A Third of Covid Survivors Have Long Haul Symptoms

[coffeebean]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

[golfing eagles]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

Maybe.

Here is the byline from the article cited:

By Dennis Thompson
HealthDay Reporter

Hardly a bastion of medical science, even though the article also appeared on WebMD.

Also note the so called symptoms are fatigue and brain fog
I just have to wonder how many developed "fatigue and brain fog" when asked to give up their "pay for staying home" and return to work.

Yes, I know that is somewhat cynical, but I can't imagine it doesn't happen.

Then again, it may be 100% correct----we just don't know, and therefore the subject will be a target for extreme ideas.

[Altavia]

I have a number of very heathy, actively working younger friends and family suffering from degrees of long hauler effects so that article seems rational to me.

[Mortal1]

An article that only uses a minute percentage of actual covid infected people is not a reliable source for the information the article proposes. Were they asked if they experienced these "long term" issues before they got covid? I would also want to know who funds this magazine. Lastly it has only been a year or so since the first Americans got covid and that is hardly long term as many who get pneumonia without covid experience issue up to a year or more. Many hip, knee, should replacement recipients also have proven long term effects.

I never just get one side of things and expect it to be the gods honest truth. In this day and age a person must question any result based on such a small sampling...unless, of course, they only care to hear one side of an issue.

It would seem the only reason for your post is to convince those who haven't had the vaccine do so because you just care so much as to what they could, might, may experience without the vaccine. I don't believe that is the actual reason.

[golfing eagles]

I have a number of very heathy, actively working younger friends and family suffering from degrees of long hauler effects so that article seems rational to me.

And again, maybe

There is no way to quantify fatigue, brain fog and loss of taste/smell. It is 100% subjective. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means we don't know

It's sort of like the guy in a car accident complaining of back pain and can't work. His x-rays, CT and MRI are all negative, the neurologist finds nothing objective, neither does the orthopedist. So now he goes to 2 places----a chiropractor (yuk) and Dan Newlin while he applies for SSDI. He goes to court for disability with testimony from the chiropractor (again yuk), conveniently not presenting the x rays, CTs, MRIs, nor the opinion of the orthopedist or neurologist as evidence. The judge then grants him disability, and the rest of us are supporting him for the rest of his life (or until age 65).
The last one of these I got drawn into I later saw working on the roof of a building hauling 75 pound bundles of shingles up a 20 foot ladder.

So the moral of the story is we still don't know. But from experience, I always look at these cases where there is substantial secondary gain with a jaded eye.

[NotGolfer]

I have brain fog and fatigue----BUT mine comes from having rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia. I've had these for a number of years. NOW to go read the article.....yep, I read it. It wasn't a conclusive finding from my perspective.

[John41]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

The study was from the JAMA so it has credibility although the sample size 177 would not be large enough for 6 sigma standard deviation reliability.

[golfing eagles]

The study was from the JAMA so it has credibility although the sample size 177 would not be large enough for 6 sigma standard deviation reliability.

Actually, JAMA doesn't do studies, they publish them. Part of the source for the article cited was a small study done at the Univ. of Washington, and the principal investigator/researcher was a woman with a BS. They also spoke with a few MDs.
Again, interesting, but hardly conclusive. Stay tuned.

SOURCES: Jennifer Logue, BS, research scientist, division of allergy and infectious diseases, department of medicine, University of Washington, Seattle; Kristin Englund, MD, infectious disease specialist, Cleveland Clinic, Ohio; David Hirschwerk, MD, attending infectious disease doctor, Northwell Health, Manhasset, N.Y.; Thomas Gut, DO, associate chair, medicine, and director, ambulatory care services, Staten Island University Hospital, New York City; Ravindra Ganesh, MBBS, MD, internist, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.; JAMA Network Open, Feb. 19, 2021, online

[coffeebean]

Stanley, this one is for you (from that same thread that was CLOSED............

Post-COVID syndrome severely damages children's hearts: 'Immense inflammation' causing cardiac blood vessel dilation -- ScienceDaily (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200904125111.htm)

[stanley]

Stanley, this one is for you (from that same thread that was CLOSED............

Post-COVID syndrome severely damages children's hearts: 'Immense inflammation' causing cardiac blood vessel dilation -- ScienceDaily (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200904125111.htm)


Why are you rehashing a thread that was closed? The Mods had a reason for it. I think you are just trying to stir the pot again(as always) I'm done arguing about the "vaccine" and the dreaded "covid". It's not getting anyone, especially me, to change their minds.

[golfing eagles]

Stanley, this one is for you (from that same thread that was CLOSED............

Post-COVID syndrome severely damages children's hearts: 'Immense inflammation' causing cardiac blood vessel dilation -- ScienceDaily (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200904125111.htm)

From the original article that "science daily" took it's info:

While the RCPCH definition of PIMS-TS recognizes the temporal association with COVID-19, it does not require proof of infection or exposure to meet the case definition

So, in other words, we just don't know if there is an association or not

[Byte1]

Since none of this is conclusive, I consider the jury still out. I know over a dozen folks that have survived Covid. I know of two that did not. Those two definitely have "brain fog and fatigue." It's permanent. Of the dozen in my family that have survived Covid (easier than a common cold) none of them have reported any lasting symptoms or side effects. Of course, they are all younger than 50 yo.
I will NOT encourage my grandchildren or any school age children to get the Covid vaccination. Why? Because even though I got mine (for my spouse) I do not put much confidence in a vaccination where folks do not believe in it enough to quit wearing their masks or associate with those that are maskless, after they have been vaccinated. The second reason for not wishing the children of school age to get the Covid vaccination, is that the virus is very seldom fatal. As a matter of fact, it is less fatal than the Flu to children. Pretty sure of that statement, but I am not an expert. As with anything else posted on here, I have my opinion. How can anyone in good confidence encourage children to get the vaccination when they adamantly state that they will not take a cruise on a cruiseline that will allow unvaccinated to board the ship. If you do not have faith in your vaccination, how can you push children to get it? I keep hearing on here over and over how you are afraid of the maskless, unvaccinated and believe they should be forced to get the vaccination. If you are that scared then why did you get vaccinated? DO you really think that you will catch it?
I don't know about any long term after or lingering effects that covid may present, but if true then it has to be man made and someone needs to pay dearly for causing it. Even if it came from China or in our own backyard. It wouldn't be the first time a major scare came from our Gov. Remember Ft Detrick, MD and the anthrax scare?

[butlerperkins@gmail.com]

2021 0609 Wednesday @ 12:51
I have been "on the fence" about the COVID shots since they were first announced. As I type this, my significant other has her back to me; she is working. She has received two shots. I haven't had anything - yet. However, I write to say how immensely appreciative I am of all of you; you, who waffle back and forth; those of you who have been "jabbed"; those of you who have not been "jabbed". I hear such strong "arguments" for both "sides". This decision is a tough one for me: new science and faith vs "bad" science and doubt.

Note: I am thankful to the moderators who do allow this topic to pop up again and again. I read them to <learn>; to "listen", to help me make my choice. Til then, I mask and I keep as much distance as possible.

[Velvet]

Why are you rehashing a thread that was closed? The Mods had a reason for it. I think you are just trying to stir the pot again(as always) I'm done arguing about the "vaccine" and the dreaded "covid". It's not getting anyone, especially me, to change their minds.

Sorry to disagree. I am interested in this conversation.

[JMintzer]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

So you decided to break forum rules?

"USERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIRECT COMMENTS TOWARD ANOTHER USER."

But since you want to play...

Are you familiar with the definition of the word "could"? Or "for a few months"?

Hardly "long haulers"

And finally, getting your info from WebMD is folly, at best... Pretty much every symptom "could be" cancer...

[JMintzer]

The study was from the JAMA so it has credibility although the sample size 177 would not be large enough for 6 sigma standard deviation reliability.

Right... And the articles that Lancet had to retract helped their credibility...

Just because a Medical Journal publishes something doesn't mean it's gospel...

[JMintzer]

Since none of this is conclusive, I consider the jury still out. I know over a dozen folks that have survived Covid. I know of two that did not. Those two definitely have "brain fog and fatigue." It's permanent.

When did they contract Covid and how do you know "it's permanent"?

My wife lost taste and smell. It lasted about a week...

Me? No short/long term symptoms... Just a slight fever and body ache for 36 hrs...

We both had Covid well over a year ago...

[Becca9800]

When did they contract Covid and how do you know "it's permanent"?

My wife lost taste and smell. It lasted about a week...

Me? No short/long term symptoms... Just a slight fever and body ache for 36 hrs...

We both had Covid well over a year ago...

The 2 w permanent brain fog died. Now, about those hospital administrators and billing clerks diagnosing covid.....?

[coffeebean]

Why are you rehashing a thread that was closed? The Mods had a reason for it. I think you are just trying to stir the pot again(as always) I'm done arguing about the "vaccine" and the dreaded "covid". It's not getting anyone, especially me, to change their minds.

I didn't get to read most of the thread while it was open. You asked for a link. I gave it to you. Why so upset?

[stanley]

I didn't get to read most the thread while it was open. You asked for a link. I gave it to you. Why so upset?

What makes you think I'm "upset"? Far from that ............I'm OK with my life and my decisions of said life, while others seem to always need, strive, ad nauseam, for justification.

[coffeebean]

So you decided to break forum rules?

"USERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIRECT COMMENTS TOWARD ANOTHER USER."

But since you want to play...

Are you familiar with the definition of the word "could"? Or "for a few months"?

Hardly "long haulers"

And finally, getting your info from WebMD is folly, at best... Pretty much every symptom "could be" cancer...

I didn't realize I broke any rules but thank you for informing me. I'm ready to go to the naughty room.

[coffeebean]

From the original article that "science daily" took it's info:

While the RCPCH definition of PIMS-TS recognizes the temporal association with COVID-19, it does not require proof of infection or exposure to meet the case definition

So, in other words, we just don't know if there is an association or not

Thanks GE. I always appreciate your knowledge and expertise.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

And again, maybe

There is no way to quantify fatigue, brain fog and loss of taste/smell. It is 100% subjective. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means we don't know

It's sort of like the guy in a car accident complaining of back pain and can't work. His x-rays, CT and MRI are all negative, the neurologist finds nothing objective, neither does the orthopedist. So now he goes to 2 places----a chiropractor (yuk) and Dan Newlin while he applies for SSDI. He goes to court for disability with testimony from the chiropractor (again yuk), conveniently not presenting the x rays, CTs, MRIs, nor the opinion of the orthopedist or neurologist as evidence. The judge then grants him disability, and the rest of us are supporting him for the rest of his life (or until age 65).
The last one of these I got drawn into I later saw working on the roof of a building hauling 75 pound bundles of shingles up a 20 foot ladder.

So the moral of the story is we still don't know. But from experience, I always look at these cases where there is substantial secondary gain with a jaded eye.

If he's caught, he is brought up on disability fraud and made to pay back every single cent he received for disability.

Happened to someone we know. The guy injured his back. The injury was legit, the back problem was legit. He had surgery, and received disability for years. But someone who knew him, was in the area investigating a different disability case, and saw him - working on his roof.

It got reported, the person we know pleaded no contest, and spent the next 20 years paying back all the disability he wasn't entitled to receive. No jail time since it was the first and only time he'd ever gotten in trouble with the law.

[Northwoods]

I had COVID (mild symptoms) and I also got the vaccine. I didn't get the vaccine because I was "afraid" of COVID, I got it because I felt all my friends who were vaccinated and never had COVID would be more comfortable with me if I got the vaccine.

Let me also say I had a close family member who died from COVID.

After getting the vaccine, if I thought I could get COVID, be hospitalized, and potentially die from COVID, why would I get the vaccine???

I don't care if people choose not to get the vaccine. It's their choice and their risk. Because I was vaccinated, I don't think an unvaccinated person is of any risk to me.

I don't understand why vaccinated people are so insistent about people getting the vaccine.

[JMintzer]

The 2 w permanent brain fog died. Now, about those hospital administrators and billing clerks diagnosing covid.....?

Well, I guess it's permanent for them (sadly)... But it doesn't prove it's permanent for anyone else...

And what about those admins and billing clerks? I supplied a link on that topic...

[JMintzer]

I didn't get to read most of the thread while it was open. You asked for a link. I gave it to you. Why so upset?

Closing a thread isn't removing a thread. I just means no one else can post on it...

Feel free to take your time and peruse what was posted (links included)...

[Becca9800]

Well, I guess it's permanent for them (sadly)... But it doesn't prove it's permanent for anyone else...

And what about those admins and billing clerks? I supplied a link on that topic...

Please provide that link again, it is not included in the now closed thread. I'm sincerely interested in understanding why/how you could make such a claim.

[stanley]

Closing a thread isn't removing a thread. I just means no one else can post on it...

Feel free to take your time and peruse what was posted (links included)...

Thanks

[Altavia]

.
...

I don't care if people choose not to get the vaccine. It's their choice and their risk. Because I was vaccinated, I don't think an unvaccinated person is of any risk to me.
...



Yes but another reason to get vaccinated is to help protect those who can not.

[JakeInTV]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

I'm fatigued alright - of these seemingly endless inane debates about the vaccine. It used to be don't discuss politics or religion. In The Villages, it expanded to debating electric vs. gas golf carts, and snowbirds. Now it's pro vs. con masks/vaccines. I have yet to find anyone who has changed their minds. So is this not just another exercise in futility, and a waste of spending one's remaining retirement years?

[banjobob]

I read your link, seems 177 is a very small sample they projected that result to millions who had been infected. Seems sketchy research to me.

[RICH1]

The Chinese are well aware of this, they have been studying this in Wuhan for years! They also are loving how most governments manage the Pandemic!

[Girlcopper]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)
Unless covid affected you or family, who cares? Why do you need percentages? Do you need percentages of the after effects of pneumonia, cancer, etc Covid is here! Live your life and move on. Deal with it when you get it

[Eg_cruz]

Maybe.

Here is the byline from the article cited:

By Dennis Thompson
HealthDay Reporter

Hardly a bastion of medical science, even though the article also appeared on WebMD.

Also note the so called symptoms are fatigue and brain fog
I just have to wonder how many developed "fatigue and brain fog" when asked to give up their "pay for staying home" and return to work.

Yes, I know that is somewhat cynical, but I can't imagine it doesn't happen.

Then again, it may be 100% correct----we just don't know, and therefore the subject will be a target for extreme ideas.
Really…… obviously you don’t know what you’re talking about. This is really I know because my daughter has been suffering with this since January (yes she works) been to the doctors countless time to get IV bags and B12 shots. This has really taken a toll on her.
So shhhh about what you don’t know.

[Eg_cruz]

And again, maybe

There is no way to quantify fatigue, brain fog and loss of taste/smell. It is 100% subjective. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means we don't know

It's sort of like the guy in a car accident complaining of back pain and can't work. His x-rays, CT and MRI are all negative, the neurologist finds nothing objective, neither does the orthopedist. So now he goes to 2 places----a chiropractor (yuk) and Dan Newlin while he applies for SSDI. He goes to court for disability with testimony from the chiropractor (again yuk), conveniently not presenting the x rays, CTs, MRIs, nor the opinion of the orthopedist or neurologist as evidence. The judge then grants him disability, and the rest of us are supporting him for the rest of his life (or until age 65).
The last one of these I got drawn into I later saw working on the roof of a building hauling 75 pound bundles of shingles up a 20 foot ladder.

So the moral of the story is we still don't know. But from experience, I always look at these cases where there is substantial secondary gain with a jaded eye.
For someone who does not know you sure have a lot of opinions on the subject.
Why speak of someone you have no first hand experience with.
I have 3 family members (yes they all work) who have long-term effects from the virus.
Guess this is what happens when a virus is made in a lab.

[dewilson58]

Why speak of someone you have no first hand experience with.
I have 3 family members (yes they all work) who have long-term effects from the virus.
.

My neighbor is still experiencing effects from the virus.
Not sure of the definition of "long-term"...............but he is coming up on a year.
He was the picture of good health & fitness.
:pray:

[golfing eagles]

Really…… obviously you don’t know what you’re talking about. This is really I know because my daughter has been suffering with this since January (yes she works) been to the doctors countless time to get IV bags and B12 shots. This has really taken a toll on her.
So shhhh about what you don’t know.

For someone who does not know you sure have a lot of opinions on the subject.
Why speak of someone you have no first hand experience with.
I have 3 family members (yes they all work) who have long-term effects from the virus.
Guess this is what happens when a virus is made in a lab.

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.

[scottiesrgreat@gmail.com]

Please close this thread. I truly feel sorry for you all that just can’t seem move on - you will always find some scary article somewhere on the internet - that you will use to perpetuate your need to keep people in some kind of fear and despair ….. I hope history will be able to shed light on what causes people like you to have this desire to get some sort of personal gratification out of fear-mongering. We have always had threats to deal with and we will have threats in the future to address and conquer ….. get over it!!!! This is life. We live and we die (yes - we die - there is no way to avoid it). I think living in fear with a huge dark cloud over your head and forcing your dark cloud on others is so much more detrimental to society than Covid ever was…..

I pray people get up this morning and be thankful for what they have and what they have had….. focus on the beauty that we can enjoy each day - cherish the memories of days that have passed.

[lkagele]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

Washington State legalized marijuana many years ago. It's the pot.......

[drducat]

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.

So...What do you think of this study from Japan. Granted it covers the vaccine... however...would this apply also to the long term issues with the virus with sleen, liver, etc retaining the spike protein? https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf

[golfing eagles]

So...What do you think of this study from Japan. Granted it covers the vaccine... however...would this apply also to the long term issues with the virus with sleen, liver, etc retaining the spike protein? https://files.catbox.moe/0vwcmj.pdf

No. It's a description of the pharmacokinetics of the vaccine (AVD, metabolism, excretion, tissue penetration, etc.). It does not address anything clinical at all. Looks like it might be information that Pfizer pharmacists and molecular geneticists put out as part of their bid to get full FDA approval (although I doubt the radioimmunoflourescence study in 6 rats will pass the committee

[Altavia]

Just sharing another pre-peer reviewed (limited) data point - information only.

COVID affects nearly all organs
A pre-peer reviewed study examined tissue samples from autopsies of patients who passed away from COVID, and found that SARS-CoV-2 was present in nearly all organs.

This helps explain how multiple organ systems are affected in severe COVID. Read at medRxiv.

Multisystemic cellular tropism of SARS-CoV-2 in autopsies of COVID-19 patients | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.03.21258241v1)

[golfing eagles]

Just sharing another pre-peer reviewed (limited) data point - information only.

COVID affects nearly all organs
A pre-peer reviewed study examined tissue samples from autopsies of patients who passed away from COVID, and found that SARS-CoV-2 was present in nearly all organs.

This helps explain how multiple organ systems are affected in severe COVID. Read at medRxiv.

Multisystemic cellular tropism of SARS-CoV-2 in autopsies of COVID-19 patients | medRxiv (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.03.21258241v1)

Not really.

First of all, there is a big difference between "present" and "affected" In fact, the following quote from the article states that clearly:

"Interpretation: SARS-CoV-2 could be observed in virtually all organs, colocalizing with ACE2 and TMPRSS2 mainly in epithelial but also in mesenchymal and endothelial cells, and viral replication was found across all organ systems. Apart from the respiratory tract, no specific (histo-)morphologic alterations could be assigned to the SARS-CoV-2 infection."

There is a big difference between the epithelial and endothelial cells of an organ vs. the parenchymal cells

Second, this was an autopsy study on a small number of individuals, and represented the sickest of the sick. (But I doubt anyone who tested positive without any symptoms would volunteer to have their organs cut up for comparison:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:)

[Petersweeney]

And again, maybe

There is no way to quantify fatigue, brain fog and loss of taste/smell. It is 100% subjective. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means we don't know

It's sort of like the guy in a car accident complaining of back pain and can't work. His x-rays, CT and MRI are all negative, the neurologist finds nothing objective, neither does the orthopedist. So now he goes to 2 places----a chiropractor (yuk) and Dan Newlin while he applies for SSDI. He goes to court for disability with testimony from the chiropractor (again yuk), conveniently not presenting the x rays, CTs, MRIs, nor the opinion of the orthopedist or neurologist as evidence. The judge then grants him disability, and the rest of us are supporting him for the rest of his life (or until age 65).
The last one of these I got drawn into I later saw working on the roof of a building hauling 75 pound bundles of shingles up a 20 foot ladder.

So the moral of the story is we still don't know. But from experience, I always look at these cases where there is substantial secondary gain with a jaded eye.

If you ever get selected for jury duty please tell the judge how you feel about these cases and they will give you a free rid home….

[JMintzer]

Please provide that link again, it is not included in the now closed thread. I'm sincerely interested in understanding why/how you could make such a claim.

Here is a quote from the article (Link to entire article posted below)...

"Inpatient novel coronavirus (COVID-19) claims will require a positive viral test result to be eligible for the 20% increase in the MS-DRG weighting factor, effective for admissions on or after September 1. The test must be performed within 14 days of admission, and the results must be documented in the patient’s medical record."

Notice they said ON or AFTER September 1... Before that, no positive test was required. Only an assumption of Covid...

CMS Will Require Positive COVID-19 Test Results for Increased Inpatient Payment | HealthLeaders Media (https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/revenue-cycle/cms-will-require-positive-covid-19-test-results-increased-inpatient-payment-0)

[JMintzer]

For someone who does not know you sure have a lot of opinions on the subject.
Why speak of someone you have no first hand experience with.
I have 3 family members (yes they all work) who have long-term effects from the virus.
Guess this is what happens when a virus is made in a lab.

For someone who does not know...

[Andyb]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

It would be interesting to know the deaths and adverse effects of the “vaccine” as well. I understand that some of that information is being censored, so I’m not sure we can get the true answers. It may be to early determine any long term effects too?

[JMintzer]

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.

Did prescribe a salve for that burn? :bigbow:

[JMintzer]

It would be interesting to know the deaths and adverse effects of the “vaccine” as well. I understand that some of that information is being censored, so I’m not sure we can get the true answers. It may be to early determine any long term effects too?

Of course it's too early...

It hasn't been around "long term" yet...

[golfing eagles]

If you ever get selected for jury duty please tell the judge how you feel about these cases and they will give you a free rid home….

I certainly hope so. But as a medical expert, neither attorney would ever fail to exclude me during voir dire

[golfing eagles]

Did prescribe a salve for that burn? :bigbow:

To be fair, I think he loves his daughter and is unhappy that she has some symptomatology regardless of cause. Unfortunately, he rushed to his keyboard without realizing that he was so far out of my league that he wasn't even playing the same game.
It's OK, I can understand that. He was coming from a very narrow perspective and can't see the big picture.

[Joe C.]

Don't believe everything you read. It's like reading this forum. If you believed everything on this forum, you'd be a an idiot. I take everything I hear and read with a "grain of salt".

[scottiesrgreat@gmail.com]

My neighbor is still experiencing effects from the virus.
Not sure of the definition of "long-term"...............but he is coming up on a year.
He was the picture of good health & fitness.
:pray:

When was it ever expected - thru the history of humankind - that people in their 50s, 60s, 70s+++ were expected to live lives free of physical discomfort and health issues? Goodness - every cold, bout of the flu, cancer diagnosis, stiff joints, cataracts, heart attack, stroke, etc……- will in many cases - now be blamed on Covid….. goodness - what caused all these things pre-covid?

[dewilson58]

When was it ever expected - thru the history of humankind - that people in their 50s, 60s, 70s+++ were expected to live lives free of physical discomfort and health issues?

Never said it was expected.

What a stupid post.

[BlackHarley]

Unfortunately I've fallen victim to a common and measurable disease....
CRAFT's disease. It's by no way caused by Covid-19, simply too many years of fun! BTW, CRAFT's disease is an acronym for Can't Remember A F*****g Thing.....lol

[golfing eagles]

Never said it was expected.

What a stupid post.

I don't think his post was "stupid"

I think it fits better into the category of "Captain Obvious says...":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

Unfortunately I've fallen victim to a common and measurable disease....
CRAFTS disease. It's by no way caused by Covid-19, simply too many years of fun! BTW, CRAFT,s disease is an acronym for Can't Remember A F*****g Thing.....lol

Yes, but there are those, even some on this site, that will blame your symptoms on the "brain fog" of "long haul" COVID-19

[oneclickplus]

Stanley, this one is for you (from that same thread that was CLOSED............

Post-COVID syndrome severely damages children's hearts: 'Immense inflammation' causing cardiac blood vessel dilation -- ScienceDaily (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/09/200904125111.htm)

And we also have teens having heart problems AFTER getting the shot (not a vaccine). So, it is reasonable for someone to make the decision to steer clear of the shot.

[Becca9800]

Here is a quote from the article (Link to entire article posted below)...

"Inpatient novel coronavirus (COVID-19) claims will require a positive viral test result to be eligible for the 20% increase in the MS-DRG weighting factor, effective for admissions on or after September 1. The test must be performed within 14 days of admission, and the results must be documented in the patient’s medical record."

Notice they said ON or AFTER September 1... Before that, no positive test was required. Only an assumption of Covid... Yes, so noted. But neither the Hospital Administrators nor billing clerks can add a Covid diagnosis, assumed or proven, to a patient's medical record, that comes from the doc. And a signed order from a doc/authorized designee is required for any testing, including Covid testing. Hospital admins don't routinely access medical records, and billing clerks (coders) bill only based on the documentation in the record. Compliance is my gig, I know that's how it works. So I'm still not understanding why you don't blame physicians, instead blaming hospital admin and billing clerks for the Covid dx.

CMS Will Require Positive COVID-19 Test Results for Increased Inpatient Payment | HealthLeaders Media (https://www.healthleadersmedia.com/revenue-cycle/cms-will-require-positive-covid-19-test-results-increased-inpatient-payment-0)

From your article: "However, organizations should prepare to comply with the new requirement by September 1. Organizations must ensure processes are in place to obtain accurate test results for all COVID-19 admissions. Clinical, HIM, CDI, and billing staff should be informed of the change, and coders and CDI specialists should query for missing test results. Organizations may need to review processes for obtaining test results from outside entities and should consider processes for holding inpatient COVID-19 claims that are pending test results. Organizations should reach out to their MACs to discuss operational and technical questions." Or are you suggesting hospital administration should not seek out permissible payments? No way, I don't think that's what you meant, you'd never pass up the same opportunity within your business (i.e. private practice).

[dewilson58]

I don't think his post was "stupid" I think it fits better into the category of "Captain Obvious says...":1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

...

[JMintzer]

From your article: "However, organizations should prepare to comply with the new requirement by September 1. Organizations must ensure processes are in place to obtain accurate test results for all COVID-19 admissions. Clinical, HIM, CDI, and billing staff should be informed of the change, and coders and CDI specialists should query for missing test results. Organizations may need to review processes for obtaining test results from outside entities and should consider processes for holding inpatient COVID-19 claims that are pending test results. Organizations should reach out to their MACs to discuss operational and technical questions." Or are you suggesting hospital administration should not seek out permissible payments? No way, I don't think that's what you meant, you'd never pass up the same opportunity within your business (i.e. private practice).

I've not read a single thing regarding "post-payment review" of covid payments...

And yes, I was referring to the first 6 months of the outbreak, where everything was deemed to be covid...

[Dbraisted]

No related symptoms here post covid.

[Becca9800]

where everything was deemed to be covid...

Yes, and so deemed by physicians! So what are you blaming hospital admins and billing clerks for? Your original post suggested questionable activity on their parts, and it just ain't so. I do understand the hospital/physician politics, always a love/hate relationship. But I bristle that your followers believe that administrators and billing clerks are responsible for everyone being diagnosed w covid. And they will believe what you wrote, you are a respected voice on this forum. I think I've made my point, we can drop this line of discussion. It's been fun though, thank you for your always respectful responses.

[JMintzer]

Yes, and so deemed by physicians! So what are you blaming hospital admins and billing clerks for? Your original post suggested questionable activity on their parts, and it just ain't so. I do understand the hospital/physician politics, always a love/hate relationship. But I bristle that your followers believe that administrators and billing clerks are responsible for everyone being diagnosed w covid. And they will believe what you wrote, you are a respected voice on this forum. I think I've made my point, we can drop this line of discussion. It's been fun though, thank you for your always respectful responses.

I'm respected? Well, shame on you! ;)

But yes, administrators/billing depts are most definitely trying to find ways to maximize charges, including changing diagnoses...

I've seen it in person... And I've seen the arguments that ensued...

[scottiesrgreat@gmail.com]

What a stupid post.

It says a lot about someone when all they can say about your post is that it was “stupid” hahhahaha

[oneclickplus]

2021 0609 Wednesday @ 12:51
I have been "on the fence" about the COVID shots since they were first announced. As I type this, my significant other has her back to me; she is working. She has received two shots. I haven't had anything - yet. However, I write to say how immensely appreciative I am of all of you; you, who waffle back and forth; those of you who have been "jabbed"; those of you who have not been "jabbed". I hear such strong "arguments" for both "sides". This decision is a tough one for me: new science and faith vs "bad" science and doubt.

Note: I am thankful to the moderators who do allow this topic to pop up again and again. I read them to <learn>; to "listen", to help me make my choice. Til then, I mask and I keep as much distance as possible.

Well, keep in mind that after the human trials (on most of the US population and much of the world) are finished, you can always decide to get the shot if that's what you want. However, if you get the shot now and find out later (when the trials are done) that there is a major downside, you can't "un-get" it.
.
By the way, it has been determined now that I had COVID-19 in February 2020 (anti-body test). My experience was a short flu-like event; fever for 2-3 days. Did not lose smell / taste. No lasting effects of any kind. Apparently, my wife was also infected but had no symptoms then or later. So, while the FDA / CDC / NIH / blah blah blah will not say that survivors continue to have immunity, I think the fact that I have been around many infected people over the last 16 months speaks for itself. Spent 6 hours in a car with my wife's sister (who we later learned was infected at the time) and did not get re-infected ourselves. I'm quite sure we are immune. I'm 64, wife is 60.

And, I don't give any weight to the "asymptomatic spreader" message. The common flu and common cold can also be acquired from someone without symptoms; and, yes, the common flu can and does KILL every year. I never got the annual flu shot and never ever got the flu. I also don't remember anyone ever pressuring me to get a flu shot or trying to guilt me into doing so "for others"; or calling me selfish for not getting a flu shot. It's just nonsense. Look around at all the people who got the shot and still think they are at risk from this thing - they wear masks while alone in the car; they insist others get the shot when they themselves are theoretically protected; they worry about wearing a mask (themselves & others); they won't get on a cruise ship unless every plays by their rules; they are indoctrinated. I refuse to be indoctrinated.

To paraphrase one of my favorite people: "If you are vaccinated, act like it".

[golfing eagles]

It says a lot about someone when all they can say about your post is that it was “stupid” hahhahaha

No, I don't think it says anything about her. It MAY speak volumes for the post:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

It says a lot about someone when all they can say about your post is that it was “stupid” hahhahaha

Sometimes, less is more...

[golfing eagles]

Well, keep in mind that after the human trials (on most of the US population and much of the world) are finished, you can always decide to get the shot if that's what you want. However, if you get the shot now and find out later (when the trials are done) that there is a major downside, you can't "un-get" it.
.
By the way, it has been determined now that I had COVID-19 in February 2020 (anti-body test). My experience was a short flu-like event; fever for 2-3 days. Did not lose smell / taste. No lasting effects of any kind. Apparently, my wife was also infected but had no symptoms then or later. So, while the FDA / CDC / NIH / blah blah blah will not say that survivors continue to have immunity, I think the fact that I have been around many infected people over the last 16 months speaks for itself. Spent 6 hours in a car with my wife's sister (who we later learned was infected at the time) and did not get re-infected ourselves. I'm quite sure we are immune. I'm 64, wife is 60.

And, I don't give any weight to the "asymptomatic spreader" message. The common flu and common cold can also be acquired from someone without symptoms; and, yes, the common flu can and does KILL every year. I never got the annual flu shot and never ever got the flu. I also don't remember anyone ever pressuring me to get a flu shot or trying to guilt me into doing so "for others"; or calling me selfish for not getting a flu shot. It's just nonsense. Look around at all the people who got the shot and still think they are at risk from this thing - they wear masks while alone in the car; they insist others get the shot when they themselves are theoretically protected; they worry about wearing a mask (themselves & others); they won't get on a cruise ship unless every plays by their rules; they are indoctrinated. I refuse to be indoctrinated.

To paraphrase one of my favorite people: "If you are vaccinated, act like it".

I think the fact that the FDA/CDC/NIH/blah blah blah decides based on well designed medical studies involving thousands of people and that you have decided, for yourself, based on a "study" of two that you are immune SPEAKS FOR ITSELF

I do , however, agree that getting vaccinated and then driving around in your car alone with a mask is idiotic. Of course, it was just as idiotic before that person got vaccinated as well.

[Becca9800]

I'm respected? Well, shame on you! ;)

But yes, administrators/billing depts are most definitely trying to find ways to maximize charges, including changing diagnoses...

I've seen it in person... And I've seen the arguments that ensued...

Maximizing payments is a must and you know it. Changing a diagnosis is absolutely fine IF the medical record documentation supports that change. And that's the bottom line. Do you know how frequently the coder has to chase down a doc that picked the wrong diagnosis in the electronic system? Or left out a supported dx? Picking the wrong dx is so easy to do too but it's the hospital, and just as often, the patient that loses because of a wrong key stroke entry. Now I would never say there isn't greed out there, all you need to do for proof of that is take a gander at the OIG's Fraud&Abuse Enforcement page. Those providers are not only greedy, they're incredibly arrogant to think they can scam the system and keep getting away with it. But it's not generally hospital administrators or billing clerks being prosecuted and convicted of fraud, can you guess which profession is the usual culprit? Have a look, it's actually quite interesting Enforcement Actions | Office of Inspector General | Government Oversight | U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/?type=criminal-and-civil-actions)

[oneclickplus]

I think the fact that the FDA/CDC/NIH/blah blah blah decides based on well designed medical studies involving thousands of people and that you have decided, for yourself, based on a "study" of two that you are immune SPEAKS FOR ITSELF

I do , however, agree that getting vaccinated and then driving around in your car alone with a mask is idiotic. Of course, it was just as idiotic before that person got vaccinated as well.

Perhaps. But, I am not stating that my "study of two" should be evidence for anyone to follow suit. I am justifying my own decision to forego the shot. I consider myself protected enough and further consider the shot to be a higher risk than not getting it. The person I replied to was "on the fence" and I gave him/her my take on the matter. And I was explaining that you can't go back in time and not get it later. That's all. Studies or not, I'm not obligated to base my decisions to get the shot on how well it will protect others.

[JMintzer]

Maximizing payments is a must and you know it. Changing a diagnosis is absolutely fine IF the medical record documentation supports that change. And that's the bottom line. Do you know how frequently the coder has to chase down a doc that picked the wrong diagnosis in the electronic system? Or left out a supported dx? Picking the wrong dx is so easy to do too but it's the hospital, and just as often, the patient that loses because of a wrong key stroke entry. Now I would never say there isn't greed out there, all you need to do for proof of that is take a gander at the OIG's Fraud&Abuse Enforcement page. Those providers are not only greedy, they're incredibly arrogant to think they can scam the system and keep getting away with it. But it's not generally hospital administrators or billing clerks being prosecuted and convicted of fraud, can you guess which profession is the usual culprit? Have a look, it's actually quite interesting Enforcement Actions | Office of Inspector General | Government Oversight | U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/?type=criminal-and-civil-actions)

Yeah, they go for the low hanging fruit...

The docs are always on the hook... For everything...

And as I said before, I've served on multiple hospital committees. I've seen, first hand, the arguments over "correct" diagnoses...

[golfing eagles]

Maximizing payments is a must and you know it. Changing a diagnosis is absolutely fine IF the medical record documentation supports that change. And that's the bottom line. Do you know how frequently the coder has to chase down a doc that picked the wrong diagnosis in the electronic system? Or left out a supported dx? Picking the wrong dx is so easy to do too but it's the hospital, and just as often, the patient that loses because of a wrong key stroke entry. Now I would never say there isn't greed out there, all you need to do for proof of that is take a gander at the OIG's Fraud&Abuse Enforcement page. Those providers are not only greedy, they're incredibly arrogant to think they can scam the system and keep getting away with it. But it's not generally hospital administrators or billing clerks being prosecuted and convicted of fraud, can you guess which profession is the usual culprit? Have a look, it's actually quite interesting Enforcement Actions | Office of Inspector General | Government Oversight | U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/?type=criminal-and-civil-actions)

I realize you must have worked in medical billing/coding at a hospital and therefore tend to blame all coding irregularities on the physicians. However, with a 20% premium on the DRG cohort at stake, if you don't think the word went out to medical staffs at every hospital in the country to add COVID as a diagnosis, even if only suspected, then you are living in Fantasyland.

[golfing eagles]

Perhaps. But, I am not stating that my "study of two" should be evidence for anyone to follow suit. I am justifying my own decision to forego the shot. I consider myself protected enough and further consider the shot to be a higher risk than not getting it. The person I replied to was "on the fence" and I gave him/her my take on the matter. And I was explaining that you can't go back in time and not get it later. That's all. Studies or not, I'm not obligated to base my decisions to get the shot on how well it will protect others.

Actually, the word you are looking for is "rationalizing". I wouldn't recommend getting the vaccine for others----you should do it for yourself. And you are right---with any new vaccine/drug/treatment there is a SMALL risk of the unknown----but right now the risk of COVID is greater. I probably had COVID early this year. My fiancee, her sister and husband were staying with us and they all became symptomatic and tested positive. I didn't have any symptoms, and didn't get tested because a positive result wouldn't have changed anything I was doing, and I was going to get the vaccine regardless (and I did)

PS: love the picture, and there is some truth in it

[JMintzer]

Going back to the over diagnosis of covid deaths, please view this short video...

Dr. Ngozi Ezike | How COVID Deaths are Classified - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Tw9Ci2PZKZg)

[golfing eagles]

Yeah, they go for the low hanging fruit...

The docs are always on the hook... For everything...

And as I said before, I've served on multiple hospital committees. I've seen, first hand, the arguments over "correct" diagnoses...

Might I ask in what capacity????

[drstevens]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

Go to The COVID Blog - Official blog of COVID Legal USA. Vaccines are the leading cause of coincidences. Stay Vigilant. (https://thecovidblog.com/) Some don't do so well!

[Becca9800]

I realize you must have worked in medical billing/coding at a hospital and therefore tend to blame all coding irregularities on the physicians. However, with a 20% premium on the DRG cohort at stake, if you don't think the word went out to medical staffs at every hospital in the country to add COVID as a diagnosis, even if only suspected, then you are living in Fantasyland.

No, not records/coding. Risk & Compliance. We weren't talking about all coding irregularities though, we were discussing specifically a covid dx. Exaggerations only muddy the waters. I'm sure word did go out to the medical staff reminding them to include the dx when supported, 20% x the several hundred covid + patients treated at my little 300 bed hospital is a freaking significant amount of money. But if you're asking me to believe that in general, administrators expected the medical staff to add a covid dx, deserved or not, to realize that 20%, afraid I'll have to pass. But let's just say that did happen, it is entirely up to the physician to "obey". It is entirely up to the physician to enter documentation to support that covid dx. If the dx is undeserved but the support is documented anyhow, that's fraud on behalf of the documenting physician. If the dx is added but not supported by documentation it won't be billed for. And here I thought this was a respectful conversation, I'm sorry you felt the need to attempt to belittle me with your "Fantasyland" comment. Too bad.

[JMintzer]

Might I ask in what capacity????

As one of the docs on staff at the hospital...

I was on the OR Committee, Credentials Committee, Dept of Surgery Committee, (I'm sure I'm missing one...) over my 33+ year tenure...

Now, I just tend to my own practice and leave all of that to the younger docs... I'm preparing my exit strategy, so I can move to TV full time...

[golfing eagles]

No, not records/coding. Risk & Compliance. We weren't talking about all coding irregularities though, we were discussing specifically a covid dx. Exaggerations only muddy the waters. I'm sure word did go out to the medical staff reminding them to include the dx when supported, 20% x the several hundred covid + patients treated at my little 300 bed hospital is a freaking significant amount of money. But if you're asking me to believe that in general, administrators expected the medical staff to add a covid dx, deserved or not, to realize that 20%, afraid I'll have to pass. But let's just say that did happen, it is entirely up to the physician to "obey". It is entirely up to the physician to enter documentation to support that covid dx. If the dx is undeserved but the support is documented anyhow, that's fraud on behalf of the documenting physician. If the dx is added but not supported by documentation it won't be billed for. And here I thought this was a respectful conversation, I'm sorry you felt the need to attempt to belittle me with your "Fantasyland" comment. Too bad.

Not "belittling" you at all. It was a conditional statement (preceded by if). And we agreed, that the word went out, if only as a reminder, not to encourage fraud. Very respectful intent

[golfing eagles]

As one of the docs on staff at the hospital...

I was on the OR Committee, Credentials Committee, Dept of Surgery Committee, (I'm sure I'm missing one...) over my 33+ year tenure...

Now, I just tend to my own practice and leave all of that to the younger docs... I'm preparing my exit strategy, so I can move to TV full time...

So a surgeon, ? subspecialty.
And yes, hospital committees can drive you nuts

I "exited" 6 years ago, I thought I would miss it, but quality of life full time in TV is so much better, especially in the era of 7 digit ICDM-10 codes, nitpicking documentation and dealing with families that come in with google print outs that I don't miss it at all

[JMintzer]

So a surgeon, ? subspecialty.
And yes, hospital committees can drive you nuts

I "exited" 6 years ago, I thought I would miss it, but quality of life full time in TV is so much better, especially in the era of 7 digit ICDM-10 codes, nitpicking documentation and dealing with families that come in with google print outs that I don't miss it at all

Podiatric Medicine & Surgery...

And I cannot wait "not to miss it"... ;) Currently trying to sell my practice... 3 years left on my lease... I hope to practice another 12-18 months... But if whomever buys me out wants me to leave sooner, I'll be gone in a flash!

Although I have had a FL license since 1984, I doubt I'll ever use it, since I'd only want to work part time and my malpractice insurance would eat up anything I'd earn...

[Nick B]

Please close this thread. I truly feel sorry for you all that just can’t seem move on - you will always find some scary article somewhere on the internet - that you will use to perpetuate your need to keep people in some kind of fear and despair ….. I hope history will be able to shed light on what causes people like you to have this desire to get some sort of personal gratification out of fear-mongering. We have always had threats to deal with and we will have threats in the future to address and conquer ….. get over it!!!! This is life. We live and we die (yes - we die - there is no way to avoid it). I think living in fear with a huge dark cloud over your head and forcing your dark cloud on others is so much more detrimental to society than Covid ever was…..

I pray people get up this morning and be thankful for what they have and what they have had….. focus on the beauty that we can enjoy each day - cherish the memories of days that have passed.
How can you be happy without dear leader only HE ALONE could have solved this.

[Altavia]

So two question for the experts here:

Do any other viral infections result in similar long term effects?

Is there any evidence of similar effects from the vaccine?

[jimjamuser]

Maybe.

Here is the byline from the article cited:

By Dennis Thompson
HealthDay Reporter

Hardly a bastion of medical science, even though the article also appeared on WebMD.

Also note the so called symptoms are fatigue and brain fog
I just have to wonder how many developed "fatigue and brain fog" when asked to give up their "pay for staying home" and return to work.

Yes, I know that is somewhat cynical, but I can't imagine it doesn't happen.

Then again, it may be 100% correct----we just don't know, and therefore the subject will be a target for extreme ideas.
Many people enjoy going to work and NEED the socialization there afforded. And MANY have career goals that they want to continue without interruption. Plus most people are honest and can be trusted and therefore believed.

[Topspinmo]

This is for you JMintzer. In another thread that was CLOSED, you asked for a link siting the percentage of Covid survivors who develop long haul side effects. Here is an article...........

A Third of COVID Survivors Have Long-Haul Symptoms (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210219/a-third-of-covid-survivors-have-long-haul-symptoms#1)

I would imagine 1/3 or more had long term medical problems long before Covid? I’m guessing Covid didn’t remedy any and probably made symptoms worse?

[coffeebean]

My neighbor is still experiencing effects from the virus.
Not sure of the definition of "long-term"...............but he is coming up on a year.
He was the picture of good health & fitness.
:pray:

I would consider one year "long term". Life long would be more of a chronic condition, I would imagine. I have not heard that life long term YET but that just may in our future when they learn more about the ravaging of the virus on the body.

[coffeebean]

Please close this thread. I truly feel sorry for you all that just can’t seem move on - you will always find some scary article somewhere on the internet - that you will use to perpetuate your need to keep people in some kind of fear and despair ….. I hope history will be able to shed light on what causes people like you to have this desire to get some sort of personal gratification out of fear-mongering. We have always had threats to deal with and we will have threats in the future to address and conquer ….. get over it!!!! This is life. We live and we die (yes - we die - there is no way to avoid it). I think living in fear with a huge dark cloud over your head and forcing your dark cloud on others is so much more detrimental to society than Covid ever was…..

I pray people get up this morning and be thankful for what they have and what they have had….. focus on the beauty that we can enjoy each day - cherish the memories of days that have passed.
I assume you are directing this response to the original poster who is me. You may want to include a quote when directing comments to someone so there is no question about it.

Fear and despair will disappear once a person is vaccinated, (in most cases anyway if you truly believe in the science). Believe me, I'm living proof. It is a good idea for people to be aware of what this virus is capable of. Burying your head in the sand is not the way to live in this world today. If you don't want to broaden your horizons, then please. do not click on the threads that discuss a pandemic that we are currently combating as a nation.

I enjoy the discussion and listening to all sorts of different POVs. Some I find amusing and many others I research to see just how valid those views may be. I find this time in our lives to be extremely compelling. If you prefer not to discuss the subject, by all means, do not click on the threads. Your choice.....to click or not to click.

[coffeebean]

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.

Way to go GE!!!!!!!

[coffeebean]

No. It's a description of the pharmacokinetics of the vaccine (AVD, metabolism, excretion, tissue penetration, etc.). It does not address anything clinical at all. Looks like it might be information that Pfizer pharmacists and molecular geneticists put out as part of their bid to get full FDA approval (although I doubt the radioimmunoflourescence study in 6 rats will pass the committee

I just LOVE to listen to you "talk" although I have to look up some of those words you use.

[jimjamuser]

An article that only uses a minute percentage of actual covid infected people is not a reliable source for the information the article proposes. Were they asked if they experienced these "long term" issues before they got covid? I would also want to know who funds this magazine. Lastly it has only been a year or so since the first Americans got covid and that is hardly long term as many who get pneumonia without covid experience issue up to a year or more. Many hip, knee, should replacement recipients also have proven long term effects.

I never just get one side of things and expect it to be the gods honest truth. In this day and age a person must question any result based on such a small sampling...unless, of course, they only care to hear one side of an issue.

It would seem the only reason for your post is to convince those who haven't had the vaccine do so because you just care so much as to what they could, might, may experience without the vaccine. I don't believe that is the actual reason.
And it seems like YOUR reason for the post is to convince others to REFRAIN from getting the vaccine. And I feel that reason is pure propaganda! It also seems to me like the sample size was appropriate for an EARLY study. People are NOT getting the vaccine in a high enough percentage to achieve herd immunity. So, you have won with your propaganda, you can give it a rest. The US has been sufficiently weakened and the PANDEMIC will be with us for years. Hope the anti-vaxxers are happy - they have set American Democracy and Science back toward the medieval times. I know V.Putin IS happy!

[Joe V.]

And it seems like YOUR reason for the post is to convince others to REFRAIN from getting the vaccine. And I feel that reason is pure propaganda! It also seems to me like the sample size was appropriate for an EARLY study. People are NOT getting the vaccine in a high enough percentage to achieve herd immunity. So, you have won with your propaganda, you can give it a rest. The US has been sufficiently weakened and the PANDEMIC will be with us for years. Hope the anti-vaxxers are happy - they have set American Democracy and Science back toward the medieval times. I know V.Putin IS happy!

So says the Immortal Chicken Little.

[coffeebean]

And we also have teens having heart problems AFTER getting the shot (not a vaccine). So, it is reasonable for someone to make the decision to steer clear of the shot.

Yes, I've heard of those side effects for the younger ones. Thank goodness, it is reported that those effects are short lived so really no long term harm, YET.

[coffeebean]

Perhaps. But, I am not stating that my "study of two" should be evidence for anyone to follow suit. I am justifying my own decision to forego the shot. I consider myself protected enough and further consider the shot to be a higher risk than not getting it. The person I replied to was "on the fence" and I gave him/her my take on the matter. And I was explaining that you can't go back in time and not get it later. That's all. Studies or not, I'm not obligated to base my decisions to get the shot on how well it will protect others.
LOVE the meme.

[coffeebean]

Go to The COVID Blog - Official blog of COVID Legal USA. Vaccines are the leading cause of coincidences. Stay Vigilant. (https://thecovidblog.com/) Some don't do so well!

Holy cow. Some SERIOUS **** about these vaccines. I certainly will not ever get vaccinated. Oh wait, too late. I'm vaccinated already. DAMN!!!!

[jimjamuser]

And again, maybe

There is no way to quantify fatigue, brain fog and loss of taste/smell. It is 100% subjective. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means we don't know

It's sort of like the guy in a car accident complaining of back pain and can't work. His x-rays, CT and MRI are all negative, the neurologist finds nothing objective, neither does the orthopedist. So now he goes to 2 places----a chiropractor (yuk) and Dan Newlin while he applies for SSDI. He goes to court for disability with testimony from the chiropractor (again yuk), conveniently not presenting the x rays, CTs, MRIs, nor the opinion of the orthopedist or neurologist as evidence. The judge then grants him disability, and the rest of us are supporting him for the rest of his life (or until age 65).
The last one of these I got drawn into I later saw working on the roof of a building hauling 75 pound bundles of shingles up a 20 foot ladder.

So the moral of the story is we still don't know. But from experience, I always look at these cases where there is substantial secondary gain with a jaded eye.
Why worry so much about the FEW LITTLE GUYS, the LITTLE GUYS taking advantage of the SYSTEM? WHITE collar CRIME is so much more harmful to society than BLUE collar crime. Look at Jeff Bezos and ALL the others recently exposed. That costs America tons more. And Chiropractors fill a need between nurses and Doctors, which may be filled by medical A.I. in the future. There IS a need because many Doctors become very arrogant and egotistic and HMOs and have stacked the deck to drive prices for their services upward. Doctors do NOT have enough time for each individual patient. Doctors have THEMSELVES created the NEED for Chiropractors. They are the ones to blame.

[coffeebean]

I would imagine 1/3 or more had long term medical problems long before Covid? I’m guessing Covid didn’t remedy any and probably made symptoms worse?

I have no doubt that is true but I'm reading about younger folks who were asymptomatic for Covid that are now having long haul effects from the disease. They claim to have no comorbidities which is too bad for these folks to have to deal with side effects from a disease they didn't even know they had.

I don't have any idea what percentage of people are dealing with these long haul effects. IMHO, one person is too many and I'm sure we have heard THAT expression too many times to count.

What I have also read is that there are some people with long haul Covid side effects who have seen relief after vaccination with the mRNA vaccines. That is very hopeful for people who suffer from these side effects.

[jimjamuser]

Since none of this is conclusive, I consider the jury still out. I know over a dozen folks that have survived Covid. I know of two that did not. Those two definitely have "brain fog and fatigue." It's permanent. Of the dozen in my family that have survived Covid (easier than a common cold) none of them have reported any lasting symptoms or side effects. Of course, they are all younger than 50 yo.
I will NOT encourage my grandchildren or any school age children to get the Covid vaccination. Why? Because even though I got mine (for my spouse) I do not put much confidence in a vaccination where folks do not believe in it enough to quit wearing their masks or associate with those that are maskless, after they have been vaccinated. The second reason for not wishing the children of school age to get the Covid vaccination, is that the virus is very seldom fatal. As a matter of fact, it is less fatal than the Flu to children. Pretty sure of that statement, but I am not an expert. As with anything else posted on here, I have my opinion. How can anyone in good confidence encourage children to get the vaccination when they adamantly state that they will not take a cruise on a cruiseline that will allow unvaccinated to board the ship. If you do not have faith in your vaccination, how can you push children to get it? I keep hearing on here over and over how you are afraid of the maskless, unvaccinated and believe they should be forced to get the vaccination. If you are that scared then why did you get vaccinated? DO you really think that you will catch it?
I don't know about any long term after or lingering effects that covid may present, but if true then it has to be man made and someone needs to pay dearly for causing it. Even if it came from China or in our own backyard. It wouldn't be the first time a major scare came from our Gov. Remember Ft Detrick, MD and the anthrax scare?
CV causes enlarged hearts and holes in the lungs for young children and adults. That is pretty WELL KNOWN!

[jimjamuser]

I didn't realize I broke any rules but thank you for informing me. I'm ready to go to the naughty room.
There IS always a "teacher's pet" who wants to tattle on their peers.

[jimjamuser]

I had COVID (mild symptoms) and I also got the vaccine. I didn't get the vaccine because I was "afraid" of COVID, I got it because I felt all my friends who were vaccinated and never had COVID would be more comfortable with me if I got the vaccine.

Let me also say I had a close family member who died from COVID.

After getting the vaccine, if I thought I could get COVID, be hospitalized, and potentially die from COVID, why would I get the vaccine???

I don't care if people choose not to get the vaccine. It's their choice and their risk. Because I was vaccinated, I don't think an unvaccinated person is of any risk to me.

I don't understand why vaccinated people are so insistent about people getting the vaccine.
It is VERY understandable IF someone just takes the time to study it a LITTLE bit.

[Byte1]

Podiatric Medicine & Surgery...

And I cannot wait "not to miss it"... ;) Currently trying to sell my practice... 3 years left on my lease... I hope to practice another 12-18 months... But if whomever buys me out wants me to leave sooner, I'll be gone in a flash!

Although I have had a FL license since 1984, I doubt I'll ever use it, since I'd only want to work part time and my malpractice insurance would eat up anything I'd earn...

Thought about working for the VA hospital or Clinic? Bet you don't need Malpractice Insurance, but I am just guessing.

[PugMom]

Why are you rehashing a thread that was closed? The Mods had a reason for it. I think you are just trying to stir the pot again(as always) I'm done arguing about the "vaccine" and the dreaded "covid". It's not getting anyone, especially me, to change their minds.

probably because there's umpteenth number of threads already started. with all due respect, this is oversaturation of a topic covered endlessly

[Byte1]

CV causes enlarged hearts and holes in the lungs for young children and adults. That is pretty WELL KNOWN!

Not totally disagreeing with you , BUT how do you know this information if the virus has only been around for such a short time? How would children develop "holes in the heart" so fast? I am not an expert, so I would be very interested in how you determined this major piece of information.
Sounds like an "Urban Legend" to me.

[jimjamuser]

I'm fatigued alright - of these seemingly endless inane debates about the vaccine. It used to be don't discuss politics or religion. In The Villages, it expanded to debating electric vs. gas golf carts, and snowbirds. Now it's pro vs. con masks/vaccines. I have yet to find anyone who has changed their minds. So is this not just another exercise in futility, and a waste of spending one's remaining retirement years?
Logic would DICTATE that the debates are ENDLESS because people WANT to debate them. And the whole subject of CV is changing (for example the NEW delta variant. Did you know about that ? I am sure many people on TOTV did NOT! NOT being aware of the details of CV can KILL you (it is NOT irradicated). It is a world health problem. The quality of Yamaha vehicles IS not. CV is a part of Medical Science and Science is constantly changing.

[jimjamuser]

Please close this thread. I truly feel sorry for you all that just can’t seem move on - you will always find some scary article somewhere on the internet - that you will use to perpetuate your need to keep people in some kind of fear and despair ….. I hope history will be able to shed light on what causes people like you to have this desire to get some sort of personal gratification out of fear-mongering. We have always had threats to deal with and we will have threats in the future to address and conquer ….. get over it!!!! This is life. We live and we die (yes - we die - there is no way to avoid it). I think living in fear with a huge dark cloud over your head and forcing your dark cloud on others is so much more detrimental to society than Covid ever was…..

I pray people get up this morning and be thankful for what they have and what they have had….. focus on the beauty that we can enjoy each day - cherish the memories of days that have passed.
Worst post I have ever seen!

[Joe V.]

Worst post I have ever seen!

Now that is Funny! You being the judge of bad posts!

[jimjamuser]

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.
I CAN agree with what you are saying there. Credentials give validity to statements and opinions.

[jimjamuser]

It would be interesting to know the deaths and adverse effects of the “vaccine” as well. I understand that some of that information is being censored, so I’m not sure we can get the true answers. It may be to early determine any long term effects too?
Not being censored! That's dark media propaganda talk probably originated by Russian bots.

[JMintzer]

Fear and despair will disappear once a person is vaccinated, (in most cases anyway if you truly believe in the science)..

Horse Hockey!

How many people on this very thread are still terrified of OTHER people who, for whatever reason, have not received the vaccine?

Even though it's been pointed out, time and time again, that once you are vaccinated, your chance of contracting covid is miniscule...

[JMintzer]

Why worry so much about the FEW LITTLE GUYS, the LITTLE GUYS taking advantage of the SYSTEM? WHITE collar CRIME is so much more harmful to society than BLUE collar crime. Look at Jeff Bezos and ALL the others recently exposed. That costs America tons more. And Chiropractors fill a need between nurses and Doctors, which may be filled by medical A.I. in the future. There IS a need because many Doctors become very arrogant and egotistic and HMOs and have stacked the deck to drive prices for their services upward. Doctors do NOT have enough time for each individual patient. Doctors have THEMSELVES created the NEED for Chiropractors. They are the ones to blame.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/mFA2mRBIpm1t6T9Aks/200.gif

[JMintzer]

CV causes enlarged hearts and holes in the lungs for young children and adults. That is pretty WELL KNOWN!

Please cite your source for this "information"...

[JMintzer]

Thought about working for the VA hospital or Clinic? Bet you don't need Malpractice Insurance, but I am just guessing.

Part time? With plenty of vacation time? Doubtful...

[JMintzer]

It is VERY understandable IF someone just takes the time to study it a LITTLE bit.

Yet you insist on arguing with those who have studied it A LOT...

[JMintzer]

Not totally disagreeing with you , BUT how do you know this information if the virus has only been around for such a short time? How would children develop "holes in the heart" so fast? I am not an expert, so I would be very interested in how you determined this major piece of information.
Sounds like an "Urban Legend" to me.

He studied it "a LITTLE BIT"... AKA, he read it in one, non peer reviewed study, on some random web page...

[JMintzer]

Logic would DICTATE that the debates are ENDLESS because people WANT to debate them. And the whole subject of CV is changing (for example the NEW delta variant. Did you know about that ? I am sure many people on TOTV did NOT! NOT being aware of the details of CV can KILL you (it is NOT irradicated). It is a world health problem. The quality of Yamaha vehicles IS not. CV is a part of Medical Science and Science is constantly changing.

And recent studies show that the current vaccines are just as effective against the DELTA variant...

Did you know that?

[golfing eagles]

Why worry so much about the FEW LITTLE GUYS, the LITTLE GUYS taking advantage of the SYSTEM? WHITE collar CRIME is so much more harmful to society than BLUE collar crime. Look at Jeff Bezos and ALL the others recently exposed. That costs America tons more. And Chiropractors fill a need between nurses and Doctors, which may be filled by medical A.I. in the future. There IS a need because many Doctors become very arrogant and egotistic and HMOs and have stacked the deck to drive prices for their services upward. Doctors do NOT have enough time for each individual patient. Doctors have THEMSELVES created the NEED for Chiropractors. They are the ones to blame.

That whole rant is so far off base that I'm not even going to bother to respond. Chiropractors fill a need between doctors and nurses?????? You didn't seriously state that? Oops, I responded (a little bit)

[golfing eagles]

CV causes enlarged hearts and holes in the lungs for young children and adults. That is pretty WELL KNOWN!

Holes in the lungs????? Just what is a "hole in the lung"???? And that is "well known"??? In what universe?

[golfing eagles]

Many people enjoy going to work and NEED the socialization there afforded. And MANY have career goals that they want to continue without interruption. Plus most people are honest and can be trusted and therefore believed.

I'm sure that's true of the population in general. However, when you get down to the patients that are complaining of subjective symptoms and "can't work", you are down to a few legitimate cases and a whole bunch who are looking for secondary gain. I've been through this game a thousand times.

[Eg_cruz]

Really?---let's see-----

I am retired professor of Internal Medicine at the University of New York, Chief of Staff at a 350 bed hospital, former Chairman of both the Pharmacy and Therapeutics Committee and the Quality Assurance Committee. Oh yes, and education wise I have a BS in microbiology with published papers and received high honors in both virology and epidemiology in medical school.

And your credentials are.......wait for it......you have a family member who claims to have some symptoms.

Now do you want to continue the debate over "who doesn't know what they are talking about"? At this point you should just cry "uncle" because you'll lose badly

And btw, I never said it couldn't happen----the operative word was MAYBE, and I never referred to a specific person. Perhaps you should brush up on reading comprehension before trying to engage in a medical debate with an expert.
Well then you should know better. I don’t have a family member claiming I HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER DEALING WITH IT. I don’t care what you think as a retired dr. I have been at every doctor appointment them with. I have watch them go through this.
So you MAY THINK YOU KNOW……..I KNOW AND I DON’T need a medical degree to know what my family is going.

I sure you think this is a natural virus too and that it was not release on purpose.
FYI look at Dr. Fauci‘s cadential‘s what does that do for anybody????? Nothing

So maybe just maybe you don’t know what you think you know.

[golfing eagles]

Well then you should know better. I don’t have a family member claiming I HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER DEALING WITH IT. I don’t care what you think as a retired dr. I have been at every doctor appointment them with. I have watch them go through this.
So you MAY THINK YOU KNOW……..I KNOW AND I DON’T need a medical degree to know what my family is going.

I sure you think this is a natural virus too and that it was not release on purpose.
FYI look at Dr. Fauci‘s cadential‘s what does that do for anybody????? Nothing

So maybe just maybe you don’t know what you think you know.

But you know better than I (and Fauci) because you went "to doctor's appointments"
I feel bad for you and your family member, but at this point you're just making a fool of yourself

[jimjamuser]

And we also have teens having heart problems AFTER getting the shot (not a vaccine). So, it is reasonable for someone to make the decision to steer clear of the shot.
I don't think that is resonable.

[jimjamuser]

Well, keep in mind that after the human trials (on most of the US population and much of the world) are finished, you can always decide to get the shot if that's what you want. However, if you get the shot now and find out later (when the trials are done) that there is a major downside, you can't "un-get" it.
.
By the way, it has been determined now that I had COVID-19 in February 2020 (anti-body test). My experience was a short flu-like event; fever for 2-3 days. Did not lose smell / taste. No lasting effects of any kind. Apparently, my wife was also infected but had no symptoms then or later. So, while the FDA / CDC / NIH / blah blah blah will not say that survivors continue to have immunity, I think the fact that I have been around many infected people over the last 16 months speaks for itself. Spent 6 hours in a car with my wife's sister (who we later learned was infected at the time) and did not get re-infected ourselves. I'm quite sure we are immune. I'm 64, wife is 60.

And, I don't give any weight to the "asymptomatic spreader" message. The common flu and common cold can also be acquired from someone without symptoms; and, yes, the common flu can and does KILL every year. I never got the annual flu shot and never ever got the flu. I also don't remember anyone ever pressuring me to get a flu shot or trying to guilt me into doing so "for others"; or calling me selfish for not getting a flu shot. It's just nonsense. Look around at all the people who got the shot and still think they are at risk from this thing - they wear masks while alone in the car; they insist others get the shot when they themselves are theoretically protected; they worry about wearing a mask (themselves & others); they won't get on a cruise ship unless every plays by their rules; they are indoctrinated. I refuse to be indoctrinated.

To paraphrase one of my favorite people: "If you are vaccinated, act like it".
The Flu has NOT killed over 600,000 people in a year.

[jimjamuser]

Not totally disagreeing with you , BUT how do you know this information if the virus has only been around for such a short time? How would children develop "holes in the heart" so fast? I am not an expert, so I would be very interested in how you determined this major piece of information.
Sounds like an "Urban Legend" to me.
Holes in the lungs. Hearts are enlarged. You misread.

[golfing eagles]

Holes in the lungs. Hearts are enlarged. You misread.

He may have misread, but I certainly didn't. I'd still like to know what "a hole in the lung" is, how it relates to COVID, and how it is "well known"

[jimjamuser]

And recent studies show that the current vaccines are just as effective against the DELTA variant...

Did you know that?
That would contradict the fact that I saw on normal TV that the Delta variant is MORE contagious than the prime US variant and affects children more. I seem to remember hearing that our vaccines are 60% effective against Delta. And what you said contradicts the fact that Great Britain is considering suspending their "open everything up" strategy to one of moderate quarantine.

[jimjamuser]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/mFA2mRBIpm1t6T9Aks/200.gif
Those videos that you show are CHILDISH!

[jimjamuser]

Yet you insist on arguing with those who have studied it A LOT...
I was saying that THEY needed to study it more closely, NOT myself. Take your time and read more closely and not just to confirm your predetermined opinion.

[jimjamuser]

That whole rant is so far off base that I'm not even going to bother to respond. Chiropractors fill a need between doctors and nurses?????? You didn't seriously state that? Oops, I responded (a little bit)
It is economically obvious. If chiropractors did NOT fill a need no one would pay them and they would cease to exist. I could accuse you of elitism but that would be TOO EASY. And I don't want to go all middle school with insults. PLEASE! Chiropractors fill a void between nurses and doctors for many MILLIONS of people through the years. I doubt that they would insult you, as you did them?

[golfing eagles]

It is economically obvious. If chiropractors did NOT fill a need no one would pay them and they would cease to exist. I could accuse you of elitism but that would be TOO EASY. And I don't want to go all middle school with insults. PLEASE! Chiropractors fill a void between nurses and doctors for many MILLIONS of people through the years. I doubt that they would insult you, as you did them?

OK, it must be time for medical organization education class.

IF there is a void between nurses and doctors, it is filled by nurse practitioners and physician assistants.

The only void chiropractors fill are between the first and second sounds out of a duck's mouth

And I'm still waiting to find out what "a hole in the lung" is

[jimjamuser]

Holes in the lungs????? Just what is a "hole in the lung"???? And that is "well known"??? In what universe?
A perforation........does that seem more impressive than "holes". I am just relaying information that I heard on normal, well-trusted by-normal-people TV. You look it up - you have more access to Medical journals than I do. I did NOT say that I was a lung EXPERT.

[jimjamuser]

I'm sure that's true of the population in general. However, when you get down to the patients that are complaining of subjective symptoms and "can't work", you are down to a few legitimate cases and a whole bunch who are looking for secondary gain. I've been through this game a thousand times.
And you know so much more than anyone else!

[golfing eagles]

A perforation........does that seem more impressive than "holes". I am just relaying information that I heard on normal, well-trusted by-normal-people TV. You look it up - you have more access to Medical journals than I do. I did NOT say that I was a lung EXPERT.

Well, that much is obvious:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

"normal, well-trusted by-normal-people TV"-----I have no idea where to find that

Perhaps they were talking about pneumothoraces caused by a rupture of a small bleb, but I haven't seen where that could be caused by COVID. Now, if a COVID victim required mechanical ventilation, that would be a common cause of spontaneous pneumothorax. As far as the heart goes, there are a few reports of post-COVID cardiomyopathies, mostly in children

PS: I only use the big words with you to force you to look them up:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[golfing eagles]

And you know so much more than anyone else!

As far as medical knowledge goes, not "anyone" else, just most people, and that certainly includes you. How many patients claiming a disability have you seen? OK, wait for it..........that would be zero.

[golfing eagles]

Thanks but NO thanks. I will concede your obvious medical terminology superiority - if you will CONCEDE that I have NO reason to LIE, when I say that what I said about hearts and lungs - I got from conventional, well-respected TV channels. It was on more than once.

I never thought you were "lying" I'm sure you heard it somewhere (unless you were the original researcher, which somehow I doubt:1rotfl:)

The heart part makes a little sense, for a limited number of mostly children.
The "hole in the lung" makes no sense whatsoever, so whatever "normal" TV station watched by "normal" people you got that from needs to review/edit their content much better.

PS: I'm willing to bet real money that the TV stations and commentators you consider "normal" are people I would consider left wingnuts.

[golfing eagles]

Well, you ARE leading in insults. But a middle school kid would be beating you like a drum.

I very much doubt either of those statements are true:1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

[JMintzer]

The Flu has NOT killed over 600,000 people in a year.

Neither has Covid...

[JMintzer]

I know about physician's assistants - And Historically I know that they did not exist in great numbers around 1950. That's when chiropractors were the ONLY ones covering that LARGE in-between area. Doctors of that time did NOT want their cozy high paying jobs AND POWER / POWER threatened by nurses and physical therapists that were 90% as competent as the average Doctor. Doctors GRUDGINGLY came to accept nurse practitioners and women Doctors also!

You're confusing Chiropractors with Osteopaths? Bwahahaha!

[coffeebean]

OK, it must be time for medical organization education class.

IF there is a void between nurses and doctors, it is filled by nurse practitioners and physician assistants.

The only void chiropractors fill are between the first and second sounds out of a duck's mouth

And I'm still waiting to find out what "a hole in the lung" is

GE....could this be what Jim is referring to. If this is not peer reviewed, my apologies........

Another possible COVID complication: 'Punctured lung' | CIDRAP (https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/09/another-possible-covid-complication-punctured-lung)