by 2025 ??? 14 million news cars were sold in the US last year. It will take some time to build battery factories to make enough batteries to reach a point where EV sales exceed gas car sales - perhaps by the end of the decade??

The EV market in the US is dominated by Tesla and they sell every car they can make - about 300K in 2020. Their sales are constrained by their battery production.

Tesla is also a luxury car brand and they either essentially match or outsell every other luxury brand in the US such as Lexus, MB, Audi, BWM, Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura, Infinity, Porsche, Volvo, etc. They also essentially match or outsell Mazda and VW in the US. The Tesla Model 3 is the best selling luxury model in the US.

The real concern for automakers in the US should be China. EVs might become a disruptive technology - think of the iPhone. You know where iPhones are manufactured.

Yup to all this. One note, Tesla is rumored to be preparing an "under $25k" model for release this year or early next year. That will be disruptive.

I do believe one should never underestimate Musk's ability to be disruptive. The world said he couldn't reduce the cost and time to drill tunnels, he did, they said he couldn't make a practical EV, he did, they said he couldn't reuse rockets, he is. If he is anything it is disruptive - LOL

[Northerner52]

The politicians will force you to buy electric in the future even thought the grid still makes dirty electricity. We will need charging parking lots the size of Walmarts to charge cars as many do not have garages and 220 volts chargers at home.

I have heard enough to decide that I don't want to buy an electric car. But, for me, the biggest issue is that, even with a fast charging time, there is no guarantee that you won't need to wait in line to plug in.

[Bay Kid]

If you run out of gas and you are not near a filling station what do you do? The range of the EV and the ICe are about the same now. So, no real difference there, if you are careless and run out of gas, you pay to have someone bring you some. There are services to bring you a charger to get you charged enough to get you to a charging station.

I have over 500 miles on a full tank until empty. Should never be a problem running out of gas. If you need a charge in the middle of no charge you will need gas/diesel to help give you a charge.

Never run so low you run out of anything!

[spd2918]

His was not a model 3, but you hat Telsas we got it. Don't buy one, please.

I dont hate them. I just hate my money paying wealthy people's bills. You are obviously in the cult.

I'm done asking why they need to be subsidized as no one can answer that.

[spd2918]

The Comfort of the rich (Tesla owners) depends on an abundant supply of the poor (people's tax dollars) --- Voltaire

[Topspinmo]

The politicians will force you to buy electric in the future even thought the grid still makes dirty electricity. We will need charging parking lots the size of Walmarts to charge cars as many do not have garages and 220 volts chargers at home.

Plus everything made out of fossil fuels or mined with fossil fuels. Without fossil fuels there would be no electric’s everything made to produce electricity is made out of fossil fuels. So there will alway be drilling and mining. Coal is cheap and plentiful thought out the world, wind don’t blow everywhere, clouds block solar panels, and it’s getting worse with comtrails every year.


We will all be dust or skeletons before solar or wind power even comes close to 50% of energy needed whe would populations keeps growing, that population growth is 3rd world where they use the dirtiest of all energy choices. Will there be day fossils will be reduce to where green energy is now? I hope so, but IMO not for at least another 100 years.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I don't hate them. I just hate my money paying wealthy people's bills. You are obviously in the cult.

I'm done asking why they need to be subsidized as no one can answer that.

Sorry, I missed your question. And maybe people would answer your questions if you stopped insulting them. I am not in a cult. If that is the game you want to play, then you are obviously in THE cult.

As with many questions from people in YOUR cult, the question is framed to presume a negative intent on the part of the government. The reason the government subsidizes new technology development is that in an economy where there are long-established competing technologies, it can be impossible for something that is good and beneficial to society to become competitive. Subsidizing the new technology for a short period of time it gives it the ability to reach a level of production that is able to compete. This results in everyone benefiting, not just the rich.

But, I understand, in your CULT you believe taxes are a crime and any expenditure that doesn't benefit you is stealing your money and giving it to the poor - communist. "


There, am I getting better at playing your insult game? I feel so good now, almost like I was 10 years old again.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Plus everything made out of fossil fuels or mined with fossil fuels. Without fossil fuels there would be no electric’s everything made to produce electricity is made out of fossil fuels. So there will alway be drilling and mining. Coal is cheap and plentiful thought out the world, wind don’t blow everywhere, clouds block solar panels, and it’s getting worse with comtrails every year.


We will all be dust or skeletons before solar or wind power even comes close to 50% of energy needed whe would populations keeps growing, that population growth is 3rd world where they use the dirtiest of all energy choices. Will there be day fossils will be reduce to where green energy is now? I hope so, but IMO not for at least another 100 years.

I assume this was sarcasm? Alternative energy is rapidly advancing around the world, only here is it considered a bad thing.

[biker1]

I don’t know what you define as the “future”. I can imagine a point, perhaps 25 years from now, when you will not be able to purchase a new gas vehicle. That doesn’t mean the gas vehicles will not still be around. The Government will financially incent you to move in the direction they want you to go. Gas might become very expensive and harder to find.

Electricity from the grid, regardless of how it is made, is cleaner than burning gas. Also, electric cars use less total energy than gas cars. EVs typically use about 1/3 the energy per mile as gas cars. They take more energy to manufacture but recoup the energy difference quickly - some estimates put it as after 5000 miles.

Buy one or don’t buy one. Tilt against windmills or don’t tilt against windmills. The Government subsidizes all sorts of things in an attempt to get you to do what they want. They wanted you to get a vaccine so they paid for it. They wanted you to buy a house so they made mortgage interest tax deductible. They want you to invest long term in businesses so they tax the first 80K of long term capital gains at 0%.


The politicians will force you to buy electric in the future even thought the grid still makes dirty electricity. We will need charging parking lots the size of Walmarts to charge cars as many do not have garages and 220 volts chargers at home.

[GrumpyOldMan]

I don’t know what you define as the “future”. I can imagine a point, perhaps 25 years from now, when you will not be able to purchase a new gas vehicle. That doesn’t mean the gas vehicles will not still be around. The Government will financially incent you to move in the direction they want you to go. Gas might become very expensive and harder to find.

Electricity from the grid, regardless of how it is made, is cleaner than burning gas. Also, electric cars use less total energy than gas cars. EVs typically use about 1/3 the energy per mile as gas cars. They take more energy to manufacture but recoup the energy difference quickly - some estimates put it as after 5000 miles.

Buy one or don’t buy one. Tilt against windmills or don’t tilt against windmills. The Government subsidizes all sorts of things in an attempt to get you to do what they want. They wanted you to get a vaccine so they paid for it. They wanted you to buy a house so they made mortgage interest tax deductible. They want you to invest long term in businesses so they tax the first 80K of long term capital gains at 0%.

Yeah, it's called social engineering, sadly. The government attempts to change social behavior by providing incentives to change. BOTH parties do it. The sad thing is when social engineering is done to facilitate a politician getting into the office or staying in office, not for the benefit of society.

There are examples of governments doing social engineering that is to benefit society, New Zealand comes to mind as a country that focuses its government on benefiting the people, and not big business. Eisenhower warned us about funding the Military-Industrial Complex, and we ignored him, so we just spent 20 years and $3T subsidizing an industry that focuses on meddling in other countries lives - and not protecting the US, since there are NO countries (other than possibly China) that could threaten the US and expect to survive the action.

But, yes, I agree with your post. And it is a sad post.

[DaddyD]

It's astounding how many replies there are on this thread, and how few of them have anything to do with the question the OP asked.

The OP asked specifically about the cost of ownership, yet 90% of the replies are people writing their opinion about electric vs gas cars, environmental consideration, how long it takes to charge a Tesla, etc..

[GrumpyOldMan]

It's astounding how many replies there are on this thread, and how few of them have anything to do with the question the OP asked.

The OP asked specifically about the cost of ownership, yet 90% of the replies are people writing their opinion about electric vs gas cars, environmental consideration, how long it takes to charge a Tesla, etc..

Are you new to TOTV? At least this thread is still about Tesla's mostly - and that is almost unique here after this many posts.

Also, there have been a couple that specifically addressed the OP question which is also unique.

[GrumpyOldMan]

And if there is a problem with the electrical grid or even just a power failure you are SOL. A least gas can be delivered to you if you run out in the middle of the road. Imagine being stuck in a bad traffic jam and running out of power.

And if the power grid is down, just how is it that the gas station is going to pump the gas into your ICE car? Just asking...

[Stu from NYC]

It's astounding how many replies there are on this thread, and how few of them have anything to do with the question the OP asked.

The OP asked specifically about the cost of ownership, yet 90% of the replies are people writing their opinion about electric vs gas cars, environmental consideration, how long it takes to charge a Tesla, etc..

Answers were given and than the thread moved on like threads here do.

[Dana1963]

I've been a strong advocate of the electric auto's for awhile but I'm been mostly curious about the Tesla and the advanced they have made. Still, I wonder about actual cost of ownership now that there are more and more on the road. In the early days of availability I think Tesla provided some rapid charging stations free of charge but I'm thinking that that was unsustainable. I've been wondering just how things are managed these days and how much it really costs to own and travel in one.
The real-time driving experience is different for all of us. Battery-operated vehicles are designed for commuters. If I stop being a snowbird I would seriously consider an affordable EV vehicle.


American Driving Survey revealed that:
Motorists age 16 years and older drive, on average, 29.2 miles per day or 10,658 miles per year.
Women take more driving trips, but men spend 25 percent more time behind the wheel and drive 35 percent more miles than women.
Both teenagers and seniors over the age of 75 drive less than any other age group; motorists 30-49 years old drive an average 13,140 miles annually, more than any other age group.
The average distance and time spent driving increase in relation to higher levels of education. A driver with a grade school or some high school education drove an average of 19.9 miles and 32 minutes daily, while a college graduate drove an average of 37.2 miles and 58 minutes.
Drivers who reported living “in the country” or “a small town” drive greater distances (12,264 miles annually) and spend a greater amount of time driving than people who described living in a “medium sized town” or city (9,709 miles annually).
Motorists in the South drive the most (11,826 miles annually), while those in the Northeast drive the least (8,468 miles annually).
On average, Americans drive fewer miles on the weekend than on weekdays.
Americans drive, on average, the least during winter months (January through March) at 25.7 miles daily; they drive the most during the summer months (July through September) at 30.6 miles daily.

[spd2918]

Sorry, I missed your question.....

There, am I getting better at playing your insult game? I feel so good now, almost like I was 10 years old again.

You wrote i "obviously hate" Tesla cars. You have no evidence of that. I actually like most things mechanical and am considered by most to a motorhead. I made a simple observation that subsidizing wealthy people's purchases with taxpayer dollars is wrong and then I (repeatedly) asked why these are cars subsidized.

You simply cannot handle different opinions and inconvenient facts. Very cult like not to be self reflective. You have made far more posts than any others in this thread to defend your opinion. Then you make assumptions about those that disagree with you. Well played.

[TCNY61]

The politicians will force you to buy electric in the future even thought the grid still makes dirty electricity. We will need charging parking lots the size of Walmarts to charge cars as many do not have garages and 220 volts chargers at home.

My neighbor has seven kids and there are at least six cars over there. If they were all to use electric they would need to have at least a 400 amp panel installed and would still probably need to wake up in the middle of the night to switch out charging.

[Luggage]

While most of the commenters are talking about the time to charge the original op is talking about the cost overall. First you have to consider the premium for buying this car versus an average car and I know some people will say but it's like a Cadillac or a Lincoln and you going to pay more. But that's your choice. As I said before the many people you don't buy this car based on what it cost to run or not run it's obviously cheaper to fill it up with electricity and there's less maintenance overall. However considering the average person when they retire won't drive 50,000 miles a year there isn't really much difference if you compare apples to apples 10,000 miles a year with any decent hybrid. The question I have for most people is there you willing to spend up front 10 or 15,000 more for an all electric versus a gas car even though you know you would save it over 5-10 years. You can also argue it's more convenient to wait 5 minutes at the gas station in 30 minutes on a highway to recharge and you'll also hear of I don't need to be at a dirty gas station. The truth of the matter is that there are many cars that can still go 400 - 500 miles on one tank of gas without stopping and if you can hold yourself without going to a bathroom that certainly is one advantage for gas. The other thing to think about is that there's certainly an economic advantage of buying a two or three-year-old gas car for half the price of a Tesla 3 that's new and you'll save $20,000 easily for a pretty good car with about 20,000 miles on it.
Even if you drive 10,000 miles a year with that gas car, it's going to cost you $1,200 in gas versus maybe 3 or 400 electric and you'll still save $10,000 over the life of either car for 8 or 10 years.

[Luggage]

Except in Scandinavia where it's about 70% electric due to a very large government

[Luggage]

There is definitely some truth to that rumor but we're actually subsidizing the car companies and not just the wealthy people because they can afford it anyway. It would make more sense to have a scalable rebate based on the price of a car, meaning that a car under $25,000 will get a higher rebate than a car that's $35,000 etc

[Luggage]

Actually the entire tax system is either set up to benefit business or for social engineering. Ie the huge deductions when you have children or buy a house. So promoting an electric car versus a gas car is obviously also a socially engineered tax that she's supposedly to help with pollution etc. Billions have been given away to consumers in the effort to help manufacturers of electric vehicles. Nothing has been given to hybrids which would have benefited much more as their more of them, just imagine if 7500 was taken off the price of a $20,000 car that was a hybrid, literally tens of millions would be sold because they would become the cheapest cars and every manufacturer would try to make them.

Yeah, it's called social engineering, sadly. The government attempts to change social behavior by providing incentives to change. BOTH parties do it. The sad thing is when social engineering is done to facilitate a politician getting into the office or staying in office, not for the benefit of society.

There are examples of governments doing social engineering that is to benefit society, New Zealand comes to mind as a country that focuses its government on benefiting the people, and not big business. Eisenhower warned us about funding the Military-Industrial Complex, and we ignored him, so we just spent 20 years and $3T subsidizing an industry that focuses on meddling in other countries lives - and not protecting the US, since there are NO countries (other than possibly China) that could threaten the US and expect to survive the action.

But, yes, I agree with your post. And it is a sad post.

[biker1]

There is a tax credit for plug-in hybrids. The amount varies from model to model.


Nothing has been given to hybrids which would have benefited much more as their more of them, just imagine if 7500 was taken off the price of a $20,000 car that was a hybrid, literally tens of millions would be sold because they would become the cheapest cars and every manufacturer would try to make them.

[Nucky]

Well, we should be finding out the real facts and figures sometime next year. Just put a deposit on the Cybertruck. I can't wait. I don't think we'll use it when we go visiting up north, that's why we have Enterprise.

I can't wait but have to get comfortable because I think it's going to be a while.

I had every intention of leasing a Cadillac SUV loaner car when we went to Jersey in July. The exact same vehicle was leased by a good friend for $498 a month with I believe $5k down. The price went up to $798 at the only dealer that had four in stock in Pennsylvania

[CoachKandSportsguy]

just don't try to hold onto the car too long, or all that gas savings will be gone when you need a new battery. . .

:boxing2:

[Brad-tv]

A 2013 model S
How many miles?

[CoachKandSportsguy]

A 2013 model S
How many miles?

Its not me and its from the Tesla users group, where everyone should go if they want to learn first hand about tesla ownership.

Second, not sure if age or usage determines the life of these types of batteries, however, at $11K, at 20M per gallon and $3.00 per gallon, that's 73,333 miles on an ICE car.

so unless the Tesla went farther than that, you throw the car Tesla away, because it costs you more than the gas savings, over the longer term, with the higher risk of mechanical / electronic issues. . . software updates creating bricks, brake and unintended acceleration issues, etc.

just elite virtue signalling, that's all

[biker1]

I can’t tell the number of miles. It looks like a 2013 - should still be under the battery warranty (8 years, 150K miles with 70% retention ) ??? Regardless, I doubt this is a typical situation unless the battery has been abused (the equivalent in a gas car is never changing the oil). There are Model Ss out there with 300K miles on the original battery. Cherry picking to fit your narrative.

just don't try to hold onto the car too long, or all that gas savings will be gone when you need a new battery. . .

:boxing2:

[DaddyD]

It would be really interesting to know how many of the people on this thread who have posted negative things about Tesla, have actually driven or been in a passenger seat of a recent year model Tesla? I'd bet most haven't.

Not too long ago I was at a body shop getting some work done on my Genesis (great car by the way) and got into a conversation with the owner about cars. Somehow we got on the topic of Tesla, and he asked me "Have you ever ridden in one?" When I replied no, he asked me "Would you like to? Let's go for a drive"

He took me on a 5 minute drive, and all I can say is WOW! That was one super-cool car!

[biker1]

You can go to Orlando or Tampa for a test drive if you want to get behind the wheel. Bring some neck protection for acceleration whiplash ;-)

It would be really interesting to know how many of the people on this thread who have posted negative things about Tesla, have actually driven or been in a passenger seat of a recent year model Tesla? I'd bet most haven't.

Not too long ago I was at a body shop getting some work done on my Genesis (great car by the way) and got into a conversation with the owner about cars. Somehow we got on the topic of Tesla, and he asked me "Have you ever ridden in one?" When I replied no, he asked me "Would you like to? Let's go for a drive"

He took me on a 5 minute drive, and all I can say is WOW! That was one super-cool car!

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Consumer Reports, Reliability, again, not my opinion, just posting actual opinions from reputable sources
Tesla, dead last. Might add to the cost of ownership, dunno, just spitballing here. . . and the cost of free to repair without use of the car, is still a cost of inconvenience. .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Regardless, I doubt this is a typical situation unless the battery has been abused (the equivalent in a gas car is never changing the oil). There are Model Ss out there with 300K miles on the original battery. Cherry picking to fit your narrative.

Doubting, as an opinion, just fits your narrative, doesn't make the topic false.

[biker1]

Don't give me that crap. I never said the topic was false. Don't put words in my mouth. Please present some data on the Tesla fleet to support your narrative about the Tesla batteries. You put it out there, defend it or shut up. Not just one cherry picked case.


Doubting, as an opinion, just fits your narrative, doesn't make the topic false.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

And also don't drag race, the brakes aren't built to stop all the torque

https://twitter.com/i/status/1433888996216786948

Watch the last 20 seconds where the car lands up, as the driver tries to stop the car.

not that many of you here will try this I trust.
Unfortunately, the video is taken down from youtube, or the link is not working, same concept. . .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Tesla'''s Pending China Sales and Model S Plaid—with an Asterisk - by Vicki Bryan - Vicki Bryan'''s Bond Angle (https://bondangle.substack.com/p/teslas-pending-china-sales-and-model)

independent review of the discrepancies in the advertised performance specs. . .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Another Tesla reportedly using Autopilot hits a parked police car - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/30/business/tesla-crash-police-car/index.html)

of course, the autopilot hones in on parked police cars like a cruise missile. . .

[Nucky]

Where is the Cybertruck? It's been several days since we ordered it and NOTHING yet? Another year. I don't know if I'm gonna make it that long. I'm happier than a Clam At High Tide! Can't wait.

I ordered the one with two motors and already my kids have me thinking about getting the one with three motors. My plan of living here with a cheapo car did last for five years. I knew I wouldn't make it

till the end without getting something fun and nuts.

[Brad-tv]

I see there’s a lot of EV haters ( especially Tesla?) but whether you like it or not it’s inevitable ICE manufacturers will all go electric .

ELECTRIC CARS ARE COMING SOON, NO MATTER WHAT THE HATERS SAY | Tesla Owners Online (https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/electric-cars-are-coming-soon-no-matter-what-the-haters-say.18704/)

[CoachKandSportsguy]

But if there isn't enough raw materials to make safe batteries, EV won't scale. . . If you all think this will come true, you all should be investing in LIT, the lithium ETF, REMX, Rare Earth Metals, or Rare Earth Elements, and URA, or uranium which is the cleanest power production process yet, as the grid will need to have more power. Seriously, you will make lots of money, I have already, and it will continue. . . its a good 10-15% of my portfolio just for this reason.

Elon made electric vehicles sexy as a prototype, yes, whole heartedly agree, although he was not the founder of Tesla, he saw an opportunity and exploited the govt subsidies. Elon knows how to talk to make complex topics appear simple to lay people, and the lay people take it and try to reuse it to appear smart. Yes, I know first hand as he tried it in the electric utility on Linked In with a hand sketch diagram of proposed wires between houses as marketing for his roof shingles. I asked the electric transmission engineers at work, and they laughed,. . . like it was a proposal from the 1920's when electrification first began. . . also, he predicted 1,000,000 robo taxis on the road, its been over 2 years, no robo taxi, because he blew believer smoke up listeners' a$$e$

The only long term safety issue with electric cars, is the battery and fire hazard. there have been about 150 documented Tesla battery fires, and the car is still on the road. There were about 2-3 Chevy bolt battery fires and the car was pulled by a responsible car mfg.

Quality EVs will come from the ICE car mfgs because they know how to mfg cars. . . and service cars. . . they have both the mfg, sales and service infrastructure available. I am not against EVs, will try to investment money in their supply chain as a growth opportunity. I encourage all you who are EV believers as well. So conflating Elon and EVs as a single topic is the cultist belief

MY problem is Elon's perpetuation of cultism of those who no longer think critically without experience, and the reality of finance, implementation scaling, quality and politics, as he is a charlatan of major proportions, . . . If you have tons of money with nothing to do, go for it. . . . If you want quality EV, look into the competitors' EVs and you might be very pleasantly surprised.

sportsguy

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Where is the Cybertruck?

Dude, keep up!

Tesla delays Cybertruck to late 2022; Elon Musk says it will be a ‘glitch in the Matrix’ - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2021/09/02/tesla-delays-cybertruck-late-2022/)

LOL! you will be lucky to get one with 17K pre ordered, I will wager you any dinner you want that you won't ever see your dream truck. . . but for a time line, you won't get yours before Jan1 , 2024

sportsguy

[Brad-tv]

But if there isn't enough raw materials to make safe batteries, EV won't scale. . . If you all think this will come true, you all should be investing in LIT, the lithium ETF, REMX, Rare Earth Metals, or Rare Earth Elements, and URA, or uranium which is the cleanest power production process yet, as the grid will need to have more power. Seriously, you will make lots of money, I have already, and it will continue. . . its a good 10-15% of my portfolio just for this reason.

Elon made electric vehicles sexy as a prototype, yes, whole heartedly agree, although he was not the founder of Tesla, he saw an opportunity and exploited the govt subsidies. Elon knows how to talk to make complex topics appear simple to lay people, and the lay people take it and try to reuse it to appear smart. Yes, I know first hand as he tried it in the electric utility on Linked In with a hand sketch diagram of proposed wires between houses as marketing for his roof shingles. I asked the electric transmission engineers at work, and they laughed,. . . like it was a proposal from the 1920's when electrification first began. . . also, he predicted 1,000,000 robo taxis on the road, its been over 2 years, no robo taxi, because he blew believer smoke up listeners' a$$e$

The only long term safety issue with electric cars, is the battery and fire hazard. there have been about 150 documented Tesla battery fires, and the car is still on the road. There were about 2-3 Chevy bolt battery fires and the car was pulled by a responsible car mfg.

Quality EVs will come from the ICE car mfgs because they know how to mfg cars. . . and service cars. . . they have both the mfg, sales and service infrastructure available. I am not against EVs, will try to investment money in their supply chain as a growth opportunity. I encourage all you who are EV believers as well. So conflating Elon and EVs as a single topic is the cultist belief

MY problem is Elon's perpetuation of cultism of those who no longer think critically without experience, and the reality of finance, implementation scaling, quality and politics, as he is a charlatan of major proportions, . . . If you have tons of money with nothing to do, go for it. . . . If you want quality EV, look into the competitors' EVs and you might be very pleasantly surprised.

sportsguy

Ok so it’s not that you hate EVs just Elon Musk I get it it. Did you or do you work for a car manufacturer ? I think Tesla is a amazing car maybe you never drove one? Can we pick apart things on Tesla sure we can pick apart on any OEM . I have a 2019 Chrysler Pacifica and the transmission shifts so hard it makes your whole body slam and they told me that’s normal get used to it. Every car I’ve ever owned has some sort of issue I can pick apart.
EV won’t scale? You see every car manufacturer in the world is investing billions on EVs.
Musk is a cofounder of Tesla and the largest shareholder and without Tesla/Musk no OEM’s would be changing their entire business model over to EVs and eliminating ICE vehicles. All of the critics said it couldn’t be done and laughed at him.
All of Elon’s time lines are off don’t know why he does that ?
Chevy Bolt is no comparison and all the fires happen when they are plugged in charging that’s scary especially in your garage. The Tesla fires well there was 190,000 ICE fires in 2019 and expected to be even more in 2020/2021
vs 150 Tesla fires ( if that’s correct?) . I feel safer in a Tesla! That includes arson,and other reasons unrelated to the vehicles like hitting structures driving too fast I’m sure ICE vehicles would have burned too. Quality vehicles will come from OEMS because they have the mfg sales and service sure in 5 years maybe? They are at least 5 years behind Tesla in technology and quality. Have you ever heard of Sandy Monroe? He just drove the Mustang E and it was pathetic compared to Tesla not to mention it look nothing like a Mustang? Check out his videos on YouTube he tests all the other OEMS EVs and they are way behind Tesla . Long way to go but I’m glad they’re doing it .
Pleasantly surprised by the big OEMS maybe in 5 years?
Again I don’t know why you hate Musk but he already made a million cars and that increase every year and as far as stocks go it’s a major winner.
A cult following yes that’s odd why people worship him? But give the man some respect he has changed the world and has many accomplishments besides Tesla. I don’t know how he juggles so many things but he does make a awesome car that most Tesla owners love and will remain loyal to the brand.

[Brad-tv]

But if there isn't enough raw materials to make safe batteries, EV won't scale. . . If you all think this will come true, you all should be investing in LIT, the lithium ETF, REMX, Rare Earth Metals, or Rare Earth Elements, and URA, or uranium which is the cleanest power production process yet, as the grid will need to have more power. Seriously, you will make lots of money, I have already, and it will continue. . . its a good 10-15% of my portfolio just for this reason.

Elon made electric vehicles sexy as a prototype, yes, whole heartedly agree, although he was not the founder of Tesla, he saw an opportunity and exploited the govt subsidies. Elon knows how to talk to make complex topics appear simple to lay people, and the lay people take it and try to reuse it to appear smart. Yes, I know first hand as he tried it in the electric utility on Linked In with a hand sketch diagram of proposed wires between houses as marketing for his roof shingles. I asked the electric transmission engineers at work, and they laughed,. . . like it was a proposal from the 1920's when electrification first began. . . also, he predicted 1,000,000 robo taxis on the road, its been over 2 years, no robo taxi, because he blew believer smoke up listeners' a$$e$

The only long term safety issue with electric cars, is the battery and fire hazard. there have been about 150 documented Tesla battery fires, and the car is still on the road. There were about 2-3 Chevy bolt battery fires and the car was pulled by a responsible car mfg.

Quality EVs will come from the ICE car mfgs because they know how to mfg cars. . . and service cars. . . they have both the mfg, sales and service infrastructure available. I am not against EVs, will try to investment money in their supply chain as a growth opportunity. I encourage all you who are EV believers as well. So conflating Elon and EVs as a single topic is the cultist belief

MY problem is Elon's perpetuation of cultism of those who no longer think critically without experience, and the reality of finance, implementation scaling, quality and politics, as he is a charlatan of major proportions, . . . If you have tons of money with nothing to do, go for it. . . . If you want quality EV, look into the competitors' EVs and you might be very pleasantly surprised.

sportsguy

Ok so it’s not that you hate EVs just Elon Musk I get it it. Did you or do you work for a car manufacturer ? I think Tesla is a amazing car maybe you never drove one? Can we pick apart things on Tesla sure we can pick apart on any OEM . I have a 2019 Chrysler Pacifica and the transmission shifts so hard it makes you whole body slam and they told me that’s normal get used to it. Every car I’ve ever owned has some sort of issue I can pick apart.
EV won’t scale? You see every car manufacturer in the world is investing billions on EVs.
Musk is a cofounder of Tesla and the largest shareholder and without Tesla/Musk no OEM’s would be changing their entire business model over to EVs and eliminating ICE vehicles. All of the critics said it couldn’t be done and laughed at him.
All of Elon’s time lines are off don’t know why he does that ?
Chevy Bolt is no comparison and all the fires happen when they are plugged in charging that’s scary especially in your garage. The Tesla fires well there was 190,000 ICE fires in 2019 and expected to be even more in 2020/2021
vs 150 Tesla fires ( if that’s correct?) . I feel safer in a Tesla! That includes arson,and other reasons unrelated to the vehicles like hitting structures driving too fast I’m sure ICE vehicles would have burned too. Quality vehicles will come from OEMS because they have the mfg sales and service sure in 5 years maybe? They are at least 5 years behind Tesla in technology and quality. Have you ever heard of Sandy Monroe? He just drove the Mustang E and it was pathetic compared to Tesla not to mention it look nothing like a Mustang? Check out his videos on YouTube he tests all the other OEMS EVs and they are way behind Tesla . Long way to go but I’m glad they’re doing it .
Pleasantly surprised by the big OEMS maybe in 5 years?
Again I don’t know why you hate Musk but he already made a million cars and that increases every year and as far as stocks go it’s a major winner.
A cult following yes that’s odd why people worship him? But give the man some respect he has changed the world and has many accomplishments besides Tesla. I don’t know how he juggles so many things but he does make a awesome car that most Tesla owners love and will remain loyal to the brand.

[MrFlorida]

What happens when there are 2 other people waiting for a charging station ? Fist fights ?

[Brad-tv]

What happens when there are 2 other people waiting for a charging station ? Fist fights ?

Maybe same thing happens at gas stations especially in a gas shortage sometimes worse than a fistfight

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Again I don’t know why you hate Musk but he already made a million cars and that increases every year and as far as stocks go it’s a major winner.

I don't do resulting, and EVs won't scale well because of battery components with known quantities available today, unless something else changes, which given R&D, may eventually happen. The same scale issue is hitting TV right now, with rural development of upper and middle class homes with not enough monopsony (local sole sourcing) employment to service the demand at large scale.

So read up on resulting, eloquently described in the introduction of the book, Thinking in Bets, by Annie Duke, former poker player. The corporate world loves resulting, but implementation and execution is what resulting analysis always forgets. . . as in the future is always uncertain, sometimes more uncertain than at other times. I work with both the strategy teams and the implementation teams in IT technology. . . technology speed scales very well, physical implementations not so much, ie, INTEL hit the maximum semi processor throughput with one processor, which is why increased processing speeds come from multiple processors (source an EMC semiconductor design engineer) . . . which is why Elon markets a physical car as a technology solution.

finance guy

[GrumpyOldMan]

There is definitely some truth to that rumor but we're actually subsidizing the car companies and not just the wealthy people because they can afford it anyway. It would make more sense to have a scalable rebate based on the price of a car, meaning that a car under $25,000 will get a higher rebate than a car that's $35,000 etc

I like that idea a lot.

[GrumpyOldMan]

What happens when there are 2 other people waiting for a charging station ? Fist fights ?

Why would it be any different than when there is a line at a gas station?

[GrumpyOldMan]

A cult following yes that’s odd why people worship him? But give the man some respect he has changed the world and has many accomplishments besides Tesla. I don’t know how he juggles so many things but he does make a awesome car that most Tesla owners love and will remain loyal to the brand.

Yup, a couple of hours ago he launched 4 civilians into space to a higher orbit than anyone has been in since Appolo. He does miss timelines, but he almost always makes up for it with stunning success.

[CoachKandSportsguy]

Yup, a couple of hours ago he launched 4 civilians into space to a higher orbit than anyone has been in since Appolo. He does miss timelines, but he almost always makes up for it with stunning success.

What does that have to do with the TESLA car?

Tesla’s Driver Fatality Rate is more than Triple that of Luxury Cars (and likely even higher) | by Midwestern Hedgie | Medium (https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17)

There are videos of a TESLA passing someone on a FL road, hitting a bump at 35 mph, losing control, hitting a tree and instant battery fire, 2 dead people. . . and very recently

The car has been built in tents and not at all the quality advertised or led to believe. the financial misrepresentations are blatant. . .

[CoachKandSportsguy]

The Lucid Air is the first electric car with a 520-mile EPA-rated range - The Verge (https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/16/22675936/lucid-motors-air-range-epa-rating-tesla)

Better battery design, going after the specialty market, but 500 Miles per charge and a $40,000 K price would be a car which most people would buy in the mass market. . .

Until then, just virtue signaling for the rich . . .

[Nucky]

Dude, keep up!

Tesla delays Cybertruck to late 2022; Elon Musk says it will be a ‘glitch in the Matrix’ - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2021/09/02/tesla-delays-cybertruck-late-2022/)

LOL! you will be lucky to get one with 17K pre ordered, I will wager you any dinner you want that you won't ever see your dream truck. . . but for a time line, you won't get yours before Jan1 , 2024

sportsguy

GEEZ, nice communicating with you! I'm gonna lay out between 50 & 70K for a toy and I never looked at any internet stories or YouTube stories. Thank's for filling me in with the details. At least now I know what's going on. :1rotfl:

Once you place the order they communicate with you often, straight from Tesla. It's great, you always know where you stand and are free to flee anytime you wish. I'm going to hang in there no matter how much time it takes.

I remember as a young man being a car nut having the feeling that I had to leave the dealership with whatever car I was after at the time. I'm not so young anymore and hope I'm around when the truck is ready.