Excessive Force?

[jebartle]

Yesterday Orlando Officer broke neck of 83 year old Vet. Officer stated that the man was drunk, during the course of their interaction, the officer felt "threatened". His reaction to this 83 year old, was to pick him up and body slam his head into concrete. If the officer had this much physical power, why didn't he just restrain him or call for back up, was this much "muscle" required? The lawyers are going to have a hay-day with this one!

[JimJoe]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-senior-injured-by-cop-20100920,0,4219619.story

[K9-Lovers]

Thanks for posting the article, Jim Joe. No comment from you? I'm interested to hear your take on this.

[Talk Host]

Let's not be too quick to condemn the officer. In my brief time as a deputy sheriff, I stopped a 79 year old drunk who was driving in the middle of the night on a main highway. He jumped out of the car and wrestled me to the ground in the middle of the road in the pitch darkness. Then to ad insult to injury he got the handcuffs away from me and threw them into the woods. When my backup arrived it took two of us to subdue him. To this day when I see the other officers they kid me about it. There was even a cartoon drawn about it and put in the newspaper.

One Sunday afternoon, I was on routine patrol and an oncoming car drifted into my lane, sideswiped my patrol car and then took off. I chased him for about 10 minutes and he finally stopped. He was 93 years old.

JLK

[r_foye]

I always love it when armchair police officers think just because someone is old that they don't present a threat. Some of the biggest A Holes I ever dealt with in my years as an officer were older folks. If I felt you presented a threat to me, you went down. Old, young, man, women, everyone got equal treatment. Those of you that have never walked a day in an officers shoes arent qualified to pass judgement. As am I not qualified to say that a doctor messed up, or a lawyer, etc.

[JimJoe]

Thanks for posting the article, Jim Joe. No comment from you? I'm interested to hear your take on this.

I was a prosecutor for 14 years and a defense attorney for 17 years.
The most important thing I learned is that without a complete video it can be difficult to find the truth. We just did our best.
ASSUMING everything in the article is correct, I think it was probably unnecessary to take that old man to the ground in that manner. The old man was probably drunk and unruly, but it is not difficult to subdue an 84 year old man.
I definitely would not charge the old man with felony assault on a police officer. They are just asking for second lawsuit on that arrest in addition to the excessive force claim if they follow that path. Public intox would be the better charge. I know from personal experience that officers act badly on occasion, so every situation is on a case by case basis.

I must say that in those situations where excessive force is used as seen on some videos on youtube, not only should the officer be fired, and charged, but so should the officers who directly witnessed it and did nothing to stop it. I am most frustrated where officers who are sworn to uphold the law do not stop a fellow officer from breaking it.

[JimJoe]

I always love it when armchair police officers think just because someone is old that they don't present a threat. Some of the biggest A Holes I ever dealt with in my years as an officer were older folks. If I felt you presented a threat to me, you went down. Old, young, man, women, everyone got equal treatment. Those of you that have never walked a day in an officers shoes arent qualified to pass judgement. As am I not qualified to say that a doctor messed up, or a lawyer, etc.

You treated everyone the same? I hope not. Officers are supposed to use no more force than is necessary. It takes a lot more force to subdue an NFL lineman than it does for an 84 year old man or a small child!!
I rode with officers all the time when I was both a prosecutor and a defense attorney for 31 years. I have seen hundreds of police car videos. It is very easy to spot the ones with common sense and the ones that are just plain bullies. AND I do not like the bullies. Don't think officers can be bullies? Search youtube for police brutality.
JJ

[Gator Fan]

spoken like a true defense attorney

[tkret]

You treated everyone the same? I hope not. Officers are supposed to use no more force than is necessary. It takes a lot more force to subdue an NFL lineman than it does for an 84 year old man or a small child!!
I rode with officers all the time when I was both a prosecutor and a defense attorney for 31 years. I have seen hundreds of police car videos. It is very easy to spot the ones with common sense and the ones that are just plain bullies. AND I do not like the bullies. Don't think officers can be bullies? Search youtube for police brutality.
JJ
This Officer has been investigated by Internal Affairs 3 times in 21 months! A family member of mine spent 27 years with the NYPD and was investigated zero times.

[r_foye]

You treated everyone the same? I hope not. Officers are supposed to use no more force than is necessary. It takes a lot more force to subdue an NFL lineman than it does for an 84 year old man or a small child!!
I rode with officers all the time when I was both a prosecutor and a defense attorney for 31 years. I have seen hundreds of police car videos. It is very easy to spot the ones with common sense and the ones that are just plain bullies. AND I do not like the bullies. Don't think officers can be bullies? Search youtube for police brutality.
JJ

Of course police officers can be bullies, just like defense attorneys can find bull crap excuses for defending killers and child molesters. Of course being an attorney you know exactly how much force it takes to control an old man. I HAVE arrested an NFL lineman and old men, and I found I did not think about someones age when I was fighting with them.

[brostholder]

There are a number of things here that are disturbing. A man was drunk, illegally parked, and being verbally and physically threatening to a police officer. Normally I would say that he got what he deserved. But he was 84 years old and the officer has had 3 run-ins with internal affairs in the last 2 years. I think we have seen what happens when drunk meets stupid! The man should have been arrested for public intoxication and disorderly conduct and for assaulting a police officer. The Orlando Police Department needs to reevaluate if this officer has the correct temperament to use the amount of force that fits the situation, or else they need to increase their insurance coverage.

[JimJoe]

Of course police officers can be bullies, just like defense attorneys can find bull crap excuses for defending killers and child molesters. Of course being an attorney you know exactly how much force it takes to control an old man. I HAVE arrested an NFL lineman and old men, and I found I did not think about someones age when I was fighting with them.

It just takes common sense.

I am sure you are right that it took as much force to fight the old man as the NFL lineman.
That is why NFL linemen are all old men like that 84 year old man pictured in the Orlando Sentinal article. Get Real.
JJ

[JimJoe]

There are a number of things here that are disturbing. A man was drunk, illegally parked, and being verbally and physically threatening to a police officer. Normally I would say that he got what he deserved. But he was 84 years old and the officer has had 3 run-ins with internal affairs in the last 2 years. I think we have seen what happens when drunk meets stupid! The man should have been arrested for public intoxication and disorderly conduct and for assaulting a police officer. The Orlando Police Department needs to reevaluate if this officer has the correct temperament to use the amount of force that fits the situation, or else they need to increase their insurance coverage.

Good common sense points.
The police will lose a lawsuit or their insurance will settle big. The problem is the tax payers will pay the claim and or the increased insurance premium. Common sense could have avoided this terrible outcome.

[bkcunningham1]

Updating the first story. From Tuesday's Orlando Sentinel.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-senior-injured-by-cop-20100920,0,3993144,full.story

[Talk Host]

I think the picture of the guy in the hospital, in a neck brace, with this mouth hanging open is a journalistic attempt at trying to convict the officer in the court of public opinion. I'm sure they'll be wheeling him out on the "Today" show soon.

Anybody who has not been a policeman (including attorneys) doesn't know what it's like out there in the battle zone.

That is exactly the reason I quit after 4 years. There was an opportunity for me to get hurt or killed at every bend in the road. And we weren't trained as well as cops are today.

BTW, twos of the three internal affairs investigations of this cop were for damage to vehicles, not physical encounters.

[billds567]

As a former Internal Affairs investigator I found that those officers that were never investigated didn't do much work either. A good cop will genearate some complaints.
I'll not defend this officer here, I wasn't there nor did I speak to witnesses, but I can say that one of the most difficult arrests I made was a 98 lb. woman who kicked out my windshield. It took 4 of us to get her in custody.

[otherbruddaDarrell]

There are always two sides to every story. Just because someone is old does not mean they aren't dangerous.
During defensive tactics training an officer is taught take down procedures. Training kicks in when a percieved threat to the officer occures.
What if he had used a taser? possible heart attack?
What if the officer was more gentle and had his weapon taken away?
We were not there and I don't think either one will come out smelling like a rose.
When you get in to a pi--ing contest with a skunk you are going to come out smelling bad.

[Sparky-30]

As a retired Police Officer, sounded like the Officer was attempting a yoke hold on the guy, but something went wrong. A yoke hold done proper can subdue anyone, the arm temporarily cutting off the blood to the neck artery causing wooziness or temp. blackout without anyone getting hurt, we were all taught that in the Police Academy. Some police officers spend their entire careers looking the other way to avoid any trouble, others do their jobs and suffer the consequences. You will find the most case solving officers will have many complaints in their file, Its just the way it is.

NOW, WITH THAT SAID, I ENCOURAGE ANYONE AND EVERYONE TO VOLUNTEER TO GO ON THE RIDE ALONG PROGRAM,.......NOT ONCE, BUT MANY TIMES, YOU WILL GET YOUR EYES OPENED UP TO A NEW WORLD.